(gentle music) I do want you to feel empowered. That is like the most important thing out of these advice videos. I'm always thinking, "How can I communicate to a young person. the power is in you?" (upbeat music) Hey everybody, how you guys doing? Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is the absolutely wonderful, Joanne Molinaro, aka, The Korean Vegan. Joanne is a cookbook author. She's a food blogger. She's a marathon runner. And she's a full-time partner, partner in a corporate law firm, which is absolutely unbelievable to me. And she's got millions of fans across a variety of social media platforms, all obsessed with her wisdom-laced food content. The thing about our audience, isn't just that it's massive. It's that it's super engaged. And there's a reason for that because I think what Joanne is doing is essentially creating a brand new social landscape when it comes to food, cuisine, education, and self-improvement. Her content, particularly on TikTok, is so fresh, so unique, so exquisitely captured, going way beyond just nice photos or ABC recipe prep. And instead is all entwined with incredibly honest, vulnerable, heartfelt stories about life, relationships, grief, family, divorce, surviving abuse, and the immigrant experience. And all of this together, more often than not, will leave you tearing up at the end. I promise you. She is extraordinary. Her first book, "The Korean Vegan Cookbook," which is absolutely breathtaking and truly inverts everything you thought you knew about what a cookbook is and can be. It comes out this week. This is one you're gonna need to pick up. You're gonna wanna pick up. And she's here today. I could not be more excited. So please hit that subscribe button and let's do this. This is me and Joanne Molinaro. Joanne, so nice to meet you. Thank you for coming out to do this. I've been dying to meet you forever. So it's an utter delight to have you sitting across from me. Well, it is a complete honor to be here. And it is not an overstatement for me to say that this is a complete dream come true. I wanted to meet you since I went vegan. So I'm very excited to be here. We should have done this a long time ago. I think there could be no better time than the present moment. Yeah, well, we're here now. It's all very exciting. You've got this book coming out. You're, you know, hitting this stride with all the stuff that you're doing. Personally, you know, I've just been super inspired by the work that you've been doing, the advocacy that you put out there, the message, which is this interesting, unique, totally compelling hybrid of self-empowerment and identity and food and tradition, like all wrapped up into these 60 second videos that inevitably, you know, I know you know this, but people, myself included, like tearing up at the end. It's just an unbelievable gift that you have for storytelling and basically creating an emotional connection between your personal experience and something universal that all of us out here can connect with. Well, I'm really glad that it's connected with you. And although I don't typically like making people cry. I do appreciate- You have a knack for it. Yeah. I think it's a talent.
What is that? What is that? Like, how do I write a script that's 60 seconds long, that has a three act structure and just sticks the landing like Simone Biles? You know, I've had 16 years of training. You were an appellate attorney at one point in your life. And we all live by word count limits. And 60 seconds is similar to that. But I want to make an emotional impact on people because I know that's the best way to be memorable. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There's a narrative out there that you came out of the blue and over the past year, at the beginning of COVID, when you started your TikTok account and you exploded, there's this idea that this just was, you know, erected out of whole cloth, but you've been doing this since 2016, right? You've been at it for a while. You had a recent, you know, spike, (Joanne laughs) but it's not like you're new to this world of sharing your experience publicly. That's correct. I went vegan in 2016 and I started The Korean Vegan at that time. But it isn't what it is today or it wasn't what it is today. At that time, it was really just a food blog, you know, catalog of recipes with "Oh, look, I made this," and pretty pictures. And it wasn't until 2017 that I started to delve more into my personal experiences and start sharing more stories about my family. Yeah. Well, let's walk our way up to that. And perhaps a good place to begin. We'll go into your heritage and your extended family story. But let's start with just the impetus to become vegan in the first place. Ah, well that is a multifaceted story. I think there are some people who they go vegan because they watch one movie or they see one photograph or they get one bad test result from the doctor's office. For me, it was a lot of different factors that went into that decision. And some of it for sure is related to your book, "Finding Ultra." My husband had just picked up a copy of your book and was pretty much determined to go plant-based. And I was very much against it. I was a paleo girl at that time. And I believed like many still do that, being vegan was unhealthy and that it would pretty much lead to all sorts of health disasters. And he encouraged me to read your book. And I did. I read a copy of your book. And I remember being incredibly inspired by your story about swimming and also leaving the practice of law. But then when we got to the part, when you went plant-based I was like, "Oh, okay." You lost me there.
Yeah. I was like, I don't agree with him. But Anthony was very persistent. And we started watching a lot of movies. And we watched, let's see, "Forks Over Knives," We watch "Food, Inc." And we also watched "Cowspiracy." And so then these pillars of reasons for going plant-based started emerging, right? And the first one was through your book, you know, health, right? That was one of them. I wasn't sold on that quite yet. The second pillar-
I didn't quite do my job. (Joanne laughs) You did probably far more than I realized at that time. And then the second pillar was, of course, the environment, which was, you know, raised by "Cowspiracy." That was incredibly compelling to me. But I think sort of the third factor for me was, well, I had this sort of, you know, relationship with Anthony at the time. And I was worried that if I didn't join him in this adventure, that somehow something would become a wedge between us. And I was like, "Well, what's the harm in just trying? like, it's not like I'm getting married to veganism. I can just try it and see what happens." And that was sort of the attitude I had. So I did try it for a couple of weeks. And my father who was in perfect health, I thought, ultimately was diagnosed with prostate cancer. And after watching "Forks Over Knives" and seeing "The China Study" and the impact of red meat on East-Asian men and prostate cancer, I just felt it was too much of a sign to ignore if you will. So all of these things sort of converged for me to just say, "All right, I'm gonna do this. See what happens." And it was a heck of a lot easier than I ever imagined. And the benefits that came with it, completely outweighed any negatives or cons that I thought would adhere to the decision. So you basically made a pretty clean break then? Well, so to be fair, I think we still ate like cheese and butter for like three weeks. And then after that, we're like, "No, we're done." (chuckles) Yeah. So we went like probably vegetarian for about three weeks, and then we went vegan thereafter. Did Anthony do it ahead of you, and then you caught up or did you guys do it in solidarity together? We were not solidarity. I remember distinctly a terribly horrible fight (laughs) we had about it. He was so determined. And I was like, "I don't even think you know what veganism is." (laughs) We had a huge fight about it. So I was probably about two weeks behind him. Right. Right. So I'd rather let go of meat and stay with this guy, then continue to eat meat and jeopardize the relationship? Perfectly. Perfectly paraphrased. But what complicates this is also this cultural tradition amongst Koreans and the relationship to meat that's born out of, you know, a generation or two generations of people that were reared in essentially, you know, war-torn situations where people were starving. So, the idea of letting go of meat is anathema because it's so heavily associated with survival and that becomes woven into the very culture itself. So there's a threat to your heritage by simply making this, seemingly on the surface, you know, now we're in California, like it's just the thing to do, but it's a really loaded thing for you. It was. And you could not have put it better in terms of even just my own family's reaction to my decision to adopt a plant-based diet. But originally I was very scared that I would lose my identity. Yeah. And that's why The Korean Vegan was started 'cause I was so determined not to let that happen. Yeah. Anybody who's visited Seoul or Korea, who's trying to be vegan while visiting can speak to the challenges of that, right? Like meat just finds its way into essentially everything. Meat or fish.
Yeah. It's very difficult or, you know, butter and dairy nowadays, because like me, that sort of was a sign of, oh, you've made it, you've, you know, across to the side of survival, wealth and indulgence. But is that not a modern, you know, kind of incarnation of the culture, right? It wasn't always the case. And like, my mind goes to Jeong Kwan. is that how you say it? I'm sure I'm butchering the pronunciation. Jeong Kwan Sunim.
(Joanne laughs) Yeah. Who I first became familiar with through my friend, Jeff Gordinier, visiting her and writing about her for The New York Times and then Chef's Table and all of that. What I didn't know is that you actually visited with her. I did, it was one of the highlights of our trip in 2019. My sister-in-law's mother is very steeped in the Buddhist community there in Korea. And, you know, for my birthday, she was able to arrange a visit with Jeong Kwan Sunim. And you're right, I mean, Buddhist cuisine, at least in Korea is largely vegetarian or vegan. And so vegan cuisine in Korea has been around quite a bit longer than bakeries and Korean barbecue. Right.
But right now, many people still associate Korean cuisine with, you know, grilled meat or, you know, these beautiful confectioneries. Right. Temple cuisine, right? Isn't that what they call it?
Temple cuisine. Yeah. It's wonderful. We actually were able to visit a number of restaurants, including Michelin starred restaurants that serve temple cuisine in Seoul and around Korea. And Jeong Kwan Sunim herself is a remarkably strong woman. And I was like such a nerd. I was like, so like excited to see her. And I'm like pulling out my phone and I'm like, "Look at my Instagram, I'm The Korean Vegan." And she's like, "Okay." That's cute. We've been doing this for thousands of years. But you know, you go girl.
Yes! It was kind of her thing, but she has such a unique philosophy on veganism. I think in the United States, certainly, and certain other Western countries, veganism has sort of this label, whether you view it as a bad label or as a good label, you're part of a club or you're outside of the club. But for her, she's like, "There's no such thing as vegan or non veganism in my life. The way I eat is merely an extrapolation of my philosophy and how I view the world. I don't think of myself as a vegan. I just think of myself as a human, who's trying to do the least amount of harm as possible." Right. It's rooted in this idea of Ahimsa, how to live your life and produce the least amount of harm. Exactly.
Yeah. Exactly. Which is a really beautiful ethos. It's absolutely beautiful. And, you know, I spent about an hour with her and just having that conversation with her, you know, I can't say it like completely changed everything that I view about veganism, but it really made me sort of understand that veganism is not black and white, that so much of it is on a spectrum. And that it's really counterproductive to try and view it as sort of an us versus them. You're in the club. You're not in the club. And it really should be rooted in, again, this idea, this beautiful idea that she shared with just try to do as little harm as you can while you're here. Right. 'Cause fundamentally behind that is the idea of empathy and compassion, right? Which is kind of the cornerstone or touchdown of all the videos that you make. It is. You know, I was chatting with my therapist a few years ago and she's like, "What is the thing that you value? What do you admire most in other people?" And I said, "My biggest value is compassion." I feel like it is one of the most underrated characteristics in the world. And I feel like people think that compassion is weakness or compassion is crying or too much empathy. And for me, compassion is strength. It's the strongest thing that you could do is to be compassionate. So fundamentally, The Korean Vegan in its current version, is about compassion in every way. Back to this idea of Korea's relationship with cuisine. It seems like on some level, your grandmother understood this, the one who planted the garden in the backyard. And perhaps that was driven by poverty or lack or inaccessibility of other types of foods. But essentially, she was preparing predominantly vegetarian meals when you were a child, right? Absolutely. We had a beautiful garden in our backyard. Wherever we lived, you know, in whatever house we had, the first thing she did was she started planting. So we had, you know, sesame leaves. We had, you know, jalapeno peppers, we had tomatoes, zucchini, we had fruit trees. I mean, it was just this bounty always in our backyard. And it was somewhat driven by this kind of sense of security. You know, there's nothing more fundamentally secure and safe than being able to produce your own food. And that's what she did. She'd done that her whole life, she'd always been a farmer. And so yeah, our table was largely vegetables. Korea is a peninsula, so there's a lot of seafood involved. So sometimes we would have fish. But meat was very rare. It's like a special occasion kind of thing. Yeah. And yet when you go vegan, and you become The Korean Vegan, I can't imagine that went down so well (Joanne chuckles)
with the extended family. So my parents, you know, they just assumed, "Oh, there she goes again, she's dieting. She's just trying to lose weight." And yeah, I've been fluctuating with my weight my whole life. And so that's what they assumed. And when they realized, "Oh, okay, it's not just a diet." Then it was like, "Well, you're running all these marathons. You can't do that. You're just gonna die one day, if you don't eat animal protein. You gotta eat animal protein and milk and things like that." And so they weren't entirely sold on it. A lot of them probably still are not. But they're very polite, very respectful. Yeah. And my mom, I think she understands. But certainly is difficult for them. I think for the larger Korean-American community, I think there are probably a lot who view me as not very Korean or sort of a hack or whatever, you know, cultural appropriation, you name it. I've been accused of everything. Yeah. I mean, that response from your family feels relatively normal. I mean, a lot of people experience that. But what part of that comes from this idea that you're betraying your cultural heritage, you know? I don't think they think that at all. I don't think my family does. Because I mean, if anything, I'm so much more connected to my heritage than I ever was. Before I started The Korean Vegan, I ate Italian-American food, I ate Thai food. It was mostly like takeout, or whatever I could get at a restaurant. Now, I'm calling my mom every three days to be like, "Hey, how do you make (indistinct) again? Or how do I make my pajeon as crispy as yours? And I'm constantly asking her for advice on cooking the food that she thought I hated whole life. Yeah.
So it's the exact opposite. Right? It's interesting. This exploration of food and cuisine has really brought you closer to those roots. And it's been this journey, this exploration into your past that has wed you to it in a way that perhaps never would have happened had you not embarked on this. That's 100% true. And it's incredibly rewarding. And I'm very grateful that I've sort of taken this journey. Explain to me the cultural appropriation piece though, because that's confusing to me as somebody who, you know, is Korean. So, I'm Korean-American. So already, you know, I'm a step sort of away from authentic, if you wanna use that word, or traditional Korean food. And, you know, I just had this experience the other day, I made kimchi fried rice for my TikTok and my sister-in-law who's a native Korean, she was in the kitchen with me and I said, "Hey, try this." You know? And she's like, "Hmm, it's delicious, but it's not traditional Korean." (laughs) You know, this is Korean-American version. And I was like, "All right." But she said, you know, "It was very delicious." And I think, you know, in terms of cultural appropriation, there's this idea that I'm taking liberties and inappropriate liberties with Korean cuisine by making the adjustments that I need to in order to ensure that it's plant-based, whether it's cutting out the meat or, you know, replacing the meat with, you know, some type of meat alternative or something like that. I think there's a fear, and an understandable one to some degree, that I'm somehow whitewashing Korean food. Oh, I see. I see. So in doing that, you're not appropriating you're misappropriating, right? So, lawyer a lawyer. You get it. That's what I always say to people. Like appropriation can actually be okay. Misappropriation is never okay. At least to the people who accused me of it. You're denigrating the purity of the tradition by spinning it in an American, you know? Putting an American flare on it. In an American Vegan way. Yeah. Right. Right. Right.
Sometimes so- How dare you. Yeah. How dare I add kale to my (speaks foreign language) (Joanne laughs)
Yeah. That's so interesting. I mean, that begs the larger question of you now with like millions of people that are following what you're doing, on some level that exposes you to a higher volume of criticism, I would suspect. So how do you navigate the vulnerability that you demonstrate consistently against the trolls that are out there and people who, you know, are of mal-intent who are looking to, you know, take you down or destabilize you. It's a difficult process and I wasn't ready for it. I wasn't prepared for it. I had had my social media for four and a half years, and as, you know, growing steadily, but never like to a point where I felt the negative comments would really bother me. And they weren't really bothering me because the overwhelming reaction was always so positive. And then when my TikTok sort of exploded and my audience grew so exponentially in such a very short period of time, predictably, the negativity also went with it. It arose with it. And I was not emotionally prepared for it. Because as you know, my stories are very personal and, you know, people think, "Oh, it must be so easy for her 'cause she does it all the time." And yes, I'm comfortable to a point, but my vulnerability is still very raw. And when people react so negatively and so personally to my very personal stories, it does hurt me. It hurts me very, I think, understandably, it hurts my feelings. And I'm also always trying to be so intentional with my content that I start to second guess myself. "Oh, did I say something that could be reasonably misinterpreted?" I mean, as a lawyer, again, I'm always trying to be very clear with my communication. I'm always wondering, did I say something wrong? Am I actually, you know, culturally appropriating spaghetti? Like, you know, could I have done better? And that sort of second guessing can be very agonizing for me because I'm trying to make sure that my communication is very clear, it's very positive, and that it isn't something that can be twisted into something negative. Yeah. It's interesting how the lawyer mind comes into play with all of that. It's a strength and a weakness, right? Because as a lawyer you're trained to objectively analyze arguments. So you can take an objective view of these variety of arguments. And for me, I always find myself in this gray area because I can get behind, you know, different sides of the equation, but that does lead to that second guessing, you're like, "I see that person's point," rather than just being an advocate for yourself and kind of doubling down on your self-belief or your convictions. Actually, I think that's a great way of putting it. You know, how when you're supposed to write a memo, you know, the memo is supposed to be a completely objective, factual analysis, you know, legal analysis of a given question. You're not supposed to take a position. You're just supposed to apply the law to the set of facts. And my brain is hardwired to be that way. So I always am looking at both sides of things. And sometimes I feel like, especially, these days, people want you to take a position and I'm always like, "Let me just do the research and let me settle into things before I share my position." Well, my theory on that, because I think that's relatively unique in the legal profession. The lawyers that I used to work with didn't really have that problem. (Joanne laughs) And I think it has to do with your empathetic disposition. The more empathetic you are with that specific skillset, makes it very difficult. And I think my weakness as a lawyer was that I could always see the merit on the other side of the table. Mmm. Mm-hmm. And I would find myself thinking, "I wish I was the lawyer for the other side." (both laugh)
Like, I would have trouble. Like, whereas my colleagues would be like, "No, you're on this side and this is what we're doing." And I'd be like, "Yeah, I don't know, man. I don't think we have such a good case." We have terrible facts. (laughs) I know. Which makes it hard. Well, there was that one video that you made, there was a hater who said some racist bullshit. And you just decimated that person in 60 seconds with a battery of unassailable arguments. But I don't know if it was that video or another video, but your law firm told you, you had to take it down. This is an old, this is actually probably one of my first viral videos. And again, I was very unprepared. I didn't really even know what virality meant- Mm-hmm.
Particularly in TikTok. And it was a 60 second clap back as the kids call it. And I posted it.
Look at you with the lingo.
I know. I'm getting there. (laughs) But yeah, so I posted a fun sort of day in the life of a lawyer in Chicago during quarantine. And it was 60 second video. And it really was designed to show people, "Hey, I am a lawyer at a big law firm, but also have this other life. I run in the morning and I do food blogging at night. You can do it too." That was the whole idea. And of course, another lawyer, another woman lawyer responds to my, what I thought was a very cute video with, "It doesn't look like you work very hard." And that was the wrong comment to make at the time I think I was projected out at like 2,700 hours. I was working around the clock. I had a trial coming up. And I was so taken aback and I didn't really know how to react to it. But I was like, you know what, I'm gonna take this woman down like 60 seconds. That's what I got. I wrote down my rebuttal. And I basically just kind of spit it out. And, you know, I told her, "Look, I'm actually working very hard right now. And this is literally, how can you possibly tell how hard I work within a 60 second video?" And also, why are we so obsessed with working hard all the time? Why must I prove that to you as a good lawyer, that I somehow have to be what breaking my back, working all the time. And I did that and it went viral. And a lot of lawyer blogs picked it up. And I got a call from my CEO being like, "What is this TikTok thing? (laughs) Why are you doing this?" And I was like, "Don't worry, I've already deleted it." I was totally freaked out that I was gonna get fired or something. (laughs) But yeah, I ended up deleting that one. But they've since kind of gotten much more acclimated with the fact that I now have this presence on social media. Yeah. It has to be, I mean, it's a unique situation. But somewhat unsettling to the traditional legal community. I mean, this is a community of people that are by and large analog, like they don't have social media accounts. If they do, they're lurkers, they're not posting. It's very unusual for somebody in this profession to be public facing in that way. And my sense is that by and large, the legal community frowns upon that or is threatened by that. Because, you know, they're trained to look at things from a perspective of liabilities, right? So whether it's a client who sees you doing that, they want their clients to think that all you're doing is thinking about them all the time. And if you're making recipe videos, you're not working on their case and that's a difficult equation to square. It is. And I think I had all of those thoughts as well. When the legal blogs picked up the, you know, story that, you know, lawyer claps back and goes viral. I was so worried that my clients would start viewing me as unprofessional or not spending enough time on their cases or not being serious enough. But surprisingly, I actually received emails from some of my clients saying, "Hey, I saw that great piece about you and the clap back. I think you're amazing." And you know, many of my clients, you know, they follow me on Instagram, they follow me on Facebook, they're sharing my articles, they're sharing my posts to their friends. And so I think what we're seeing is a shift in the workforce in general, and that is applying to the legal industry as well. My clients understand I am not a robot. And that maybe they can actually have a more satisfying relationship with their attorney if they view them as human as well. At least that's been the experience for me. Yeah. That's very cool to hear. I've been very lucky. My clients are amazing. I have amazing clients.
Yeah. I mean, what are your fellow partners and the people in the law firm make of all of this? A lot of them don't know about it. How could they not know?
(Joanne laughs) I mean, you're on like national news and stuff like that. Listen, it's one thing to, "Oh, I have The Korean Vegan food blog." That's one thing. (Joanne laughs)
Phase one, all right? You do that for a couple of years. Then you're on Instagram and that gets kind of big. And then phase three, this TikTok thing is like an unbelievable phenomenon. I suppose, yeah, lawyers are not on TikTok so how would they know? But when that bleeds out into the culture and you're on, you know, X morning show or whatever, they're gonna get a glimpse of, you know? What's actually happening here? A lot of my closer partners have called me and they've congratulated me. I think there's a little bit of envy that lines some of our conversations, but mostly they're very supportive and they're very happy for me. And I think that the younger lawyers, you know, some of the associates or even some of the summer associates who've reached out to me, I always feel so lucky to have conversations with them because many of them have called me or emailed me and say, "I'm so inspired that you're a successful partner, but you also have this other thing that inspires you and that makes you feel whole." And that also makes me feel good. Because I didn't really have that when I was a junior associate, I was told, "Oh, expect to sleep on the floor a couple of nights a year." And you know, work 18 hours a day. And that's your life. That's a cultural shift. You know, when I was a young associate, you know, 10,000 years ago, I mean, it was just all about billable hours and that was it. And you're anonymous. And to kind of stand out in any way was considered, you know, anathema. Like you're a cog in a wheel and we need you to grind. And that's the end of it. It is dangerous. You know, there's certain level of risk of sticking out. I will say, and, you know, my firm is probably more humane than a lot of large law firms. It always has been. I really can't say enough good things about my firm, just because they've been very supportive of me, even as a summer intern. You know, they were always like, "You're a rockstar and we expect amazing things from you." And they did everything they could to make sure I catapulted to success. Right.
And I went through a lot of personal issues. I went through a divorce, it was difficult, it was horrible. And they were with me every step of the way. So, you know, I think like people, law firms can have a range of personalities and I lucked out and I picked a good one. Sorry to interrupt the flow. We'll be right back with more awesome. But I want a snag a moment to talk to you about the importance of nutrition. The thing is, most people I know actually already know how to eat better and aspire to incorporate more whole plants, more fruits, vegetables, seeds, beans, and legumes into their daily routine. Sadly, however, without the kitchen tools and support, very few end up sticking with it. So, because adopting a plant-based diet transformed my life so profoundly, and because I want everybody to experience some version of what I've experienced, we decided to tackle and solve this very common problem. The solution we've devised, I'm proud to say, is The Plantpower Meal Planner. Our affordable, all-in-one digital platform that sets you up for nutrition excellence by providing access to thousands of highly customizable, super delicious and easy to prepare plant-based recipes. Everything integrates with automatic grocery delivery, and you get access to our amazing team of nutrition coaches, seven days a week, and many other features. To learn more and to sign up, visit meals.richroll.com. And right now, for a limited time, we're $10 off in annual membership. When you use the promo code, RRHEALTH at checkout. This is life-changing stuff people for just a $1,70 a week, literally the price of a cup of coffee. Again, that's meals.richroll.com, promo code RRHEALTH for $10 off in annual membership. All right, let's get back to the show. Well, in addition to being this incredible chef and storyteller, you're also, in my mind, I think this is the underrated aspect of your story. You're like a guru of productivity and time management. (Joanne laughs)
Because, I was listening to an interview, you were talking to somebody and this person said like, "Oh wow, you've got these millions of people, and you have like a day job." And I was like, "A day job?" (Joanne laughs)
A day job? Like, do you understand what is entailed in being a partner in a law firm? You've got like, you know, being a partner in a law firm is like three jobs. It's such an all consuming thing. And then on top of that, you know, to churn out, not just the amount of writing that you're doing, but the quality of writing and everything that goes into the production of these videos that you're putting out. Like, I have an appreciation for how much, not just time, the physical production of it all is, but the intentionality that you have to deliver to it. And when you're working out, like how do you even? And you're like running marathons and doing all this other stuff. I feel like I have a busy life. I can't imagine. My life can get a little hectic. But, you know, 16, 17 years of, you know, writing down your time, putting time entries in, makes you a master of productivity. Time sheets.
You remember time sheets. You're probably like never again. [Crosstalk 00:34:26]
I'm having a PTSD moment right now.
I know. I know. I know. But that's what I do every single morning. And so I work in 0.6, you know, six minute blocks, in increments. And my brain is again, very wired to think that way, where can I fit something in? Where can I have two things going on at the same time to save some time, create some efficiencies? So, you know, my husband's always like, "Ah, you and efficiencies." 'Cause I'm always about trying to create a- He's the artist. The concert pianist. He's the one who can afford to, you know, be creative. And I'm like, "Okay, I wanna be creative too, but I have deadlines, I have productivity requirements. And you know, I have clients who are calling me, setting up meetings." And so timing, I think, is one aspect of it. For me, the challenge is much more about the different areas of my brain that are required to be on point at a given time. You know, and COVID has certainly, you know, the silver lining of COVID I guess is I've been at home. So my schedule is in fact, a lot more flexible than it used to be. If I have a 15 minute break between phone calls, I can actually go to my, you know, photo editing computer and maybe edit a couple of things or write down a couple of things. I used to think that that would work. And in the beginning, I think it did. Perhaps because I was so excited by TikTok and the energy of it. But by now I have realized, the amount of energy required to transition from lawyer mode to Korean Vegan mode, it is not easy. I mean, there's a natural resistance. When I'm in the zone, you know, talking to clients, emailing, writing a brief, my brain doesn't wanna go to, "Let's edit this video now." But if you're editing a photo, and you're thinking about a client or a case, can you bill for that? No. (Rich laughs) No, no, no, no. We should do a CLE on ethics right now. I love that. The argument. Yeah. No, I know. You're very much in a certain respect, your father's daughter in that, like this very Type A person you grew up with a very emotionally reserved, I think it's fair to say, taciturn taskmaster. My dad is, he is taciturn. I would say the taskmaster is probably more my mother, but the discipline is certainly my father. My father has sort of extraordinary levels of discipline and he demands that of the people around him. I don't think he does it in any way like, "Oh, I demand more from you." It's just that is his normalcy. Is working in very structured environments and demanding absolute excellence. So when I was growing up, this is very typical Korean-American story. If I had it a report card that had a B plus, it was never good, an A minus even wasn't good enough for my dad. "Why don't you get 100? Why don't you have straight A pluses on all of your report cards?" And, you know, he was also the one every Sunday morning, which was the morning that he had off. You know, he'd bring out a stack of geometry books. And he said, "Joanne it's tutoring time." Oh my God. And, you know, three hours of math tutoring on my Sunday morning. And that was like, non-negotiable for my dad. It was either that or go play tennis. I mean, he's absolutely insane about tennis. And so, you know, "It's time for exercise," so we'd have to go do that. So my dad is very disciplined. But again, I don't know if it's born out of a need to elicit excellent so much as it it's comforting to him to work within a structured environment. But that impulse, that very traditional Korean mindset and sensibility, where does that come from? Like how much of that is implicitly Korean versus the experience of the Korean immigrant trying to make their way in a very difficult America? I think that there are two pieces to it. That's a really good question actually. I certainly believe that the experience of the Korean diaspora weighs into that sort of expectation and that anxiety, I think, that really drives that sort of compulsion of everything needs to be in its box. You know, you always need to be at your best. You need to work the hardest, your work ethic has to be, you know, sky high. I certainly believe that. But I also think that again, as you mentioned, because of these multiple generations of war and poverty, and really just this instinct for survival that sort of kicks in, I think that anxiety also, you know, is always kind of underlying all of these, you know, restrictions on my activities. You know, I wasn't allowed to do theater. I had to do math club. (chuckles) You know, I couldn't sing, I had to play piano. Like all of these things sort of kind of go into that. Wow. Had to be hard. You know, what? It could be a little bit stifling at times, but, you know, in retrospect, my brother and I turned out to be really good kids and we were very happy. And at the end of the day, probably a lot to do with my grandmothers living with us and have having such a large piece of our raising. We were so safe. We were happy. We were safe and we had everything we could have wanted. We were loved immensely. And you know, my parents are amazing. I'm so grateful that I have such lovely parents. Not only are they Korean, they're both from North Korea. A fact that you were not made aware of until you were in college, which is baffling to me. To me too.
Talk a little bit about that, because that story or the multiple stories around your parents getting out of North Korea is pretty amazing. Yeah, so I think it was, I don't know if it was North Korea at the time my mother was born, certainly at the time my father was born, it wasn't North Korea, it was still sort of that gray area, like, "Okay, what's happening between the two pieces of the peninsula?" But yes, they were born in what is now certainly known as North Korea. And you're right, I had no idea until college. In fact, I was just looking at my mother's birth certificate the other day and it still says South Korea. And I'm like, "Oh, Oma, what is this?" And she just laughs. But yeah, I think some of it was because as kids, we just kind of took our parents' stories for granted. I didn't care. I was like, "Well, they're from South Korea. 'Cause I go back to South Korea with them all the time. That must be their home." I never thought to ask, well, could they have been from that region, which is completely typical. Half the country is probably, you know, half South Korea is probably from North Korea. And then, you know, with a little bit of probing, you know, my mom would tell me these stories about escaping and like, "Where are you escaping from?" "Oh, well, you know, I'm North Korean and didn't you know?" "No, I didn't, that's an important fact." That's an interesting. Yeah. (both laugh) I did not know that. That's very interesting to me.
Oh my God. And my father similarly has a lot of stories from that time in his life. Particularly about his own father and his role during that conflict and the like. And you know, and I soon learned, "Oh, you're also from what is now known as North Korea. I had no idea." And unfortunately at that time, you know, in college, I wasn't really educated on kind of what that meant. All I knew was what I was hearing on the news. Oh, North Korea is the axis of evil. You know, North Korea is the butt of all these jokes and it's a bad thing to be from North Korea. So I was immediately embarrassed to discover my heritage, which is now embarrassing to me. The story of your mom immigrating south on the back of your grandmother. Can you tell that story? Yeah. So that is probably one of the earliest stories my mom ever shared with me. And we were eating like these sweet potatoes. She eats sweet potatoes every day. And she just like microwaves them or sticks them in the microwave oven and eats them. And she's like, "This is my favorite food." I'm like, "Why is this your favorite food?" And she was like, "Well, when we were refugees, this is what we would eat." She said she would dig through the soil, you know, when everybody else was asleep and she would look for whatever rotten sweet potatoes were left in the soil. I was like, "Refugees? Why were you refugees? Where were you refugees from?"
Burying the lead. (Joanne laughs) What is that about? In the context of the story about sweet potatoes. Exactly. And she was like, "Oh, well, you know, I was born in North Korea." Oh, okay. Tell me about this, you know, refugee situation. And she said, "Oh, I love this story. This is my favorite story." She said, "Your grandma almost killed me." And I was like, "What?" And I was like, "What are you talking about?" "Oh yeah. The time your grandma almost murdered me." And I was like, "Okay." Saying it as if you already knew the story. Yeah. We've been talking about this the whole time. Oh, this is, I think, typical of parents, right? All over. And so she then explained to me that when they were escaping North Korea during the Korean War, they only had what they could take with them. This is like what you see in the movies. They grabbed whatever they could grab. And they had two children, my mom and her older sister at the time. And they had to walk to the Yellow Sea because they were told that there was a boat that would take them to safety. And in my mind, I'm literally seeing all these old movies, you know, where you see war torn countries and people with, you know, sacks of food and a little bit of water and their babies, you know, swaddled to them. And they're walking endless amounts and they finally get somewhere. And they get to this boat. And by that time, my mother who was, I think one and a half year old, she was starving to death. They had no food. They had no water. And I subsequently learned that it took them two weeks to get to the Yellow Sea. So if you can imagine they had run out of the food and water, you know, long before. And my mom was screaming. Apparently just screaming and screaming and screaming. And you know, you have children. I can't even imagine what my grandparents must've been thinking and feeling watching their baby girl, literally dying before their eyes. And they had no idea when they were going to get food or water again, if they were ever going to get to safety. So they get on this ship. My mom is screaming and crying for any food, any water. And my grandfather sort of looks to my grandmother and says, "I think we have to do something about Sonny." That's what my mom calls herself. Her Korean name is (indistinct) right? And my grandmother was like, "No, I don't know what you're thinking or what you're suggesting, but no. Like put it out of your head." But my grandfather kept pleading with her. "Look, our baby daughter is an agony. We have to do something. We can't just let her scream to death." And ultimately what he was saying was, we need to throw her in the water, throw her into the sea and drown her. And my grandmother at first was like, "Nope, not happening, not my daughter." But eventually, you know, again, just watching her daughter scream and cry. She ultimately decided, "Okay, maybe that is the right decision." And I'm sure many, many, many parents during that time were grappling with the same sort of dilemma. So they decided to go to the uppermost deck of the ship, where there were not a lot of people. And their plan was to essentially slip my mother overboard and hopefully she would drown. And so they're kind of at the edge of the ship, like on the railing and you know, everyone's crying at that point, right? And apparently, a couple of American GIs who were also on the ship, because it was a U.S. Naval ship. They sort of saw, "Okay, what's going on over there?" You know, family crying, their eyeballs out and they're, you know, close to the edge of the ship there. So they approached my grandparents and of course my grandparents didn't speak any English, but you know, they were trying to understand what's going on. Can we help you? What's happening? And ultimately they realized what was happening was that my mother was starving and she needed food. And so he reached into his pocket and pulled out a chocolate bar and put it into my mom's hand. And my mom says that is what saved her life. Mm-hmm. Such an incredible story. It is. It's a very heartwarming, wonderful sort of scary story. Yeah. But I'm thinking with GIs on that ship, there was no food though. Yeah, so there are a lot of holes when I asked my mom, "I'm like, so what about your older sister? Like, what was she doing during this time?" Or, you know, how could you think that there would be no food? And, you know, I think, obviously she was one and a half year old at the time too. So it's not like she remembers any of this. This is all kind of told to her from her parents. But I think the idea was, look, it wasn't like there was a buffet table that, you know, "Hey everyone, refugees, here's a whole mess of food for you to eat." I don't think they had any idea what was happening. They were sort of shuttled on board. They didn't really know where it was gonna end up. They had no idea whether there would be food waiting for them or not. You know, they didn't know whether they were gonna end up in South Korea or not. And they couldn't communicate. Exactly language barriers can be deadly in some situations. And it nearly was in this case. And I mean, thank goodness that they caught them in time because they were literally about to slip her overboard from what I understand. Wow! It's such a crazy story. And your dad's version of that story is, you know, equally amazing. With his parents and all that.
It is very compelling.
Like, it's just crazy. It is. And again, it was told over food. And it was like one of those like random situations, my husband and I were eating at this restaurant. I had invited my dad. It was vegan japchae. He's sitting there like cleaning his plate and we're just like eating. And he's like, "You know, about that time, you know, grandma saved my life through swamp water?" (Rich laughs)
I'm like, "What?" And my husband and I are like, "What are you talking about? Swamp water?" "You know, yeah. Your grandma saved life with my swamp water." And we're like, "Okay, daddy. Why don't you just tell us what you're talking about?" And yeah, it was again, a situation where my grandmother, she was acting as a single mom at the time because my grandfather had already fled to South Korea 'cause he had worked for the Japanese police force and was there for, you know, had a target on his back. Right. They gotta get out. He needed to get out. And ultimately she did as well. And you know, there were communist soldiers kind of guarding the 38th Parallel to make sure that everybody who was there stayed there. That was very important for them at the time. But my grandmother needed to get to her husband. And she had a newborn infant and he too was starving and was very thirsty, and wouldn't stop crying. It's very hard to sneak past the communist soldiers when your baby is crying his eyeballs out. So she went over to this dirty rice patty water as my dad called it, the swamp water, and like cupped it in her hands and brought it to his mouth until he finally stopped crying. And then she like sank all the way down with her baby in her arms until just their heads were, you know, above the water. And they just slipped past the soldiers and slipped past the 38th Parallel. And then, according to my dad, she spent much of the journey on foot and encountered a tiger in the mountains before finally meeting up with her husband. And he had had another tiger encounter prior to that, right?
Yes. Like that's a recurring theme in his myth. It is. It is. And I love it. In his hero's journey. (both laugh)
It is. So when my grandfather, when he was a little boy, little boy in our point of view, he was 13. But by that point, I guess he was considered a man. He was 13 years old and he ran away from his home, which was in plushy, South Korea, at the time. He came from a fairly wealthy family. And his father wanted him to marry somebody. And he was like, "No, I don't want to marry this girl. I don't know. And oh, by the way, I think you're kind of a jerk." And so he decided to run away from home at 13. And he went to what is now known as North Korea. And he had to cut through the mountains to do that. And he did it largely on foot. And according to legend, he also encountered a tiger in the mountains. Right. That's so wild. It is. It is very wild.
It's crazy. Yeah. And my mom, when she was pregnant with my brother had a dream about a tiger. And that's how she knew she was pregnant. Wow! It's so funny to think about, you know, your dad being this very quiet man, but then suddenly breaking out like just an insane story like that. It's very typical of my dad. His brain works a little differently, I think. And you know, he loves his mother. I mean, that's like the big thing that I always get from my dad is how much he loved his mother and I think it stems from even just that, you know, origin story of how she rescued him. Yeah. It's so heavy to think about the toil and the difficulty of what that journey must have been like. You know, it's almost impossible that they made their way to the United States. And now here you are, you know, the succeeding generation to all of that. And the more I think about that, the more I think about all the people that didn't make it across the border. And there's some version of you who's living in North Korea right now. And, you know, the weight of that is, you know, really difficult to grapple with. But I think, one of the reasons why I wanted you to share those stories is it gives everything that you do that adequate ballast, like there's a gravitas to it. So in this three act structure of The Korean Vegan with food blogger becomes, you know, when Trump gets elected, you have this impetus to start speaking about, you know, things that are going on in current events. Your story lends so much weight to the discussion about build the wall or, you know, kids in cages. And how are we thinking about, and talking about not just immigration, but the immigrant experience and everything that, you know, all the other issues that are kind of tangential to that. I think my parents' story is so fundamental to who they are. And as a result, who I am. Like, I can't breathe a word without embedding their stories in each of my words. And so when I view things like news stories about we're gonna build a wall, or when I see children in cages, I think about my mom saying we were refugees and I was digging for sweet potatoes. Like, how can I not think about that? And, you know, when I think about, you know people swarming the Capitol, I have to think about my dad and his sort of beautiful belief in democracy and what that means and how much he dreamt about coming to the United States, because he believed in that beautiful dream. So I can't like not think about those things when I see this stuff on the news. And so, yeah, I get emotional. I cry when I see this stuff. Because I think about what it means to me as who I am, as Joanne, as the daughter of my parents. Hmm. But then there's the decision to figure out a way to share that in a manner that will connect with people. It's one thing to, you know, go on Twitter and shout and scream about how this is wrong, or this person is racist. Or I don't like what, you know, this leader is doing. Versus telling a story that's based on your own personal experience, that engenders that emotional connection, a sense of empathy. And in so doing, I think shifts the lens on how people are approaching issues like this. Like, I think it's really powerful. Like we need all kinds of activism and all voices are important in that regard, but I find personally the most powerful voice is that person who's talented and gifted enough to tell, you know, a really great story that allows people to think about things just a little bit differently. I think that's the key. Just a little bit differently. I'm not asking for a 180 turn. I'm not even asking for a 45 degree angle. I'm literally asking for a sliver because that's the sliver that I can then get into and maybe create a larger wedge of sort of thinking and broadening. And, you know, I was thinking about this while I was actually reading your book this morning. And I was like, you know, every time he says something I'm like immediately invited to be like, "How do I relate to that?" And that's actually what I wanted to do with The Korean Vegan, is to create stories where a person is invited to relate to it. And then to reciprocate my vulnerability. I'm sitting there putting myself out there. And really what it is, is an invitation for them to put themselves out there to me. And that way sort of build this trust that allows them to broaden their perspective. Again, just a little bit. Yeah. My friend Brogan calls it, moving fours to threes. Oh, yeah! (laughs) Which I think is great, right? That's a great way of putting it. In the spectrum of 10 or whatever, or five to one, you know, being a spectrum of perspective or belief. Like, he's like, "Richie move fours to threes." And I was like, "I'll take that." You know?
Exactly. I think you're moving fours to twos though. Or maybe fours to one. 'Cause I don't know.
That's very flattering, but I'll settle for three, two. I think that's monumental. I love that one story that you've told about, I think it's a woman in Arkansas who is in law enforcement that wrote you in response to one of your videos. Yeah. That is very memorable to me. I don't know if she was from Arkansas or Alabama somewhere in that region.
Alabama yeah. It was in A state.
Yeah, it was in A state. Like, I had struggled with body dysmorphia and, you know, disordered eating and just kind of all of that. And so much of my story is kind of wrapped around my struggle with that. And she wrote me kind of out of the blue she's like, "I never messaged people." And she says, "I'm a white woman from Alabama, Arkansas-" The A state.
From the A state. "I work in law enforcement and there's literally no reason for you and I to have anything in common, but I want you to know that I get you." And that was so powerful to me. Now, she didn't say, and next I'm going to vote for Joe Biden or anything like that. She wasn't saying any of those things, but she didn't need to. The fact that she felt comfortable enough to share that little tiny nugget with me meant that I had made a connection. And there's so much that can be built upon that connection with time with patients and with compassion. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And in the stories that you tell, it's not just, I mean, the kind of Korean diaspora and the immigrant experience and your own personal relationship with your parents and your grandparents, is a huge part of what you do. But it's also, as you just mentioned, your struggles with disordered eating, your struggles with mental health and self harm, your divorce, you know, emerging out of an abusive relationship, you know, how do you, deal with boundaries. I mean, it's really this primer on self-help and self-improvement with timeless wisdom as you're like preparing some insane meal. (Joanne laughs)
I'm like, "I could never make that, but that looks really good. Maybe I'll try that." What is your process when you sit down to think about, here's what I wanna share, are you like just taking notes all the time? Like I'm interested in the nuts and bolts of how you even put these things together. A lot of it starts with running. You know, I run first thing in the morning. Usually sometimes I'll have breakfast, sometimes I'll just go out and run depending on how long it is. And that's my me time. That's my thinking time. That's my, "What am I doing today?" Time. And in a lot of times I'm listening to you know, podcasts like yours or books, but I try to save about 10 to 15 minutes of that run to just kind of think. And so a lot of times I'm thinking about what is my TikTok post gonna be today? What am I gonna talk about today? What am I moved to talk about today? And sometimes it's to answer a question, to give advice, I get a lot of questions like, "Hey, I'm going through this, can you give me advice?" And sometimes it's, "Oh, I wanna tell this story about my grandma and my graduation," or something like that. So I usually have a pretty good idea by the end of my run. Okay, I'm gonna talk about X and I'm going to make Y while talking about X. And then I shoot the video for the food. 'Cause that is pretty complicated. And so that takes up like the biggest chunk of my time is preparing the food, shooting it, getting all my cameras together and the like." And then after I edit that video, which is another chunk of time, I then finally get a chance to sit down and write what it is that I'm actually going to share. So I have a nugget. So you write after you do the food. That's interesting. I would have thought the other way around. A lot of people think that, and maybe I should do it that way. I don't know. (laughs)
I don't know. No, I think you need to do it the way that you're doing it. Yeah, so I usually right after the food, because, you know, and I don't wanna give you too much of a glance into what goes into it, but I mean, I guess I have nothing to hide. It doesn't take me that long.
Mm-hmm. Sometimes it takes me only 15 minutes to write what I'm gonna write. And of all the things that I'm doing, it's the least complicated and it takes the least amount of time. So I always save it for the last thing, because all the other things are really complicated and take time. How many cameras are you using? So I use three cameras, and sometimes I'll also use my phone. So it can be up to four cameras depending on, largely the kind of mood I'm in, you know? And you doing all of this yourself? Yes, it is currently a one-woman show. It is very, I don't think that's sustainable. (laughs) That's very intense. I have sustainability concerns about this whole thing. I'm gonna get into that a little bit more in a minute. But, (coughs) excuse me. Mm-hmm. I think that, I'm sure a lot of people say to you, like, "Why TikTok? Like isn't, TikTok where like just teenagers are dancing all the time?" My sense of one of the reasons why this has been so successful on TikTok, I mean, you could have just been putting these up on Instagram or YouTube-
Mm-hmm. And I'm sure they would have been very successful. But there is a timing aspect of this, in that, TikTok was reaching an inflection point. It's traditionally populated by much younger people. It is, you know, associated with kids dancing and, you know, the hype house or whatever all that kind of craziness is, but it felt like a moment in which it was ready for the next iteration of what's possible. Mm-hmm. At a time when there was so much onboarding going on and an algorithm that is really excellent at delivering to people what they want. So if you're getting a little bit of attention, that algorithm knows how to feed that up to a lot of people. So with that, and with you coming to the platform and really delivering on a level that the platform hadn't seen, it was the perfect storm of ingredients that led to, you know, this astronomical, like rise that you experienced. I definitely think timing had a lot to do with it, not just for TikTok, but for me personally as well. I was going through what everyone was going through, the pandemic. And I didn't know what else to do to sort of squelch the anxiety that we were all feeling. I mean, for me, I was like, "Oh my God, I'm gonna lose my job. I'm gonna lose my job." Like, that's what I was so afraid of, right? I think a lot of people were afraid of that at that time. And I started my TikTok largely as a consumer. I just wanted to watch silly videos that would take my mind off of the stress of my job. As was everybody else at the same time. Absolutely. Exactly. That's why you saw what TikTok had to go through during that summer. I mean, there was a lot of political upheaval that it unfortunately had to go through with it being canceled like every six weeks, or I think, "It's gonna be banned tomorrow. Make sure you save all your videos." So there was that, but there was just this crazy onboarding as consumers or creators, right? People would join just to watch and then be inspired by something they see and then decide, "Well, now I wanna create content as well." That's exactly what happened to me. I was inspired by so many of the things that I was seeing. Politically, from an activism standpoint, and as just a content creator, I wanted to create beautiful things. And that's ultimately why I decided to start throwing out content there. Right.
Was not pretty in the beginning though, for sure. No, but it kind of went crazy viral from the get-go didn't it? Yes. So I posted like a potato dish. That was very not pretty. It was like with my really crappy phone and you can hear Anthony giving a piano lesson in the background. And I didn't know how to use the app. So you'll see like all of my captions are like, you know, overlapping on top of one another. It was really not well done. But, it went viral. It has over, I think 1.6 million views. And a lot of people really liked it. And that's how TikTok gets ya, you know? They're like, "Here's a little taste of what it's like to go viral." And if you can ride that wave, I mean, it really can sort of shoot you up to, you know, superstardom on TikTok. Mm-hmm. How much time have you spent with your lawyer mind, like trying to dissect that and be strategic versus, 'cause there's a tension between, you know, one of the reasons I suspect that that original video went viral is not in spite of, you know, Anthony playing piano in the background, but in large part, because of that, like there's a realness, there's an authenticity to it. That rawness, that honesty is what people respond to. And as you become more professional with it, and you've got three cameras and the whole thing going on, you have to be mindful of maintaining the heart and integrity of what it is you're doing. Otherwise, it doesn't matter how pretty it looks because it's the honesty that is keeping people connected to you. I think that, again, as a lawyer, I automatically tend to take as much data as I have available to me and try and crunch it and come up with solutions and conclusions to my next decision. That's like second nature, right?
Right. And the algorithm, as you put it, is a big black box. I probably follow multiple TikTok accounts that purport to understand the algorithm or hack the algorithm. And in the very beginning, I think I was driven very much by a need to maximize what I had, this feeling of FOMO, right? "Oh God, I gotta do another viral video. You know, I can't let up on the accelerator." And that was really my thinking. And as a result of that, I probably spent way too much time trying to really understand, "Okay, well, if I tweak just this or if I post it this exact time, or if I, you know, make sure that my phone is angled this way, you know, maybe I can get more views." And ultimately, I think I got to a point where I said, "You know what? My content is who I am. It's an extrapolation of who I am. And other people will like it, or they won't like it. And I can't spend too much time trying to adjust my person to make sure that I'm liked by the most number of people." You have to be happy with yourself first, right? And it's the same thing with my content. I was also given the sort of, you know, cautionary warning of, "Well, if you stop using your phone and you replace it with a DSLR, you know, it might be too professional for the TikTok audience." And I'm like, "I get that, but that's what I want. I want it to be beautiful. I want it to be as beautiful as possible." And a lot of people, they would show up on my TikTok and be like, "Oh, I didn't know I was paying for premier TikTok experience." (chuckles) You know? And I liked that. I like creating the most beautiful thing that I can create. And it's constantly pushing me to create something even more beautiful, more revealing, more engaging. How do I make this even more compelling? And so I like that sort of challenge. But it's not something that I'm as obsessed with as I was in the beginning. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. As long as you maintain the heart at the center of it. Of course you want it to be beautiful, but it can never come at the cost of that. Totally. And I think that's what my voiceovers do, you know? Is okay, whatever you're seeing, which is, you know, delicious food and really pretty, you know, bulky and all that stuff. You're always getting my voice, and you're always getting my story and what I'm talking about. And now with, you know, sort of my Korean ante videos, now they're getting literally me, I'm sitting there trying to feed you food. Right. So in this three act structure that I keep coming back to, (Joanne laughs)
food blogger then sort of advocate activist in the second stage. And then, you know, with the tick talk evolution that you're currently in, another piece of that is not just giving voice to the Korean-American experience, but also this self-help, you know, sort of experience-based life advice, aspect of it?
Mm-hmm. That, correct me if I'm wrong, feels, or I understand, is in some part inspired by you having a nephew, right? Yes. And so I'm watching these videos and I'm thinking, oh, she's just talking to her nephew. Like that's who she has in mind when she's speaking to the camera, she's really addressing him personally. Yep. Yep. So I'm addressing the 13 year old, 16 year old, 19 year old, 25 year old version of my nephew, Liam. My younger brother, who's probably one of my most favorite persons, only surpassed by his son, Liam. (laughs) He is three years old right now. And he is just so fun and so talkative and filled with laughter and joy. And I started thinking, "Man, I can't wait till he's old enough where we can have these sort of really tough love conversations about, oh, you know, "Gomo, this girl doesn't like me and I don't know what to do about it." Or "Gomo, this girl dumped me and I'm so sad," or, you know, "Gomo, I didn't get into the college I wanted to." And I was like, "Oh, I can't wait for these conversations. And I know exactly what I would say if he were sitting in front of me." Right.
So yeah, that first one was very much inspired by, "Okay, I can see Liam, he's sitting across the dining table from me and I'm cutting up a pear for him, just like my mom used to do when I was sad. And this is what I would tell him." Right. My favorite one is the one of you telling the story about the boy who broke up with you in elementary school, (Joanne laughs) and then it ends with you in the business suit, like being a bad-ass. Yeah. You know? You know, I was just trying to do something fun. Like, hey, you know, like all tongue in cheek, like obviously, like I don't hold a grudge against this kid, (Rich laughs)
you know? Like he was 13 years old.
Yeah. But it was also again, designed to show people who may not have had to deal with racism before, how hurtful it can be. And yeah, it's absolutely one of those memories that I'll never forget because he called me all those horrible names. And I was like, "I thought we were gonna be boyfriend and girlfriend. And now you're calling me these horrible names." Yeah. What's cool about the Liam story is that, because you're his aunt and not his mother, you probably will be able to have those conversations. Like the mom or the dad always thinks like, "Oh, I can't wait for those types of exchanges, but the kids never (speaker voice drowned with laugher) (both laugh)
Yeah. You know, they can't hear it. They can't always hear it from the parent, you know? Well, I think that was kind of the idea too, is I can be a little bit more free about what I would say because I am the cool aunt, as opposed to, you know, the cuddly mom, I'm never gonna be the cuddly aunt. And you know, if you know a little bit about Korean culture, Gomo is your father's sister and emo is your mother's sister. And your emo is again, very cuddly, sweet. You know, like the sweet. And gomo is oftentimes a little bit more reserved, a little bit aloof, but way cooler. And that was sort of the persona that I'm trying to like, you know, put across, which is, "Look, I'm not gonna tell you what you wanna hear. I'm not gonna tell you, 'Oh, don't worry. She'll like you in five days, don't worry. Just keep trying.' Or 'It's okay, that college was dumb and you didn't wanna go there anyway.' I'm not gonna give you that advice. But, I do want you to feel empowered." That is like the most important thing out of these advice videos. I'm always thinking, "How can I communicate to a young person, the power is in you? You don't need to look to me. You don't need to look to everyone around you, it's inside of you." Right. And exposing the myths or the lies behind a lot of self-help tropes. Like the one where you're like, "You know, that thing where they tell you, you know, whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger." And you're like, "Fuck that." (Joanne laughs)
Yow know like the knife and all of that. It's like truth talk. Yes. Exactly. With The Korean Vegan. That's exactly right.
It's all going down. So I never realized like that's what I would incorporate into The Korean Vegan. It's again, completely inspired by Liam. Right. That's funny. Well, let's talk about Korean food. Most Americans' relationship with Korean food begins and ends with Korean barbecue and maybe kimchi. And that's basically it. So where does one begin in their exploration of what they can learn and enjoy from Korean cuisine? I think flavor is a good place to start with any cuisine. And that's certainly the case with Korean cuisine. Think less about proteins or the produce, like those kinds of hardcore ingredients. And think more about the sauces and the spices, you know, a lot like Indian cuisine. You know, you think about all the hundreds of different spices that go into creating these sort of insane flavors in each bite. And I like to think of Korean food in that way too. We have so many different flavors that are sort of working together to create, you know, that Korean food experience. And so when you think about, for example, Korean barbecue, whether it's, you know, flank steak or ribs or whatever, you know, the thing that you see being grilled at the Korean barbecue restaurant. Well, one of the first thing I did was create a Korean barbecue sauce. 'Cause that's the flavor, right? I mean really who cares about what it's on? It's the flavor that makes it so delicious. So I took my mom's Korean barbecue sauce and it was like, "Oh, I'm just gonna put this on everything." Tofu, vegetables, noodles, whatever. And then you don't even realize that it doesn't have the meat in it. Exactly, exactly.
Yeah. I think, again, for a lot of different reasons, people think that you need to have meat in order for the food to be satisfying, filling, healthy, whatever you wanna call it. And for me, all of those sort of stereotypes or myths completely went away when I started veganizing all of my favorite foods. Yeah. Well in your amazing cookbook, congratulations, by the way. (chuckles) Thanks.
We're recording this so far in advance of the book coming out, but it's gonna come out when the book comes out. So my experience with the book is not tactile. It's digital. Yes. (laughs)
Like I got a PDF of it, so I haven't had the full experience, but it's really quite something to behold. It's unbelievably beautiful. Aw, thank you.
Like you did an amazing job. This book is gonna be massive. I think like in April it was like the number one, like new newly to be released books on Amazon or something like that,
Yeah. Like that far in advance of the book coming out speaks to, you know, it's not just that you have a large audience, you have this unbelievably engaged audience that, you know, clearly adores you and is gonna follow you wherever you take them. And the fact that the book would, you know, make a statement that early on, I think you're off to what is gonna be a very successful. It was very encouraging. Yeah. It was very encouraging. But as you said, it was very heartwarming. I had no idea that my community felt that way about me. And since that moment, I have repeatedly told myself that I cannot take them for granted. I'm very lucky with The Korean Vegan community. Yeah. You're very engaged with the engagement though as well. Like it's not just, "Oh, I have a bunch of followers and I'm a broadcaster." Like you really, you know, participate in this. Like you really cultivate that sense of connection that you've developed with all of these people. Well, it's a two-way street. I mean, it's not just about followers, right? It's about, I put myself out there. And particularly during the pandemic, we all were suffering from isolation and feeling alone. And when I put myself out there and somebody says, "Hey, I get that. It resonates with me. Let me tell you a little bit about my mom or let me tell you a little bit about, you know, my struggle with an eating disorder." I am then immediately told you're not alone. And I cannot overstate the value of being told that by people all over the world. And so this sense of community is as rewarding to me as anything I put out there for my followers. Yeah. That's beautiful. I can learn a lot from that I think. Well, you have an incredible community too. Yeah, but I'm not as engaged with that community as I think I could be and should be. Like, in kind of looking at how you interact online. I think there's a lot to be learned for myself. It's wonderful. There's a cost to it, which I'm sure you're aware of, you know. But at this point my followers are always there. They're ready to support me. They've got my back. I mean, they will take down anyone who's gonna be mean to me. I love them. I love that. The Korean Vegan Army. I mean, they are very, especially on TikTok. I mean, they're very protective of me and I love that. That's beautiful.
Mm-hmm. But I brought up the cookbook, not only to say nice things about it, deservedly, nice things about it. But when you were talking about how important the sauces are, I noticed in the book, like often cookbooks will have a sauces section, but this is a huge part. Like the whole first part of the book is about, and it goes on for a long time and you get like, "Oh, this is like the most important thing. If you can master these sauces, then you're well, on your way towards mastering this type of cuisine." Absolutely. I was actually thinking like my next cookbook is just gonna be called "Chung," which means sauce in Korean. And it'll just be like a bunch of sauces. And then all the recipes will be, you know, from these sauces. 'Cause, I believe, you know, the sauces and the flavors really are sort of the fundamental building blocks of Korean cuisine. And if you actually look at temple cuisine, so the kind of food that Jeong Kwan Sunim makes, she always has like 15 tiny little bowls of all these different sauces. And that's how she creates these intensely beautiful and sort of mind-blowing flavors to the humble mushroom or to the humble Lotus root or, you know, bok choy or something like that. And so I spent a lot of time sort of building out the pantry, "Okay, you gotta have, you know, (indistinct) you have to have kanjang and oh, by the way, there are multiple different kinds of those here, you know, four different kinds that you need to be aware of." And then we also have the basic section, which is, "And then here are the sauces that I created out of those." And you'll see that they sort of are like throughout the entire cookbook, they're always referring back to sort of these building blocks. And I think that's always a good place to start. Again, flavors. It's not intimidating, really easy to make a sauce. And then it's really easy to build from that sauce. Grandma aside, how did you learn how to do this? You didn't go to culinary school. No. Were you always this passionate about cooking? It's interesting how, you know, you go vegan, you start The Korean Vegan, but in this very self-taught DIY way, you've mastered this thing. Like what lit you up about getting back into the kitchen and figuring all this stuff out? So I wasn't always into cooking. I've had some pretty disastrous moments in the kitchen before I went vegan. Raw chicken was a big thing for me. (chuckles) I always ended up not cooking things correctly. So maybe that was another good reason I went vegan and no more raw meat to deal with, right? You don't have to worry about salmonella.
No salmonella issues, right? I, you know, watch the Food Network a lot in college, not really to inspire me to cook, but just because it was on and it was less stressful than the news, you know? And I liked it. I think a lot of my basics, I learned from people like Rachael Ray on "30 Minute Meals" and things like that, or other people on the Food Network. I think when YouTube became really big, you know, I'm sitting there on the treadmill and watching how to bake a cake, you know, or how to make cookies and things like that. So, so much of cooking is really just like rudimentary fundamentals, like, okay, you know how to get oil hot. You know, why do you add salt to water? You know, things like this, they're really small little things that you sort of build up over time by watching other people do it. Now, when I went vegan, the option of eating out was very limited. You know, at the time, it was like five and a half years ago, Chicago still wasn't like this great, you know, capital of vegan cuisine. It's still isn't, but it's gotten a lot better. And so we had to cook our food in order to not starve basically, or not eat at the same restaurant every single day. And so again, I didn't want to eat, you know, just American food, I wanted to eat Korean food. So a lot of what I ended up doing was, you know, doing internet research, you know, figuring out, okay, what are the flavors and the sauces that I need to now become very acclimated with, calling my mom a lot, calling my aunts a lot. And being like, "Oh, you know, (indistinct) I love your Gamja Jorim, how do you make it without this?" (Joanne chuckles)
You know? Or, you know, talking through things like that with her. So there's a lot of different sources, but mostly it's just practice. You just keep doing it until it tastes better and better and better.
Yeah. Yeah. And again, that idea that it brings you back to your heritage and your family in the process of doing it. And when you look at the cookbook, the spine that runs through, the real foundation of the whole book is this evolving love letter to your extended family and telling these amazing stories with these crazy pictures (Joanne laughs)
from way back. So you get a dose of the recipes and then it's like, boom, another story, another story kind of peppered throughout the book. So I wanted to make sure that storytelling was a very big component of whatever my first writing was, whether it was a cookbook or- Oh, you couldn't do a cookbook and not do The Korean Vegan thing and tell amazing stories. Yeah. And I knew that. But there was a little bit of like hesitancy on the part of, you know, the editors. It was a totally different thing. And they were like, "Well, why don't we just make it a bunch of recipes and one big essay?" And I was like, "Oh, really? Like, that's not what I had in mind." But at the time I was like, "You know what? You guys are the experts. You tell me what will make my book a success. And if you're telling me that we need to cut out the stories and do more recipes and replace it with one big essay, like I'll do that." And then I signed up for TikTok. And all of a sudden my stories were getting a lot of play. And then they're like, "Do more of that." Yeah. They're like, "Actually remember the one that we cut? Put it back in?
Yeah. And then I got- 'Cause your book deal came way before TikTok, right? It did. It came like almost two years before TikTok. Wow!
Yeah. Mm-hmm. So you've been working on this book for a long time. Yes, this is what happens when you're a full-time lawyer and a cookbook writer, your editor becomes very nice and understanding and patient. To a point. Yes. To a point. "Are we ever gonna put that book out?" They were great. I mean, my editor and the whole team- Was Lucia your editor? Yes Lucia and-
She's fantastic. She's wonderful. And she gets me and she is always been like the supportive mom, like cheering me on, like, you can do it just 10 more recipes or, you know, like, and she's like, I love this story about your dad. And she's just been wonderful. And yeah, at first she was a little bit concerned that the writing was gonna overtake the recipes. But then when she saw how people responding to them, she was like, yeah, let's go for it. Yeah. I think it's the perfect blend. Did you shoot the recipes yourself? Yeah.
You did? The whole book is me. Wow.
Yeah. The whole book is me, except for the picture of me. My friend from high school took that picture of. Yeah. That's really cool. Mm-hmm.
I mean, there is, I'm reminiscing because you know, our cookbooks were born out of, you know, our version of that story, which is truly trying to figure this out when I was the one who wanted to do this. And, you know, she didn't go to culinary school either, it was a process that kind of unfolded organically over time. Yeah we love your cookbooks. (laughs) Thank you. Thank you. We've had them, we love your cookbooks. They're beautiful. And I do remember like, you know, when you went to Italy to kind of experience that and bring home these recipes, and I think that is a beautiful way of learning how to broaden your culinary vocabulary. We spent a lot of time in Italy because Anthony is half Italian. And so I always bring back ideas that infiltrate my kitchen every time we come back from Rome. Yeah. How is Anthony doing with all this? Where's Anthony? Is he over there? He's probably in the back room. Oh, he's always on the phone right now. He stepped out like, so you guys are in quarantine, you're basically, you know, it's just two of you in your home. You're doing a million things. He's doing what he's doing. Meanwhile, you kind of explode, you know, without ever leaving your apartment. (Joanne laughs)
I mean, it has to be a bit of a surreal experience. Like how does that work with your relationship? I could not be partnered with someone who is more complimentary to who I am than Anthony. And you know, this sounds terribly unromantic, but I was very strategic about selecting my partner and- It's so Korean. Of course you were. Yeah, I was very strategic because I you know, married for love the first time and it didn't get me where I needed to go. And so this time I was like, I need certain things in my partner and Anthony is perfectly equipped to handle everything. So this is a good example. You know, when I was invited to be on your podcast and I remember I like poked him in the shoulder at five in the morning, I'm like, "I think that I'm going to be on the Ritual Podcast." And he was like, super cool about it. And he's like, "Congratulations, babe, you deserve it." And like, that is very Anthony. He's very even keeled. You know, he's like this all the time where I'm like completely all over the place up and down, up and down emotionally. And you know, he kind of helps to anchor me. But the other thing that he does, is he's always the one to ensure that I am not undervaluing myself. And that is a big, temptation for me is, you know, sometimes it's hard to understand the difference between low self-esteem and humility. And so I'm constantly like I don't deserve this or I don't deserve 2 million followers on TikTok. Why am I getting so much attention? Why am I being asked to be on this new show? This doesn't make sense. I don't deserve it. And I'm gonna totally F it up and suck. And he's the one to tell me, "No, you deserve all of it because you're extraordinary. And you're amazing. And you're gonna kick ass like you always do." But he's not gonna do it in this like flowery way. He's gonna do it like almost in like, sort of a like tough love way. Mm-hmm. That's beautiful.
No we're great together. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Although with your, you know, very logical mind and Korean sensibility, you're also open to fortune tellers, right? You got a story like... A crazy story. About my mom. What was the video where it was like this person knew everything? Oh yeah. The medium. Yeah. Okay. So yes, you're right. That must offend your rational disposition. You know what? I have a healthy, healthy appreciation for the unknown, if you will. So I think, you know, what I've always believed is like, you only know what you know, right? And then there's this whole universe that you don't know. So you have to respect that. Right? And it's also fun knowing that there's a whole bunch of stuff that you don't know that you may discover, or you may not. I think that's really fun. And that's one of the beautiful things about life. I've always been fascinated in ESP or you know, psychics. I mean, I wrote my like eighth grade research paper on people who could bend spoons with their minds. That's always something that I've loved. And we like ended up, my girlfriend and I, you know, she's a good friend. She and I watched like the show called "Seatbelt Psychic," together, like really late at night, we watched the whole show like in one sitting. And I was like, I gotta meet this guy. I gotta talk to him. I wanna talk to him. And so I booked an appointment and yeah, he had a lot of things to say that were pretty incredible. I mean, I'm as skeptical as the next person and I leave it to everyone to make their own sort of judgment. But I literally, as soon as I was done with that call, I wrote everything down 'cause I didn't wanna forget anything, like all the names and stuff like that. I took like copious notes and then I re-typed them up and everything. And so there were a lot of things that he knew that I just simply cannot explain how he knew. Right, well, what made me think of it was the fact that a lot of it had to do with Anthony's father, right? Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. So we lost Anthony's father fairly early on. And that was also one of the factors that I think inspired him to pick up a copy of your book and ultimately go plant-based. Anthony's father had been dealing with a number of autoimmune disease issues which ultimately led to his, in my opinion, premature death, unfortunately. He was otherwise a totally healthy, man. He'd run like 50 marathons, was a tennis pro. I mean, he was very healthy and active and we lost him in 2015 before Anthony and I were even married. But you know, it took me like all of two minutes to completely fall in love with him. I mean, he's one of the most charming men ever. And it was always very sad for me that I didn't get to spend more time with him in particular that he didn't get to see me run a marathon, which, you know, he'd always been so encouraging to you know, just run three miles, you can do a 5k, you know. I remember I ran my first race and I come home. There's huge batch of blueberry muffins waiting for me. And he was so proud of me. And I always wanted to show him that I valued his love and passion for running. And, you know, so I ultimately run my first marathon in 2017 and I'd always wondered like, "Oh, can he see me like crossing the finish line, in heaven? Is he watching me?" And I remember I actually had a dream about it. Like I dreamt shortly after finishing my first marathon that we were all in a car and Anthony's father was in the passenger seat. And I remember reaching around and like kind of grabbing his shoulder and said, "Hey, Robert, did you know, I just finished my first marathon," and just waking up and wishing that that were real. That that moment had been real. So yeah, it was incredibly gratifying to believe or be given the opportunity to believe that maybe he had come through. Yeah. Sounds like an amazing guy.
He was incredible. Full-blown Italian, right? Yeah. He was born and raised. An Italian gentleman. Yeah, he was. I mean, he was really into cheese, very much into cheese. Well he has never tried (indistinct) Well, that's very true. That's very true. I think we could probably, we could get him there. We could.
Yeah. He could've come to one of our retreats in Italy. Oh, well, we were actually gonna go to your retreat until COVID.
(Rich sighs) Yeah, we were all signed up. I was ready to go. We were all ready. Really? I didn't even know that. Oh man. Yeah. We were ready to go. We were so excited about going to Tuscany. Our little Tuscany retreat and then COVID happened. We're watching the news and we're like, "Okay. I don't think Tuscany's gonna happen." Yeah. We're not going to Tuscany. I guess I'll start a TikTok.
Yes. Essentially. If there was no COVID and you came out on a retreat, no TikTok, who knows?
Who knows? You never know. Yeah. You never know. You never know. That's the beautiful thing about it. Talk a little bit about the role of running and running these marathons. I mean, you spoke earlier about how that helps you get clarity in your storytelling and what you wanna share with the world, but how did the running come into play and what role does that play today? So I started running in, I think, 2013. And it was for the same reason that a lot of people run, which is just to lose weight. You know, I felt I was overweight at the time. I was just coming off a separation from my ex-husband and you know, was basically eating everything in sight. And I ultimately moved into an apartment that was right by the lake. And I was like, okay, you really have no excuse now. You live along a stretch of running path that's like 20 miles. Like you can go run a half mile. And so I started in 2013 and I kept running, but it wasn't something that inspired me. I really didn't like it. Actually, I hated it. But it was effective. It helped me to get in shape and it wasn't until I met Anthony, you know, who comes from a family of very talented and very avid runners that I started viewing running less as a necessity for my physical fitness and more as something that could help me in dealing with some of my mental health issues, whether it was, you know, the eating issues, body dysmorphia, or just, you know, feelings of, you know, low self esteem, confidence issues. And that's when running became so much more than just about losing weight. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You've written and spoken extensively about the disorder, eating issue. You wrote a beautiful piece that involved, like, you know, intermittent fasting and using that as a rationale to justify, you know, improper eating and all of that. And the role that running has played in that. But the other piece that comes to mind when I'm thinking about you running around, you know, along the lake shore, is that story about your mom not passing her nursing exam the first time around in this encounter that she has with a beggar. Right in that same place where you go running. That is my favorite story, hands down. And, you know, I was, again, I was reading your book this morning and I was reminded so much of that story while reading about, you know, that race, where your bike got into an accident. And you're basically being told, "No, you gotta get out there again," you know? And it was basically that same idea. I mean, my mom, you know, she'd just come from Korea and I know now a lot more than I did when I wrote that blog post, because I've asked her a ton about this story now. And she's like, yeah, you know, I saved $800, you know, two years of working as a nurse in Korea. And the idea was, you know, I would spend that money living in Chicago while I studied for the boards, which she needed to pass in order to be a nurse here, in the United States. And she rented an apartment, really crappy apartment, but it was on Lake Shore Drive. It's actually like two blocks from where my husband and I now live. Wow.
Is right along the lake. And my mom had never lived next to a large body of water before. So she always thought it was fascinating. And even to this day, she's like, oh, I love Lake Michigan. I love going to the lake. And I think it reminds her a lot of that time in her life where she was so unsure and now she can go to the lake and be like, "I can look back and see what I've done." But in any event, you know, she's studying for these exams. She barely knows any English and she wasn't able to pass the first time. And so she calls her dad and she says, you know, "Daddy, I failed." And you know, of course he says- Back in Korea.
Yeah, back in Korea. There's a heavy investment in her success. Exactly. Exactly. All her brothers, her sister, her one brother and all of her sisters, her mom and dad, they had all kind of pinned their hopes on my mom, the second oldest. And they, you know, were kind of thinking she would come back and bring them all to the United States with her. And she knew that. And so for her, it was absolutely humiliating and heartbreaking to tell her father she had failed and she was thinking he would, okay, come back home. And that's what she was planning on doing. But then she hears him say, "You can come home because we love you. And you're not a failure and don't worry. But if you come home now you might regret it for the rest of your life." And I don't think my mom expected to hear that. And it was really tough for her to hear that, I think at that time, because she had no money and she was like, "What am I gonna do? Like, how am I gonna come up with the money?" And so she's, you know, heading to the lake, which is where she went when she wanted to feel comforted or wanted to feel, say for just different, right. So she goes to the lake and she notices, you know, these footsteps starting to come closer to her. And she says, "Oh, it's a homeless woman." And she's like, "I don't have any money. Like I've got, maybe a couple of dollars in change. I need every cent I can save in order to fund another round of exams, if that's what I ultimately decide to do." So she's just like trying to like get away, you know, don't make eye contact, just like walk away. But this woman seems kind of determined to like, you know, talk to her and sure enough, this old homeless woman, she was very old. She had like this white hair and very pale skin, very wrinkled. And she goes, she had the most beautiful blue eyes. My mom remembers and she also remembers it was very, very cold, but she had on just a thin gray jacket, right. And the woman says, you know, "Ma'am, do you have a dollar, you know, you can spare for a cup of coffee 'cause it's so cold?" And my mom's thinking, "No, I don't have a dollar to spare right now. I need every cent I can save," but she decides, what am I gonna do? She reaches into her pocket and she pulls out the spare change and she pours it into this old woman's hands. And she's reaching her hand back 'cause it's cold. But this old woman grabs onto her hand and holds it between hers. And my mom remembers that they felt like ice because it was so cold. And then the old woman says to my mom, "You're going to pass that test." And my mom just about freaked out. She like- The mystical.
Exactly. The mystical.
The unknown. It's amazing, what a beautiful story. And she did pass the test. She passed her boards. She brought her mom, her dad, her brother, her sister, all including her husband. Very important for me. And I mean, and she had a 40 year career as a nurse, a successful, beautiful career. And she will never forget that story. I will never forget that story. And I feel like that story like replays itself in so many people's lives. We may not notice the old homeless woman. We may not even notice the words that come out of their mouths, but they absolutely replay themselves over and over again. As I was just saying that story like reminded me of the GI who reached into his pocket and pulled out a Hershey bar to give to my mom. And there's so many parallels. Right. It's those little gestures that perhaps feel meaningless in the moment that ultimately are our lives biggest levers. Exactly. Exactly. You know, and the level of detail with which you recount that story is unbelievable. It can only be by dent of spending a lot of time having your mom recount it to you. Yes.
I would imagine. And that's a thing that shows up in all of your stories. Like they're so laced with that level of, you know, attention to the minutia. Well, the minutia, like you said, it's these little things that may go unnoticed that actually build out a story and stories can change people's lives. And you know, my parents' stories again, I took them so for granted, when I was younger. I started to realize this is all I'm gonna have left at some point. I can't take that for granted. I was actually, and again, I feel like I'm totally fawning over you, but this is literally a TikTok that I watched of a Ritual Podcast. There was a TikTok, a little excerpt of your podcast. It was an interview with somebody who was asking you, how often do you see your parents? And you're like, "Oh, I see them probably once a year." [crosstalk 01:42:34]
Yeah. And you'll probably see them once a year. And how long do you think they have left on earth? I don't know. Maybe a dozen years. So basically what you're saying is you're gonna see them 12 more times before they die. That absolutely like it like went straight through my heart. And so I was thinking these stories at some point is all I will have left of them. So yeah, I'm going to spend some time mining through every little detail because if I don't have those details, what else will I have. Hmm, and how beautiful that running serves as a proxy for your version of your mom's story, as you run along Lake Shore Drive, like right along that same place, you're constantly being refreshed and reminded of that story. It's a magical place. Lake Shore Drive is magical for me. It makes me feel so close to my mom and not just the mom that I know, right. Which is the mom that, you know, helped me make muffins when I was a little girl, you know, helped me get dressed for school, yelled at me when I wasn't doing my homework. That's the mom that I think lots of people know, but this is the mom that I wasn't around to see, the young woman who came to the United States with a ton of fear and anxiety, but with an immeasurable amount of courage that she couldn't even name. And so she had to have someone else name it for her. I think about that every time I run on the lakefront path and it encourages me, it inspires me. And it helps me to remember this is in my DNA. So how does that leave you in terms of how you help others own their own story and figure out how to share it in a meaningful way for others? I think that before you can share your story, you need to become acquainted with it, right? You need to understand what it is. And you know, I did major in English when I was in college and I took a lot of writing classes. And the thing that I got most out of writing was, you gotta like keep track of your own thoughts some way, you know, whether it's journaling or some other way. And I'm a big fan of journaling. I've been doing it since my mom handed me a diary when I was nine years old. So, and she's a big journaler as well. So I definitely get that from her. And so a lot of my time is just trying to understand what is my story? Like, who am I? Like what are the pieces that make me me, right? What are the values that I am never going to compromise on? What are my priorities? And once you sort of have those kind of locked into place, then communicating your story becomes much easier. And whatever exigency is sort of driving that communication becomes clarified and focused so that people are much more equipped to understand that message. And to understand that exigency. Mm-hmm. What role do you think that hardship and challenge plays in the kind of cauldron that those formative experiences that lead to like the kind of resonance that you need to understand your own story and really grasp the power that it might hold to be transformative for others. So I always think about sort of the crucible, right? I was actually thinking about that this morning. I was like, that is- You were thinking about a lot of things this morning. Oh yeah. Just this morning, you know, among the 7,000 other things you said you were thinking about this morning. Go ahead.
Well, I was running. I was running this morning and I was like, "This is what my brain goes through." But I was thinking about the crucible and how that's such a great metaphor for my life, right? And how I had to go through this period of what I call the dark ages right? Of my life in order to come out and be the person that I am today and what that period in my life has afforded me is again, the fundamental of The Korean Vegan, which is compassion. The most important thing I feel like in the whole world is compassion. And I can now relate to a lot of different kinds of pains and struggles because I went through what I did and what I'm trying to convey through The Korean Vegan is this sense of, "Hey, I understand your pain. I understand your struggle. And if I don't, then I'm here to listen to that struggle. I'm here to be a safe space for your pain and your struggle, because you need to feel like you're listened to, and that you will be safe if you are going to be empowered to execute on that next chapter of your life, to come out of that crucible stronger." And, you know, my own story is really that. Went through really difficult time in the earlier years of my life. And now I'm deliriously happy and always seeking out the pockets of joy in every day. And I don't know that I would be able to appreciate joy the way that I do without having gone through what I did in that crucible.
Yeah. So beautifully put. That compassion is absolutely crucial and necessary to give others a sense of trust, to provide them a space, a safe space for them to connect with and ultimately later, share their version of that. But without that compassion piece, you never get off first base, right? And when I cast my gaze on, you know, culture and society at large, right now, it's as if we're suffocating on an atmosphere that is completely compassionate deprived, as we descend into our respective information silos and virtue signal to the people that we agree with and affirm our good membership and our tribes. And we're able to show compassion for those people and completely handicapped when it comes to expanding our ability to have empathy for somebody else's experience or somebody else's point of view, and without embracing more compassion into our own personal lives, and with respect to the people that we encounter, how do we ever move forward as a culture? Like it's a house of cards it's going to collapse on top of ourselves. So it begins with exactly what you're doing, like doing it for yourself, doing it for others in hopes that you create this domino effect that ultimately can have some tiny impact on moving culture on the right direction. I think you pretty much summed up everything that I thought after the November, 2016 election. I saw so much anger and rage and rampant tribalism, and just this complete unwillingness to reach out. And it really frightened me. I mean, it absolutely frightened me and frightened me for my own safety and my family's safety you know, because they are immigrants. And so on that very primal level, but it just frightened me about what does this mean for our country and what does this mean for human beings in general, that this is what we've now become. And I didn't want to participate in that. Like, I felt very strongly about my political beliefs and my ideology and all of that, but I didn't wanna be that person who was like screaming it, you know, and yelling at people and getting angry and saying, "You have to agree with what I think." I really just wanted people to open their hearts a little bit more. And I wanted to open my heart. Like I was worried that I too was becoming closed off. And I was like, maybe there are pieces that I'm not understanding adequately. And I need to open my heart and be compassionate to them and to understand why they think the way they do, however, wrongheaded you believe it is, there's a reason for it. And you shouldn't close yourself off to trying to understand what that reason was. And so that's why I started sharing my family's stories, was really to open up a dialogue in a safe way. But there's also a very lawyerly strain in that as well. Like your argument is only as strong as you're able to identify the weaknesses in your opponent's argument. So how can you be an advocate for what you believe in, unless you fully immerse yourself in the merits and deficiencies of the opposing views argument, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. Like, I wasn't afraid that I would change my views at any point. Like I knew, yes, I am on the side of justice when it comes to, and I'm not talking about who I voted for or anything like that, but, you know, I know what's right and what's wrong. And, you know, I believe in justice and I believe in equality. And I believe again, that all of those things are underpinned by compassion at the end of the day. But I also believed that I was operating with insufficient data. And that's basically what it was. I didn't have enough information to understand why something that I thought was okay, was now broken. And how could I go about fixing something without the information to understand why it broke in the first place?
Yeah. It's gotta be wild to reflect on the fact that there's so many people who are now thinking, you know, Joanne is the guru that I need right now. (Joanne laughs)
You know what I mean? Like how did you suddenly become this person who so many people are connected to in terms of life guidance, right? Like I'm a lawyer, like I'm a food blogger, but when you look back, you know, hindsight's always 20/20. When you look back over the course of all of these experiences that you had over your lifetime, it all adds up to create this perfect recipe that allows you to carry a certain resonance and frequency that that is the connective tissue with this audience that you've developed. It's like David Epstein's book "Range," right? Yes.
Like you've put your foot in all of these worlds over the years, right. Rather than, I mean, you could've just been, "I'm a lawyer. This is what I do. And this is what I'll always do. And this is the only thing I ever wanted to do and I'm that. And I've put in my 10,000 hours." But you've done lots of things. Right? And at the time, I'm sure it didn't look like any of them had any value with respect to their intersection. And yet they all come into play to create this, you know, thing that you do. So that podcast with David Epstein, I mean, I have like five podcasts that like pivotally changed my life and that one scared me, how much it impacted me. I remember I was running and I was listening to it. And I was like, I don't know if I can even continue listening to this because it's frightening to me. It's making me think things that I'm scared to think about. It's giving me courage in areas that maybe I don't want to be courageous. I want to stay inside my little safe box here. I've got a nice life. And that podcast really challenged me to think outside of that safe box. What else is out there that maybe I could conquer that I haven't allowed myself to think about because I was too afraid. I got too comfortable. And so now when I talk to especially young people and they're like, "Well, how do I get into law school?" Or, you know, "Tell me what I need to put in my college essay," or, you know, "Can you tell me the three things that I need to know in order to win my law school application," and things like that and I'm like, "Oh my goodness." You know, and I totally understand that anxiety 'cause I felt that too, but I always talk about this tapestry. Like sometimes you have to fail in order to be your best version of self at some point in the future. So don't be so afraid of failure. That's a necessary component to the crucible. You gotta go through some of that in order to know where you're going to succeed and really shine. And that's certainly something that resonated with me a lot is thinking about, "Wow, I've kind of had my finger in a lot of different things and maybe that's the reason I'm Joanne and nobody else is." Mm-hmm. Yeah, you have to recalibrate your risk analysis with what you're doing, right? And I'm just thinking about like, I often give advice to young people along the vein of like, "Your 20's are for adventure. They're for screwing up. They're for traveling, they're for investing in, you know, experiences, don't worry about the job track, it's not going anywhere," all of that. But that sits in stark contrast to a traditional Korean perspective about how you should pursue your 20's, right? Yes.
Those things don't square. No.
Right? I don't suspect that you're coming from, you know, an upbringing in which, you know, risk was really part of the equation. Nope. It was not. No my parents, I mean, they were at it very young. I was required to know what I wanted to be when I was probably nine or 10 years old. I was not allowed to, you know, do acting or, you know, I wasn't even allowed to take acting class. I mean, they didn't even want me to be like interested in it. I was allowed to play violin and do orchestra. You know, I remember my junior year in high school, that's, you know, really important years when you take your SATs. And when you're applying for colleges and all that stuff. They required me to cut out all extracurricular activities, except for like, you know, Model UN, Math club, Latin club, the things that would look good on your college application, right? And even when it was time to go to college, they said, we won't pay for college if you major in music. Which is what I wanted to study. We'll pay for your English degree. And even that was a concession, believe me on their part. So everything they did was about maximizing financial security.
Right. And I understand that. And failure comes with a capital F, right? Absolutely.
So there's a bit of deprogramming, you know, when you talk about like, don't worry about failure or failure is just, you know, a step on the road to, you know, ultimate self-actualization or whatever it is, like that involves some work on your part. That's why I was so scared to hear it. I was so terrified to hear that message because it was very counter intuitive for me. I was like, what are you talking about? I got to try and fail 10 million times. Like, no, I'm just going to pick the things that I know I will win at all the time, you know? But I needed to hear it. It was the right time for me to hear that message. I think I was at a time in my life, you know, it was probably about a year and a half ago when I listened to it. It was at a time in my life where I was like, "Is this it for me? Is this every day is gonna be like this for me until I die, or until I retire, you know, safe little 401k. Is that what it is?" And the idea that that was what it would be was very sad to me. I didn't want that. So hearing that message that, "Hey, you're 40 years old and you can totally do something new and different and exciting. You're still allowed to have dreams at this point," was terrifying, but also electrifying. We should call David and let him know. He would be very thrilled to hear that. That podcast completely, and his book, complete radically changed the way that I think. Yeah. That's very cool. Well, where does that leave you now? I mean, selfishly, as I think about how challenging your days must be trying to balance, you know, wear all of these hats and you're not letting yourself off the hook, you have to be exceptional in every bucket, you know, all the time, right? And as I said earlier, I do have sustainability in terms about all of this. (both laugh) Selfishly, and I think a lot of people would agree with me, would the world be better with The Korean Vegan being the full-time Korean Vegan? Like it's got to wear on you when you're making videos and knowing that you've got to, you know, do these discovery motions or prepare for this deposition or whatever. Like you can't show up in your full capacity to give, something is gonna crack in the meantime, right? So where is this headed? Like, how are you thinking about what the next year or two looks like? So right now I can tell you what it is right now. And also a little bit of kind of where I see things headed. Right now, I'm a lawyer. My clients get 100% of me. There is no ever like, "Oh, well, you know, maybe I can move this deposition so I could do this TikTok," that does not happen. And what that means is that sometimes people on TikTok don't see me for a bit, you know, 'cause I just, as you probably know, I mean, if you're in trial mode, you can't possibly do anything else, you can barely eat. And so that will continue to happen for as long as I am an attorney, 'cause I'm never going to allow my clients to suffer because of The Korean Vegan. And that I think, is the ethical and right thing to do. And it's, you know, the honest thing to do. That said, you know, one of my closest friends said to me, "Look, Joanne, I'm sure you're a fantastic lawyer. I'm sure you're really good at your job because you're good at everything that you do. But I gotta believe, no offense, that there's somebody who can do what you can do as a lawyer, but there's literally nobody who can do what you do as The Korean Vegan." 100%.
And when she said that to me, I was like, "Whoa, that is very true." And she said that to me around the time I listened to that David Epstein podcast. So it was like all sort like kind of converging. And so that absolutely resonated with me. And I think a lot now about, you know, what is the purpose of The Korean Vegan? And it really is as high faluting and as simple as I want to make the world a better place. I mean, it sounds very trite and (indistinct) in some respects but it's also simply beautiful. I want to leave this place more wonderful than it was when I came into it. And I don't right now sitting here today, thinking about when this podcast will be airing, I'm not sure that that's me as a lawyer, you know. I really don't think that makes sense. I think that the feedback that I've received over the past you know, seven to eight months is "No, I can do a lot more in that regard as The Korean Vegan." And I don't even know what that is right now because it hasn't seen its full potential. I've never been able to get at that. And you don't need to know. You know, and I think the conservative approach, and this is something that I struggled with when I was contemplating walking away from the law is this, you know, very attorney oriented perspective of, you know, don't be irresponsible. I got one foot in the law thing and yeah, I got my other foot in this other thing and let's just be safe. We'll see how this other thing pans out. And then we can decide. But back to the mystical, you are putting a stop gap on that energy coming into your life as long as you're straddling both worlds. And on some level you have to let go of the fear and like take the leap. And that provides the opening for the thing to come in. And when I look at what you're doing and the future that is on your horizon, the risk is very low. Like you have so much going on and there's so much more that I think that you can give. And I would just like to see you get the support that you need so that you can express your full potential. And I think the world will be a better place when we get there. I mean, it's already a better place with everything that you're doing, but I'm excited about what you're capable of producing if you have the bandwidth to express your full capacity. That being said, being a lawyer is part of who you are and there is something totally cool and bad-ass when you put that suit on and you're like, "I'm going to work." You know what I mean?
(laughs) It is. But I think there's a way of maintaining that in a different way, in some other capacity with what you do. I agree. I think that that's just a manifestation of a certain facet of my personality and that's never going to change no matter, you know, what I do or which office I go into. I will say it's been very fun connecting with the lawyer community, the lawyer social media community on Twitter. It's been very fun. I did a couple of kind of lawyer TikToks, about, various things that were going on in politics last year. And that was a fun side of me to express. And you know, at one point I was like, maybe that's my career. Like I'm gonna be the social media lawyer person, you know, or something like that. No, no. No, no.
But it's fun. It's tongue and cheek, but all of those facets of who I am, this sort of analytical nature, this obsession with data and trying to crunch everything before I make a step in any direction. That's always gonna be part of who I am. It doesn't matter whether I'm doing it to write briefs or doing it to write a story. Yeah, you've been stepping into Clubhouse too, haven't you?
Yeah. I know. (laughs) I'm waiting for you, but I'm like, you know what? He's already got that whole thing down. Here's my thing with Clubhouse. And I'm interested in your take. So I was an early invite onto that platform and there's a bunch of people that are following me, even though I've only done one thing there. So I decided, you know what? I should like check it out. So I did a talk with Bruce Friedrich from the Good Food Institute, which was great. I love Bruce. We had a great conversation. There were a couple hundred people that listened, but I was like, this is what I do already. And I'd rather do it for a much larger audience and do it properly than in this forum where less people are listening and it's a femoral and it will disappear. Like, what am I getting out of this? So, that's a really good question. But I agree with you, in many respects, it would be redundant for you, I think. And I was thinking about that again on my run this morning, I was like, "Yeah, Clubhouse doesn't make sense for Rich. Maybe not as a creator." But not in that context. Like if I was participating in a conversation with other interesting people and just one of the... There's a different iteration of that, I think.
Exactly. So I think as a consumer, it could be very interesting. I mean, I know that you've been sort of interested in discussions about crypto and NFT's and you know, all of that and the market and Bitcoin. There are a ton of conversations happening from some of the smartest, most brilliant minds touching upon these issues. You don't need to say anything. You can just quietly have it in the background. And it's like, all right, you know what? I'm editing a video while also listening to something that's enriching my life and my knowledge base. I've done that. I've done that. But then I get hit up to join the thing. And I'm like, I just wanna listen. I don't want anyone to know that I'm listening. I just wanna listen.
Create a burner account.
(both laughing) Yeah, maybe I should do that, I don't know. But that's what I use Clubhouse for largely. I thought about, you know, leading discussions on it. And ultimately I was like, you know what? I get so much more out of this simply by learning from people who are more experienced at various things than I am. And so I just kind of have it in the background. Sure, I participate on occasion, but you know what, I ultimately started listening to it for was I, you know, live in a somewhat siloed community. There aren't a lot of Asian-Americans where I live. There aren't a lot of black Americans where I live. And so what I started doing was just like going into rooms with those kinds of people, so I could just like, learn about their history, what they're talking about. What's important to them and being very humble about it and being like, I'm just here to learn and to listen. Yeah, well, when I look at it for you, there's a couple of things. First of all, it being a new platform, it's always good to get in early on these things, as you know, right?
Yes. That's where you get that crazy growth arc. If you're active on those platforms and providing value. But people associate like they associate me with conversations, right. And this is where they come to this for that. So Clubhouse doesn't make a lot of sense, but they're used to seeing you making food in 60 second clips, but what does Joanne look like when it's a free form conversation about, being a lawyer or being an Asian American lawyer or those sorts of things, like that's a different version of you that I think could be valuable. So I think it does make sense for you to do that. It could be. I mean, but then we go back to this sustainability issue and just like... (sighs) Right, well, that's why you got to walk away from (indistinct) so you could be on Clubhouse. (laughs) That's what I'll tell my exit interview, "I'm leaving so I can really, explode out Clubhouse." They'll love that. But yeah, I certainly agree that it would be another facet to me. And it might be interesting again, from a strategic perspective, I don't know about Clubhouse's longevity at this point. Yeah, I think that's very much in question because all these other platforms are launching their version of it. Exactly. And all these other platforms have been through the ringer and they know what it takes to survive. And you know, I'm not sure that Clubhouse is kind of in it for the long haul. I'm glad that I participated early on for the reasons you described, but mostly I'm just really glad for the people I've met on Clubhouse, I've met some insanely smart, intelligent people. Yeah. It is pretty cool.
It is. There's a lot to be gained from checking it out. Yeah. You should listen to the NFT discussions. I guess I should. I have a lot to learn that. Although I've talked about it on the podcast. [Crosstalk 02:09:50]
I was very impressed. I do a little bit of blockchain and crypto stuff on the side in my practice. I was very impressed by your knowledge level. Oh thank you. We can't end this without talking a little bit about the vegan aspect of all of this. Like, I feel like we've given that a little bit of short shrift. I mean, Anthony, you know, got into it from a health perspective that was initially an impetus for you. And then it became about the environment and compassion, but how has that evolved? How do you think about it now? And for somebody who's listening, like, look, there's a lot of vegans and plant-based people that listen to us, but I would say by and large, like the vast majority of them are perhaps plant curious or interested, but not really. They're like, how do you communicate with somebody who's flirting with the idea of stepping into this in a more meaningful way. So I would start where I always start, which is just my personal story, because I don't want anyone to think that I've got an agenda with what I'm sharing and what I'm sharing is very simple. You know, I started out, as you said, for you know, health reasons and environmental reasons. Those two things were very compelling to me. Missing from the analysis was any idea of compassion for animals, which is very strange because I've always loved animals. Like I'm one of those persons who can't watch animal planet, because I'm always worried that something's being done to the animals. I can't stand watching animals get hurt. And so that was completely absent from my decision making process. But I remember the last thing I ate before I went vegan was a fried chicken sandwich. It used to be one of my favorite things to eat. And there was a restaurant right next to my house that had delicious fried chicken sandwiches. And I was like, "Oh man, this is the last time I'm gonna eat this, oh, well that sucks," right? A couple of weeks later, or maybe even longer than that, a few, probably several weeks later, I'm walking past that restaurant and I can smell that fried chicken sandwich. And I'm like, "Oh man, well, nobody's watching. I could just go in and eat it. I won't even have to tell Anthony." And it wasn't being caught that stopped me. What stopped me was me thinking of what do the chickens have to go through for me to have this, what, seven minutes enjoyment of this chicken sandwich? And I was like, well, it's an easy answer then. Absolutely easy answer. Like why would the chickens have to go through this for their whole lives so that I can enjoy a seven minute chicken sandwich, which is gonna be terrible for me anyway. Like that just rationally speaking doesn't make any sense to me at all. And in that moment, what I realized was that somehow this kind of locked up, pent up compassion and love I had for animals was completely broken free and liberated as a result of my decision. And all of a sudden I felt like, oh my God, I can now love animals as much as I always wanted to love them. Because before I was like, "Well, I love animals, but I love my bacon cheeseburger sandwich." You know, it was always stopped by that, but there was no longer that stopping me. And that was the most liberating, wonderful feeling. I felt like this huge weight had been lifted off of me. And so when people ask me, "What is the biggest benefit you've ever received from going vegan?" It's that. It's that feeling that when I look at my dogs, I can say, "I love you with every inch of my heart." There's nothing being reserved for bacon or cheeseburgers or anything like that, it's all for you. And that feeling is so wonderful. Does that resonate with everyone? Sometimes it does. Sometimes it doesn't. But at least it's like 100% truthful. And I think people pick up on that. Yeah, that's a really interesting way to put it. In furtherance to that, I think the idea behind it is how do you live your life more in alignment with your values? I think most people, I think what you spoke about is a very common thing. Like we love animals, but we love our bacon cheeseburger. And we find a way to reconcile that and just move forward and not worry about it too much. But that inconsistency, that incongruency has a stress, impact. I think any time when you're saying one thing and doing another, you're creating that a little dissonance inside yourself that wears on your soul, on some level and you pay a toll for that. And that might be so minute that it's just a tiny whisper and you can just continue to live on, you know, blindly without paying attention to it. But there is something about, and I just know this in my own experience, continuing to iterate on this over the years, that every time I identify one of those things and have the courage to stop doing that thing, that doesn't match up with what I believe or what I'm telling other people, there is a lightness. You just feel a little bit lighter in your shoes, and that allows you to kind of walk into a room and look at somebody in the eye and just feel more comfortable in your own skin. A big part of sobriety, that journey is that reconciliation. And so I think that our relationship to animals and our food is symbolically very similar in that regard. I think that it is about intentionality, right? You can't be intentional about something if you spend your whole life denying it and pretending it doesn't exist. And that's what I think we're taught to do. We're conditioned to just shove this dissonance, as you say, put it away, don't think about it and just deny its existence and therefore your consumption of animal products, whether it's by eating or otherwise, is completely unintentional because you won't even acknowledge its existence, right. And so, you know, when I think about how do I live such that my actions are more consistent with my values, you need to be honest about it. And that is the beginning of it. But I think it's also just understanding that you can't be perfect at it, right? Like, you know, I always tell people there's no such thing as perfect vegan, right? It's not possible in the way that our world is currently structured to completely 100% avoid all animal products in every aspect of your life, right? But-
But the minute you dip your toe in the wrong way, the vegans are the first to let you know that you did it wrong. Yes. Oh, believe me on TikTok. Yeah. That's for sure. You know, I use a lot of egg replacer in a lot of my cooking because, in Korean cuisine, like (indistinct) is a big thing, right. And always indubitably, they're like egg isn't vegan. I'm like, what part of egg replacer is so difficult for you to understand, you know? And also I'm The Korean Vegan, everything I make is vegan. Or in the first iteration of that replacement product, they did some animal testing or something like that. So that's off the table. Like how far down this rabbit hole are you gonna go? I mean, when they mulched the fields to plant the vegetables, some insects are getting killed or some worms or some mice or something like that-
Or when you ride your bicycle. Back to Jeong Kwan, who I'm mispronouncing again. It's okay.
None of us are living a harm-free life of perfect ahimsa. We're all producing harm. It's about your intention and minimizing that to the best of your ability without murdering yourself either. Right, well, I mean, that was one of the most lovely things I heard from Jeong Kwan Sunim is, she was like, when you harm somebody else, you're harming yourself as much, right? And so there's this energy transaction- That speaks to that dissonance as well. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So you are harming yourself when you're eating like that or consuming like that in that way. And again, the intention has to not be the complete eradication of impact or harm, because I don't think that's possible, but it's to make that as small as possible while of course recognizing that you're part of that equation, right. And so that's why I think it's more a question of intention than it is about whether you check all the boxes. Yeah. Yeah. So what's the first thing somebody who's listening or watching can do to begin to make that switch? I think the first thing they can do is probably just identify, "Hey, what's one meal or one food that I can maybe replace with something else?" Not all the time, but once in a while. So for example, you know, I love the prominence now of Beyond Burgers and Impossible Meats, because there are a lot of people who are like, "Yeah no, I can't live without can't, live without my hamburger, or I can't live without my sausages or whatnot." And hey, you know what? The great thing is technology has evolved to a point where you maybe don't need to live without your sausage, just replace it with an alternative. So I always say like, think a little bit, think in small steps, you do not need to eradicate all animal products from your diet tomorrow. Nobody is asking you to do that. Well, maybe some people are asking you to that. I'm not asking you to do that. I'm asking you to say, "Hey, you know what, next time I make lamian or ramen noodles, I'm not gonna put an egg in it and I'm gonna buy the vegan one 'cause it tastes just as delicious and it tastes just as good. And you know, maybe instead of having bacon with my pizza, you know what? I'm gonna cut out all the meat and just stick to cheese for now. And then maybe one day I'll actually replace it with vegan cheese because it's so fricking good now. So it's more like baby steps, as you said, instead of trying to get them to completely change their lives in one 60 second post. Right, but ultimately, it's about attraction over promotion, right? When you watch your videos, what you're preparing is so much better than what any of us are eating anyway. And you're like, it doesn't matter if there's meat in that thing or not because like, I need that now. I think that's exactly... So I, whether you call it sneaky, strategic, calculating, I am very, again strategic, about how I share my veganism. I feel like if you just go out there and just tell them, "This is what you need to eat or this is how you need to be. The world is burning all around you. Why are you eating that way?" I think there's a place for that. And I think there are some hearts that are receptive to that. And therefore, I know you had Maggie Kwon a couple of weeks ago or something. And she said it really well, she's like, "There's a place for every kind of activism." But my kind of activism is not in your face. It's more sneaky than that. It's like, "Hey, look at what I'm making, doesn't it look so delicious? Oh and by the way, it happens to be animal free. And it's really, really good." I love hearing from my TikTok fans. Oh my God, I had no idea you were vegan, even though it says the Korean Vegan. It's the Korean Vegan. (both laugh) I get it all the time. They're like, "I have been following you for months. I had no idea you were vegan." That's so funny.
I love that. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. That is attraction over promotion because look, nobody wants to be brow beat. Nobody wants their inventory taken. Nobody wants to be told how they're doing it wrong. What they want is something that is alluring. And the fact that you cast this tractor beam and draw all these people in with your storytelling and your beautiful photography and these videos, it's really a magical thing that you're doing. Oh thank you. Very much.
It really is a beautiful thing. And I wish you well. Oh thank you. I wish you very well too. If there's anything I can do to help you at any time, I love what you're doing. You're impacting so many people and it's powerful. It's really, really powerful. And I like want you so badly to take that in when you were talking about imposter syndrome and like, "Why do..." Please disabuse yourself of that notion like you are doing what you're meant to be doing. You're carrying a really powerful resonance and you're making a difference. Well, that means a lot coming from the man who's probably responsible for The Korean Vegan. No. No. I can't even process that. That trips me out. Yeah. It's literally a dream come true to be here. I've literally, from the moment we went vegan, I was like, "One day I will meet Rich Roll and I will tell him how much he changed my life." Wow. That's beautiful. And you're a powerful manifester. Look what you create. Yeah, I know. With your powerful mind.
It's amazing. It's amazing what we can all create if we just believe in ourselves a little bit. Yeah. I love it. I think we did it. Yay! How do you feel?
I feel great. I feel good.
This is good right? Yeah. It was good. I hope it was good. Yeah. It was really good. You are welcome anytime at my table, but I would like to enjoy your food. You brought me Korean food. Yes. I brought you (indistinct) I actually consulted with my family on what to make for you, 'cause I was like, "Okay, he's really healthy. And he's an athlete, but you know, he's not Korean. So I don't know how much experience he has with Korean food. And I also have to find something that I can make the day before and will still taste good the next day." So we went through a number of different options and we ultimately decided that braised tofu was the best option and it's in my cookbook. So it's directly out of there. Well, I can't wait to try it. So thank you for that.
It's yummy. In the meantime, everybody pick up The Korean Vegan Cookbook. This thing's gonna crush it. Thank you. I'm very excited. Are you ready? Are you ready? I'm very ready for it to crush people. (laughs) It's an amazing work of art and I think it's gonna transform even more lives. So come back and talk to me again sometime. I will, thank you. In the meantime, everybody knows where to find you, just type in The Korean Vegan into your internet machine and all sorts of stuff will pop up and your life will never be the same. Yes. Yes.
All right. Peace, plants. (gentle music)
