[MUSIC] >> HELLO AND WELCOME ONCE AGAIN TO "FATHER SPITZER'S UNIVERSE." WE ARE LOCATED AT THE INTERSECTION OF FAITH AND REASON. I'M DOUG KECK, YOUR HOST AT OUR EWTN STUDIOS IN IRONDALE, ALABAMA, ON MOTHER ANGELICA WAY, WHERE IT STARTED IN 1981. AND MOTHER'S MISSION CONTINUES TO GO OUT THROUGH THE UNIVERSE AND WE DEPEND ON YOUR FEEDBACK FOR THIS PROGRAM. SEND US EMAIL QUESTIONS, FACEBOOK, TWEET US ON TWITTER. YOU CAN FIND OUT ALL OF THE INFORMATION ABOUT FATHER SPITZER ON HIS WEBSITE MAGISCENTER.COM AND AS WE GO THROUGH CREDIBLECATHOLIC.COM, WHICH WE'RE DOING ON THE PROGRAM CURRENTLY, TALKING ABOUT PURGATORY FROM THE BIG BOOK AS THEY WOULD SAY ASSOCIATION STAY WITH US, MUCH MORE AHEAD WITH FATHER SPITZER MOMENTARILY. SPEAKING OF BOOKS, WE HAVE A WONDERFUL BOOK BY OUR GOOD FRIEND, A DOMINICAN, FATHER BRYAN MALADY AND THE BOOK IS THE DECALOGUE DECODED AND IT'S WHAT YOU NEVER LEARNED ABOUT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS OR MAYBE THESE DAYS ARE AFRAID TO ASK. IT'S AVAILABLE THROUGH THE EWTN RELIGIOUS CATALOG. A FABULOUS TEACHER, NOT QUITE AS GOOD AS FATHER SPITZER BUT THIS IS FATHER SPITZER'S SHOW. WE TURN TO FATHER SPITZER. GREAT TO SEE YOU MY FRIEND. HOW ARE YOU? >> DOING WELL AND GREAT TO HEAR YOU AGAIN, DOUG. THAT WAS A FINE CLIP. >> THAT'S RIGHT THERE. DON'T TELL FATHER MULADY. IF YOU WILL START THINGS OFF WITH A PRAYER? >> YOU BET. IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT AMEN. HEAVENLY FATHER WE GIVE YOU THANKS FOR ALL OF THE BLESSINGS THAT YOU GIVE US ESPECIALLY THIS MINISTRY. WE ASK YOU TO SEND YOUR HOLY SPIRIT ON DOUG AND MYSELF AND OUR WHOLE AUDIENCE THIS DAY SO THAT WHATEVER WE SAY AND WHATEVER OUR AUDIENCE HEARS, MAY BE BROUGHT TO FRUITION IN YOUR WILL FOR THE GOOD OF YOUR PEOPLE, YOUR CHURCH AND YOUR KINGDOM. PROTECT US DEAR LORD AND INSPIRE US AND GUIDE US THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD, MANOR. AND MARY SEAT OF WISDOM PRAY FOR US. IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT, AMEN. >> RIGHT. VERY GOOD. AND THE EXCITING SHOW WE DID AT NAPA WILL AIR NEXT WEEK AND WE HOPE PEOPLE ENJOY THAT. I THINK THE PEOPLE ON LOCATION DID DO THAT. YOU'RE INTO SURVEYS AND STATISTICS. YOU'RE A WHIZ WITH THAT STUFF. AND I KNOW RECENTLY WE HAD TALKED ABOUT ON SHOW ABOUT THAT PEW STUDY THAT CAME OUT ABOUT THE REAL PRESENCE TALK ABOUT LESS THAN 50 PERCENT. BUT IT WAS INTERESTING BECAUSE DELVING DEEPER INTO IT ONE OF THE WEB SITES, IT WAS POINTED OUT ONLY 26 PERCENT OF U.S. CATHOLICS UNDER 40 BELIEVE IN THE REAL PRESENCE. AS MUCH AS IT MAY BE 50 PERCENT IF YOU GET TO THOSE UNDER 40 YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ALMOST -- ONLY 25 PERCENT, 25, 26 PERCENT, YOU KNOW. SO IT'S SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT. >> OH, YEAH. I THINK FIRST OF ALL THE CATECHESIS ITSELF IS VERY POOR. SECONDLY I DON'T THINK THAT PEOPLE REALLY UNDERSTAND TRANSUBSTANTIATION. I THINK MUCH OF OUR TEACHERS DON'T UNDERSTAND TRANCE SUBSTANTIATION AND SECONDLY HOW DID JESUS INTEND IT, THAT DOUBLE COLLAPSE OF TIME THAT WE TALKED ABOUT BEFORE ON THIS SHOW. I DON'T THINK PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT -- THE HISTORICAL JESUS AND NOW THE RISEN JESUS OF COURSE, HOW HE UNDERSTANDS THE COLLAPSE OF TIME INTO -- FROM THE PRESENT INTO THE PAST MOMENT. AND SO THAT'S A REAL DIFFICULTY. AND THE THIRD THING, JUST AN EXAMINE OF TWO RECENT EUCHARISTIC MIRACLES COULD REALLY GET MEME THINKING, BECAUSE AS I POINTED OUT, THE ONE IN BUENOS AIRES WHICH WAS OVER SEEN BY ARCHBISHOP AND NOW POPE FRANCIS, THAT ONE WHERE THE WHITE BLOOD CELLS ARE EMBEDDED IN THE VENTRICLE WALLS OF THE TISSUE THAT THE EUCHARISTIC HOST TURNED INTO THAT IS SO AMAZING BECAUSE OF COURSE THE ONLY WAY YOU COULD EXTRACT THAT TISSUE FROM THE HEART IS IN IT WERE A LIVE BEATING HEART, AND THE ONLY WAY THEY WOULD EMBED THEMSELVES IN THE VENTRICLE WALL IS IF THE MAN HAD BEEN SEVERELY BEATEN AROUND THE CHEST. SO IF YOU LOOK AT THIS FROM AN OBJECTIVE POINT OF VIEW WHAT IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH GOING TO DO? BEAT A GUY HALF SENSELESS AND THEN OPEN HIM UP WHILE HE'S STILL ALIVE TO GET THE TISSUE OUT OF THE LEFT UPPER VENTRICLE, YOU KNOW, WALL OF THE BEATING HEART SO THAT THEY CAN PRODUCE THIS SAMPLE THAT WAS -- I MEAN HOW COULD YOU FRAUDULENTLY MAKE THAT TISSUE ARISE OUT OF A EUCHARISTIC HOST AND I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING QUITE AMAZING ABOUT IT. BUT I THINK WE NEED TO DO A MUCH BETTER JOB NOT JUST CATACLYSMICALLY BUT TO SHOW EVIDENCE OF WHAT POINTS TO THE PRESENCE OF JESUS IN THE EUCHARIST. AND THAT'S BEEN A REAL PROBLEM. AND AGAIN WE TRY TO DO THAT IN THOSE SEVEN ESSENTIAL MODULES, AND MODULE NUMBER FIVE, WHEN WE BRING UP 20 AND 21 CENTURY SCIENTIFICALLY VALIDATED MIRACLES WE ACTUALLY BRING UP THAT EUCHARISTIC MIRACLE NOT FOR CATECHIZING ON THE EUCHARIST BUT FOR THE PURPOSES REALLY OF TRYING TO POINT TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AS THE DEFINITIVE CHURCH INSTITUTED BY JESUS CHRIST. >> THIS PERSON MADE THE COMMENT, THE AUTHOR SAID IF YOU WANT PEOPLE TO BE IN THE REAL PRESENCE TREAT THE EUCHARIST AS THOUGH IT'S GOD AND BACK THAT UP WITH SOUND CATECHESIS EMPHASIZING THE SAME. IT SEEMS LIKE SOMETIMES -- AND I KNOW WE HAVE TO BE INDICATE BECAUSE THE CHURCH WANTS TO MAKE SURE THINGS ARE WHAT THEY ARE BEFORE THEY SAY THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE. BUT SOMETIMES IT SEEMS LIKE WE'RE A LITTLE EMBASED BY THESE THINGS. WE HAVE THESE WONDERFUL EVIDENCES THESE KINDS OF THINGS, AND THE LEVEL OF BEING PLAYED UP ALWAYS SEEMS TO BE THAT IT ISN'T AT ALL, THAT IT'S ALMOST PLAYED DOWN. >> OH, YEAH. AND I THINK -- AT SOME POINT WHEN YOU HAVE ENOUGH SCIENTIFIC VALIDATION OF COURSE YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO PUT IN PROPER QUALIFIERS, RIGHT? FOR EXAMPLE THE SHROUD OF TURIN, YOU HAVE TO SAY, LOOK, THE SHROUD OF TURIN HAS NOT BEEN CONCLUSIVELY PROVEN TO BE THE BURIAL CLOTH OF JESUS CHRIST. HOWEVER YOU MAY WANT TO KNOW THAT WE HAVE THESE 25 DIFFERENT SCIENTIFIC VALIDATIONS THAT IT IS NOT ONLY THE BURIAL CLOTH OF JESUS CHRIST AND THAT IT REALLY CONTAINS A SIGNIFICANT EVIDENCE OF THE RESURRECTION. SO OF COURSE YOU SHOULD PROPERLY QUALIFY IT. I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THAT. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WHY WOULDN'T WE BE TALKING ABOUT THE I'D RATHER SCIENTIFIC VALIDATION OF THAT CLOTH AND THE EVIDENCE FOR THE RESURRECTION ON IT, LIKE 6 TO 8 BILLION WATTS OF LIGHT ENERGY IS THE ONLY KNOWN WAY WE HAVE OF EXPLAINING A PERFECT THREE-DIMENSION PHOTOGRAPHIC NEGATIVE IMAGE ON A NONPHOTOGRAPHICALLY-SENSITIVE CLOTH LIKE A LINEN. AND, BY THE WAY, THE RECENT SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE WHICH I HAVEN'T DISCUSSED REGARDING THE DATING ON THE SHROUD OF TURIN, IT'S JUST COME OUT IN REALLY THE PAST THREE OR FOUR MONTHS, WERE THIS TRYSTAN CASA BIANCA WHO IS A FRENCH RESEARCHER WHO GOT A HOLD BY A FREEDOM OF INFORMATION REQUEST AND HE FINAL GOT HOLD OF THE 1988 DATA, THE RAW DATA FROM THE CARBON DATING IN 1988 OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN. SO IT TOOK ALMOST 30 YEARS PRACTICALLY, YOU KNOW, 31 YEARS TO FINALLY GET A RELEASE FROM THE BRITISH MUSEUM TO GET THE RAW DATA OVER TO THE RESEARCHERS WHO COULD ANALYZE IT. AND WHAT DID THEY FIND? THEY FOUND THERE WAS SO MUCH STRATIFICATION AMONG THOSE SAMPLES -- THIS IS LIKE RIDICULOUS, FROM SAMPLE TO SAMPLE, THERE'S SO MUCH STRATIFICATION, THERE'S NO WAY THAT DATING COULD HAVE BEEN RELIABLE. ABSOLUTELY NO WAY. AND THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT WAS VALIDATED BY DR. RAY ROGERS ALMOST -- IN 1998, MAYBE 10 YEARS AFTER THE 1988 CARBON DATING WHERE HE SAW, BY USING FIBERS THAT HE HAD GOTTEN FROM THE VERY SAME PLACE WHERE THE SAMPLE HAS BEEN REMOVED FOR THE 1988 CARBON DATING, HE FOUND THERE WERE COT DONE FIBERS MIXED IN WITH THE LINEN FIBERS THAT ARE THROUGHOUT THE SHROUD. THE SHROUD MADE OF LINEN AND IT'S 99 PERCENT LINEN BUT OF COURSE YOU HAVE IN THE PLACES WHERE THE SHROUD WAS PATCHED COTTON FIBERS AND FIBERS MIXED IN BETWEEN. SO HE GOT THESE FIBERS AND HE ACTUALLY -- YOU KNOW THE SAMPLE FROM THE SAME AREA OF THE SAMPLE, SAW THESE COTTON FIBERS AND DID THE CHEMICAL PYROLYSIS AND THE SPECTROSCOPY AND ALSO THE MASS SPECTROSCOPY AND HE CAME UP WITH THERE'S NO POSSIBLE WAY THAT THIS SAMPLE THAT WAS TAKEN REFLECTED THE REST OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN, THE LINEN. SO WE NEED A NEW CARBON DATING. BUT I CAN'T TELL YOU FOR CERTAIN WHAT A NEW DECENT CARBON DATING WOULD, YOU KNOW, BE LIKE. BUT IF WE CAN USE THE OTHER DATING TESTS FROM -- FOR EXAMPLE RAM AN LASER SPECTROSCOPY OR THE FOURIER-TRANSFORM INFRARED SPECTROSCOPY OR -- THERE'S JUST NO POSSIBLE WAY THAT DATING CAME FROM THE 14TH OR 15TH CENTURY. IT'S WAY BACK AROUND 50 A.D. AND THEN WHEN YOU COMPARE THAT ALSO WITH OTHER FINDINGS, YOU KNOW, THAT WE HAVE GATHERED PARTICULARLY, 1240 COINCIDENCES WITH THE SUDARIUM WHICH HAS A PROVENANCE TO THE 1600S, DO YOU KNOW THE ODDS OF REPLICATING 124 DIFFERENT IRREGULAR WOUNDS, BLOOD STAINS FROM WOUNDS THAT CAME FROM THE CROWN OF THORNS AND THE BEATING OF THE FACE THAT'S MANIFEST IN THESE TWO IMAGES. YOU HAVE ALMOST A PERFECT COINCIDENCE OF 124 OF THESE, YOU KNOW BLOOD STAINS. THE ODDS OF THIS HAPPENING BY PURE CHANCE WITHOUT BOTH CLOTHS TOUCHING THE SAME BLOODY FACE IS ASTRONOMICAL. IT'S ASTRONOMICALLY ASTRONOMICAL. IT'S BEYOND BELIEF. SO I MEAN, YEAH, I THINK THESE TWO CLOTHS TOUCHED THE SAME FACE. WE HAVE A PROVENANCE THAT GOES BACK TO THE 6 HUNDRED'S. I HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT THE SHROUD GOES BACK TO 6 HUNDRED OR AS I TOTALLY BELIEVE, BEFORE 6 HUNDRED, AROUND 50A.D. WHICH MATCHES THE COINS THAT ARE ON THE MAN'S EYES WHICH HAVE THESE ENIGMAS THAT ARE PARTICULAR TO A SPECIAL ENIGMATIC DATING DIMENSIONS OF THE PONTIUS PILATE MINTING OF ROMAN LEPTONS IN 29A.D., VERY CLOSE TO THE TIME OF JESUS' CRUCIFIX. SO WHAT'S MY THOUGHT? MY THOUGHT IS YOU GET THAT NEW CARBON SAMPLE. I CAN'T TELL YOU 100 PERCENT IT'S GOING TO COME OUT PRETTY CLOSE TO 50 A.D. BUT WHEN ALL OF THE PURIFICATIONS ARE DONE, WHEN WE GET PURE CARBON SAMPLES FROM THE INTERIOR OF THE THREADS WHICH WE CAN NOW DO THAT WERE NOT AVAILABLE IN 1988 I AM VERY CERTAIN THAT IT WILL COME OUT VERY CLOSE TO AROUND 50, 100A.D., PLUS OR MINUS 150 YEARS. IT'S PROBABLY ABOUT A 95 PERCENT CONFIDENCE LEVEL. BUT WE STILL HAVE TO DO THE TESTS. WE HAVE TO DO THEM DECENTLY. WE HAVE TO DO THEM FROM SEVEN PLACES ON THE SHROUD AND MAKE SURE WHAT WE'RE GETTING IS THE ACTUAL LINEN OF THE SHROUD AND NOT THINGS MIXED IN WITH CONTAMINANTS OR WITH COTTON FIBRILS THAT ARE USED TO PATCH THE CLOTH AND ET CETERA. BUT I THINK WHEN ALL OF THE PROPER PRECAUTIONS ARE TAKEN I'M CONFIDENT BUT I CAN'T TELL YOU 100 PERCENT BEFORE THE TEST BUT I WOULD SAY THERE'S PLENTY OF EVIDENCE THERE. LET'S JUST DEEP EXAMINING THE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE AND CHEAP TALKING ABOUT IT AND LET'S TALK ABOUT THESE MIRACLES AND LOOK AT WHAT THE SCIENTIFIC VALIDATIONS SHOW, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO GET TO A POINT WHERE WE HAVE A VERY SCIENTIFICALLY PLAUSIBLE CASE THAT CAN BE MADE NOT ONLY FOR JESUS IN THE SHROUD OF TURIN AND HIS RESURRECTION; I THINK WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT THESE MIRACLES AND WE'RE GOING TO SEE VALID EVIDENCE FOR THE SAINTS AND THE APPARITIONS AND THE EUCHARISTIC MIRACLES AND ET CETERA. AND, BY THE WAY, THIS INGSTRAM CASE, THE MIRACLE THAT WAS ASSOCIATED WITH SIREN RIDGE FULTON SHEEN WHO IS GOING TO BECOME BEATIFIED ON THIS MIRACLE. YOU HAVE A 7-0 VOTE FROM THE PANEL THAT WAS CONVENED BY THE VATICAN FOR THE MIRACLE AND A 7-0 VOTE IT'S LIKE COMPLETE CERTITUDE THIS THING ACTUALLY OCCURRED. AND WHY? BECAUSE THAT LITTLE BOY WAS STILLBORN AND REMAINED WITHOUT A HEARTBEAT FOR 61 MINUTES. THAT'S NOT 61 SECONDS. IT'S 61 MINUTES, OVER AN HOUR, THIS BOY IS WITHOUT A HEARTBEAT. THAT MEANS NO OXYGEN GOING TO THE BRAIN. 61 MINUTES LATER, THIS BOY GOES RIGHT TO A REGULAR HEART BEAT. SO THE MOTHER HAS BEEN PRAYING THROUGH THE INTERCESSION OF FULTON SHEEN, THE WHOLE TIME AND 61 MINUTES LATER THIS BOY'S HEARTBEAT RETURNS AT NORMAL LEVEL AND HE HAS NO BRAIN DAMAGE NO, TISSUE DAMAGE -- YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME. OF COURSE THE ENTIRE SCIENTIFIC PANEL VOTED 7-0 FOR NO NATURAL PHYSICAL EXPLANATION BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ANY. REALLY, SPEAKING VERY BLUNTLY THAT BOY SHOULD HAVE SIGNIFICANT MENTAL CHALLENGES, SIGNIFICANT TISSUE DECAY. AND DEPRIVED THE OXYGEN FOR 61INS? WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE. IT'S A MIRACLE TO ME. NOW OF COURSE THERE'S NO SCIENTIFIC TEST FOR A MIRACLE BECAUSE SCIENTIFIC TESTS ACCOUNT FOR NATURAL OBSERVATIONS AND MIRACLES ARE SUPERNATURAL BUT YOU CAN CERTAINLY ASCERTAIN FROM NATURAL CAUSATION AND SCIENTIFIC TESTS THAT THERE'S NO PLAUSIBLE NATURAL EXPLANATION FOR THIS. WE'RE OUT OF PHYSICAL CAUSES. YOU KNOW, HEY, THE INGSTRAM BOY, WHAT DOES THAT POINT TO? THAT FULTON SHEEN WAS BLESSED. >> I SUPPORT FULTON SHEEN, ESPECIALLY WITH MOTHER ANGELICA, THE PRECURSOR TO HER WAS FULTON J. SHEEN IN THE USE OF MEDIA IN THE UNITED STATES. >> SURE. >> LET'S TALK ABOUT PURGATORY, OKAY, SINCE THAT'S THE TOPIC WE'RE ON. BUT WE'RE ALSO -- WE HAVE QUESTIONS FOR US FROM PEOPLE THAT WROTE TO US. HERE IS SOMEBODY THAT WROTE TO US AROUND THE HORRIBLE RECENT SHOOTINGS THAT HAPPENED AND WANTED TO GET YOUR TAKE ON IT. DEAR FATHER SPITZER WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THE MASS SHOOTINGS WE'RE EXPERIENCING LATELY? COULD IT BE DEMONIC AS WE STRAYED FROM CHRISTIAN MORALS? ARE THERE PRAYERS TO STOP EVENTS FROM HAPPENING IN THE FIRST PLACE? WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THIS. THANK YOU. AND LOVE YOUR UNIVERSE. THIS IS LORI. >> THAT YOU, LORI. I'M GLAD YOU DO LIKE THE UNIVERSE. JUST VERY QUICKLY, FIRST OF ALL, THE IDEA THAT THERE ARE EMOTIONAL CAUSES OF THIS PERSON'S ACTIVITIES TO SHOOT 20 PEOPLE IN SCRIM NATALIE SHOOTING CHILDREN AND SO FORTH AND SO ON, JUST ANYBODY THAT HAPPENS TO BE AROUND, YES, OF COURSE THERE'S PSYCHOLOGICAL AND EMOTIONAL DIFFICULTIES THAT LED TO THIS AND A SENSE OF REJECTION. BUT I ALSO -- AGAIN WE HAVE TO BE COGNIZANT OF THE FACT THAT SOMETHING THAT IS SO CRUEL, THAT IS JUST SO DISPROPORTIONATE TO THE CAUSES OF THE ANGER -- NOW EVEN THOUGH, LIKE, THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO FEEL INCREDIBLE STRESSES, YOU KNOW, AND THE ANGER IS JUST BLASTING FORTH FROM REAL PHYSICAL DIFFICULTIES, NO QUESTION THAT THERE ARE PHYSICAL CAUSES OF ANGER BUT WHEN IT CROSSES THIS LINE INTO THE INDISCRIMINATE DESTRUCTION AND KILLING OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY CHILDREN YOU HAVE TO BEGIN TO SAY IS THIS REALLY JUST A PROBLEM WITH THE BRAIN? YOU CAN HAVE AN OUTBURST. YOU CAN HAVE A PERSON WHOSE LASHING OUT IN A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT WAYS. BUT JUST WHOLESALE INDISCRIMINATE DESTRUCTION OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, IT ALWAYS HAS TO ME A DEMONIC CHARACTER. NOW, THE CAUSE OF THE DEMONIC CHARACTER, YOU KNOW, COULD BE ANYTHING, YOU KNOW. SURELY THE BREAKDOWN OF MORES IN THE CULTURE IS A POSSIBLE CAUSE -- AND PROBABLE CAUSE -- SURELY ALSO -- YOU HAVE THESE VIDEO GAMES WHERE YOU HAVE PEOPLE ALL DAY LONG -- AND OF COURSE THE RESEARCH SAYS THERE'S NO CORRELATION BETWEEN VITAL VIDEO GAMES AND VITAL ACTIONS. HOWEVER THE MORE VITAL VIDEO GAMES THERE ARE -- AND THIS ISN'T A PROOF -- IT JUST SO HAPPENS -- AND THE MORE TIME PEOPLE ARE SPENDING ON IT, THE MORE WE SEE THESE KINDS OF VERY VIOLENT EFFECTS SO YES, THAT'S POSSIBLE. CAN DEMONIC ACTIVITY WORK THROUGH THESE VITAL VIDEO GAMES? ABSOLUTELY I THINK -- SUGGESTIONS CAN BE, YOU KNOW SORT OF PLACED THERE BY THE DEVIL, YOU KNOW, OF THIS IS A GREAT WAY TO GET OUT YOUR ANGER. I MEAN, A THIRD THING, CLEARLY, IS THAT "COPYCAT" STUFF CAN -- CAN A PERSON ACTUALLY DO THAT PSYCHOLOGICALLY OF COURSE? BUT AT THE SAME TIME CAN A DEMON WORK THROUGH THIS AND MAKE SUGGESTIONS TO GO AHEAD AND DO THIS -- ABSOLUTELY. AND YOU KNOW WHISTLES AT UNIVERSITY, A TERRIBLE SHOOTING TOOK PLACE. THERE WAS A PERSON WHO WAS BASIC LAY STUDENT AT MIT CAME ON TO CAMPUS -- THIS IS WHEN I WAS STUDENT I BELIEVE IN 1972 OR 73 AND WHO TRIED TO GETTING A SAYS TO THE TOWER OF ST. ALOYSIUS CHURCH BUT COULDN'T GET IN THERE BECAUSE IT WAS LOCKED AND HE TRIED TO BURN THE CHURCH DOWN AND SHOT A BUNCH OF PEOPLE IN SCRIM NATALIE. BUT THE WHOLE TIME HE WAS DOING THIS HE DEFINITELY HEARD VOICES THAT WERE TELLING HIM "SHOOT EVERYBODY." OH, YEAH. >> IT SOUNDED LIKE HE WAS MIMICKING THE GUY IN TEXAS WHERE HE WENT IN THE TOWER AND THAT WAS A BIG SHOOTING. >> EXACTLY. KIND OF A COPYCAT THING BUT DEFINITELY HEARING THE VOICES. SO WHAT DID YOU DO? YOU KNOW, I THINK, YES, ALL KINDS OF POTENTIAL FOR DEMONIC FORCES TO BE WORKING ON AN INDIVIDUAL WHO ALREADY HAS A REAL DIFFICULT AND MAY ALREADY BE INTO SOME SORT OF CONSULT PRACTICE OR CULTIC PRACTICE. THERE ARE SO MANY STRANGE THINGS GOING ON THE INTERNET RIGHT NOW THAT ACTUALLY ENCOURAGE ALMOST DEMONIC KINDS OF THINGS. >> AND PEOPLE TAKE THIS IN ISOLATION, BY THEMSELVES IN A SITUATION WHERE SOMEBODY DOESN'T NOPE THAT THAT'S WHAT THEIR INTAKE IS OR INCULCATING INTO THEIR LIVES OR PERSONALITY -- >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> SO YOU WOULD HAVE HAD TO GO OUT IN THE PAST AND REACH OUT FOR THIS. YOU DON'T HAVE TO ANYMORE. IT COMES RIGHT THERE. >> IT'S RIGHT THERE IN YOUR BEDROOM, YEAH. >> ARCHBISHOP CHEPU WHO WAS AT THE NAPA EVENT MENTIONED THE FACT THAT IN HIS RECENT COLUMN -- I THOUGHT THIS WAS GOOD -- THE PEOPLE USING THE GUNS IN THESE LOATHSOME INCIDENTS ARE MORAL AGENTS WITH TWISTED HEARTS AND THE TWISTING IS DONE BY THE CULTURE OF SEXUAL ANARCHY, POLITICAL HATRED, INTELLECTUAL DISHONEST AND PERVERTED FREEDOMS THAT WE'VE SYSTEMATICALLY CREATED OVER THE PAST HALF CENTURY. >> WELL I THINK IT'S A BRILLIANT STATEMENT. AND I KNOW I COULDN'T HAVE STATED IT ANY BETTER. IT'S TYPICAL ARCHBISHOP BRILLIANCE AND I THINK IT'S RIGHT ON THE MARKER BUT I THINK AGAIN, FOR EVERYTHING THAT HE MENTIONS YOU CAN JUST SEE HOW A DEMON CAN -- HOW A SPIRITUAL FORCE CAN GET INTO THE MIX AND THEN TWIST EVEN FURTHER WHAT'S ALREADY BEEN TWISTED BY THE CULTURE. >> RIGHT. AND MAYBE PUSH YOU OVER THE EDGE. I THINK THE GUY IN DAYTON, THERE ARE QUESTIONS ABOUT SATANISM AND OTHER THINGS OUT THERE. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY'RE EXACTLY TRUE BECAUSE YOU CAN'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING ON THE INTERNET, ESPECIALLY SINCE SOMEBODY HAD A STATISTIC THAT SAYS ONLY 22 PERCENT OF ADULTS ARE ON TWITTER AND 80 PERCENT OF THE TWEETS COME FROM 10 PERCENT OF THE USERS SO YOU SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT THAT WHEN YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT WHERE THIS STUFF IS COMING FROM AND THE LIMITED PERSPECTIVE THAT YOU MAYBE GETTING, MUCH MORE LIMITED THAN YOU THINK. >> ABSOLUTELY. >> HERE IS ANOTHER QUESTION ABOUT A PRIOR PROGRAM. ON A PREVIOUS PROGRAM THERE WAS A QUESTION ON ANNULMENTS. I THOUGHT FATHER SAID YOU CAN ALWAYS GET A DIVORCE BUT YOU CAN'T GET MARRIED AFTER DIVORCE AND GET COMMUNION. THIS DOESN'T SO YOU NEED CORRECT. ACCORDING TO THE CAT EXORCISM CCC-2384 DIVORCE IS A GRAVE OFFENSE AGAINST THE NATURAL LAW. COMMENTS? GOD BLESS YOU FROM JOHN. WHAT ABOUT THAT WHOLE DISTINCTION THERE. >> JOHN HAS A VERY GOOD POINT. DIVORCE IS A GRAVE OFFENSE. HOWEVER WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THERE JOHN -- THIS GOES BACK TO A PREVIOUS PROGRAM, BUT I BELIEVE WAS CAN YOU AVAIL YOURSELF OF 5 DIVORCE IF IN FACT PERSON INVOLVED IS OBVIOUSLY MAYBE PHYSICALLY ABUSING, EMOTIONALLY ABUSING, ENDANGERING CHILDREN, DOING THESE THINGS. THE ANSWER IS YES YOU CAN. EVEN THOUGH -- REMEMBER IT'S NOT JUST A GRAVE OFFENSE AGAINST THE NATURAL RAW. IT SOMETIMES -- FIRST IT HAS TO BE DONE WITH SUFFICIENT KNOWLEDGE AND FULL CONSENT OF THE WILL. THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO REALLY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE. THEY ACTUALLY HAVE TO AVAIL THEMSELVES OF THIS TO PREVENT, YOU KNOW, REAL ABUSES NOT ONLY TO THEMSELVES BUT TO THEIR CHILDREN AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE. AND IF YOU GET A DIVORCE, THE REASON FOR THE DIVORCE IS PROBABLY NOT CAVALIER IF YOU'RE A GOOD CATHOLIC. THERE'S SOME REASON FOR IT THAT IS MOVING IT FORWARD -- PROBABLY AN INABILITY TO TOLERATE THESE THINGS, OR YOUR CHILDREN PROBLEMS BECAUSE OF THE MARRIAGE ITSELF OR ABUSE WITHIN THE MARRIAGE. ALL OF THAT BEING SAID YOU CAN STILL BEAT THE DIVORCE AND GO TO COMMUNION YOU CAN BUT OBVIOUSLY YOU MADE RECOURSE NOT OUT OF FREEDOM BUT YOU WERE COMPELLED TO DO SO FOR THE GOOD OF YOUR FAMILY AND THE GOD OF YOUR CHILDREN. >> WHEN WE TALK ABOUT DIVORCE IT'S A LEGAL TERM. FOR THE CHURCH YOU'RE STILL MARRIED UNTIL YOU HAVE AN ANNULMENT. SO IN THE OLD DATES, WHEN I GREW UP, THEY USED TO CALL IT A SEPARATION. THEY SAID THEY GOT SEPARATED. THEY'RE NOT DIVORCED. BECAUSE THE IDEA IS THAT YOU WERE NOT FREE TO GET MARRIED AGAIN. >> THAT'S CORRECT. YOU'RE NOT FREE TO GET MARRIED AGAIN. THAT'S WHAT HE MEANS, BUT YOU ARE CERTAINLY NOT CONSTRAINED TO LIVE TOGETHER AND YOU CERTAINLY CAN SOLIDIFY THAT LEGALLY, RIGHT, ESPECIALLY IF -- AGAIN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A SEPARATION WHICH IS NEEDED. IT'S NECESSARY. IT'S NOT -- WELL I'M TIRED OF YOU. >> WE HAVE THE EMPTY NEST AND NOW CAN I GO LIVE MY LIFE THE WAY I FEEL. I HAVE A FEW YEARS LEFT. >> RIGHT. BUT, ESSENTIALLY, WHAT WE'RE GENERALLY TALKING ABOUT IS THERE'S SOME EXTRANEOUS NECESSITY THAT IS MOVING IT FORWARD. YOU CAN STILL GO TO COMMUNION AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO PROBLEM IN THE SENSE OF, YOU KNOW, ARE YOU COMMITTING AN ONGOING SIN, AND THE ANSWER IS, NO, YOU ARE NOT. IN THE UNLESS YOU'RE GETTING REMARRIED OR LIVING WITH SOMEBODY. >> THAT'S DIFFERENT. >> THEN IF YOU'RE GETTING MARRIED IT IS A PROBLEM. YEAH, YOU HAVE TO GET AN ANNULMENT BEFORE REMARRIAGE. >> ANOTHER QUESTION ON A RECENT PROGRAM. WE HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE WATCHING. THAT'S GREAT. YOU SAID A RECENT QUESTION YOU ASKED YOU WHETHER HELL IS A STATE OR A PLACE. IT LED ME TO WONDER, DID GOD CREATE HELL? AND DID GOD CREATE PURGATORY? IF NOT HOW WAS HELL AND PURGATORY CREATED? THANK YOU, FATHER. I LOVE YOU EVER SHOW AND GOD BLESS YOU. THIS IS FROM JANE. >> YES, GOD CREATED HELL AND PURGATORY AND THERE'S NO OTHER BEING THAT COULD CREATE HELL OR PURGATORY AND IT CERTAINLY DIDN'T ARRIVE THERE AS IT WERE, OUT OF NOTHING, WITHOUT GOD'S CREATION OF IT. YOU SAY WHY DID HE CREATE HELL? BECAUSE REMEMBER IN HEAVEN -- FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE TO GO TO HEAVENLY BY OUR OWN FREE CHOICES RIGHT? SO THAT'S THE FIRST THING. SECOND THING IS GOD HAS TO CREATE PURGATORY BECAUSE IF WE'RE STILL NOT REALLY TO LIVE IN A RELATIONSHIP THAT'S BECOMING OF HEAVEN WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FIND A WAY OF USING OUR FREEDOM, WORKING WITH THE LORD THROUGH OUR FREEDOM TO MOVE INTO THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM WHERE WE ARE PREPARED TO LOVE AND TO RECEIVE THE LOVE OF GOD, YOU KNOW, WITH A PURE HEART, WITHOUT THAT NARCISSISM, EGOCENTRICITY THAT CAN VERY MUCH BLOCK US. BUT WE HAVE TO DO IT FREELY SO WE HAVE A NEED FOR PURGATORY. THEN THERE'S A NEED FOR A PLACE FOR PEOPLE WHO TRULY WANT -- WHO DESIRE, YOU KNOW, TO BE SEPARATED FROM GOD AND THE BLESSED. THEY REALLY THINK THAT WE HAD BE HAPPIER IN AN ATMOSPHERE OF DOMINATION, NARCISSISM, SENSUALITY AND EXCESS -- THEY THINK THIS IS WHERE TRUE HAPPINESS IS. SO A PLACE WHERE, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE CONSTRAINED BY THE DEMANDS OF EXACERBATION, LOVE, AND YOU KNOW, GOD AS THE CENTER OF YOUR WORLD RATHER THAN YOURSELF AS THE CENTER OF YOUR WORLD. AND THAT PLACE IS CALLED HELL. BECAUSE IF THAT'S WHAT YOUR REAL BELIEF IS, IT'S COMPLETELY IN COMMENSURATE WITH WHAT IS GOING ON IN HEAVEN. SO ESSENTIALLY GOD HAD TO CREATE ALL THREE PLACES TO CORRESPOND TO THE WAYS IN WHICH HUMAN FREEDOM IS GOING TO INTERACT, YOU KNOW, WITH GOD'S LOVE AND HIS -- THE DEMANDS OF LOVE NOT ONLY TOWARD GOD BUT ALSO OTHER PEOPLE AND OURSELVES AND THE DEMANDS OF LOVE ARE IMPORTANT IN ORDER TO LIVE A LIFE OF LOVE SO YEAH IF WE'RE OPEN TO IT, WE WANT IT, WE DESIRE IT BUT WE'RE NOT REALLY, WE GO TO PURGATORY. >> SPEAKING OF PURGATORY WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK AND COME BACK AND SPEND THE REST OF THE SHOW TALKING ABOUT PURGATORY. SO STAY WITH US. MUCH MORE AHEAD WITH "FATHER SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" IN THE HEART OF HIS UNIVERSE. [MUSIC] [MUSIC] >> AND WELCOME BACK TO "FATHER SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" AT THE INTERSECTION OF FAITH AND REASON. TODAY WE FIND OURSELVES IN PURGATORY WITH FATHER SPITZER. I GUESS IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE IN PURGATORY MIGHT AS WELL BE WITH YOU. THAT'S GREAT. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE TOPIC FROM CREDIBLE CATHOLIC AND YOU A WERE TALKING ABOUT PURGATORY AND THE IDEA OF PURGATORY. YOU SAY THE ORIGIN OF THE DOCTRINE OF PURGATORY -- YOU MAKE THE POINT -- IT'S FORMULATED IN THE EARLY MIDDLE AGES. ISN'T THAT PART OF THE RAP AGAINST IT, THAT WELL THE CATHOLIC CHURCH KIND OF MADE THIS THING UP -- >> NO. WHAT I MEANT BY FORMULATED IS, THAT'S WHEN ITS OFFICIAL DOCTRINAL FORMULATION WAS BROUGHT ABOUT FOR PRESENTATION AS A DOCTRINE. HOWEVER THE DOCTRINE ITSELF PRECEDES THE MIDDLE AGES AND ECHOS ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE OLD TESTAMENT. IN THE FIRST AND 2ND BOOK OF MACCABEES YOU HAVE REFERENCE TO SOMETHING ADOWN PURGATORY. SO IT'S A STATED WHERE PEOPLE ARE WHO ARE ALREADY DEAD, RIGHT? THEY'VE DIED AND IN THAT STATE THEY'RE OBVIOUSLY UNDERGOING SOME KIND OF PURIFICATION THAT MERITS PRAYERS TO HELP THEM DURING PURIFICATION PROCESS TOWARD HEAVEN: I DON'T HAVE THE EXACT QUOTE WITH ME BUT I COULD BRING IT WITH ME TO THE NEXT -- THAT'S MACCABEES TALKING ABOUT -- YOU SAY THEY BELIEVE CLEARLY ATONEMENT FOR SIN AFTER DEATH AND THE IDEA THAT -- A STRONG FACTION AMONG THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN RESURRECTION THE ATONEMENT CAN BE MADE FOR ONE'S SINS AFTER DEATH. THAT'S MACCABEES AND SOMETIMES WE RUN INTO WELL MACCABEES IS IN EVERYONE'S VERSION OF THE BIBLE SO -- >> IT CERTAINLY IS IN OUR VERSION OF THE BIBLE AND THIS IS THE HISTORY OF JEWISH MACCABEES AND ITS PROCEDURES AND SO FORTH. BUT JEWISH MACCABEES I BELIEVE WAS ACTUAL RAISING FUNDS TO TRY TO AND BRING OFFERINGS TO THE PRIESTS, YOU KNOW, IN ORDER TO MAKE SACRIFICES ON BEHALF OF THOSE WHO HAD ALREADY DEAD AND WERE, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO BE ATTEND TO, YOU KNOW, TO MOVE INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. SO IT'S VERY CLEARLY IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. IT CERTAINLY IS IN 1 CORINTHIANS 3:10 AND FOLLOWING. I HOPE I'M CORRECT IN THAT. BUT THAT'S WHERE ST. PAUL IS TALKING ABOUT, THERE'S YOU KNOW, THIS PURIFICATION AFTER DEATH, AND SOME OF -- A PART OF US, YOU KNOW, THAT'S MADE OF STRAW, YOU KNOW, THAT'S TO SAY THE WEAKER THINGS, THE THINGS THAT ARE NOT OF GOLD AND SILVER, THAT THESE THINGS ARE BURNED AWAY, YOU KNOW, SO IT ALMOST HAS THAT SENSE OF HAVING TO BE PURIFIED AND HAVING TO BE -- PURIFIED NOT ONLY OF THE STRAW AND OF THE THINGS THAT ARE NOT BECOMING OF US, AND THEN THE -- >> CERTAINLY MACCABEES -- THE JEWISH FAITH, THE CELEBRATION OF THE HANUKKAH, COMES OUT OF THE -- MACCABEE EXPERIENCE ALSO. THAT'S SOMETHING CELEBRATED TODAY BY JEWISH PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD, SO IT'S NOT LIKE THEY DISCOUNTED MACCABEES EITHER. WHO SAID WHO EVER SPEAKS AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN EITHER IN THIS AGE OR THAT'S TO COME. AND THAT'S MATTHEW 12:32 AND OUR LORD SAID THIS AND WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT SHOWS? >> IT'S THE WHOLE IDEA OF IN THE LIFE TO COME. AGAIN THE IMPLICATION OF JESUS' WORDS IS THERE'S SOME KIND OF FORGIVENESS OR ATONEMENT IN THE LIFE TO COME. THAT IS TO SAY, AFTER WE ARE DEAD. AND I DON'T SEE HOW ELSE YOU CAN READ THAT SCRIPTURE WITHOUT INFERRING PLAUSIBLY AS THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES, IT CERTAINLY IMPLIES THAT THERE IS SOME KIND OF FORGIVENESS AND ATONEMENT IN THE LIFE TO COME AKIN TO PURGATORY. AND AS I SAID, 1 CORINTHIANS 310 AND FOLLOWING, ALSO ST. AUGUSTINE USES THAT PASSAGE AGAIN AND AGAIN TO ESTABLISH, YOU KNOW PURGATORY AS VERY VIABLE AS WHAT IS ACTUALLY TAKING PLACE AFTER DEATH. NOW ST. AUGUSTINE GOING INTO THE 4TH CENTURY THERE, YOU KNOW, AND EVEN INTO THE FIFTH CENTURY IN A CERTAIN EXTENT AND THAT'S MUCH EARLIER THAN THE MIDDLE AGES. NOW DID THE FATHERS IN THE MIDDLE AGES -- I THINK IT WAS THE COUNSEL MAKE REFERENCE IN 1 CORINTHIANS 3? YES. DID THEY MAKE RECOURSE TO THE BOOK OF MACCABEES? YES, THEY DID. AND THERE WAS GOOD REASON Y BUT OF COURSE THE FORMAL PROCLAMATION OF THE DOCTRINE ACTUALLY OCCURS RIGHT THERE IN THE MIDDLE AGES. SO I WAS JUST TRYING TO BE ACCURATE AND SAY WHEN DID IT BECOME DOCTRINAL, NOT WHEN WAS THE IDEA OF PURGATORY BROUGHT TO THE ATTENTION OF JESUS AND THE EARLY CHURCH. >> LIKE IT WAS CONCOCTED BID CHURCH OR SOMETHING. RIGHT. YOU SAY IN THE THOUGHT OF JESUS ST. PAUL AND THE OTHER CHURCH THAT HE BELIEVED THERE WAS A PERIOD EVERY DEATH BUT PRECEDING FINAL JUDGMENT WHERE THE DECEASED COULD BE HELPED IN THEIR PATH TOWARDS SALVATION. THAT'S WHERE YOU GET IN THE IDEA IT'S PURGATORY IN THE SENSE OF PEOPLE THINK OF IT'S AS A PLACE OR IS IT A STAGE OR IS IT AN EXPERIENCE OR. >> I MEAN -- EITHER ONE TO ME -- IT'S A FINE DISTINCTION BETWEEN "STATE" AND "PLACE." OBVIOUSLY IF YOU MEAN BY PLACE THAT IT HAS SOME SORT OF DESIGNATABLE SPACE-TIME COORDINATE IN OUR UNIVERSE IT'S NO AT PLACE. BUT IF YOU MEAN BY A "PLACE" A PLACEABLE ORIENTED DOMAIN WHICH IS A SEPARATE THOUGHT IN GOD'S INFINITE INTELLIGENCE, SO IN OTHER WORDS, LIKE THE WHOLE -- OUR WHOLE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE IS ONE THOUGHT. AND IF THERE'S A MULTIVERSE, THAT WOULD BE A THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, IN WHICH OUR UNIVERSE EXISTS. BUT PURGATORY, OR HELL, OR HEAVEN, WOULD BE TOTALLY SEPARATE THOUGHTS IN WHAT I WOULD CALL THE INFINITE DIVINE INTELLIGENCE. SO THE UNRESTRICTED INTELLECTUAL ACTIVITY OF GOD. SO THEY WOULD BE SEPARATE THOUGHTS. AND YOU COULD CONSIDER THAT THOUGHT LIKE A PLACE IF IT HAS SPATIOTEMPORAL ORIENTATION SO YOU COULD SAY IT'S A PLACE OR IF YOU SAY IT'S A STATE OF BEING OR I'M SOMEHOW TOGETHER WITH PEOPLE IN A NONE SPATIOTEMPORAL WAY, FINE THEN. BUT I THINK HONESTLY THE DISTINCTION IS A VERY FINE DISTINCTION BETWEEN STATE AND PLACE SO THEREFORE I WOULD JUST SAY USE THE WORD PLACE AS LONG AS YOU CAN IT'S SPATIOTEMPORALLY ORIENTED DIMENSION IN A SEPARATED THOUGHT IN GOD'S MIND FROM THE THOUGHT OF THIS UNIVERSE, THIS PARTICULAR UNIVERSE. AND YOU WILL JUST BE FINE IF YOU USE PLACE IN THAT SENSE. BUT DON'T USE PLACE AS SOMEHOW, SOMEWHERE IN OUR UNIVERSE OR ANOTHER DIMENSION WAN MULTIVERSE. THAT'S NOT WHAT A IS MEANT THERE. >> I THINK SOMETIMES PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED AND SAY IT'S NOT A PLACE OR A STATE. THEY ARE THINKING SEVEN A PLACE AND HELL IS A PLACE AND NOW THEY'RE DOWNPLAYING WHAT DID PURGATORY IS. BUT NOT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. >> THEY'RE NOT SAYING ANYTHING OF THE KIND. BUT PURGATORY IS ALWAYS TEMPORARY, IN THE SENSE THAT IT HAS A BEGINNING AND AN END. >> AND THERE WILL BE SOME POINT AT WHICH NO ONE WILL BE IN IT. >> THAT'S RIGHT. >> AT SOME POINT IN TIME. >> THAT'S CORRECT. >> BECAUSE AT THE END YOU WILL BE IN HEAVEN OR YOU WILL BE IN HELL. >> YEAH. >> OK. THAT'S RIGHT. >> NOW YOU ALSO POINT OUT AND YOU TALK ABOUT OUR LORD SAYING ONE OF THESE LITTLE ONES SHOULD PARISH, OUR LORD WANTS SALVATION FOR ALL AND YOU MAKE THE POINT THAT ST. PAUL SAYS IT'S INCONCEIVABLE GOD WOULD REFUSE SALVATION TO SOMEONE WHO IS CONTRITE FOR HIS SINS AND THEN YOU SAY IF THE SINCERELY CONTRITE WILL BE ABLE TO INTERPRET THE KINGDOM OF HEAVENLY THROUGH THE MEASURE OF GOD WHY WOULD THERE BE ANY NEED FOR PRAYERS TO HELP THEM TOWARDS SALVATION AFTER DEATH? SUSPECT. >> YEAH, EXACTLY. WELL THAT'S THE QUESTION AND, OF COURSE, I THINK ST. PAUL IS TRYING TO ARTICULATE AND ST. AUGUSTINE AND FINALLY IN CHURCH DOCTRINE. THE REASON IS, EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE SINCERELY CONTRITE AND CALLING UPON THE LORD AND YOU REGRET THE SINS THAT YOU DID AND YOU REGRET THE IMPERFECTIONS THAT YOU HAVE WHEN YOU LEAVE THIS WORLD, YOU STILL HAVE THE IMPERFECTIONS. I MEAN, BELIEVE ME, ON MY DEATHBED I'M GOING TO REGRET MY PAST SINCE AND I AM GOING TO REGRET MY MISERABLE SINFUL CONDITION THAT I'M DYING AND YOU KNOW I'M GOING TO REGRET BEING STILL THE PERSON WHO CAN KIND OF GET ANGRIER OR IMPATIENT. I'M GOING TO REGRET THOSE TIMES WHEN I'M NOT HUMBLED AND IN FACT I'M AN ARROGANT WRECK. I'M GOING TO REGRET THOSE THINGS. >> NOW, NOW -- >> WELL IT'S TRUE. I'M GOING TO REGRET IT. BUT I STILL HAVE TO FREELY CHOOSE NOT TO BE THAT WAY THROUGH THE HELP, GRACE OF GOD. AND THAT'S WHAT PURGATORY, PURGATION, PURIFICATION, THAT'S WHAT ITS MEANT TO DO; IT'S MEANT TO HELP ME THROUGH THE GRACE MUCH GOD TO GET BEYOND THE SPITZERIAN EGO, WHICH IS GET IN THE WAY OF ANYTHING AND ALSO TO MY WEDDEDNESS OF ANY FORM OF SENSUALITY, YOU KNOW, GIVE ME ANOTHER CHEESEBURGER, THE POINT IS, WE ARE WEDDED TO THESE THINGS. WE'RE ATTACHED TO THEM. AND WHAT DID PURGATORY DOES IS HELP US TO GET DETACHED FROM THOSE THINGS. DETACHED FROM PUTTING SENSUALITY IN FRONT OF THE LOVE OF GOD; DETACHED FROM PUTTING COMFORT IN FRONT OF THE LOVE OF GOD; DETACHED FROM PUTTING OUR EGOCENTRICITY, OUR NEED TO DOMINATE, OUR NEED TO BE IN FIRST PLACE, OUR NEED TO HAVE COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE, OUR NEED TO BE EXCESSIVELY CONCERNED WITH OURSELVES IN FRONT OF THE LOVE OF GOD. AND YOU SAY, WELL, GEE SPITZER DO YOU PUT IT IN FRONT OF THE LOVE OF GOD? WELL COGNITIVELY OF COURSE I KNOW THAT THE LOVE OF GOD IS MUCH MORE IMPORTANT. IS THAT REFLECTED IN ALL MY CHOICES? WELL, YOU KNOW, I'D BE A SAINT IF IT WERE REFLECTED IN ALL OF MY CHOICES AND YOU CAN ASK ANYBODY WHO HAS TO BE AROUND ME, I'M NOT A SAINT. IT'S NOT REFLECTED IN ALL OF MY CHOICES. I STILL AM STRUGGLING TO MOVE BEYOND, YOU KNOW, SOME OF -- ESPECIALLY THE PRIDE AND ANGER THINGS. I STRUGGLE, YOU KNOW, TO MOVE BEYOND IT AND TO SOME EXTENT, LIKE I SAID, YOU KNOW, I CAN'T HELP MYSELF, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE BRING OUT THE GOOD FOOD AND I'M ALREADY SALIVATING. SO FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES YOU KNOW, THEY'RE -- THERE IS A WAYS TO GO AND I KNOW IT AND I'M NOT PERFECTLY COMPASSIONATE. I'M NOT PERFECTLY HUMBLE. I WANT TO BE. I. MEAN YOU KNOW EVERY DAY YOU KNOW I THINK TO MYSELF, I WANT TO BE PRAYERFUL AND CHASTE AND HUMBLE AND COMPASSIONATE TO THE FULLEST DEGREE POSSIBLE, YOU KNOW. GOD HELP ME. I KNOW I WILL BE BECAUSE IF I DON'T FINISH ON THIS EARTH I'M TRULY GOING TO FINISH IN PURGATORY, AND GOD WILL HELP ME TO WEAN MYSELF OFF OF MYSELF. >> LET ME ASK YOU THIS QUESTION. YOU HAVE THE QUOTE FROM ST. PAUL: FOR I DO NOT DO THE GOOD I WANT BUT I DO THE EVIL I DO NOT WANT. SO IF YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING YOU DON'T WANT TO DO, DOES THAT INDICATE A LOT OF FREE WILL? IF SO, HOW CAN IT BE A SIN? >> I MEAN IT'S ADJUST GREAT POINT. AND ST. PAUL IS SO COGNIZANT OF THAT. THAT'S THE ROMANS 7 PASSAGE WHERE HE BEGINS AND HE IS -- WHY DO I DO WHAT I DON'T WANT TO DO? RIGHT? I DO THE EVIL THAT I WOULD NOT DO AND I DO NOT DO THE GOOD THAT I WOULD DO. HE GOES ON AND STARTS REFLECTING ABOUT THIS. HE SAYS, WELL, WAIT, WHY DOING, THAT? AND HE SAYS WELL BECAUSE THE FLESH IN ME, WHICH IS NOT ME, BECAUSE THE REAL ME LOVES GOD'S LAW, LOVES CHRIST'S TEACHING, LOVES WHAT CHRIST LOVED AND TAUGHT, YOU KNOW -- THAT'S THE REAL ME. ALL RIGHT. SO I -- RIGHT -- AM ACTING IN ONE WAY THAT WANTS TO CONFORM TO THE LAW, BUT THE FLESH IN ME -- SO HE SEES THERE ARE THESE CONTEMPORARY DESIRES IN HIM THAT ARE ACTING AGAINST WHO HE REALLY IS AND WHAT HE REALLY WANTS. SO HE IS SAYING, YES, I AM FREE TO CHOOSE. HE TOTALLY ADMITS THAT. BUT HE SAYS SOMETIMES THE FLESH WITHIN HIM OVERPOWERS WHAT HE REALLY WANTS TO DO. SO THAT'S -- WHY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, FOR EXAMPLE, SAYS THAT A MORTAL SIN HAS TO BE DONE WITH SUFFICIENT KNOWLEDGE AND FULL CONSENT OF THE WILL, NO IMPEDIMENTS TO THE FREE USE OF THE WILL. BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY PAUL KNEELS SOME WAYS THAT THERE ARE SOME CON STRAINING FORCES IN HIM -- AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT -- THE FLESH DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN SINCE OF THE FLESH. IT COULD MEAN EGOCENTRICITY GONE MAD OR AS HE CALLS IT PRIDE. >> YOU USED TO DO THINK IT -- YOU THOUGHT IT HAD SOMETHING SO DO WOULD HIS EYESIGHT. >> THAT'S A DIFFERENT -- THAT'S THE THORN IN THE FLESH. THAT'S A DIFFERENT CONTEXT OF FLESH. FLESH ALSO HAS A VERY -- A REAL MEANING IN THIS SORT OF STRUGGLE THAT WE HAVE YOU KNOW BETWEEN OUR SPIRIT AND OUR FLESH. IT'S ANOTHER USE OF FLESH IN SAINT MALL. BUT THAT TERM FLESH THERE MEANS DESIRES CONTRARY TO MY SPIRIT. YOU KNOW, WHICH OF COURSE WANTS TO BE IN CONFORMITY WITH GOD, WHICH WANTS TO EMBRACE THE TEACHING AND LOVE OF JESUS CHRIST AND SO YOU KNOW THAT THING OF WANTING TO BE LIKE THE LORD, TO IMITATE HIM BUT AT THE SAME TIME SOME TEMPTATION COMES UP TO BRAGGADOCIA OR TO BE IMPATIENT WITH SOMEBODY WHO IS A GOOD PERSON BUT JUST NOT DOING IT FAST ENOUGH OR WHATEVER IT IS, AND THESE THINGS COME UP AND IT'S ALMOST LIKE THEY'RE JUST -- THEY NAIL YOU BEFORE YOU EVEN KNOW YOU'RE GETTING NAILED. . AND IT COULD BE ANY OF THE DEADLY SINS. WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IT REALLY WAS IN THAT SENSE, NOR PAUL. BUT HE THINKS THERE ARE DESIRES IN HIM THAT ARE CONTRARY TO WHO HE IS IN HIS SPIRIT BECAUSE THOSE THINGS SOMETIMES OVERWHELM HIM AND THAT'S WHY HE SAYS: "WHAT A WRETCHED MAN I AM. WHO WILL RESCUE ME FROM THIS BED/FLESH OF DEATH"? THANKS BE TO GOD FOR OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. SO THE POINT OF COURSE THAT PAUL'S MAKING IS THAT, YEAH, WE'RE -- WE STRIPES POWERLESS BEFORE THESE THINGS BUT EVENTUALLY WE WON'T BE. EVENTUALLY JESUS WILL RESCUE US EVEN FROM THE MOST PERSISTENT AND NAGGING DESIRES OF THE FLESH WHICH CAN SOMETIMES OVERWHELM US AND TEMPT US BEYOND OUR CAPACITY TO RESPOND AND THAT'S WHY I POINTED OUT BECAUSE YOU KNOW OUR EXISTENCE RIGHT NOW IS A MIXTURE AND MOST OF US WHO ARE CHRISTIANS ON THE WAY ARE LIKE ST. PAUL. WE DO VERY MUCH WANT TO BE IMITATING CHRIST. WE VERY MUCH WANTED TO EMBRACE THE LAW OF JESUS AND THE EXPRESSION OF LOVE AND THE BEATITUDES, WE WANT TO EMBRACE THE WHOLE PACKAGE, BUT WE FIND OURSELVES, JUST BECAUSE OF WHO WE ARE, OUR PAST HISTORIES, OUR ATTACHMENTS, OUR ABERRANT DESIRES, AND WE JUST WIND UP DOING STUFF WE DON'T JUST DON'T WANT TO DO BUT WE DO ANYWAY AND THAT'S WHY HE IS HE DOES WHAT A WRETCHED MAN I AM. >> I THINK IT'S 2ND TIMOTHY WHERE ST. PAUL MENTIONS THE FACT THAT ALEXANDER THE COPPER SMITH HAS DONE ME WRONG AND HE'S GOING TO GET HIS SO THERE'S CHRISTIAN LOVE THERE. >> WHAT HAPPENED TO SYRINGES THEY DIDDENCE. >> RIGHT. BUT PAUL IS A HUMAN BEING AND WE ARE HUMAN BEINGS. NOW OF COURSE WE KNOW THAT HE WAS ABSOLUTELY PURIFIED VERY QUICKLY ON AFTER HIS DEATH NOT JUST THROUGH HIS MARTYRDOM BUT ALSO THROUGH THE GOOD GRACES OF GOOD, AND, BOY, HIS MARTYRDOM QUITE LITERALLY HAD HIS HEAD SEVERED, YOU KNOW, HIS MARTYRDOM IS AN INSTRUMENT OF PURIFICATION. >> AND HE COULDN'T BE CRUCIFIED BECAUSE HE WAS A ROMAN CITIZENS, ISN'T THAT RIGHT? >> THAT'S CORRECT. >> HE COULDN'T BE CRUCIFIED. THAT'S WHAT THEY SAID. >> BUT ST. PETER WAS PROBABLY CRUCIFIED UPSIDE DOWN. >> SO LET ME ASK YOU -- YOU TALK ABOUT THE END OF THIS THAT THERE'S A FOUR-PART PULLS THAT -- PUZZLE THAT ST. PAUL PUT TOGETHER FOR US. MAYBE JUST RECAPTURE THAT AS WE WRAP-UP THE SHOW. HERE IS THE MUZZLE THAT LEADS TO ST. PAUL AND ST. AUGUSTINE OF THE EARLY CHURCH BRINGING PURGATORY INTO BEING. GOD'S UNCONDITIONAL FORGIVING LOVE IS PRECISELY THAT. IT'S UNCONDITIONAL. IF YOU ARE SINCERELY CONTRITE FOR YOUR SINS WHEN YOU DIE AND YOU HAVE -- YOU KNOW, DESIRE TO MAKE FIRM PURPLE OF AMENDMENT AND YOU DIE, YOU KNOW, GOD IS GOING TO BRING YOU INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. YOU KNOW THAT'S A GUARANTEE. HE'S NOT GOING TO REVERSE OF FATHER OF THE PRODIGAL SON'S CONTENTION. THAT'S THE IMAGE. SO GOD'S LOVING MERCY IS UNCONDITIONAL FOR THOSE WHO ARE CONTRITE AND, YOU KNOW, WHO HAVE FIRM PURPOSE OF AMENDMENT AND OF COURSE WE WOULD SAY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, YOU KNOW, HAVE AVAILED THEMSELVES OF ABSOLUTION. YOU'RE GOING TO HEAVEN IF YOU MEET THOSE CONDITIONS AND THEN YOU HAVE THIS PROBLEM OF WHEN WE DIAL WE'RE IMPERFECT. I CAN SEE HOW I COULD DIE AND BE IMPERFECT. I COULD SEE HOW SO MANY OTHER PEOPLE DIE AND ARE IMPERFECT. SOMEHOW THERE HAS GOD TO BE A WAY IN WHICH WE CAN FREELY CHOOSE AND THE DOCTRINE OF STREAM REALLY IMPORTANT. WE HAVE TO FREELY CHOOSE TO BE PURIFIED. WE HAVE TO FREELY WITH OUR OWN WILL START CHOOSING IN OUR ACTIONS AND TO PUT THE LOVE OF GOD AND SELF-SACRIFICE AND THE LOVE OF OUR NEIGHBOR FOR MY COMFORT OR ANYTHING ELSE AND THEN WE WILL BE READY FOR THE LOVE AND THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN WHERE THERE IS NO SUFFERING, THERE'S NO NEED FOR SELF-SACRIFICE ANYMORE. WE'RE BEING IN OUR NATURE AND OUR WHOLE IDENTITY HAS ALREADY BEEN PROVEN IN THE ACTIONS THAT WE PERFORMED. SO THE CHURCH IF YOU'RE GOING TO RECONCILE 3(10):10 AND THE GOSPEL OF MATTHEW, THE IDEA OF ATONEMENT AND FORGIVENESS AFTER DEATH YOU'RE GOING TO RECONCILE ALL OF THESE THINGS WITH THE UNCONDITIONAL LOVE OF GOD'S MERCY AND THE FACT THAT WE HAVE TO FREELY CHOOSE TO MOVE BEYOND OUR IMPERFECTIONS INTO THE VERY PERFECTION AND LOVE OF GOD IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO THAT THERE'S ONLY ONE WAY. THERE HAS TO BE A STATE OR A PLACE AFTER DEATH WHERE WE CAN CHOOSE AND BE PURIFIED ACCORDING TO GOD'S GOOD GRACES TO COME INTO THE FULL LIGHT OF LOVE. WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT AFTER DEATH BECAUSE WE DIE IMPERFECTLY AND YET THE UNCONDITIONAL MERCY OF GOD SAYS WE'RE GOING TO HEAVEN AND THAT'S WHY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS IF YOU WIND UP IN PURGATORY AND YOU'RE IN THAT STATE THAT YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE DON'T WORRY, EVENTUALLY YOU WILL BE IN HEAVEN BECAUSE GOD IS GOING TO MAKE SURE THAT EVENTUALLY HE LEADS YOU THROUGH YOUR FREE CHOICE INTO THE FULLNESS OF THAT HEAVENLY LIGHT. >> WELL THAT BEING SAID, AND WE'RE JUST GOING TO END SLIGHTLY EARLY BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE OUR OWN LOSS TO THE SHOW. OUR FABULOUS PRODUCER ALAN LACKEY, AFTER THREE AND A HALF YEARS IS MOVING ON AND I FIGURED WE WANTED TO WISH HIM ALL THE LUCK IN THE WORLD. HE HAS BEEN A WONDERFUL HELP THROUGHOUT THE SHOW. AND I DIDN'T KNOW IF YOU WANTED TO SAY ANYTHING IN THE CLOSING MINUTES. >> ABSOLUTELY. ALAN IT'S JUST BEEN WONDERFUL WORKING WITH YOU. WE SURE UNDERSTAND YOUR NEEDS TO BE LEAVING BUT WE'RE GOING TO MISS YOU COMPLETELY, ESPECIALLY YOUR DILIGENCE, YOUR CONSCIENTIOUSNESS AND OF COURSE YOUR DESIRE TO SEE THE GOSPEL, THE CHURCH, AND THE WILL OF JESUS CHRIST PROMOTED THROUGH THIS MINISTRY AND SO MANY OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT YOU DO AT EWTN. YOU WILL REALLY BE MISSED ALAN. AND WE PRAY FOR YOU, YOU KNOW, AS WE LEAVE AND JUST ASK GOD'S BLESSINGS UPON YOU IN YOUR NEW VENTURES. >> AND GIVE ALAN AND ALL OF US YOUR BLESSING ON THE WAY OUTER. >> ABSOLUTELY. BOW YOUR HEADS AND PRAY FOR GOD'S BLESSING. AND MAY ALMIGHTY GOD SEND HIS SPIRIT OF LOVE, HIS SPIRIT OF PURIFICATION, HIS SPIRIT THAT IS FILLED WITH THE GRACE TO LEAD US INTO THE FULLNESS OF LIGHT AND LOVE UPON YOU, SO THAT, AS YOU MAKE ACCORDING TO HIS UNCONDITIONAL FORGIVING LOVE IN THE SINCERE CONTRITION FOR YOUR SINS HE MAY LEAD YOU THROUGH ALL OF THE TRIALS OF THIS LIFE AND THROUGH ANY PURGATION AFTER THIS LIFE IS OVER, INTO THE FULLNESS OF HIS LIGHT AND LOVE, HIS COMPASSION AND GOODNESS AND GENTLENESS, IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND THE SON AND OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, AMEN. >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FATHER SPITZER. WE SHALL SEE YOU IN TWO WEEKS LIFE. WE WILL HAVE OUR NAPA SHOW NEXT WEEK. GOD BLESS YOU BECAUSE SEE YOU THEN. AND REMINDING OUR AUDIENCE TO MAKE THAT YOU COME BACK NEXT WEEK AND DON'T FORGET OUGHT OF THE WONDERFUL BOOKS AVAILABLE ON OUR EWTN CATALOG, EWTNRC.COM AND LOOK FOR THE FAMILY CELEBRATION. SATURDAY SEPTEMBER 21, THE FAMILY CELEBRATION. FABULOUS LINEUP, ENGLISH AND SPANISH TRACK ALL IN DENVER COLORADO. AND AGAIN, WHY BE CATHOLIC? WE WILL TALK ABOUT THAT NEXT WEEK. AND FATHER JOE ROUSH IS ALWAYS POPULAR AND HAS A BOOK, ROME, A PILGRIMAGE WITH MARY. THAT'S ON BOOKMARK THIS WEEK. WE WILL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK AT THE VERY, VERY BUSY INTERSECTION OF FAITH AND REASON. LOOK FOR US. WE WILL BE WAVING. [MUSIC]
