We're not equipped to deal with what's happening in the world. So, the way we get through it is through connection. Hi, I'm David Choe and you're listening to The Rich Roll podcast. (upbeat music) Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is a guy who has fascinated me for years. His name is David Choe. He's a street artist. He's a fine artist and muralist. He's also a writer, a podcaster, a television host and a recovering sex and gambling addict. And although highly flawed like all of us are, just a refreshingly honest, open, vulnerable, sensitive, caring, and really beautiful human. The inspiration for reaching out to David in this moment is his latest creation. It's called "Choe Show" on FX. It's this limited series that I'm absolutely obsessed with. It's unlike anything you've previously seen on television, just this explosion of creativity and honesty and vulnerability all wrapped in a sort of talk show format, as unique as the man himself. If you're already familiar with David, perhaps you caught them on Howard Stern or Joe Rogan or Dave Chang's podcast, all absolutely wild conversations worth checking out. By the way, David is nothing, if not very entertaining. But today's conversation I think is qualitatively different in so many ways, a version of David as perhaps you have never before seen him and really very focused on things like mental health, childhood trauma, addiction, sobriety, and more broadly, this journey he's been on towards self-acceptance and self-love. I adore this conversation. It's quite unlike any I have had previously on mic. And mostly, I hope you find it helpful, especially if you're one of those people who is suffering right now. And I think that's just about all I wanna say about what's to come. So, please click that subscribe button and enjoy what I think is a very meaningful and beautifully, heart-centered conversation with the singular David Choe. It's really nice to meet you, man. Nice to meet you too. I've been looking forward to this for a while. And as somebody who's kind of followed your trajectory for a while, I'm just delighted that you would agree to come here. I have to say, I was really surprised when you DMed me. 'Cause I was saying stuff about the show and you on the podcast. And when you reached out, I was like thrilled. So, I'm excited to talk to you. And typically with these things, like I do a ton of research and I come like loaded to bear with all these questions and thinking about like how to approach this with you. Like honestly like, I was like I can go down some crazy rabbit hole and learn everything I can possibly learn about what you've shared publicly, but I really just wanna be present with you. Like I wanna do a little bit of what it was like, what happened and what it's like now. And I guess I'm really interested in like this growth trajectory that you've been on. I think it's really fascinating. It's impressive. I think there's so much wisdom to be mined that could be helpful to other people. 'Cause it's been fucking a journey, man, that you've been on. Yeah. Well, I guess I should start with full disclosure. I don't have social media. So, the person who DMed you was my assistant. (Rich laughs) Yeah, all right. Fair enough, man. I appreciate the honesty. Like I am aware that I have a social media presence, but it's not me like that. Yeah. Is that for self-preservation. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It has added... I can't sit here and say it's added nothing to my life 'cause I use it as a promotional tool and get my message out. But negative feedback and especially positive feedback, doesn't help me. So, I have a child blocked phone, so I don't have access to those things. So, if I wanna write something or reach out to someone, I send it to my assistant and he reaches out. And I appreciate, in my days where I did do podcasts, I would do the same. I would do as much homework and be as prepared as possible. And I just, I don't know if you can tell, but like I'm very intimidated to be here because... You shouldn't be, dude. You shouldn't be. I am. And I'll tell you why. But I will say you seem really like chill and grounded, like not... I meditated (indistinct) Or the maniacal, like high energy, like high wire act dude, that like we're kind of accustomed to. I meditated in the iHub parking lot before I came here and for about 30 minutes. And when I do these things, I don't do them very often anymore. I never know how deep I'm gonna go. So, my brain marks where all the fast food places are. So, I know getting off the freeway. I know I saw the Burger King, the McDonald's, the Jack in The Box. I hop and I go, I don't know what's gonna happen with Rich today, but depending on what happens, my brain has already planned how I'm gonna get high at the end of this, which is the fries at McDonald's, two tacos from Jack in The Box. And part of what... I'm not an athlete, and as I get older, I try to stay in shape and doing a very poor job of it. And when I meet someone who's like a marathon runner, and in your case, like, I don't even know what you call the things you do, like ultra mega, I quit. Anytime I have a trainer and they push me too hard and I start to feel a burn or I feel something, I go, "I don't feel good right now. "Like my body doesn't like this. "I feel like I'm gonna puke right now." And then I just stop. So, when I find someone or meet someone who's capable of running hundreds of miles and all these things, there's two things, one side of his inspirational. Wow. The human body. And then the other side is, wow, if this guy is capable of this. I mean, he's capable of like, he's probably a psychopath. There's so much of that. Like I get uncomfortable hearing that because so much of it is projection. And I get this a lot when I go out in the world and perhaps you can relate to your version of it, which is, "Oh, did you just run 20 miles? "Or you could have run here from your home." And like, in my mind, I think if they only knew like the reality of it or how I think of myself, because the truth is right now, I'm not doing that. Like I'm doing podcasts and I'm traveling and I'm raising teenagers, and I got a lot of obligations and now I got this studio and I have people that work for me. So there's this past that I have that somewhat current of being an athlete. And that's true. I don't dismiss that. I honor that. And I'm grateful when people recognize that, but at the same time, that's not the reality of how I'm living right now. And so, it lands kind of undeserved and the fact that it would make you uncomfortable is preposterous. And so, I would say to you in the same way like, "Oh my God, "this like incredible artist is coming here. "And he's like so full of life and creativity "and he's such an incredible storyteller and I'm nervous. "Like what am I gonna say to this guy?" Like how am I gonna help make this interesting for other people? So, a lot of that is just being human. And I think it's also one thing that we share is just a history with addiction. I've been in recovery for a long time and I like struggle with just emotional sobriety every single day. And like trying to put a lid on my character defects and the negative kind of loops that play out in my head of unworthiness and undeservedness, and all of that kind of stuff that is maddening. I guess when I hear you say that, my version of that would be, I remember I went to an art school in Oakland. They changed the name but it used to be called California College of Arts and Crafts. And I was so nervous the first day. And I was like, this is where all the people that can really draw and my background was illustration and comics. So, I'd tweak out and just draw and draw. So I'm like, I was known as the kid that can draw in my class. So I'm like, this is where that kid from every school is coming here. So, it's the test of the best. And I remember I had this illustration teacher, Vince Perez, and it was the first day of class and we got our first assignment. So, I didn't sleep for that whole week. And when I joined... When I presented my assignment, two kids, and I remember the names, I won't say, quit the class. 'Cause they were like, if there's people doing stuff like this, I'll never live up to this. And they quit. And that gave me, at that time, so much joy. I was like, and then later in life, the way all my addictions manifested with the one main addiction where you can hide in plain sight and no one will say anything. In fact, they'll pat you on the back and say good job is workaholism. So, about seven years ago when I started to stand up, I was having art shows, selling paintings for millions of dollars, professional gambling. I had my own podcast. I started doing the news for Vice and we won an Emmy that year that I joined. I was sleeping with multiple women in a day. I had the highest score on Angry Birds at the time. So, it was just like I had to... And I remember joining my first, like self-help group thing. And most of the guys were older than me and there's Titans of industry. And it was just I walked in with a less than attitude. And when I heard like, oh, I started this company, I did this. I have to show you like, oh, you're a workaholic, like I don't sleep. I don't do drugs. I don't do this. And look at all these things like, whatever you did, I did a thousand times more. So, you're less than me. I'm more than you. And today I don't. Like that was such a reactive way to live life. It's like, you do this, then I do this. And it's like a game, it's like a war. It's all competition. I mean, I've heard you talk about how you from an early age, like approach your art from a competitive place. Like I don't do sports. This is my sport. How can I outwork everybody? And behind all of that, of course, is this like compulsion or drive to be seen, to be recognized that derives out of the sense of abandonment from when you were younger and all the kind of like trauma that you experienced. And it is something that our society smiles upon, and with like comes to the creation of the ego, right? Which is the beast. As society is approving of you and you become more and more successful and your self-will gets attached to that, like I did this, I'm the one behind this. It becomes like, something that becomes really unmanageable. And it's not until it's too late, that you even are like in a place where you can reckon with it. Yeah. I tell myself all these stories. There's a story like I tell myself in my head of like who I am, and then there's stories I tell on podcasts or write in books. And then like that's a narrative that I've been telling myself for a long time. And is it true? Or is that just, is that my editor? You've told it so many times and you know it's gonna get a reaction. And your memory is really of the telling of the story and not of what actually happened. And my memory is horrible. (David and Rich laugh) My memory is very inaccurate and it's horrible. And I just remember being in so much pain, like it's both, right? I tend to be very binary. Life's awesome or life's the worst, but it was both. I remember having a very happy childhood at the same time being like just a lot of anxiety and pain all the time. And I got tired of people telling me I was such a good artist, like sometime in high school like when I was 13, 14, 15 around that age, and I was growing up in Los Angeles, I was introduced to graffiti. But I didn't know this at the time, but graffiti has a lot of rules. There's a lot of structure. There's like this neighborhood you can't paint in. And these kinds of letters and I'm like, I don't wanna be a Vandal so I could follow more rules. Right. yeah, it's ironic. You know the band Sound Garden? Mmh. So in the trifecta of grunge right there, it's usually Nirvana, Pearl Jam, and then Southern Gardens third. And so, I used to listen to more, it's probably say Nirvana, but then there's this song, Slaves and Bulldozers, which is like a really long, it's like seven or nine-minute song. And it's, Chris Cornell's sings in like every single octave in that song. He's like the lowest view. And I would just... I remember being at my house and playing it as loud as possible. I had my headphones and I had it on a, I think I had it on cassette or CD and I would just listen to it over and over. And I would start getting myself hyped up for going out to do graffiti. And I wasn't part of a gang or crew or anything. It was just me and some spray paint that I stole. And I would listen to that song. And there's a lyric in the song where he goes, "Now I know why you've been shaking." And I didn't know, I was 15, I didn't know what that meant, but I loved that line and I would sing it back with him. And then I would start punching myself in the face soft at first and then like... Like I said, my background is drawing like drawings and like in a sketchbook. It's like this. It's my world. I draw in my sketch sketchbook and then I close it. The idea of going outside and painting something big that could be judged, that people would see me, it gave me a lot of anxiety. So, this is the way I would get myself hyped up. And then I would start like, what if another gang sees me drawing over their stuff? Or what if the police chase me? Or what if, like there's all these what ifs. So I would be like, there's nothing you can do to me that I can't do to myself. I'll hurt myself first. I'll get myself... So, I'd get myself hyped up. I already like get some adrenaline going just from like hitting myself and then I would go out. And then I get out there, I had no idea on how to paint using a spray can, like it's one thing to use a brush and a pencil. And so, I'd get out there and I'd freeze. I'd be like, I don't know what to do. (David laughs) And then I just started writing my name, David Choe. (David laughs) And it wasn't a tag. It wasn't like my alter ego and I would just start writing it. And I would draw like right next to it, I'd draw like a cute whale. And it was almost like prompting the police, like come get me. But I also knew... Like I got some unconscious level, like a cry for help in that early age. Exactly. Yeah. And that cry just gets louder and louder and louder as your life gets bigger. It got very loud. Yeah. It got very loud. And I was thinking about that recently with watching these people in Afghanistan like run onto the tarmac and jump on the airplanes while they're taking off and like falling to their death. And one of my character defects I've developed over my entire life is I have to be first in line. I know how to cut. I know how to lie, steal, manipulate. I know how to do anything that I need to do so that I don't have to wait in line. Like if we're at Magic Mountain, Disneyland, at the airport, I know what to say, I know every trick in the book. And like when I'm with my friends, when I'm with my wife, they say, "Why you got to do that, man? "Like do you gotta get somewhere? "Or are you in a hurry?" And I grew up with the stories of my family escaping from Korea, right? Like you're waiting in line to get on the boat, to get away from the Japanese. And so, I wasn't there, that never happened to me. That's a story from my grandparents, from my aunts, my uncles telling me these like horrendous stories. And so, I grow up with this imagined thing that may or may not happen one day, right? It's like one day, there's gonna be a tank that turns the corner and you better be the first on that boat. And when you get there to that line, you better claw, kick, scream. You better do anything. So... 'Cause your life depends on it. It's almost like there's an epigenetic thing, like that's imprinted on your DNA and it gets passed down. So, even though you didn't suffer that trauma, it's like part of who you are, something gets triggered in you whenever you're in a line. But I think even on top of that, there's that like varnish or like veneer of the addict and the addicts entitlement, like don't you know who I think I am? Like I deserve to be at the front of the line. Is that part of that piece also? I feel so good right now talking to you, like listening to you talk 'cause it's like, something you said at the beginning of, like if I'm going on Howard Stern or like, I always feel like I have to over explain stuff or maybe talk over like, I'm in the world of recovery, which is not sexy. And I don't, for the most part, like talking about it, because I don't ever wanna explain to someone what a gambling addict is. Oh, that's a real addiction? So, I kind of overcompensate and go into like storytelling or like a cartoon character projection of what I think I am to people. And like, I feel good right now like talking to you and you're like... Well, it's that thing that you learn, like people that are really funny who are addicts, it becomes a defense mechanism or a coping mechanism. They can hide behind the joke. You know that you're an unbelievable storyteller. So, you can always pull out that card when you need to and get the approval. Or if you're Steve-O, you can do some crazy stunt and get the attention that you need. But it's really ultimately a deflection because you're protecting that like inner child that is wounded or afraid of speaking their truth. Yeah. And since you bring up Steve-O, I had dinner with him about two weeks ago, and he was on my show. And I know him casually. I've met with him like... He's a friend of mine. Yeah. So, I don't know him too well, so having dinner without a camera and it was nice to get to know him. And I don't think he would mind me saying this, but even though he's not a dad, he's got a lot of dad. He's like a dad, like, sorry I'm like burping. He's very concerned about like climate change and like the stimulus package. And he's just like concerned and I'm sitting there going, oh, like he's making all these good points. And I'm like, "Wait, what do you care?" Like you jump in a shark tank, like any day, like every single stunt you know you could die. And you're caring about like what the future of the world, And he said, "Hey, I don't think I was ever an adrenaline junkie." He's like the way his addictions manifested itself. And he would tell you, he's an attention-holic, right? He's like, all of it is so, and I go, "Would you ever do a stunt or something "and not broadcast it for TV? "Or like would you do it just just for yourself, "just to be like, I would." And I had actually had this conversation with Rainn Wilson also. He's like, everything I've ever done that's performative, it is a performance, it's for someone else. It's almost like, if it's not filmed, then it's like it never happened. And that's something that I really struggled with because my final art show was in Beverly Hills, on Rodale in 2009. And I was so checked out at that time, and it was my gallerist, Steve, he's same guy that represented Banksy. And he's just like, he's from London. He was like, "Where do you wanna do your next show, Dave?" And I was like, "It has to be in LA. "It has to be on the most expensive, "the most like right in Rodale Drive "and lights, camera, action. "I want every celebrity there." And it was just all like I had to show everyone, like I was enough and I was, I wasn't even enough. I was better than you. How did that workout? (David and Rich laugh) I just sat there. And they're telling me how much... You just sold out your show and the whole thing. And by that point, my name was starting to be in conversations with like Damien Hirst and Merck Cami, and all these. And I got to meet some of these people. And I was like, they're nice guys, whatever, but I'm like, "I don't ever wanna be these people." I don't wanna like... Usually when you get to that stage and you have a factory, and then you have other people painting your stuff and then you can sell stuff, it's never enough. It's just more and more and more. And I sat there and I just kind of said to myself, I don't wanna sell my art anymore. Like I don't... And it goes against everything of how I was raised and like survival and getting to the front of the line. I just said, it's enough. I've literally made enough money in my life. I don't ever have to work again, which is, every time I've said that out loud, it's abstract. It's abstract to say, I'll go one step further. I never have to move again. Like I never have to move again. Like I can hire someone to just push me around like the total addict side of me that wants to like have zero responsibilities and accountability. I can literally buy a humongous house and have just someone wheel me around and just all the food and video games. And all my human desires and needs can just come right to my door and I don't have to do anything again. And if I start thinking about that, it messes me up 'cause that's not the life I want. Right. But you have an experiential adventure with all of that to arrive at that place. Like you had to dip your toe in every conceivable indulgence. But that's the thing is, as a human, as a man, like I knew I had people in my life that knew better. And they were like, they told me, they're like, "The writing's on the wall, "like this doesn't end well for you." And yet I had to be like, but let me see for myself. And the ego goes, well, it didn't work out for you. And even though you're smarter, more powerful, more better looking, more everything than me, like that's how it worked out for you. For me, it will be different. And to have more and more and more people tell me, I still had to see for myself. And I'm not that way today. If someone's like, "Hey, that's not a good idea." I go, "Okay. Over it." So, I pulled the plug on the commerce side of my art business 'cause I went back to... there's so much when you tell someone, or when I tell myself I wanna be an artist, right? It's not like I just sit down and I start painting. What is this for? Is this for a gallery? Is this for children's storybook? How much am I gonna sell it for? Like there's so much stuff that comes with it. And when I paint with kids, I do a lot of murals with like at-risk youth and stuff. There's none of that, right? As adults, we need a lot of explanation and we need a lot of handholding. We need a lot of what is this for? And there's so many questions. And then like with kids, when I say I teach them, I just put the tools. You giving them permission. Yeah, I just put the tools out and then they just start. I don't even... Expression in its purest form. So, stepping outside of the commerce piece provides that opportunity for you to reframe your relationship with your art, where it can be just about pure creative expression. And you being motivated only by this sense of having something you wanna say and saying it for no other reason. Right. Which is, it's hard. Which is the best. If you remove all those other motivations, isn't that gonna produce the best art anyway, or the purest art? But you said the word permission, which is, I think is huge because there was an art barn at the first rehab I ever went to. And for me, they're like, this is your lifestyle. I was actually banned from the art barn. You're the only guy who can't do that. They're like, this is your escape. So you're not alone. Like you gotta go do something else. But I remember peeking my head in there and it was a really expensive rehab. So, everyone in there is like a multimillionaire or a billionaire. There was a guy in there you could argue is one of the most powerful people on the planet. And he was asking permission if he could use like the glitter. They were all using normal paint, but then there was like a glitter section and he's like, "Can I use the glitter?" And I was like, "Motherfucker, you can buy this place. "You can buy this place. You can build your own." Like, and I go, that guy had to ask permission and then I just go back, 'cause for kids, like young kids, they just do life, right? They just live life. And I think about how many things in my life, is this okay? Yeah. Like there's so much, oh, I'm sorry. Am I allowed to... And for me, it's 'cause, I was talking to Pako, the filmmaker who did the "Choe Show" with me. He literally flew in from the Philippines yesterday, he's crushed out at my house right now. And I talked to him at dinner last night about pugs, and those like little cardboard, things that you, I never played it but I guess you played it. And then you win someone else's pugs. So, his father, he worked at Pepsi in the Philippines and Pako was playing with Coca-Cola pugs. And it was a skill that he had to win other kids pugs. And at the end of the day, he had a stack, and he was so proud of this thing that he had done. And his dad comes home and he sees the Coca-Cola logo. And then he said like, like a movie had just started raining in Manila and it started turning into a typhoon and his dad took all his pugs and he's like, "Hey, dad, what are you doing? Like those are mine." And he threw him into the typhoon. And this is something that happened at his, I don't know how old he was, seven, eight? And so, and my version of that is in Korea town, my dad's friend, this is in the 80s, early 80s when Korea town was much smaller, his friend had opened a seafood restaurant. And like the way things worked with Korean immigrants is without getting too into it, it's like they would like loan each other money to start businesses. It was like support. Like you start your business then we come support you. And so, I remember dad in the car there going like, "Let me order." 'Cause we didn't eat out that often. 'Cause we didn't have that much money. And I know he was gonna get like the friends and family discount, but he was like, "Let me order because seafood can be expensive." And I remember going okay, cool. And we went there and I think it was my first time like at a real restaurant and I must have been six or seven, not like McDonald's or something. And I remember his friend, he was charming and he came with his thing and he's like, "And you little man, what do you want?" And there was a lobster tank and he's like the lobsters fresh today. Like I never had an adult asking me what I want. So, I'm like, "That, I'll have that." And I could just feel my dad glaring down at me, just like, and so then he took everyone's order. And then as soon as he left, my dad's like, "Do you know how much your fresh lobster costs?" And then my brothers jumped in, they're like, "Stupid David, "like dad said he's gonna order." Now we... So, I'm like, "You want me to get him? "Like should we change the..." He's like, "No. Then we're gonna sound like we're poor." And so, the shame. I'm telling you a story about a lobster meal, So, then the lobster comes, I can't even enjoy it, right? "Does it taste good?" I'm like, "Guys, I don't want it now. "Like you guys are been yelling at me." He's like, "No, we're gonna sit here "until you finish eating that." And so I'm like crying, eating this lobster tail. Cut to 20 years later, like I'm gambling millions of dollars in Las Vegas. Having lobsters sent up to the room, I have prostitutes in the room and I don't even eat the lobsters. I just check into every penthouse suite in Vegas. First thing I do when I went to check in is two lobsters. And they're like, "Oh, you gonna need it now? "Or do you want us to..." I'm like, "Just send them up to the room." So, there's rotting lobsters in every penthouse in Vegas. And I don't even eat it. It's just like a fuck you to my dad. And I didn't even put that together until I was in therapy. And part of the problem is what did I just tell you about, pugs and lobster. And I get into treatment and there's people there that have been seeing their family murdered in front of them. So then I make it a competition. This guy just told me his family was murdered, like in front of him in Cambodia. And now he's here and I'm gonna bring up a story about ordering too much lobster at dinner? So, I don't speak up for myself. So, I suppress it. I push it down. I go, dude, big deal. I say big deal but then it manifests in like these, it comes out sideways in all these strange ways. And do I have permission? Yeah. That what it comes down to. Do I have permission to forgive myself? Do I have permission to forgive my dad? Do I have permission to eat lobster now without all this guilt and shame? Do I have... And the answer in most cases of the people that I've been talking to is no. So, it comes out in workaholism. It comes out in like basically saying, I am not allowed to ask for permission for what my needs are, because I'll be rejected, I'll get yelled at. And so, it's like living with this ghost of... And if you met my dad today, he's like the sweetest guy. So, in the same way I go, he was an immigrant and he had three kids and he didn't have any money. So, I make the excuse for him, instead of just being like... But the trauma is what it is. And it doesn't matter. The motivations behind your parents, all our parents on some level, were doing the best that they could with a deck that they were dealt. It's that GABA Montay thing of emotional trauma, childhood trauma, like laying the foundation for these errant behaviors and the addictions that follow. We can always trace it back to something that in most cases, for a lot of people, it's like their parents... I'm sure your dad doesn't even remember that. Oh, yeah. It's like it was a meaningless thing in the moment. And yet it gets locked in, in your psyche and becomes this latent like pernicious seed that germinates over time and manifests in all kinds of craziness later on. We all have some version of that and that guilt and shame that we feel because our pain isn't as grandiose as somebody else's, our pain is our pain, man. There's no measuring stick to repair that. Yeah. The way it was explained to me is everyone's pain is maximum to them. So, when I'm being shamed for ordering incorrectly, I'm not thinking, oh, there's a kid down the street getting beat up by his dad. I'm just thinking in that moment, this is happening to me. And it gets locked in forever. Yeah. We'll be back in a sec, but first, if you dig this podcast, and I hope you dig this podcast, then I think you'll really enjoy my latest book, Voicing Change, featuring excerpts from Poignant Essays By and glorious photography of some 50 of my favorite guests over the last eight plus years of doing this thing, this podcast. It's a gorgeous artful compendium of the show and copious wisdom shared there in all wrapped in a hardcover coffee table form that provides a great taste of what we do here at the RRP and serves as a beautiful keepsake or gift for the ardent fan. The book is only and exclusively available on our website, signed copies are available and we are shipping globally direct to any coffee table on planet earth. So, to learn more and snag your copy today, visit richroll.com/vc. That's richroll.com/vc. All right. Let's get back into it. I'm wondering, I don't know too much of your story is that, once again, I don't wanna... The joke with running or anyone who's a runner is like, "Hey, so what are you running from?" Sure. Of course. Yeah. I mean, it's all about your relationship to it. Like in many ways, I can look at my career as an athlete and make a checklist of all the ways in which it's improved my life. But I think I would be dishonest if I didn't say that there's some addictive compulsion that attracted me to pushing myself in that way. It's like this place that you can go where you'll be celebrated for going further, longer, harder than anyone else, and nobody's gonna bat an eye. So, there is like an addict piece with that, that I'm sure there's ramifications for my involvement in that. Overall, I think it was a good thing. And I'd put enough work into myself at that point where I could like keep it from getting too out of control. But if you go to any ultra marathon, like probably 70% of the people there are in recovery and covered in tattoos. It's like those little lights that attract the bugs. It's one of those kinds of things. So, who was it for you? Was it mostly mom or dad, or? I think it was a little bit of both. I mean, it was a household of high expectations being set that I could never quite meet. And my relationship with my parents is good now, like especially with my dad, we've gone through a lot. So, it's not about blaming them or them being bad people. Oh, no, I don't think it's about that. It's just, if I try to have this conversation with my parents, they'll instantly go to that. They'll be like, "Oh, like, why are you trying to make me look?" I go, "It's not about that," 'cause I love my parents. And I think they're great people. It's just, I got really, really defensive when I was in treatment because my dad kicked the shit out of me one time, one time. So, in my mind, I deleted that memory and I said, "Dude, there's people out there that have like the most," like my dad sings me songs to sleep. He takes me on trips. He's great. One day he had a bad day. I don't know what happened at work. But one day, he did that. And so of course, the treatment team focuses on that. I'm like, "Why are you guys trying to turn me "against my dad? "Like why are you tryna get me to..." And they're like, "Well, that did something, "that one day did something to you, "and it's not about blaming them, "or it's just addressing it, "cause this is this wound that's open, "let's just address it and then we can move on from it. "We don't have to just sit there "and blame this thing forever." And you said this thing right now, if you're open to, I heard you describing all the sides of the emotions that come with ultra marathon running, and it's bringing something up in me when I was doing podcasting. So, what part of this podcast is not healthy for your recovery? I mean, there's a workaholism piece to it. It's a lot more work as somebody who's done it. And I don't think people realize. There's a competitive piece to it. Like I want it to be as good as it can be. I want these experiences to be as helpful to other people as I can possibly craft them. And it's that tension between self-will, like I know if I put a lot into it, it can be better. And also what I've learned from recovery, which is I have to allow what it wants to be, like I have to surrender to it, and it's actually better the looser that I hold it. And I'm always waging this war with myself over that, but there's certainly a workaholism piece. Can I do more? Who else can I get? Why is that person getting that person and why can't I do that? Or why? Like I buy into a lot of that. Like that's a lot of my character defects. And I can hide behind that. And while the podcast is successful, I get applauded for it in the way that, in a minimal way in comparison to kind of like what happened with you and just being celebrated. I mean, I remember way back when you were doing that podcast, DVD Essay. I mean, it was insane, dude. I would tap into it occasionally and just be like, "This guy is so fucking out of his mind." I was like, I can't, I'd hear you on Rogan and I would check out the podcast. And I was like, this guy is on a crash course with disaster. I don't know what the timeline is here. But... I remember doing Howard Stern. And then after the interview, him taking me to off to the side and he's like, "You're wild, man. Like this doesn't... "Like you better tuck it back a little like..." And to have my hero, Howard Stern say I'm out of control was like the greatest compliment you could ever give me. And I remember that time and everything you just said resonated with me. That's why I'm curious is, you could call it my delusion or my aspirations, at that time I was, I'm gonna be bigger than Howard. I'm gonna be bigger than Joe Rogan. And my workaholism was at its all time high. I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna trick Sasha Baron Kona "to being my show because he wants to buy an art." Like he was looking at paintings, but then I said, "Go in that door over there." And like we were recording live. Like a reverse punk. Yeah. Like guests I couldn't get, I would try to use my art. Like every day I was sitting there and my mistake was, I don't know if it's mistake, everything I guess happened the way it needed to. But when I paint, I can do anything I want, it's not literal, right? Like I can paint an abstract painting, a fantasy painting, some Saifai, anything. You don't have to take it literally. I just paint. And I have that freedom as an artist to just paint whatever. And I brought all that energy into my podcast. I was like, "I wanna use words like pigments, like paint." I'll tell a story, but I'll exaggerate this part. I'll edit out this part. And this great thing that I heard from this other guest, I'll make it, like it was my story. And every day it was a, how can I... And a bit of like, just reactive like, Asians are supposed to be like me. Your podcast shouldn't be about math or something like that. And so, there was a lot of, I need to show that Asians can also be crazy and not just crazy, but the craziest. And so, just sitting there and going, "How inappropriate can I make this podcast? "How insane can I make it?" And then once in a while, teaching some of the positive things that I learned in life. And getting hundreds, and then at some point, thousands of people saying, "I look forward to your podcast." I'm sure you did get this. You're inspirational. You did it. You turned your life around, you got all these things. And getting almost like this kind of Messiah guru complex of like, "I'm helping people. "This podcast is helping people at the cost of myself," some martyr shit. But it's okay. I can take it. I can take this. Lot of people can't take it. I'll hurt myself so that other people can be at entertained, so other people can learn from my mistakes and I'll sacrifice myself at this alter. And in the same way that I walked away from painting, I just said, "I'm gonna die doing this here." Like I'm literally gonna die doing this. So, I stopped podcasting. And so... It was pretty abrupt too, like you just stopped uploading. Yeah. I just sat in a room one day and the podcasts were so... The ones that I had played for my friends in the same way, like I like it when it hurts. Like I imagine like as someone who's not a ultra marathon runner, when the pain starts, it's like, okay, like something gets activated. Now we're on the same page. Now it's on. Like people were starting to have really threatening hate mail towards me. People were writing articles, people trying to cancel me. And now it was like, "Oh, you thought that was bad?" So, then I went and I still have hundreds, if not thousands of podcasts, I lost track. And I would play them for my closest friends and they're like, "You can never upload this. "You literally can never, no one can ever hear this." And I go, "I'm not doing anything. "I'm literally talking, using words." And they're like, "You're saying stuff that is like so bizarre and so offensive and so..." And I go, "But like isn't that what art is supposed to make you uncomfortable and push?" And they're like, "Dave, we fucking love you, man. "Like don't do that." There's a difference between being a provocateur and performing like a public self-immolation, like it was like this, on one level, like your whole life becomes a performance art. Like everything that you're doing is a form of media that is an expression of your interior life. But unmistakable in that was this sense of you, I mean, a cry for help is like the wrong term. Like it was more severe than that. Like you were... I wanted to die. It was clear to anybody who had any kind of like therapeutic background than like you were in a lot of pain and you didn't know how to quite express that. And you were very far away from being in a place where you could actually raise your hand and ask for help. And so, what you were doing was exploding your life in real time. And I carried all the cliche. This is my problem with like, I didn't watch the latest Anthony Bordain documentary, even though I know I'm in it, because I do wanna celebrate all the positive, wonderful things he did in his life. But I also know in our society, the story, the cliche story is you kill yourself. You're gonna be on murals. You're gonna be Memorial. You're gonna become a Demi-God, people are gonna worship you. And I don't like that. And at that time I didn't have... I had very close friends that were like, "There's this thing called therapy. "There's things called medication. "There's things you can do. "Like you don't have to suffer like this." But my handbook, which I was playing from was, you have to be amped up to be an artist, you've to the best for legacy, for transcendent. If you wanna be known, you have to be the most messed up. No great art. I mean, maybe great art, but that kind of transcendent art that really touches people for generations, you have to sell your soul to the devil, like you have to... Pain is the vehicle for greatness. And I've totally bought in, I was like, there's no one I know that's like well adjusted and has like a wonderful life, that is doing anything that's like, and that's the just this... And today I know there is, it's just I didn't believe it at the time. So, I believe that. And anything like to go to therapy or to start taking pills or to start talking about my pain would get in the way the art, and the art is the most important. And at that time I considered my podcast art, my pain, everything I did, I was like, that's my art. And it needs to be pure and it can't be edited. It can never be edited. If I mess up in a painting, you have to see my mess up. If I say something that should be edited, like everything has to be pure. I have to show you, 'cause everything in this society is lies and manipulation and the best version of things. And I wanna show you the ugliness, and I was too cowardly to actually kill myself, but I wanted to get into some kind of situation where someone would murder me or something would happen where I would die. I had a angina attack in a casino when I was 35. So, I have that heart disease. And that was the best because when I collapsed, I felt so much joy. I felt so much joy in the same way in those Sound Garden days when I was doing graffiti. And like I had nothing, I was just a punk kid writing my name, David Choe on a wall. And all these people were like, "Dude, you painted in the gang territory. "They're gonna come after you. "The police are calling your house "'cause you wrote your name." That was the happiest 'cause I was like, "It's gonna end soon. My pain is gonna end soon." Like relief from this self-created prison where self-care is that odds with what you're trying to express, which is greatness through your art, right? It is an impossibility to be a great artist and to be well, right? And the pain of walking around being like, I'm not entitled to actually take care of myself because that will threaten the very thing that I care about the most. And I think one of the most kind of interesting and impressive things about this growth trajectory that been on is this chapter of that is perhaps the most courageous, like can you be a great artist as a happy, well adjusted, grateful, grounded human being? Is that not like the ultimate challenge for an artist who's convinced that the expression is only a function of how much pain you're in? Well, let me ask you this, have in your adult working life, have you ever taken a year off? No. I mean, not to get into your finances. Have you made enough where you could take a year off? No. Six months? Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. So I got a bunch of kids. Let's go with six months. So, when that was recommended to me, it was the same thing as me asking Steve-O to do a stunt and not film it or Rain to do a performance and not have anyone see it, it was like you're taking away my identity, my identity is working. Everything is for work. For approval, relevance. What happens if I stop doing the podcast or disappear and I don't mean anything anymore and who am I actually? And so, someone even called me out on the thing you just said there. They were like, for someone who's rebelled against everything, their whole life, you're pretty close minded and you're pretty like cowardly about this, creating art from a positive place 'cause you have all these examples to support your argument of how look at this guy, look at how messed up Picasso is and look at how... And so, you have so many examples to support the messed up artists thing, but why can't you be the first, right? If you can't think of any examples of someone who's well adjusted, has a loving life and also an amazing artist, why don't you be the first? Why don't you try it? And isn't that not the most punk rock thing ever? But it doesn't feel like it because there's so little examples of that. So first thing was, you need to take a year off. And I was at a place with a lot of people and I was like, how come you're not asking that guy? He's like, "Cause he's not rich." He's like, "If everyone here can afford it, "I would tell everyone here to do it." So this guy says, "You are so close to death and you may or may not know it, "but because you can financially afford it, "I'm asking you to take one year off "because your brain is on fire." Like you can't sit like, oh, TV show, movies, work on this, and then I'm gonna do this. And then I'm gonna put this like, and you have so many people calling you like a genius. Oh, this guy did this and he combined this and you're getting all this praise, people are offering you TV shows and that was the most offensive thing you could say to me is to take a year off. I told the guy, "Go fuck yourself." He's like, and then he started crying. And I hadn't experienced that kind of level of vulnerability before, like with a man, like I was ready to mix it up. He tells me this, I go back and we're gonna argue. And he goes, "Hey, just from meeting you "and how I feel of how you're coming off right now, "and because you can financially afford it, "I'm gonna ask you to take a year off." And I said, "Go fuck yourself." And then he started crying and I... Who is this guy, therapist? His name is Patrick Carnes. And he is the known as like the the godfather of sex addiction. And just for my background, I have no chemical addictions in every process. Yeah, so interesting. It's like the inverse of me, like all about substances and that's never been your thing. But the gambling thing came in a lot earlier in your life than I realized. Well, when people say OCD, right? They think the lot of hand washing, or when I walk I have to step on a certain. And I was like that as a young child. Like when I walked to school, I had to step on the line of the sidewalk squares. Like I couldn't stand on the square part. And then if I missed one, I had to go back and do it again, like I had that. And then I was like, "Oh, I haven't had weird hang ups like that in years." And my therapist pointed out, "You have the most severe case of OCD of it." And I'm like, "What are you talking about? I don't know." They go... So for me, and all the stuff that I've learned is it helps, right? It helps for you to go, I'm an alcoholic, right? But that helps with that 'cause you need to stop that behavior at that moment. But as you know things, if you don't get to the core and cut it out, then it's whack-a-mole, right? It jumps. So, then you become a drug addict and you stop that. Then you become a sex and love addict. Then you stop that. Then you become a workaholic. And a lot of these things can cross over. And so for me, I was a thief. From the time I can remember, my brother showed me how to shoplift when I was six or seven. I remember Star Wars Figures were 99 cents at the time. And I remember another instance of how I'm not enough. Our allowance was 50 cents. So, I worked two weeks so I could buy this Star Wars Figure from the drug store. And then I go, "I have a dollar." So, I put the thing on, and the text comes out 107 or something, and I put the money out. And she's like, "You don't have enough." I go, "That thing's 99 cents." And she's like, "There's a thing called tax." I'm a little kid going, "Wait. So, I can't have that?" And she's like, "No, you can't have it." And I'm like, "Oh, shit. I just worked two weeks for that." And they're like, "Yeah, you need like 10 more cents." And I was like, holy shit. And then we walked out of the store and my brother's like, "I got it." And I'm like, "You get 50 cents too, "where did you get the extra 10 cents?" He's like, "Oh, I pulled it out of the thing." So, I was like, "You don't have to pay for things?" And he's like, "No, you just steal. "And you just take whatever you want." I was like, whoa. It was such a... And then of course, I grew up in a super religious family where there's these sayings framed all over my house, do not steal. And I was like, of course, I got to steal now. (David laughs) So, I stole every single day of my life from age eight till I was like, probably in my early 20s. Every day? Every single day. And I didn't need to steal, right? Like some of the stuff, oh, so you're a kleptomaniac? And in my mind I would steal a lot of food and give it to homeless people. No one wants to think of themselves as a bad guy, right? So, I would steal like some art supplies that I needed and I'm like, "Oh, I'm a thief. That's horrible." So, I have to correct that. I'm gonna go out and steal from a corporation and give to the poor. So, I knew where all the homeless people in my neighborhood lived and I would go steal food. And it took years. Like, that's, once again, this is a story, I'm a hero. I steal from rich people, and I give to poor people. I'm a good guy. And people would be like, "You're a thief, you're a thief. "You steal. That's not good." And I'd be like... How does that relate to OCD though? 'Cause I have to steal every day. Oh, I see. That every single day (indistinct). Like every single day I have to steal. And then that also... What would happen if he went a day without stealing? So, it was a combination of steal and break the law. So my go-to was, if I was laying in bed and I was like, it was like anything from like stealing a kid's homework to copy off of, or like, any kind of like deviant behavior. This is crazy, I would have to climb out of my window, I had to break out of my own house, hop the fence and go across the street in jaywalk and then go back inside my house just to be like, I broke a jaywalk. It had to be some kind of thing like that. And then I got caught a bunch of times. I went to jail a bunch of times and then I just decided one day, "Hey, like my mind is so strong. "I'm just gonna stop cold Turkey." And which I did, I've never stolen again since the day I decided I'm not gonna steal again. But then the gambling went up. And at that time... Yeah. It's squeezing the water balloon. Yeah. And my friend, Joey, who he was the first one of my friends who had a driver's permit, he got his driver's permit. He drove to Vegas by himself and he came back and he said, "There's a place in the desert "and they play games of chance. "And when you win, they let you keep the money." And I was like, "Let's go." That'd be like 15? I was 15. And we had a fake ID from Alvaro Street in Downtown. And so, we're going to Vegas with like 20 bucks, $15 and like winning 40 bucks or six, and we were hooked. And it wasn't until years later that I realized both my mom and my dad are gambling addicts. I don't know if my dad's necessarily a gambling addict, but my mom definitely is. My dad, when we were growing up, we didn't have a lot of money. So, he would go to Vegas every weekend and try to win rent money or whatever. And because I know my dad, he's a very conservative, like chill guy. He's not the guy that's like all in. Like he's... (indistinct) gambler. So I already know that kind of gambling. And then like, it's like, you gotta kind of be bold too. Right. But you were actually pretty successful. Oh, I was very successful. I'd hacked the way to do that. And so, as to my dad, I made a lot more money gambling than I did in art in the beginning. So... 'Cause I thought the gambling stuff happened, kind of kicked in after the whole Facebook thing, but it really was before. What was it full force before all of that? Well, to put it into context, and I know this story has been written about a lot, but some of the homeless artists gets lucky when he, and just to frame that era, everyone was on MySpace, right? Like everyone was, like Facebook was like this, it wasn't a joke but it was like this niche, social media for college students. So, and Sean Parker had... The Napster guy. Yeah. Sean Parker, like I had met him right after the Napster thing when they were trying to get sued for a trillion dollars. And he just was a fan of my art. And at that point, my art was starting, it wasn't selling for hundreds of thousands or millions, but it was like, I was a painting that had used to sell for 300. I was starting to sell for like two or 3000. So, my star was starting to rise. And he wanted to get some artwork. But because he's this kid that was, (David laughs) facing like, I don't know who was trying to sue him, like all the record labels, Metallica, whoever. And he's a very confident, determined. He's like, "I will get your art someday, Dave Choe." And I was like, "Cool, come up with some scratching." So, then he started another company, Plaxo. I don't know how it did. And then finally when it came to Facebook, he explained this thing to me during the era of MySpace. And I'm like, "This sounds horrible. "The name sounds horrible. The logo's horrible." I'm like, "Can I redo the logo?" Like, he's just like, "This thing's gonna take over the world." And I'm like, how was it college social network? And so, I had just gotten out of prison in Japan and I owed everyone money. He like punched a guy at your show or something? I punched on the... That's a whole other story I can get into, but I needed a lot of money fast. And so, it was a blessing that he was like, "Hey, Dave Choe, "I told you one day I'm gonna get a paint from you. "We got funding from Peter at PayPal like," and I said, "Okay." So, he's like, "So what are you charging now?" And I'm like, "What do you want me to paint?" And he's like, "I want you to paint a mural on every single floor." And I was like, I had never gotten a job like that, but I'm like, "Okay, "one painting of mine selling for like five grand now." That's like multiple. So, I said 60 grand. And if he said yes, 'cause I had no one had ever paid me 60 grand before. it's a lot of money. (David laughs) It's a lot of money now, right? And he's like, "Okay." Like he didn't even, he was like, "All right, cool. We can get you that." And I was like, holy shit. I'm gonna be able to pay everyone back? And because I'm a gambler, he goes, "Or you could take stock." And were people like, "Oh, he's so lucky." But it's 'cause I was at the generate. The appropriate... And at the time, that was a crazy bet, especially when you owed money. Yeah. The right thing to do would've been to take the money, pay back my girlfriend at the time, all my friends who paid for my lawyer in Japan, pay me all my back rent. Like that's the right thing to do. And so they're like, I remember my friends going Facebook? Like, dude, go back, get your money. But that's because I was a degenerate gambler. I would take my toys paycheck and go to Vegas and lose it all. And I was like, there's gotta be a way to win at this. There's gotta be a way because everyone who gambles has the same story. I was winning, right? So, there's that part where they were winning and then I lost it all. And I go, whoa, how can we change this story where it was like, I was winning, period. And I was like, "Oh, it's a vice, it's like an addiction." It's like when I hear an alcoholic say, "Two beers and I was good. "I was the life of the party. I was buzzing. "I was having a good time." And I said, "Why don't you stop there?" Well, 'cause I'm an addict and then you have another one, then you're wasted. So, all of these things is just like, how can I win at life? How can I win at life? How can I feel good through all these things that are to make you feel good and then stop? And I go, "Oh, I have no self control. "I have no self-control." I can't stop myself, but someone else can. But that's not realistic. If I was an alcoholic, is that realistic for me to go to a bar and pay someone to drink with me and all my third beer when I, but like literally, like slap the beer out of my hand? Like is that really gonna happen? And I go, "Whoa, just 'cause it hasn't happened "doesn't mean it can't happen." So, I paid my friend, Harry Kim to come with me to Vegas for seven years. And every time I was winning, he would physically take the money, put it in his pocket, go upstairs and lock it up and made sure... And I was like, "But we were on a winning streak. "Like we could win more." And he's like, "We're done." And sometimes he would have to physically drag me away from the table and the pit bosses and all the people that worked at the casino were like, "We've never seen anything like this before. "We've never seen someone pay someone to stop someone." And I go, whoa. Is that like technically cheating? Do they end up cutting you off because you have a system? They cut me off at two casinos. And then ultimately when my first GA meeting, gamblers anonymous meeting I ever went to, and I got sober from gambling in Hawaii, which I chose Hawaii for my rehab because that's the only state in America where there's no casinos. So, there was no GA meetings there. And they said, "You should go to AA meetings." And I go, "Well, I'm not an alcoholic." And they go, "Well, you go to the AA meeting. "And whenever they say a drink or alcohol, "just replace it with casino, gambling." But you can't share at those meetings, 'cause you can only share for that particular thing. And as someone who likes to talk a lot, that was really humbling to go to three, 400 plus AA meetings that never share once and just hear everyone else's story. And everyone just go on, "Who's that guy? Never shares. "I've got some darkness." (David and Rich laugh) Exactly. The flip side of the gambling addict thing is, yeah, you set up this control, but part of the compulsion is that attachment to also losing, like the anticipation. I'll sum it up for you. So, I've been to every type of 12-step meeting, and the ones like, because I'll be in a city where, oh, I can't find a gambler's, overeaters or sex and love addict or whatever the addiction co-dependence I have. I don't want a Bonham Carter and fight club or... Exactly. And they're like, "Oh, there's only an AA meeting "or narcotics anonymous or marijuana anonymous." So, I'll go to that meeting even though that's not my addiction. And as I listened to thousands of people share their story, I go, "Oh, it's all gambling." Every addiction is gambling addiction. Every single, when you drink and you get in a car, you're like, "I kinda don't care if I make it home or not." That's gambling. When you're like having sex and you're like, "I'm not gonna wear a condom." And you're like, "Oh, I might have a kid. "I might get AIDs. I might..." That's gambling. And so, to go to my first gamblers anonymous meeting, after going to 400 AA meetings in Los Angeles, I was shocked because AA meetings, AA meetings are kind of like parties in LA, right? Like it's very social, they're bright lights. Yeah, especially in LA. 300 people. There's celebrities speak. When you go to a sex addict meeting, a gamblers addict meeting, the process ones, there's more shame. So, the lights are a little lower, It's really fucking dark. Yeah, it's darker. There's a lot of shares that end with suicide attempts. So, I went to a GA meeting and we went in a circle and every single share, it was a small meeting. It was like six people, every single person shared about how they try to kill themselves. And I've said this before, it's the reason why they don't have balconies in Vegas, because if they did, there'd be someone jumping off every day. One out of four gambling addicts kills themselves. So, people don't get gambling. I don't understand. So, I'm sitting at the meeting and everyone's like telling how much money they've stolen from their family or lied and manipulated people so that they could keep gambling and getting that once a lotto scratcher, horse rate, everything, right? And I'm scared to share 'cause it's going around the circle and it gets to me and I'm like, "I just won $3 million at my last." And I feel exactly the same as you. You just said you broke into a cars to steal a quarter so you can get the next scratcher. I'm sitting here telling you I have two rotting lobsters in my hotel room. I'm having sex with all these prostitutes and gambling with millions of dollars, winning, handing like a hundred dollar bills to everyone I know and I feel exactly the same as you. So I sat there and I go, "How did I feel when I won $3 million at the mall, "my last trip, right?" And I'm playing a quarter million dollar hands of blackjack in private private rooms. And at that point, I felt very little. But like you win $3 million, it feels good, but not that good 'cause I was already rich. When I lose $3 million, and even better yet when I lose 30 million, then that feels amazing, right? That feels amazing. So, I think that was the disconnect with trying to talk to people in my tribe who are addicts and people who aren't addicts, right? And it doesn't matter if you're an addict or if you're not an addict, because everyone knows an addict or at least has one in their family. So, that's the thing when people go, "But I don't understand. Why don't you stop drinking or why don't you stop? Why don't you stop the behavior?" It's like, "I wanna fucking lose. That's why. You get it? "Do you understand now? I don't wanna win. "I'm happier when I'm losing. I wanna lose everything." But that's even harder for somebody to understand because you're not operating on a rational plane. You're trying to numb the discomfort of your internal pain while also seeking to feel something that will make you feel alive. And if winning's not gonna do it, losing certainly is going to. It doesn't matter what that feeling is, as long as it's a feeling different from however you feel. Right. And so, sorry, I got fired up there for a second. (David and laugh) So, that's hard to explain. That's hard to understand. Like, wait, you're trying to wrap your non-addict brain around someone who's doing everything they can to run away from everything. Feel numb, feel nothing, feel everything. And so, everything was off. I did like these expensive brain scans to show that I had like frontal, like kind of temporary brain damage from just like complete overstimulation. Yeah. Your dopamine must have been completely fucked up. And so, doctor's orders, take a year off. And I had to sit in that, and it's like, whoa. When was that? This was seven years ago. So, is this like the bottom? I had never hit a bottom, which, when I asked you about the podcast and you're like, it's good and there's the negative. So, one of the things that I've taught myself into being a successful gambler was, it's the golden rule. Get out while you're ahead, right? It's like, how do you win at life? Get out, it's like, I look at a guy like Conor McGregor, like just loved and just do it. If he had just stopped like three, four fights ago, he would just be a legend forever. And now he's starting to turn into the villain and like, fuck, if he just got out while he's ahead. And I think of a lot of people like that, but you get addicted to the tension or, whatever the thing is. And if you don't die at 27, you become like glorified. Right. And that's what I was playing for. I was trying to die. I was like, once I hit 30, I was like shit, it was supposed to happen before that. Now I'm 45. So the positives, if I'm looking at the bright side of gambling, it had taught me, I had taught myself through discipline and hard work how to get out while I was ahead. So... That's a very non-addicts thing. Oh, right. And I was like, man, I've been to jail, multiple times. I've lost small fortunes. I've always had this like kind of, no matter how much I tried to hurt myself, there was, this is what it was. Oh, shit. I might start crying talking about it, but I've always, my entire life have valued friends over everything, right? So, I've learned a lot. Now I have a lot of tools. I've learned a lot of things in recovery, but I have like the same friends that I've met when I was in third grade, since I was eight years old. And I would do anything for my friends. And I know that they feel the same. So, I knew like girlfriends would come and go. I knew things but I was like, what is the one thing that I must... 'Cause you hear stories. You're like, "Oh yeah, we used to be friends in college "and life happens and then we grow." And I was like, no, like things come and go. The one thing that has to like stay constant in my life is friendship. So, I nurtured those things. I made sure no matter what happened in my life, I would take trips. I would call. And when we say love, we usually tend to refer to romantic relationships. But for me, I was like, love. Love is for me, like man love, me loving another man, calling a guy to tell him how much I love him. And so, if I didn't have that, I would be dead right now. I can tell you three stories right now where if I didn't have a guy in my life that was like, "We're not doing this, Dave." Like I would be dead right now. So, that's the one. And even in all the recovery places, people were like, "Holy fuck, dude, "you're getting a letter every day from someone? "Like you have more friends than anyone." And I said, without that, and I know that's not in the 12 steps or certain things, but like the one of the most important things for my life and my recovery is, these friendships are invaluable. So... I think that kept you alive. It's like have you read a Johann Hari's book Lost Connection? He's kind of all about that. So, while you're out there like freewheeling and getting like crazier than anyone can imagine, you have all these friends who are trying to get your attention, and as any good addict will tell you like, you just can't hear it, like until you're ready. So, even though you say you didn't have a bottom, you did reach a point where you were receptive to some level of self-care or listening to where friends were trying to tell you. Barely receptive. But enough to save your life, right? I had my therapist likes to say hope is not a plan. And I have, people don't tend to think of me as a guy who's like very calculated or has plans. But I had planned my bottom. I knew how much money I had in my bank account. I knew my brain, like in the same way I pull off this exit here, my brain instantly knows which fast food places I'm going to eat after this interview. I know. So in my mind, whether I wrote it out or not, like it had a plan of like, and then you'll lose this, then you'll go on this bender, and then this, and then you may die from this thing. But if you live, then you do this, this and this. And so in my brain, I always knew that there's treatment centers. I knew that there's hospitals, I knew that there's pills I could take. I knew there's people I could talk to, but it was like, not yet. A little bit further to go, right? And when someone's like I hit a bottom, there's always a further bottom until it's death, right? Death is the final bottom. So I was like, I'm 25% away from the bottom that I would like clean up my life. And I actually hear this a lot from young men. I talked to a lot of young men in their 20s. And they're like, "Man, you've done so much up, Dave. "Like I feel like almost like I need to do a little bit more "before I get help." And the deceptive side of addiction is if you tell someone you have a problem with fentanyl or alcohol, they go, "Oh, you got a real problem. "You better take care of that." But it's completely acceptable today in our society for a young person to wake up, gamify their love life, right? Swiping and then play video games for multiple hours, masturbate to porn, smoke the most powerful weed. And that's not a problem. That's just life. Everyone does that. Yeah. That's the way of life. And if I go to my manager and he opens up my Instagram and he shows me my DMs, I'm lost. I'm lost. I wanna kill myself. Give me some things I can do. And it's just... So, I sat there in the same way. I was like, what really is my problem? I wish I had a sex addiction. I was sleeping with multiple women a day and not enjoying any of it. I was winning millions of dollars a day and not enjoying any of it. (David laughs) Boom, Dave. Boom. And I go, but it's a problem for me. It's a problem for me. But that becomes an impediment to reaching out for help because it's like who's gonna acknowledge that? And people always go, "Well, we don't understand why a guy like Bordain killed himself." And I go, "That's why." Because he's already a God and everyone considers him the most interesting man in the world. Is that guy allowed to come to you and say, "Yo, I'm like you and I..." Well, dude, come on, man. You got... So, that's where I was at. I was hiding in plain sight in all these social acceptable, having too much sex, gambling and like, just man, you fly to Vegas in a private jet and a Bentley picks you up. And I was dying inside. And you did have that group of friends who knew that it was out of control and were trying to help you. So, had you had raised your hand earlier, that peer group who, I mean, didn't they intervene on you a bunch of times? I mean, they were trying to (indistinct) There was another intervention in the rehab to stay like I try to get out. How many rehabs did you go to? I've been to, well, I don't know if rehab is the right words. I've been to the Meadows. I've been to Pine Grove, Salon, Hoffman, PCH. I mean, I can't... Some of those are more behavioral. Yeah. A lot of it's behavioral stuff. So, yeah. The last one they physically... And that kind of, when you pick a sponsor and stuff, you're like, do I want a sponsor who's gonna be like nice to me and be gentle or do I want, hey, like drill Sergeant? So, today I need more gentleness, but I was at the time of my life where I wouldn't, because of how I was raised, I would really wouldn't respond to people unless they were yelling at me or physically... So, that's what I needed at the time. And in my mind, I was like shit, there was... And my friend, one of my closest friends, he said to me in the car ride, he said, "Hey, listen, we can't change you. "We can't control you. "So, if you wanna get out of the car right now, go ahead. "But you're not an idiot. You know how this story ends. "You've seen enough, you've watched enough movies, "you know enough people. "Like you will die. You will go to jail again. "Like these things will happen. "So the only thing you got a question is, "do you wanna do it now "or do you wanna wait till you hit your bottom?" And I was like, "I kind of wanna wait until I hit that bottom." And in that moment of sobriety and clarity, I was like, "I'll get the help now." And then I went to my first place and I met people who it was just like shocking. Just people... As an addict, these are those things like when you're growing up and you're innocent and you're a kid. And when I look at children and they're just pure. And you tell yourself, whether you just start casually drinking or casually looking at porn or casually smoking marijuana, you go, "Well, I'll never suck a dick "for crack on skid row." It's not the plan for anybody. But then it happens. So, I think of how many things in my life I said, I'll never do that and yet here I am doing these things. And then the addict craves novelty, right? So, you play the thing out until you don't feel any more. And then you're like, "What's behind door number two?" And then the final door is death. So, I got to meet the people who took it to the furthest. And I was like, holy shit. I'm so glad I pulled the parachute when I did. And and today, I mean, I am a sponsor to a lot of people in different programs. And I have a lot of shame that I've never gotten anyone past step two at 12 steps because I take people through the way my sponsor took me through. And one of the things is I've yet to meet someone with the iron will, a well-disciplined brain who can resist the temptations of a cell phone, right? 'Cause what is a cell phone? Is a drug dealer, strip club, casino. Like I could tell you a million stories of how I used to get high off those things and what I had to do to get porn when I was 15, what I had to do to get to a casino. Now it's just this. So, I'm not gonna be able to resist that. So, what's the first thing anyone says when they say we need to take your phone away, or we need to block your phone so that you have a child-safe phone. "Oh, I need it for work, right? "Oh, it's for work." Okay, right? Then it's okay. And they go, "Well, can you have someone else do the work stuff for you?" "Oh no, no, no. I got to do it myself." So, until I was ready to fully surrender, which took years. And now I'm so liberated, right? You would think, "Oh, why do you need to restrict me "like the news and shit? "Like you gotta be informed." I was like, "I know what's going on. Enough people have phones. They tell me what's going on. She literally don't have a phone. Haven't had one. I have a phone, but it has a... It's stripped off all the apps or whatever. There's two main apps, it's called MobiSip and Covenant Eyes. There might be a better one now. But my phone is I can only use it to take pictures and to call people or texts. That's it. So I can't like look at the internet and I can't... How long have you been doing that? Five years now. Yeah, and it changed my life. I mean, it has to just make you a happier person. Oh my God. It's like... One of the luxuries I spend a lot of time, and I'm sad that I haven't been able to, since COVID in Tanzania with this tribe, the Hadza, the hunter gatherer. Yeah. I remember you talking about that on Rogan. So, I mean, when you wake up in your day and what are the things that we say here, I need a job. I'm looking for a job or what should I do today? Like when you're a hunter-gather, you have a job. It's to get food. That's it, every day. Every day when you wake up, it's get food and there is no free time. So, when I come home and the anxiety and the stress and all these things start to build, even without a phone, just living in a city 'cause the city is an unnatural kind of thing, that free time, that freedom of like having free time is the thing that... If I have free time, I will get into trouble, right? Idle hands are the devil's playground and all that stuff. Like I will get into some stuff. So, to have to wake up and just have purpose. So, one of the things is restricting the phone so that I don't even have... I don't know what I don't know. And then having things in my life that are meaningful. And one of the hardest things was doing that, surrendering the phone. And then the second thing was lying, which comes in many different forms, right? Like you are liar, everyone listening to this thing is a liar. No, I'm not, I'm not a liar. And I go, well, there's lying by withholding information. There's lying through storytelling, changing details, exaggeration. And there's using, that's not lying, but like using humor to deflect, there's all these things. So, it took me forever to just admit that I was a liar. I was at a place that was pretty severe. They put you on a lie detector every week and they ask you questions and my thing... Like to rewire your brain. Rewire your brain. I go, "This isn't normal. "Like no one's gonna put me in a lie detector in real life." They go, "We know that, "but while you're here and you're getting help, "we want you to." I go, "People know me as a storyteller. "If I don't exaggerate "and like come up with funny anecdotes. And then who am I?" And they go, "That's fine. "There's a time and place for that." And my brain is so binary with like, I'm either this guy or you can't. And they're like, "There's a time and place for things." And it just took forever where the place where I was at was so serious and so depressing and so much trauma and addiction and all these things that I was the class clown, right? Every meeting would end with me going, like turning a joke into everything. So on one leg, they put a sticker that said, no joking. And then on the other leg, it said no lying. So... Yeah. All your tools. All my tools. And they said, "Look, we're your treatment team. "Like you do whatever the fuck you want "when you get outta here, but we're not judging you. "You lying. "Where did you learn how to lie? From your parents? "From the way you grew up, "you grew up in a very unsafe environment "so you had to train yourself to lie "so that you could be safe. So for that, you could be grateful. But guess what? "You're not a kid anymore. "You don't ever need to lie again ever, "but because it's so ingrained into how you speak, "sometimes you just do it without..." So I go, "Well, what do I do in that situation?" They go, "Well, you can correct yourself within 24 hours." And I go, "What?" So when you lie and you catch yourself and you tell a story that you've told a million times, and then you're like, "Wait a second. That actually isn't true." And that was like, I mean, that through my friends, they were like, "What the fuck, who are you?" I would say something and they would be like, "Hey, you run today?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I did. I did a quick hike." And then the next day. I'd call them an hour later I go, "Hey, you know what I said, I didn't hike. "I actually just went outside to get the newspaper." Well, one of those things with this story that you told repeatedly around like the television show thing, right? Right, right. See, I'm even trying to go, like what's the lie and what's the truth? I had just done Howard Stern and Scott Rudin had heard the interview. And he said, "I don't understand "how no one's auctioned you life for TV show yet." And so, I do some quick research, who's Scott Rudin? And I'm like, oh, shit, he's the e-God, he's done everything. He's done every single TV show that I watch and every movie that I like and he's like, "If I was to turn your life into a TV show, "how do you see that?" And I'm like, "It has to be a Reverend, "has to be ridiculous. It has to be like curb your enthusiasm, "has to be the most ridiculous version of me "and use me at my expense, "like humiliate the shit out of me." Like the more you make me look like a loser and stuff, the better. And he's like, "I got the perfect guy for you." And so this was the rehab I was in Hawaii for gambling addiction, or that's what they told me on the phone. And I got there. They'd never heard of it. So, I was at this rehab where everyone was there for meth and I was there going... (David and Rich laugh) So, and this was probably not appropriate, but a weekend I'd barely just gotten in. They sent Harris Whittles who had written for Parks and Rec in eastbound and down to interview me. And he was interviewing me, and there's, I don't know, like a hundred hours of tape of me telling him all my childhood stories and then all the crazy stuff I did. And so that was one deal. And then the other deal was, Bordain had been grooming me to, he wanted me to write a book for him on his publishing label. And his team were like, he's not gonna do this forever, right? So, he wants to pass the mantle at some point. I'm like, holy fuck. He goes, the thing with you and Tony is, I had a show on Vice called "Thumbs Up" where I hitchhike around the world. And, I dunno, a couple people saw that. And he has like the biggest show. (David laughs) But he goes, but for you to travel and talk to people, that's just your life. It's not like you would have to like do that. So, your life is very similar to his. And instead of the food angle, you could do like an art angle. And I was just like so sick in all of my addictions. And I'm like, and yet once again, I'm being rewarded, I'm getting these TV show deals. And that wasn't the lie. Those things were true. But then I said something on my podcast that got me canceled and all those deals disappeared. And because I couldn't live with abandonment and rejection is one of my biggest traumas. You don't fucking say no to me. I say no to you. And as long as I'm talking on the mic, edit, remix, like, oh, I turn those offers down. Yeah. The story that you told us that you walked away from that because you had this self-awareness that you didn't wanna have a life that was like Tony's, that made it very difficult for him to be in public. And you're like, "I have enough money. "Like I don't really want that piece of fame. "So, I don't need that." Which made you sound like courageous and heroic. And actually, so that it's not so binary, there was truth in that, but that option was just taken away. Like as I was contemplating, do I want a TV show? Is this what I want? It was like, record, scratch and it's off the table. And I was like, okay, I guess it doesn't really matter. Meanwhile, Harris overdoses and dies from... Whew. So... I knew I knew him a little bit, not well, but... Yeah. I mean, he died while I was at the Meadows and he had just gotten sober. So, he texted me. And one of the reasons why that showed him to move forward was the script that he turned in was horrible. And I was so codependent with him at that point. I didn't know how to, I was like this guy is one of my favorite writers. And he had told me he had started taking Oxycontin, one a night. And I didn't know what that was until I learned at this place that was supposed to be for gambling that that's like basically heroin. And I was like, "Whoa, you better be careful, man." And he's like, "Ah, I got it, Dave. I'm all right." So, looking back, I'm like, man, he asked a lot of like recovery questions when he came to interview me and I was like, "Oh, maybe he was like tryna get help for himself." And so, when I was at my second rehab at the Meadows, he had died, but the last text he sent me was, "Hey, Dave, I'm so sorry about that script I sent "like a year ago. "It was, I don't know if you know, "but I was like so messed up on drugs. "It was like the worst thing I've ever written. "I owe you a new script. "And I'll see you when you get out of this place, "like try not to have sex with any of the nurses." Or something like that. Something like Harris. And then like two weeks later, I found out that he had passed. And that was my perfect excuse to get out of rehab. I was like, "My friend's dead, I gotta go to his funeral." And they're like, "You just got into treatment, "like a real place." Not like the place that says they're for gambling. "Do you think your friend who's dead now "would want that for you?" And I was like, "Fuck you for saying that." Like he's my friend, of course, I'm gonna go to his funeral and pay respect. And they're like, "Your friend died in addiction. "Do you think you'd want you to leave?" And that just made me so angry, but everything made me angry. You weren't exactly in a place to surrender. Right. But I did, I did. I surrendered and they said, "Look, we can have a Memorial service, like in the desert, "you can pick a place and you can honor him "how you wanna honor him." And so, I did that instead. And I've just been to so many of these places and they're so expensive and I go to these AA meetings and they're free. And I sit here. And it's not me just rebelling just to rebel or to challenge just to challenge, but it's like whenever Bill started AA, he's like, okay, that was a different time, right? So, and you've talked to so many people and I've talked to so many people and I said I wanna go, AA, alcoholics anonymous, and yet we all know addicts, or we are addicts ourselves. And so, there's all this shit, like isn't the anonymity part of the shame, right? Like, and I think too, my days as a graffiti artist, right? And I was on tour with this guy, Saber and Retina, and we go to a strip club and the strippers have anonymous name. Hi, I'm Lazar. Hi. I'm... Like everyone has superhero supervillain name. Which is also derived out of shame. Right. It's all shame. Maybe protecting them also 'cause it's dangerous to do that. Weird stalkers and stuff. But now we live in a world of OnlyFans and porn stars are more accepted and sex workers are more accepted. And I've been to meetings where the most powerful, famous people on the planet are there and yet it's... And I go, can we get rid of the... I don't know if we're there yet, but can we get to a place closer where we get rid of the anonymous part? Can we have... It's tricky. It's tricky. I mean, I've made personal choices around my own anonymity or lack thereof, but I'm also cautious about protecting other people's anonymity. And then the line gets really gray when it comes to just talking about AA generally on a public platform, because technically it violates one of the traditions. So, I never know where that line is because my motivation is, I want people to understand that this is something that's available to them. I wanna de-stigmatize it because I had a lot of shame about going into it. And I had a lot of assumptions and judgements about what it was based on what I saw on television or movies and having no real connection to it or knowing anybody that was in it because it's anonymous. And yet there still is a lot of stigma, not everywhere is Los Angeles. So how do we, that's true. Well, we talk about it. I think we talk about it, but we're careful and conscious about the way in which we talk about it. Well, part of the 12 steps is higher power, right? And so for someone who grew up with spiritual and religious abuse, that was the part where I was like, "I'll just cut this part out. I'll do 11 steps. "Or I'll do seven steps. "I don't need bees. I was like tryna edit, pick and choose." And you bring up tradition, right? As humans we like structure, we like tradition. And I just had so much trouble with that part. I'm like, I grew up in a really religious, abusive house. And I don't pray to God. I don't do any of that stuff. And they go, well, you're gonna have a tough time because the way they worded is like the higher power of your understanding. And I go, "I don't understand any higher power." And then I finally had a sponsor that said I don't care. They're like, "You're mortal, right? You're a human being." I go, "Yeah." So your ego, like what part of you thinks that you would ever understand, see or comprehend what God is? And I go, "So I don't give a shit if you're like," so you go through all the religions, all the history of the world and you're like, my God is blue and has 20 arms. Mine has a beard. Mine... Like didn't you say you're an artist? I go, "Yeah, I'm an artist." Someone made that church. Someone wrote that hymn, someone designed that flying buttress, someone made that hat, and like, these are humans. Like they might be touched by God, but someone made these things, like someone drew that portrait of Jesus. Like you're very limiting when it comes to, like why don't you draw your own God? And I was like, "Whoa, that's a heavy homework assignment." And he's like, "Until you do that, "like I actually don't care. "I want you to get on your hands and knees," which is a very humbling position. Like praying, like sitting up, putting your hands, get like begging position. I need food. I need water. Like please, sir, give me your clothes. Like I want you to get in the begging position and beg for your life back every night. That's how you pray. And so, that's how I got in touch with my higher power. And then today, I'm not trying to use my head too much, but just more my heart, like people like to talk about I'm in the flow or something like that. Like, am I... And I go, creativity is God. Like us as humans, what differentiates us from other animals? And I go, when I'm creating, that's me praying. When someone's like sitting in, like life is boring, I'm in a prison cell or I'm at home and life has no meaning. And it's just like, "Wait, I got an idea for a song. Or I wanna try to make a new kind of silverware eating utensil. I got a new idea. Like I'm like that is conscious contact with a higher power. That is me directly, God speaking to me and me speaking to God. And so, I don't know. That's just the antisocial side of me that's always questioning. Okay. So the 12th traditions are like, we have to be press and media, how we talk about this and that. And I go, "What did I learn in all the 12 step meetings "I've been to? "What did I learn in all the behavioral places? "The mental hospitals, like I've been to so many." And it's like, did you have to be the most messed up? Did you have to hit a bottom to go there? Did you have to have an addiction to go there? And it's like, no, I think about school and education. What did I learn? Photosynthesis, did it that I need to know that, did I need algebra? All these things I learned is like, did I need to learn how to speak up for myself? Ask for what my needs are? Did I need someone to show me what a boundary is and how to use it? Like, I mean, I'll tell you something that happened today that, I was like gleaming on the car right here. It took me like an hour to get here. And I was just like overjoyed. My mom's been doing this like kind of massage thing to me since I was a kid where it's, I guess it's Asian where she just steps on my back. She's just like all my pressure points. So, she saw me and she's like, "You're fat. "You look fat and disgusting." I go, "Thanks, mom." She goes, "Your posture is horrible." And I've put on a lot of weight during the pandemic. And she's like, "Get down, I'm gonna massage you." And as she's massaging me, she starts talking about some Bible story. And one of the boundaries I've had in my life is I'm not telling you how to worship your God just when you come into my home, like I would like it if you didn't do that. And so, the child in me would be like, "Mom, if you fucking do that, "I'm never gonna talk to you again." It's very childish, immature. And she already knows I will talk to her again. So as I say, boundaries without consequences is just a request. So, she starts doing that. And then I have what the therapist called emotional incest with my mom. Like she's meshed with me. So, another thing that she said, (David laughs) so as you know, lower back, Joseph in the Bible and the Technicolor dream coat and whatever. And I'm like, I go, "Oh, this is, I have a voice." I can say, "Hey, mom, I've asked you not to." But instead of because she's literally stepping on me and stepping on me like verbally, I didn't say anything. So that she gets higher. She goes, it doesn't really matter who you choose to be with, who you start a family with. They'll never be your mother. And I go, "Oh, great." And she goes, and then she's literally stepping on my back while she's saying this. And she goes... Like physically repressing you while she's laying down the emotional fucking dead weight. It's so funny and sad at the same time, 'cause it's comical. Or it's driven by her fear. Like she's afraid that she's gonna lose you. Right. And in that moment, at this point, I'm so in tune with my body that I can go, okay, time to send my mind somewhere else. Like I'm gonna consciously disassociate because I don't. And so I go, part of my self defense mechanisms is humor. So, I gotta turn this into a joke now. And I go, "So what mom? Like what do you mean?" She's like, "Well, if you get married and you start a family, "like, say you kill someone." And I'm like, this is ridiculous. She goes, "Say you murder someone. "Your wife may or may not protect you, "but me, you know I'm gonna hide you. "You know I'm gonna get you to." (Rich laughs) And I just start dying. I just started dying. I'm like laughing. And I'm laughing 'cause I wanna cry. And she leaves, she finishes stepping on my head and my neck and then she leaves and... Asserting her dominance. She's like, I'm the main bitch in your life and don't you forget it. And she leaves and I sit there and I go, "I feel horrible right now. I don't feel good." And I start to think, I don't have rich till like 11. I should go eat a cheeseburger at McDonald's right now. That'll make me feel better. And I go, "Oh, how about I reinforced that boundary?" So, I go, I drive to her house before I come here. And I say, I open with gratitude and positivity. I go, "Mom." So, it's not like a, I don't want it to be a shaming thing with her. And I also don't wanna go into co-dependence where I'm like protecting, but you're a good mom. I say, "Hey, mom, I come here with love. "You know that I love you. "You know how much you mean to me "and yet I've asked you repeatedly not to..." And this is what my therapist taught me there. Like if you're cutting someone out of your life, it's one and done, right? You're like, "Don't do this. "And the next time you do it, you're out." But if it's someone like a family member that you wanna keep in your life, you will have to train them like a dog, like the neuro-plasticity stuff. It's like, it's not like you're gonna hold the boundary once and they're gonna learn. You will have to repeatedly do that. So, you're gonna have these awkward, uncomfortable conversations, but I'm at the point now where I'm in seven years. So, I like awkward, uncomfortable conversations. And so, I said, "Hey, I've asked you not to bring up "the Jesus stuff. "And I've asked you to not do this stuff "where you own me. And you're my property. "It's disrespectful to the people in my life "and it's not cool. And it doesn't make me feel good." She launches immediately. Like the playbook says into defense. Oh, gaslighting. "No, no, no, no. "You heard me wrong. That's not what I was saying. "Maybe it 'cause it's in English. "Let me say it in Korean." Says the exact same thing. And I find myself reverting to a 12-year-old girl. Oh, oh, oh, oh, you're right. And I go, "So. I've heard everything you said, "and I still love you. "And because you didn't do what I asked "when you come to my house, "because I love you, but I also love myself. "I need a time out from you and you can't come into my house "for the next two weeks." Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm Cool. And then on the way here, she texted me, you're gonna like this. It's like her fuck you to me. I'm trying to be as functional in a dysfunctional... (Rich laughs) The thing with that though is like doing it from a place of neutrality so you're not triggered and you're not being reactive. And you're also not attached to whatever her reaction is or is not. Like she's gonna react however she's gonna react. It's not about changing her behavior. It's about releasing that boundary so that you're free and you're not carrying around all that like baggage and shame. Rich, I'm free, man. Like I... What did she say? Did you read? Oh, you want me to read it? It's her... I don't know how you wanna take this, but here it is. Oops. Okay. Hi, with peace and love. (David and Rich laughs) I wanna get some things off my chest because it's important for me that I am known. And like, that's also not how she talks. So, someone's definitely writing, and I have a dog. And like she's asked me, don't bring your dog in the house. And it's like a little dog that's not annoying at all. But because my mom has her own trauma with like a dog biting her when she was in Korea, I do not want dogs in my house. I am uncomfortable and I want this feeling to be respected. This is my house and I need to feel comfortable. And about mealtime, I work very hard on cooking good meals for everyone. I put a lot of love into it, please from now on, make sure that everyone waits for my prayer before we eat. Please respect me. Thank you. (David laughs) That's fucking hilarious for so many reasons. Like we've spent an hour on that text alone, like on the one hand, it's awesome that she just completely deflected you and didn't acknowledge anything about what you said and just comes back with her own boundaries, which on another level, like good for her. Yeah, no. Like she's got some pain around whatever boundary you're disrespecting and she's asserting that boundary so cool. And so like a dog, it's funny that we're talking about dogs. All these behavioral places, I'm usually the youngest guy there. Like when I was 35, like most of the guys are in their 50s or 60s. And we're learning all these things about neuroplasticity and how to change behavior. And I'm like, "These motherfuckers aren't gonna change." Like you can't teach an old dog new tricks. They're not gonna change. It's like you have to do so much. I do believe in neuroplasticity, but you have to do so much work and focus and discipline for it to work. And I get out and I told my brothers, this is all the I learned. And they're like, "Don't you think mom's gonna change?" And to her credit, she has. In the last five years, like to me, the reason why I feel good is, good for her, for her boundaries. 'Cause she wouldn't have said it like that before. And not sending you a reactive text, but like waiting a little bit, having somebody help her craft the language, put some thought into it. And not to make it a race thing, I don't know any Asians that talk like this, like this is like advanced level karate. And she did say she did acknowledge me. I said my boundaries and I said for this reason, this is why you can't come over for two weeks. And then it's for me to just feel safe in my own house. Like, oh, here she is just creeping in again. And she lives five minutes from my house that's why. And so, any other time in my life, number one, I could never say that to my mom. "I'm your fucking mother. You don't talk to me that way. "If I'm crossing your boundaries, good. "You know how much shit I did for you? "You know how much stuff I had to go through "to bring you here?" So, okay. I'll keep it down. So, not only would I not bring it up, if I brought it up, it would be so much shame on like, but if you don't want to, like, oh, maybe not two weeks, maybe three days. Like it be a lot of backpedaling, apologizing. Gotta make sure she's okay. And all of it goes to, she's my elder, she's my mom. I respect her. And the mortality of it, how much longer is she gonna live? 10, 20, 30 years. I guess I'll just, at the cost of me, I guess I'll just keep myself down for the next 20, 30 years. And to now to speak up, it's like, she's an adult. She can take it. And so everyone in my family has noticed, they're like, "Wow, mom has changed." And so, is that addiction stuff? It is, because all of that... It's such a strange sentence to say out loud. My mom said something about God to me, I didn't know how to feel about it. So I lost a million dollars at the casino and had sex with prostitutes I didn't want to, that's my old... It's like, that's what happened. My mom said something to me so now I did something so that my body would get hurt or someone... I went on a podcast and said outrageous things about her so that I would feel more shame and people would hate me more, or I could end up canceling. Like that's how it would manifest myself. And there was... And beneath it all is this child who is deeply sensitive and like naturally very empathetic who has trouble processing all of the emotional stimuli that the world is throwing at him compensates for that through all manner of behaviors and creating all kinds of chaos only to return to this place where he has to heal himself so that he can embrace his natural tendency toward empathy and celebrate his sensitivity. So, immediately, I wanna make a joke right now, but instead, I just... Like the minute you walked in here, you defied my expectation of how you were gonna comport yourself because you were very calm and you were kind of quiet. And my relationship with you is seeing kind of a little bit of the crazy. And then in watching your show, which is the whole reason that we came together today. Like I see somebody who, like the whole motivation behind the show, it seems to me, at least what I got out of it, is your ability to sit with people in their pain and kind of celebrate our shared brokenness as something beautiful. Yeah. I appreciate you saying all of that. So, to go from the lies of the TV shows I had, I have no desire to be on TV, and yet I am on TV, right? Like there's no part of me is like, oh... Use your walking conundrum in that. Or like, I mean, hypocritical, I think is cast like a negative connotation on it, but you contradict yourself. And part of that is what it means to be an artist, I think, at least in your case. It's so fun for me to have like (indistinct) team call me or David Chang or whoever and say, "Hey, can you come on the show for...? I hop in, I hop out, I have none of the pressure of carrying the show. It's fun for me. My life is a life of service now. That's something I'm also working. I can never say it's so difficult. My therapist said, "It's so easy for you to play the hero, "right?" That's how you get high. The more you play the hero, the more people talk about you, the more attention you get, the more money you get, the more all this. For you to go and say what you really do with your life, which is give your time to helping people, donate to all these things anonymously. Once again, anonymous, I go, "Well, it's such a thing to be like, "I donate to this and this." And they go, "Well, why not tell people what you do?" Because as someone some people do look up to you and look to you as a role model for you to say, hey, on the Joe Rogan thing, talking about the Hadza, tons of people donated money and are helping with the cause now. And it's actually helping those people. And I go, "Yeah, I still feel weird." Because it's like, look at me. I don't wanna be that guy that's like, "I donate, "I'm the hero." So, I hide all the good things I do because I don't want to, I don't know that there's some kind of shame with someone saying, I feel way more comfortable when people are like, I look at some of the replies of the show. They're like, "Oh, the show changed my life. It's great. "And my friend was gonna kill himself. "He watched, the show is great." And I just go through that. And then there's one going, "You're a fraud, "your show, it's the garbage, like it's unwatchable." And I go, "Oh, here we go. Now I like this." So, it goes back to everything I'm talking about right now. I go, I'll spend an entire day with the kid and he'll think nothing's wrong with them, and yet he's suicidal. And he's, it's not drugs, it's not alcohol. And so, I'll give my life force and my energy to this kid. And at the end of the day, I'm like I'm so happy that I was able to help one other person. And then my ego flares up and goes, "Fuck, if that day was filmed and it was on TV, "then I could have helped hundreds, millions of whatever." And yet it's just to be like, that was enough. I was enough that day. And so, I always believe like, and this is something I'm working on, but I believe 100% that nobody believes in me. I've been in pitch rooms, I've pitched TV shows before. And the way those two TV show deals got pulled out because I said something on a podcast, I go, okay. So, and we live in a fear-based society, fear-based religion, fear-based... So, I go, okay, the only way for me, and the way I look at the "Choe Show" my TV show is, is how can I give back the things I've learned to the most amount of people? And I go, "Is it on social media?" Well, that's one component of it. But at this point, I still don't know too many kids that watch TV. Most kids I know watch YouTube and TikTok. But I go, I think TV is still relevant enough. And there's something going on in Topanga, Malibu, this area, like you, Rick Rubin, Neil Strauss, like there's, I'll be honest. Like I feel more comfortable now than now that we've sat here for a little bit. But like Neil Strauss is a friend of mine. He's one of the smartest guys I know. He's very good friends with Neil. Yeah. He's one of my favorite writers. I know that you know him and I talked to him close to nine to 12 hours, I don't remember 'cause it went into the night and then the next day. Oh, you mean when you were taping? So, he's actually in the TV show for like, I dunno, five minutes, 10 minutes maybe or less. But that day I was so intimidated in the same way when I was coming here. I'm like, he's so smart. He has so much information in that brain. He talks so fast. He's so witty. He's so clever. And so, I just I'm like, "Oh man, I got to study. "I gotta..." Like in the same way so many people in treatment, the way when you see it physically, when someone physically transforms their body into a bodybuilder and they're like, "Look at how strong I am, "no one can ever hurt me. My dad beat me, "but no one ever is gonna... "I'm a UFC muscle man fighter. "No one's ever gonna fight me." So many of the people that I've met in treatment are geniuses, right? They're brilliant. They've invented stuff. They've started entire economies. So, their brains are... And as the therapist said, you're not gonna out smart, run out an emotion. And no matter what you think of Facebook. You're like, wow, this brilliant guy started a social media giant because he wanted to have sex with women. And you think of Elon Musk, you're like, this guy is gonna get us to Mars because he wants to run away from his dad. Like it's just, what are we gonna do when we get to Mars? We're gonna mess up Mars. Like why don't you just go to therapy? And it's like that fear. He's like, "I'm less scared of Martians and Mars "than what I'm gonna find out here." So, I go... And to be living your life unconsciously reacting to that thing and just action after action, after action, after action, creating a whole life around some wound. (indistinct). You think that you can just push away and not deal with. And that's why I guarantee you that you can run longer than me. But if we went out in the parking lot and did a 50 meter dash, I can beat you because I'm a sprinter and I can run so fast. And when I was doing thumbs up, when I was like, yeah, and I'm a gambler and I'm a dah, dah, dah. People are like, "What are you running away from?" And it was that unconscious like, I just can't sit still for one second. If I sit still for one second, then there's discomfort. It's discomfort. So, even sitting with Neil and then doing that talk, I know he had just started doing a podcast of reopening murder trials. And I felt great fear for his child, for his wife. And I just sat in that. I was like, I'm not gonna outsmart Neil Strauss. He's smarter than me. He's more brilliant than me. I just wanna tell my friend how I feel. And he was talking circles around me and trying to, someone needs to do a Dave, like someone needs to like, and I go but why you? And so for hours, just verbal sparring and like, and then finally after we finish, he got in the car, he's driving back to Malibu and I call him and he's like, "I gotta apologize to you." And I was like, "What?" And he's like, "Well, you were just trying to tell me "how much you love me and how you're worried about me. "And I just went into like intellectualism." And I was like, "Fuck, I wish you could have said that "on the show." And he's like, "Well, I owe you another better interview." So, he came back and we talked for another six hours and then he was more vulnerable then. And I was like, these are conversations I've never seen in my life on television. And so, in my mind, this is my life. In my life, I get naked with other men. I share every part of me and they share. And then we cry together and I do this with everybody. And so when people go, "Oh, that's such a brave thing you did or whatever," it's just my norm. So, when it was time to put something like this on television, there was a lot of episodes that got pulled. In the last seven years, I've interviewed over 2000 people. And in the same way no one has ever heard some of these podcasts, and I have thousands of paintings no one's ever seen, there's still fear in me. I go, I have a lot to share, and it's completely unedited. Like it's just the whole spectrum of human and everyone who cares about me and is saying, "Don't put that stuff out there." And so I go, "You know what? "One of the things that rich people "tell other rich people is, "don't pay for your own stuff. "Like you can get other people to pay for it." And I go, "Well, when the other people pay for it, "they get creative control, whatever." So, I made the show exactly the way I wanted to. I talked to all these people that I know or know of. And it was, I don't know if television is the medium for me, 'cause they call it a streaming wars for a reason. There's all these analytics and stuff that people go, okay, if you get Seth Rogan on your show, then you get more views. And I'm just trying to... It's the question I asked you earlier. For me to do a show like that, I know that I'm helping people and I'm helping myself, but what's the cost of that, right? What is it? I don't know. What is the cost of it? I mean, my sense in watching it is that it's very clear that it's this heart-centered piece, it's so creatively unique in its expression that it could only be you. So, it's definitely this sense of like living in your mind or kind of living inside of one of your paintings. And it's a reflection of all of this work that you've done. Like as somebody who's steeped in recovery and therapy and the like, like those are conversations that I have, that I've learned to have, that I look forward to, that I appreciate, that are so important to my life. But I'm also very aware that that's not the norm with most people. So, how do you give people a sense of what that can be like for them, the healing power of that and the beauty. And I think that you found a way to do it in a really entertaining and creative way, leading with vulnerability and guiding people who perhaps have no prior experience with anything like that, to show them not only, like are these conversations okay to have, but just how empowering they can be. And when you hear someone like Neil or Steve-O, or the other people that you've had like share their pain and you realize like, these are human beings, we don't get out of life alive. We all have our troubles and our obstacles and the things that we faced and had to overcome, it humanizes everybody. And I think it's like this healing frequency that comes out from the screen that is unusual in our media landscape right now. And I think that's why I personally like responded to it. And not to down, thank you for saying all that, but not to downplay, but the show is not a cultural phenomenon. Like in my mind, I wanted it to be... I mean, it's a hard sell. My best friend called me and said, "The show is you. I know you, I love it. "It's like I was crying watching it. "And yet I had to watch it like porn." I'm like, "What are you talking about?" "So like every time my wife came in, "I had to like shut it off. "And she's like, what are you watching?" And there's no way I can watch a show like that with my wife without having an uncomfortable conversation after, and that's a conversation I don't wanna have. And so... Maybe that's a conversation he needs to have though. Right. And well, that's what I would say. And so, I sit there afterwards and I go, "Oh, there's a lot of people that are saying, "Hey, I watched that show alone in my room." And I go, "Well, why don't you watch it with your husband "or wife or your parents or your kids?" And they're like, "No, thanks." So, there's people... When I had Erica Garzon talking about her addiction to masturbation and porn, I had another close friend say, "I have monitoring software on my kid's phone. "So I know how much my 15-year-old watches porn, "it's like a lot. "And yet I have no entry point "on how to have that conversation with him." So I said, "Hey, you wanna watch uncle Dave on this TV show?" And it was uncomfortable as hell. You're talking about porn. The woman's talking about porn, and I'm sitting there with my son and I know he watches all this stuff. He doesn't know that I watch it. And there's all this shame coming up. And yet because you put that out into the world, we were able to have a talk about that afterwards. And I was like, that's awesome. That's what it's about, man. And even if that talk doesn't happen, it's like going to an AA meeting before you're ready to get sober. Like you don't walk out of there and get struck sober, but a seed is planted. And it's kind of like once you've had been exposed to that, like you can't quite shake it, right? It's like kind of ruminating around in your consciousness. So, I wanna plant as many seeds as I can. And when someone goes, "Hey, have you tried this new therapeutic EMDR, whatever, like psycho drug?" I go, I'm in. Enough said I'm in. And they go, "Well, it's really expensive. "And they don't let everyone in." I go, so, I've been to all these places and the ceiling that's always hit is that it's a business, right? It's like whenever, as they say in the treatment, like you have a breakthrough, right? It's like, "Well, how do you feel right now, Dave? "I'm gonna fucking break all these cameras right now." Well, you can't do that. All right. So I guess, I thought this was a safe place. I thought I could do whatever. So, I found that I was having these amazing breakthroughs and I was watching people who I thought would never have breakthroughs, like people that remind me of my dad and people that remind me of like my younger self having these amazing breakthroughs. And yet you're still in an office building, right? You're still sitting in chairs in the office and I'm like, "Let's go outside." And they're like, "Dave, there's a dentist office out. "Like you can't do that." And I go, "Oh, you can't, but I can. "I have creative license. I have artistic license. "I could..." So, I tell everyone, like I'm not a guru. I'm not a therapist even though I've probably been in rooms with group therapy, one-on-one therapy. I've been at rehab centers that are meant to be like 30 days, 90 days. And I've been there for two years. So, I'll have been there when you're there. And then six months later, I'll be like, "Wait, are you married to?" And so, I'll hear your wife's side of the story and then I'll hear your kid's side of the story. So, I have a lot of this information in my head and I go, oh, wow. Like this is a lot. And I feel like all the things that I do of helping people, donating money and my time it's like, it's like, oh, you give a home... I'm like, "Oh, I'll give a homeless guy some money and some clothes and some food. He's like, he's not making light of what I did. I helped him for that day for that moment. But did that get to the root of it? Did that get the brokenness? And I go, "How can I... It's like, as someone who has privilege, who has wealth, like what is my best way to serve myself and humanity and help one another cause you get to... When we had Trump as president, like, man, fuck this guy's. He's a horrible. And it's like, you know just as well, there's a broken child in there. There's a hurt child in there. And is there any place in our culture for a guy, if he woke up the next day and was like, "Man, I've messed up. I wanna change." It's like, "No." It's just kill that guy. Like down with him. And so, it's so polarizing. And even with myself, you get into any treatment, you go to narcotics anonymous and it's like, there's a hierarchy, right? It's like, oh, well, we're into opioids and all you do is smoke weed. And oh, I had more trauma than you and this and that. And I sit there and I go, if there's no room in our culture for redemption and change, so as someone who's is like me, who is so judgmental, who is a hater, I always try to lead with love. And so, I've been asked to do such hard things in my recovery. There's people that are in recovery. I meet murderers and rapists and people that are in prison still and have done horrendous things, who've ripped people off and who should be in prison. And so, I'll meet them and I'll be asked to sponsor them. I'll be asked to work with them. And I go, "Absolutely not. "Like I think that person should burn in hell "and be in prison." And they go, "Can you also help them? "Can you want them to burn in prison "and hell and also help them?" And I go, "Fuck, I gotta think about that." Because for you, like if someone's out there and they've been a horrible person and they should be in prison and yet they're not in prison and they're still out and they want to change, is shaming them and yelling at them... So, I had these experiences where I would meet people and I go, and I would be able to tell them, I would be like, "I feel uncomfortable sitting next to you right now. "I know you got out of prison early. "I believe you should still be in prison "and should be there till you die. "And yet because you're not in prison "and I'm not judge/jury executioner, "I'm willing to work with you "if you are serious about changing." Because it doesn't help for someone who's like that to live in... 'Cause he's just going to be in society worse. And so, as they say, nothing changes if nothing changes. I was ready to sail off into the sunset, done with podcasting. I don't like the anxiety that comes with speaking behind a microphone. I don't need to be on TV. All those real things of why, before they took those opportunities away, why I did decide... What I was deciding whether or not to do TV, what I did see in Bordain, what I did see what fame and workaholism did to him, I was like, "I'll just do the one-on-one thing in private, "no cameras. I don't need to broadcast this. "I'll just help people the way I help people." And but there's the ego. And the workaholism is like, but I need to help everyone. I gotta help the whole world. Like I gotta change everything. And I sat in it and I already knew that there would be no network that would show that show. So, I went ahead and filmed. I made it myself. And then FX stepped in and their whole logo is fearless. And they set up... And they didn't get involved editorially with trying to change anything? There was a little bit, it was a conversation. I took the Louis deal, Louis C.K. created, edited, did everything for less money. So, I was like, "I'll take that deal. "I don't need to get paid. I never did this for the money." So, I took less money for more creative control. And they were concerned. Like no one else would sit down with me. Here's the thing that's about the shame and anonymity is someone at all those companies knows who I am. They're like, "Dude, I love you on Vice. I love Thumbs-up. "I love..." But we just can't do it. And they go, "But we're not gonna work." This show comes out, the new show. And I have some of the biggest celebrities on the planet reach out to me and they were like, "Dude, I don't even know who you are, "but someone turned your show on. "I watched all four episodes." And I was like, "Cool, can you be the next guest? "Can you tweet about?" And they're like, "No, no, no." Really? "This is just me privately telling you this." And I go, "Oh, okay." So, that's how deep those things run. And I'm forever grateful to everyone at Effects 'cause they're so cool to work with. And they put out all these challenging TV shows and stuff with like the antihero. And they said, "Listen, we..." 'Cause of the show was already done. They're like, the world needs to see this. This is amazing. We're just worried that like you might get canceled or you have such a crazy history of in saying things you've done and said, and I was like, "Oh, that what you're worried about? "That's easy for... "Let me make the decision for you. "Hard pass on David Choe." And they go, agh. And like, didn't you like learn your lesson with like Louie and all this other stuff? And also, you have a history of doing that reverse jujitsu maneuver where you take it off the table and they want it more. I don't know if I was doing, I mean, thank you for saying that. I mean, that might not have been your motivation, but that's the psychological impact of doing that. I just wanted to know that everyone had... So, I could be clear I'm like everyone has now rejected me. So now I can just become a YouTuber. I was like, once everyone has said, no... And it would have been huge on YouTube if you'd done that. I mean, and ultimately that's my, I don't know. And maybe more people would have seen it. But it always comes back down to this, and which is also the hesitancy to come here today is, when you do anything like that, outreach, recovery work, something where you're putting out a positive message, showing change, you will help people, but then comes with that an expectation. And when you spoke earlier about, so the show is doing good, and it was one of my biggest fears talking to Neil Strauss and other, like really smart, brilliant people in recovery is going to any of these behavioral places and learning about addiction and behavior, you're gonna learn all these tools and in the same way, like learning the force, you can use it for the light or the dark side. So, I've met people who are like brilliant in recovery and yet their lives are falling apart. And they go into this martyr thing and like I don't know Tony Robbins, but every time I see him speak, I'm like, holy shit, this guy is like, brilliant. And he's so selfless and helping all these people. And he seems like a douche. It's like two things. I'm like, "Would I ever wanna be that guy?" It's so weird. Like he's helping so many people through, and that's priceless and that's invaluable. And yet... Yeah. But your self-awareness around that piece is the differentiator. Like you have a conscious awareness that, a fear like of suddenly, kind of moving in that kind of weird guru direction. And I don't see that as a threat. It just doesn't feel like any part of your sensibility whatsoever. And what you had said earlier was this piece about like thinking about how you can be of servicing, and like yes, you can be of service in a one-on-one basis with that hard case dude or whatever it is. But ultimately, like when I look at you and I think about service more broadly, like what is it about you, like what can you do that no one else can do? There's other people with tons of money. There's other people that have more sobriety than you and have been to more rehabs and are more steeped in, the literature of psychology. The one thing that you have that no one else has is this very unique, artistic ability to express yourself in a very particular way. And for you to channel that in the direction, like in this vein of like gratitude and service and kind of raising the bar on the kind of conversations that we can have so we can help each other and heal each other. Like that's a gift, man. And that's why I think the show is a reflection of your very particular sensibility. But to me, it's coming from that place. And personally, like, selfishly, like I wanna see you do more of that because that's something nobody else can do. Do you wanna see me do more of that or would you like to participate in that? Well, no, what I'm saying is, I want you to embrace that aspect of who you are rather than resist it. I guess my... And to do it like with everything that you've learned about where your ego sits and what your relationship to it is so that you don't succumb to some of the things that Tony did or fall prey to workaholism and the like, because you've got that recovery (indistinct). But that's also the thing is recognizing I'm not beyond that. Just because I'm healthy now, doesn't mean I couldn't fall back into that. Sure. But it's an opportunity for you to reframe your relationship with what you do and do it in a healthy way, rather than just create a boundary and say, "I'm not gonna do it because it's too treacherous "or dangerous." Like is that a possibility for you? I feel like, as they say, you peel back the layers of the onion. I feel like today I'm not in crisis of all the things that used to plague me and the like kind of final boss is the workaholism. There is a side of me that loves to numb out and of course, in the spirit of helping people, right? To spend less time with my family and my friends and everything. And I have like an amazing, what I, if you talk to me seven years ago, would consider a very boring life, but it's a purposeful, meaningful life. There's times where things are hectic, but it's a pretty like mellow life in that. There's something deep in within me that's like, why are you gonna sleep right now? There's so much more energy, you can pull an all nighter right now. Well, you know now that you won't be present for your family the next day then, but you can work on so many projects right now. You know you have that capability, like that's my iron man, right? I can not sleep, no coffee, no drugs and work on 30 projects and start an art show and an immersive experience and develop other, I can do that, and just in the same way. Like most of those interviews on my show are from two years ago, that's how long it took to get that show on to TV. It took more work to get that on the TV than to actually make the show. And what happens when you put the show out, people go, "When's the next season?" I'm like, I worked on that with Pako and the guys from the Philippines. I mean, I know it's not the way you do normal TV, but we did something on every frame of that. Like there's so much stuff that we put in there subliminally and hidden messages and stuff that, there was a lot of thought put into it. And people to go, someone's like, I'm like, how about sit with the thing that we made? And like is one season enough? Does there have to be a season two and these types of things? So, I'm impulsive, I like to just make decisions without thinking about it and to, once again, that whole thing with like waiting in line, like I don't like waiting. I don't like sitting in silence. I have to just run. I have to just get to the next thing. So, to sit here and be like, like you said, all this reframing and remeasuring these things, because I did a show in office building about three, four years ago where I had to fight against my ego and tell people, you can't bring your phone in. And I was like, "Well, then how are people going to see it online?" And I was like, "Well, maybe just the people that come see it, "that's enough." And the other thing is, can you really experience something truly when there's thousands of people coming through there? So, I limited it to groups of seven, and then you went in through the whole show with like a guide. And I implemented like all these things that I learned. And I was part of the show too. And it was the first phase of the "Choe Show." And I had no idea how much that was gonna take out of me, like physically and spirit, like emotionally, 'cause at the end of the day, we had a hundred people a day coming in through the show when we could have had thousands. And I had a staff of like hundreds of people, like this is just financially not viable in a treatment center, right? Like if you went to a treatment center and you have like a few therapists and you have your group, like I had a team of like hundreds of people catering to just you, and some of these people would just be on the floor crying all night. So, I had to find therapists to treat the staff after and... Meaning somebody comes in for this experience and they're exposed to some form of... Yeah, you would fill out an... Some version of what you experienced in treatment, right? Yeah, and I went for years. And I go people aren't gonna take years off to do this. So, I'm gonna try to fit it into a four-hour experience. And it was, I mean, it floored me. It took so much out of me and yet the show cost me a tremendous amount of money. And I could have monetized it. I could have charged people and people would have gladly paid. And after the show, there's a guy who lent me use of the building for free. And he's a billionaire. And when I told him originally what I was gonna use the show for, he's like, "Dave, I liked that you're giving back "and I'm gonna give you a great price." And I was like, "I want you to just give it to me for free." He's like, "That's not how business works." You don't just, I go, "Well, you're rich and I'm rich." And why don't you just, like I just told you, I'm doing this to help people. And he's like, "I like how blunt you are." Okay. So, he let me use that building for free. And at the end of it, his entire family had gone through. And he's like, "When you were explaining it to me, "I didn't get it. "But now that we've gone through "and I've seen it bring my family closer together, "let's take this show on the road. "I got buildings..." He's a real estate guy. "I got buildings in every city in the world." And so my workaholism goes, this is gonna be a hit show, like let's... And I had to sit there, it's almost embarrassing to say, it took like seven people in my life to like sit me down and be like, "Look at how messed up you are right now. "You just put everything into helping and entertaining "and doing all this stuff for these people. "And you have to respect what a psychic toll "that took on you. "And so, we get it that you can like disassociate "and just take this show on the road "for the next couple of years. "But with all the things you learned, "can you be kind to yourself?" 'Cause I don't even know what that means. 'Cause my whole life, I've treated myself the same way. Like if I think about the most verbally and physically abusive girlfriends I've had, that's how I treat myself. I talk down to myself. I say I'm no good. And so, I don't wanna sit in that. So I go, "So me taking a vacation after this "would be kind to myself?" And they're like, "Yeah. "Like you just did a lot of heavy lifting." But in my mind I go, "But it was only 2000 people. "It should have been, you know, 200,000 people." And it's always that, it's like I wanna help everyone. And as long as I'm helping people, I never have to help myself. I can focus on helping everyone, but myself. It just becomes a way to avoid or deflect that piece that's the hardest, which is learning to love yourself. Yeah. And yeah, it was... So, I'm here today and my life's quite simple and this is the way recovery was explained to me. The concept of getting better is very simple. It's not complicated, right? I just conscious contact with your higher power, service work, blocking your phone, like there's action, exercising, eating healthy. These are all like, none of these are like hard concepts to understand, but it's hard. It's simple, but it's very hard. Like it's gonna take me an incredible amount of willpower after this interview to drive home without stopping at Burger King. Like that's just the truth. You want me to give you a ride? You can get me to the next exit and then... I'll escort you out of here. You can do it. Thank you. You just saying that, like you can do it, that's a nice positive step. It's definitely within your power. Yeah, man. I'll let you know if mission accomplished or not. We'll see. Well, we should round this out, but I don't wanna let you go without, maybe a few words for the one who still suffers, the one being the many, because I think there's a lot of people who struggle in silence with some form of compulsive behavior or addiction to substance or process. In some way, I mean, I just feel like this is the problem of our age. Like it's just metastasizing like crazy. So, whether it's gambling or food or phones or sex or shopping or drugs and alcohol, whatever it is, like I feel like almost all of us struggles in one way or the other along this very broad spectrum. And finding a way out is really hard for most people. So, for the one who is still suffering right now, I just wanna tell you, once again, I don't wanna make it about race, but I've been to, you guys have heard me now. I've been to all these treatment facilities, I've seen in seven years of treatment two other Asian people. It's not part of our culture. And the last one almost threw me out 'cause it was my voice speaking to me in the form of another kid. I was at a meeting and a kid came in and he was Korean, and he saw me and I could tell right away, he recognized me. And at the end of the meeting, he's like. "Dave Choe, you're rich. You're famous. "What are doing here?" Like I wasn't... And as he was saying that in my head, I was like, "You're right. What am I doing here? "I'm better than this." And that almost took me out. I was like, "I don't need to be here. "I am better than these people." So, if you're listening now and, no judging, I don't care what video games, porn, the internet, YouTube, binge watching TV, food, whatever your thing is, no judging. The same brain that got you into this mess is not the one that's gonna get you out. You need a hand, and all those tools, all these electronics, all these things that are used for evil and to numb you and distract you, you can use those same tools to... I've been to these places that cost money, but there's so much free services. There's literally a 12-step program for every addiction. And if you think you are any of these things, you just, am I workaholic? Just type in characteristics of a workaholic. And you'll see if you are very quickly. You probably are because we live in a nation, everyone goes, "Hey, America is a nation of immigrants, "right?" But all that means is we're a nation of workaholics because everyone came here for something better and that means work your ass off. So even if you're not a workaholic, your family's workaholic. And all these things, it's not gonna be you on your phone alone, watching porn alone, playing video games alone, it's through connection. And so, reach out, ask for help, tell someone. When you ask anyone in society, "Hey, man, how are you doing?" Most people will give you the answer, Fine, good. Okay. All of which aren't emotions. that's our automatic response. I'm okay. I mean, you could have the worst thing happening in your life today and be like, "I'm fine. I'm okay." So, just, it's okay. You're not okay. And that doesn't mean like you're not gonna be okay forever. You just ask for help. There's support. And as someone, my life today, I can't get through it without this. I'm part of a men's group. I go to 12-step meetings regularly on Zoom, which is the easiest it's ever been. There's kind of a disconnect with the Zoom, but still better than nothing. I have a therapist that I see and it's like there's a part of my addict brain that's like, "You need to go talk to someone once a week for an hour "about..." And I go, "Do you know how much time I spend in casinos "and at strip clubs and like all these places, "like I can't spend one hour a week on myself?" So, there's help out there. It's not hopeless. And I wish for all my friends that killed themselves and for the times in my life where I contemplated suicide and I mean, we live in a society where it's normalized, where it's more okay to kill yourself than to ask for help. That's where we're at now. Someone would rather murder themselves than to go, "Hey, man, I'm really having a tough time "stopping watching television," or whatever your problem is. There's no judging. And we need it. We're not equipped to deal with what's happening in the world. So, the way we get through it is through connection. And all these social media, all these things were invented to connect and we're more disconnected than we've ever been. So, and I guess I'll just, because I'm with you right now, are you suffering today from anything? A little bit. I'm overtired, I'm over committed. I have been working too hard. I won't challenge you to the race then today? But I'll challenge you, I can like predict what I think will happen. But you said not a year and your podcast is growing. The way I heard about it is you worshiped at Sierra Tucson and all these, like they listened to you religiously. So, it's like weird. It's like, "Oh man, "I'm getting bigger and better guests." It's intoxicating. So having a healthy relationship with that. So, I challenge you to take six months off and spend time... That's a heavy challenge. It's a heavy challenge, but I know you're up for it. You've done heavier things. I can guarantee you, you won't lose one fan, one listener. When you come back in six months, you may have more fans, more listeners. It doesn't mean these guys can't keep working. They can recut best doves or whatever, more time focusing on yourself, your family. And it'll change your life. Yeah. I'm not gonna commit to that right now. But what I will commit to is I'm gonna think about that and I'm gonna do that, like honestly, and do an inventory around that. 'Cause I think that's insightful. Thanks, man. Thank you, man. Yeah. How do you feel? I feel calm. I feel less than a little bit. Not a lot just 'cause I have, well, you kind of said, it's like, you're like, I kind of expected you to come in hot. And that's usually what I do. I don't meditate. I like get myself like kind of amped up. It's like, I take podcasting and broadcasting very seriously. I hate when people just show up in (indistinct). And like I was up last night, I had like tons of material and stuff. I barely touched on any of it, but I kind of... My closest friends don't watch anything I do 'cause they go, "You're kind of gross. "'Cause you go into this cartoon character of who you are "and we know the real you." So, but there's that always part of me that's always wanting to be like, "I dunno who Rich has had on here. But when I come in here, "I gotta blow him away "and this has gotta be the best show he ever does." It's a performance. But I mean, my thinking going into it was, he's gonna come in like that and my job is gonna be to figure out how to get him past that. Oh no, I came... But you came in past it already. Well, because the way I learned about you is all people in recovery were like, you gotta listen to this guy, Rich Roll. And like the way you go onto these other shows, do you have to kind of school them on what addiction is and mental health and he's already, you don't have to explain things to him so you can just be yourself and that's like, there's something liberating about that? Like I can just be. But then, there's always... Everyone I interviewed on my show was close... The shortest ones would be three hours, but they would go plus six hours usually. And that's my workaholism of, it took me years for me to have breakthroughs, but I'm tryna get a breakthrough within six hours. So, I'm like, "Why the fuck does this guy run so much? "Why does he..." Like if someone put a gun to my head and said, "You need to run an ultra marathon, "or your entire family is gonna be murdered." I'd be like, "Just murder my family right now." Like that's the same equivalent of, I can't run a 5k. Like my legs start hurting. I go, "Okay, I'm gonna stop because this hurts." So the best, like you said, all the best runners are in recovery and they're covered in tattoos. It's like, what are you running away from? The pain of something, the amazing ability to completely disassociate your mind from your body so that you can, I mean, like for me, when I see that I go, that definitely you gotta be in shape and physical, but it's more mental than physical. It's mental. But just to flip the lens on that, the other side of that coin is that when you put yourself in that position of trying to do something really hard, you meet yourself in a very fundamental way. Like you can't run away from who you are. And your character gets revealed, your weaknesses, your proclivities, like all of the looping in your mind, like you become very present with all of that. And I think it creates a greater awareness of kind of what you're dealing with. So you can deconstruct it and move forward. Like that's the positive aspect of that. Because I got into this at a very difficult time in my life where I was confused about who I was and what I wanted to be. I'd been sober. It's not like I went, I got sober and immediately jumped into this. Like I'd been sober for 10 years before I got into it, but I was reaching another like plateau or kind of inflection point in my growth. And what I found through the process of like really submersing myself in that subculture is I learned a lot about who I am. And I learned what I needed to look at, where I was still, like all of these blind spots that I've been hiding from suddenly like percolate up to the surface. So, those things that you're running away from like come up, right?
It's so scary. But it's an opportunity. And I'm not saying I've overcome all of those things, but I definitely have a greater awareness of them. And I've been able to kind of overcome some of them. Wow. It sounds scary. Yeah. So, you explaining that to me... So, it's like you telling me, I need to take six months off is like me telling you, you need to train for a 50-mile run or something like that. 50 miles. What's a marathon? 26 miles? 26. Fuck. I've never in my life even cared. You have two years to do it. So, if I run a marathon and you give me a two-year time limit in that time or after, you will take six months off? And I'll take six months off, that's a challenge. I can't even imagine, like when anyone explains me like what they need to do to do a marathon, that to me sounds like mental illness. I go, that doesn't sound healthy. Yeah. But that's you putting a cap on your own capabilities? Do you know how much your life will like expand? But like the thing is you think by taking a six-month break, you'll lose stuff, like, oh, I'll lose sponsors, I'll lose my flow. I'll lose like whatever momentum I had. But it's just the way my life has grown from taking a year off is like insane. Like I have more opportunities, because we live in a society where it's moving so quickly, you just kind of wanna say yes to things and go, "Oh, okay, cool." And then you get sort of, or at least I should use I-statements, I get taken for a ride where I'm like, like right now, I'm about to have a conversation about season two, and it's like, there's no part of my brain that's like, "Oh, of course, they offer you season two. "You just take it." Without even considering like, well, is that even something that you should do? So yeah, I guess my feeling when you asked me how I'm feeling right now is, I bring so much weight to every interview and podcast that I do, that I left very, and this is part of my growth, disappointed in every single interview I did on my show. And it's just like, unless I had the level of breakthrough that I did for years... Right. I mean, you're creating a ridiculous expectation for yourself. And also it's like, I know Reign just did your show and he's been asking me to do his podcast, and I'm in a men's group with Reign. I don't think he would mind. And so, we have a shared vocabulary where we talk in shorthand. Like I don't have to explain things and I go, he's like, "Yeah, come on and talk about art." And I'm like, "Agh, so boring. "Like, is that really what you want?" He's like, "Yeah. Where creativity comes from." And I'm like, "Fuck that." I'm like, how about, because I know his father passed away. I go, "How about I play your dad?" And because I know you're, and he's like, "Agh, I don't know if I wanna do that." You're gonna pull a Choe Show on his podcast. That's what I wanna do everywhere I go. And I have to have people constantly explain to me like, that's really heavy. That's really deep. Like am like, "Let's go there." I wanna find that with other people, but it's like the impatience of like, "I want it now." It's like, "Well, why don't you build up to that?" So, I guess it's a unrealistic expectations and then sadness and then shame and then Burger King, and then shame with overeating, then driving home. And then, I'm gonna Google, like what it takes to run a marathon and be like, "That's never gonna..." And then I just sit there and I'm like, "I'm a loser." (Rich laughs) Like how... We're gonna feed you a little bit. (David laughs) I'm gonna escort you out of here. I'm gonna give you a training plan. I'm gonna figure out how I'm gonna take six months off. And in the interim, man, I'm gonna send you a bunch of grace. Thank you, man. Same to you, man. I appreciate you. I appreciate the honesty today, man, and sharing space with me. I really care. You're welcome, man. Thanks. All right, buddy. Peace. Peace. Plans. (David chuckles) (soft music)
I just came here to post this.
Am I out of the loop? Did he just say he's married at 17:41?
"And like hen I'm with my friends, or when I'm with my wife they say..."
https://youtu.be/CvHFWwVZKoI?t=1061
Googled "David Choe, Wife" and found nothing. He wasn't previously married so was this a slip up?
DVDASA has been gone for years so, um do uhh we move to a Choe Show reddit or a Tigerbelly one?
Before watching, do people think Rich Roll would be a good match for Dave? I only know of him but have never actually listened to him. My impression is he's very straightlaced.
I had this podcast on while working out and enjoyed it for the most part. I think it’s getting a lot of unnecessary hate.