Marriage Secrets from a Divorce Lawyer with James Sexton

like when your partner says you know I want to feel more fulfilled what does that mean like do you mean you want to have a date night once a week or do you mean you want to surf more often because I don't know if I just take you out to dinner drive you the beach like what what is that cinder gasps specifically I think people need to know how to talk to each other and in fact why not have a conversation about how you have conversations but why not talk about listen when there's a problem in the marriage how are we gonna talk to each other welcome back and warden to the school of greatest podcast we have Jim Sexton in the house good to see emergency list they've decided about this you've got a book called if you're in my office it's already too late a divorce lawyers guide to stay together you've been doing the voice divorce law work for two decades right yeah about that a little less than that almost two decades and working with couples who have gone through every challenge under the Sun right I've been through it all yeah from sleeping with the nanny to financial cause issues to what you said carpooling though who's who's doing what carpooling and what day is too little stuff the big stuff and everything in between you seen it yeah and you're not a trained therapist no but you've probably had years of work in your experience being a therapist for a lot of people yeah assuming right yeah you know I I see people that their worst and I think I see them in a way that people still lie to their therapists you know but they don't necessarily lie to their divorce lawyer because there's a tremendous incentive not to lie to me you know lying to your doctor in line to your lawyer or like the two people you shouldn't lie to our only job is to protect you our only job is to make sure that whether your goals are legitimate or illegitimate our you know our jobs to protect you yeah so you know I think I get to see a very very candid I know more about their finances than their accountant I know more about their personal life than their you know then their therapist you know III know we're all the skeletons are you guys why do they tell more to you than their therapist cuz they have to I mean for me to protect them proper little the first time I'm once the laws under their jurisdiction they're like okay I have to tell you well I can lie a little bit little small lies here in there another way yeah I mean I think other professionals you just don't feel the automatic sense of you're here to protect me I mean I I am there to protect them in the Rost realest way you know I really am like a shield to them you know and I I say that's my job I'm a shield in a weapon you know and and I'm a shield in the sense that my job is to protect my clients interests and and I'm a weapon in the sense that I'm there to advocate you know what it is that they need me to fight for what it is that they need me to advance you know and I represent people who've been cheated on and I represent people who cheat and I represent people who their spouse has a drug or alcohol problem and I represent people who have drug and alcohol problems so I've spent so much time with every variety of of the the person in a couple that that's how the book happened it really turned into you know look I'm not a therapist I'm not a philosopher who's just a pining on what I think people do I'm just telling you what people do I'm just telling you what I see actually happened in actual marriages this isn't theoretical marriages this is actual marriages yeah the real mess yeah yeah the real trainwreck now you've worked with over a thousand clients and easily easily have there been any clients that you've worked with that we're going to get a divorce and then they decided not to after working with you and then they came back together for whatever reason and if so what was that reason it happens pretty rarely and and that's why I actually called the book if you're in my office it's already too late I'd be 1% of people I would say less well I would say even less I would say in a 20-year career it's happened maybe three times where someone by the time they were in my office it's so far along and the wound has so festered that heartless it's hard to turn it around I mean look that that's the truth you know when you look at people it's a whole lot easier it is to maintain your weight than to get real fat and try to lose it all right so it's the same thing with marriages you know there's this you know single raindrops responsible for the flood you know there's these little bear arguments these little issues that people have and they just build and build and build and build to the point where once that dam breaks by the time you're in my office it's done it's it's and it's rare that people can come back from you yeah you were talking about before we started that marriages of technology yeah now what does that mean what is the toilet in your marriage I think anything that's designed to solve a problem is a technology right so I mean this mug is is a technology you know that and what is the problem to which this technology is a solution well it's the problem if I can't hold hot tea in my hand yeah it's a problem of I I don't want to use and and kudos to you for using non disposable ones that's zero waste yeah yeah and the truth is is that it's designed to solve a problem so the the next question is who has that problem well you know anyone wants to drink a beverage has that problem you know and the next question and I think the most important question is what problems does it unintentionally create okay so every technology is a Faustian bargain in the sense that it solves a problem and it creates a problem I gotta clean it you gotta use the water exactly you have to now you have to worry find stylish ones I mean you went you know classic claim but you gotta find ones with witty sayings on them and it can break and now my favorite mug was broken and how am I gonna replace it I mean again some of these problems are silly little problems in exchange for really great benefits but most people never ask themselves the question the technology of marriage which is a man-made technology a human-made technology we got together and said hey let's create this legal contract governed by a state right governed by the state let's come up with something that let's turn a lover into a relative you know let's find a way to turn this into a legally binding contract and people just go and sign up for this technology and they spend more time thinking about what cake they should serve at the ceremony then thinking about what did I just sign on for and why did I sign on and what are some problems it might create for me in exchange for the things that it solves for me and by the way will it even solve the problem that I'm trying to have it solve and one of the things I talk about in the book is you know if you got married to solve the problem of being alone no no you might be alone still in your marriage like you solve if you got married because you want to have sex you want to have more sex you know being married is no more a guarantee of getting sex than living near a restaurant as a guarantee of getting fed you know it doesn't mean just because you're in it you're gonna receive the benefit that you think you're gonna receive of it and and how many couples before they get married really sit down and say hey we're gonna sign up for this technology what do you want to get from it what should I be wanting to get from it how will it change over the years that just doesn't happen you know so if that doesn't happen how are we then surprised that it doesn't work fifty three percent of the time fifty three percent is now that horse rate and the divorce rate then more probably still don't work with our in it exactly so so that's that that's the part and it's funny that you go there because that's where I go so 53 percent is already terrifying right if I said you there's a 53% chance when you walk out of this room you get hit in the head with a bowling ball yeah I'm not gonna go out or you're gonna wear a helmet at a minute a minimum you're gonna wear how many probably wouldn't go out now let's look at that number the 53 percent and then divorce that's the US or global us us us home okay now think about what percent stay together for the kids that should get divorced but he can't stand each other they stay together that they stay together cuz they don't upset the kids or they don't want to give away their stuff I would say another 75 percent stay together even though they want to get divorced okay so let's say 20 so it's one another 25 percent of area people let's say I mean it's so so now we've got a technology with a failure rate over seventy five percent okay so now what percentage stay together for religious reasons probably a declining percentage over the years but let's say more oh five percent that might be the same as kids and you know might be that yes so if I say there's a technology with a failure rate of 80 percent Toyota had a point oh-o-oh one percent nice save on their 0.001% break failure on one of their vehicles and they recalled all the vehicles yeah so if I said you a percent of technology you we still use it yes not only we use it we celebrate its use yeah it's part of our culture and we're shamed if we're not married oh absolutely well because it's it's considered a sign that you're not mature and forward-thinking hmm and we're shame or divorced right but now we're being celebrated to get out of marriages if it's not what we want or if we're not getting what we want that's that's a trend that's definitely starting to change so so I think we've have divorced him or whatever you know right well I think it's self-actualization you know became more of a thing and after the 1970s you know people started thinking about like you know themselves and their happiness it wasn't just about the unit anymore it was about you know finding yourself then ya became more acceptable to be self-interested I'm not gonna say selfish because not all self-interested being selfish but it became more acceptable to say I'm not happy you know I married this person when I was 20 yeah and now I'm 40 and shockingly I'm not the same person at 40 that I was when I was 20 and now I'm a different person and it's no longer a good fit you know I mean the analogy I tell people is is if I said to you right now you can at any car you want what car would you have well I just got a Tesla I haven't tested to be yeah actually don't worry about cars I want to be car but I got one for tax recently cool and I had a 1991 I still have a 1991 Cadillac Eldorado okay they're like 60,000 miles on okay just high over everywhere I don't want to use the car yeah you can buy any car you want if you listen I like the Tesla I like to test okay because it's fuel-efficient it's you know right which had a big pragmatic guy you ask nice to know you ask most people that question they're gonna go sorry Aurora Lamborghini I want a Maserati oh yeah yeah now if I then said to them okay you get one car whatever car you pick that's the car you're gonna have for the rest of your life suddenly a Lamborghini is a terrible idea I can't put a car seat in it for and you can't you know when you're 80 years old get into that car right so if you were only allowed that one car you got to find a car that not only makes sense when you're 20 and 30 and 40 but when you're 70 yeah and when you have kids and when the kids have gone away so again like a minivan that might make sense when you got three kids when the kids go off to college that minivan no longer makes sense well marriage is a technology where you're signing on with one person and saying for the rest of my life I'm gonna be with this person and that's a very challenging thing but here's the thing I actually think people give more thought to the car they're buying than they do really to the technology of marriage and what about it specifically they like or don't like hmm what training or information do you think do you wish every couple would go through before signing up for the technology of marriage it's a great question I I think you know if you buy a house you get a lead paint disclosure you get a HUD disclosure that talks about the loan you get all kinds of disclosures right you sign a will there's all these pages that explain to you in great detail you know what's happening when you sign that well you get married you get a pamphlet yeah you don't even get like a one-page brochure this is why this yeah this is the most legally significant thing other than dying that you will ever do legally and you don't get any information about what just happens so the first thing I would say is adding everybody who's gonna get married should have an hour consultation with a divorce lawyer absolutely so they should go into your office yeah but for a different reason different reason before elastically yes they should come in proactively and learn about what's about to happen legally what's about to happen to my rights you know what's about to change in terms of how I own property the financial obligations I'll have to this person I would also say one of the best things they could do is talk to someone candidly who's been married for an extended period of time you know that's not something we do we're not encouraged to be honest about our relationships we're not I mean one of the things you talk about masks you masks of masculinity that I loved is about particularly men but I think it's true for women too we we don't share candidly what's really going on in our lives where we were wearing a very curated society where you put up on social media the best picture and the best vacation photos and the best of everything we're doing and we don't share with each other the challenges we don't share with each other even even really relevant information like when I meet a couple who's been together for 20 years you know I want to know I mean I love the story oh how did you meet you know how many times a week to have sex mmm who star who knew she ate sit do you ask the she is you always do the same stuff he's been together for 20 years and you know what each other like or like do you try like do you like call inaudible every once in a while I'll just do some wacky thing like what is it like what is it really like the day-to-day of your relationship and so many people I mean you've been in relationships I've been in relationships slowly people just don't talk honestly even when I'm with my guy friends you know do we really talk honestly about the day-to-day of our relationships the way we talk to the women in our lives like the nickname they have for us or the nickname we have for them again it's private to some degree information but if we could share that stuff a little more we'd have a lot more accurate of a perception of where our relationship stands in the scheme of things and how we're doing you know because I really think there's this perception that people have of you know I will only having sex this many times a week it's like well okay is that a lot is that too little like you have nothing to compare it right you know so in marriage there's no way to know if you're doing well in it hmm because you can't say well you know we have fights every now and then well okay people have fights every now and then but if you have a fight every week that might be a lot but how would you know what would you compare it to right so I would say one of the best things you could do to people who are considering getting married is put them in a room with people who've been good at that technology who've managed to not only endure marriage but endure it is still like it thrive right thrive right and still say you know what I'd sign on for this again yeah like in a room full of people I'd still pick this person yeah that's cool you know and then how many of those opportunities we really get to talk to people that way about the relation on many yeah and maybe also talk to someone who's been through divorce and asked them what didn't work and why didn't it work and where did you look out down yeah exactly see one of the principles that inspired me to write the book was the idea that you know again I hate using car metaphors cuz I'm not a car head but it's the best analogy I can think of in a sense that if when you bought a car you did every bit of preventative maintenance that a mechanic told you to do change the oil every every through my so whatever yeah yeah my dentist you know and she assists me by the time your tooth hurts figured you're screwed prevent it yeah loss every day not after you have all this stuff she tells you to do when you go see her your teeth are gonna do well so it's for me who knows more about how a car breaks down than a mechanic right so I I know what I know people are in my office and I get a very candid view of them and I get to talk to them and I have been very blessed that people trust me with tremendously personal information and so what I wanted to do with that information is just find a way to leverage that into some kind of wisdom yeah that people could use and say you know what just don't do what they did when we were talking about titles for the book you know it was a hilarious escapade because you know one of the first ideas was what we'll call it everyone's screwing everyone because it was about how people just abused each other in the process of divorce and how they're really taking advantage of each other and then we said well no that's too pessimistic and we said well you know maybe we could you know just call it you know vows and talk about like the promises that people make but it's not really the promises that are interesting it's the way that people go in with good intentions with those promises and it just can't keep it together yeah so I really think that that you know for me the best thing we can do with anybody is is to yeah show them a model of success right and show them a model of failure you know and look you've said it a million times on this show that you learn just as much from your successes as your failures you might learn more from your failures there are some degrees so we don't have those role models we don't have a relationship role model you know and you know one of the things you talked about masking masculinity when you're talking about Neil Strauss and his marriage and how he says look it was my stuff it wasn't like I said oh I don't like marriage because I don't like this about it I don't like that it would force me to do this and force me to do that and really what it was is he just didn't want to look at his own stuff yeah and then he felt like to have a good marriage he'd have to look at his own stuff which is absolutely true yeah you know and terrifying most of what my book is about is about yeah you got to look at your stuff yeah you wanna if you want to be successful in this technology you got to look at it own it and share it with this person and be aware and be honest with the person about who you are and what you know what you want what you don't want now you were you were married for how long was married for 12 years 12 years yeah got divorced yeah got divorced while you were a divorce yeah while I was a divorce attack so you're hearing these stories every day and going through your marriage but you know my yeah I remember my marriage I think benefited from my experiences in divorces you know the cues of what not to do or well yeah that'll work but it it was hurt by the fact that I love what I do for a living and was so consumed with it that I worked constantly um you know my ex-wife was one of my dearest friends to this day she's remarried to an amazing guy who's a great stepdad to my sons who are now older they're both in college but I'm very blessed I mean I've had an experience of divorce where I I'm still close friends with her I'm friends with her husband's you know and I I'm very lucky for that because I look at it like there's a lot of people I love that I wouldn't want to be married to sure and she's one of them she's someone I love she's someone I appreciate who I think is just an amazing person but we don't have the chemist the exact ingredients that you need to be successful in marriage because we met when we were 17 mm-hmm and what we wanted when we were 17 18 19 20 - and we got married 24 when we had kids when we turned around and we're in our 30s we went you know wheel should we have that much in common and so either I'm gonna have to stop being who I actually am like I love to travel you don't love to travel you love you know I mean from silly things you love shabby chic furniture and I like very zen aesthetic yeah you know like you love this kind of movie and I love this kind of movie and you reach a point where you kind of go we'll do a white-knuckle it now because we don't want to quit something that isn't working or do we say you know what let's call this let's call this and let's find someone who feeds us in the right way and and see if or just be alone for the right reasons you know and I'm very blessed that the person who I was married to was mature enough to see it the same way and to have that painful but really wonderful conversation that so few people can have and that is to say look this this thing was successful you know we we both are leaving this better people than we were when we came into it and we're leaving it with two kids that are the exact chemistry of the two of us and they're made up of the two of us but we're going to kind of take our different paths now and let's still love each other let's still respect each other not just one coupling yeah all right absolutely I mean that's the term that's been handed to it but you know the truth is is I think people been doing it for years you just don't hear about it it's not that my divorce is the least interesting thing about me really yes yeah like I've I said do you like you know tell me ten things about yourself the fact that the divorce wouldn't make a list because the fact that I tried to marry someone and stay with them forever and it didn't work out isn't that interesting it's not that you need you know what you hear about in the people who talk about their divorces incessantly are people who were wounded by them yeah and and now they've been victimized by their divorce and so it becomes a tremendous part of their identity they hold on to it for a while they talk a lot in and and so you know there that the silent you know there's a huge number of people that had divorces like mine where the marriage just ended it ended in a friendly fashion they continue to co-parent successfully together and they both live their lives not this pain and resentment for years and no one I have to tell you as a divorce lawyers a practicing divorce lawyer a huge I would say more than 50% of the people that I represent it's that kind of transaction it really is that it's just two people that their time is done and now we just have to figure out how to divide up the things they have and work out the schedules with the kids that's good to know you're set yeah I would say at least fifty percent is good but but the thing is the other 50% are louder are so much more interesting thanks so much it's like cuz really who wants to hear about like how I talk to my ex-wife yesterday she's moving to Rochester soon like where do you see oh that's her life it's this Rahman the Rain Man rule of a bad at me she set my car on fire like way more interesting oh man do you feel like you know marriage I hear this all the time it's something that's not gonna be easy right there's gonna be challenges there's gonna be fights or arguments and there should be some things that you're not going to agree well sure if you ground everything awesome but it doesn't sound like yeah there's many marriages that are always perfect it's always smooth after 10 20 30 years there's gonna be some conflict so does that mean in your opinion that we should just pick you know what let's just throw in the towel when it gets too challenging or you know it's getting challenging that's when we got to dive in deeper and I come together as a marriage because we've signed up for this that's it's a great question I would say the phone.i I think one of the most common things people will say to you about marriage is your marriage is hard marriage is hard I don't know that that's true I I think if you consider paying attention hard mmm then marriage is hard right if you don't consider paying attention hard then I don't think marriage has to be hard I think that it's again not to use the metaphor again but you know Lou wait is harder than maintaining your way and I really think you look you're gonna have challenges you're not necessarily enough fights in a challenges life is going to throw challenges in your way illness adversity career issues you know day to day miscommunications with each other if you're not paying attention those things get huge and then the big big things happen so people come in and they go I'm getting divorced is he sleeping with his secretary you are that's a great reason to get divorced and that's a legit thing he's not he's sleeping with his secretary because there's something wrong in the marriage yeah that you know and you know if you don't want to look at that because you have some culpability in that and it's easier to just go up this harlot came and took them away and it's a lot easier to say that but the truth is you know you stopped paying attention you know and this is the question I find myself when I have a minute you know with a client who I've been some miles with mm-hmm and we're sitting outside of the you know the the court room waiting for the case to be called and I have enough of a rapport with them and we've been enough of a distance together that I feel like I can be candid with them I'll say to them was there a moment where you realized your marriage was over mmm what was that moment you know and you would be amazed at the insight if people think about that question that they give to you I had a woman who said to me and it was a to me a very powerful example I discussed a little bit the book she said there was a kind of granola that she liked and and you could only get it at like a certain store like a Whole Foods or something that and her husband used to always buy it he's always by whenever she was running loud she would just open the cabinet there'd be another bag of it there and she loved that because he didn't say like oh and look honey I bought your granola like I get credit for that you know like he just would do it he just saw that this was something that he was paying attention he just saw that there was this little thing it was this little kindness that he showed her that let her know she was important to him he was still kind of trying to woo her without being obvious about it he was still paying attention and she said then one day she just ran out of the granola and it wasn't there so she thought oh well maybe he's like busy and he just didn't notice so she kind of left the bag out and you know sure enough he still didn't replace the granola and she said she had a tangible memory was about a year before the actual divorce but she said she had a tangible memory she thought okay this is over you know this thing is over now and I think that that's the thing that's kind of if you boiled my book down one of the things I say to people is there's this thing in every relationship some little thing that you had that you did for your partner or some little thing that you just had to tell them that at some point you just stopped telling them yeah you know I don't know if it's it's just in the morning saying like you're so pretty when she walks by or if it's her saying to you like you know I love you you strong arms or whatever it might be like there's just those little things like we we just want someone cheering for us we just want why do we why do we get together we want connection we just want connection like there's no other reason to get married other than wanting connection so those little disconnections that's yeah do you know when that's its death by a thousand paper cuts you know and that's the challenge for me is this is is that's what people need to sort of find their way to connect yeah what are you thinking the most important things to find out about your spouse before getting married see I'm super pragmatic about that I think you're gonna be living with somebody so I think you should you should know some bare bones things like I want to know can you go to bed with a dish in the sink still or are you somebody that like needs to have the dishes then what time do you go to bed what time do you like to wake up in the morning are you a loud morning person or quiet morning person do you you know how do you feel like what how do you feel about credit card debt how do you feel about very pragmatic question how many times a week do you think you should have sex when you're married for you to be satisfied you know these are the kinds of questions like if I'm signing up to live with another human being to share my finances with them and to only have sex with them for the rest of my life these are important questions I mean for really why would you buy a car and oh I don't know how many miles it is or I don't know how many doors it has like these are basic or Western on when I try to try it like just ask some fundamental honest questions and and and look there's nothing wrong with asking those questions there's nothing because we've convinced people that this idea of like a soulmate right you should just meet someone instant chemistry and if you don't have instant chemistry and perfection you're doing it wrong and so you're discouraged from asking pragmatic practical questions like listen how many times a week do you think you should have sex or how many times a week because if you had those conversations not only are you going to go into the relationship with your eyes open but it's gonna allow you to actually serve the needs of your spouse a little bit better like if I know what you went for he wants this right like now I know um you know it's a sad Verte eyes you know this is what you said you wanted and I know am i meeting that standard am I not meeting that standard and if I'm not we can have a conversation about hey listen just so you know this is why I'm not that way anymore you know because very often if you talk to women about you know why did they stop sleeping with their husband their husband's out why did you stop being interesting your wife they'll tell you the reason you know they'll say like oh yeah he just stops being complimentary to me and now he just wants like it only hugs me when he wants to have sex like if he hugged me more often I would probably feel more romantic towards if you'd had that conversation you wouldn't get to the île this this war that no one wins you know what you're not hugging me anymore so now I'm not gonna sleep with you well now I don't feel affectionate towards you because you're not sleeping with me right oh well now I feel even more upset because you're not sleeping with me well now I'm going to start sleeping with somebody else and now we're just off to the races and meanwhile we had two people that signed on for the same task that now have completely lost the plot hmm you know and that to me and one of the things I love about divorce law is in this culture where we're so full of it you know we're so we don't want to admit when we screwed up we don't to admit when we're lost were terrified to admit when we're lost to have you know one meant to get divorced you can't pretend you're in this beautifully raw situation anyone who is in my office they did not mean to be there and and there's something to me really beautiful about that because it's this opportunity to just say you know what like I yeah we tried to do this thing and it fell apart and so to me that's that can be beautiful it's an opportunity for growth you know the barns burned down now I can see the moon you know and I really feel like that's the the the thing that if people could have that level of honesty and candor and realness in marriage they wouldn't end up in yes when you when a couple is starting to lose connection what do you think they can do to get reconnected I think that I mean the core is communication just start talking you know just start I talk about ways to have that conversation you know very pragmatic practical like I didn't want to write a book that was filled with conclusions of lofty so you need to reconnect with your partner what the hell does that mean you know like when your partner says you know I want to feel more fulfilled what does that mean like do you mean you want to have a date night once a week or do you mean you want to surf more often because I don't know if I should take you out to dinner Drive you the beach like what what is that cinder yeah specifically and so you know I I think people need to know how to talk to each other and in fact why not have a conversation about how you have conversations like why not talk about listen when there's a problem in the marriage how are we gonna talk to each other about it and one of the things there's a chapter in there called hit Send now and it's about just this very simple idea and that is send an email to your partner you know hits the reason I called it hit Send now is that I always thought it's kind of funny when you sit you hit Send on an email you can't hit like unsent like it's just you hit it and you're like oh wow okay it's out there and I've had emails around like you know I write by email and I'm like okay there it is like I can't take it back now you know and it's kind of exciting but it's also kind of terrifying and I think the idea of hit Send now is to is to say like listen when some little things going on in the marriage that you don't you know that this could be an issue someday but you don't want to you know write an email write an email to the person and say like hey listen when we were sitting around last night and we were and you kind of made that little comment about my sister like I don't know if you meant it or not but like it kind of hurt you know it made me feel really good because I was thought you liked my sister and so I don't know I just want to let you know you know and and see unlike a conversation if we have that in a conversation you immediately are gonna be defensive well wait a minute no no I bet and by the way you may not be ready to have that conversation right might have other things going on in your brain you might so an email is great because it gives a person a chance to digest it it gives them a chance to sort of think it through now easier yeah right not be immediately defense and what I even say to people is make the subject heading hit Send now because that way the person goes oh it's gonna be one of these emails okay like brace myself for it like be ready that this is what this says and you can time when you send it send it when you know you're not gonna see them you're gonna be out of the blast radius and you're gonna give them a chance to digest it you know send it to them in the morning when you know they're sharp or at night when you know they're calm whatever you know hopefully you know your partner well enough to know like what's the time to talk to them before they go to the gym or after they get back from the gym you know if you want to ask me something ask after I get back from Brazilian jiu-jitsu class because I'm like calm as a Hindu cow yeah you know but if you see me on a Friday morning when I've got court like this is not the time to talk to me about relationship issues yeah so I I would say that the best thing people can do is communicate in a very clear way with each other that's gonna be that's gonna solve 90% of the problems you have and most of this book is just about ways to communicate with each other and ways to to you know own your stuff and help your partner own their stuff because I still believe that the relationships maybe not marriage but marriage at its best is about having someone who sees your blind spots yeah you know we're better together as human beings we're better in connection we're better when we have the benefit of each other's perspective and when we help each other see the things that we just can't see about ourselves yeah that's true what would you say are the top three reasons people get divorced is it infidelity or is it financial is it something else yeah I mean the top three big reasons again you know little things add up and cause these things but yeah absolutely infidelity number one finances would be number two and number three would be I would just call it a trician it would just be you know that relationships just they just burn up what people just don't care anymore you know the opposite of love isn't hate it's contempt right its indifference indifference I mean hate is a passionate emotion but if you hate me you have you feel strongly about if you just don't care anymore right like you know there's a line in Casablanca the movie where you know that one of the characters says to Humphrey Bogart's character he says boy you really hate me any system you know I suppose if I gave you any thought I probably would and I found in my when I saw that film I thought oh that's the most cutting insult because when you really just don't care like that's the opposite of love because love is about I'm paying attention I want to please you your pleasure gives me pleasure your joy gives me joy your sadness becomes my burden you know and it becomes something I want to alleviate so indifference that sense of I don't care what you're doing I don't care if you're happy I don't care if you're sad I don't care that's the thing and and that's where people land sometimes you know as they just land in that place where they used to care and then in this escalating war of why I shouldn't have to do that well I shouldn't have to do this well I shouldn't have to do that well then I shouldn't have to do that and now you got two people that are just great you guys one good job not if you guys have anything for each other anymore great job great job you're living with a person who owes you nothing and you owe them nothing except what the state tells you that you owe each other Wow and what you never meant to be there you never meant to be there yeah Wow what's the best way to handle financial stress in your opinion financial stress yeah don't get into it hey no the best way to handle financial stress again I think candor yes candor I'll be communicating it before you get married absolutely think so you don't get into it absolutely again what's the best way to lose weight don't get that yeah you know I mean the truth is is try to find a way to prevent getting in that place but look once you've got financial stress so there are financial stresses you can't prevent you know you lose your job your company lays off 500 people and you're wondering you got a medical challenge it happens okay so how do you deal with it you with candor with courage you know with honesty with you know with fearlessness you know with bluntness I mean one of the things like I said I loved about your book and that's why I said I think the two books together would actually be a great combination if you know a guy who's getting married you buy me real good buy my book and I think you just drop the statistics down on these guys because the truth is is is you know knowing your stuff and being fearless enough to say this is what it is that's that's where the magic is yeah I know yeah I saw one of the chapters says yours mine and ours the financial system that works best yeah I think a lot of people have their own way of how they want to run their money right right they're like managing it their way spending things they want to spend it on something like getting in debt others don't like getting in debt so how do you find our way well I mean you got to keep in my marriage was created as a technology right when was when women were property essentially and it was created in medieval context I mean it was created essentially to - you know preserve wealth it was created to preserve lands right royal families would marry each other and rich families would marry each other to preserve land you know and to bring clans together you know the game of Thrones mentality of alright I'm marrying this person not because I love them but because this makes sense this family makes sense this this unique union of the Clinch our visions yeah okay so that's the origin of marriage at some point you know 1920's 1930's it started turning into some romantic notion right some notion of well I should have something move 'yes yeah you know it's entirely possible I mean entertainment media is very much how people perceive you know advertising is the dream life of a culture you know like we started to convince people that you know marriage should be more about love it's you more about romance and and then you know people became consumed by that model why it's a compelling model it's a wonderful model I mean there's nothing more exciting than the initial days of a relationship you know somebody once said that there's nothing more exciting than getting married and nothing harder than being married you know and so getting married superfund core ship those early days of a relationship they're fantastic they're fantastic there's so many people you could have a really wonderful early relationship with but how many people did you have 10 20 30 40 years with so you know when you think about the fact that marriage was put together when women couldn't own property when women were essentially sold I mean you buy oh you'd you trade a cow for the guy's daughter Wow is what it was there's there's still cultures where trade five livestock for my daughter and their trade you know so now we're in a society where we've kept the same technology that was rooted in that but we're in a place where men and women are both in the workforce men and women both have obviously independent autonomous value and they're and they're equals at least in a theoretical sense right even though there's still some inequality and patriarchy and things people have to figure out and deal with the truth is is that men and women have equality of opportunity ideally so now what makes sense you're no longer bringing together this overreaching man who's in charge and goes to work and this woman who's going to stay home and tend to the hearth you know and the children you know we have two intelligent autonomous you know man and woman and I didn't get into it in the book but men and men and women and women I mean we have marriage equality now we fought really hard for it so that you know a gay couples and lesbian couples could have the privilege of this failing technology you know and so we said why should why should we have all the misery everybody sign up right now and I've secretly believed that there were probably you know gay and lesbian individuals who'd been with their partners for long periods of time and secretly voted against marriage equality so they wouldn't have to have the conversation yeah because if you think about it when they were when they weren't able to they could be like love to marry you would all the great the government's letting us look oh okay well I guess we have to have that conversation now so I really do think that that from a financial place yours mine and ours the basic idea of it is just to say look have some joint finances have some sense of will have this account that joint money goes into will pay for joint expenses from it but then have some autonomy have your own individual accounts how have something that you can use to when you want to buy the other person a birthday present I mean if you have a joint account and I buy you a birthday present from that I bought myself a birthday so you know let a person have a little autonomy financially but but have a joint account so there's still some sense of shared purpose financially yeah I like that why do you what do you think is the real reason people cheat on each other is it these little things that have added up over time that people aren't paying attention to I mean I think at its core it's the human need for connection and then I think Esther Perel and you know there's a lot of pressure she's incredible incredible III love her work and I love the way she you know her personally don't and I I've secretly said that everyone should do a panel with her would be the greatest thing in the world yeah future of marriage you know we really because she has such incredible perspective and she comes at it from this mental health perspective and she comes at it from a really like a hacker mentality I don't think she realizes it but she is like she wants to her marriage like she's thinking about like well why don't we do it different like what instead of you know she's got that Silicon Valley approach which is don't look at how we did it look at it and go we'll wait what if we just ripped the technology apart and started from nothing what could I do with it you know and I love that about her and I love mating in captivity I think was like it was just a genius piece of work and again I think if people understood those concepts before they got married or even thought about them you'd already be a step ahead of the game because identifying the problem is a huge piece of the problem as then people never identified yeah but I would say that that you know I totally forgot the questions about love about love I mean I mean about cheating and she yes so I think I think cheating is a function of losing that connection yeah and I also think it's about a human need for physical intimacy physical attention physical attraction I am NOT someone who believes you know I think John Gray for example the great work is super intelligent with his ideas of you know men are from Mars Women are from Venus and you know men are like a microwave and women are like a slow cooker you know and then it takes us different sexually times to heat up and so I think some of that was tied to some sexual mores yeah there's some biochemistry there but I think the truth is is that really becoming permitted to own their sexuality we've become a more sex-positive culture a lot of that misogyny that was motivating women to not be sexual beings you know it started to fall apart I don't know if it was Kim Cattrall and and Sex in the City and Samantha it was it was just this this this long-term thing but I think men and women are very sexual I see men who cheat I see women who cheat I see men have been cheated on I see women have been cheated on and I can tell you men don't cheat more than women women don't jump more than men a spare so vets who I mean women Chiefs just as women she just as much they in my experience do it more intelligently usually than men but yeah they they're not as impulsive or impetuous about but it really you know infidelity happens because people have a need a sexual need you know and they have a need and sexes you know I think they are they attributed to Oscar well but I don't think it's a fair I don't think it actually came from him I don't think they know who said it but they said that everything everything in life is about sex except for sex which is about power and I think the truth of sex is that sex is a way we share our affection for each other it's a way that we share our attraction to another person and when that starts to fall away in a relationship then people cheat the connection area the question is is how do you maintain that connection because that's why people cheat people people who have happy functional active sex lives with their partner and they're really truly fulfilled by it and they maintain intimacy you know intimacy is defined as the ability to be yourself with another person so it's not about sex enema sees you know intimacy sexes is ideally tied to enema see but you know you can have great intimacy Xand not have a sexual relationship with so when you and I as friends can have tremendous intimacy I can be myself with you you can be yourself with me but sex is a tremendous way for people to build intimacy and sustain animus see you know there people say you know sex is the glue you know it's the glue that holds it to get this what is it it's the thing that separates a roommate yeah yeah you know it prevents it from just because if you just want to have a roommate have a roommate you know it's the sex is the pillar of marriage you know and so how do we maintain sexual connection with someone satisfying sexual connection again it's not about how do I stay married easy don't get divorced yeah you know how do I stay happily married that's a much harder question how do I keep having sex with the same person not a hard question to answer just keep having sex with them how do I have satisfying sex with that person that's gonna fill my needs and it's gonna prevent me from wanting to go have sex with other people that's a more interesting question hmm well how do you do that after ten I can tell you how you don't do it how you don't do it is by not sharing with the person what you really want there's a chapter in the book called go without or go elsewhere where I basically say that if you don't share everything you're allowed to have sex with you're an idiot because you're either gonna go without it then are you gonna go elsewhere to get resent it yeah yeah and resent it or you're gonna have to go elsewhere and then potentially ruin the relationship you know I talked about you know a client I had who was in defeat you know in a sexual way and it's not my thing you know I'm not a foot guy I mean like to me feet and sex it's like I use my feet to get to bed to have other than that if he don't get into it but this was this guy's thing he loved feet and in a really like intense way like this was sexually was a fetish for him and you know you and I laugh at it but the truth is it's actually a pretty generic thing apparently like google it it's a pretty general people liked it and you know what attraction is so hard to understand desire is so hard to understand why do any of us like what we like it's the reason why I've just never been homophobic because until I can articulate to you why I like what I like how could I possibly judge you for the things that you like you know so the truth is that the you know sexual desire you know is so complex you know and so hard to understand you know that that we we don't realize that there's a tremendous value and just identifying what you want and sharing it with your partner and I say in the book don't just in the middle of sex like if you you know if you want your partner to talk dirty you know there's a very common thing is people like to talk dirty or to have someone talk dirty to them all right maybe watch too much porn and that's why we feel that way or maybe in romantic films that people you know speak sexually to each other and that's why whatever is there maybe there's just something in us that likes the sound of our partners voice but we're like afraid to say something you know we're afraid or whatever really you're embarrassed you don't want the person to be like wait what what the hell you know you don't want that to happen so you hold it in you don't say anything about it who are you serving there no maybe this is their fantasy too you know you have to be but but again what I what I say in the book is that people have great intentions and caused tremendous problems in their their sexual relationships so the following example is the best one I can think of so you're you're with this sexual partner for you know initially and initially arriving puns of sex it's great sex it's all new and it's exciting and what starts to happen you start to learn what the other one likes right you start to figure out okay she likes this and he likes this and I do this first and then that warms up for this and this is great and that's part of the fun of early days is figuring out you know what the other person likes well then what starts to happen then you go hey listen let's play the greatest hits right I know that this they love and this they kind of could care less so I'm just gonna do the greatest hits I'm just gonna and you have good intentions I mean you really you're trying to do the right thing here they're gonna do your greatest it's you're gonna do their greatest hits and everybody's gonna be so excited in much shorter period of time and we'll be done before Joe Oliver comes on you know whatever it is you know so then what happens six months a year two years of just doing the greatest thing aboard right I mean I get an album I like and I love this song about that I saw play it a hundred times I did when when you know zero to 100 by Drake came around I parlors to a thousand times right okay so many times that then when I played it again I'm like oh my god yeah so the truth is people with really good intentions create a sex life that creates discontent in their sex life so then what happens though that's that's the key moment what do you do well if you're smart you say hey you know what lick we're kind of always doing the same things let's let's change it up let's do something for you hit Send now you send that email you saying you know maybe I'd like to again don't just call an audible in the middle of sex because the person's gonna start to go like well where did that come from like we've been doing the greatest hits and all of a sudden you did this random thing you know buddies think about well I mean the example of talking dirty which i think is a pretty epic wa tiss simple kind of an example don't just start like straight up pouring dialogue in your partners here if you've been silent all these years maybe say one or two little things and see what the reaction is gauge the reaction you touch them in some body part you haven't before see what the reaction is and then have a conversation after about all did you like that when we did that or what did you know I kind of threw that in there would you think of that you know that's the kind of communication that I think prevents people from losing the plot being stagnant even with good intentions and losing their sexual desire and attraction of the person that they're with yeah because that is at the core I have to tell you if so many people come in my office they tell you when we stop sleeping together six-mile we stop sleeping any other three years ago we haven't had sex in five you know how many my daughters were I had somebody come into my office no joke last month so they hadn't had sex with their partner in eight years what eight your roommate your yes your you're a miserable roommate at that but no who's even a roommate there's no expectation of sex like you don't want to see your roommate go like well we haven't had sex in a while you're not supposed to have sex with your roommate you're supposed to have sex with with your sexual partner he's supposed to have sex with your spouse and by the way if we haven't had sex in eight years can you get mad when I have sex with someone else that seems wildly unfair you know so that's the trick but but but you know the answer that is yes you do have a right to be upset at that if we've never had a conversation about why we're not having sex you know and not figured that out because a lot of times it's the again that was little thing look anyone who's been in a relationship knows that you you sit with your partner and you're having a conversation about you know the best way to get onto this highway from this particular place and it turns into a slight disagreement and ten minutes later it's you know I never liked your mother it's like wait what how did you just get there but everyone is in relationship knows you the fight was about one thing and then it turned into some other much bigger deeper things so it's the same thing when it comes down Fidel you know there was one conversation happening in the relationship about sex and then all of a sudden you turn around and you're completely in a different place and you lost the plot yeah I was at a circus Olay show over the weekend in Vegas and it was Zumanity which is like the sexual like lovey you know stretch will one sure and the host of the show the drag queen was asking questions to people who were looked like couples right like how long you been married having been married are you married are you together and the drag queen asked one of the the couples was like how long have you guys been married and he said we're we're not married but we're life partners and she goes well what does that mean right I mean and then the guy take the mic and he said we're not allowing the government or the state to dictate our relationship I thought that was interesting perspective yeah you know what are all the things that the government or the state actually dictates when you sign a contract your marriage yeah and you know the funny thing is isn't it amazing that you live in a culture where marriage is everywhere and you don't know the answer that no no and I'm not saying you specific I yeah nobody knows the answer that like I know probably 20 engaged people who don't know the answer to that you know whoever discovered water it wasn't a fish you know and and what happens in these situations is people are so surrounded by marriage as a technology that they don't ever stop and ask the question like wait a minute what by the way what legally happens when I get married so I mean what legally happens when you get married is a you opt out of the title system so you know I had a far it's in my name it's titled in my name I have a bank account it's titled in my name is a title is the legal term for when someone's name is on something okay so if you and I are friends and you own a car and it's in your name and I own a car and it's in my name I can't go I'm taking your car now Louis because your car is in your name so you have proof of ownership of it okay if I say you know Louis I've bought a car I have a Tesla you have a Tesla it's silly that we both have Tesla's let's share a Tesla so I'll put your name on my Tesla and now we both are titled owners of that Tesla well now if you and I have a parting of ways we have to divide that Tesla so now and the law says okay we'll divide that based on how much you put into it and how much who repaired it or who fixed it up so there's all kinds of ways to determine how the ownership interest just like a business if we start a business together it's in your name it's in my name how we're gonna divide it up when you marry you immediately opt out of the title system so if it's in my name it's ours if it's in your name it's ours songs do belong if I buy my wife a Rolex watch I bought myself one half of a Rolex watch if I get ten thousand dollars in credit card debt my spouse just got five thousand dollars in credit cards so you're opting out of this so no one knows that you're now opting in to certain systems regarding a lifestyle so you're opting into systems about you know maintaining spousal support or alimony okay what used to be called alimony is now called spousal maintenance okay or spousal support and that is a system whereby if one person is an earner and the other person is less of an earner that if there's a split between those people that one person has to now make payments to the other person to maintain them in a certain level of lifestyle or rehabilitate their earning capacity of life no not necessarily from life every state has different formulas as to how they do things and every state is different you know numbers and percentages and how many years you have to be married before you know that the right to alimony kicks in but again people don't know those things when they sign up you know people when they get married in New York State don't know Oh seventeen percent of my gross income less FICA as my child support exposure if I have a child one child 25% of I of two you know people don't learn that you don't get a piece of paper when you get married that explains that to you you're signing up for a contract you don't know the terms of you know and again I think you just sort of assuming that it's a fair contract you haven't read it but you just assume it's a fair country getting married is like when you just agree to the terms of service on the app that you just want no clue what it's like no clue but if that app could take half your 401k in your house and leave with your kids you might read the Terms of Service before you just kept hitting accept you know and that's that's the reality you know that's why I think if you put engaged people in the office of a divorce lawyer and just say hey listen what I mean the pamphlet yeah here look I do more prenups now than then I ever did before and and more and more people are getting do you think it's smart to have one absolutely absolutely our what is smart to have one it's incredibly foolish not to have one no matter who you are no matter where you're at you're ready ship that's how romantic you are and how you're like we're gonna be together forever and look I don't plan on dying but I have a will you know I know I'm gonna die that's why forever every marriage is gonna end it's either gonna end in death or divorce but it's definitely gonna end there's no such thing as a marriage lasts forever it's either get any death or divorce do you have a will okay your marriage is gonna end in death so you have a well right your marriage might end in divorce so why not have a prenup by the way why not have a prenup for the reason I'm talking about which is just to have some discussions about what do you expect from this marriage why are we afraid of that discussion why can't you sit down with with a person who you've been dating for that period of time and who you apparently like that much that you've decided you want to have this person be the one you hold hands with as you walk into all of the challenges in the world you can't have a conversation with them and say to them if this ends yeah maybe it's your fault maybe it's my fault maybe it's our fault maybe it's some third parties but whatever if this sense and I'm not saying it well I love you not would you no but if it sends what would what do you think it would look like what would it look like like would you set my [ __ ] on fire you know or would you you know would we like sit and say okay wait a minute here's what I need here's what you need would you want half my things what I want happier things what would be important to you what would we do with the dog you know what would we do with and and having that conversation by the way I believe very much so and I've heard it said many times on your podcast by a variety of professionals we're the most alive in the presence of death you know we're the most alive in the presence of loss and sadness you know and so I think we're the most acutely aware of the value of love when we think about losing it you know when we think about what if this person was taken from me what if this person who I love wasn't with me anymore like what would I lose what would I not have anymore because really it's a conversation about value it's a conversation about what is this person bringing to my life into my heart you know and so why not have that conversation that's it that's a great conversation you know they're dirt we're storytellers human beings you know and and my job is to tell stories you know my job is to go into a courtroom and tell the story of a marriage to a judge in a way that flatters my crime right puts a halo on my client horns on the other side you know and I want to persuade them to see things my clients way that my parents my clients the great parent the other side is not the great parent you know if it's a custody case whatever it might be so I'm a storyteller by nature and I have to learn how to how to spin some of the same facts into into different outcomes and what I'll say is I understand the power of stories you know and the stories we tell ourselves about our marriage and the stories we tell each other about our marriage we've all been out to dinner with someone who were dating you know or married to and somebody systems so how'd you guys meet mmm and so you tell the sweet little story of how you met and everybody like kind of lights up a little bit like nobody everybody pays attention to that story that's a fun story I like to hear that story I like to hear how did you meet your girlfriend Oh tell me about that and by the way your demeanor changes when you tell that slide up a little bit right and so I think people kind of in that moment there's a lot of like reconnection to the love again right there's a lot of reconnection to each other in that moment because why because you're talking about when this person wasn't with you and then they came to you when they added something to your life well why not have that conversation when you're getting married why not have a conversation about what did I have before you and if there was to be an after you what would it look like for me because I think it's a very romantic conversation I think it's a very romantic thing to speak so honestly to someone about here's what you bring to my life here's what I hope I bring to yours if this ends in a way other than us dying what would it look like how would I express my love for you you know I'm very proud as a divorced man that my love for my ex-wife is still evident in my behavior at school it's still evident in the fact that I've treated her with love and respect and I'm still someone who supports her as a person and who's still emotionally therefore I've embraced the man she married because he's now part of my family because he's part of my son's family so you know that's an act of love you know to talk about how marriages end in a very fearless way and I think it would be it would be a great thing if people did it more prenups are on the rise people don't talk about the fact that they're getting prenups because it's just not something you don't on Facebook oh we just did our prenup you know you post oh we just tasty here it is we just tasted cake sorrow we just found the venue you don't say like just finish negotiating the prenup or just finish you know talking about the prenup but it's something people are doing because they're pragmatic and they're realistic you know yeah you know I know the stats 253 percent so it's like let's be realistic like if something happens hopefully it doesn't right now would you ever you've been you've been married you've been divorced would you ever get married again and do you believe in the technology in the way that it is right now still yeah I I believe very much in marriage I think marriage is like the lottery you're probably not gonna win butter but if you win what you win is so good that it's worth buying a ticket it's worth giving try my parents were married for over 50 years my mom passed away two years ago after a long battle with cancer but they had a tremendous partnership and their lives were better for having loved each other and they had ups and they have downs and they had challenges but their lives were really enriched by the fact that they married each other I I think the upside of marriage is so good and the down side doesn't have to be as bad as we make it so I think we have to I think that's where Esther Perel got it right is we have to reinvent how we view marriage and we have to as a culture start talking about what's really going on in marriages and what's really happening with them and what's really important to us in marriage and why we're getting married we have to start looking at marriage as a technology not as some romantic sentiment and I think if we do that we're gonna find ourselves in a better place as a culture and that's a technology that might be worth signing on for yeah you know but definitely a prenup I mean a prenup would be in order gotcha now so you would get married again mmm let's say you got married and it worked and it was amazing and all the things happened that you wanted to happen and enriched both of your lives but for whatever reason you realize 10 20 light years later like it's not working for us anymore when I decide just part ways like a night would you get married again time great question so here's what I'll continue to do or you say you know I all right I've done it so I give it's not working I had explode ups I had a client who I did his fourth divorce what and a prenup for this fifth marriage no way okay and I had the same reaction as you yeah good let me tell you what he said to me and it was it was really it stuck with me this is 15 years ago I said to him he's an older fellow at that point and I said to him like you know look you realize you don't like have to marry them right but you can you can sleep with them you can date the baby I live together now like people don't have because I thought maybe he's old school but maybe no one told him you know that it's okay like you can you know not from like the Vatican perspective it's okay like you can tell us what he's gonna look at you culturally anymore and say sure you know shame on you you're living in sin so he said to me look you said um let's say you buy a car and you drive it for 20 years and it's super reliable and it gets you where you need to be but eventually it just breaks down so you go out and you buy a sports car you buy a flashy amazing sports car and within six months you realize this was a terrible idea this was Impractical yeah this is not the right car for you see you read that car and then you get another car that's closer to the first car and you really think okay this is gonna be the car you know but for whatever reason it just doesn't kind of mesh the right way and you know maybe it's that your driving habits after all these years or whatever it is but it breaks down and you get rid of it are you just walk everywhere for the rest of your life mm-hmm and I remember thinking okay that's not bad like the truth is is that we want to maintain connection marriage is not a decision that one person makes as a decision two people make I mean arguably more than two people because people get married not just for each other they get married because their parents expect them to get married their culture expects them to get marriage their friends expect them to get married so it's not even just about a personal decision between two people yeah it's it's but no one ever gets married just because they felt like getting married there has to be another person in the equation so I think realistically you know people just keep trying and and and I don't I think it's foolish to say well if I had a failed marriage I wouldn't get married he listened there are very few things in life that I was good at the first time I did it you know very few things a lot of times I got to screw something up several times before I get it right right no I I was bad at jujitsu for a good five years before I got even vaguely good at it yeah you know the first time you somebody hands you a baseball bat or through a spiral you know you didn't catch a football and go oh yeah I know how to do this now it's something that you really have to fail you have to suck at before you get good at it so marriage might be that kind of thing you might have to suck at marriage a little bit now maybe you can suck at it and improve at it during the marriage right or maybe you suck at it you have to have the marriage and you go okay let's try this again you know it's it's it's a very personal thing I think it it has to really do with you know again I'm I'm always afraid that anything I say about marriage is gonna come off as an endorsement of or a condemnation of marriage and it's not that it's again it's a technology I'm not for or against mugs I just know what purpose they're supposed to serve and I know what problems they potentially create and then the question is is do you have that problem that do I have that problem you know if you say is marriage good for who for me or for you or or for your cousin or for your mom who you know those answers are going to be different is that shirt good yeah that sure it's good for you it wouldn't fit me yeah you know so the question really is about does this technology make sense for you you know and and if you live in the tundra you know your Tesla doesn't make sense so can I then say well Tesla's are stupid no Tesla's just don't make sense for you so I think marriage why can't we look at marriage the same way why does marriage have to be one size fits all and again that's the kind of stuff that has to pro I think says so she said on the show is there yeah you know it doesn't have to be it's about the two people that are in that marriage and they cut larger context of the of the group they're in and figuring out what if then that makes sense yeah you know not just is marriage good or bad mm-hmm what are you sure you have two kids or a kid together what what advice you give them on marriage you know i I've always told them to take it seriously just take marriage seriously I mean my one son is 19 the other ones soon to be 21 mm-hm and they're both you know I mean my older son is at the age where I I married his mother and we remind him of that constantly he's completely freaked out by it and my younger son is at the age where I moved in with his mother and he's also equally freaked out by that thought you know but but I I'm very blessed in the sense that my sons grew up with a sense of marriage as a technology because of what their father does for a living and also because you know we had to explain to them at the ages of you know divorced 10 or 8 and 10 we had to explain to them in a way that kid could understand and the way we chose to do it was to say to them a very specific thing we said to them you know mom and dad don't love each other in the very specific way married people are supposed to but we both love you and you're only gonna have one mom and one dad and we're always gonna be a family and we repeated that over and over and over and over again yeah you know because think about like break that down a little bit it's not mom and dad don't love each other no mom and dad love each other there's a lot of people I love I wouldn't wanna be married today we don't love each other in the very specific way married people are supposed to love each other and kids can understand that because kids know the way I love grandma the way I love mom the way I love my teddy bear are three different ways so it's okay to say you know I love this person but I don't love them in the very specific way a married person is supposed to love their spouse you know and that to me is is what I've always tried to say to them it's just when you marry if you're thinking about getting married take it seriously ask yourself what problem am I trying to solve by marrying this person look at honestly what they want you want and what will likely happen in your life just like that car example you know yeah you don't know what's gonna happen in life but there are certain predictable things that you can think about you know I'm gonna get older I'm gonna my health will fail eventually at some point I may want to have kids and I'm going backwards but you know there we will have misfortunes sometimes we'll have challenges so knowing what you're likely to come up against mm-hmm does this person make sense and if the answer is yes then you know give it a shot have a prenup to give a [ __ ] yeah is there a marriage that you admire a lot that you've seen I have yeah I mean I have I don't have a famous person marriage I could point to although I think Ted Danson and Mary I forget what her last name is they have a pretty uh they seem to be each other's fans in a huge way I mean I I love when you see couples that have been together for an extended period of time and they're just still cheering for each other they're just still like so like in this person's corner and they just look at them like ah like I'm so proud of them I'm so excited about them you know and that to me is those are relationships worth having yeah um I have a real relationship role model I have two very dear friends who have been married for a little over 20 years I knew them when they were in college we all went to college together and they have two sons were roughly the same age as my sons and they still she still refers to him as her boyfriend and he still refers to her as his girlfriend and she'll write on her facebook like oh my boyfriend's coming home today as he travels a lot for work so my boyfriend's coming home today and he lit [ __ ] you know Jimmy Iovine the the record you know executive and genius said because he's been he's at an incredibly successful marriage and an incredibly happy marriage long-term marriage and he's second one or the because he was married for a while and then again this is his current measurement he's been married for extended period of time got it and his secret to it that he's pretty open about is never stop closing your wife he just never he's like I'm always just trying to close I'm always just trying to like impress her woo her and it's never never finished right it's always this and that's why I said that you know marriage is hard if you think petting attention is hard if you don't think paying attentions hard marriage isn't that hard so it really is about like I see in this my relationship role models I see in them this constant like they wouldn't forget to get the granola they wouldn't stop doing that little thing that little thing that lets the other person know man I like you I'm cheering for you like I want it to be good yeah yeah that's cool make sure you guys get this book I think it's really cool if you're in my office it's already too late a divorce lawyers guide to staying together make sure you check this out I think it's gonna be really powerful you can get it right now a couple final questions for you this is called the three truths and if this was your last day many years from now and all the stuff you've written and talked about and everything you've experienced and all your dreams you had come true but you won't be able to leave them behind you'd have to take them with you so no one would have access to all your information your message your content the things you've done you'd have to bring with you when you when you pass on but you got to leave behind a piece of paper that said your three truths three things you need to be true about all your experiences in life whether it be from your career work love relationships parenting whatever maybe these were only three lessons you could leave behind what would you say are your three truths so I would say the first one would be that the hard thing to do and the right thing to do are almost always the same thing because I think that that that's something I've learned in every aspect of my life that the hard thing and the right thing are almost always the same thing the second thing would be it's all about connection I would probably just write it's all about connection and I would hope that the person would understand what I meant that there really was nothing else at the end of the day it's that everything we do in our lives whether it's our desire for sex or desire for money or desire for art to create art to create beauty it's all about connection we're just trying to connect to each other and and that's the beauty of it and it's the tragedy of it because in my office I see the beauty of it and then I see the tragedy of it when we lose that connection or when we miss that connection when we let that connection fall apart so I would say it's all about connection and the third the third thing I you know and it's probably a shallow thing to say but I would say don't take it so seriously mmm-hmm you know I I think when I look back on my life as a 45 year old man you know solidly midlife I on it and I think to myself that there really are only five or six moments that when I think about my life I go wow that was such a great moment and none of them when it was happening did I realize how great it was you know I think back now I just had this thought the other day because both my sons are in college now and my youngest I became an empty-nester in September when my youngest went off to college and I was thinking the other day about if I had to think of a moment in my life that was like the just the greatest moment and it wouldn't be like when I graduated law school or when I you know you know won some trial or when my book was published you know it was it would be like some night when I was divorced for a year or two and I you know went to the store and got just what the kids like to eat cuz they were coming for the weekend and I like made them dinner and they said at the table doing their homework and we were just together and I felt like a really engaged wonderful loving father you know it wasn't the kind of father I had my father was like a of his generation kind of a father you know and he drank any kind of you know didn't talk talk too much about feelings or anything like that it wasn't the kind of man that would read the mask of masculinity here but but it to me those little moments those unexpected little moments it's everything and so just don't take all of the other stuff so seriously because when you look back even in a marriage like there are moments in that marriage that you well it's happening you had no idea that that was the best that was going to get you know so just cultivate space you know and leave opportunity for those ridiculous little moments that then don't take the rest of it so seriously I like those things or acknowledge you for a moment Jim for there's a lot of pain that couples go through there's a lot of heartache a lot of misery there's a lot of stress anxiety through the divorce process so for you to give some great information from your almost two decades of of insights to be able to hopefully prevent a lot of the pain that people don't need to go through I want to acknowledge you for using your gifts for using your information and presenting in a way that is fun and interesting and inspiring but also informational so we can hopefully not make a lot of mistakes that 53% of people do make not even mistakes but just being aware going into what we're doing and having all the information laid out right yeah I'd love to put myself out of business yeah I say it all the time I'd love to put myself out of business I don't think it'll happen I'm I think that any I think the truths out there in a lot of things and and and you know but but can people apply the truth and our people are interested in hearing it I don't know I hope so yes same thing with nutrition you know there's a lot of nutritionists that would love to put themselves out of business when all the informations available for us some reason we keep making the same mistakes or getting obese or hurting ourselves in that way too but you've got a powerful gift and I'm glad that you're able to present this information and in a fun and interesting and storytelling type of way so I acknowledge you for all that you're doing man until oh I'm glad you came on I think this will be fascinating for a lot of people final question before I ask it make sure you guys get the book we'll have linked up with everything else talked about on this page on the resources and the show notes the final questions what's your definition of greatness I would say greatnesses is diving deeply into what you do you know everything that you do just diving deeply into it and and you know the tragedy of our time is people spending five days a week looking forward to to you know fifty weeks a year looking forward to the two weeks vacation they get you know to meet greatness is about identifying and diving deeply into the things that make you feel alive and they make you feel connected you know again it's all about connection I mean it's ridiculous that a divorce lawyer who disconnects people for a living is preaching the gospel of connection but but that's the truth it's about connection it's about connecting to yourself connecting other people so I would say the definition greatness for me is about just diving deeply into connection hmm Jim thank you great to see us thanks so much for happy appreciated you

Channel: Lewis Howes

Views: 728,921

Keywords: lewis howes, the school of greatness, james sexton, jim sexton, divorce lawyer, if you're in my office its already too late, Marriage Secrets from a Divorce Lawyer with James Sexton, interview 2018, tom bilyeu, tony robbins, mel robbins

Id: -iXwkwIEIbI

Length: 78min 43sec (4723 seconds)

Published: Tue Apr 10 2018