Jordan Peterson vs The Gender Pay Gap

let me put a quote to you from the bank well you say there are whole disciplines in universities forthrightly hostile towards men these are the areas of study dominated by the postmodern stroke neo-marxist claim the Western culture in particular is an oppressive structure created by white men to dominate and exclude women but then I want to put minorities - ok but I want to put to you that here in the UK for example let's take that as an example the gender pay gap stands at just over 9% you've got women at the BBC recently saying that the broadcaster is illegally paying them less than men to do the same job you've got only seven women running the top footsie 100 companies so it seems to a lot of women that they're still being dominated and excluded to quote your words back to you it does seem that way but multivariate analysis of the pay gap indicated it doesn't exist that's 9 percent cap ager that's a gap between median hourly earnings between men and women yeah but there's multiple reasons for that one of them is gender but it's not the only reason like if you're a social scientist worth worth your salt you never do a univariate analysis like you say well women in aggregate are paid less than men okay well then we break it down by age we break it down by occupation we break it down by interest we break it down by personality but you're saying basically it doesn't matter if women aren't getting to the top because that's what's skewing that gender pay gap isn't it you're saying well that's just a fact no I say you're going to get to the top no I'm not saying it doesn't matter either you're saying I think you're remindful reasons for it give it time - why should women put up with those reasons why women because they should put up with it I'm saying that the claim that the wage gap between men and women is only due to sex is wrong and it is wrong there's no doubt about that the multivariate analysis have been done well I give you but we have multi varied analysis I'm saying that 9% pay gap exists that's a gap between men and women I'm not saying why it exists but it exists now if you're a woman what seems pretty unfair you have to say why it exists but do you agree that it's unfair if you not necessary and on average you're getting paid nine percent less than a man that's not fair is it it depends on why it's happening I can give you an example okay there's a personality trait known as agreeableness agreeable people are compassionate and polite and agreeable people get paid less than didn't less agreeable people for the same job women are more agreeable than men again a vast generalizations agreeable yes that's true but that's right and some women get paid more than men so you were saying that by and large women are too agreeable to get the pay rises I see so I'm saying that that's one component of a multivariate equation that predicts celery it accounts for maybe five percent of the variance something like this you need about the other twenty we need about another eighteen factors one of which is gender and there is prejudice there's no doubt about that but it accounts for a much smaller proportion of the variance in the pay gap then the radical feminists claim okay so rather than denying the pay gap exists which is what you did at the beginning of this conversation shouldn't you say to women rather than being agreeable and not asking for a pay raise go and ask for a pay right make yourself disagreeable with your book oh definitely there's that but I also didn't deny it existed I denied it existed because of gender okay because I'm very very very careful with my words so the pay gap exists you accept that but you're saying I mean the pay gap between men and women exists you're saying it's not because of gender it's because women are too agreeable to ask for pay rises certainly one of the reasons okay one of the reason so why not get them to ask for a pay rise I've done that many many times in my career and they just don't oh they do it all the time you can it's so one of the things that you do as a clinical psychologist is assertiveness training so you might say often you treat people for anxiety you treat them for depression and you and maybe the next most common category after that would be assertiveness training and so I've had many many women extraordinarily competent women in my clinical and insulting practice and we put together strategies for their career development that involved continual pushing competing for higher wages often tripled their wages within a five-year period she celebrated of course so do you do you agree that you would be happy if that pay gap was eliminated completely because that's the radical feminists are saying it would depend on how it was eradicated and how the how the disappearance of it was measured and you're saying it's at a cost of men that's a problem oh there's all sorts of things that it could be at the cost of it could even be at the cost of women's own interests so because they might not be happy if they could equal pay no because it might interfere with other things that are causing the pay gap that women are choosing tonight having children well or choosing careers that actually happen to be paid less it's women do a lot of but why shouldn't women have the right to choose not to have children or the right to choose those demanding because they can yeah that's fine but you're saying that makes them unhappy i and lodge I'm saying that that no I'm not saying that I'm I and I actually haven't said that so far just saying it makes them miserable no I said that what was making them miserable was having part was having weak partners that makes them miserable but I would say that many women around the age of I would say between 28 and 32 have a career family crisis that they have to deal with and I think that's partly because of the for short and timeframe that women have to contend with like women have to get the major pieces of their life put together faster than man which is also partly why men aren't under so much pressure to grow up so because for the typical woman she has to have her career and family in order pretty much by the time she's 35 because otherwise the options start to run out and so that puts a tremendous amount of stress on women especially at the end of their 20s I think I take issue with the idea of the typical woman because you know all women are different and I want to just put another quote to you from the books last day and in some ways than the same in others okay you say women become more vulnerable when they have children no and you talked to one of your youtube interviews about crazy harpy sisters so a simple question is gender equality a myth in your view is that something that's just never gonna happen it depends on what you mean by equality nobody do you mean a lien and we're getting the same opportunities fairly people we could get to a point where people were treated fairly or more fairly I mean people are treated pretty fairly in Western culture already but we can look they're really not though are they I mean otherwise why would there only be seven women running footsie 100 companies in the UK why why would there still be a pay gap which we've all got ladies why are women at the BBC saying that they're getting paid illegally less than men to do the same job that's not fair sort of the first question their brothers are complicated questions seven seven women repeat that one there's seven women running the top footsie 100 companies in the UK well for that first it might be why would you want to do that why would a minute man want to do it I don't know there's a certain number of men although not that many who are perfectly willing to sacrifice virtually all of their life to the pursuit of a high-end career so their work these are men that are very intelligent they're usually very very conscientious they're very driven they're very high-energy they're very healthy and they're willing to work 70 or 80 hours a week non-stop specialised at one thing to get to the top so you as a women are just more sensible they don't want that it's not a nice little I'm saying that's part of it definitely and so I worry you don't think there are barriers in their way that prevent them getting to the top there are some barriers yeah like other like men for example I mean to get to the top of any organisation is incredibly competitive enterprise and the men that you're competing with are simply not going to roll over and say please take the position absolutely all-out warfare is gender equality a myth I don't know what you mean by the question men and women aren't the same and they won't be the same that doesn't mean they can't be treated fairly is gender equality desirable if it means equality of outcome then almost certainly it's undesirable that's already been demonstrated in Scandinavia because in Scandinavia equality of outcome is undesirable what men and women won't sort themselves into the same categories if you leave them alone to do it off their own accord I've already seen that in Scandinavia it's 22 why female nurses to male something like that it might not be quite that extreme approximately the same male engineers two female engineers and that's a consequence of the free choice of men and women in the societies that have gone farther than any other societies to make gender equality the purpose of the law those are in eradicable differences you can eradicate them with tremendous social pressure and tyranny but if you leave men and women to make their own choices you will not get equal outcome right so you're saying that anyone who believes in equality whether you call them feminists school and whatever you want to call them should basically give up because it ain't gonna happen only if they're aiming at equality of outcome so you're saying give people equality of opportunity that's fine not only fine it's eminently desirable for everyone for individuals and for society but still women aren't gonna make it that's what it really depends on your measurement techniques they're doing just fine in medicine in fact there are far more female physicians than there are male physicians there there are lots of lots of disciplines that are absolutely dominated by women many many disciplines and they're doing great so let me put something else to you from the boat you say the introduction of the equal pay for equal work argument immediately complicates even salary comparison beyond practicality for one simple reason who decides what work is equal it's not possible so the simple question is do you believe in equal pay well I made the argument there so I could depends and say you don't because I'm people listening to you will just say I mean are we going back to the Dutch people actually aren't listening I'm just being projected and I'm hearing you basically saying women need to just accept they're never gonna make it on equal terms equal outcomes is what how you defined it no I I would go well I might as well just go and play with my Cyndi dolls like give us a ride at school because I'm not gonna get the top job I want because there's someone sitting there saying it's not possible that's what they said it's a it's a bad social law I didn't say that women shouldn't be striving for the top or anything like that because I don't believe that for a second striving for the top but you're gonna put all those hurdles in their way as has been it in their way for centuries and that's fine saying that's fine no no I think I read the page silly I do I think that's silly I really do I mean look look at your situation you're hardly unsuccessful yeah Maya how do you bite hard to get exactly good a battling is good this is always kind of notable but you talk about man let me just put another thing to you from the bar you're saying you have to be idle for a high quality position well I notice in your book you talk about real conversations between men containing quote an underlying threat of physicality oh there's no doubt about that what about real conversations between women is that something or are we sort of too amenable and reasonable no it's just that the domain of physical conflict is sort of off-limits for you we're going to get where I've got yeah but what does that make me I don't know man I don't imagine that you've yeah to some degree I suspect you're not very agreeable so that's the thing successful women I'm not very agreeable right actually in this conversation at least and I'm sure I served your career well successful women though hmm basically have to wear the trousers in your view they have to sort of become men to succeed is what you're saying well if the guys had to fight succeed against men certainly masculine traits are going to be helpful I mean one of the things I do in my counseling practice for example when I'm consulting with women who are trying to advance their careers is to teach them how to negotiate and to and to be able to say no and to not be easily pushed around and to be formidable and you need to if you're gonna be successful you need to be smart conscientious and tough well here's a radical idea why don't the bosses adopt some male bosses shall we say adopt some female trait so the women don't have to fight and get their sharp elbows out for the pay raises it's just accepted if they're doing the same job they get the same pay well I would say partly because it's not so easy to determine what constitutes the same job and almost because arguably yeah there are still men dominating our industries our society and therefore they've dictated the terms for so long that women have to battle - no that's not true it's not true so for example well I can give you an example very quickly so I worked with women who worked high-powered law firms in Canada for about 15 years and they were as competent and put together as anybody you would ever meet and we were trying to figure out how to further their careers and there was a huge debate in Canadian society at that point that was basically ran along the same lines as your argument is that if the law firms didn't use these masculine criteria then perhaps women would do better but the market sets the damn game it's like and the market is dominated by men no it's not the market is dominated by women they make 80% of the consumer decisions that's not the case what 80 people who stay at home looking after children by and large they are still women so they're going out doing the shopping but that is chained they make all the decisions okay so the market is driven by women not men right okay and if you're a lawyer you don't pay more for the same sort of goods that's been proven that men for the you buy a blue bicycle helmet it's gonna cost less than a pink one anyway we'll come on to that partly because men are less agreeable right so this so they won't put up with it I want to ask you is it not desirable to have some of those female traits you're talking about I'd say that's a generalization but you've used the words female traits is it not desirable to have some of them at the top of business I mean maybe they wouldn't if they don't predict they don't predict success in the workplace the things that predict success in the workplace are intelligence and conscientiousness agreeableness negatively predicts success in the workplace negative emotion saying that women aren't intelligent enough to run these talk no I didn't say that is it that female traits don't predict success but I didn't say that intelligence wasn't I didn't say that intelligence and conscientious when you were saying it's just by implication or not female traits oh no I mean that's very nervous her not saying that at all a women is intelligent than men no no they're not no they that did that on that's pretty clear the average IQ for a woman and the average IQ for a man is identical there is some debate about the flatness of the distribution which is something that James d'amour pointed out for example in his memo but there's no difference at all in general cognitive ability there's no difference to speak of in conscientiousness women are a bit more orderly than men and men are a little bit more industrious than women but the difference isn't big but averages into corneum and you aren't necessarily okay but no so why are they not feminine traits why are they not desirable at the top of feminine traits why are they not desirable the top it's hard to say I'm just laying out the empirical evidence like we know them we know the traits that predict success but we also know because companies by and large have not been dominated by women over the centuries there's nothing to compare it to it's an experiment true and it could be the case that if companies modified their behavior and became more feminine they would be successful but there's no evidence for it I'm not neither doubtful nor non doubtful there's no evidence why not give it a go as the radically evidence suggests well it's fine like if someone wants to start a company and make it more feminine and compassionate let's say and caring in its overall orientation towards its workers and towards the marketplace and that's a perfectly reasonable experiment to run my point is that there is no evidence that those traits predict success in the workplace and there's evidence is right well that's not that's not really the case women have been in the workplace for well at least ever since I've been around the representation of women in the workplace is being about 50 percent so we've run the experiment for a fairly reasonable period of time but not no certainly not for centuries [Music]

Channel: ManOfAllCreation

Views: 3,512,451

Rating: 4.9064016 out of 5

Keywords: jordan peterson gender pay gap, jordan peterson gender, jordan peterson on gender, jordan peterson pay, jordan peterson the wage gap, jordan peterson wage gap, jordan peterson the gender pay gap, jordan peterson, jordan, peterson, the gender pay gap, gender, pay, gap, jordan peterson vs, jordan peterson vs the gender pay gap, gender wage gap, jordan peterson gender wage gap

Id: Xg2psply4no

Length: 16min 53sec (1013 seconds)

Published: Fri Jan 19 2018

Reddit Comments

[u/woobify]

I liked the “what’s your favorite female author” interview

[u/Dodgerfan100]

I fucking hate gender pay gap enthusiasts with zero evidence and inability to have a formidable conversation...

[u/i_broke_wahoos_leg]

I could only go 6 minutes. Fuck me. I understand that reality is sometimes a hard pill to swallow, especially when it is contrary to your beliefs and understand the negative emotional response to the person laying it out but you would hope a journalist would be able to see the forest through the trees. I'm just glad that from what I saw the author handled it like a champ.

[u/Im_a_Mime]

Does anyone hate this interviewer as much as I do? She’s seems like a complete idiot who has a chip on her shoulder.

[u/mostly_sarcastic]

I've had this argument with far too many persons who simply refuse to believe that the gender pay gap isn't solely based on gender. There are many variables at play here: level of education of the person, location of work being done (think cost of living), years of experience in the industry, and most importantly, the ACTUAL OCCUPATION. A person with a PhD in Maths and a grade school teacher are simply not going to have the same salary.

That said, there are many occupations that are gender-dominated. Men tend to dominate hands-on and technical fields, whereas women tend to dominate the Arts and education, and this dominance is based on PREFERENCE. And, based on the industries themselves, persons in hands-on and technical fields typically outearn persons in the Arts and education sectors. There are very few instances of a male outearning a woman simply cos he's a male (this is assuming both persons work in the same industry, have the same level of education, same credentials, same job experience / time with the company, and same ability).

EDIT: added the fact that male dominated fields vs. female dominated fields are based on personal preferences. Men tend to prefer to work in hands-on, technical fields whereas women tend to prefer to work in fields that are more related to the Arts and education.

EDIT II: @ /u/hepheuua, I'm not making the same mistake. It is a fact that men dominate hands-on, technical fields and women dominate the Arts and education-based careers. I agree with most of what you're arguing being that women and men were (I no longer find this to be true) brought up in manners that would lead them down certain career paths. But that doesn't invalidate the fact of the technical v. Arts argument I've made. It is NOT a fact, however, that women are categorically earning less than men, per my comments above. And to your comment about entering "hostile environments," this goes both ways. Men who enter female dominated fields often receive the same treatment. I will concede this though: it's getting better. For everyone.

[u/debo1979]

Men are half the working population in the US, but are 93% of workplace fatalities. Is that because they tend to work in higher risk/higher reward (paying) occupations?

[u/missblackeyelinerr]

“There’s a gender pay gap between women and men in the UK.”

“Well women are more agreeable than men.”

“So you’re saying women aren’t too agreeable to get their deserved salaries?

“No, no. Not at all.”

“Female traits don’t predict success in the workplace, intelligence and conciousness do.”

“So you think the problem is that.. women aren’t intelligent enough?”

Jordan Peterson is very difficult to listen to and i imagine very challenging to interview because he chooses his words in such a way that you MUST make assumptions as to what he’s implying. He’ll make a very blatant, universally agreed upon statement and then you’re forced to extrapolate what you can. And then no matter what you assume you’re dubbed crazy.

This interviewer in particular was obviously falling off and assuming too much, but I think every time somebody has to refute Peterson some version of this happens.

[u/DyanRavis]

I could've watched this all day. As frustrating as it was, I liked watching how he was going to react to her planting whatever she wanted.

[u/Kramerpalooza]

Everybody is all for science and data analysis.... until it indicates something against what they want or the answer that they were looking for.