If You Want To BUILD SEXUAL DESIRE In A Relationship WATCH THIS! | Esther Perel & Lewis Howes

welcome back everyone to the school of greatness podcast I'm very excited about our guest today thank you so much for being here Esther Perel you've got an amazing book called mating in captivity unlocking erotic intelligence and so make sure everyone go and check out this book we'll have it linked up at the end of the show notes as well I became aware of you before summit series I remember hearing about this book and who you were but I never really dove into your work until summit series happened which is a conference for essentially inspiring entrepreneurs and people looking to take over the world in their own industry I call it the mixture of Ted Davos and Burning Man they yes exactly that type of people that have a crowd and you spoke you were supposed to speak it like a little tiny restaurant on this cruise ship and I remember going to this and like just the line outside we couldn't even get in so I remember experiencing that I've been like oh I hope she you know talks again and then you talked like four more times and so I showed up early for like one of the few ones after that and it took like an hour for you to start because there was like thousands of people out waiting to try to get in this one session and so I said okay there's something here this conversation about relationships sex desire love intimacy erotic intelligence which we call and there's something here that we're struggling with in our society today and especially with driven passionate entrepreneurs who are always up to the next big thing a next shiny object and so I'm glad that you were able to come in here and be in the studio in LA and thank you for being here and and the first question I want to ask before we actually get into all of these juicy relationship questions is who was the most influential person growing up for you in your childhood and what was the thing that influenced you about them ooh the most I never have one for these questions what's one that maybe comes to mind someone who was really influential and a lesson they do I will start with the most close person I would say my father why my father was illiterate okay my father and my mother actually both of them came to Belgium by chance after each of them being four and five years in concentration camps in Poland they both were the sole survivors of their entire family they came with absolutely nothing they were illegal refugees for five years before they even became legalized and my father always was a person who said it doesn't matter how brilliant they are or how rich they are what matters the most is how decent they are and when you are in a concentration camp you get to see with the limits of a person's humanity and the stretch and outreach of a person's humanity and their decency and for some reason that always stayed with me meaning don't get impressed by all the appearances and by how everything looks look at the person and then he said and a friend is the person who will always do more for themselves as they were for the other sorry as they will do for themselves that's your friend and check people out on that basis and he had never read a book he couldn't read and write pretty much she read the newspaper he spoke five languages but poorly and and he was a grand human being and I often often think of him in relation to that especially when I come into the entrepreneurial world which is often a world of inflate itself exactly yeah now what was your would you say is your biggest fear growing up did you have a big fear insecurity that was a challenge for you yes I grew up in the Flemish part of Belgium and on one hand I had nothing to fear on the external level but I think that the history of my parents was such that I always lived with the feeling that everything can disappear from one minute to the next I had no sense that what we have is here to stay I have never thought in terms of permanence I happened to be born in Belgium by the fluke of our fatality I don't really belong to a place and for a long time I felt very uprooted by that okay now I think it actually became also a resource for me in my life but at the time that sense that you know you cannot cannot count anything to be there tomorrow just because it's there today right okay that sense of fragility and impermanence and the dread it wasn't fear it was dread you still have that dread today yes yes I do I do it's not a visible dread and but yes I have free-floating anxiety that I can't always pinpoint on certain things but I live with the sense that you know actually when everything goes really well that's what your friends and I of course did everything that if I go to the doctor I'm gonna come out with a small boo-boo I think that the day I have something since I've always been really blessed ly healthy that the day I get something it will be a big boo-boo and I I have a bit of catastrophic thinking okay how do I act completely counterfeit I act like I have no fear yeah but inside there is that little voice that just so how do you how does that work for you how does that support you in your day to day work and your relationships by having that dread sense that feeling does it work for you or not you know it changed over time I think it we did you used to you take your strengths and your weaknesses and you tweak them you know back and forth but I think that it'll it has always made me well I'll tell you the first thing because I because of the history of my parents because I in any way was kind of a miracle child my brother too because we were symbols of revival and because it proved to our parents that is still way human in a way that it could still bring people into the world I always had a clear sense that my life was not gonna be small sure my life has to be big big doesn't mean successful and money big men meaningful rich layered you know it's not necessarily well-known or famous but feeling full for food yeah not dead not dead I mean there's a reason I write about the Rattus ISM right and that sense that I was not gonna be mediocre you know I'm not content with just the average of something that it has to be the best it has to be the right one for me at that moment that may be the beautiful spot or the the right friend to be with or the right act to take in relation to somebody or to some cause but that sense that my life has to be big like a you know it has been with me since I was sure sure okay so so tell me why you wrote this book and why you got into I guess this topic in general what made you wanna start to focus you know the funny thing is it's a fluke actually I never wrote about sexuality until about ten twelve years ago I did write about relationships plenty for the past thirty years have been a couples therapist and a relationship expert I work with companies I work with families and couples on modern relationships and that always involved looking at how this cultural change affect relationships migration education technology individualism consumer society how do all these things the shift from communism to democracy how do big cultural changes affect relationships always been doing that sex was a kind of a side subject and then I was basically a little bit looking for a new topic and and I got inspired by the Clinton scandal okay basically when was that there was in the late 90s okay but it moved all the way into the beginning mm I don't the exact year but the Clinton Lewinsky scandal for me from a cultural point of view was very interesting why was the United States so tolerant about multiple divorces and so intransigent about infidelity the rest of the world and I just spoke to 4,000 people in Mexico a couple months ago and it was so important to watch this difference it was the complete contrast to the state has always opted the other way around you preserve the family at all cost thanks to women and you make compromises and tolerance for infidelity really yes especially in Europe it's like every married man seems like a mistress no Americans don't cheat one iota less than the French Syrian Americans do not cheat one iota less they just feel more guilty right the French are just it's just well-known it's just part of life right it's not part of life it is changing a great deal and it's clear that most of the time throughout history there has been a complete double standard when it comes to infidelity it's a privilege for men it's almost a sanctioned license with all kinds of theories evolutionary and biological theories that justify their need to roam and it's been way too dangerous for women but that doesn't mean that you know you give the woman a car and then you'll see what she will really do right you know if you don't trap her into the house right it's adultery has always existed but what was interesting for me was how how people would scream at it here make it a matter of national political agenda and not blink an eye at multiple divorces which create the dissolution of the entire family system why is that so much preferable to the other that was the original question and then I began to think a little bit more about okay that leads me to think about Americans and sex there's something really interesting about this country in relation to sexuality that fascinates me I've been working here for almost 30 years at the time and why is it that in the u.s. sex is the risk factor and in Europe being irresponsible is the risk factor sex is a natural part of human development okay what do you mean by responsible not being protective structure not being respectful not being consensual actually the act of doing it we have comprehensive sex education from age four why is it that here you have no public health policy on adolescent sexuality why is it that despite that no campaigns and abstinence campaign Americans have earlier onset of sexual activity than the most liberal Dutch more STDs and more teen pregnancies than 35 developing countries combined why is that because we're not educated early yes because they are there is an enormous taboo on sex education with the kind of sense that if you educate people they're going to be promiscuous rather than the understanding that it is actually the repression and the Puritanism that will unleash a kind of sexuality that is often about smut and titillation so I had basically wrote a little article in a trade magazine not even in the general then it got taken into the broad press and and it led to this book which is translated in 26 languages and and hence I became now suddenly I didn't just look at relationships and culture but I'd look at the triangle sexuality relationships and culture using sexuality to analyze societal changes cultural changes families relationships and the individual self what are the core reasons or the core things you see over and over that either end or make a relationship challenging to be in the longer end what are the what are the ones that what are the challenges that come up over and over that you see mm there's always three questions right what's a thriving relationship a thriving one yeah what can go wrong uh-huh and how do you fix it okay so you started with the middle question I think there's a number of things in a relationship that good that that become just the kind of cornerstones of the demise okay and I'm not going to list them in order but they all are part of each other indifference and contempt and neglect and violence are probably the four most important I'm not talking about big violence microaggressions are plenty indifference when you start to feel like the other person fundamentally is not really caring about you anymore or you don't care about them what they feel what they think who they are what they're about this is dog hair you've lost interest but it's more than losing of interest it's also when you are doing different you degrade the other person they're less important to you they don't matter and ultimately what we feel in relay is that we matter that is the essential reason for connecting to people is that we are creatures of meaning I matter to you I'm someone you care about me you want my mail you want my well-being you're proud of me you you want good for me your benevolent all of that when you are indifferent the whole thing goes and then you start this that coldness that creeps in that sense of estrangement that complete disconnect that the second one is neglect neglect when people just basically take each other for granted you know I did take more care of their car than of their partner or daughter or their dog anybody anything their yard anything anything gets attendant business business for sure their business for sure you know everything gets priority everything gets reviewed evaluated at ten to two 360s you name it you know new input in my god it's like people have this idea that they put it all in when they were dating and then once they seal the knot it's like as if they tie the knot it's like now they don't have to do squat anymore and they go into this kind of complete sense of complacency and laziness it's an amazing thing they think this thing is just gonna live on its own right like a cactus right violence violence the abuse the level of disrespect I mean most people talk nicer to anybody else than their partner when a relation is there it because you can't get away with it because you can't get away with it because if you talk like this at work you're gone because if you talk like this with the police you're gone because if you talk like this on the street you're being punched but would you partner you have that sense that they're gonna be there anyway they're just gonna take it because it's family and family is this kind of this thing that doesn't dissolve so easily so you can just lash out at them and talk to them with a tone and a dismissal that is phenomenal so that kind of violence I'm not talking physical violence and all the other big big things talking about aggression or resentment or passive aggressiveness or all of that and then and then contempt I think is the top one the contempt is the killer of them all because in the contempt there is a real there's the degradation of the race he said that complete this you nothing you nothing I can kill you with that one gaze that one eyebrow that goes at the you know do you who do you think you are what and that's it you done you done so I don't even get to this place after having been so in love it's so romantic right is it is desire reflect that or if we're not desiring the person anymore then we start to feel one of those categories or does that not plan to look there's only two relationships that resemble each other the one you have with your parents or the people who raised you and the one you have with the people you fall in love with people can sit in my office all the time and say I have this with no one else I don't have this with anybody at work nobody among my friends everything's like that you're the only one who speaks like this or thinks this about me or with whom I do this no you're the only one and now we go back in history and I'm sorry to be the psychologist but that's really it is the place where we often learned about closeness trust loyalty commitment sharing taking receiving asking all these essential verbs of relationships we learned that at home we also learned jealousy and we saw it all his children right we saw the fights we saw the love we saw the we saw the coolness lack of intimacy intimacy yes and we bring that with us and we often promise ourselves I'll never be this one I'll never be this way I'll never talk like this and you know and we find ourselves often much presenting ourselves we resent ourselves were like how do we do this place and then we feel a shame about it and since we don't like to feel ashamed about it we hide it and one of the way we hide it is we blame the partner that's just one of the ways is the load we are very resourceful in not owning our [ __ ] exactly exactly Wow okay where does sex playing with all this and desire so I mean do one of the fascinating things for me in looking at sexuality is that it's probably one of the dimensions of relationship that has changed the most in a very very short amount of time for most of history and in still the majority of the world sex is for procreation sex is a marital duty on the part of the woman nobody cares particularly if she likes it and how she feels and if she wants it and and men have the privilege to go and find sex elsewhere in a very short amount of time we're talking 60 years we have contraception which is the liberation of women for the first time three sex from reproduction from mortality from death in pregnancy and in childbirth sorry all of that and for the first time sexuality moves from just biology and a condition to a part of our identity and a lifestyle in 60 years in 60 years the women's movement which goes after the abuses of power the gay movement which introduces the concept of identity to sexuality the fact that sex is for connection and pleasure the fact that for the first time we have sex before marriage and many times Allah we used to marry and have sex for the first time now we marry and we stops having sex with other okay monogamy used to be one person for life now monogamy is one person at a time and people go around telling you I'm monogamous in all my relationships and it's okay all of that in a very short amount of time the fact that I choose you to marry or to live together doesn't matter commitment because I'm attracted to you because you give me butterflies in my stomach and the fact that I think that if I don't have these butterflies anymore maybe I don't love you anymore and the fact that sexuality in long-term relationships is rooted in one thing only desire I feel like it I want to not I have to not we want many kids after two kids the only reason to continue but doing it with you is because we feel like it's pleasurable we connect it feels good it runs the whole thing that's it and hopefully it's at the same time and for each other because plenty of desire continues but it's not always at home right exactly so this is an amazing revolution sexy confusing all of us and how do we sustain it so that's why I became fascinated in the nature of erotic desire and how do we sustain desire because it is the first time ever that we have a grand experiment of the human kind where we want sex with one person in the long haul that is fun and connected and intimate and playful and we need twice as long go figure exactly for 60 years you're gonna be able to whatever it is yeah it's an amazing idea so how do we navigate this if we're gonna choose one partner and be with them until you know we're both gone how do we navigate the challenge of keeping the desire continuously I think men and women the woman who probably sees other men who are attracted to her and you know vice versa so it's like kind of both parties to this look we know that women get bored with monogamy much sooner than men factors research okay that's not just fact that that is men's desire in long-term relationship goes down gradually he actually is much more able to remain interested and maybe just because he's interested in the experience itself and he has a partner there woman's desire post marriage relates Wow and it's always been translated as well that's because women care less about sex rather than it's because women care less about the sex that they can have in their committed relationships which is often not interesting enough for them and it often has to do with the fact that the story the character the plot is not it's not seductive the romance which is an essential ingredient of turn-on for the woman often disappears in the long-term relationship it's like even people look at each other at the end of the day and you want to fool around you want to do it you're up for it tonight now this is really not this is not very much of a turn-on for us women and the idea that foreplay often starts at the end of the previous orgasm you know and not five minutes before the real thing which for her is not the real thing the whole the real thing is everything else to the game yes it's creating a game abduction it's a plot it's coming close it's a mystery it's what animals call pacing it's that I come to you but I don't overwhelm you I come just a little bit so that you can come a little bit toward me and then I don't immediately answer I actually go back a little bit - have you ever seen animals they do this kind of pacing and it is an essential playful ingredient of seduction and an excitement so woman's desire plummets but we interpret it as women are less interested in sex rather than women are interested in probably just about the same kind of things that many men are but women have always known what to choose above what turns them on which was what gives them stability and security family someone to protect be there right so what people do look this is we want one partner today to give us everything that involves stability and security and everything that involves playfulness and mystery okay that's the grand idea okay I want to be cozy with you and I want to have an edge and I want you to surprise me and I want you to be familiar and I want you to give me continuity and I want you to give me novelty that's it as if it's a right and know Victoria's Secret is gonna solve that yeah right so then it becomes what is desire desire is to own the wanting if you ask people a question that goes like this I turn myself off when I turn myself off by not you turn me off when and what turns me off is you're gonna hear I turn myself off when I do emails when I spend too many time on the phone when I overeat when I don't exercise when I have bad bad days at work when I don't feel confident when I numb myself when I feel dead when I don't feel traving when I am NOT alive you will really hear that it has very lived to do with sex and when you ask people I turn myself on when or by I awaken my desires not you turn me on when and what turns me on is which is ie you responsible for my haunting what people will talk to you about is when I'm in nature when I'm connected with my friends when I get to do my sports when I play music when I listen to music it's the stuff that gives me pleasure that is alive that is vibrant that is vital that is erotic in the full sense of the word as lifeforce and from that place people remain interested in having sex with somebody else for the long haul not because they've scratched their arms with two seconds right it's I feel good about myself the biggest turn-on is confidence confidence you ask people when do you find yourself most drawn to your partner the every description has to do with when they're in their element when they're on stage when they're with when when when they're doing their sport when they when they are radiant when they are in their studio on the piano on the horse you name it it's when they are in their element ie they don't need me to take care of them they're not depressed and down and lonely and sad they're not needy they don't need me because desire is about wanting you love is also about needing you caretaking is a very powerful experience in love and it is a very powerful anti addition so how do you experience love and desire at the same time you calibrate it so sometimes here it's the same as when you walk you have to move from one foot to the other a balance is not about staying on one side a balance is the ability to see right now we don't need caretaking we can be mischievous we can be naughty we can be playful we can break our own rules we can stay home and not go to work at eight o'clock right and now we are in a playful zone now we are feeling that we are bringing our own little transgressions home we are alive we're not just being dutiful responsible good citizens right that it's very small you know I mean I always think when I go and I see people at lunch and you see them talking and they're well-dressed and they're awake and all I seen who is here with their partner because you can see them they're engaged they're giving the best of themselves that's erotic no the majority are not there with their partner they're not with their friends with their colleagues their partner is gonna get the leftover when they come home at night sorry you know what forget the night date meet at lunch when you actually have energy you know when you and and in the middle of the day like that when you're awake when you have something to offer it's a very small thing but they don't do it they don't do it and you say why not why not why don't you stay an hour extra at home in the morning and not just because when you have a headache and just say this matters to me all in all you know committed sex is premeditated sex it's not just gonna happen because whatever is gonna just happen already has so you're gonna make it happen because you say we matter we're important let's do this let's spend it doesn't mean if you're gonna make love or have say it just means we gotta take desire and it is nothing else that matters in this moment but just you and I to be together to check in and then we'll see what unfolds that's the erotic space in which sex may happen probably will doesn't have to but it is the place from which it is much more likely to emerge but people don't do that they do the responsibility that's the love right the citizen the commitment the caretaking the burden is the safe and then they say I'm bored I would be - exactly it's no mystery there's no risk-taking right exactly there's no risk-taking that's the word if you want desire it's risk and the risk is an emotional risk it's not about sexy risks it's really a risk on the emotional front is that I bring something else to you today differently from differently from from the way I typically present myself sure you know how can I do this what can I do today that will be different from the ways that I've done it until now how can I do something that I think would actually improve our relationship me right not something that I want or that you want but that I think would be actually good for us that third entity to us right and you check every time you know how often do you just go on the tried and trodden as in you know it works sex that just works for most people is really not interesting enough right so because what does it mean it works generally right what what about people listening you're saying man that sounds like a lot of work that every day you have to change do something different in your knee can be not every day not every day not every day but what you can do every day is just a quick check with yourself you know is there something that I should notice is there something that I can be thankful for is there a little note that I could write is there you know just a way that I can show up a time it's small it's really small here's the thing there is work and then there is the creative work mmm you know I'm talking about a level that is creative and that elevates you and that actually gives you you feel you feel taller you just feel like you're engaged you feel awake rather than this this is the other seated position it's comfortable it's great but nothing happens here sure this this is alert here's the essential word is curiosity when you're curious you leaned forward and you watch you're open to the mysteries of life this is please don't bother me with anything because I don't want any stimulation I've had my share you know and this is the position that most people have at home so when people say it's too much work I basically say look you you if I was to say this in your business would you say this is too much work oh you would say that's very good advice this is high-rate consulting fees it's like excuse me but you don't think for a minute that your business would thrive if you let it language like that never you have a reward system you have incentives bonuses bonuses but there is no incentivized system as in the in the private domain so people just think why bother and that's the difference is that the ones who have good relationships other ones who created their own internal incentive is incentivized system what are some of those incentive systems that you've seen over time that really work are effective for long-term relationships I would say the first thing is almost one of the first things that our parents teach you please and thank you do you know how many people stop thanking their partners thank you thank you for doing this for me thank you for picking up the shirts thank you for you know you feel appreciated yes appreciation appreciation is huge gratitude acknowledgement of the presence of the other in your life not did you do this did you call did you pick up do this you know half the time expectation expectations of course you know expectations is often a resentment in the make but the expectation comes the fear of it's not good tank person first of all and because it also makes it feel like this is not a given nobody owes you squat you not owed anything you're not that important you're actually quite replaceable and with the divorce rate that we have what's the radar right now about 50 on first and 65 on second 65 and second Wow it's not good right it's really you know it cost a lot of money it's not good for the health I mean it's just like you know it's not good for the jobs it's it's just it's like okay now you could say maybe people shouldn't marry but it doesn't matter if it's marriage legally or the idea is that then we can do better we can do better in general I really think that the quality of our lives depends on the quality of our relationships I mean nobody's gonna write you know you worked 60 70 80 90 hours a week and you know they're gonna say he was there for people when they needed to he was there at every game he was there at a party he's the guy who when you were in his presence he had charisma not because he could stand in front of a huge crowd but he had charisma because when I was in his presence he made me feel special mm-hmm so diff charisma so appreciation gratitude thank you little things to go out of your way rather than just to do the minimum a lot of people start to do the bare minimum just so that they can't be scolded right go an extra thing on occasion just do something for the other person just because it matters to them even if you couldn't care less right rather than I died on it it's not important to me I don't I don't need this or I don't care about this give each other a lot of individual space not everything needs to be shared people have different passions different interests different friends and they need those separate spaces to exist admiration I think he's huge because admiration is also that you can have really see the other nurse of the other person don't try to make your partner into one person for everything mmm there is no such a person find multiple sources of connection of intimacy of friendship so that you can have a group of people support you and don't have one person who has to be there for you for everything especially when you're in the dumpster we used to have a village of people who to do that but now we just expect one person to be the villager yes that is that is a unique it is and and then we're upset when they don't fulfill the mandate and that's the morning like I can't talk to you you're not supportive of me you're not excited for me you know excuse me find other people right no it can't be everything for you yeah exactly no can you can we talk about you know what marriage was about early you know when it when it started do you know the history of marriage and how it's evolved and where it's at now and kind of like how we look at in society so as I won't go back millions of years because it's a long history and we were actually much more polygamous and much more polyamorous in all of death but the the mother from which we come is basically this marriage used to be an economic Enterprise it was a mercantile arrangement men dependent on women's fidelity for patrimony and lineage so that I can know who are my children and who gets the cows when I die when was this what time this is pretty much till it still is in most parts of the world by the way and I would say it's probably we're gonna go about 50 60 years back okay that's it okay well that's it people didn't choose who they married you know the building shows who they married arranged marriage is the norm still in many parts of the world certainly you didn't married because you fell in love you married somebody who was a good person with whom to have a family with and if love grew that was wonderful but it was not the beginning element of a relationship desire certainly was not what sex was about in marriage so this is the traditional model that doesn't mean that there was no good sex and intimate sex that doesn't mean there was no passion and that doesn't mean there was no love but that was not what the institution of marriage was meant for marriage that becomes a romantic arrangement I will begin that at the end of the 19th century it's about 150 years old but it needs contraception it needs a lot of it needs feminism and it's a lot of things to become what we want today which is a relationship that is rooted in intimacy intimacy which until not too long ago was basically we live together we share the vicissitudes of everyday life we raise the kids we work the land intimacy now is into me see mmm I share with you my inner life that required individualism before individualism we didn't have the concept self that's beginning of the 20th century now at late nineteen beginning twentieth so it's a lot of things go together you know the rise of individualism to move away from religion as the center the person becomes the center hence my individual happiness becomes central now I move away from the community I choose you and as I choose you now you become responsible to alleviate my existential aloneness you know that's why you become my village because I've left the village and and now you're gonna make me feel that I matter because I'm not dictate I'm not judged by my actions I'm judged by my personality it's very different I'm not you understand it's a whole new thing it's like Who I am not what I do as I'm as in do I show up in church they my an upstanding citizen you know I do em - am i doing right by my parents its personality it's a whole new thing right so trust affection intimacy desire becomes the four pillars you know within modern relationships dad is a whole new model Affairs used to be actually adultery for most of history was the space where we put people went to look for true love because there was that was marriage was arranged arranged an economic now that you we brought love into marriage adultery destroys it hmm so what did we do we brought love into marriage we brought sex to love we connected happiness to relational to emotional and sexual satisfaction mmm and and we also want a passionate marriage which for most of history has been a contradiction in terms passion has always existed but somewhere else right in the affair or in whatever yes Wow wherever how are we supposed to navigate all this I made actually I think it's exciting okay I really do because nobody in effect wants to go backwards no absolutely nobody wants to go back where you are stuck this is it you have one chance for life and the only thing you have going is that you die younger right exactly okay you actually have the opportunity to do it again to try a different story to be a different person to be a better partner and and to be a better parent for that matter and I think that that is something that we've never had is the opportunity to rewrite that story we always had one job for life and one relationship for life I think one of the you know of course we therefore didn't have to decide five times what do I want to do exactly we have give been given a unique opportunity I can have more than one career on more than one job more than one identity in this world and I can have a whole new family and I can have a whole new love that I can start at 60 40 50 60 and I have another 20 years with somebody and actually do it better this time I think that is actually one of the greatest gifts we've been given mm-hmm how long you been married 30-something 30-something years okay and how is your work two kids and how is your work and the constant conversation you read about this work supported or not supported your relationship with your husband you know there was a comment that I once made a few years back and it's become a it's become a line in one of my TED talk so you know where I said most of the people today are gonna have two or three relationships marriages are just related committed relationships marriages commit I could say marriages but let's say in Europe so many of us don't marry so it's a committed relationships most of us are gonna have two or three committed relationships in our lifetime due to divorce due to death various things some of us are gonna do it with the same person I have had probably three marriages to the same man well not because we divorced or anything but because over 30 years we have had to redefine ourselves to restructure everything that you do in companies you know to change our brand what works for five years is not gonna work for the next that's right but when we are just two is not the same as what works when we have four what works when we're in our twenties isn't the same as when we are in our 50s what works when we have this type of career is not the same as now you know and I think that the very principles that you apply to companies today flexibility fluidity the ability to reinvent itself to redefine itself to manage tradition and innovation is really what has to enter into all modern love that's what coupledom is about those who can do it do it with each other and the other ones do it by finding a new person hmm so what's the idea of relationship moving for in our this it's a it's you sit every once in a while and you say how we doing what are the strengths between us what you know it's I actually think people should have different commitment ceremonies in the course of a marriage yes I think that every few years or every year they should have a little summit or they should have a little whatever they want to call it they could have a ceremony area a kind of where are we at checking in how are we doing what has been good in our life what could we do better what could we do differently are we doing right by our children and we give you know are we meeting some of our important needs at this point what has changed for us we've just been sick we've just lost a parent we've just lost a child what's changing in our life and to actually address this head-on what the problem is in modern in couples is that most of the big topics are addressed when there is a crisis rather than when actually things are good when you're calm when you come of course you have less incentive to change when things are good but you have less creativity to change when things are bad same for companies same for couples well so I think retreats for couples are unique actually because couples are often isolated units they talk to nobody sometimes women will talk to women men will talk to no one and when a group of couple come together in a group it is powerful it is so normalizing to know what's happening at the neighbors that you never know and that you can always imagine is different from yours it's so powerful to hear you partner like you can never hear them because somebody else just said the same thing but just with a different word or just with a little bit more distance so that you're not instantly reactive and defensive I think that that conversation between couples the same way that you bring entrepreneurs together to a mastermind to talk about their company here's something in a different way that it finally lands with you and you can take action towards it yes I think that if we could actually bring the entrepreneurs and their partners it would be an incredible thing I do a lot of it with YPO we do with all these I see it each time and not to separate the partners from the others no actually have the people in the room you know have a fishbowl where the entrepreneurs talk about what their lives is and then have a fishbowl on the other side where the the next inner circle is where the partners talk about what it's like to live with the entrepreneur and have each of them listen to the other it's been one of the richest conversations I've had in that space Wow okay and what's your thoughts on divorce you know as you said over 50 percent or divorced the first time in over 65 the second time do you believe that or do you think it's you know that people should experience divorce oh they should go through that or they think do you think that they're being lazy or do you think that they're just not committed to it enough or that they haven't tried all the different things to become better themselves and to see the good in their partner I would start differently I would say is that a bad question no no not at all but I would say differently I would think that the first thing that has to happen with divorce is to take away the concept of failure as long as we still think that it is marriage for life till death do us apart when they facto for the majority of couples today it still love dies not till death do us apart that's when we divorce we break up one of dies yeah and then we think it's a failure I think that a relationship that has lasted for 15 20 25 years sometimes that's not a failure a long time it's a good success and they may have done certain things poorly and other things very well I think a lot of people who divorce don't have the chance to actually appreciate how many good things they had in their relationship and to and to do what I like to call you know i like win8 Paltrow the conscious uncoupling meaning of Katherine would were Thomas you know her yeah good bye yeah this is what I really am thankful for that we had together this is what I take with me from what we had together mmm this is what I wish for you as we move forward this is how I hope our children will remember us that is a very different departure and when you do that departure you also have a very different continuity in your next relationships later than carrying bitterness and victimization and resentment and all of that so I think that many people something ends you know but they moved in together they helped each other through school they helped each other in the beginning of their careers they helped each other when their parents were sick they helped each other when their parent died they helped each other with raising children this is a lot of what marriage is about they've had good marriages for all ii purposes and maybe other things have come in and they were not necessarily always that nice to each other and maybe they hurt each other and maybe they abandoned each other maybe they betrayed each other lots of other things come in too but this stuff all disappears because of the negative that then sits on it making it look like their marriage didn't work out it failed why it failed because it ended the only time it's successful is when they meet in the funeral home mmm interesting so you think we should redefine or look at it differently yes I think that marriage has to be disentangled from the concept of vacuous parties yes I think that divorce as the proof that a marriage failed is the wrong conclusion right it's not right and it takes away from people decades of enormous endeavors and constructive stuff it's not because a company closed that a company failed right right close all the time okay interesting sorry are you saying that you know since our we're evolving and growing and having different needs and desires and things like that that we should expect you know to start a family and then get divorced and how is that going to affect our our children's lives going forward should we be expecting more of that and be okay with just well now I've got a new partner and a new step-mom or stepdad and this is how we have multiple families now I was not going to be moved forward listen when there was no divorce basically the ones who the brunt of it where the women it's the supposed stability of the family basically rested because the woman stayed put made sure that the children had the weight taken care of the man went out many times many times if they had the possibility they certainly would so I think that we definitely have a model today that is more focused on the adults when you divorce it's for the for the well-being of the adult it's not unless there's real egregious you know issues in the family it's not for the benefit of the chileans but the benefit of the adult a divorce is not the end of the family it's the reorganization of the family it's the end of the couple but it's not the end of the family and if the couple can disentangle with more integrity and more respect and more real thoughts about the children not manipulation about it for the good of the children then the family can actually reorganize better and this is where it's going to go so we can bomb on it but the fact is we better think about a better way of doing it so that the children the children of today I look at the Millennials of today 50% of them are either the children of the divorce to the disillusions yeah and half of them half of you men grew up with single mothers mmm so you've come out with a very different kind of emotional intelligence because you actually were speaking to those mothers at the table the whole time and they engaged you in conversations in ways that often did not take place if the father would have been at the table right so you come I think it's a very very beautiful new generation of men actually that emerges out of this that has that we don't think of it they were at the table with mom and when mom said how was your day she was not content with just it was good or he was alright she said what she had another question and another question and and you've developed a kind of an emotional literacy that most boomers don't have a clue about men sure that the Millennial man really has available interesting you understand I don't think you've ever thought of that that's great that's great yeah you see I mean watch yourself at the table at breakfast you know there was a whole that conversation did not happen when dad was at the table not that it was not gonna say it was a different conversation mm-hmm so I think families are reorganizing yes yes years is not bad it's not wrong we have blended families we have single-parent families we have gay families we have accordion families we have long-distance families we have the group fastest growing model of couples in America today is the LAT living apart together mm-hmm that is the fastest growing and it's a Boomer model it's the people after 55 ok who are in relationships but don't live with their partner interesting why because they often have their own families because they have their own living arrangement because one of them is still working one of them is already preparing and downsizing lots of different reasons for why they prefer to have the benefits of the connection and of the relationship your own space their own space or because they want to stay closer to their children or grandchildren but the other person has their grandchildren elsewhere its millions millions of course the question of the LAT is what will happen when they get older do you have the same commitment to a person who is aging and getting sick when you have not lived with them and you have maintained so much of your own life because I met you in my 50s I have a whole life and I'm not willing to let go of that life yeah I'm willing to mate to be with you and relationship connecting but I don't want to let go of my I have a whole world of my own you know that's the last model and we don't know what the LAT model will do for public health yeah we know that men you know live better in older age when there is somebody next to them don't take good care of themselves yeah of course should we expect you know moving forward and relationships with our time that monogamy is something that we're gonna be able to do or with the there's always something better option and that it's more available now than ever especially with social media online dating there's a distractions constantly yeah you don't have to leave your house anymore exactly pretty much cheat on your partner while lying next to them in bed but we are bad effin ition already doing serial non-monogamy you know most of us don't come to marriage monogamous we've come to marriage after years of nomadism sexual nomadism so monogamy is a concept that has already been redefined throughout you asked me before about how his marriage changed but monogamy had nothing to do with love for most of history monogamy became about love with romanticism it's the sacred ideal of the romantic ideal because the sacred cow because monogamy means I'm everything I'm it I'm the one I'm chosen I'm unique I'm Eavis and if you are interested in someone else it means I'm not enough mm-hmm versus monogamy which was basically for patrimony and for children mmm you know so so how should we navigate this moving forward I think I mean look if I had talked to you 70 years ago about premarital sex and virginity was a precondition you would have looked at me like this is a taboo this is impossible today premarital sex in the West it's like nobody blinks an eye okay it would have been inconceivable okay if I had talked to you about going to from families of eight ten children to families of one child you would have looked at me inconceivable if I had told you that we were going to be consuming so many children through assisted reproduction inconceivable so today when you say open relationships are not monogamous relationships or periodically non-monogamous or monogamy Shallah Dan Savage or you know or polyamorous people would say can't work impossible you know the fact is monogamy is the new frontier but you can have it as negotiated through divorce or through what most people have always done which is proclaimed monogamy and clandestine adultery or you can do it through a model of transparency in which people have consensual non-monogamy this is it this is the options right what do you think it's gonna be working the most it's gonna be a little bit of everything there are some people who really need stable committed monogamous relationships they don't want open doors and there are other people for which open doors probably should meet the model from the start that's kind of who they are that's their curiosity that's the way they live their life and it's not because they're less committed or less loving it's because their sexuality is organized in a certain way and it lives together with a certain arrangement and all of that is going to be redefined as we go along it's the factor what's going to happen it will be the next frontier but if you see it on the level of marriage people say you know if you say okay let's look under you know you have to look at it from the place of before marriage you know a Swedish philosopher said today monogamy only exists in reality it doesn't exist in your memories and it doesn't exist in your fantasies so this is not because I advocate it it's just this first of all there's nothing to advocate it's very simple that by definition we have multiple sex partners before marriage we are not monogamous anymore in the traditional sense of the word the word has been in flux and we don't really know where it's going we don't what we know is that people still seek to connect people want to love people want somebody who loves them and how that will play itself out is the mysteries of life but the fundamental human needs for love for connection for passion for transcendence will never change the expressions the forms the institutions in which we will seek those fundamental human aspirations will continuously transform that's really how I see the evolution taking place sure what do you think of what I'm saying this is soaking you know it's confusing because you hear so many different options that work that don't work you see people that love each other that go through breakup and divorce you see and then you see the pain and the struggle and the emotional toll that it takes on some people then you see people who are and you know committed monogamous relationships who feel guilty because they want to be able to explore but they they can't because it made this choice and they've committed to it monogamy is a practice we are not by nature biologically evolutionary monogamous it's a practice it's a choice and it's a our makeup no and it's a choice then and monogamy is a continual human you know you have mind you have fantasy you have memory you have a lot of things at what point do we become non-monogamous where does non-monogamy start and all of these concepts are fluid concepts today there is just no way to define it like that so we make our choices and we make compromises and we sometimes don't just do what we want and we often need to think about the consequences of our actions and we need to think about the larger picture and something that may be perfectly desirable for tonight may not be worth it for the next week's in the next year's and I think that in the era of self fulfillment and the right to happiness we don't have more desires today than the previous generations we just feel more entitled to fulfill our desires and we feel that we have a right to be happy my personal happiness to switch the greatest switch is from a social organization in which I think about the well-being of others collective is thinking things about the well-being of others and I sacrifice my own individual needs for the well-being of others to the other side of the continuum is I have a right to pursue my individual needs and the others will have to adapt to it and I think that we are a little bit on the and of the other side at this point we really take ourselves a little very seriously and sometimes at the detriment of other people to whom we do have an obligation and and and a commitment to not just our partners the world the world where should we be somewhere in the middle you think er what's in an examined state I don't know that it's always in the middle but in an examined state in a state that doesn't just say what I like what I feel the fact that I have options doesn't mean I have to exercise all these options the problem of consumer life is that we don't know anymore to make choices same with the cereals in the supermarket why would it be better with love so I could get better I could get better I'm like you know I'm a victim of FOMO you know and how do I know this is the best no you don't yeah when do I find the best no you don't you don't find your partner you choose your partner it's very different you know if you think you're gonna find somebody who is the person who's gonna make you stop looking it doesn't work this way because no it doesn't because at some points your inner rumblings will start up again and then you would say looking you know it's like you just said this is it this is where I decide to put my my roots in this moment you know and I'm gonna and I'm gonna try to deepen them I think we are all living with paradoxes of choice yes you know from from which phone I get but we cannot commodify a partner and just kind of beta test a partner and beta test the relationship and check out to see is it good enough or can I find better l yes you can the fact is you could find other I'm not sure it would be better but you definitely can find other and there are lots of people you can love and there's only a few you can make a life with and they're not always the same a lot of people you can have love stories with right and have beauty but they're not the person you would make a life how do you know when it's the person you can make a life with I think values enter into there a lot more I mean you can have magnificent love stories with people you would never live with right they're just too different from you they have not the same values as you they have not you one wants child one does not one wants to travel the other does not one wants career dear the very major different classes different different felt and showing as they used to say in German you know visions of the world but you can love them you can have a beautiful love story with that person and be transported in your experience with them but you know that that's not the person with whom you're going to build a home a future a trajectory maybe a family if you want that that that's not the person we do and for that you need more of shared vision shared mission shared values stuff that is not just in the domain of feelings but also in the domain of beliefs it's different views about money views about independence and separateness versus Connection views about emotional expressiveness views about tower what did you say that those differences that we have also attract us to other people that we have some of those differences maybe we don't share the same values or beliefs but it's also different unique interesting and so it also brings us together or do you think it's not enough I think that we're the tracks you originally is often what becomes the source of conflict later mm-hmm the very thing that is so attractive because it's different is also the very thing that becomes difficult because it's different interesting so of course it's a mix and match you know but what makes driving relationships is not only feelings it's a mix of feelings actions beliefs touches physicality it's a it's a more all-encompassing thing a beautiful love story can be just about feelings and you can love more people than those that you can make a life with that doesn't mean you make a life with people you don't love but it means that there is a whole other set of ingredients right that enter into the making of a life which is the creation of a world it's a little different and in that world you often can be on the side of you know there's a lot of sentences today that I never heard 20 years ago in couples therapy this is a raw deal I'm not getting my needs met where is my return on investment excuse me excuse me somebody owes you it's like wow it's it's I am in a relationship for what it's gonna give me that is an important piece I don't misunderstand me but I'm also in a relationship for why for what I'm going to give to this person for what I'm going to give if I want children to these children not just for what they're gonna bring to me it's like the level of narcissism has to be shrunken a tiny bit on occasion right exactly like you know I mean I'm part of that same you know landscape but on a fusion I think it's like you calibrate it on occasion some some of us need to really learn to think more about ourselves and some of us really need to think more about others some of us live with the fear that we're gonna be abandoned and some of us live more with the fear that we're gonna lose ourselves some of us are better takers and need to learn to give and some of us are consummate givers and we need to learn to take and often we find a partner who is exactly the missing link and that can be beautiful complementarity if we actually get to use the other person to become more whole to learn from them and it's it's and we need both you need to be able to think about yourself and to know what you want and all of that but you also need to be able to remember that others exist near you or your family your friends you you know you build your loved ones and that that's what will make the difference the day you die and who will show up at your funeral basically I love this conversation I have four questions for you left yeah I feel like I could ask a lot more and I want everyone to make sure they pick up the book mating in captivity will have it linked up here at the end the first one is what are you most grateful for recently in your life recently in my life I had kind of a medical scare so I'm actually very grateful that it turned out to be nothing small boo boo not a big it was a big boo boo I thought it was a big boo boo but it ended up being a so that's that's actually very the first word that comes to me I have you know I spent most of my career in the professional academic world and in the last three years I've really crossed over to the mainstream and that has entered me into Ted and Aspen and the entrepreneur space and summit and through that I mean it's worldwide and and I think that it's been a wonderful taking what I've done in the four walls of my office to a larger platform and being actually a psychologist not just in the therapeutic space but in the larger cultural space in the world that's been grating going digital the idea that I can actually help people and and give people an elevated conversation about relationships and that embraces the complexity and that meets them where they're at through my online courses and through this whole new platform that's been a trip it's been a fantastic creative journey for me it's been just one year so I'm very grateful for that because it's been fun creative new very different for a therapist actually to move into kind of taught leader if you want and being part of a great a more global conversation sure great and I that's I'm actually in many ways I'm much happier today because because I've become more if I miss something I no longer think it's like I used to want you know I'm like okay it's alright I don't have to have gone to three things fully to go back to the beginning of our conversation I feel that today is full even if I haven't benched I like that good things to be grateful for a second question is if someone's looking to get in to find a partner a long-term partner a committed relationship for or marriage what's one piece of advice you would say to go enter into that relationship to find that relationship you can give one piece of advice yes ask yourself what do I want to give to someone don't just ask yourself who do I want to meet and what what characteristics do I want in that person and make a list of all the things that the other person needs to have thinking the reverse what do you want to bring to somebody what do you want to bring in you know what's the love that you want to put out into the world love do caring do the benevolence you know over for another person I think that that's probably much better than the checklist that most people go do I want yes here's what you need to be for me for me to then be interested in you you know be compelling to someone else rather than ask wait for them to dazzle you so that you can swipe in one direction or another okay no and that probably would be the first thing I would say and and that's it that will be the most important one and don't think just a kiss is the best you're not buying a product no it's not the best just deciding at all but neither are you it's just the one that you say this is it because often you know you pick somebody because you're ready but there were plenty of others you met before that could have been fantastic partners for you just you went out there in your life he went ready for that that commitment that decision so you were ready to have beautiful experiences relationships lovers you know and you love these people but you were in your twenties what did you know about life you know about wanting to build something now you're 33 and you say okay now I want to do it so it's the timing its your maturity that makes you make the choice not only the person that you are being dazzled by right so that would be when you go dating I like that question question number three if it's your last day here on earth and your book is gone it's been deleted from history everything you've ever created has been gone for some reason it just got deleted and you're on bed you know everyone you love is there and they give you a piece of paper and they say will you write down the three things that you know to be true about your experience in this world the three truths about what you learned and this is the last thing that will it's the only thing we'll ever know or have left about you what do you think you'd write down about the three truths so I you know I am a connector and an enormous amount of people in my life know each other through me yeah worldwide it's always been something I love to do me because I had no family and I was one child of two people you know sore survivors I I think they're recreating a tribe was something that came very natural to me and I would write I have touched a lot of people who have oh and I will continue to live on in their memories because so many of them are now interconnected I have created a lot of beautiful events that were fun celebratory abundant where a lot of people came together and I I have had a great relationship with the man that I've lived with at least for now for the 30 years 35 years of my life and I've raised two boys who if I was a woman interested in men I would have wanted to date them marry I love it I love it before I ask the final question Esther I want to say that I acknowledge you for for being here and the continuous commitment to the work you do to supporting so many people in the world about navigating relationships and understanding how to have full rich meaningful experiences and relationships I think the work you're doing is so powerful especially today more than now than ever and I just want to acknowledge you for the gift that you bring to so many people so thank you thank you final questions what I ask everyone at the end is what's your definition of greatness oh I went to a company recently and they asked me that question I think irreverence is a big part of it there's gonna be a few words integrity but that's often a reverence not to take the acceptance as the given I don't think that that's because that's what we do or that's how we think that that definition means that it's right or it's true so I am a person who questions I topple sacred cows I open up possibilities I'm rather non-judgmental and I like to shed a whole new light on something that people think they've already heard a lot about and to rethink or kind of challenge the conversation it's that those words go into creativity but greatness is that greatness is when you when you poked at something and when you started out it existed like that and when you end it it became something completely different and I think mating actually you know mating all the courses in general I am counterintuitive I have you know I think people come in I just give it to you like that people have a story every person who comes to therapy or every company who comes to me to cancer they have a story they describe themselves a certain way greatness is when they can come in with one story and leave with a completely different one I love that it's a perfect that dig Esther Perel thank you so much for being here where can we find you online where can we connect with you what's the best place to go all right so it's wws Telecom you obtain with me I connect with you I communicate with you we're in conversation I never her ass but I inspire I'm on facebook I'm on Twitter I'm an Instagram and I'm about actually to release the third online course called rekindling desire that is really once you've read me what can you do how do you bring this home how do you bring this to your relationships committed once or not and to yourself and that's really where this these online courses now are is like it's me and it's not the podcast yet we will talk about but it is me speaking to you about how you take all of these ideas and make them personal and transform them into actions that will change your life I love it Esther Perel thanks so much for coming on I appreciate it it's a pleasure hey guys thanks so much for watching this video I really appreciate it and if you enjoyed this video then make sure to subscribe to my youtube channel you can do that by clicking right here to subscribe because each week we come out with awesome epic and inspiring interviews and messages and videos just for you so click subscribe right here to get notified of new videos every week also if you enjoyed this specific interview we've got a lot of great interviews like this that are uplifting and inspiring so click right here to watch the previous interviews because the people I've had on are pretty cool and epic as well so click here to watch previous interviews click here to subscribe I love you guys and I'll see you very soon

Channel: Lewis Howes

Views: 1,918,385

Rating: 4.8577838 out of 5

Keywords: lewis howes, esther perel, the school of greatness, esther perel the secret to desire in a long term relationship, greatness, interview, esther perel infidelity, esther perel mating in captivity, 2016, mating in captivity, motivation, inspiration, ted talk speaker, lewis howes podcast, esther perel why happy couples cheat, relationships goals, relationship goals, relationship problems, relationship advice, infedelity, dan savage, where should we begin, desire, 2017, love advice, love

Id: VLhMOr0AH8I

Length: 77min 29sec (4649 seconds)

Published: Tue Feb 02 2016

Reddit Comments

[u/ShimmyNeed]

When Esther talks we should all listen.

[u/[deleted]]

This is great