Dragons & the Dragon Cult | The Elder Scrolls Podcast #8

[Music] what is up ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the fudge muppet elder scrolls podcast i'm scott and i'm here with michael and drew and today we are going to be talking all about the dragons and also the dragon cult so who wants to get us started with just some what are dragons the general uh gist without diving into the deepest stuff just yet i guess they're one of the most fascinating creatures if you could call them that to grace the older scrolls universe but they're not a creature unless you think argonian's a creature because it looks like a lizard they're actually a highly intelligent race of uh flying i guess you could call them reptilian could you yeah yeah definitely reptilian yeah flying reptilian beasts covered in scales they have wings and i just want to clarify because i don't want any comments saying they're wyverns not dragons that's such a stupid comment because a wyvern is just a type of dragon and that only really came about a few hundred years ago as well but yeah the general idea is oh only two legs that means it's a wyvern yeah generally speaking yeah but was it a d and d thing or was it no i think i think it kind of like originated in like the 17 1800s but as being a designation because it's like used in heraldry not so much they have any real folklore but they're just a type of dragon but to me yeah if it's in the elder scrolls they say it's a dragon that's the dragon in the same way in asian mythology that the dragon's like this sort of serpentine scaled and third kind of thing and it doesn't have necessarily have wings so you know you thought that's not a dragon it's a sky snake like you're under me and you actually see a lot of mythology about dragons being very similar to birds of prey as well because it's like very much rooted in the human idea of being terrified of snakes and birds of prey and things like that so you know it's very adaptable yeah yeah well anyway so they're big flying creatures but they're intelligent they have their own language uh there's a lot of mystery which i guess will talk about as to where the dragons originated from and i guess very interestingly they seem to have always been so they've been around forever seemingly yeah they can't and they're immortal they're more they kind of like rank up there in that sort of like mythological spirit kind of thing in the way that they're not like a some super organic creature with with like um you know a life cycle and they don't like procreate you know through um mating and stuff like that but they have um they're also well known for their affinity for magic and also you know the thumb and stuff like that which we'll get into but um i do like how they sort of explain i mean they just explain it away with magic but they fit their affinity for magic is what allows them to fly despite their non-aerodynamic frame and speak despite no lips and stuff like that which is a cool little ad as well yeah yeah so and i and it's it's the magic definitely then in that case which is something i think a lot of people forget does go beyond just breathing fire and doing dragon shouts yeah i mean obviously there's a lot of magical affinity to anyone who can use such elemental magic or slow time or do any of the things that a dragon can do with dragon shouts and it's unrelated but i do wonder can they use conventional magic as well i think they can there's no reason that they can't yeah i think there's i'm pretty sure there's even been things in the law but it might be from daggerfall time about them enchanting things um and then also like there's um dernavir and his um study of necromancy and stuff like that i mean you're kind of limited if you can only use the thumb necessarily or maybe not maybe it is all through the thumb but um i think there's no there's no limit like there's plenty of creatures that have magical sort of abilities without having opposable thumbs you don't need to be able to like cast it with just a hand or something like that and they're obviously very intelligent um immortal creatures like they have all of time to study and learn this kind of stuff so [Music] i guess that's as well something that i kind of in regards to their intelligence which is a kind of base trade about them you always hear that they're an intelligent race i've always pointed how much are they intelligent due to just being around for thousands and thousands of years like take a man for example and have him live for 30 000 years without degrading in any way he's probably a pretty wise dude you know yeah and a lot of their like being intelligent comes from just being so powerful they can kind of subjugate anyone who rivals them as well you know so it's when they say you know for them power equals truth and their fights are just massive debates we're using the voice it's like imagine trying to say they're wrong about anything it'd be like arguing with you except except if you breathed fire then then we wouldn't have any debates yeah you haven't seen my final form yet exactly there would be no kind versus law khan it would just it would just be a slaughter yeah but so um we know what they are roughly right but um where do they come from is the other uh question and so we can just sort of start talking about like where what lands they're said to come from because beyond that we if they are these sort of like immortal beings that have just sort of always been then they kind of just came from nowhere in the same like probably in the creation of time you know what i mean but let's just talk some geography first so um okay atmora and akavira are the big um talking points but you guys want to well the thing about akavir as well is obviously there's a lot of law which we'll talk about in a second about their involvement on akavir but one of the main reasons you say oh they come from akavir is because akavir means dragon land but if they're such you know like ever-present creatures you could kind of just call you could just get there see you know see a dragon be like oh this is dragon land it doesn't necessarily mean they come from there yeah that's true well i mean there are also in in further support of that the stories about the the syesi trying to after eating the men i believe trying to eat the dragons and them fleeing to tamriel is kind of like a theory from that they talk about red dragons and black dragons um and of course there's uh tosh raka which we talked about in the akavir podcast who was a capoten i believe right yeah who basically became a dragon and it's very hard to date the stuff that goes on in akavir as well so you can't we can't really say you know does this predate the stuff that was going on in atmora or did it come afterwards you know yeah i've also heard theories that uh the dragons in akavir might not have been just the same as the dragons we see in skyrim they may have just been a completely different type of race that looked like dragons perhaps based on the theme of akavi they could have looked a bit more oriental and you know being the dragons but that could explain perhaps why the science you were able to i guess you could use the word defeat them in a sense yeah because dragons are meant to be super super powerful and before you interject i'm not saying i subscribe to this idea it's just food for thought yeah i mean i sort of like the idea at least in my sort of head canon that the seyesi um when they were like they ate all of the men but then they're trying to eat all the dragons but they failed but then they came to um tamriel and they found what they were looking for okay riemann the dragonborn a person who would actually be able to be permanently able to like eat the dragons and kill them and so on and i feel like it's sort of i kind of get the idea that that um they are like the same kind of dragons like perhaps different forms like there's nothing stopping them from looking like we've seen serpentine dragons in skyrim and stuff and they look quite different to other ones so there's no reason that they can't the dragons can't look individual and maybe you know riff off some of those oriental features but i still think that in the elder scrolls dragon would be associated with those sort of immortal children of akatosh type thing although not always i think it was daggerfall that had a like a dragon ling type creature yeah but apparently they looked like a dragon but it's actually not yeah yeah there's also even um imps in the elder scrolls online that can use like an illusion magic spell to look like a kind of small serpentine dragon yeah but um i i feel like it's kind of more in the same way that you know how we have like the so like a komodo dragon you know what i mean like those kind of things it's not a actual dragon in the way that you and i mean for sure for sure and then the other theory is that the dragons came from atmora yes unless you have anything else to say about akavir no no um yeah so so the atmora that whole idea is all from the sort of dragon wars skyrim law that kind of has to place the dragon cult in skyrim at some point and like where did the the nords come from they came from atmora so that's how the dragons would have come with them like there's some sort of uh finessing to do with the actual timeline there as well like yeah yeah it's kind of you can tell that the whole dragon war thing was inserted later it wasn't originally in mind you know what i mean and and i think the book as well it talks about and this is something i find particularly interesting although we'll try not to get onto the dragon wars dragon cult stuff just yet but i do find it really interesting that it says that obviously the dragons ruled in atmora supposedly according to this text but basically that there was peace you know it talks about um i can find the exact quote it said in atmora where is gramor and his people came from the dragon priests demanded tribute and set down laws and codes of living that kept peace between dragons and men in tamriel they were not nearly as benevolent it's unclear if this was due to an ambitious dragon priest or a particular dragon or a series of weak kings whatever the cause the dragon priests began to rule with an iron fist making virtual slaves of the rest of the population so it kind of sounds like in atmora living under the dragons if you believe this i guess myth uh wasn't as bad especially with them worshiping animal gods and dragons being like the most powerful of all of them yeah yeah i don't you mean i i get the vibe that that when is grammar first came he sort of was maybe the dragon cult wasn't even a thing yet as such or at the same like power level as such and then so when isgramor came over he um he sort of sets up skyrim and with his 500 companions and and nordic civilization sort of spreads and the falmouth get beat out but then um you know maybe a couple of generations in that the dragon cult starts being a thing but they sort of treat skyrim as sort of like a a wilder frontier which sort of allows the dragons and the dragon priests to sort of get a firmer grip on it all as opposed to atmora which would have lots of other um political factors and entrenched sort of traditions and such kind of get what i mean i'm pretty sure i can't actually remember the king yeah but what's interesting is king harold who is um apparently the 13th in line of israel some people debate the israel line and stuff but i don't think there's really any reason to but um he was born in the first era and his reign starts 143 so this is all post-dragon war kind of stuff but he is remembered for being the first king to relinquish all holdings in atmora and basically making skyrim an independent just separate thing from atmora so that implies that everything before then that atmora and skyrim were rather connected which sort of to me i'm like what what does that make the isgramor um kings in skyrim before him if you know what i mean like what does um how does that work in with the dragon priests and stuff like that because the dragon priests were like these priest kings and then the dragons had power over them and the priests kings is like where did the traditional sort of monarchy fit in i feel like this just wasn't thought about when they were writing the law is my is my honest like from my heart that's my answer yeah but i like to be like oh and that's really interesting to think about and in a way it is because you you want to rationalize the law yeah no one wants to look at the law and be like there's the bad writing section yeah absolutely so i'm down for that yeah because that's what i feel like the dragons would kind of just stomp on his grammar and his companions if they started to get a bit too carried away with their power yeah yeah for sure and also beyond just stomping on them stomping on all over tamriel uh you know you don't see the same evidence of dragon priests and the dragon cult in the rest of tamriel i mean scott did you want to talk a little bit more about where dragons have been in in other parts of tamriel um yeah well there's the whole um so so we know that skyrim sort of seems to be there if you're trying to look at it chronologically like their touch point like when they sort of first started inhabiting tamriel in a large capacity from from what i remember um but they there's it's cal granted i think in his buddy dragons that went down into elsewhere and this is all the events the elsewhere dlc and they're trying to like basically use get the power of the moons and so on but they essentially get locked away in this in this vault by a bunch of heroes um and they get later in in the writings they get called like a demon weapon and stuff they they sort of it's sort of forgotten that they're dragons as time goes by but that's only so there's dragons in elsewhere um and that's also in part of their um mythology and so on i can't actually remember how canon this is that there were maybe it wasn't out of maybe it's a kirkbride thing or something about dragons in morrowind and why there's no dragons in morrowind but they were driven out by cliff races like if you imagine yeah cliff races like these like innumerable thousands of pests that sort of like do you know what i mean like it could be like it could it could work um you'd think they'd just take a big fire breath to the whole flock and just burn them to shreds yeah because that's the other thing i will say while we're still talking about dragons as a base concept i suppose there's this idea that they're actually way more powerful and even way larger in just raw physical size than you see in the game skyrim because obviously in skyrim we assume that you know there's more population in the cities white run is bigger than you know it actually looks on the fields and so forth so you can kind of imagine a dragon being as big as dragon's reach is meant to be compared to a human obviously we don't upscale the humans like oh all the humans are 10 times bigger but if we upscaled their city and then imagine a dragon landing on the top and being the same size proportionally yeah then i mean look at uh i think it's the legends card for odaving yeah is this giant dragon like wrapped around this like burning building yeah yeah absolutely because yeah there's concessions that have to be made for gameplay reasons and also it would be kind of silly if you're running around whiterun and the dragon is like to scale like bigger than all of whiterun kind of thing you know what i mean because it's you know rather small in game but um yeah i guess we could start moving on to uh actually talking about the deeper meaning of dragons and their relation to time and akatosh as a god of time because they're really really fundamental does anyone else want to start on this or um i guess a segway is that i could actually talk about is which is kind of again related to bass dragons but how hard is it to actually kill them because like you're about to go into the concept of time and things like that they're immortal in the sense that their souls can be resurrected by alduin but you know individuals or big groups of people can kill uh sorry can still kill them yeah it's just very hard you have to imagine their scales are extremely tough they're super big they can do all these different shouts and stuff like in skyrim they use what one shout at a time but really there's no reason they couldn't use slow time and things like that right yeah yeah of course i mean their language literally manipulates reality yeah so and yeah just being able ageless and immortal and and so powerful but they they can die what happens when their soul gets absorbed well here's a little theory i literally just i've sort of dabbled in it and thinking about it before but if you think about the dragons as and dragon's souls as actual like chunks of time so like a soul it's it's it's imagine if you had like the concept of time or acatosh whatever and it's like comes down and there's like lots of derivative souls some are larger than others such as alduin who's a big powerful firstborn because the whole idea children of akatosh it's just sort of like it can just be like derivative of if that makes sense so um but then if you think about one dragon consuming another dragon it's kind of consuming another like chunk of time and other dragon souls so it's kind of it's all like you know a bit like spore like you know they're going around in the cell stage and they're just cannibalizing other cells and getting bigger and bigger so basically like a matter can't be created or destroyed type thing where you've got time and you can just absorb will it yeah other dragon souls but it just yeah it kind of explains their intelligence as well because it says they literally like when they absorb the souls they claim their knowledge and their life essence so you know if they're really intelligent you can have a very powerful dragon who you know you know like power equals truth they consume another soul they become more intelligent by absorbing all of their you know memories or whatever else and that's how they become such a powerful intelligent race yeah yeah you definitely could have that especially seeing as there there's seems to be so many of them all living for thousands of years all dying or being absorbed and knowledge just being passed around and so on so yeah that's the way i understand it that it's not um they even when they're absorbed or whatever and like properly dead they're not dead they've sort of just become part of a larger soul like a better another dragon you know what i mean and and in a way what's the difference then i know obviously there's the physical difference but between a dragonborn filled with souls of dragons who can functionally do very much like similar things and a dragon i think i think there is none really because like we can see that like you know as the dragonborn you absorb mirak who was another dragonborn another he's in possession of another dragon soul and um he absorbs you absorb all of mirac and then there's no reason for me to think that then another dragon couldn't kill the dragonborn and absorb their soul or just exactly how you do it vice versa and that's why it's sort of like so kind of like only a dragon can kill properly kill and another dragon because besides the physical manifestation is that there's that soul that chunk of like immortal time kind of thing effects could that change personalities though this is a pretty out there theory but like how about we just get outerwen to kill parthenax and then alderwin just permanently chills out from getting all this mad sage knowledge yeah maybe i don't think it works like that yeah it's just funny there could be interesting elements to play with uh though for like story potential but um overall we know that dragons and dragonborn by extension really i guess are are involved with um time and akatosh the god of time and we can kind of start getting into it but there's this concept of akka or akatask another thing and this is a little bit out there it's less like canon but it's the concept of of time where because there's various interpretations of um of the different time gods so there's like auriel the elven sort of king of the gods but he created time but then there's sort of akatosh the dragon god you know and then there's alderwin who's also kind of confusing because it's first born of akatosh and then other people like oh it's an avatar of but basically this whole like just shards of akka idea is that you have this sort of big oversoul or dragon over soul concept and then you have auriel as personification of the beginning of time akatosh as the middle and then uh alduin is the end like the world eater who will end the cycle so you sort of have these three elements because it depends on like how you look at things because there's evidence to support different theories and stuff but they're kind of all part of the same entity in the same way we covered this in the complete guide to gods but sort of how you know kinerath and kaine and kanathi and tava are all sort of different mythologies imposed on this one central idea of nature winder kind of stuff but but it kind of creates a multiple personality disorder like they're all kind of valid they're just different mythological lenses to look at that same god so have you have you heard of the concept that this this akka concept because obviously there's the different entities you could say it's made up as which are all quite different to one another right like you have auriel who is all super elven and whatnot then you have akatosh who is like you know one of the divines kind of like created by alicia or even spoke to alicia before being created it's like the concept of her of akatosh comes up first in her stories and then the final entity wants to like end the world for lack of better terms and then you could almost say auriel uh being an elvish god and being tricked according to elvish legend into kind of creating the uh to creating mundus is anti-mortality and anti-men right yeah at the beginning like yeah and then akatosh is pro-men and super benevolent to men i kind of see him as like almost like the middle point you know because it's kind of like it's very similar to you know satikal and the aura boris like in christian christian folklore they adopted the aura boris to be a dragon that's chewing its own tail or you know you've got nidhogg in norse mythology who chews at the roots of the world tree or whatever so you know auriel is like because of the the elves you know the elf seed men is kind of like the downfall into mortality and into permanent death so it's kind of the the evolution from the elven aspect of akatosh to the very human aspect of it and then you get that you know kind of birth and destruction cycle yeah that's that's it it's pretty cool there's also the concept that this whole overarching akka is insane which i really like i mean obviously anything eating itself you could say is quite enough well i mean you could you could go on like you know how they go oh the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again exactly that's the calpic cycles it's go over it again it ends up eating itself and then it begins in you and then it does the same thing over and over and and there's stories of akatosh as well having like you know two heads one man one dragon and like there's even and and drew you'll like this there's a quote from one of the panel books where he actually references akka and he says oh akka for our shared madness i do this i watch you watching me watching back so he actually says oh akka for our shared madness then there's the whole idea that pelinal's an akka avatar and it's cool because we just talked about the fact that when dragons eat other dragon souls they kind of absorb life essence and knowledge so it's like when the celtic cycle starts again there's kind of like imprints of of memories of the past as well that linger so it's kind of like how the dragons absorb the life essence of the pre you know the dragon they've just defeated which in the case of akatosh is itself yeah yeah because there's there's all of these entities that are sort of trans celtic entities where they sort of exist beyond the previous ones because you sort of still have the same daedric princes the same sort of aedric entities it seems as each incarnation of of mundus or not because there's like molag bell being like king of the dregs in a previous calper or you have reference to references to divine father of umaril um from a previous calper and all that kind of stuff that it kind of leads into the idea of the cycles that the dawn era is both the beginning of the new but it's also the craziness of the dawn area is actually the end of the previous as well so that's why you get those pattern elements that carry on over into the next one and if you go with the idea that the dragons are sort of infinite derivatives or divisions of um like akka or whatever you want to call it the time god um that they would sort of exist beyond as well and they would sort of perhaps have gone through many existences or maybe at least incarnations like differently like maybe in another calper they weren't dragons but they were those same time souls like if you if you envision them as the dragon's soul as a soul rather than the physical manifestation because obviously like we can see a dragon soul can be manifest in a human or it can be manifest in an elf or a dragon as we traditionally know them so in the name yeah but just a question who's whose neck veins was pelinal chomping on when he yelled out riemann i think it's um i wonder if there was any like i don't know knowledge absorption when he did that maybe another some big crazy another thing to throw at knowledge source throw out there is that alcohol who is like the khajiit version he was credited with apparently sending away pelinol when he helena was going massacring all the khajiit because he thought they were elves apparently it was al kosh that stopped him which kind of doesn't make as much sense if he's it could be look you don't know but yeah um but yeah i guess we can also like if other people want more information on how they're connected to time i mean an easy one to talk about is dragon breaks so so the concept of dragons are associated with time and the dragon the dragon they refer to is generally akatosh right and then if akatosh breaks that's time is broken so that's like what we had with the warp in the west or the middle dawn and essentially what it is is where time is going linear and then you have all of these different versions and time breaks and essentially you have say eight or infinite versions of timelines that happen and they're all happening simultaneously they're contradictory because they're in separate timelines but now time's broken um there is an out-of-floor idea that there's these essentially the the female counterparts of dragons called jills which essentially are responsible for basically making sense of the dragon break and repairing all of these separate timelines and sort of consolidating it as much as they can and then kind of stitching it back together into a linear timeline it's still not going to make sense because obviously like the warp in the west or the miracle of peace there's all of these simultaneous endings that happened at once but it's not as nuts as it could be so they kind of stitch it back together and then you have a continued continuing threat so they're basically just the writers at bethesda who had to try and figure out what to do with the dragon break maybe the head writer was a jill i don't know yeah yeah we're the jills but outside of that that's functionally what a dragon break is regardless of whether there's these female dragons called jills behind it doing this this is kirkbride's yeah yeah there's lots of there's also things you've got to be careful sometimes because sometimes that's not actually kirk bright stuff or he's mentioned it but then it gets carried away with other things and then the idea becomes popular um but obviously it's all still fun discussion and so on and for sure i also like this idea that akatosh is not necessarily the one who created dragons like in skyrim they'll say you know akatosh is their father but i feel like a lot of the time that might be because they're speaking to someone who knows just generally speaking the dragon god of time to be akatosh for example if they were speaking to a khajiit from elsewhere perhaps they would say al-kosh um and i think in their language they would just say boomer who i think is father yeah sounds kind of funny um but but basically because you see this question where akatosh is considered a kind of benevolent god of men you know as a divine and they say why would akatosh create these dragons who according to parthenox at least have this kind of desire that is so hard to resist to dominate others and i mean you look at what happened with the dragon cults and and i know that was also in some ways largely the fault of the dragon priests but you know the dragons still they're very domineering you know why would akatosh create that if he's a champion and i think the answer to that might be that akatosh in the sense that he is known today didn't create dragons especially if akatosh was kind of thought up of with alicia creating the divines and dragons have been around forever yeah and akatosh is kind of this present time it's why a kind of concept of the akka well that's why i kind of think it's more useful i think to think of akara as just sort of like a concept of time a time god and then if dragons are derivative of time but then akatosh is sort of imprinted on them this benevolent dragon so it's not so much that because if you if you think about if you know instead of trying to put a mortal morality for give put it imprinting that onto the god or at least the concept as a whole not the specific gods but then if you have if you think about it like that like if you think of akatosh if he is if you go with a madness idea that he's stuck in a loop maybe he kind of wants to just get out of it maybe the dog maybe the dragons being sort of derivative of are sort of like dominating to kind of like kind of a dominating time if that makes sense they want to control because they've got these things like i need to get a grip on time and that's sort of their how it sort of personifies in the world if that makes sense maybe another another idea i've heard is auriel uh created them ariel being you know the first kind of akka concept and that auriel hates men and then creates elves who just go and dominate exclusively men and for whatever reason leave the elfish races of tamriel alone i think one of the harder things with time and so on is there's been there's plenty instances of this that that like it's in elder scrolls universe is inherently kind of and they've fixed it in because for retcons and stuff but it it's inherently changing not just the future but but the past also changes like concepts so like you know like classic examples would be like potentially eben arm and psy and stuff like that them sort of being retconned or like or the warp in the west like talos was never a god until the warp in the west happened and now retroactively he's been a god since his ascension back at um back when he was emperor and first died and so on and ascended to the heavens or when the you know jungle became grasslands and so on but then that that past is now true but it's also true that it was once jungle in this other timeline if that makes sense you know what i mean but because there's this whole concept of of there's this linear time that they're trying to stitch up all the time that that those once passed that got you to that point won't necessarily be the true pasts now if that makes sense so like akatosh could equally have created them because that is that is the mythical past now i guess for viewers and so on we went from zero to 100 real quick dragons have claws and fly and have magic and then it's like but it might make you mad a bit some people but it's a very logical like elder scrolls inherently is a world about it's kind of like myth makes reality and like that's kind of in a power it it's it's very um fluid it's malleable it's not it you you got to stop thinking about it in this sort of idea of there is this strict linear time you have evolution of fish to monkeys the people kind of thing because it's it's different you know there's so many and you know throwing dragon breaks and things like the time wound and stuff you have all of these i mean put it this way alduin was supposed to destroy the world and he wasn't and he didn't do it in back in the marathi era and instead he decided to dominate man and create his old kingdom he gets sent forward in time which then creates the whole story of skyrim and all of those thousands of years of history happen in between then but then because of someone what i'm saying is there's a lot of time bending in the elder scrolls like yeah i mean and the idea that you know like the the dragons were specifically there to kind of mess with men it's like that that could potentially make sense for a while but then you've now got a storyline that goes back to the second era of the dragons active in elsewhere and then it's like oh wait at the khajiit uh derivative of the elves or are they their own beast race it's kind of like you know with every new story that comes out there's so many years of things that kind of get put in and put in a new light that you can't really yeah so we're basically we're all insane for even trying to comprehend it yeah absolutely but you know it's it's cool i think it's part of the appeal of the um elder scrolls um i just while we're kind of on the topic of alduin there was a question from and dash asking about the future for dragons after alduin's defeat if you guys have any thoughts about it because yeah alduin like i could just lead on that alduin you don't absorb his soul but you defeat him but but um yeah now there's dragons everywhere so what do you guys think it's funny i was going to say could you ask the actual question and then i found it and it literally just says future for dragons after outlawings yeah yeah well i feel like they're gonna be dealt with in skyrim for some time but it seems like despite everything that's been going on what what's happening in akavir seems to be like we don't care what's going on in tamriel like our own stuff's happening over here oh god damn it over here um and so i think that's going to go ahead as normal even with you know all of the stuff going on in skyrim and i still think that you know eventually they're going to come over they're they're kaviri eventually you know we won't go there they'll come here yeah yeah i think so because that's always a potential plot line if they've got i feel like they're going to have to up the ante after all to scroll six you know in 2050 when they come out with elder scrolls seven oh yeah but yeah so in terms of the skyrim dragons right yeah like what what's going on um look i don't think that dragons will be like a massive and this is just from a riding perspective a massive focus in the elder scrolls six as as much as bethesda loves dragons and they're putting him in everything i wouldn't be surprised if you find a dragon in some ruin in hammerfell or there's a dragon or two in the game but i feel like you might just have it explained away like the dragonborn does something or i don't know i just i don't think there's going to be permanently a heavy dragon presence in tamriel i also personally get the vibe from uh from the law perspective i don't think there's as many dragons in skyrim as there are in the game so for example like you know how there's the the named dragon at the start and there's a few other little named dragons and you can imagine like a bunch or maybe some of the word walls like one at each of the world walls kind of thing but you know how it becomes a generic enemy type that could just pop up all the time you might have killed 300 dragons in your big playthrough of i just get the feeling that you know obviously that that's a gameplay mechanic there's not that many around especially if dragons if you take dragons to be more powerful than then they're sort of presented to be like if they are these crazy powerful beings they can use the thumb to bend and big as well yeah if you have all that it's just there's way too many i think it would be safe to say just the named ones you know like aldwin's proper homies and their ones yeah yeah so and the rest is just sort of down to um actually that that is something that i wanted to ask you to see what your take is what do you think is the deal with some dragons being i guess seemingly more intelligent than others whereas others are just like this kind of base super like permanently hostile aggro dragons that just don't speak i'm sure it's just a game mechanic thing but well i almost some just seem to be much more advanced and and different to others even though they've all been immortal and it could be explained by the dragon souls thing yeah well i guess yeah i was just about to say like we could have potentially answered it with the discussion we were having in that the more powerful ones are the ones who happen to be the most intelligent and maybe these these ones who aren't don't seem too intelligent are just the scrubs who never win fights and never absorb other dragon souls yeah it could be yeah perhaps yeah um i guess some people also like low teddy's hungry um he said when did the nords learn to combat the dragons via dragon shouts and it goes on to talk about kind and so on but essentially he's kind of asking about that whole uh interaction and that basically yeah so there's either kind or kind through parthenox or whatever it would have been in the merethic era during the dragon wars which at the minimum they have to be before 1 000 to 800 years before the first era but like i've i did some math and stuff with the israel dynasty and stuff like that and with harold being the 13th in line and and roughly i think i put in some other video that is grammar would have arrived around 500-ish years before the start of the first era so at some point in between then and the start of the first era the dragon wars happen maybe like 50 to 100 years into isgramor's reign or his descendants or something and but it neatly happens in that period somewhere so you've got the whole rise of the dragon cult you've got the whole rise of the the dragon priests and stuff um presumably then is when i guess the shouts and some kind of powers are being taught to the dragon priests exclusively but then obviously when parthenox disagrees with aldo and he sort of goes his own way and actually teaches men maybe at the behest of kind or like that's how maybe you know something like that um and then he taught the men how to use the thumb to help fight back against the dragons and the tyranny of the dragon priests and stuff like that yeah i mean and that's the thing we don't actually know how involved kine really was because correct me if i'm wrong but is kind's involvement um referenced on the tablets for when you when you're going up to high hrothgar and there's the different like etched tablets that talk about the history and stuff one of them talks about uh sorry one of them talks about the dragons ruling over all of mundus which i think is a massive exaggeration and i think if another one were to say oh yeah kind taught them this it could also just be a bit of a nordic kind of take definitely on what happened and not what actually happened sorry girl oh no i was just gonna say i feel like it could even you could make a stronger claim that it's got something to do with akatosh more so than than kind of ref but they just you know obviously the norse love kind but akatosh as a concept wasn't necessarily like even a thing if you're looking at it in a linear sense wasn't as much of a thing at that point because yeah it's 100 years the the reason i had to say the kind sound like kind creating the human humans and so on and sort of being a figure that's mercy on on men and so on that kind could have been the person to sort of talk to parthenox and persuade him of this sort of like other way this peaceful high in the sky kind of way and that that she that he should help the humans and so on like i don't i don't look there's you know lots of things said in the elder scrolls i see no reason to discount the idea that and also the thing was too is that kine was um always beforehand was the one who taught them the thumb in the law then they insert the path and acts kind of thing comes skyrim i found the exact quote actually from the etched tablet yep so it says kine called on parthenox who pitied man together they taught men to use the voice then dragon war raged dragon against tongue men prevailed shouting out and out of the world proving for all that their voice 2 was strong although their sacrifices were many fold so kind called on parthanax who pitied man it almost in this description at least sounds like parthenox already pitted man kind kind of scoped parthenox out as you know good potential for being a helpful dragon yeah to what kind wanted for men and i just think there's no assisted there's no reason to disbelieve that there's no like no they just tend to exaggerate when you look at the other things they say about the same story well while we're on this topic one thing i absolutely love is in in old norse mythology there's the story of sigurd um slaying the dragon fafnir and after he kills him odin comes to him and says to drink fafnir's blood and when he does he's given the ability to understand the language of the birds which you know it's semi-related but it seems like a cool inspiration for the idea and kind being the hawk and stuff and like yeah and being associated with wind sky and you know that kind of thing it's kind of like a nice little connection between the dragons and stuff that's cool have you ever completely off topic but i remember there's a bit there's a movie called the the one ring or something which is that story it's like a like like or a little mini series made into a movie or so on where he like bathes in the dragon's blood but he becomes immortal but except there was a leaf on on part of his back and that becomes his one vulnerable spot he's like this immortal oh that's cool yeah i don't know if that i hope that's not just a movie thing but it's at least based on that that whole story and it goes you know but uh yeah but back to the elder scrolls that that story almost reminds me of the boethiah one with fearstruck and lyricius and the one scale that was tarnished on the dragon's back that it couldn't reach that lyricia said that he would polish and then stabbed the dragon instead yeah the um but yeah so i guess i guess everyone by now should have a pretty firm understanding of dragons themselves and their ideas of them being connected to time well let's talk about the dragon cult so obviously the origins of the dragon cult are kind of based on these traditions of animal worship supposedly brought over by the morons to tamriel and they had all the different animals and at the top was the dragon so as they were worshiping dragons uh eventually the dragons installed kind of leaders dragon priests to rule over the men simply because the dragons were not interested in the kind of base politics and the menial tasks they read yeah the governance they read the four hour work week by tim ferriss and they were like not outsourced so they got dragon priests and they gave the dragon priests some powers so that they could honestly assert power over the men and you know make sure that there was tribute to the dragons and and so on um but the dragon priests eventually became very very greedy which tends to happen when you give people too much power and demanded more and more and more of the people and according to that text as i said earlier in the video we're different to how they were on atmora and really ruled with an iron fist and made slaves out of everyone yeah i wonder what actually um started that whole thing where the maybe the dragon cult sort of started off both in atmora and then originally in skyrim as sort of a like a kind of a more respectful relationship not so much like they they give them their jew reverence but they're not um not the same sort of dominate i'm your ultimate ruler kind of thing and maybe maybe alduin hadn't sort of turned away from his purpose yet at that point and then when he turns towards the sort of yeah you know dominate that's it i'm not gonna end the timeline i'm gonna dominate all of mundus and try and you know do that mortal realm that's when at skyrim they start he started domineering and the god priests kind of like you know changed you what i mean and became a bit more well it makes sense when you consider the fact that humans in atmora had you know their kings and they seemed relatively prosperous it's not like they were you know constantly at existential risk of being destroyed by the dragons that definitely seems like something that kind of evolved more as you came over to skyrim well how how about how about the skull the skull have been living uh the same lifestyle for a very long time um and weren't weren't wouldn't they have been under rule by dragons well i i guess they were i actually can't remember exactly when the skull got in there because we do know that um obviously mirak and the uh three other priests were there um on the island but because the skull were involved with the dragon cult they are descended from the nords who served the dragon cult on solstheim yeah so that's all after this though yeah because you have the snow elves and stuff were there and there was the battle of the mo's ring snowwolf prince dies then obviously you'd have the dragon cult get established and then you but then you had the point where you had mirak and according to the it's kind of like not super super strict canon but those three other priests with their sort of lovecraftian masks were also swayed to um the side of of mirak um but then yeah and then they were locked up by valoc the jail in a big battle and apparently that's the battle that separated solstheim from the mainland of skyrim in this big you know classical cataclysm which means that valoc the jailer must have been immensely powerful yeah and then their descendants um yeah i guess would have been the skull and so on but the skull then that they're a later sort of deal i'm not sure how much directly they are actually completely representative of of atmore and religion because as much as they have the totem elements and stuff they do sort of have a real all-maker focus and it's a little bit different and you know let's not forget that the the totems aren't just like i'm worshipping like a fox they're all representative of an actual aedric entity like all of them have an associate like the al being journal kind hawk um you know shaw the fox like they all have um an equivalent so it's not um whether they were called those names right back then in the marathik area necessarily but i mean i i i don't know why not i guess like i don't think it was some like you know caveman kind of animal totem thing at the time of skyrim maybe it was even at moore away before then but i mean you know they i forget the name of the pl it's like jake of eco-frick or something some big like name of that mauro apparently it's this enormous shipyard and stuff like you got to remember they weren't um primitive they were making like entire fleets that they can send to amora so the atmorans themselves weren't these primitive types or anything oh absolutely i've i've also heard back to vallock i've heard that he is rumored to be the most powerful dragon priest of all of them um and in he doesn't have a mask associated with him and people assume that's because his mask was actually konarik okay like the super powerful mask which just means warlord like there's an idea that the mask was temporary and given to whoever the strongest dragon priest was and that's why he doesn't have a mask and would also explain his ability to uh get rid of mirak yeah yeah well and i guess i feel like um mirak would have gotten a lot stronger once he was adopted by himayas mora as well would you say although i think he wasn't he learning from maura before he got plucked to the realm still or he hadn't at all i think he was learning from i think he was learning bits but obviously he didn't have all the like the juicy stuff there is the whole apocrypha there's the whole theory too that he which i think we talked about in um in the mirror explained video that he actually became dragon got a dragonborn became dragonborn through um his interactions with himacus more because hermes mora having like all infinite knowledge would have potentially knowledge of of everything or how the like he could have knowledge of the same blessing that akatosh would bestow upon um alicia and her descendants and so on so maybe maybe it wasn't as much as i'm directly blessed by akatosh but instead in a pact with him as maura i'm going to get a actual dragon soul which obviously he would have idolized to at least some degree because of all of the other interactions um so he's like yes ultimate power now i can actually kill the other dragons i think mirak also talks a fair amount of [ __ ] when he's like i could have done i could have killed our lulu and i could have done this and it's like yeah and it's like mate the jailer was too much trouble for you yeah um but yeah there's plenty of colorful characters um in the dragon priests and like i i guess people were sort of asking they kind of changed the law a little bit but like we in regards to the draga but the draga as they are in the current incarnation of the law are basically the eternal servants of the of the dragon priests and that's kind of how their like soul energy or whatever life force is what's just they constantly sustain the dragon priests who are who are who are essentially liches just not in the exact same way as other liches but um yeah and then they're all committed to alderwin's return because remember alduin got sent forward in the future and i'm sure they'd be aware of this like they used the elder scroll to send him forward so they probably are all preparing for his great return in the events of skyrim but i'll i'll go through some extra questions um reelect steele said um can dragons use all types of magic and and yes um we think so too and like even donovan was capable of summoning bone man and raithman um but i feel like i i feel like that if i was a dragon though the incentive to learn the type of magic that models are using is quite low i mean you look at some of the master illusion spells and compare it to potentially what you could do with bend will or things like that i mean you can just shout rip someone's soul out have them fight for you you can even use whirlwind sprint like imagine dragon just going whoosh yeah like hyper speed across the sky like there's so many things they can do with the thumb and with their with their language which is magical enough and i'm sure there's dragon shouts that you don't even know of in skyrim that like fill in the gaps of other cool things you could think of yeah i mean i think we've had this conversation before but we're sort of talking about how if in the in terms of game mechanics they they make uh dragon shout competitions and fights basically seem like oh it's like a verbal debate and so on but if you actually think about it like that's you know obviously they're just breathing fire and frost and maybe the occasional like little soul blast thing or something because um it's a game mechanic and you want to have like you know elemental damage and things to actually like understand and fight whereas there's nothing stopping those debates between like kind of being a little bit more literal if you imagine these sort of dragons and they're like debating each other in kind of like you know speaking all these different you know dragon language words you don't understand but they're sort of like combating mythologies and stuff which is sort of formulating the fabric of the universe because remember the thumb is like a inherently like um universe bending magic it's not sourced your magikarp and so on so it's changing the rules so imagine if there's these two dragons they're kind of like seeing whose philosophy is greater and you know what i mean they're like trying to out wheel each other yeah as opposed to the idea of them flying around and one of them goes fire and fire comes out and another one goes frost and frost comes out and then some mortal sitting in skyrim goes uh-huh it's just like a verbal debate like yeah so it's i don't know so it's this doesn't hold up to me so it's like a bit um it's like a myth makes reality kind of thing they by the whole idea that you know how they were saying that power makes right if they're the strongest with their voice then they can make this certain in the universe versus the other persons and then assert their power so it's kind of like rather than just the physical manifestation like you just said it could be a bit more of a uh philosophical thing you know what other questions um there was lupus alpha was saying why didn't dragons have as much of a presence in tamriel outside of skyrim and elsewhere and we can kind of drop but we've kind of talked about that a little bit but it also it would be useful to expand on i guess the dragon wars and stuff but i in my personal opinion i think that the whole dragon wars fiasco was very short-lived in skyrim i feel like with i feel like when isgramor came over the dragon cult might have been sort of becoming a bit of a thing back in atmora kind of gets established isgramor sets up his his uh his old schtick in skyrim kills all the snow elves stuff like that then maybe his son or something becomes king and the dragon cult's really getting popularity then it sort of comes out into in catches on in in skyrim in skyrim it really starts proliferating and it's really good for a little bit but then maybe alduin has a change of heart wants to dominate the priests come in and that lasts but maybe that tyranny only lasts for like 50 years or even less and then it all gets you know fixed when parthenox teaches them like what i'm saying is all the whole dragon wars dragon cult conflict could easily be within a tiny tiny hundred years i mean you'd almost hope so because otherwise it just kind of you start questioning why isn't the influence here why isn't the influence there why have we never heard about it obviously because they just wrote it for skyrim after writing all this other law but it does make sense because the other thing that's like if you do uh there's two things if you propose that it was there for a long long time like longer than inside of a hundred years i'd even say less potentially um it's like well then why didn't they conquer all of tamriel the dragons are crazy powerful the dragon priests are crazy powerful how couldn't they just spread further and get a lot further it's like well maybe they actually didn't have as much time as you think and also another thing to consider is that it seems we only knew of like one dragon priest of each area sort of like there was only one dragon priest ruler of this ruin or or city or whatever back then or this city so because maybe there was only like one generation of of dragon priests and if you look at azerdale as a doll was um he was like one of the first in contact with elves or something wasn't it and he learned enchanting from the elves and he came back and and like it kind of almost sometimes i from what memory someone look it up but i'm pretty sure it's kind of the vibes that he left and learnt enchanting from the elves and then sort of came back and then the dragon cult's almost a thing there and it doesn't seem like there's this big domineering dragon cult in history i'll actually i'll actually give you a hot take that i just thought of yeah maybe the reason the dragons didn't spread all over tamriel is because it's a lot easier to dominate a group of men who already believe and worship animals with dragons at the top do you know what i mean like it's it's you they already they're ready to worship dragons yeah you go down to some elvish place they're not really ready to worship dragons and maybe they've got powerful daedra or aedra helping them do things um you know what i mean like yeah it seems like a much it's not that they couldn't it's not that they couldn't but you wouldn't necessarily have the same genuine servitude like you would have a lot more philosophical and mental resistance to hey where dragons worship us yeah as opposed to a race of people who already worship animals i still feel like they just have just so much power that they could just they could but it would be it would be a different dynamic i guess is what i'm saying yeah it would be a very like just we control you because of force and no other reason than that my ultimate conclusion would be that i just think it was short-lived the whole dragon cold dragon wars thing i think that's a pretty tight explanation explains why there aren't hundreds of dragon priests and instead there's only like a generation maybe two of dragon quests um and then there aren't because there's not heaps and heaps of masks and so on and what do you think drew yeah i mean like you wonder did did they just have no interest in like a huge expansion because i feel like they really could have done it i mean like you know for example when you actually look at the few dragons who were active outside of skyrim you know one of them um being nafala lagus who was involved in um the like stras makai the civil war that was going on there there was like a a naval battle with the the force of the red guards i can't remember if it's the crowns or the forebears now um i get those two mixed up a lot the crowns crowns rats yeah against the imperial fleet and nafala lagus just comes along and absolutely messes them messes up the uh the crowns and it's like they really they really could have done a lot more so the idea that there was a time restraint makes a lot of sense that or they just didn't particularly feel the need to spread across the entirety of tamriel interestingly too they they do have limited spread into high rock as well that like so it's like it's almost like the intention was there there's i think it's azan a little bit stormhaven right uh stormhaven being the location i just remember if i look at uh stormhaven give me one moment i believe there was a dragon thing there while you're getting that up just like looking at things like the dragon tail mountains as well you could just say it but it makes sense that they'd kind of like you know be active in these regions yeah absolutely absolutely i can't actually find it but i just feel like i remember some kind of dungeon involving a ancient dragon thing there is this whole zahn the scale caller who served the dragon the vulcan um left the followers left central skyrim for a remote mountain called scale caller peak and i'm pretty sure it was towards um high rock direction but it wasn't in skyrim but basically what i'm saying that's why i feel like it was a short-lived thing and then because they were sort of on the path for expansion they were spreading but it was just too short-lived to get anything solid done and you know you've got a dragon who lived in daggerfall you got skarkmatt who was um involved in the battle at queen gane field dropping the um the mist over the battlefield but you know so that's that's pretty far-reaching but once again it's only one dragon it's very far ahead in time i found i found the page i was looking for so scale caller peak you were talking about yeah is a group dungeon located in stormhaven yeah part of the dragon bones dungeon pack dlc along with fanglair so there you go yeah also actually to throw out there here's an interesting uh thing for timescale is um azadahl is born in southall in a late marathic era and basically he went and sought out elven teachers but then when he came back he found his home burnt to the ground by elves so he was actually like before the return so when isgarol came back he alive he was alive at that time and so on so maybe it only happened like even in inscrimo's lifespan maybe alduin got really cocky and sort of i'm going to dominate everything or someone after israel's death or something and that was kind of that instituted the change um because you know he was already he had full izgram already had fully grown adult sons by the time of the return um so it's not like he was a young guy um so yeah maybe it pretty much happened straight after that and then that was short-lived and then uh gets back to normal and i mean rather than them getting kicked out by the cliff races you know it's like yeah like perhaps they they just didn't have time or you know the the resources to expand enough before they you know were dealing with stuff on the home front i don't think they necessarily would have been in morrowind because at this same time um the kaima and dwemer should be in morrowind as well and i feel like they should say something about they're being dragons yeah exactly i was going to say that like why is there no reference to dragons from any of those races in their ancient texts yeah i mean surely the dwemer would want to learn about their magics and things like that especially regarding uh universe changing things and you know their love of tonal architecture and yeah and maybe that's how they learned to if they were it would have been like falofy mountains you know it was like as the furthest yeah one uh extra time reference another thing was for you know i was saying about trying to place when is grammar's return was in the merethic era it's um kodlak white maine says that the companions are nearly 5 000 years old which would place it at um sometime in the last five centuries in the marothic era so that's that's that was another time supporting thing so yeah but um i'll keep going just check we've got some more questions and there's there is also speaking of isgramor um from year sammy did isgram bring the dragons with him when he returned but late but later on when the dragon colt was overthrown the story was changed to reclaim their national hero it might explain why the falmouth were pushovers for a few companions um there are some people that go on ideas about the dragons coming with him and helping him or being even members of the companion i was going to say there's there's even theories that say is a dragon yeah like there's some there's some really really really out there stuff in terms of isgramor dragons and the competitors i don't know he's a shape-shifter maybe yeah i feel like it's he wields ruth right in his mouth and flies around and slashes this is uh yeah i i feel like this is you know a bit of a million it'd be hard to hide that in the history he could have come over with dragons honestly i find it kind of from a narrative perspective i think it undermines isgramor that like everything's a dragon everything and anything ever great accomplished had to be because a dragon was there and it's like for sure and i think it also comes from this this idea that you see a lot that elves are somehow so strong and so superior and that how could men possibly bring an army and slaughter a bunch of elves it's like they're they're not living gods they may have some advantages but they can absolutely be slaughtered by a angry pack of nords who've been training to kill things their whole life absolutely um olivia was saying i definitely want to hear speculation about dragons in morrowind or lack thereof and and also mentioned the run out by cliff races thing but yeah like we kind of said like i kind of mentioned like they could maybe be annoyed by pests and leave but they i don't think they're there because of um because the kymer and dwemer don't mention anything about them being there that you know i don't know they've got skyrim right next door with a bunch of worshippers and so on that are happy to you know do anything for him well not happy to it depends the priests were but yeah um here's an interesting take um from bradley gray i presume it's canon that parthenax was slain correct if so with alduin and parthenox dead what's the future of the wing beasts in tamriel do you believe they'll play a role in the empire and elder mary dominion conflicts well i don't think it is canon yeah that parthenox was slain to be honest i don't know why it i mean it could be but i just i don't know what's what do you think that assumption could be based off maybe just cause it is a quest that appears during the main storyline but i don't i just feel like they won't give you a kind of decision i feel like it's just they're not going to address it at all um path and killing path and acts is a pretty it's a unanimously hated decision like there's very few people that are like yeah parthenox deserves to die it's a bit of a he's such a you know what i mean like a liked character i think they'll leave it um like open-ended so there's always the chance they can call on him again if they ever want him in the narrative yeah yeah for sure i mean why burn your bridges if you don't have to and plus the whole fan base loves him so we did address to what's the future the winged beasts a bit like we thought like yeah yeah they're just gonna there'll be a few floating around i think they'll probably go into hiding and stuff i don't think they're gonna be fundamental story elements anymore um do you think they'll play a role with the empire and elder mary dominion conflicts i i don't i don't think so they always i can see a little thing like one or two dragons being involved in a storyline because you know what i'm i'm being honest i actually do think we will see at least one dragon in elder scrolls six i really do whether it's just deep in some ruin or in one quest i think they're gonna have a dragon i just don't think it will dominate the game like it did with skyrim but i would be very surprised for there to be zero dragons in elder scrolls especially after them shoehorning it into elder scrolls online dlc it's it's in other i'm pretty sure it's even in blades like it'll have a lot more impact too if you only do meet one like the classic sort of like dragon in his cave with his horde of gold kind of thing if you kind of came across a dragon like that um it'd be interesting but um i don't know if we want to discuss this anymore about the concept of their desire to dominate and sort of like what they mean i also think i don't like that from a writing perspective i think dragons are interested enough without this innate ability to dominate because i don't get what the uh the end goal of that is and even in regards to if you're if you're if you're connecting it back to akarakatosh of it then all the derivatives and whatnot like what purpose does it sort of serve to dominate unless actually here if it's um if you consider that akatosh and oriel and all that are sort of very anewic and very anti-lorcan and so on if they see the nords and all of the humans and stuff as these sort of paramedic pro-lorcan or shaw as they call him um sort of elements that that dominating them is sort of like suppressing them and like you know what i mean perhaps yeah that's that's kind of what i was saying with the idea before that perhaps auriel created the dragons or the the part of akka representing the beginning yeah that dragons have supposedly always been around from and you created them you could also kind of say that it's more of a description of aldwin rather than all the dragons you know because alduin is innately going to be very greedy you know he wants to consume the world um and you can imagine that a lot of dragons are just following their leader rather than all inherently wanting to dominate and destroy everything well there is the thing that parthenex says um that's the thing he says it and it says it's an innate thing and then he says like because there's a little philosophical thing where it's like oh what is it better to um what's better to be born good or to overcome your evil nature and be good basically um paraphrase that but yeah i'm pretty sure mewtwo says that as well oh there we go skyrim just jacked it from the pokemon movie dude yeah yeah no true true yeah yeah so i i don't know i don't think that the that the writing is that great in terms of just dominate everything i definitely would rather the dragons like more examples of parthenox type dragons who are like you know different i i feel like the seeking power angle can be done without the domination angle because you have the ones go to maybe it's sorry maybe it's semantics maybe it just means they crave power and they dominate each other and they have their debates and fight over who's right and wrong and potentially if you go into those deeper theories like you said before they're kind of bending reality and whose versions of things are you know the the right one essentially yeah and having these conflicts and stuff it could be that it doesn't necessarily mean they like for example okay man what about animals or creatures do they want to dominate trolls do they want to dominate imps yeah like where where does it start and end you know what i mean yeah maybe only things that they think could contest them potentially yeah so it could just be a basic power thing not necessarily a dominate for the sake of pure dominance just like molag bao type thing i want to throw out that an extra note um about uh the thumb in general and how you know the dragons they use the debate and it's that are likened to a debate and that you know they're using stronger arguments or whoever whoever wins the debate slash battle is right and correct um it's actually how jurgen windcaller um the guy who founded the greybeards he basically fought all of these other tongues who challenged his new found philosophy of where you should only use it in reverence the thorn in reverence of the gods um and he does this he asserts his philosophical dominance by beating them all in battle and swallowing all their shouts and stuff so in the same way that the dragons kind of battle like the actual physical battle is kind of like might makes right it's like you know whoever's philosophy is strongest it's the same thing to them so you know jurgen wind caller was the strongest philosophically and that's why he could win because not because i think at least i believe that they would interpret in a very literal way in that if you are stronger your philosophy was correct kind of thing like that is the greater myth or position or whatever like versus not just oh well you just you just beat me with a hammer but i'm still right like they kind of i think the other dragon or the other tongue or whatever would concede to the greater philosophy because they were beaten if that makes sense yeah for sure for sure is there anything else to say i guess the last piece of information in my head would probably just be about their language um and how they there's this idea that they write it obviously with their claws and they have this like vestigial digit that they use to like push in the little dot things but then as as you said to me off off camera how they can the grey beards will breathe the words for you to learn kind of onto the floor yeah and then there's the idea that dragons could just write by going put just spitting it on the wall basically yeah as opposed to using their claws especially into stone it's not to say that their claws couldn't do that but yeah absolutely but uh yeah i i think that's uh i think that's it some people also asked about uh perya taking form of the dragon um and some people i i don't know i don't think there's anything to it really i think he's just i i agree with the premise that it's just a primordial just type thing or he just likes dragons or i just don't think it's a actual akatosh related it's not it's not indicative of periart's power or anything it's not like like and you know i i don't think no it's just a form that he's chosen to take i think yeah but who knows who knows well yeah i think uh that said drew any closing notes you have anything dragons are cool man i like dragons all right well thank you very much everyone for watching social media links are in the description below let us know what you think and tell us what you want to see on the podcast next we're always keen to hear some new and interesting topics my name is michael this has been fudge muppet with scott and drew and i look forward to noting out with you all again very soon

Channel: FudgeMuppet

Views: 111,011

Keywords: skyrim, skyrim lore, dragons, dragons lore, dragon cult, dragon cult lore, elder scrolls, elder scrolls lore, elder scrolls podcast, miraak, alduin, aka, akatosh, auriel

Id: rzVcEJ44T1s

Length: 76min 42sec (4602 seconds)

Published: Sun Aug 30 2020