Addiction doesn't discriminate. It doesn't care how rich, how successful, how fit or good looking you are. It doesn't care if you deny having it. But if you are truly indeed a drug addict or an alcoholic, it will take you down every time. (upbeat music) 20 years ago, I was that guy. I was broken, lost, utterly alone. My mornings typically began with a vodka tonic in the shower, it generally ended up in a blackout coming too and all manner of strange compromising situations with no idea what I'd done or where I'd been. Other than this vague, but very real feeling of just incomprehensible demoralization. There was nothing sexy, romantic or rock and roll about it. It was really just sad and pathetic. And of course I knew I was an alcoholic. I'd known it forever. But no matter how many times I tried to stop, I just couldn't because there's a huge difference between self knowledge and actual change. I was unable to change until I was willing to let go of everything, everything I thought I knew about how to live, how to think, how to be, and simply raise my hand and let other people help me. Amazingly, I did find a way out. And today my life is just a miracle. A miracle I could have not possibly imagined when I came to in that treatment center 23 years ago. So if you're one of the many millions out there that's suffering in the darkness, unable to grasp the light, here's the truth. The truth is, you never have to use or drink again. There is a solution. It's a solution that's available to all, no matter how dire your circumstances. And that solution begins with a decision. A decision to set aside that fear of the unknown, raise your hand and ask for help. It's saved my life, and it can save yours too. If you're one of those suffering in silence, please don't wait to ask for help. Pause the podcast now and call one of the phone numbers in the description below. My story is just one out of the entirety of addicts throughout history, and out of the 45 million Americans alone dealing with addiction in some form living today. Given this ubiquity, I felt compelled to dedicate this third installment of our deep dive masterclass series to share stories and share wisdom on the subject of addiction, from some of the best guests I've ever had on the show, and to shedding light on a topic that has in so many countless ways shaped the trajectory of my life. For those unaware of this new semi-regular format, what follows is a compilation of 10 incredible and unique perspectives on addiction, on recovery, taken from previous episodes. And it is my hope that these stories can bring you greater understanding, greater empathy, and perhaps even a modicum of peace. And for those currently suffering, even motivation to stop using and get help. Our recent episode with Dr. Anna Lembke seems like the best way to begin. Anna is a professor of psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine, and chief of the Stanford Addiction Medicine Dual Diagnosis Clinic. She is widely published, has testified before Congress, and has authored two important books; "Drug Dealer, MD," and her newest, "Dopamine Nation." Which is this really powerful primer on how to moderate compulsive over-consumption in a world where unfortunately feeling good has become confused with the highest good. Our original conversation was important, it was impactful. And truly an addiction primer within itself worthy of adding to your queue for later. But for now, please enjoy this powerful clip from my interview with Dr. Anna Lembke. So why don't we define our terms here a little bit? Like how do you define addiction? I define addiction as the continued compulsive use of a drug or behavior despite harm to self and/or others. How do you define it? I mean, that's the standard definition. Yeah? Yeah. And how does that, like, as I mentioned at the opening, there's alcoholism, there's drug addiction. There are some qualitative differences between substance addiction and behavioral addictions. And now that we're in this world where everything has an addictive allure to it, do you qualify our relationship with our devices and online shopping and gambling in the same way? Like, with this idea of addiction being a spectrum, how does it differ in terms of like our relationship to Twitter versus our relationship to heroin? I don't really see all that much difference between those things. I think it's just a matter of degree. I mean, I've had, for example, journalists writing for esteemed publications call me to interview me about sex addiction. And say to me, "Well, it's not really an addiction, is it? I mean, it's really just about cultural morals around what's acceptable sexual behavior and what isn't." And I've had to correct that person say, "No, you're wrong. This is really an addiction. It can devastate lives. People can lose their lives over these problems." I mean, this is what I really wanna drive home to people; like, yeah, there are many risk factors for addiction, but you can have none of those risk factors in today's world and get really addictive. Well, let's talk about the neurochemistry of addiction. Walk me through what's happening in our brains and the role that dopamine plays in all of this. Yeah, so dopamine is a neurotransmitter, which means that it is the molecule that allows the electrical signal from the presynaptic neuron to be communicated to the postsynaptic neuron, because there's a little gap called the synapse between those two neurons. So neuro-transmitters allow fine tuning of those electrical signals. And dopamine is the most important neurotransmitter involved in motivation and reward. And the fundamental difference between things that are addictive and those that aren't, is that things that are addictive release a lot more dopamine. So we have dopamine firing in our brain, that occurs at a tonic baseline. And when we do something that's rewarding or pleasurable, we get a little rise in dopamine levels or a spike. So for example, chocolate increases dopamine levels about 50% above baseline. Sex is about 100%. Nicotine is about 150%. And things like methamphetamines are 1000%. Really, you have to imagine that in your brain, there's a balance, like a teeter-totter and a playground. When we experience pleasure, the balance tips one way, when we experience pain, it tips the other. But one of the fundamental rules governing that balance is that it wants to remain level. So with any deviation from neutrality, the brain will work very hard to restore a level of balance or what's called homeostasis. So for example, if I do something pleasurable, like eat a piece of chocolate, I get a little tip to the side of pleasure, a little release of dopamine. But no sooner than that has happened, then my brain adapts to that phenomenon by down-regulating my own dopamine receptors, down-regulating my own dopamine transmission. And I imagine that as these little gremlins hopping on the pain side of the balance to bring it level again. But the thing about the gremlins is they like it on the balance, ao they stay on until the balance is tipped an equal and opposite amount to the side of pain. And that's called the opponent process reaction, the hangover, the come down, the after effect. And in my case, that's that moment of wanting another piece of chocolate. If I wait long enough, the gremlin hotspot hops off and balance's restored. But if I continue to consume chocolate in ever larger amounts to overcome the tolerance of the number of gremlins on the pain side, then I end up with enough gremlins on the pain side of my balance to fill this whole room. And I'm essentially in a dopamine deficit state with a balanced tilted to the side of pain. Now I have to keep using not to feel good, but just to feel normal. And when I stop using, my balance tips hard to the side of pain, I'm irritable, I'm depressed, I'm anxious, I can't sleep. Those are the universal symptoms of withdrawal from any addictive substance. And that can last a long time. We live in a world in which we are saturated with dopamine and we live in a culture which encourages us to pursue it. But the ultimate end result of pursuing dopamine is to feel worse than when you started. And this is really the central message. People are more depressed, more anxious, more suicidal, and more addicted than they were 30 years ago. And I contend that one of the main reasons is because of this relentless pursuit of pleasure that essentially adjusts the dopamine levels, changes the hedonic or pleasure set point to make people anhedonic, meaning without joy. Yeah. And one curious thing for me back to the neurochemistry is, you know, why someone becomes, if this dopamine neurotransmitter pathway that you're speaking about seems to be a general quality of all humans, why do some people get addicted and why some people don't. And for example, like alcohol is my drug of choice, gambling which debilitates a lot of people carries no charge for me at all. Like I just couldn't be less interested in it. Like, how does that work? Is that where genetics and nurturing and all kinds of other things come into play? I think we're all gonna get addicted to something, because now that special key that works for each of our individual locks, it's out there somewhere, and the worldwide web will allow us to find it. Having said that, it is true that people bring different degrees of vulnerability to the process of addiction. We do know that about 50 to 60% of the risk of becoming addicted is genetic. That's based on family studies, showing that if you have a biological parent or grandparent addicted to alcohol, you are at increased risk of becoming an alcoholic yourself, even if you're raised outside of the alcoholic home in a non-using home. So that's powerful genetics. It's polygenic, it's complex, we don't fully understand it. It's thought to be related to things like impulse control, ability to delay gratification, emotional dysregulation. But we don't really know what it is. Other risk factors include co-occurring psychiatric disorders. People with psychiatric disorders are more likely to develop an addiction. And also how you were raised. If you had a traumatic experience, as we've talked about, that puts you at risk. If you have parents who have explicitly or implicitly condoned substance use, either for recreation or as a coping strategy, that puts you at risk. Things like poverty, unemployment, that puts you at risk. So there are lots and lots of risk factors. But I think that the major risk factor in the modern world and one which is generally ignored, is simple access. If you have access to a drug, you are more likely to try it and more likely to get addicted to it. And now, as we've talked about, we live in a world of virtually infinite access. Yeah, you say, there's a quote in the book something along the lines of, there is something that will addict you and it's coming to a website near you. Right, you're right. Yeah. I don't know about you, but I found that conversation to be an absolute gift. And with that definition and understanding of addiction in mind, we move now to a firsthand account of what life as an addict is actually like. And we began with an account of what is perhaps the most powerful neurochemical dependence, opioid addiction. Here's what we know. There were nearly 70,000 overdose deaths in 2020 alone that involved opioids. Every hour of every day, six people in the US die from an opioid overdose. Opioid addiction is a tragic epidemic of untold proportions. And it's also precipitated this massive public health crisis destroying millions of lives unnecessarily, while also taxing our economy at the rate of $78.5 billion per year. This next clip chronicles one man's journey into the depths of opioid addiction despair, and thankfully, his path to recovery. His name is Dan Perez. This is a kid who grew up awkward, a kid who was obsessed with magic. He also had this gift for the written word and this very shrewd eye for culture, which were talents that prematurely catapulted him to crazy heights in the fast paced world of glossy magazine publishing, where he landed the coveted editor gig at Details Magazine all while harboring this secret debilitating dependence on prescription Vicodin. But I'll let Dan tell the story. All right, well, let's get to the drugs. Yeah. It all starts with a cartwheel. It does, man. I think, man, I've done so many dumb fucking things over the years to impress women. I mean, countless. In my case, it was a cartwheel. Which it's important to note, I had never done before. And it looked as if I had never done one before 'cause I came crashing down on the floor and hurt my back. And I went to see a doctor probably a day or two later and was prescribed Vicodin. And, that's how the seed was planted for me. Was it that thing where the first time you took it, you just knew? When I first took it, it did exactly what it was prescribed to do; which was mellow out whatever pain I was feeling. But it was only really a day or two later that I realized, oh wow, this is how I wanna feel. If you saw me, like, I just took a deep breath. It sorts every question I ever had. This is gonna make me feel like me. This is what I need. Like, I'm home. And it was the beginning of, at least what I thought was like really important love affair, if I'm being honest. And it happened incredibly quickly. And this quickly progresses. You get up to like 60 pills a day and it becomes your primary occupation trying to source and fill these scripts and make sure that your stash never runs out. I had never worked harder at anything in my life before that point. I had never been as committed to anything in my life before that point. Maintaining a supply of these pills was really my only focus. And I had a big job at Details at this point, and family and friends, and trying to like manage relationships and things like that. But this was really the only thing that I paid any true, true attention to. Which is fascinating in and of itself, right? 'Cause here I was, I was running this magazine, but this was really all I cared about. And so, when you get up to, as I did 60 Vicodin a day, I ultimately switched over to another drug that the numbers came down. It's called Roxicodone. Yeah, Roxicodone. It's like twice the dosage. It was twice the dosage, but without the Tylenol. So like, I was taking extra strength Vicodin. I was essentially taking, so I was taking, let's say 60 a day. I would take, just to break it down, I would take... And by the way, not immediately, I worked my way up to these numbers, right? So I didn't just dive in. You know what? 60 seems like a good number. I ultimately got to 15 at a time, and I was doing it about four times a day. And so, the active ingredients of an extra strength Vicodin are hydrocodone, which is the the codeine base sort of, you know, analgesic, painkiller. The the opiate part of it. The opiate portion of it, and acetaminophen, which is Tylenol, right? And so, I was taking, in addition to all of the opiates, I was essentially taking a small bottle of extra strength Tylenol a day for years. Right. But when you need that many pills, it's really hard to get them. And so, it does take a lot of energy. And I put a ton of energy into it. And was quite artful about it, I think. Addicts are brilliant liars. And then certainly, like the really close, like first cousin of that is great con artists, you know? And so, I would go into these doctor's offices and I was doctor shopping. I was seeing probably four or five different doctors at the time and filling different prescriptions in different parts of town. And I would put on quite a performance for them on each visit. I would start my performance a block or two away from the doctor's office, in the event that someone that worked in that office may have been out running out to grab a coffee or running an errand or something like that. I couldn't have them see me not in character. So it would start the second I climbed out of the subway or out of a taxi. And I would limp down the street. But I wouldn't just limp down the street. I would stop, and like... (sighs) And like wince, I would lean against like a fire hydrant or whatever it was and catch my breath. Like I really committed to this performance. It is funny, but it's sad and it's pathetic. And it just speaks to the places that something like this will take you. It does. It speaks to the depths that this will take you. And for me, at nighttime were like my biggest highs. I would take the most pills at night because I would... The big feeding. The big feeding, exactly. I could really just kind of zonk myself out. And I would take 15 pills let's say, and then be like, you know what? I'm gonna add like a couple more on top of that just to like really numb myself out. But this might kill me, but I would take them anyway. And it's not that I wanted to die because I don't think I wanted to die. I was prepared to die, though, for that high. It was just something I was prepared to do. But I would wake up the next morning from these moments and I would start all over again. And this is the thing. And there were probably a lot of people in recovery that will be like, you know, yeah. Like, you're not ready until you're ready. And I went down to my mom's house and got sober, spent two weeks down there. And, you know... I'm home, mom. Yeah, here I am. There's nothing quite like being like a 35 year old man or person and going back to your mom's house and basically just sort of like crumbling to pieces; which is precisely what happened. And I got sober. I was down there for two weeks. I attended my first 12 Step meeting. I called the doctor, so someone in my life, that I grew up with who was sober, said, hey, you need to tell on yourself. You need to call these doctors. And like, I was like, yes. Like I was in, I was like, this is the new me. And cut off the source. And I'm gonna cut off with the source. And I started, called, you know, I was probably seeing three or four doctors at the time. And I called all of them, except for one. And on the way back, I'm on a train. I'll get on that Amtrak train. And from Baltimore to New York, and I call and I get a prescription and it's waiting for me at a pharmacy. And I get off the train, I go right to the pills. And I took them for a day. Cunning, baffling and powerful. The most cunning, baffling and powerful. And it is such a powerful disease addiction is, that even while I was in Baltimore, I made this split second decision while I was calling these doctors to eliminate, to hold back. Hold one back. To hold one back. Have that out. That's how powerful it is. I'd gone through so much, I was out everything, my wife had kicked me out, my pregnant wife had kicked me out. All of this stuff didn't matter. I made the decision in like a blink of an eye to do that. And I went back to New York and I took pills for a day. And then I stopped. And that was it. That was October 12th, 2007. Congratulations to Dan on his continued sobriety. This past October marked 14 years for him. And his story highlights the toll that addiction can take on an addict's family members. But imagine this, what if Dan was your son or your daughter? And what if he was a teenager at the time? This is all a parent's worst nightmare. And teen substance abuse is indeed a gigantic problem. So, how do we deal with it? How do we properly equip kids with the tools they need to avoid substance abuse? How can we identify a kid who is at risk? And what can be done to prevent our young ones from developing dependency issues? Well, to answer these questions, I did what you do when you host a podcast; I turned to the experts, people like my friend, Jessica Lahey. Jessica writes about education, parenting and child welfare for the Atlantic, the Washington Post, and the New York Times. And her second, most recent book is entitled, "The Addiction Inoculation." This clip highlights drug abuse prevention, talking with your kids about drug abuse, how to spot risk factors, and the importance of relating with your kids on their level. This is invaluable wisdom for parents. And I'm excited to share this excerpt with you. So here is Jessica Lahey. So let's talk a little bit about the difference between adult addiction and what is unique about teens and substance abuse. And maybe that's an opening to talk about the developing mind, and, you know, what's particular about a young person's experiences with drugs and alcohol. Adolescents from about puberty to the early 20s are in this period of unmatched brain plasticity. The only time where the brain is developing at this rate is from birth to two. So adolescence is so much is happening in their brains. They're not only wiring up the frontal lobe of their brain that hasn't been really online yet, which is where all that executive function, planning, schedules, all that stuff happens. They're sort of limbic system, lower brain stuff is sort of running the show right now. This is just starting to come online. Myelination is happening in the brain. Fatty sheath is going over the neurons, synaptogenesis. Synopsis or just billions of synopsis are happening. And there's no retakes on this, right? So if we get, if anything goes wrong during this period, this period of incredible plasticity, can't go back and fix it. And that's why during adolescents, drugs and alcohol do some things to the brain that just don't happen later. Like there are risks to certain drugs and alcohol, to everyone, but then there are greater risks for many of them because they mess with parts of the brain that are in the process of growing and adapting and connecting really, really quickly. So that's what makes it different. And then, you know, a lot of people call a substance abuse a developmental disorder because teenagers are also uniquely wired to wanna go there, right? Novelty, risk. Kids, adolescents have baseline lower levels of dopamine than little kids or adults. So when teenagers tell you they're bored, probably really are, 'cause their dopamine levels are just baseline lower. But man, drugs and alcohol really can fix that. So they're really in a place where... And also they're becoming. And that's scary and not liking yourself is sort of a part of adolescence here and there, and drugs and alcohol can kind of fix that in the short term too. So talk a little bit about the factors that contribute to a young person being at risk. And how to identify when you see, whether it's your own child or another child, like how you can kind of intuit that that person might be walking a tight rope. The data show that if you are the kind of parents that is consistently messaging total abstinence until 21, until it is legal to drink or use pot or whatever the thing is, then your child is less likely to have substance use disorder during their lifetime. Now, as someone who always comes at statistics and data with a question mark in my head, I say, well, except it would be the parents that have the total abstinence agenda whose kids would have less access to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But either way, the reason I bring that up is that it, the parents who are like, okay, well, I just want them to be safe. So as long as they're doing it in the basement and they're not driving, it's okay. Or if I take the keys. Or as long as they're here in the home. Or, I wanna give them a sip so that they can grow up to be like those Europeans that have the really sort of moderate, you know, they're not overusing, they're drinking and just having enough, and it's a part of the lifetime, you know their life and meals and stuff like that. The problem is is that, that sort of European romantic myth of raising a moderate drinker, it's not true. Not only from the standpoint of, that doesn't work for kids. A kid whose parents have a permissive attitude around drinking and doing drugs at home, well, drinking and doing drugs before 21, those kids are more likely to have a substance use disorder during their lifetime. Also, hello, Europe has the highest rates of alcoholism in the world. They're even starting to have to deal with that. France has gone back and changed its guidelines around how much is healthy drinking because they realize, yeah, yeah, yeah, this has always been a part of our culture, but oh my gosh, we have a problem. I didn't realize that, wow. And that's fine, but do not run the risk? Hold on. Like, if you draw that hard line in the sand, are you not risking the behavior going underground? Like you're gonna cut off the communication, you're setting up a scenario which your kids gonna lie to you and hide stuff from you, and do what he's gonna do or she's gonna do. And then you're not privy to what's going on. Except, so the other thing... For people that are only listening, you just have the biggest smile on your face. This is what killed me. The writing of this book was this really hard for me, because I do not read my children's emails. I do not read their texts. I have never gone on the high school portal and looked at my kids' grades. I don't listen to their phone calls. I trust my children. And until I have reason not to trust my children, I don't search their rooms, I don't read their stuff. That's very important to me because the research also is clear on this, is that kids who are more controlled by their parents lie to their parents more. It's just the reality. So if I want my kid to be the kind of kid who can trust me and talk to me about things, I have to respect his privacy and I have to put forward the idea that I trust and respect him, okay? So there's that. There's also real concerted efforts to make these conversations really common. And an understanding that, you know, you don't have that one sex talk, you don't have one drug and alcohol talk. And my kids, just last semester, he was in a biology class and the teacher asked the kids, how often do your parents talk to you about substance abuse? And Fen was like, oh my God, when does my parent not talk to me about substance abuse? So we're having a ton of conversations about it all the time. We're very open about those things. And in order to get to that place where I feel like they can trust me to talk to me, I have to be there to listen to all the other stuff that interests them that isn't necessarily the stuff I wanna hear. I have to respect them, and we have to have open communication. And so much of what I hear from kids is, I want to talk to my parents. I really, really do. It's just that I don't wanna talk about the stuff they wanna talk about all the time. Which is like, I don't wanna constantly be talking about school. Can't we talk about something else? And so I think, the reason that one of the chapters in the book is about getting this conversation started, and now how hard that can be. And I talked to lots of therapists who have to try to get kids to talk about stuff when they don't wanna talk. And a lot of 'em, there's some cool stuff like, if you're in the same room with your kid and they don't wanna say words, tell 'em to text it to you across the room. That may feel weird and horrible and fake, but it's actually can be a really authentic way of communicating. Speaking from the perspective of a parent myself, I can tell you that Jessica is absolutely spot-on. Authentic communication with your kids is 100% key. And so it was extremely instructive to hear her speak about dopamine in the brain of an adolescent, in light of how Anna Lembke explained the dopamine pathway just a few minutes ago. It gave me a whole new appreciation for the need teens and young adults have for novelty; which is a specific compulsion that practically defines my next guest, Mr. David Joe. David is a street artist, a fine artist, a performance artist. He's a muralist, a musician, journalist, writer, producer, fellow podcast host, as well as a creative oddity, a self-proclaimed liar, thief, altruistic, narcissist and vagabond, a recovering sex and gambling addict, as well as a caring, thoughtful, and wildly vulnerable host of FX's Chor Show. He's one of the most captivating and charismatic people I've ever met. His story of behavioral addiction cranked up to 11, includes quarter million dollar hands of blackjack, rehab, tons of rehabs, recovery, treatment centers, tears, and total transformation. He was open, he was vulnerable, candid. And actually dropped more profundity and profanity than I would have ever expected. Including this incredible insight that in so many ways, you can define every addiction as a gambling addiction. So brace yourselves for this one, it's one of my favorite interviews ever. So here we go. This is the Incomparable David Show. I've been to every type of 12 Step meeting. And one is, like, because I'll be in a city where, oh, shit, I can't find a gambler's overeaters or sex and love addict, or whatever the addiction, co-defendants. You're one a bottom carter and fight club. Exactly. And they're like, oh, there's only an AA meeting or narcotics anonymous or marijuana anonymous. So I'll go to that meeting even though that's not my addiction. And as I listened to thousands of people share their story, I go, oh, it's all gambling. Every addiction is gambling addiction. Every single. When you drink and you get in a car, you're like, I kind of don't care if I make it home or not. Right? That's gambling. When you're like having sex and you're like, I'm not gonna wear a condom, and you're like, oh, I might have a kid, I might get AIDS, I might... That's gambling. And so to go to my first gamblers anonymous meeting after going to 400 AA meetings in Los Angeles, I was shocked because AA meetings AA meetings are kind of like parties in LA, right? Like it's very social there. Bright lights, a lot... Yeah, especially in LA. 300 people, they're celebrities speaker. When you go to a sex addicts meeting, a gamblers addict meeting, the process ones, there's more shame. So the lights are a little lower. Yeah, it's darker. There's a lot of shares that end with suicide attempts. So I went to a GA meeting and we went in a circle and every single share... It was a small meeting, it was like six people. Every single person shared about how they tried to kill themselves. And I've said this before, it's the reason why they don't have balconies in Vegas, because if they did, there'd be someone jumping off every day. One out of four gambling addicts kills themselves. So people gambling, I don't understand, it's like. So I'm sitting at the meeting and everyone's like telling how much money they've stolen from their family or lied and manipulated people out of, so that they could keep gambling, getting that one lotto scratcher, horse race, everything, right? And I'm scared to share, 'cause it's going around the circle and it gets to me. And I'm like, I just want $3 million (indistinct) That's so crazy. And I feel exactly the same as you. You just said, you broke into a cars to steal a quarter so you can get the next scratcher. I'm sitting here telling you I have two rotting lobsters in my hotel room, I'm having sex with all these prostitutes and gambling with millions of dollars, winning handing like hundred dollar bills to everyone I know. And I feel exactly the same as you. So I sat there and I go, "How do I feel?" How did I feel when I won $3 million at the mall in my last trip, right? And I'm playing a quarter million dollar hands of blackjack in private, private rooms, you know? And at that point I felt very little. But like you win $3 million, it feels good. But not that good 'cause I was already rich. When I lose $3 million, and even better yet, when I lose 30 million, then that feels amazing, right? That feels amazing. So I think that was the disconnect with trying to talk to people in my tribe who are addicts and people who aren't addicts, right? And it doesn't matter if you're an addict or you're not an addict because everyone knows an addict or at least has one in their family. So that's the thing when people go, but I don't understand, why don't you stop drinking or why don't you stop the behavior? It's like, I wanna fucking lose. That's why. You get it? Do you understand now? I don't wanna win. I'm happier when I'm losing. I wanna lose everything. But that's even harder for somebody to understand because you're not operating on a rational plane. Right. You're trying to numb the discomfort of your internal pain while also seeking to feel something that will make you feel alive. And if winning's not gonna do it, losing certainly is going to. It doesn't matter what that feeling is, as long as it's a feeling different from however you feel. Everything was off. I did like these expensive brain scans to show that I had like frontal, like kind of temporary brain damage from just like complete overstimulation. Yeah, your dopamine must have been completely fucked up. One of my closest friends, he said to me in the car ride, he said, "Hey, listen, like, we can't change you, we can't control you. So if you wanna get out of the car right now, go ahead. But you're not an idiot, you know how the story ends. You've seen enough, you've watched enough movies, you know enough people. Like, you will die, you will go to jail again. Like these things will happen. So the only thing you got a question is, do you wanna do it now or do you want to wait till you hit your bottom?" And I was like, "I kind of wanna wait until I hit that bottom." And in that moment of sobriety and clarity, I was like, "I'll get the help now." What is it about the human condition that everyone seems to need a coping mechanism? I mean, why can't we all just will our way out of negative compulsive behaviors? Well, it turns out that my next guest, Dr. Jud Brewer, has answered those very questions. Jud is a psychiatrist, he's a neuroscientist, a thought leader and scientific researcher in the field of habit change and the science of self-mastery. He is the director of research at the Center for Mindfulness, and an associate professor of medicine and psychiatry at UMass Medical School. As you just heard, on some level, we're all kind of craving animals subject to compulsions that don't always serve us; whether it's substance abuse, social media, binge eating, or other behaviors that lead us astray, that we find ourselves repeating uncontrollably. And in this clip, Jud shares more than a few valuable insights into the nature of cravings, including the mechanisms and neurology behind them, as well as certain keys, including mindfulness for addressing and ultimately overcoming them. I got a ton out of this conversation and I think you will as well. So here we go. This is me and Dr. Jud Brewer. Yeah, I don't know if you've ever pulled up to a stoplight late at night, and you look around and everybody's crotch is glowing. (Jud and Rick laughing) It's like suddenly 30 seconds at a red light is intolerable. Right. Well, we only got there because we've let ourselves get there. And we can say, oh, I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna be a good boy and willpower my way through this. Forget about it, like you said it, that doesn't work. So let's get into why it doesn't. Like, why is it that I can't override that impulse, and through sheer force of will? Like Marshall, my mental and emotional powers to prevent myself from doing that thing that I am so going to. Yeah, it sounds pretty good, doesn't it? We're these rational thinking beings. I think Descartes really sent us down a path that was not so good. Oh, I'm thinking, therefore I can think my way through stuff. It's not how our brains works. There's a part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex that's involved in willpower. It's the weakest part of the brain from an evolutionary perspective. It's the first thing that goes offline when we're stressed, when we're angry, when we're sad, when we're tired. That's why we wander into the kitchen late at night looking for something because we've learned that. And so we can say, don't do that, but then we just crash harder. And in the morning we set that resolved to like, okay, I'm really gonna do it this time. But that's just not how our brains work. Our brains don't work that way. But we think, you know, I think it's more we're rationalizing, or like, oh, willpower, it must be something, let's study it. And there's been a little bit of this and that. But it turns out that willpower, if you look at the people that "have good willpower habits," there's some really interesting pieces there. One is they actually find things that they enjoy doing. So people do something like eat healthy or exercise. If you ask them why they do it, the people that are really good at doing it, and you probably know this personally, it feels good, as compared to, oh, I need to get in shape to get my body looking this way for the brain. It's not like an intellectual exercise. Not at all. And that, that part makes sense, but that's not willpower. And it makes sense because that is reward based learning. We're doing something out of the reward of doing it, not because we're doing it. And so that's one of the big misconceptions around willpower is that if you look at reward based learning, it's based on the reward, it's not based on the behavior itself. So if it were the behavior, we just say, stop doing this. But it's actually the reward that drives future behavior. And that's where we can start to intervene. How does it correlate with intelligence? Because just speaking from personal experience, I've noticed over the years through my adventures and journeys in the recovery community, that people who are hyper-intelligent often struggle the most because they want to intellectualize this, where truly it is an emotional thing more than anything else. And so they struggle trying to wrap their heads around how to do this, and they can't let go of the idea that that solution resides within the mind. Yeah. Well, so, hi, my name is Jud and I'm a thinking addict. There you go. If you look at the bookshelves in my house, they are way too numerous. So speaking from personal experience, and I think this applies. Is there's this, it's almost like the thinking part of our brain is kind of like this. It's like refined sugar or refined carbohydrates. It actually just gets us stoked. And we're like, oh, that's interesting. I'm just gonna learn more and I'm gonna learn more. And I'm gonna figure out the solution to this thing. Meanwhile, day after day after day, you're perpetuating the same behaviors. Unknowingly, yeah. While you're buying every self-help book that's available. Totally. So what we really need is to land in our body, 'cause our body is really, really wise. And so, this is this intellectual thing, is like it's just drives more addiction. Whereas like, I wanna learn more. As compared to really landing on our direct experience that says, dude, why would you do that? I'll give you an example. So, we did a study with people who are trying to quit smoking. And we randomize people to cognitive therapy or mindfulness training, where we train them to really just pay attention to the results of their behavior. So when they come into the mindfulness group, they don't even know what they're getting. And so they come in and they're like, I'm here to quit smoking. And I say, okay. Next, when you go home, smoke. And they're looking at me like, is this the experiment that you're running? Is this the study? And I say, no, smoke but pay attention as you smoke and see what happens. So they pay attention to the smell, to the taste, to the feeling of the superheated smoke going into their lungs. And they come back and there's this Mr. York look on their face. They're like, oh my God, how that I never noticed that before? 'Cause they realized that smoking tastes like shit. And they can only get that wisdom from their direct experience. I had a guy who... So we, in our first study, first class was on Monday, second class was on Thursday. This guy was smoking 30 cigarettes a day. He been smoking that for a long time. He came back on Thursday and he said, "Yeah, I'm down to 10 cigarettes." And I said, "Well, what happened?" And he said, "Well, I noticed that I would drink coffee and the coffee was kind of bitter, so I'd smoke a cigarette to numb myself from the taste 'cause it's amazing how smoking numbs your taste." And so he realized, well, I don't need to smoke, I could brush my teeth. And he just went through this litany of 20 cigarettes where he was smoking all these things out of habit, where he'd learned through this reward based learning process that, oh, if I smoke, I feel better, you know, or whatever. And he realized, oh, this is not a good way to go. So the idea being, you talk about this in your book, is diverging from what Skinner calls the operant conditioning, right? Which has behaviorism, this traditional approach to like dealing with these kinds of problems, to a more Buddhist perspective, which is called dependent origination, right? And this involves being present for the experience, rather than getting into judgment, self judgment, to just be curious about what's happening. Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting. So one of the first aha moments for us in my research career was when I was looking, I was studying this operant conditioning or positive negative reinforcement. And I was thinking, wait a minute, this sounds way too familiar. And I started looking into this because I've learned, on a retreat or something, I'd learned this dependent origination piece. And it was kind of complex, there are these 12 Steps and all this stuff about birth, and this, and I was like, well, what is this? But when I looked at it, and I actually worked with a poly scholar to really explore this, it turns out that dependent origination explains operant conditioning. And so the Buddhist psychologists had figured this out 2,500 years ago, before paper was even invented. And so they were describing the same process. And importantly, this process, dependent origination, was what reportedly the Buddha was contemplating on the night of his enlightenment. As in, hey, pay attention guys, this is kind of important. So, a really important concept that actually is rediscovered in modern day and drives and explains a lot of how addictive behavior is formed. Science and ancient wisdom are great. They both explain a lot of course, about how addictive behaviors are formed. But the scary thing is the drive towards compulsion is part of what it means to be human. It's literally baked into our physiology and neurochemistry. Which means, addiction can happen to anyone. And that is the message of my next guest, Amy Dresner. Amy is a former stand-up comic, a recovering drug addict, and all around fuck up; her words, not mine, as well as a writer and an author who humorously chronicles are epic ups and downs for a variety of outlets from psychology today, to salon. I love a good addiction recovery yarn, and Amy's first book, "My Fair Junkie" is a completely wild ride, that chronicles her downward spiral from someone who pretty much had it all growing up, to becoming this addiction monster; meth, Oxycontin, alcohol, and sex among her drugs of choice. It's a journey that led to felony conviction for domestic abuse, psych wards, penniless, a community service chain gang, and pretty much more rehabs and halfway houses than you can count, until she finally gets sober and has to face completely starting over in her 40s. Yes, addiction can happen to anyone. But that also means that recovery can happen for anyone. And as Amy likes to say, if she can get sober, anyone can get sober. So here's an excerpt from episode 428, with my friend, Amy Dresner. I have people on that are in recovery. Like I always wanna hear what they have to say to somebody who might be listening, who is struggling. Whether it's with relationships, sex, or substances, or some other behavior that is causing them pain, as somebody who's been there and found their way out, like, how do you speak to that person? I would say, first of all, be gentle with yourself. Drop the shame because that will just continue use. Like you're doing the best you can with the tools that you have. I would say to be honest with other people and get help and go get a therapist, or go to AA or go to slower or whatever, get into a support group, because it's so important. When we're in a behavior that feels pathological, we isolate and that just makes it so much worse. And for me, a huge part of the healing has been the fellowship and my friends and feeling connected and reaching out. I would say, don't give up, no matter how many times you slip. Like if you're alive, you've still got a chance. That you can get through this. That you're not a bad person, even if you've done bad things. I mean, I think that's amazing advice. I think the hardest part for people is that first step. Like, well, how do I reach out? Or like, what is the thing that I actually need to do first? And the other thing is, don't wait till you feel like you're ready. You'll wait forever. Like, if I waited until I was ready to write a book, or if I like I've been waiting to feel like I'm ready and wanna go to the gym, and that's been a year and a half right now. Don't judge me. But it's like, you take action and that changes the feeling. Mood follows action. That took me forever to figure out. And there's a line in the book that my dad told me. And it took me 20 years to figure it out. He said, "Stability doesn't create discipline, discipline creates stability." I was waiting to feel okay before I could do these things, but it was doing these things that made me feel okay. So I would say, tell your feelings to shut the fuck up, your head to shut the fuck up, and you take the action and it will change things, you know? And it's like, you can't get better. If I can get sober, anyone can get sober. Sorry, like, come on. That's where it's gnarly. And one of the things you've written a lot about is the importance of structure in your life. Oh God, yeah. Well now, I mean, I work from home. I work from home. I have a three day a week editing job. I work for... And it's hard. It's really hard. I have to force myself to like get out and do things. I guess the other thing too, it's like, you can change, you can change. I really thought forever I was broken, and I was stuck with that person who I was. And it's like, I'm not that person today. I'm a completely different person. And it's like, I never thought that I could be the person who shows up and is inspiring to people and sweeps the floor, not the in streets, but you know what I mean? Like it's... Yeah, and when you're in that cycle and you're surrounded by people who are telling you, you're a piece of and you're never gonna change. Yeah. Of course, yeah. Fuck what people tell you. Yeah. Yeah, fuck what people tell you, you can do it. And also the other thing too is like, if you have an urge to use or drink or whatever, or text that guy that's bad for you or whatever, it's like, give yourself 20 minutes. Take a bath, call someone, watch an episode of "Ozark," jack off, whatever it is. Like, do something and buy yourself 20 minutes. Call someone, take a drive, take a walk. Because the urge passes, whether you pick up or not. It took me a long time to figure that out. And it's like, but if you don't ever sort of wait through that feeling, you don't realize that you can get through it. It feels overwhelming, and then the urge comes to you, like I gotta do what, I gotta do it, you know? Yeah, and you feel like you're gonna die. If you don't do it. And you don't understand that it's so true. Like it will pass. Yes. And if you could just get through that and realize and go, oh, you realize that the feeling, doesn't control you, it won't kill you, you don't have to obey it. And that's where that freedom comes from. You're like, oh, I can change. And it's just slow. It's a slow process as you know. Takes a while to slowberity. I know, right. I hate that. The all annoying slogans. But that you can rewire your brain slowly over time, you know, through action. You really can. And you can be happy. You can have a good life and you don't have to be a prisoner to that crap, you know? And just also don't care what people in the room are saying. Like if you eat it and just come back, it's not a competition. I don't like that. Everyone's got their own stuff. Everyone's got their own bag. And some people have like really severe mental illness. Like everyone has their own thing, you know? Yeah, I think that keeps a lot of people away. They come in and they have a weird exchange with somebody and then they're like, I'm done with that. And then they're dead, or they can't get sober. Yeah. It's like, you know, find another meeting, or it's like, you know, I mean, I just wrote a piece about this in this Dr. Howard Wetsman said 50% of people who relapse will never go back to it. That's heartbreaking. Yeah. Because either someone said something to them or because of shame, not that they, yeah. That 50% gets sober, but they will never even make a second try. And it was like, you know, I have such a big dose of like, who gives a fuck about me? Like, I was never, like, I gotta be queen of the drunks. Like I was just like, I don't care. Like this is my life, and I don't care what these people think. And my social capital is not based on what people in AA think about me. And I was just like, I'm on my own trajectory. Well, that's how you get well. Because you can't save your ass. If you're trying to save face and that good, then you're working across purposely. Exactly, exactly, exactly. It's like, it's not a competition. You know? Okay, so as we step into the back half of this episode, I wanna turn our attention to another powerful story of from opioid abuse. But this time I wanna zero in on that moment, that specific moment when an addict knows they're ready for a recovery. It's a story that highlights the gift that hitting rock bottom can be, how one goes about piecing their life back together after losing everything, and ultimately about how AA save lives. I'm talking about the story of Jeff Grants. Jeff is a former New York City attorney who became addicted to painkillers in the wake of a ruptured achilles he suffered playing basketball. It didn't take long before he started making bad decisions under the influence, fueled by this dependency that led to let's call them ethical transgressions, as well as financial misdeeds, losing control of his law firm, and even a suicide attempt. Jeff survives all of this. He even enters treatment, gets sober, starts to put the pieces of his life back together. But then at about a year and a half into sobriety, he gets arrested for fraud. He pleads guilty and ends up serving 18 months in federal prison. Today, Jeff is a pastor serving the imprisoned as well as the underprivileged, who is also now more than 15 years sober. So this is his story of redemption and how 12 Step programs give people hope. Here is Jeff Grants. So I said to him, all right, why don't you just resign my law license for me? And I went to my doctor friend and I got a prescription of Demerol, 40 tabs and went home. And after my ex-wife and kids went to sleep, I took the whole bile. It's like 40 tabs. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, I knew what I was doing. I mean, I was trying to kill myself. Was it a real suicide attempt or was it a desperate call for help? I mean, 40 seems like enough. But your tolerance must've been insane. My tolerance was insane, but I don't think... I thought 40 would be enough. That was the point. I thought 40 would be enough. And I've spent a lot of years trying to figure out whether or not it was a real attempt or a cry for help. But I wanted the noise in my head to stop. But a few days later, I called the Silver Hill Hospital in New Canaan and I wanted to go there. I knew to go there because clients of mine who had (indistinct) So you made a decision like I'm done, and you did your own self style detox at home. Well, I had done it 100 times before, so it wasn't as if I was ignorant of what a withdrawal would be like. This was just the super one. This was the biggest one I'd ever been through. And certainly the first one that I overtly tried to kill myself. Opiate withdrawal is gnarly. It was bad, it was bad. How long did it go on for? I don't know, three or four days, probably. It was bad. So you waited until you weathered that before you checked yourself into treatment? Oh yeah, because I knew better than anybody. You did. So you had a sense that this... As somebody who's tried to get sober many times on your own, you know what it's like. It's like, okay, this time, I'm never gonna do it again, but kind of in the back of your head, you're like, you're not really sold on the idea, but this was qualitatively different, you knew. Well, I didn't have a life to go back to. I knew that. I knew everything was gone. I didn't really understand at all at that point the gift of a hard bottom. That's something I learned later. But everything was gone. And so going to rehab, it was a blessing. So how do you begin to piece your life back together in the aftermath of all of this? Well, certainly through recovery. I mean, seven weeks in rehab and they brought recovery meetings in, and I kind of took to them. And more, I think to the structure than to anything, I was too out of it to learn anything, I was gone. And the first day out of rehab, I did what I was told to do. I showed up at the meeting and I raised my hand and I said, "I'm Jeff and I'm an alcoholic and a drug addict. And I needed temporary sponsor." And I gave like three seconds on my drug of choice, or I can't remember right now. But at the end of the meeting, the leader who had been leading the meeting, and I thought it was the boss, I didn't know, that was my first meeting. I didn't know. And he came up to me and he said, "This is for alcoholics and you've done drugs and you're in the wrong meeting." How dare that guy say that? I've never heard anybody say anything like that. You're a West Coast guy. Yeah, that's interesting. Wow! And this other guy came up to me, who was standing right there and he was the spitting image of Freddie Mercury. I am telling you, this guy, I thought it was Freddie Mercury in my haze. And he said to me, "Don't mind that guy. I'll be your temporary sponsor." And Brian T was my sponsor. And he gave me very clear instructions. Like, what to do. And for 30, 60 days, I went to a noon meeting every day and I fell asleep with my head against the wall 'cause I couldn't even focus. But you showed up, took direction, made yourself known. Yep. And began to take accountability. Did all that stuff that seems completely unrelated to staying sober, like, three people, take numbers, make coffee. Lie a lie. Keep coming back. Yeah, exactly. But we had to get rid of the house. And of course, I did whatever. You have no income at this point. No income at this point. And a little, some savings, but no income. And I did what every same guy does when they lose their house and their career and their reputation. I moved to Greenwich, one of the wealthiest communities in the country. Why would you do that? Because I had started going to AA meetings there, the recovery meetings there. And those meetings were so important to me that I had to be there. And also, it was only six miles from our home. And although the state line is huge in terms of media and in terms of interconnectivity. But I figured my kids would still be able to maintain relationships with their friends. And that was true, that happened. But there we were in Greenwich, and for the next 20 months or so, I was living in an apartment in Greenwich and going to meetings. And I went three times a day, four times a day sometimes. And I was a lock step in recovery. That was my life. And this saves your life. Saved my life. Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting to me, I'm always encouraged when I hear stories like yours of people whose lives have been spared as a result of the 12 Steps, because in our fast paced modern culture, it seems like every year there's some new hot take on what sobriety is or should be. And now we know more about addiction and alcoholism than we ever have before. And all these other ideas are antiquated. And maybe there's truth in that, maybe there's not. But I know that 12 Step and Alcoholics Anonymous saved my life. It's saved the lives of so many people that I know. And it works. It works if you're... It worked for me. I have no opinion on how people get sober. If they find other ways of doing that, more power to them. I just know that this is what has worked for me and continues to work for me and remains my number one priority. It's a big world. And I assume there's people getting sober other ways. For me, it worked. And it gave me a home, you know, a family, people who weren't judging me. And I had abandoned all my people, places and things because nobody would talk to me. I was a pariah. And so I didn't have the places, I didn't have the things, and I didn't have the people. So that hard bottom was a blessing. Yeah. And it had to, you know, force you to rightsize your ego and take stock and inventory of how you were living and figure out a new approach to how you were going to get things done. Yeah, inch by inch. Big thoughts like that probably didn't happen for awhile. I was just trying to survive. Many of our guests so far, including Jeff, have referenced the larger emotional context within which their addiction began. Psychological backstories that drove them to use and abuse substances, including the need for validation, things like bullying, physical or emotional abuse; in other words, trauma. And there is no better person to speak on the way trauma affects addiction, than my next guest, Dr. Gabor Mate. Dr. Mate is a world renowned bestselling author, lecturer, and a specialist on the cutting edge of addiction medicine research, with some fascinating and somewhat controversial, but I think quite regulatory ideas about the nexus between trauma, early childhood development and addiction. With over 20 years of medical practice and family and palliative care, Dr. Mate has decades of firsthand experience working with hardcore drug addicts. I find his insights quite compelling, specifically this idea that the source of addiction is not to be found in the genes, but in fact, originates in the early childhood environment. The idea that addiction is complex and that there is no quick fix. And that we should be advocating for a more compassionate, less punitive approach to addicts, addiction and treatment. I think you're gonna really enjoy this perspective. So without further ado, this is me and Dr. Gabor Mate. What's wrong with our kind of conventional wisdom around the idea of addiction and where your kind of philosophy and ideas coming. Well, traditional wisdom around addiction is either the legalistic one that has it as a bad choice that people make, from which they have to be deterred by means of severe punishment tends to be what the so-called criminal justice system, which by the way, I think it's a good title. It is a criminal system. The justice system is criminal, the way it treats people. Well, specifically addicts, sort of further traumatizing the people that are most traumatized. That's my point. Now the point though, is that that's the legalistic view that addiction is a choice and people need to be punished when they engage in addiction-related behaviors, their very addiction being illegal. Now the other perspective that seems different is that addiction is a brain disease that you largely inherit. So it's not your fault 'cause you can't help what genes you inherited, but it's a disease of the brain that arises in the brain; partly for genetic, partly for other reasons. And what both of those perspectives share though, different as they are, what they share is that in neither case that we're looking at people's life histories, and we're not looking at a social history or the history of a country or a nation. So who are the populations that are more severely affected and what happened to them? And who are the individuals that are most severely effected and what happens to them? Now, my perspective is that, addictions are attempts to soothe pain in every case. In fact, the drugs are specifically painkillers, cocaine numbs nerve endings, opiates, heroin, these are painkillers, alcohol is a painkiller, cannabis is a painkiller. Crystal meth diverts you from the experience of emotional suffering by making you feel more alive and excited temporarily. So it's always not why the addiction, as you said, but why the pain. Keith Richards, when he was talking about his heroin habit in his book, "Life," which is autobiography, he said, and I'm almost quoting on verbatim. He said, "The contortions we go through just not to be ourselves for a few hours." Now, why would people not wanna be themselves? Because they're not comfortable in their own skins. Why are they not comfortable in their own skins? 'Cause they suffered in their own skins at some point when they couldn't help it. So what I'm saying is that addiction, in every case, whether it's the severe addiction of the heroin addicts that I dealt with, or the respectable addictions of the workaholic, or, I'm probably free to mention that you talked about your own addiction at some point to extreme and you're in sports. And these are always based in trauma. So any attempt to escape the present moment has to do with discomfort that we incurred as children. And there are degrees of discomfort, degrees of trauma. But fundamentally addiction is always an attempt to escape suffering. So it's not the problem. The addiction is not the problem. The manifestation of the addiction is the solution to the problem. It's an attempt and... And it works until it doesn't work anymore. It works temporarily. In fact, that's my definition of addiction. It's a temporary relief pleasure, craving that is satisfied momentarily, but creates negative consequences in the long-term, and you can't give it up. That's what an addiction is. But yeah, that's what it is. It's an attempted solution, it's not the primary problem. And so to say that addiction is a primary brain disease, which is the official medical perspective that I was trained in misses the whole point. But then again, the medical profession notoriously does not understand trauma. The research is totally clear. Like, it's not that I'm giving you personal insights. I mean, I am, but these insights are very much also supported and grounded in a vast body of literature. And whether we're talking about addiction or cancer, you can look back to negative childhood experiences. So even on the level of physiological changes in the brain, we're looking at the same changes; just as some people use and need chemicals to achieve those changes, other people get it through behaviors. But the gambler is still after a dopamine hit, dopamine being the incentive motivation chemical. He's not after the money, 'cause it was about the money, he would quit after he won his first jackpot. But it's about actually the dopamine hit that he gets, that temporary state of elation and excitement that he gets when he's engaged in the activity. So, all addictions, whether they're behaviors or substances or whatever they are, they serve the same psychological purpose of escape from suffering and pain, discomfort with the self, and they activate the same brain circuits with the same neuro-chemicals. So there's only one universal addiction process. Drug addiction being a small, small manifestation of that. Right. And because it's so divorced from logic and rational thinking, I think that's what prevents a lot of people from really, truly understanding it. And why the conversation around it has to do with judgment and shame and criminology. Well, I think if you wanna explore that mine field, we can. I think on the individual level, the judgment and this thing for drug addicts is actually well expressed by Jesus when He says, don't be hypocrite, He says. That's the word He uses. He says, before you try to remove the sliver from your brothers eye, remove the poll from your own eye. And so what it is is that when there's something we don't like about ourselves, then we'll look at that same thing as somebody else and reject it. And imagine that we're different. So the workaholic businessman, or the workaholic doctor, for that matter, or the shopaholic man or woman. The guy who spends $8,000 on CDs. CDs in a week, I've heard of people like that. And, they like to think of themselves as superior to the drug addict. And yet the dynamic is the same; which is being in the grip of a compulsion that you can't control. And that has negative consequences. And you don't have the power. At least you perceive that you don't have the power to regulate yourself. And so we see that in somebody else. And it's so easy then to look at the externals, which is as somebody who's in a back alley in the downtown east side of Vancouver, shooting over with heroin or cocaine, or they're different from the rest of us. No, they're not. They're only different in their expression of their addiction. And they're also different in their social-economic background often. And also of course, in the degree of trauma that they experienced as children. So when we talk about addiction as a brain disease, yes, there's truth to that. But what shapes the brain is the environment. And the necessary condition for healthy brain development is non-stressed parents who can really connect with the child. So you can see in our society, why so many people are affected, 'cause how many parents are non-stressed? How many parents have the kind of support that traditionalist societies used to provide? The clan, the tribe, the extended family where the child is always around adults who are looking after 'em. Not that I want to romanticize the past or nor that we can go back to it, but we've lost something. And so in this society, it was just so disconnected, alienated. Parents are, even if they're together, and 40% of the time, they're not. But even if they are, they're both having to go to work, they're both under severe strain, economically very often, relationship stresses, the spiritual emptiness in people's lives. Kids are being born into situations that no longer support healthy brain development. And on top of that, they're actually abused, which is what happens to most severe addicts, specific abuse in a certain form of physical beating, sexual exploitation, abandonment, neglect, emotional torment, that plays havoc, not only with the personality development, not only does it give you a lot of pain that later you have to just suit somehow, but it also distorts your brain development. And then suddenly you have the template for addiction. A child under severe emotional stress has got real limited resources to deal with that. They can't fight back, they can't escape and they can't change the situation. So now the brain kicks in with its automatic defenses. One of them is emotional shutdown. So now you no longer feel the emotion 'cause they're too painful. But if you don't feel emotion, life becomes very dull and boring. You may have to do drugs to feel better. Or you might tune out as a way of not experiencing the stress. So you adapt by tuning out. But if that gets programmed into your brain, later on, you've got this condition called ADD. Which is characterized by extreme tuning out. So what happens is that these early defenses help kids survive the immediate stress, but become sources of dysfunction later on. So as a matter of fact, I mean, as you all know from recovery, what makes the difference ultimately is not just one's own individual willpower and determination, but also others who can listen to you compassionately and validate your experience and not judge you. We've heard many recovery accounts so far that sound very linear. They were in the throes of addiction, they hit a rock bottom, and then they find longterm recovery shortly thereafter. But what about the people who try recovery many times before it finally sticks? What is it about the final attempt that makes their recovery last? And what should an addict do when they recoil against the idea of a "higher power?" Well, this is the focus of this next clip, featuring Charlie Engle. Charlie is a husband, father, and celebrated ultra marathoner who has run across deserts, and summited ice covered volcanoes, has swam with crocodiles, and even served a stint in federal prison. But at his core, he is a sober addict. Charlie told his whole story way back in the early days of the podcast, episode 67, which is absolutely epic. You got to check it out. And this clip is from his second appearance, episode, 248. In addition to talking about why his recovery didn't stick the first time, we discuss a common question we both get regarding, if we have, in fact, just transferred our prior addictions onto our current running. As well as the perfect summary of what an alcoholic is at their core. So for that and more, here is Charlie Engle. Man, I'll just tell you very briefly, the reason I know this for certain, the reason treatment didn't work for me when I went, when I was 27, was, you know, 28 day program in Pacific Grove, California, traditional, you know, you do the group counseling, get some one-on-one, you go to AA meetings that are right there in the building and all that, is because I was a genius, right? So, I mean, that was my view. And I didn't really think I was a genius, but I was smart. And smart people don't need spirituality. That was my... They also don't need to do the work because they can read the book or skim it and go, I got it. I got this figured out. Absolutely. So I said, almost like training for a marathon, I said, okay, I'm gonna do this for 90 days. So I practically learned that bedbug word for word, I could, you know, I'd say the serenity prayer, I would certainly talk about a higher power. But in my head I might, yeah, whatever, that's for other people. I'll do the rest of this. And I did get a lot out of, you know, doing an inventory and sharing it with somebody and talking about this. I understand very quickly that doing all of that was a way of purging and therapy and it did feel good. But I wasn't about to allow some kind of higher power to... I wouldn't turn a shit over to that guy. You know what I mean? 'Cause that would require you to relinquish, sell yourself wealth, right? And as somebody, you know, beyond the intelligence quotient, you're also an athlete and an athlete who excels in an individual sport. And if there's something you learned through the process of developing as an athlete in an individual sport, is that your performance is directly related to the amount of work and focus and dedication that you and you alone decide to put into it. And what comes out of that is this idea that self-will will avail you everything, right? In the context of running or any other number of sports. So to then say, well, you got to let go of that. Like, not only does that create something to disagree with, it doesn't even compute. Like, what do you mean? Right? Like the idea of surrendering that, I don't even understand with that. No, so 90 days into treatment, I mean, it's 28 day treatment. And then I stayed sober for 60 more days where I was going to meetings and I was active. And man, I was waiting for that 90 days tip because that was like a graduation diploma for me in my mind. That I knew that. Like, I wasn't telling anybody else that, but if I could just get to 90 days, then things would be fine from that point forward. And so I stopped going to meetings. I certainly didn't have a sponsor to talk to. And I did manage to stay sober another like 90 days. But what I didn't get at that point was that there's only about what? There's only like 1% of the time for a recovering addict that is actually dangerous. And the other 99% of the time is when we're supposed to be building up our power and our guards to be prepared for that 1%. That one moment when a drink appears or a drug appears or a feeling, heaven forbid, appears. An motion that we're not prepared for that in the past, we could take care of that emotion in a second with a drug or a beer or whatever. And so, I didn't understand that all of this time was like training for a race. You're training 99% of the time, and the race has only 1%. That race is that one moment where suddenly you're like, what's the big deal? I can have a beer. You got this thing in the back of your head, this voice going, hey, you know, you deserve this. You don't just need a beer, you deserve it. Damn it, you've worked hard. So at nine, it was at around nine months, right? So at nine months, you take your diploma, you graduate from sobriety and celebrate this great achievement by going out on a bender, right? And so when people come to me and they're like, you know, like I'm not an alcoholic. I'm not sure I really understand what that means or what that is, like, what is an alcoholic? What is an addict? And I just, I always say, imagine a person who works extremely hard to repair their life. They stay sober for an entire year. They put everything into it. They make it their number one priority. And then when they get that one year chip, they celebrate it by getting drunk and they think that's a good idea. That is the essence of what it means to be an alcoholic. The insanity of that tweak, that mental tweak, that mental, you know, whatever it is, disrepair that would lead you to believe that that's a perfectly good idea. Well, and here's the thing. The discipline that it took to go that year and to know, and probably in the back of your head that, I mean, that year didn't just appear and then you decided to get drunk. Like that thought of drinking started. Oh yeah, you're planting that seed. And so, how much discipline does it take to actually keep yourself in that space once you already know this is gonna happen? I mean, so the power of an alcoholic or an addict, it's so strong. And if that could only be used, if our power can be used for good, then a lot can be accomplished. And that is why though, I think, you know, you and I and a lot of other people that you talk to and that are listening out there right now, they do understand that, man, this addictive power is what makes them good at stuff. And if they can just figure out how to apply it to their life. Right. But then when you do that, they accuse you of just being addictive in that other discipline. Which brings us up, and we talked about this last time, but I think it bears repeating, or maybe your definition or perception about has evolved. When people say, well, you're still, you're just a crazy alcoholic. You just channeled all that into your running and you have this unhealthy relationship with it. And it couldn't be. It literally couldn't be farther from the truth, because everything about my addict and my addictive behavior when I was drinking and doing drugs was about hiding every bit of who I was. I mean, first of all, I didn't really know who I was, but heaven forbid that starts to surface, I would drink it or drug it down back into the pit where it came from. So all I wanted to do was destroy and hide every bit of my personality. Running on the other hand does the exact opposite. I really do feel like I become the true essence of who I am and who I'm meant to be in the course of a run. And that doesn't mean it's all light and sunshine. Sometimes that means I'm a dick. Sometimes that means I'm whatever. But it's an emotion that I actually get to have. So maybe my view has evolved. I think this is different than what I said, but it's more expansive. I know understand that I'm not, it's not a requirement just because I'm sober that life is going to be good, or that I have to be nice all the time, or that I'm not gonna be hungry or cranky or snap at my wife on something when I absolutely shouldn't. The difference is now I get to apologize. I get to admit my wrong, or even potentially stick by my rightness but without that alcoholics conviction of based in fear that everything I do has to be justified in some way. And running has taught me that I... And it doesn't have to be running. It can be biking. I mean, if I couldn't run again tomorrow, I'd find another outlet for this. And I don't do it additively, I do it instinctively. I don't run every day. I like to exercise every day because it makes me feel good. Why the hell wouldn't I want to do that? Running saved my life, but then it actually gave me a life. Our next guest is Mishka Shubaly. Michigan is a dear friend and has been on the podcast many, many times. He's a writer and musician who pens true stories about drink, drugs, disasters, desire, deception and their aftermath. He is also the author of, "I Swear I'll Make It Up To You," which is this brutally honest, booze fueled opiated account of addiction, abandonment, artistic frustration, faith, guilt, sobriety, running, resentment, music, and ultimately salvation. But in this final clip, Mishka discusses how to handle cravings when they appear, what to do if you can't fully separate yourself from a triggering environment. In Mishka's case, he still play shows in bars. And we end the clip with Mishka sharing about the power of community, and specifically, how our friendship helps keep him sober. I'm honored to have this man in my life, and I'm excited to share his perspective with you. So, here we go. This is me and Mishka Shubaly. This is kind of an endemic thing with alcoholics. Like, even people who have been sober for a long time, suddenly they have an urge and they feel bad about themselves. Like, I can't believe that I have that urge or that compulsion. Like, haven't I moved past this? But you have to remember that if you're an alcoholic, like you're a true, real alcoholic, that is your default state of mind and your condition. So you should just understand that that goes with the territory, and it's a little kind of like red flag, like, oh, maybe I need to take a little contrary action to get back on track. But of course, you're gonna feel that way from time to time. The miracle is that you don't act on that. It's like, you're gonna have those emotions. You're gonna feel that way periodically. It's what you do in response to that, that dictates life outcomes. And the miracle is that you're not drinking every day. Like you forget that, right? That's your default state. And you've put together eight years without doing that. So you have a craving from time to time. Congratulations, you're an alcoholic. You shouldn't be ashamed of that. It's just a little nudge to say, hey, maybe I should take a look at whatever is going on with me physically and emotionally that led to that craving, so I can maybe shift my behavior or my environment a little bit to nip that in the bud so that doesn't come up next time. It gets even more interesting. On this last tour in England, I was traveling with this band bird cloud who are alcohol aficionados. They appreciate the sauce. And they're brilliant musicians and brilliant writers. And it was a privilege to tour with them. And also day after day, I was like, ah. And then towards the end of the tour, we were in London and I had sort of like, you know, after you're on the road for a while, you get used to setting things up a certain way. I put my cable here, I put my slide here, I put my thing, water or seltzer here. And then I got up on stage. Great night, like sold out room. And to be in a foreign country and have people singing your songs back to you. I mean, that's like such a fun thing. And I went up and I like did my first song, reached down, grabbed my drink, took a swig of it, and it was pure vodka. It's not the first time this has happened to you. You brought about that other time. And that was a mixed vodka drink, this was straight vodka. And I was like, did somebody do this to me on purpose? Or like what the... But I felt it in my mouth and I spit it out back into the glass and I did the rest of the set totally cotton mouth, like not drinking anything. And that's weird to have something like that happen in the public eye, and then you have to go through the rest of the show. And the whole time I was thinking like, well, I already got a little bit, why not just, you know? Right, and you also have that millisecond thing where it's in your mouth, and it's almost like, what is your knee-jerk unconscious reaction? Like swallow or spit? Like that can go either way. Yeah, yeah. And every alcoholic justification was going through my head of like, oh, I already got a drop down my throat, it's already tainted or whatever. But I never did. I didn't take a drink. As soon as I got off stage, I pounded a couple of bottles of water. And that made me realize that the cravings that I've had, where I like really want to drink, that's not what's going on. I really don't want to drink, because I had, I had everything teed up for the perfect excuse where I had accidentally taken a drink. And then it would have been so easy. I'm on tour, like in a foreign country. I had every excuse lined up to justify a good relapse, and I didn't do it. And I realized it's because I really don't want to drink. And when I get those cravings about, I really want to drink, it's I miss being young. I miss being 22. I'm having a hard time dealing with aging. Being like a 40 year old man. It's fucking... It's really bombing. It's a romantic attachment or relationship with a bygone era in which you were carousing around Brooklyn and New York, like doing whatever. Yeah, yeah. It feels like a time machine in a bottle where I can just have a drink and go back there, to being a kid, to hanging out with my friends, to falling down in the river, or whatever bullshit we used to do. There's an adage in sobriety that, if you're truly sober, you can go anywhere. Like, you shouldn't have to avoid this place or that place because it might trigger you in a certain way. But that there has to be kind of a purpose for wandering into a location that you might imperil the solidity of your sober program. And what always mystifies me is that you do this alone. Like, I can't do it alone. I need other people. I need the secret society and everything that comes with that to stay sober. And I know what it's like to step outside that, and I've done so at my peril and it hasn't worked out. So, I stay close, but you still are holding onto this sort of self-will run, self-styled approach to sobriety. And I have no judgment on that. You're eight years sober, man. Like, that's amazing. But it's curious to me how you're able to do that, especially when your lifestyle finds you in all kinds of locations that aren't conducive to the highest vibration. Rich, know that you're with me everywhere I go. I mean, if you're not there, you're still there. You and a couple of other friends are like definitely people who I carry on my shoulder, in my head, with me wherever I go. 'Cause I have moments of weakness and I definitely have moments of nihilism. Words like my nihilism it's in regression, but it can easily come back, you know? And I just think that, that's not the life that you would want for me. You would be worried. You would be concerned that... You know, I mean, there's a lot of things. Listen, I know at this point that I couldn't alienate you as a friend if I tried. But I know too that if I started drinking that it would be really hard for us to be friends, you know? And I have other friends like that. So I don't go into these places alone. I bring you and a couple other people with me. All right, we did it. This concludes today's deep dive into addiction and recovery. Thank you for taking this journey with me. I hope you not only enjoyed it, but found it helpful. And once again, in closing, if you or someone you care for is currently struggling, don't wait, please reach out for help. Towards this end, we have compiled a series of resources, which you can find in the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com. If you found today's video valuable, please subscribe to my channel, and I'll see you in a few days with another great episode. Peace. (upbeat music)
