Debate: Purgatory (Walter Martin vs Mitch Pacwa)

named John Ankerberg well examine with Roman Catholicism pieces concerning their doctrine of purgatory the Catholic Church says purgatory is a place where Christians go at death who are guilty of venial sins such Christians suffer in purgatory until fully purified not only are Christian purged of venial sin but they must also pay any temporal punishment still do other sins Catholicism states that a person that does not remain and suffer in purgatory forever as one does who is in hell rather after a person soul is cleansed of imperfections he then goes to heaven Protestant strongly denied that the doctrine of purgatory is biblical primarily because in biblical theology in the New Testament the doctrine of purgatory is unknown as mentioned it was a later invention of Catholic theology there is no suggestion of purgatory in apostolic theology there's no mention of the concept whatever the only way of going to get it is to read into the passages and it took them five hundred years to read it into the passengers so I think it's a little difficult for Protestants to swallow what turned out to be the biggest money-making proposition in the history of Roman Catholic doctrine namely to actually pay money for masses and sell indulgences and in fact impute vicarious righteousness to people in a place that didn't exist except in the thought processes of Roman Catholic theologians now in terms of the scriptures that you're right that we don't have a text that explicitly mentions it but we have text that we have to deal with very seriously and I must admit this too the more I studied this you know for the preparation for this the more I did see the connection between our understanding of purgatory and the Catholic understanding of justification that the two do go hand-in-hand no doubt in other words purgatory itself doesn't rest upon any series of verses but you can connect exegetically or hermeneutical II it really and I think you're going to have to admit this it really rests upon the teaching Magisterium of the church we're testing by Scripture and you are testing by the church's authority so we're challenging the church's authority to make those kind of interpretations because they violate the text on the context Protestants maintain that scripture says there is only a heaven and a hell but no purgatory Protestants believe it is an affront to the grace of God to teach that he only forgives part of the penalty for sin and yet there still remains some penalty that the sinner needs to pay if the sinner must say for even the temporal punishment of his sins then Jesus really didn't pay it all at the cross but Protestants point out that the Bible says the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sins Hebrews 10:14 States by one sacrifice Jesus has made perfect forever those who are being made holy Protestants point to first John to 1 and 2 which says if anybody does sins we have one who speaks to the Father in our descent Jesus Christ the righteous one he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world if we confess our sins he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness tonight you will hear both sides answer the question is the doctrine of purgatory truly biblical John's guests are father Mitch Pacwa an ordained Roman Catholic priest who is a member of the Society of Jesus a Jesuit he has an earned doctorate philosophy degree and is currently a professor at Loyola University in Chicago John's second guest is Protestant scholar dr. Walter Martin director and founder of the Christian Research Institute in California please join us for this discussion welcome we're talking about some of the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church and I'm sure that you've heard about the doctrine of purgatory that is professed by the Roman Catholic Church and that's we're going to discuss tonight first of all let me get some official statements on the board here tonight from the Catholic Church the Council of Trent said this canon 30 if anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened let him be anathema or the council of florence stated this the souls of those who depart this life with true repentance and in the love of god before they have rendered satisfaction for their trespasses and negligence 'as by the worthy fruits of penance are purified after death with the punishments of purification also the council of trent said this i firmly hold that there is a purgatory and that the souls detained there are helped by the prayers of the faithful i affirmed that the power of indulgences was left in the keeping of the church by Christ and that the use of indulgences is very beneficial to Christians dr. Martin why is this repugnant to Protestants primarily because in biblical theology in the New Testament the doctrine of purgatory is unknown it's not mentioned it was a later invention of Catholic theology it wasn't until Gregory the first that you have some five centuries after the Apostolic era that you have a pronouncement of this in the Catholic Church it was actually a device for or trying to answer the question there are some people not bad enough to go to hell and not good enough to go to heaven so how are we going to deal with it I have to deal with it in a method of purging them of their sins of the temporal punishment of their sins so purgatory evolved as a result of this in the context of church history biblically speaking of course the Apostle Paul teaches us in 2nd Corinthians chapter 5 that if you are a true believer in Jesus Christ to be absent from your body which is death is to be at home with the Lord not purgatory Christ is not in purgatory Christ is in heaven at the right hand of God so to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord for the believer in Philippians chapter 1 as he's getting ready to die the Apostle Paul says I'm torn between two things to depart and be with Christ which is far better or to stay here which is more necessary for you he says I'm going to stay here which is more necessary for you but he really longs to die because for me to live is Christ and to die is profit to go to be with the Lord there is no suggestion of purgatory in apostolic theology there's no mention of the concept whatever the only way you're going to get it is to read into the passages and it took them five hundred years to read it into the passages so I think it's a little difficult for Protestants to swallow what turned out to be the biggest money-making proposition in the history of Roman Catholic doctrine namely to actually pay money for Masse's and sell indulgences and in fact impute vicarious righteousness to people in a place that didn't exist except in the thought processes of Roman Catholic theologians father Pacwa you're on a biblical scholar okay and I think Walters got a book up there by Ludwig OTT okay what is it Catholic dogma there yes fundamental zakat you saw me bring it in fundamentals of Catholic dogma I didn't quote he had a section that I was going to quote but it's very brief he says under page 317 the faithful on earth can buy their good works perform in the state of grace performed in the state of grace render atonement for one another as Christ ahead and his expiatory sufferings took to place the members so also one member can take the place of another the doctrine of indulgences is based on the possibility and reality of vicarious atonement the Apostle Paul teaches this insights Colossians chapter 1 SEC Corinthians chapter 12 second Timothy 4 in other words the point is that what you're essentially dealing with here is the imputed the imputation of the prayers the Saints of the Virgin Mary and of the sacrifice of the mass to the benefit of the soul suffering in purgatory this I find extremely strange because when we were discussing justification by faith father Pacwa before he was dead set against the imputation of the righteousness of God as a legal forensic act yet here in purgatory he doesn't object to it at all but I'm coming to it here's you get your biblical scholar okay you're no testing the professor right okay got a dollar the words of the scripture means something to you and yet you have your theologians admitting it's not found in the scripture okay no okay let's deal with them that is you first do we know that there are a lot of other things that we believe that I know you believe that are not in the scripture as such okay the Trinity that is not a word found there and that's one of the reasons that the Jehovah Witnesses deny it okay and so that we can't deny something because the word is not in Scripture otherwise you'd be using the same kind of reasoning process that the Jehovah Witnesses do and I we never do that yeah okay so that were that we don't want to do it all and the thing that we also know is that the doctrine of the Trinity is not spread out anywhere in Scripture in the way that we see it in the counsels or the crease right but we know that the counsels in the creeds when they speak on the two nature's of Christ on the penis of the god that we know that they're taking that from the sense of Scripture okay without having scriptures that explicitly spell it out that same process went on by the same people in terms of the doctrine of purgatory now in terms of the scriptures that you're right that we don't have a tax that explicitly mentions it but we have text that we have to deal with very seriously and I must admit this too the more I studied this you know for the preparation for this the more I did see the connection between our understanding of purgatory and the Catholic understanding of justification that they to do go hand in hand no doubt first of all the text that we want to deal with at the beginning is in Matthew chapter 6 and after Jesus says you've heard the commandment and by the way the context here begins at verse 20 says unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and the Pharisees you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven so that's how it starts off what did you mean you have heard from them that if you kill anybody you'll go to hell I say if you're even are angry with them okay and then Jesus goes on you know lose no time settle with your opponent while on the way to court verse 25 with him otherwise your opponent may hand you over to the judge will hand you over to the guard who would throw you in for a spill a case that is into prison and there I warn you you will not be released until you have paid the last penny so that's what Christ our Lord says then we also take a look at Matthew chapter 12 when he's talking about the sin against the Holy Spirit says whoever says anything against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven but he says that you also can and if you commit the sin against the Holy Spirit you can't do anything about it in this life or the next but that means that for other sins the implication would be that you can do something about it in the next life as well as in this life then in terms of the text about the Prison what did Jesus do after he died after he died he defended you know again in to kill Akane that the same word that was mentioned at the prison in Matthew chapter 5 and there he goes to preach to the souls who've died there so this prison seems to refer in first Peter 3 to a place with sold off which gets to another text that we also have to deal with when Jesus says to the Good Thief this day will be with me in paradise Jesus did not go up to heaven Jesus went down to this prison that's what he calls paradise alright not into heaven at all as a matter of fact even after he rises from the dead and Mary Magdalene clings to him he says don't cling to me now I have not yet ascended to my father so that we see that his understanding of going up to heaven to open up the gates of heaven is that only on the ascension day when you go to the right hand of the Father does he go to heaven and only then are the gates of heaven opened up and at that point does the Good Thief go there not on the day he died well where was the Good Thief you know before he cry you went up into heaven okay and now unless we understand this purgatory and if furthermore that those who know have those last pennies to be paid will also go there and deal with that not as something that they merit on their own but even in purgatory is the grace of Christ that's operative to purify them or the effects of their sins or any venial sins that have not okay we've got quite a few verses that are on the board and we're going to take a break and we come right back Walter will give you a chance to examine and explain those all right so stick with us hi we're back we're talking about the doctrine of purgatory that the Catholic Church is claiming his part of their dogma that which people need to believe that when a person dies that the temporal punishment that has not been paid by them is purged in a place called purgatory and we're talking about the fact that it's not mentioned in Scripture but the fact of like the statements that are made at the creeds that Scripture the sense of Scripture has been taken and father Pacwa is claiming that this brings you to the consensus of purgatory with other verses that he's gone through and dr. Martin I just happen to know that your PhD work was in the councils and so you should be familiar with that and then I'd like you to kind of take your time and go through these verses and explain why it is you think this does not teach purgatory in fact teaches absolutely something else of course father Paco is perfectly correct when he says that you don't have to have the name of a specific doctrine for it to be their Trinitarian theology is there in the text even though the name Trinity doesn't appear the theocratic kingdom is there even though the word theocracy doesn't appear we know that also that isn't really the issue the issue that we're dealing with is the actual text in their proper context and in the Matthew 5 passage which he quoted Jesus is by no stretch of the imagination talking about the afterlife he's talking about how as an illustration people are conduct their affairs in this life and he says because if you don't do this why you don't save your arguments quickly with people in this life they're going to throw you into prison and you're not going to get out to be paid the last nickel which meant I quite obviously pay your debts and try and come to an agreement with your adversary as quickly as possible to extrapolate that to a purgatory after death is the classic non sequitur in logic it doesn't follow at all because the context isn't even saying that context is talking about earth and not heaven now if you wish to base your doctrine of purgatory on a conglomerate of verses and then when you get finished say this is all talking about the same place you got to begin the place where it specifically states the doctrine this doesn't state the doctrine at all that's the first one go to the first one in Matthew chapter 12 axure as a parallel to that and a Synoptics in mark chapter 3 and in mark chapter 3 when you put the two accounts together it makes a great deal of sense it doesn't come out with what Apocrypha mout with in fact what he specifically says there is whoever shall blaspheme the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness not in this age of the one to come but is guilty of ionian our Macchio's which is everlasting the sin or eternal sin which means that the sin against the Spirit is a sin of eternal punishment and for which there is no forgiveness there's another unforgivable sin also which is awesome not mentioned which happens to be the dying in unbelief willful unbelief of Jesus Christ gospel and truth to the gospel this also is I only on OMA TOC of everlasting sin but the real point there in the passage in Matthew 12 and the cross reference is not at all what he's saying it is in fact in context it's saying quite the opposite is talking about an everlasting sin the passage which was the other passage atchoo in a theater that's right we're speaking first Peter 3 I can only rejoin to that that the great roman catholic scholar dalton I did in Edward Brahms book on the subject of commentary on Peter as doing the most definitive work on this subject and it says that he has done the most excellent work in this area and Dalton having drawn together all the father's all everybody he could get his hands on on the subject of what first Peter says he comes out with the direct opposite of what you are saying namely that this passage has been in dispute for a long time theologians have kicked it around for years descended into hell or passing after Hades is a very open thing and he refers to it as a sphere of life Christ went and preached in his resurrection as the Redeemer to those who were not in purgatory dogsy says but he's proclaiming to the fallen angels and who have died in the past that God's word has come to pass the prophecies have been fulfilled Messiah is here and their damnation is filled now I think dolphins work on the subject is not a Protestant work in the Roman Catholic works is a very clear position to refute what you're talking about in other words purgatory itself doesn't rest upon any series of verses which you can connect exegetically or harmonically it really and I think you're going to have to admit this it really rests upon the teaching Magisterium of the church the church has the right to interpret Scripture in Catholic theology the church specifically states this is what this passage means to us therefore you are bound under obligation to Authority the church to accept it we're testing by Scripture and you are testing by the Church's authority so we're challenging the church's authority to make those kind of interpretations because they violate the text in the context one more that one more thing that father Pacwa brought up there and I think is absolutely right on target and that was he said that in studying about purgatory the doctrine of justification that the Roman Catholics are presenting absolutely coincides with that I think you are absolutely right yes and I think that's why Luther and the Reformers saw purgatory and prayers for the Saints and merit and satisfaction all clearing up with the doctrine of justification can you explain that and father popper I think that's the key in that we want to talk about here at Martha's and the doctrine of justification a person is declared righteous by God on the basis of Christ's merits not our own in the case of purgatory which is follows the Roman Catholic doctrine of justification being combined with sanctification in purgatory you get the imputed merits of the Saints the prayers of the Saints the masses and so forth for there's question but but but these others are imputed and it's even stated by us vicariously imputed so that you are actually bearing their sins and the punishment by helping them for the temporal punishment and ties in with the justification by works which is what the Reformers argued about in Catholic theology they just don't have Christ declaring you righteous a Fiat act of God where he does it in effect you are getting merits from other people and you are combining those merits therefore you're adding to faith works now works are the outgrowth of saving faith they are not any combination with saving faith for the purpose of the redemption of the soul and that's what purgatory really is father Pacwa if I were to ask you I say to him do you believe that if you were to die tonight you would immediately go to purgatory would probably say well I think so but I don't know when you get in the Catholic theology this is part of the problem the lack of assurance that is given in the New Testament these things are right into your little children who believe in the name of the Son of God you and me that you may know you may have assurance that you're certain that you have eternal life and I think that's the point where we we have a disagreement right you have to wait till after death to find out if you have escaped purgatory okay and we got to cut in here and I want you you've got a minute thirty two to pick out one of those things and go after it okay we're out of time I would just have to say that you're right we're not sure because that's not scriptural to be sure that Paul himself was not sure as we talked about before he was not positive that he was going to be saved and he knew that they had to foster to his body and that he had to suffer in this life as a matter of fact Christ even said that he would suffer and he's the one that talked about after in 1st Corinthians 3 saying that no I don't even judge myself he's the one that goes on to say that all of our works will be tested as if by fire and it's either if you build on the one foundation of Christ that whether with straw hay wood or precious stones silver and gold that if you have built on Christ even if you built with works that were lesser quality that those will be tested by fire now the text of that obvious is you will know gives at the end but all of most of us are going to die and most Christians have died before the end time so that when we have to say them is that that testing takes place that purification by fire that Paul talks about must take place before they can go to heaven and because they're dying before the end of the world okay and that we need to have that purification and it's not an uncertain about Christ's salvation but rather we are positive that those in purgatory are saved by Christ it's just that they're not purified enough to go to heaven where no impure thing can enter as we see in the book of Revelation okay we're going to pick up this again because we certainly haven't exhausted this but Walter you got just a short comment that we've got it closed for this week to refute what father Parker says I referred to a Roman Catholic translation of the Bible with the footnotes imprimatur and niha lobstah on a commentary on Romans chapter 5 your church says a development of the doctrine of justification by faith it is God who affects man's justification through Christ like this gives us believer a firm confidence in his salvation you ain't got it alright let's let's let's say that the assurance of salvation is a path of all by itself and I'm sure everybody wants to hear it so let's get into it next week please join us tonight John Ankerberg will examine what Roman Catholicism teaches concerning their doctrine of purgatory and indulgences are these doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church truly biblical officially the Catholic Church at the Council of Trent instructed Christians to profess I steadfastly hold that purgatory exists and that the souls they're detained are aided by the prayers of the faithful I also affirm that the power of indulgences has been left in the church by Christ and that the use of them is especially salutary for Christian people Protestants deny that the Catholic doctrine of purgatory is biblical primarily because in biblical theology in the New Testament the doctrine of purgatory is unknown there is no suggestion of purgatory in apostolic theology there's no mention of the concept whatever the only way you're going to get it is to read into the passages and it took them five hundred years to read it into the passages now in terms of the scriptures that you're right that we don't have a tax that explicitly mentions it but we have text that we have to deal with very seriously and I must admit this too the more I studied this you know for the preparation for this the more I did see the connection between our understanding of purgatory and the Catholic understanding of justification that they to do go hand in hand no doubt in other words purgatory itself doesn't rest upon any series of verses which you can connect exegetically or hermeneutical II it really I think you're going to have to admit this it really rests upon the teaching Magisterium of the church we're testing by Scripture and you are testing by the church's authority so we're challenging the church's authority to make those kind of interpretations because they violate the text in the context cancels in purgatory be aided by the prayers of Christians does the Catholic Church still believe in the use of indulgences the Roman Catholic Church teaches that people by their good works can merit for others the forgiveness of their temporal punishment percent but Protestants deny this and hold that Christ alone can forgive the eternal and temporal punishment which every man deserves Protestants do believe that a Christian can help another can suffer help and even pray that God will help others but Protestants strongly deny that one Christian can merit any part of redemption for another especially the remittance of another person's temporal punishment in purgatory Protestants believe each man must make his own spiritual decisions during this life his eternal destiny rests on whether or not he believed on Christ the Bible says believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved once the man dies his eternal state is sealed therefore it is not my prayers and works and righteousness by my own power that does any good for any soul in purgatory it is only because of my belonging to Christ that anything I do can have a good effect for anybody else and it can be transferred to them because they are members of the body of Christ and I can do penance for them since you can by curiously atone for those in purgatory by offering penance for them as you said before are you trying to teach thereby that you are capable of doing for them as a man what Jesus Christ blood can't do I'm not supplementing it I'm receiving it for the sake of somebody and in applying that grace and you know interceding as a member of the body of Christ as one who belongs to Christ for another member of Christ but if it's one sacrifice to sin forever and he made it all on the cross by the necessary for you to supplement it officially the Roman Catholic Church teaches if anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the penalty of eternal punishment so blotted out that no penalty of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in the world to come in purgatory before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be open let him be anathema but Protestants insists that God sent Jesus to die on the cross to pay the total punishment for man's sins and God's forgiveness freely provides for both the temporal and eternal punishment 1st John 2:1 is appealed to which says he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world in Protestantism justification is an act of God's grace a judicial declaration acquitting the center of guilt and delivering him from all condemnation it's a totally free forgiveness of sin and a sure title to eternal life finally when the Apostle Paul wrote in the book of Romans we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from works does he conflict with the Apostle James who wrote in his book a man is justified by works and not by faith alone all james is saying is the world must see the existence of your faith in in the works that you perform that's the sphere of justification before men but the spirit justification before God precedes that God saw in Romans 4 that made for him Lizabeth and Johnson romans 4 that abraham already was righteous God said so and but yet nobody else could see that till he raised the knife over Isaac yeah then they knew that's all James is talking about another way to understand the text is that it is Christ giving James the power to his work it's not two separate act of justification and that's one of the other things that the Catholics want to do it is one act of justification that's going on in both texts on one hand we're talking about you know what God's doing but on the other hand we're also seeing the other side that deals with you know the good work that we must do for the faith to be a lively faith and to receive the kind of Maris's Jesus himself says that we also see but in him it does not work to him that does not work to him that does not work but believes in the one who justifies the ungodly his faith is counted as righteousness and time literature the transformed life is vital in Protestant theology but it is not that which justifies a man rather the transformed life comes as the immediate result of being justified which Protestants call sanctification Protestants believe man cannot merit justification in his own strength are merited by working in cooperation with God's prevenient grace if he could salvation wouldn't be totally the gift of God John's guests our Father Mitchell taqwa an ordained Roman Catholic priest who is a member of the Society of Jesus a Jesuit he has an earned doctorate philosophy degree and is currently a professor at Loyola University in Chicago John second-guessed his Protestant scholar dr. Walter Martin director and founder of the Christian Research Institute in California please join us for this discussion welcome we're talking about some of the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church and tonight I think you'll find we have a very interesting discussion going we're talking about the doctrine of purgatory first of all what's the evidence for purgatory and part of this discussion is two things first from one of the Catholic theologians we find this statement concerning purgatory the faithful on earth can by their good works performed in the state of grace render atonement for one another then he goes on and declares that Pope Clement the six declared in the Jubilee bull about the Treasury of the church and officially mentioned that also the merits that is the atoning merits of the saints the church draws upon them in order to secure the remission of temporal punishment for those who are in purgatory and right along with that the Council of Trent stated it this way if anyone says that after the grace of justification has been received to every penitent sinner this would assume that after the time of baptism you've committed a mortal sin to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted and the depth of eternal punishment is blotted out in such a way that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world or in the next in purgatory before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened let him be anathema dr. Martin we closed last week talking about the fact that this centered in on the whole system that Roman Catholicism has concerning how man can be forgiven of being justified by faith according to the scripture that the Protestants usually are talking about and Roman Catholics themself even admit this for example in the faith of millions it talks about the fact that if you have the doctrine of justification it would completely destroy wipe away and father Pacwa admits this as well it would completely destroy this whole system of meriting for those that are relatives in purgatory it would take away this merit of your own satisfaction paying satisfaction for your own sins what is the evidence in the scripture that you would like to give to us that would speak directly to this problem and then it ends up with the fact of how can a person know for sure he's not going to purgatory he's not going to hell can he know that from the biblical data he certainly can know it from the biblical data because John writes in his first epistle that we should go on believing in the name of the Son of God and those of us who do know Greek orders to have knowledge that you have eternal life and that you may keep on believing in the name of the Son of God Christ spoke of passing out of death into life no judgment that ends in death to those who are in Christ Jesus John 3:36 exactly the same idea but you're perfectly correct this Roman Catholic doctrine hits at the very heart of the biblical doctrine justification by faith and salvation as a gift of God because if the passage we read once before comes to mind again if we look at it carefully it tells us in Hebrews chapter 10 that Jesus Christ Macross by one offering has completed forever them which are being sanctified so it is a completed action by the sacrifice of the cross and the sanctification process continues on as a result of the completed action but you see in Catholic theology the sanctification process is part of justification and is tied to the merit of works and even vicarious atonement by living members of the church so you add to the work of Christ and that's what Protestantism objects to that's what the Reformers objected to if you add anything to grace no longer grace but works at the error of the Galatians or father Pacwa speaks like to that one thing that you need to speak to that came up last work last week and that was the fact of no unclean thing will enter Heaven okay Christians obviously do have sin in their life a lot of people watching tonight may have sinned they're Christians okay what happens if they die and they haven't confessed that soon if God saw us as ourselves in our carnal nature as Paul describes in Colossians and enrollments particularly Romans chapter 7 if God saw us that way it would be impossible to enter the kingdom of heaven but God sees us clothed in the righteousness of Christ he accounts us righteous he does not impute sin to our account so that if we died tonight let's say and we had walked out and fallen down and taking the Lord's name in vain that would be a mortal sin then we would not go immediately to hell because we did that because Christ's merit which the church speaks of all the time is a repository of divine ongoing grace so our righteousness is in Christ and not in ourselves and there the merits of the Saints aren't imputed to the merits of Christ that are imputed that covers it exactly father Ponk we'll come on back well first of all the understanding that the Catholic Church has about this issue of the Saints know that imputing for one another praying for one another our basic understanding is grounded in our faith in the way we understand the doctrine of the body of Christ that the souls in purgatory have not ceased being part of the body of Christ nor have the souls in heaven ceased being part of the body of Christ that all of us are radically you not so radically united in Christ that we are still parts of one another even more so than the parts of my body are attached to me because it's Christ who makes this one therefore it is not my prayers and works and righteousness by my own power that does any good for any soul in purgatory it is only because of my belonging to Christ that anything I do can have a good effect for anybody else and that it can be transferred to them because they are members of the body of Christ and I can do penance for them as a matter of fact Jesus talks about that in terms of preparing yourself to cast out demons unless you do much prayer some cannot be cast out of the clip on much prayer and fasting for instance so you put a little s you put a little s on your sweatshirt thin and you become the Savior and take a little where John - firstly on to rather than Louise's job but rather than putting a little s on my sweatshirt it's like less meaning to save your folks out there in the audience we forgot to tell you that the less meaning Savior Jesus is the big Savior and and then we would be working with him no rather than be putting a little S on my sweatshirts and I'm a little Savior it's rather I belong to the Savior so much that when Paul persecuted them he doesn't say why are you persecuting them why are you persecuting me whatever you do to the church you do to Jesus Christ or is it in the Acts of the Apostles chapter 9 talking to Paul whatever or also in Matthew 25 whatever you do to the least of my brothers or sisters you do to me not to them to me what you do to the church to do to Christ when Paul says based on his own experience of price thing your meal a little Savior you're doing it to Christ you're doing it to me because I belong to Christ because of my own merits not because of anything I am but I'm an adopted son of price or doctor daughter price and erratic radically United to him and it is only on that merit given to me as great by Christ not a merit I have in my own that makes me part of the body of Christ through baptism and by the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling within me that I'm able to do that and the text that we understand speaking to that is in Colossians chapter 1 now I rejoice in my sufferings on your behalf and I fill up the things that are lacking in the afflictions of Christ in my flesh on behalf of his body which is the church you know the word lipsti spits used there don't you yes yes do you know that Lightfoot in his commentary made a study of it nice ellipsis suffering there is never ever in the entire New Testament ever used vicariously in terms of suffering it's always used in the afflictions that man gives to a man but it's a suffering in this case he's wrong because we see that he's doing this for that which is lacking in Christ Christ's afflictions and so that he has one text that he doesn't include into did you see that the same words are used about a pampered itis who wants to give his life on behalf of the service of the church same words are used for him and we don't get the idea that it's vicarious atonement that we simply are talking about the same thing that Jesus that would happen they persecuted the prophets they're going to persecute you we simply are talking about the same thing that Jesus said would happen they persecuted the prophets they're going to persecute you but here he adds and and mu I'd like to say we don't understand it we Catholics do and the reason that we do so is because neither Connecticut and the reason we understand it because Paul says it is on behalf of his body the church and he says that explicitly so that what I myself experienced and suffering is able to be sent to the other parts of the body of Christ just like these we got I ingest in one part we've got to do something real important right here dr. Martin would you actually read those verses in context please do you have them they're in Scripture and I think it's important that we actually read the text of what dr. River father Pacwa dr. Paco is also talking about here to make sure that we catch the sense of Scripture Colossians chapter 1 I mean I read from verse 24 as it begins of paragraph we're now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up that which is the hind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake which is the church that I ask you to do something before you do is read the verse in front of it in the verse after sure if you continue in the faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you have heard and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven where I Paul and made a minister 25 wherever I am made a minister according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you to fulfill the word of God it's obviously in the context 23 24 and 25 suffering as a believer not vicariously for anything but actually suffering as a result of being a Christian being a preacher of the community the minister of hanging a preacher a minister of the gospel as the minister he has been afflicted is the word all right and that same word is never ever used any other way in the New Testament and sure all of us as Christians we share in the afflictions serving Christ we served the by of Christ in proclaiming the gospel to other people in counseling and so on and it will cost us we send missionaries out some of them die it costs us to preach the gospel and that's why we're just like Christ the father taught things that you said something that was very important you said before that you Catholics understand this to be the passage what's interesting is that you understand it as a priest to teach that because the Magisterium of the church has interpreted the passage to mean that you don't have any choice whereas the protestant can read the context and say hey 24 23 24 and 25 don't teach that at all and we don't have a Magisterium that says no matter what you think that's what it teaches and all the more the pity for you and that you missed that oh good first of all the thing that it said paul himself rejoiced if not in this bleeps okay it's not in his big film it's in its past a machine so he's our friend in his sufferings not in his creatures right and it's those suffering and of course if the sufferings that come as a minister and and anybody and whether you Kristen you know Catholic or Protestant you know if you live for the gut the more you live for the gospel the more you're going to suffer and that's just the way that it goes in the world but I said to you that these offerings that he's talking about they're follow right after he says that he's the minister that's supposed to proclaim and preach and it makes obvious sense that the fact is that in his preachings it cost him and we know from the record of acts that are cost him but he admitted where the King James translates incorrectly as it does in two thousand times according to Protestant British scholars in the nineteenth century that it says as you say as you quoted in the King James the behind of now that doesn t make this sense in English but if the Greek word is prepared on behalf of you know who paired followed by the genitive and it's on behalf of the body of his body of Christ sure we have no problem with that that we on behalf of serving others we do it on their behalf there's no problem with that but we don't get vicarious atonement out of that yeah that's and that's one of the things you just missing because you know why we don't is because it contradicts what the the it contradicts Scripture which says there's only one who made atonement for us concerning sins that's Jesus you are robbing Jesus himself of his redemptive work if that were the understanding of the Catholic Church I would reject that but the Catholic Church does not teach that at all you know tension but in your neck today you are bringing that around not it so not at all so instead what we're dealing with is another mystery and wick and it isn't one of the mysteries that Paul talks about themselves keeping out of mystery that flips us is never ever used in the New Testament in terms of what you're talking about let me finish what I sang though that before we get to closest thing that the it's a mystery in which there is no way that we would say that our suffering for the sake of the rest of the body of Christ it's something that you know takes away from or adds to the sufferings of Christ it is Christ working in us and it is his suffering being experienced in us and us bearing that suffering rather than us being it when you like that Officer that Christ is merited at all but you've got a merit to get the merit no your our work to get moving again it he gives us that merit and me but not until you do something until you work and you do works is not it so actually are you not Catholic doctrine it's what that's what looks saying right here well Lutie God he may be saying that but that's not what Trent says with Trent says is that you cannot do those good actions unless price gives you the grace to do so and that it is his great empowering you to do those good acts not your good acts yeah but you're making a size that even though Creina yes but even though Trent says that you are given that grace by God they say but not to the extent that it's not you doing it in the strength of Christ right you have to do it or doesn't just automatically hang on that's right we object to its Christ who does it all but no no American can groom it's not condign or congruous merit there's no merit whatsoever and so this does it all so that there's nothing at all that you yourself do and not as if you're providing redemption that's what scripture says I guess that means that neither goes with the teaching of the church that had that no I obviously I'm committed to is having authority no my own experience this is that you cannot do those good actions unless Christ gives you the grace to do so and that it is great empowering you to do those good acts not your good Act yeah but criticized that even though crying out yes but even though Trent says that you are given that grace by God they say but not to the extent that it's not you doing it in the strength of Christ right you have to do it or doesn't just automatically Haley that's right I'm sure we object to its Christ who does it all but no no meritum can groom it's not condign or congruous merit there's no merit whatsoever it's a race does it all so that there's nothing at all that you yourself do and manages you're providing redemption that's what scripture says I guess that neither goes with the teaching of the church they've had that you know I obviously I'm committed to is having authority nor does it fit my own experience but there I see my own experience even that I'm presented with the option to do grace to receive a moment of grace or to reject it now when I accept it you know buy-in with my own will saying yes I'll say yes that grace of Christ I know that it is Christ doing it in me and that it is not me doing it by myself but you know and if it were me doing on my own I'd be committing sins we can I hear so use a Roman Catholic scholar the Catholic response for other struggling schists an apologist answering Protestants when you're dealing with the subject we're talking about right now talking about salvation and the merits of Christ and so forth when confronted with the offer of salvation a person has given the impulse to respond with faith which is always a gift right always an act of the whole person when we speak of faith as a gift we mean that no human being can do anything to merit it other than it is freely bestowed by a gracious god that's right now if you see art now see I know it is now if if you can't do anything to merit it how is it that after you have been saved you can merit it for somebody else in purgatory because what I can do is receive that continue to receive the grace of Christ and say Lord I want to do that I want to receive this and I want to pray for this other person just as I do when it's still alive when people are alive people I've offended for instance one of the real healing things that helps reconcile people in this life is praying with them and for them and what we believe is that that process is not ended by death peak not because we're powerful or because we have a little S on us that means we're little favor but rather because they are still part of the body of Christ just as much as they were on this earth and that as a matter of fact even more so in the sense that those who are in purgatory are absolutely assured of their salvation and that they not only have confidence they have absolute assurance assurance all the salvation that only those who are redeemed are able to receive that purification in purgatory to prepare them to enter the gates of heaven are you trying to say that the souls in purgatory who are being punished for temporal / temporal punishment have not only confidence in their salvation but assurance of it and you don't I have absolute confidence in my salvation about the assurance and I have assurance at this moment and again we have to be careful about not getting to the no debate about free will we keep getting into it but it's hard to avoid because I don't know you know about the next moment whether I will continue to be faithful I pray to God that I will always be open to His grace so that I can be faithful but it depends on you there and are you not sure there's a part of it where I have to it depends I feel a difference there you can see the difference well I believe we depend on Christ whose works already done and in the bank right okay but if I have to in any way have his credit his merit his power and mine this is where the Protestants say uh-uh if it's on me yeah then we would join your ranks but if it's based on Christ if it's if it's a solid foundation is Christ and that Christ and me you see that's where we'll never get assurance I agree with you on Catholic theology you'll never get assurance under your saliva that's right but I'm putting Protestant theology they look at the scripture verses that say it's on Christ well so do we the dip with the addition of course that I have to say yes to it in my free will that I have a choice and that's the only point in which I have anything to say well I buy my free will say yes to that grace now Walter with that thing that well the thing that I would have to ask you is view thereby deny that humans freewill has anything to do it no we don't get credit for it we don't merit it like you do what we believe that God helped us to come to that point and we read it for it where I get credit for it though congruous merit well we're saying if you could just drop the merit point we'd be friends gee I paid all these odds be friends without dropping it but I won't drop it but the thing rank because we go on it victims the personal about that merit again it's not that my act and this is not the Catholic understanding at all that my act of free will no Maris anything it's a simple saying yes to a God gives as his merit by Christ on the cross I am concerned with one thing though for the clock life yes since you can vicariously atone for those in purgatory by in penance for them as you said before are you trying to teach thereby that you are capable of doing for them as a man what Jesus Christ blood can't do no no as a matter of fact again as I keep on saying that it's precisely the power of the blood of Jesus Christ operative within me that makes anything good I do for somebody else good it's not good because I do it you're supplementing the atonement no I'm just merely an instrument but tonight up lamenting it I'm not supplementing it I'm receiving it for the sake of somebody and in applying that grace and you know inner-city as a member of the body of Christ as one who belongs to Christ for another member of Christ but if it's one sacrifice for sin forever and he paid it all on the cross why did the necessary for you to supplement because that person died his or her sin has not yet fully appropriated that sacrifice of Christ for themselves they do not yet live that sacrifices again get to the whole issue justification for us that the sacrifice of Christ is something that will transform me entirely and if there are still areas where I have not been transformed that indicates that I have not yet fully appropriated that sacrifice of Christ therefore I and others continue to pray for me and the reason that it is suffering is not because God wants to torture us but rather the way that the ego changes the way that my self might my old nature changes is precisely by dying to itself that process of dying to self is a painful process and if the soul after death has not yet been fully accepting of that grace poole appropriating it by by still maintaining some sin in his or her life either an attitude or memory or whatever then the greater christ needs to be there to transform them yet so it's not that it's anything but the greater crisis transforms it transforms them it's just rather that their sin has not left a greater price pool in John Deere let me come back to a Trent here I like the way you're going but let me pull you over to Canon 32 look it up there Canon 32 a wood session of same thing justification there on the Anathem as I believe yeah if anyone says that the good works of one that is justified or in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified you see they go to a pain to point out that it's partly yours - yes it says specifically that it's not just God's justification but the works are also yours you do the power of Christ and so on don't read on read okay or that the said justified by the good works which he performs through the grace of God in the merit of Jesus Christ by living member he does not unduly merit increase of grace eternal life and the attainment of that eternal life the attainment comes through the merit that you do in the power of Christ but you do it and and how does he perform it I love how our mystery works in the by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ yeah we're saying is that you don't have to do any in your power that God's done at all but lamps the gift that's given to you if you have to do something even in the power of Christ and we say that your approach the nice existence of free will and it well in the existence of free will because what I do is say yes to that and that the only merit I get is by the grace of God and by the merit of Jesus Christ and my act of my will to say yes to that grace is the only merit I can possibly consider and it's not even merit of my own it's rather married given to me as grace by Jesus Christ and by God Father you're quoted a moment before about those who do righteous righteous I would you make that quote again yes hopefully on the gaya soon a dko suspends the one who does righteousness or justification right he is righteous okay now transpose that to Roman's four won't fit what would we want it Abraham is already accounted righteous by imputation before he acts yes it didn't do righteousness it came to him before he did it except what is James saying however let's stick with Roman no no no no we'll go to James no no no we gotta see we got we can understand Romans without James because James says that Abraham was justified by what by works by his work sure but look so we have both not yeah if you're going to be like where's earth commercial I got over right I know you're gonna I'd I never denied dual justification justification before God well well he did like we mean by dual judge I'm going to explain okay in dual justification we're talking about two spheres mm-hmm the first sphere is spiritual and God alone is privy to it yeah the second sphere is temporal and men can see it uh-huh now I can't see the faith you have in Christ yeah that would justify you from your sins yeah but God can see it yeah God saw in Abraham that he was going to be declared righteous by faith yeah God gave him Redemption is the sphere of God's knowledge mm-hmm we can't see that but God saw it so he says he's righteous right I see it he's righteous right now James is saying look the kind of faith that does not move into the sphere that can be evaluated and perceived and and judged is not saving faith at all the demons have that kind of faith and they tremble we're going to say that right so all James is saying is the world must see the existence of your faith in in the works that you perform that's the sphere of justification before men but the Spirit justification before God precedes that God saw in Romans for the headless and Johnson Romans for the Abraham already was righteous God said so yeah but yet nobody else could see that till he raised the knife over Isaac yeah then they know that's all James is talking about but nobody was there to see him for one thing when he raised the hand over Isaac the deliverer Sawyer Isaac was there but nobody saw his good works it was done who was there today your millions is trying to point out to us I think we see that written down a lot of change is about oh but wait a minute you started out a little while ago saying just because it isn't explicitly affirm doesn't mean it cannot be inferred from the context are you exactly the same thing I know and I just want to say now you're starting to talk like you were faithfully infallible know that you had the same approach of creating a tradition for understanding attack I would have not if that's not the way that discussion is understood in the tradition of the church all that up how it's understood in the tradition of the church well all you're doing is making a new tradition now in the tradition of the church is that you know st. Agustin for instance and st. Thomas Aquinas in question 109 and the Summa Theologica country mr. Kuhn they both say that exactly what transfers that is that that justification that comes to us that must be in good works not so that people can see we don't need them to see it we're here to see it it's not for anybody to see it's for what we become it's for us to become those who have the heart and a mind of Christ it's for us to become ones who with egos are crucified and there's no longer effectiveness how does the world know that you're a believer unless you are justified in your faith by the works that you perform and once that's that's wrote I don't know if they will the world will know what I'm a believer or not that and that whether I'm justified and whether it's any good thing to judge any way that st. Paul said that you know we don't judge ourselves I don't even judge myself Paul says so I don't worry about them judging me but you have that fine great more it's more important for me to be so transformed that I live and I act like Christ by the grace of Christ and by the merit of Christ all right button in the passage in question in James I don't agree with Luther at all I'm not I know he wanted to die am I taking an oath room position yeah I'm simply saying that in James the same person is used as an illustration Abraham and in Romans in Romans it's God who justifies yes and in James if man who justified since man can't justify himself before God the only other place he can justify himself as before other men and his works testify to that or another possibility and this is the way that it's been understood in the church is that before Luther invented a new Docs and education by faith alone are available now don't give don't give Luther such a hard time well I mean he was a very good translator in exegete he made one mistake with one word yeah I mean and the Douay version has been corrected as many times of the King James but the point the point I was getting at before that digression is that another way to understand the text is that it is Christ giving James the power to do works it's not two separate acts of justification and that's one of the other things that the Catholics want to do it is one act of justification that's going on in both texts on one hand we're talking about know what God's doing but on the other hand we're also seeing the other side that deals with you know the good works that we must do for the faith to be a lively faith and to receive the kind of merit that Jesus himself says that we ought to seek but you're here made does work to him that does not work to him that does not work but believes in the one who justifies the ungodly his faith is counted as righteousness you can't believe without doing work hey nobody's denying it no and also to misty oh well that's not so sure that the authors at authenticity I'm agreeing to agree to receive also as part of righteousness as Jesus says in Matthew six merit and reward with your heavenly Father so that you make sure that you don't be like a hypocrite but you pray in secret to get what merit that you go and you give alms and secret so you don't get rewarded by other people you don't want them to see if there's a matter of fact that's the opposite of what you say we don't care if they see it you want to keep your righteous and I was in Catholic school or you guys told me was that I should do all these things to merit God's favor right but the way why should I do that when God already showed me his favor on the cross well the thing that we do because Jesus said so we did because he did say so in wrong I can't agree I know you do but the text in Matt in Matthew 6 is that you do these things in secret so that your father can give you merit you do these prayer and secrets and alms and fasting all that in secret so that you don't let other people see it you don't want them to see your righteous deeds and where there's righteousness but instead you want to do it so that only the father sees it and he will give you the reward there I wasn't when you were building st. Peters at the time of the Reformation that you sent out a papal decree that everybody should buy indulgences and publicly demonstrate their willingness to trust the pronouncements witness anything I did if that was a sin and that they did they did wrong I'm glad that it and there's a trend itself you know which is was no you know just knee-jerk reaction the words they repented of selling the indulgences and that's why I'm still selling them they're not selling indulgences the idea of supporting you know say like when somebody gives a donation so that mass can be said that it's to support the ministry that it's not the paper when I was in school it say I was difficult old you brought a mass card and you gave the money and you got the mass card because that was a means of helping the souls in purgatory and it was following through with the concept of end Ellen when I was in grammar school the sister taught us better that the theme that we were taught is that a charity well I don't know what they taught you but the sisters you know taught and also with with them as soon as I learned from he's the same thing that I've seen in the church document you cannot buy the mass you cannot pay for it it's an infinite value and that all you can do is make an offering to support the minister and that that's what that stipend goes for and you know as a matter of fact that want to make sure that we no judge would snow would avoid that we we have a rule that we know not to keep the cycle good and that's you know one is we try to give it to the poor encouraging that more and more among our own all the priests need that to survive on and that their income is so low that they have that that's how they survive and if they get you know a dollar they get fifty cents or they get you know give a lot of money it's insignificant as far as the value of the mass goes and if anything the value of what they offer is something more because it's a symbol of themselves and of their own suffering and home own to offer from somebody else but not because I can buy I'd like to get in here and and bring in something and ask you from the context of scripture again we brought up James as being the main hindrance to this idea of justification that's imputed and let me ask you to give me a definition of justification off the lips of our Lord Jesus where uses the proverb and says that wisdom is justified by her children what does justified mean there does it mean that wisdom will by her children go up and have a declaration before God somehow or does it mean that the children of wisdom will somehow infuse grace into wisdom and therefore she's justified what does it mean we sent for does it mean that the children of wisdom will somehow infuse grace into wisdom and therefore she's justified what does it mean first of all in to deal with that text note when he's talking about John the Baptist know that the word justice and justification has a wide range of media but you know what it is there and that's what I'm shooting at in that particular text he's giving definitely with one of the majority opinions and or uses in the Old Testament namely a legal justification no is that that no at the legal death of a nun can't be in other words wisdom is a proverb here and being personified into a woman and it saying that her children somehow justify her okay okay now I would submit to you if you look in your aren't and Gingrich your Greek lexicon which I'm sure you're familiar with you'll find seven different meanings to the word justified sure and one of the things that we have a problem in it is when we transfer over into James which is wisdom literature verses Paul who has systematic doctrine spelled out in Romans you've got chapter after chapter of the doctrine that Paul is preaching wisdom literature is practical and it takes that which is doctrine and applies it now if I can take the same interpretation of the word justified off of Jesus lift in his proverb that wisdom is justified by her children which has to mean that wisdom is vindicated by her children if you want to see what real wisdom is look at the children the children will vindicate wisdom will prove it you'll see the results now take that same understanding of the words justified and put it into the context if I can of James - James says what good is it my brother's if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds here James is answering the question about those who say they have faith but there are no there is no change in their life okay and he goes on can such a faith save him Luther and the Reformers said no it's a dead faith of faith that does not result in works is a dead faith that will never save you okay and it goes on if one of you says to him go I wish you well keep warm and well-fed but does nothing about his physical needs what good is it what kind of faith is that no good in the same way faith by itself if it is not accompanied by action is dead the Reformers would say sure that's true and so with the Catholics that's so are the Catholics but someone will say you have faith and I have deeds show me your faith without the deeds I'll show you my faith by what I do there's somebody that's standing there that's saying well listen let's have a contest I'll show the faith and you show the deeds and James gets a little sarcastic in here and says so all of those that think they can simply believe and no transformation has to come out of their life he gets a little sarcastic and he says hey you do real well with your Creed there your belief in God and all of that you believe that there is one God good even the demons believe that you've qualified to be a demon okay and Lutheran the Reformers said that in terms of faith a true faith is not just having an assent of the facts it's not just having a knowledge of the fact I had professors at school and I'm sure that you did that could new church history back and forth they knew the doctrines that we're talking about and didn't believe a stitch over time they knew it but that doesn't save you the demons know it even tremble they even go a little further than some people they're little scared about it but doesn't make sure that they're going to be saved I mean they're going to be in heaven so he goes on you foolish man do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless then he goes to Abraham as the illustration which is the same historical figure that Paul uses Paul has got done saying in Romans three that we conclude them that a man is justified without the works of the law he uses Abraham as an illustration Abraham didn't have any work it was he believed God and at that point it was reckoned to him as righteousness okay and he goes back to Genesis a certain part of Genesis 22 no 14 isn't it goes back to when a man believes God God says it was reckoned wretches jz6 ticks up Abraham and he goes to 22 right and he uses Abraham but how does he use him that's what we got to find out his point is to say this that real faith will always result in works real faith if I can use the same word that Jesus used justifies will vindicate a man who has faith see and look at how it fits perfectly was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous or vindicated or justified wasn't our ancestor Abraham vindicated for what he did in other words didn't it show wasn't he vindicated wasn't his true faith that Paul is talking about that when he believed in God God gave it to him and God who could see the heart so that's a real one no works no any other basis except your faith and my promises that gave him his standing which is what Romans chapter 4 says James picks it up and says that's right and how do we prove that this guy Abraham who says he's got it how do we know that he really does now out of his life his works will vindicate him which goes on let me just finish it up here you see that his faith and his actions were working together in his faith was made complete do we say that faith and the Reformation doctrine has to be complete sure that's what Hebrews was saying in one sense we have our standing in the other sense we are still being transformed into our standing which is Christ the thing that I would ask you then and it is first of all to specify more carefully than you have done the difference between justification as you're using it and vindication what the new ones that you're getting at that's different simply the fact that one comes as a result of true faith and the other one is a different basis altogether that justification is a declaration that God makes on Abraham's life apart from any work on the sole basis that he believed in God and and again we see that Walter is that basically what you were saying yeah yes certainly what I was saying but also in James I didn't invent John read the whole context I didn't invent a traditional interpretation anything like that it specifically says there we see that's J we see that how Abraham was justified we see we see it's a testimony a physical thing and something you can observe a phenomena you can see his works testify to the existence of faith that's what vindicated it so only if you change the meaning of the word knows us in the word verb justify to be vindicate and use it in that sense which you won't use when you apply it to Paul's use it huh that's Mannix you're a biblical scholar you know that the context is basically where you get the meaning of these exactly the same that thing that we have to see the here though is that on both sides you know I mean I would not you know use vindication in the sense that you do to translate Paul I know you whatever right it's over Tatum it means right off the lens of our Lord Jesus sure the thing that we also have to see is that it's not the only meaning and we can only accept the tenth the sense that you have if I accept your presuppositions and that you said theta that's the context and then I think okay but if I do not accept your translation say that that meaning of vision irreconcilable conflict then between James and Paul no no you certainly do you have known that you have known a writing Paul you you only say that we do because you also insist on the sense of invitation that that's part of Protestant theology sense it's the words that are used and this is well not quite again let me spend it reckoned well let me again I don't deny that use record you know in the words Keshava behind it nowhere did I deny that be and we again neither this Trent in Chapter eight is section six they deny by what they say they do not deny by what they say they say because remember what I wrote any remember Canon 32 there that I read to you concerning the fact that your works then cooperate with the Ray Rice Mary you have a sentence okay now let me get to so I can you knows make this the sense that we get out of it and it say that we believe that these works that he does as part of his faith as part of his justification are the grace of God working in him so that we see that we don't need to change the sense of indication here or the sense of justice to vindication here because it's these works that are flowing from the grace of Christ still acting in the man who believes and so that rather than seeing that James and Paul are opposite or opposed to each other no way that they can't be there in Scripture and that there has to be a unity of understanding between the two I have a concluding statement tonight from both of you and father Pacwa wrap it all up in one short statement there that's tough um I guess you know this that we would to see as Catholics but I said so many times they were saved by the grace of Christ and saved by that alone whether it's the great that has affected us in effectiveness in terms of our actions and that we by accepting it in our own act of faith but by our will you know accept the grace given to us to believe we don't believe on our own we don't have grace on our own it's all it's all with Christ us for but it is something that because it is God working in us through our will that you know and using that will that he gave us to begin with that there's a transformation of our personalities that will affect everything we do and and it is only because of our at complete union with Christ which he gives us that we have the power to do what we do and no other means is there okay and that that's the good news that we would know proclaim a proclaim and is the face of you know millions of newing okay dr. Martin the reason why there was a Protestant Reformation is because the combination of faith and works the individuals merit system which had been developed and evolved in the church had gotten the church to the place where she was selling the things of God and Trent had to admit it later on so what actually I would emphasize is the fact that the gift of God is eternal life it's by grace alone through faith not by works lest anyone should boast whether it's my works affected through the grace of Christ or works which I try and contribute towards my salvation whatever the use of works maybe if disqualified by biblical theology it is solely by grace through faith the instrument of faith in Jesus Christ and God wants us to have a transformed life as a result of this and if the transformation of the life is not evident then there is no justification by works in the life of the individual the world can't see it and that's a dead faith that's the difference and the difference is grace versus the combination of faith and works and that's why there was a Reformation gentlemen I sure appreciate your being here father Pacwa it's been great having you with us and I've enjoyed the back-and-forth and your friendship and we'll have to have you back again in the future if you'll come back yours and dr. Martin we're glad that you would come and share with us your thoughts as well and thank you for being with us during these programs good night

Channel: Veritas Dipolog

Views: 35,543

Rating: 4.4947367 out of 5

Keywords: Purgatory, Debate, Doctrine of Purgatory

Id: hrn7L-84Co0

Length: 80min 27sec (4827 seconds)

Published: Thu Apr 27 2017