Marshall: I'm ready whenever you are. Stan: Are you rolling? Charlie: Yeah, we are rolling. Marshall: We are rolling. Stan: Oh, snap it's Marshall Marshall: Hi? Stan: We're back for the Draftsmen podcast. Marshall: Let's do a podcast. Stan: That's what I just said. Marshall: Oh, well. I was just kinda assuring we are on. Stan: Are we going for the awkward intros
every time? Marshall: No, because eventually they'll become
so normal that they'll be comfortable and people will see through the false awkwardness
and know that they're really at ease. Charlie: People are clamoring for the singing
intros. Stan: Oh, yes. Marshall: Oh, yeah, yeah, well, I'm not prepared,
sorry. Stan: You're always prepared to sing. Marshall: Awkward. [music intro] Stan: Alright, guys. Welcome to the Draftsmen show. Today we're going to talk about, Habits for
Success. Marshall: "Habits for success". Stan: As an artist. But they're probably good habits for anybody. Marshall: Yeah. But we've given a more thought about how artists
succeed and don't. So, this is specifically. Stan: Yeah. [laughter] Nice. Marshall: I like that sound. It's a little rat for those who can't see. Stan: I thought you were drinking. You know, like finishing your coffee. It's like [slurp sound]. Marshall: The slurp sound. Stan: Sounded like a slurp. Marshall: When you slurp you know you're comfortable. You know you're in the presence of someone
with whom you can be a slurper. Charlie: You slurp in Japan, it's a sign of
respect. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: It means you are enjoying. Marshall: Slurping I think is a good thing. I didn't know that in Japan you slurp out
of respect. Charlie: It shows that you really appreciate
the meal. Stan: And belching too, right? Charlie: That I haven't heard. Stan: I heard that just showing anyway that
you're enjoying the food is respectful. Charlie: That could be, yeah. Stan: Like if you're sweating and slurping
and burping, it's like; Wow, that guy is really into that food. Marshall: It's yeah. It's also, there's a kind of family togetherness
with it. This is us. Habits for success. Stan: There was one dinner I was having and
I think the dad just farted and it was totally cool. And my mom and I looked at each other like,
what the hell? [chuckle] I guess that's cool too. Marshall: Sure. If you're in a family. Stan: Yeah. But we were over. Marshall: Yeah. Okay, yeah. Stan: I was young so I don't remember the
- Marshall: That means you're part of the family. Stan: I guess, yeah. Marshall: Yeah, we are comfortable around
you. Stan: Yeah, yeah. Cool. Marshall: What do you want to talk about,
Stan? The Habits of success? Stan: The Habits of Success. I'm working on an episode. And it started as an episode that was called
Five Habits for Success. And me and April, the writer that you recommended
to me, again. Marshall: April Erickson. Stan: Yes. We had several Skype sessions and eventually,
we came up with like 22 habits for success. Marshall: That's a lot. Stan: And so, now we are like, wow, great! Okay, that's like a two-hour episode. So, we haven't split them up yet into several
episodes. But, I think at this stage, it would be nice
to talk to you about them. Marshall: Okay. Stan: So, that's how this episode came up. Marshall: I'm worried. Stan: Should I read them? Marshall: Yeah. How many are there now, 20? Stan: I think there's 22. Marshall: Anything that adds up to 22, I worry
about though. There was a- Stan: 23. Marshall: 23. Yeah, yeah. Stan: So, is that a better number for you? Marshall: Yeah. Of course, when you've got that many, my inclination
is going to be to clump these together into groups, which I assume you've already done. Stan: That's what I'm trying to do because
if we can clump them into groups then we can make them into separate episodes. Marshall: Got it, okay. Stan: But I haven't clumped them into groups
yet. Marshall: Well, in the interest of time and
because when people are listening they say, "I don't know if I want to sit through 23." Why don't you read them rapidly? Stan: Yes. I'm just going to read them all. Marshall: Okay. Stan: And then we can choose a few because
there's no way we can talk about all of them. Okay, number one; draw from life. Yeah. Number two; draw in your head. Number three; become your own best critic. Four; get information from multiple sources. That's one that we don't have too much information
on. We might actually cut that one out. You don't want to cut that one out? Or do you like that? Marshall: No. Just keep going. Stan: Okay, cool. Marshall: We'll discuss it. Stan: Five, train like an athlete. Six, break big things into smaller things. Seven, protect your most creative time. Eight, go beyond the minimum requirements. Nine, think like a kid. Ten, research, research, research. Some of these, I don't remember - Marshall: Just kind of like thinking like
a grown-up. Stan: What? Oh! Think like kid, think like a grown-up? Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Yeah. Actually, some of these, I don't remember
exactly what we were going to say about them based on just the name of the habit. Marshall: Think like a kid has to be developed. Otherwise, it's like think like a kid, think
like a grown-up, what's that mean? Yeah. Stan: Yeah. Patience, it's 11. 12, draw things you enjoy. 13, remix your inspiration. That's one I don't remember, what that means. Marshall: No. I like that. That's the art parents thing. Stan: Mmh, you're probably right. 14, share what you learn. I think that means teach. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Number 15, spend time with other artists. 16, say, no. 17, say, yes. Marshall: Good. I was hoping there would be a counter point. Stan: Yeah. 18, make ugly drawings. You're really good at that. Marshall: I've got that one going, yeah. Stan: I am just kidding. Marshall is really good actually. Marshall: That is something I committed to
and have been committed to it for years. Stan: Oh, come on! I was kidding. Marshall: Seriously. Stan: Number 19, exercise. Number 20, draw daily. 21, finish what you start. 22, discipline. is discipline a habit? They get it, like. Marshall: Yeah, okay. Did you - Stan: No. There's twenty three. So, the twenty-third one is, master your calendar. And I think we've already kind of talked about
that before but we had a scheduling episode. Okay. Thoughts on my 23. Marshall: It's a good list. And my first feeling is like, it's just it's
hard to keep track of all of those things, so. Well, here's what happens, as you read them
and my mind races, it races in a couple directions that each one is a setup for the next one. Stan: Oh, it's not. Marshall: Say, 'no', and then say, 'yes' is
a setup. Stan: Yes. Marshall: Because truths come in contradictory
pairs. The other is that some of them need to be
elaborated. Stan: Oh, absolutely. Marshall: Yeah. So, should we put a one minute timer on each one of these things? Stan: Before I do, is there anything that
you were hoping would be on there that you didn't hear? Marshall: Hmm! It will occur to me as we go through them. Stan: Okay. So, there's the list. Before we jump into it, I wanted to talk a
little bit about, what is success anyway? Marshall: Good question. Stan: We kind of have to start with that. And to me, the person that is trying to develop
habits for success needs to first determine what success to them means. So, I see multiple things here. Is it that you learned something during the
process of making your drawing or painting? You know, it might not have become a good
drawing but you learned a lot. That could be a successful session. Is it that you would like your result or is
it that you sold your result? Marshall: Because the most successful piece
might be a piece that never sold. Stan: Sure. Marshall: Van Gogh's successes didn't sell. Stan: Well, he's just a big failure. Marshall: Yeah. I mean, he would have been branded that way
at the time. So, yes, we need to define it. Stan: Well, not we. I think everyone needs to define it for themselves
and each piece could have a different motive. Marshall: Didn't somebody ask, "how do you
set yourself up for success in the painting?" Stan: Yes. How do you set yourself up? My answer to that was going to be, "well,
what do you mean of success?" Marshall: So, the first thing to do is to
define what you mean. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Yes. Stan: If you mean that you're going to like
your result or you're going to sell it, well, the best way to set up yourself up for success
is to just get really good at drawing or painting. That's the best way. Marshall: Yeah. Connect with the market also. Even if you aren't good at drawing and painting
but you've got a market that likes this particular thing that would be successful selling. Stan: True. Marshall: Have you seen the Currier and Ives
prints? Stan: Maybe. Marshall: This is from the 19th century. Currier and Ives put together these prints
that sold everywhere in the United States. And they were a commercial success. They were the Thomas Kincade success of the
19th century. And when you look at them now, they are just
so unimpressive. But the fact that they were prints that you
could buy for a reasonable a reasonable amount and put them in your living room made them
sell gazillions of them. So, they were very successful but nobody really
looks back at them now as good art. That's an example of someone who was financially
successful even if our historians don't fawn over them. Stan: Cool. You want to jump into the list or do you have? Marshall: Yeah. Let's jump into the list. Let's do these one minute at a time. I put a-- Charlie, can you put a timer on
them for one minute? Stan: Oh, jeez! Charlie: I'll start the clock. There is no way. Marshall: We can use less than minute and
then, if we need an extra minute, we can appeal. Stan: Do we each get a minute? Marshall: No. Because you might have something to say. Stan: 23 x 2 minutes will end up being 46
minutes, total. Marshall: Yeah. That's too long. Stan: There's no way. Then we're not getting through this episode. This is going to take forever. Marshall: One minute per topic. Stan: I predict, we get through half of them
and we're like oh there's the show. [chuckle] Stick around for next week. Marshall: Go. Stan: First one is, draw from life. You begin. Marshall: Everybody says that. Stan: Everyone says that. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Well, it's useful because photographs
don't capture everything especially if you're painting. Color information is lost. So much of it is lost. Also, the ability to take a 3D object that
you're seeing and transform it into a 2D picture is a very important skill, I think. But if you're drawing from a photograph, you're
not making that translation. You're going from 2D to 2D. Marshall: And they are two different things. Stan: Yes. Marshall: Leyendecker was not into using photographs. Rockwell eventually began using photographs. Leyendecker believed that you work from the
three-dimensional thing that is in your environment, that when you move your head back and forth,
it's going to change. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Dawn Lagerberg even suggested that
Michelangelo- Charlie: That's one minute. Marshall: Minute's up? Stan: Minute's up. No. Marshall: Give me give me twenty seconds. Stan: [chuckle] That's what I thought would
happen. Marshall: Dawn Lagerberg suggested Michelangelo
was working from the figure and moving his head like this and moving his head like this
and kind of spreading it. They do have a quality like that. And you're not going to get that from a photograph
in the same way that you're going to get it when you've got this complex thing of going
from 3D to 2D. But drawing from life is what everybody--
I mean, it's one of the first things on everybody's list. Stan: And I think that drawing from life helps
you get better at drawing from photographs. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: So, anyway, yeah, cool. There's that habit. Marshall: Well, we went over a minute. Stan: We've been what? Under a minute, is that what you said? Marshall: Over a minute, yeah. Stan: Okay. We did not go under a minute. Marshall: We are not doing good. Charlie: Time works in weird ways. Stan: You're on what? Einstein time, is that what you guys - Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Number, uh, I like this one. Marshall: Okay. Stan: Number two is, draw in your head. What I mean by that is, when you're not in
the studio, you don't have a sketchbook, let's say you're driving and there's these clouds,
maybe not when you're driving. Well, I've done it when I was driving. But when you're just sitting, you are having
a picnic and there's these beautiful clouds in the sky, instead of trying to find the
pictures, instead paint a picture in your head of this thing that you're seeing. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: You know, what are the edges? Where would you put the sharp edges? Where would you put the soft edges? What color gradations would you put? How would you mix those colors? You would start making these micro decisions
in your head. You don't have to paint the whole picture. But just start making these little decisions
and making it a habit where you don't have to force yourself to paint the picture in
front of you. It just naturally happens. You look at something and you're like how
would I solve this? Marshall: Yeah. Stan: What are the simple forms of this guy? Marshall: Yeah. Actions usually come out of thoughts anyway,
an imagination anyway, so you're essentially preparing yourself to do a better drawing
by doing in the work. Charlie: That's the minute. Marshall: It's a minute? Stan: Shut up Charlie. We are having a good conversation. [chuckle] Marshall: Give me 15 seconds. Okay, now I'm going to ask for 20. When my colleagues and I were trying to be
illustrators, we would spent a long evening with Jim Lam. He was very generous with his time. And we asked him, "do you do comp studies?"
because we had been told "do comp studies, that's a responsible professional thing to
do". And he paused for a long time before he answered. I think I know it was going on in his head. If I tell them the truth, I'll be a bad influence. And if I lie, I lie. But what came out of his mouth was, "I do
a lot of comp studies in my head". And thought, you earn the right to that. You do a lot of comp studies eventually you
will be able to imagine what you would do. Stan: Yeah. So, number three is, become your own best
critic. Alright. So, what I mean by that is, you have to be
able to increase your feedback loop. We talked about the feedback loop several
episodes ago, where in order to improve, you need to constantly get feedback on your actions
to learn anything. And so, be creative with how you get that
feedback. You can't rely on a teacher all the time to
give it to you. So, for example, when I was a student and
I was really trying to improve my proportions, because it was just always off and I was getting
frustrated, I would draw from a photograph specifically for this exercise. I would then draw it 1:1 scale. And then, I would scan my drawing in so there's
no proportion distortion with my camera angle or anything. And then, I would overlay my drawing onto
the photograph and I would check myself where my proportions are off. I wasn't relying in anybody else. And I could constantly do this over and over
again at home and improve my proportions without a teacher. So, that was an improving- Charlie: That's a minute. Stan: Wow! Increasing my feedback loop, speed and quantity
with that. Marshall: Yeah. So, that's becoming your most efficient critic. That you can just you can do this quickly. You've got a feedback loop within you. You got a feedback loop with this apparatus. Stan: Yeah. So, should I remove the word best from that? Marshall: Maybe, become your own critic. Stan: Become your own critic. Okay, yeah. There you go. "Become your own critic". Marshall: And that opens up the whole thing
of how you can be too much of a cheerleader for yourself and you can also be too hard
on yourself like Rafael was. Stan: Cool. Do you have anything to add to that? I know we ran out of the minute, but. Marshall: No. That's good. Become your own critic. A lot of people are dependent on teachers. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: And a good teacher's job is the
same job of a parent, to make it so that this person doesn't need me anymore. Stan: Yeah. Number four, get information from multiple
sources. This is one I'm thinking of cutting because
I don't have too much info. But what I have on here is one of the most
useful ways to learn is from multiple sources. It's allows you to level up faster by seeing
where the information from each source overlaps. And lays the focus to your attention there
on those areas of overlap. And it's also a good way that you don't end
up being a copycat of like one artist. Marshall: Indeed. Multiple sources, multiple teachers too. Stan: You seem to be really into that one
when I was reading the list. What was it about? Marshall: Yes. One of the problems that is with multiple
sources is they can be confusing. They'll have some people say, "Don't do this.",
and another person says, "That's the key to everything." That happens all the time. Contradictory advice. So, it can be confusing. And that's where mentorship comes in because
a mentor is a person who looks at you and being your own critic, saying being your own
mentor, looking - you say, what do I need to reach my goal and then be able to discern
what is going to help and what isn't? But multiple sources helps balance you out
and it keeps you from becoming too tunnel visioned into one particular style or one
particular skill at the expense of others. Charlie: That's a minute. Stan: Cool. Awesome. Marshall: Made it? Stan: Yeah. Number five, train like an athlete. Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: So, you know, Anders Ericsson came up
with the whole 10,000 hour rule that everyone always mentions. Marshall: Yap. Stan: And I think that one of the biggest
things that they miss is 10,000 deliberate hours of practice because you can have 10,000
really crappy hours of practice and get nowhere. So, bite-sized sessions of practice. So, for example, you're learning to play basketball,
you're not just going to play a bunch of games of basketball. You do, but you have to learn how to shoot
a free-throw. And so, you'll go and you'll have a long session
of free throws, three-pointers. Sessions of just controlling the ball. Juggling. Juggling. [chuckling] really well. Whatever. You know, all those micro skills that need
to be done. Going to the gym just getting strong. Doing sprint's to get faster. Charlie: That's a minute. Stan: Oh, god. I'm trying to talk fast and this is impossible. Marshall: I know it's hard. Stan: But like let's say that in order to
get good at basketball, someone really does just play a bunch of basketball. They're not going to have the ball most of
the time. Most of the time that they're going to play
that hour session, they're just running back and forth and they're not actually using that
hour as efficiently as possible. They're just running back and forth, and then
sometimes, they'll get the ball and they'll shoot. Maybe, what? Like 20, 30 times they'll shoot in an hour? Marshall: This is a great example of a topic
that needs a whole- Stan: Okay. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Right. So, anyway, when you learning to draw, train
like that. Divide it up into specific skills that you
want to get better at and focus on them. That's, okay. Marshall: I was started to put together material
for a lecture called, "lessons for artists from the military". The military is something I never was inclined
toward and never really that interested in. But military training has a few things that
a lot of artistic training is missing, mainly, rigor. Mainly, the serious is the training like an
athlete take this really seriously. It also has some things that I think that
are not good for art students. Stan: Like what? Marshall: Deprivation and making it harder. Putting you up to the test to try to break
you essentially and so you're right back up from there. That's one of the things that I wouldn't recommend
in training. But that's the kind of thing that's necessary
when it's life or death stakes is to see how hard you can push something. But it may be that there are some people I
mean, Kim Jung Gi was in the military. And I've had students who came out of the
military that their work ethic was remarkable. There was absolutely no slacking. Stan: That's one of the other habits on here,
is discipline, that you can get out of there. Something like that. Marshall: Okay. Let's keep going then. Stan: Well, one thing before we move on is
that, I do think it's still important to play a full game of basketball on a regular basis. Marshall: It's not just practice. Stan: Yeah. Don't just break it up. You have to combine the skills as well regularly. Marshall: Okay. Stan: So, they're both important. Anyway, number six, break big things into
smaller things. Isn't that what I just said? Marshall: Yeah. And it's also the thing that as you were giving
a list of 23 things I was thinking, "okay, how can we consolidate?" Stan: This is literally what I just- well
kind of. It's not skills, it's like you break things
up like if you say I want to get good at anatomy, then you have to make that really overwhelming
task into a less overwhelming task. Like, I want to get good at arms or just hands
and just focus on that for a while because that is a lot easier than saying, 'I want
to get good at anatomy. It's like, 'where do I even begin'? Marshall: I like to begin with guy want to
get good at a stick figure skeleton. And even just make them sticks that aren't
even thick sticks, just lines. And that's a great way to get a holistic view
of the body but it's also simple enough to where you broken it down and I've got the
stick figures. Now, I'll turn them into pipes. Now, I'll turn them into boxes. Now, I'll put clumps of muscles on them. So, it's breaking something as complex as
anatomy into something that makes some sense. Once you can animate a stick figure, invent
a stick figure, you're on your way. Stan: How long do they spend on the stick
figure? Marshall: Well, it depends. We're supposed to keep- how long are we supposed
to spend on each one of these? One minute. Stan: Oh, no. Marshall: The question just opened it up. Charlie: About, there we go. That's a minute. Stan: Oh, really? Charlie: Yap. Stan: Hey, that one was perfect. Marshall: Hey! Stan: Number seven, protect your most creative
time. I think we've talked about this. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: It's like, if you're really productive
at night, do that. Make sure you got that time. If you're really productive in the morning,
don't have things scheduled during that time. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: You know, keep it or just don't fill
up that time with other things. Keep that as your creative time when you are
doing your most important things. Don't do emails during your most important
time. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Or a most creative time. Marshall: That's a big one. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: I don't have anything to add. Stan: Yeah, okay. Ding. We just blasted through that one. Charlie: 30 seconds. Stan: 30 seconds, wow! Record time! Number 8, go beyond the minimum requirements. Oh, yeah. So, it's like, if you're in school and your
teacher assigns you something, don't just do the minimum just because it's an assignment. Like, go beyond it, do more just because you
want to or because you're curious about another aspect of it or apply that lesson to your
own project. Don't just do the bare minimum because someone's
making you do it. That's the point. Marshall: It is the subversive energy of under
promising and over delivering. There's something that's actually fun about
it. Say, "I want to see how well I can do it". My favorite example, even though it's pretty
extreme, is Bernie Wrightson Frankenstein illustrations. He did, I don't know how many there were,
maybe 40, but he did a number of them that he took to finish and said "this is not good
enough". They were actually excellent. Stan: Did they make it into the book? Marshall: No. They are in another book called A Look Back. But I have them. Stan: You have it? Marshall: I mean, I have images of them. Stan: Did you bring it? Marshall: No. But we can show them. Stan: Okay, cool. Charlie: That's a minute. Marshall: Some of them- Stan: Shut up, Charlie. Marshall: Some of them would have been good
enough but he was using cross-hatching. Decided he didn't want to use cross-hatching,
switched over to the Franklin Booth technique, had a nicer technique, did some beautiful
lovely pieces like that but then decided they still aren't as good as I can do. So, he went way beyond the minimum requirement. Stan: Yeah. Did they get better? Marshall: Yes, they did get better. Stan: Wow! Okay, cool. Marshall: So, there is an example of someone
who had an inner critic that was enough to say, 'Why just do it okay? Why not do it my best?' Stan: That could just keep going forever though,
right? Marshall: It could. And it can turn into obsession compulsion
and it can burn you out. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: That's a whole other story. Stan: Okay. Marshall: Okay. Stan: All right. Okay, number nine is, think like a kid. This is one that you were confused about? Marshall: I wasn't confused about it. Stan: You were curious about it? Marshall: It's just that it's a big general
topic. Think like a kid, all I'll think about is
candy and gum. Stan: [chuckle] God damn. Do you hear that noise? Marshall: The trash. Stan: Oh, the trash man. Okay. Well, let me read this to you.
Marshall: I love the sound of trash trucks They represent relief from too much garbage. I'm okay with leaving it in. Stan: Well, I'm going to read it to you anyways,
so. Marshall: Okay. Stan: Quick, think fast. Oh, this is to you. Okay. Think, quick fast. When asked, what can you do with a paper clip,
how many alternate uses could you come up with? Marshall: My first inclination is violence
toward a brother. I'm sorry that it's that way. Stan: That's great. [laughter] How many total can you come up
with? Marshall: In a limited amount of time? Stan: 10 seconds. Yeah, go. Marshall: In 10 seconds, it can be used as
a weapon to pinprick my brother when he's giving me grief. It can be turned into a bow. It can be tied into a bow but you have to
be really good with your fine motor skills to do this. It can be used to short-circuit the electricity
in the house so that the grown-ups will have some trouble and won't give us any. Stan: Yeah. You don't have to give a reason, just give
me the uses. Charlie: [chuckle] Now you are thinking like
MacGyver. Stan: Just give me the uses, don't come up
with the reasons. Marshall: Oh, okay. It can be scrubbed around on the concrete
until you turn it into just silver dust. [chuckle] You go on now. Stan: There's literally like an infinite amount. The point of that one was that, most people
will just come up with like 10 to 15. And the 10 seconds was just for you. There wasn't supposed to be a time limit. Marshall: Okay. Stan: But most people will just be like, "I
don't know what else it could be used for". It's like it could be anything. It could be used to put in my pocket. It could be used to tie my hair. Or to connect these two cups together. It could be used as decoration around my finger. It could be used to make my nose bleed. To make myself blind. Like you can just keep going forever. You can be used to throw across the room. [chuckle] The point is that, when you get
that habit of just like thinking outside the box of what something could be used for and
just thinking in a weird way, it can make your art better. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: You can come up with solutions that
you wouldn't have thought of if you were just trying to like be logical about, okay, what's
the best thing a paperclip could be used for? Marshall: Yeah. You set aside assumptions. Stan: Yeah. Charlie: Is that how Clippy was born? Stan: Clippy? The Microsoft? Charlie: The paperclip. Stan: That seems like it's thinking inside
the box though. Charlie: Yeah. Stan: So, it gets you solutions that might
surprisingly be kind of cool. Marshall: That's a basic creative exercise
although they probably wouldn't be called think like a kid. And there will be different titles for how
to designate it. But going into the hardware store to look
for art supplies, it's a great idea. Fishing tackle, you get cheaper things that
instead of spending eighty five dollars for an art band, you'll spend fifteen dollars
for a little fishing tackle thing that fits better. But going outside of what the expected norms
are, exercises like that. Stan: I think that's really good for concept
designers, character designer, anyone that's designing anything new that's supposed to
not just be what everyone's already seen. Marshall: To see things freshly. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: See things analogically. Stan: But you were saying that it shouldn't
be like think like a kid, why? Marshall: I like think like a kid but kids
think all sorts of different ways. So, we need to- they see things freshly is
one thing. Stan: Well, April in here wrote that "researchers
say that 98% of five-year-olds are qualified as highly creative whereas only Marshall:
% of 15 year olds are qualified as well there". Marshall: Right. Well, there's another thing and that is the
social fear that happens when you've been tested. Stan: Of being weird of coming up with new ideas,
yeah. Marshall: People will have made fun of you. Whereas, when you're five years old, you probably,
if you've been in a relatively sheltered environment before you've gone out and been socialized,
you're going to dare to say things that other people are going to make fun of later but
you've been safe doing that. That's what I have observed about it. Is that you're okay. In fact, just when you said, "Things you can
do with a paperclip. Ten seconds." There is immediate, this pressure, this fear,
"what if I say something stupid?" And that's the thing that chokes it off. Stan: If you said something stupid, I would
be more impressed. That's what I was looking for. Marshall: That's right. But did you notice the dynamic that when you
said, it's because there's all of this, don't let that out, that might be a stupid thing. Stan: That one is stupid don't say that one. What's the other one? Marshall: So, it helps to do this in private
and it helps to do this or it helps to do this with someone you are completely at ease
with. I have been the most creative in my life when
with a friend on a road trip. Stan: Are you not at ease with me? Marshall: Yeah. But not when the camera is on me and you're
saying "what are the ten -" Stan: HD Camera. 4K cameras? Marshall: When I did it you, when I said that's
how you do, You do the same thing. It's and there's this tension that comes in. Stan: Shut up Marshall. I'm creative. Marshall: When you're not facing someone directly,
when you're side-by-side, somebody said that that makes a difference that you're not looking
at each other where there could be critical feedback. You're both facing the same world. And then you just start improvising. It's amazing how effortlessly and funny and
enjoyable it can be because all fear is stripped away. We're both fools. Stan: [chuckle] Yeah. Okay. Charlie, are we out a minute yet? Charlie: We are at six minutes. Marshall: [chuckle] We are at about six minutes. Stan: Six minutes? Snaps. Okay. Number ten is, research, research, research. Marshall: Research. Let's think like a grown-up. Stan: I think. Marshall: Well, no actually, it isn't. Because if you watch kids when they get interested
in something, they research, research, re- they will get every resource they can find
on it and pour themselves into it. So, that's why thinking like a kid is such
a broad category. But research, research, research, by the time
you get to responsible research, you are doing grown-up tasks. Stan: Yes. Okay. So, this one is, I don't know if it's a habit,
it's kind of - it's more of just like a step in a project. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: I don't know if this would be a habit. We might remove this one. But I think it is important. Like for example, Disney will send out animators
or designers, anyone writing the story, let's say for Moana, they sent their team to all
of these islands to learn about the culture and it became much more authentic. Marshall: Yes. A student of mine who was a very good student
and went on to- he's had a lot of success over a decade in the game industry. When he got his first job and I talked to
him a few months after he got that job and I said, "Tell me what you're observing." And he said, "Well, there's one thing that
I was not taught in school that is like one of the most important things." What's that? "Research." Most of this job is research. That's what we spend a big chunk of everything
is just finding out what this is going to look like. What that looks like. What's the real use of those things? And so, they are spending tons of time doing
that. Stan: Yeah. I do a lot of research for every single one
of my lessons. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: That's like one of the biggest part. I think we spend more time on research than
writing and production. Marshall: Yeah. So, how it applies to habits of success research,
research, research. It's not even something that you - Stan: It's not. I don't think it's a habit. Marshall: Yeah. And it's also not even something you have
to recommend to people who are interested in it. They just- think about the child who does
not do well in school but they just don't do well in school. They do great when it comes to researching
their favorite topic. Stan: Yeah. But some people don't do research and you
need to tell them like, "Hey, do a little bit more research on this and improve on it." You know, like let her know. You've taught like character design or concept
design classes, were there any students that are designing some kind of character but they
know nothing about what this character would be like? Marshall: Yeah. Stan: And you tell them, "Hey! None of this is authentic. Go figure out why things would look the way
they are first." Does that ever happen? Marshall: Yes. That happens all the time with clothes. A lot of artists don't pay attention to clothes. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Howard Pyle researched, he would
not allow a button on us a Revolutionary War coat if it was the kind of button you would
use on a Civil War coat. He cared about that. NC Wyeth less so, I'm told. That it was more- its fantasy. You know, like, I can break some of the rules. It just has to look cool. But where do we go with this? Stan: That's it. We are out of time. Marshall: Okay. Stan: All right. Are we only at number 11? Marshall: Can you believe it? Stan: Huh! I'm already tired. Marshall: Better anyway. Stan: I need some coffee. Marshall: You'll get your drug. Stan: All right. Number 11 is patience. [chuckle] Oh my god, that's funny. Marshall: Patience we're exercising it. You got one minute. You got one minute. Come on. Get going. Stan: That's so funny. Marshall: So, patience is one that a number
of the frustrated people who've sent voicemails and asked questions about, "how can I help
myself?" That's been a major theme is that you can't
expect it to happen quickly. Stan: Yeah. I think most people expect it to happen much
faster than it will happen. And the frustration, we talked about this
several episodes ago, is that the frustration really hurts your progress. If you're patient, you learn to enjoy the
process and it doesn't matter if you ever really get there because you're having fun
the whole time. Marshall: I've always sensed this about you. I've always sensed that when you are on a
project that you might not have yield from it for a year to three or more. Stan: Five? Marshall: Yeah. And that it doesn't bother you though. Or does it? Stan: A little bit but not much. Marshall: But you seem aware that if we keep
moving and Abraham Lincoln I think said, "I walk slowly but I don't walk backward." That you are at least making progress and
that over time it accumulates. And if you had just stopped it wouldn't happen,
so. But yes, I've always sensed that about you. You've got a long term view in mind. Stan: Sometimes I feel like you just come
up with a random quote and then assign like some famous celebrity to it. Marshall: No, I read. Well, that is, I didn't do my research to
look that up on the internet and make sure that it was Abraham Lincoln who said it. And that is the danger of saying this on the
podcast. Is that we are going to have a number of people
saying, Abraham Lincoln did not say that quote. Stan: We should just start crediting random
people for random quotes though. Marshall: I'll let you do that. Stan: Okay. Okay, are we done with that one? Marshall: Yeah. Stan: That one is pretty obvious. Number twelve, draw things you enjoy. I think that's an obvious one too. If you are so focused on all this like strict
discipline, constantly have to improve, like you lose the fun out of it. The reason most people start drawing is that
they liked it in the first place. And a lot of this stuff could really take
the soul out of it all. So, you have to everyone is going to go back
and just have some fun. Marshall: Ray Bradbury talked about chasing
loves. It's - that is what he did. He chased loves when he was a kid. He is got made fun of. He ended up burning his comic book collection
I think because he was embarrassed by it. And then decided that will never happen again. And that is kind of what he preached. Stan: Wait, he burned his comic collections? Marshall: His friends made fun of a kind of
comic books that he likes so, in order to ingratiate himself socially, he got rid of
it all and then decided it was a mistake and that it doesn't make any difference what the
people around me think. I am going to pursue this. And then he became Ray Bradbury. Stan: Remix your inspiration. It is the art parents thing. Marshall: The art parents thing and the elements
of style too because in order to remix, there comes a point where you have to decide which
parts line, which parts tone, which parts color, which parts texture, what kind of shapes. Stan: Share what you learn. Teaching to me was the thing that made me
improve the most because when you have to teach, you have that pressure to really organize
that information in a way that makes sense, not just to you but to everyone else. And that is a higher standard of organizing
the information. And also filling in the gaps that you didn't
even know you had. It's like when you try to explain something,
you realize that you don't fully understand it. And so, you have to go back and do some research
and figure out what it is that makes this true. Or you know, sometimes a student will ask
you questions that you don't know the answer to. You have to go and learn that. So, yeah, teaching. Marshall: Yeah. I learned anatomy by teaching. I learned perspective by teaching. I learned a lot about drawing by teaching. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: I tried learning perspective over
and over and I could not figure it out from books. It was just, my brain didn't go there. But then, when I committed that in the fall
I'm going to teach a class in perspective, back in the '80s, I had one summer to get
ready for it. And I recognized their stakes now. I have to know this. So, that helps. Robert Beverly Hale said, "A little teaching
can help you to learn on anatomy. But only a little." And that brings the other thing is that eventually
you become better at explaining it than doing it. Stan: Right. You still have to draw. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Right. Yeah, everyone thinks that I'm doing this
to help other students and it's like no it's purely selfish. I am teaching so that I can get better. Marshall: I think that the selfish motive
for a teacher, if the motive is selfish, I'm going to teach this because I love the subject. But the goal is to help the students understand
it the best they can. That's a good combination of this is, the
motive is selfish, the goal is altruistic. Stan: Yeah. I'm just kidding. Marshall: Oh, well then I shouldn't have said
what I said. Stan: No. Take it back Marshall. Number fifteen, spent time with other artists. This is the whole group thing. We talked about this a little bit at our comic-con
panel. Marshall: Uh-huh. Stan: You know, being part of a community. You guys keep each other up. It makes things that are not fun, more fun. It's easier to practice when you're practicing
with a group of people. All right? Because even if you have what you consider
a bad drawing at the end of your practice session, at least you still had fun with these
peers, right? Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: It's a lot easier to go back and do
it again tomorrow or whatever if you know you're going to have fun either way. Marshall: Mm-hmm. In The Talent Code, didn't he focus on that? That you've got the Italian Renaissance is
actually happening in Florence all within a few blocks of itself because of community. And then you've got areas where soccer teams
and hit songwriters. He talked about how you get environments where
a person who might not be considered talented, when they go into that environment become
talented because of the environment. And certainly, there is a disproportionate
ratio of people who became great comic book artists in the 20th century who came out of
New York. And even more specifically, out of the LaGuardia
High School where so many of those Mad Magazine artists went and they were learning. They were in a community where everybody was
sort of caught this fever. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Makes a big difference. I see it as a huge thing. Stan: I started doing an impression and I
gave up immediately. Marshall: Go ahead. Stan: No. Marshall: Give it another shot. You can always add it to that. Stan: I have to hear it before I could actually
do it. Marshall: An impression of what? Stan: The only cure is more cowbell. Charlie: More cowbell. Stan: More cowbell. [chuckle] Marshall: I don't even know it. Charlie: I've got a fever and the only prescription
is more cowbell. Stan: There you go. That was way better. Marshall: That was better. I don't even know the illusion. [chuckle] Charlie: Christopher Walken, Saturday Night
Live. Stan: Oh, jeez!
Marshall: Oh, okay. Say no. Marshall: No. Stan: Say no. No. You said it? Okay. Stupid. Okay, so you say no to things. I know that there was a period in my life
when I have to start saying no because too many opportunities are starting to come up. Too many people were asking for things and
I started just coming up with too many of my own new projects and it was just way too
much to handle. And I have to just start dropping things. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: And eventually, I just started saying
'no' to commissions. Like I can't do these commissions because
it is taking time away from proko. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: It's like I need to make these lessons. Sorry, I can't paint this. I can't paint your grandson, you know. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Even though it was extra money, I had
to say 'no' to a lot of different things. And I think that's important. You have to figure out what your goals are
and everything that comes your way, every idea that you have, you have to bring it back
and analyze it with your ultimate goals because it is really easy to just start going sideways. Marshall: I don't do that. Well, I say 'yes' way too much. Seth Godin said that, "What you say 'no' to
is almost as important as what you say 'yes' to. Stan: Yeah. Because if you say 'yes' to something that
was going to take you away from some other 'yes' then you're saying 'no' to that other
'yes' by saying 'yes' to that other 'yes'. Marshall: It's a default no. Yes, yes, no. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: What's the next one? Stan: Saying 'no'. Wait, no, saying 'yes'. Marshall: I said, "Yes.". I said, "Yes.", to this podcast. Stan: You did. Marshall: Yeah. That was a resounding yes. You said, "Yes." to it too. So, we did that. Stan: This one is for- this is a different
reason 'no'. A lot of people say 'no' to things just because
they think they're not ready. They're scared. Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: That's the reason you say 'yes' to things. Not just because like, yeah take on every
opportunity. It's like no, if you're scared of something
and you think it's going to be a big challenge, say 'yes'. It will help you get better. Marshall: That's why I said 'yes' to this-
that is a portion of why I said 'yes' to this podcast. Stan: Okay. Marshall: Is that, if I had said 'no' it would
have been I just don't want to be in front of a camera. I don't want to be put on the spot and have
a conversation that goes out to the world. And I thought it was fear. Stan: Yeah. Fear would have prevented great things from
happening. Marshall: It was fear. Stan: Yeah. Stan: Yeah. Oh, this one is yours. Make ugly drawings. [chuckle] Take the lead Marshall. Marshall: Yeah, that one is mine. Stan: I'm just kidding. Marshall: Well, should I tell my story? Stan: I'm just kidding. You don't make ugly drawings. Marshall: I do. Oh, you don't think I make ugly drawings? Stan: Well, no. Everyone makes ugly drawings. Marshall: Yeah, yeah. Stan: But it is not like you all your drawings
are ugly, that's the joke. Marshall: I had such terrible handwriting
in school that there were meetings with teachers about Marshall's handwriting. And when I went to college and decided I'm
going to be an illustrator, I switched from handwriting to printing because I could control
printing. And because my drawing was so sloppy, I started
doing really tight technical stuff and made my living doing that. And part of the midlife crisis was that that
is all you can do, is the careful and controlled and planned stuff. So, I started a sketchbook, 1997, and filled
it with thousands of messy drawings. And then, reached another level. And then started to realize I still got problems
and I've been going through the last ten years or so. Has been another. Just do one, after another, after another
and lose control over them. Nine out of ten, maybe ninety-nine out of
a hundred, will fail. But those few that do come together are things
that would never have happened if you had tried to do it slow motion. You're letting the randomness take over. And that is the main thing I'm interested
in right now. Stan: So, you were intentionally making them
sloppy? Marshall: Yes, I was. Which is not necessarily a good idea. Stan: Yeah. I was going to say that is a bad idea. Marshall: That's what I found out. But my thinking was that because I was so
afraid of ugly that free to do ugly was as free as I could get. But it got me into the habit of tolerating
ugly. So, my next alternative was just saying that
they've got a be done fast. Do you know about the eight minute draw? It was popularized in the cartooning book
by- I want to say, it's an Italian name. I'm sorry I'm missing it. Stan: Luigi. Is that Italian? Marshall: It's a cartooning book. And the eight minute draw is an exercise within
this book on cartooning. I would like to say the guy's name. Anyway, well, I can say it later. Charlie: It's Ivan Brunetti or Yvonne Brunetti. Marshall: You draw something for four minutes
then you take a breath. You draw it for two minutes. Stan: Wait, you hold your breath the all the
time? Marshall: Yeah, well, you've been in a state
I've got a four minute timer on me. Stan: Okay. You take a break. Marshall: You take a breath. You draw it for two minutes, you take another
breath. You draw it for one minute. Then you draw it for thirty seconds. Then you do it for I think- Stan: So, you're starting a new drawing every
time? Marshall: No. It's the same thing. Stan: But it's a different drawing. You starting over. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: You're not continuing on the same. Marshall: That is right. You are starting over. I can show examples. Stan: Okay. Marshall: The final one that you do is five
seconds. And when you are trying to draw an airplane
or two people wrestling and you've got five seconds to do it, you've got to make lines
that quickly and it's interesting how gestural those lines become. It's a great exercise. Stan: That sounds fun. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: That doesn't sound like you're intentionally
being messy. Marshall: No. You're intentionally being fast and it brings
out the part of you that is focused on 'I've got to get this done', which gets past self-consciousness. Which means that you can- sometimes those
30-second drawings end up being the best drawings. Seldom do the four, in my experience, seldom
do the four-minute ones end up being the best. Stan: I really like that. That's not really cool exercise. Marshall: Yeah. Okay. Well, that had to deal with. Let's trace back what was the issue here. Stan: Well, my whole point about saying make
ugly drawings wasn't to intentionally do bad drawings. It's to not be afraid of the failure of a
bad drawing. Marshall: Yeah, yeah. Stan: I think a lot of students get debilitated
by the fear of the failure of a bad drawing. They get demotivated. They quit. They get frustrated. It's like, "oh, you did a bad drawing? Okay. That was expected. You just started. Keep making those bad drawings". Marshall: It's like in training you have got
to get hit by a taser a few times until you know what it's like and you say, "I can handle
it." Stan: [chuckle] You are so random. Marshall: Okay. Make ugly drawings. Something you don't need to preach at me anymore. Stan: Okay. Nineteen, exercise. Keep your body in shape. Marshall: Physically exercise. Stan: If you injure your shoulder or if you
get carpal tunnel or if your back starts to hurt because you're weak, you got a weak core. Like you're not going to- it's not going to
be good in the long term to draw more an exercise less. That's my point. I think your brain is healthier if you exercise
it. Marshall: I read a creativity book years ago
that I can't remember who wrote it but the first thing this author did was, I think it
was the first chapter, is to physically exercise. How is that going to help me be creative? The claim was that it will help you do better
at everything. There's going to be- your brain is going to
work better if your body is in shape. So, I thought, okay, I'll accept it and then
go on see what else this guy's got. But there is a lot to be said for it. Stan: Yeah, as you can tell I've been exercising
a lot. Marshall: Yeah. You CrossFit. Stan: CrossFit. That was a long time ago. Marshall: I remember. I was really impressed that you- it was six
years ago that you started CrossFitting, didn't you? Stan: I like the way you phrased that. It was six years ago when you started CrossFit
as if I'm still doing. Marshall: Why did you stop? Stan: I got injured. But not because of CrossFit. Marshall: Oh, okay. Stan: It wasn't because of CrossFit. It's so funny the way it happened. It's like, I was in class and literally in
between exercises, I bent down to pick up like I don't know, my shoe or something, I
don't know what it was, and my back just gave out. Marshall: Really? Stan: Something happened. I think I was really tight. Marshall: Wow! Stan: I think I skipped like he stretching
class that week and there were some really intense heavy weights classes. And my back was just super tight and something
happened. I think I like pulled a ligament or something. And I couldn't get up. I fell to the ground, my back was like almost
paralyzed for like 5 minutes. Marshall: I'm sorry to hear it. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: You seem like you're smiling and
so everything is okay so we can laugh about it. Stan: I am fine. Marshall: Here's another thing about exercise. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: If you're studying anatomy exercise
is particularly good because you will be sore in the muscle that you're studying. Stan: Yeah, I heard that. Does that really matter? Marshall: I think it's a great idea. Stan: Yeah, but does this really connect? Marshall: Sure. When I went through Goldfinger book, took
six minutes to go through it, but I found every origin and insertion point of every
muscle on the skeleton that I own and on myself. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Except for the palmaris longus on
the right hand it's gone. I don't have it. Stan: [chuckle] Where is this? Are you missing it in both hands or both palms? Marshall: No.Just in the right hand. Stan: Oh, just in the right hand. Marshall: Yeah. And also when I exercise now, when I am sore,
I'm more aware specifically what muscle that is and which portion of it is. So, yeah, it broadens knowledge, I think. Stan: Yeah, okay, cool. Number twenty, I was going to say twenty something,
it is twenty. Draw daily. That's an obvious one. Do we even continue? Marshall: No. Stan: Okay. Draw daily. Make it a habit. You'll draw more. 21, finish what you start. I know a lot of artists that constantly start
new projects and they don't finish it because they get bored. Or about halfway through an illustration or
really any project is when it gets hard. Marshall: Yes. Stan: That's when the problem starts to happen. Your original idea, you're excited, you got
that energy and then you start doing it and that energy slowly starts to go away and you
start to actually having to put the work in and solve problems and it gets less fun. And you have to develop the habit of pushing
through that to a finish because if you constantly start new things, you'll never really do anything
great. Marshall: There is one problem with it. Sometimes, people come up with ideas, I had
this problem for years. I'll come up with an idea. I say, "Great.", I get excited, I start the
piece but it's going to be an 80 hour or 100 hour piece. And so, to keep pushing through and keep pushing
through can wear you out. And one of my colleagues told me, "you do
spend these 80-100 hour pieces". Said, "I have never in my entire career done
a piece that's taken more than eight hours. And most of them take about an hour or two." They were a little pen and ink and watercolor
things that he was well trained to do. And so, that started to lead me to where I
have to have a different style. I cannot have one of these styles that is
every piece is going to take this much time if I'm not getting paid for them. These were the ones that I was doing for the
joy of them. Stan: That comes to what you want to do. That's when you have to know have goals in
mind. If you're on the East Coast and you're doing
those 100 hour drawings and that is what you want to do, then that's fine that you're spending
so much time on it. But if it's not then yeah, why did you even
start? Marshall: Mm-hmm. And usually that's the hot point of where
the trouble is. Why start on this if you're going to get bored
with it? So, to have some criteria that says, this
is a great idea or it's not a great idea. Or this is idea that I think going to get
bored with. This one I'm going to shelve. And that way, you're generating a lot of ideas
but not yet making a commitment to any one of them. Stan: Sure, yeah. Generally ideas is good. Also, I think it's good to give up on some
ideas halfway through if you realize, okay, yeah, actually, no, I don't want to keep going
with this. But if it's a habit to never finish a project
that's a totally different thing. Marshall: Yeah, yeah. I know. You're holding yourself accountable to carry
some things through even through the awkward stages. Stan: Yeah. Just because there's a problem doesn't mean
that it's a bad idea. Most great things and difficult things have
problems that have to be solved before you finish it. Anything else? Marshall: No. Stan: Okay. 22, discipline. Marshall: It's kind of the same thing as carry
things through. Stan: Actually - Marshall: Go ahead. What's the difference? Stan: For this one, I was just going to tell
a little story. I don't know if I should mention a name. Probably shouldn't. Well, anyway, I was talking to someone and
he's a mentor to a lot of students. Not a lot but several. He does it for free. He takes people into his home where he built
a studio and he allows them to live there for free. So, he pays for their room, he pays for their
food, he provides them with art supplies and he gives them free lessons. This is like a dream come true for most artists. And there was a girl that was going through
his thing and then after like six months she was like I'm just going to quit. I'm too lazy. Marshall: Finding out how hard it was? Stan: Yeah. Well, I guess it was too hard for her. I don't think his program is necessarily like
really rigorous. He doesn't seem like a super strict dude to
me. But she just realized like, I'm just a lazy
person and I would rather just work at you know, some minimum-wage job instead. Marshall: So, this is an example of a person
who does not have discipline. Stan: Right. This is an extreme example. I just wanted to tell that story but, yeah. Marshall: In the research that Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi,
if I'm pronouncing his current name correctly, do you know who he is? Stan: No. Marshall: He put together a 400 page book
on creativity that came out I think back in the '90s. I spent months in that book. It was researched. It was not very practical but it had some
very good things in it. It had some surprises in it. One was that they found out how many people
who are domain changers, people who are extremely creative, are lacking discipline in certain
areas. And this is that say 'no', say 'yes'. That in order to succeed at this thing, I
will say no to organizing my checkbook or all of these other things or let somebody
else take care of them so that I can focus entirely on that. So, discipline is selective. I don't know that a person would want to be
disciplined about everything. It seems like it would be they will be just
even disciplined - Stan: There is a balance. Marshall: Yeah. Okay, be disciplined. That's number 22. Gosh we're so close to the edge. The anticipation is killing me. Stan: Oh, 23 is mastering your calendar. And we had a full episode on that already
so go back to that. Marshall: Okay. Stan: Unless you have something to add? Marshall: When I have mastered my calendar,
I have been my most productive. When I have not I have been my least productive. So, there is that. Having an all difference. Stan: Yeah. That's the full point. Basically, my thing is like have a weekly
analysis of your previous week and then have a plan for the week to come. Start with that. Every week, set a time and do that because
then you'll be a lot more deliberate with the time. It's not about working all the time, it's
about spending your time deliberately. It's choosing what you spend your time doing. That what it is like. Marshall: Do you do it alone? Stan: What? Marshall: When you look at your calendar and
assess it? Stan: There is a personal one that I do. And but then no, we have a scrum method that
we do at proko here where the whole team every Monday- well, not every Monday, we do a two-week
thing. Marshall: I'm interested in that. Stan: Have we talked about that? Marshall: No. Stan: No? Oh, well, I am actually was going to bring
up scrum as one of my things. Marshall: Shall we do a voicemail? Stan: Yeah, voicemails. Do we have a theme song for voicemails yet? Charlie: No, we don't. Stan: I think Marshall, we need you to jingle
something up for us. Marshall: Somebody had a great title for the
voicemails. Stan: What was it? Marshall: I think it was m-a-l-e-s or something
like that. Stan: Males. Oh my god. Male time? Marshall: Yeah. It was something like that but it was clever
than that. Charlie: Was it, Draftsmen, Draftsmale,
Draftsmail. Like going through the different spellings. Stan: Draftsmen. Draftsmale. Draftsmail. Marshall: Whatever it was, it was funny. Stan: That is clever. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: It would be a good animation but not
necessarily for audio. What would that -
Yeah. But I like that. That's the best one I've heard so far. Charlie: Draftsmail still has a nice ring
to it even if the whole preamble doesn't work. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Let's hear one of those voicemails. Voicemail: Hi. I'm Autumn. I'm 16 and I want to be a tattoo artist, um,
when I'm older. One thing I need to work on is composition
and with like such a complex and difficult canvas such as like the skin. And that can be all shapes and sizes depending
on where the tattoo would be. I need to learn how to like create a good
composition that'll work from like multiple angles. So, I was wondering if you had any like advice
or tips or exercises that I can work on to create a clear composition that would work
from multiple angles and like be dynamic and not too busy. Thank you. Marshall: This is one I could go on for a
while. Stan: Really? Marshall: Yeah. Stan: I don't have much. Go ahead. You are the composition man. Marshall: Well, also what happened with my
style is that I found out tattoo artists and I had a lot in common even though I've never
been a tattoo artist. The stuff in my sketchbook tattoo artist really
connected with and I recognized I've got a tattoo aesthetic. It's a low brow aesthetic like with graffiti. Albrecht Dürer work has got that kind of
aesthetic. And a lot of it came out of the the technical
limitations that you're mentioning here that you've got lines that have to be graphically
strong to hold this together. Subtlety is harder. Like with Albrecht Dürer wood blocks, that
you've got to have a really strong cut in line there. And so you get an aesthetic that is vulgar,
it's not subtle. Even though I know that, don't take this wrong,
I know that there are many tattoo artists who do remarkably subtle work, but the medium
itself, historically has lent itself to not being subtle. To making it so you've got skulls and things
breaking through them that that are graphically strong. But the question about composition and how
to make it look right or how, I can't remember how you phrased it. You look at the history - Charlie: Work in multiple angles because it
is the canvas of the human body. Marshall: Multiple angles. Oh, yeah. You've got a curved canvas. Charlie: Yeah. Marshall: I can't give you anything specific
on that. I can tell you this, the first thing you would
do is something we're going to devote a session to or one of these podcasts to, is to know
the history of your craft. So, look at how tattooing evolved to look
at why it looks the way it does and to get one of these collections. Taschen has a collection of tattoos throughout
history, I think, that is fascinating to look at because you're going to see almost every
problem that you're going to run into, people have run into in past centuries. And so, here's how they've solved it. So, that's the first thing, it gives you an
overview of the craft you're pursuing. And that way, you don't have to reinvent the
wheel. The second thing is to choose touchstones
from outside this world of tattooing. In fact, the things that are the most different
that you can imagine and that way you bring in new blood to it, it's the thing about mixing
the parents. I mean, what's the most extreme opposite of
tattoos? I think of Monet, I think of Renoir, I think
of some of the French Impressionists maybe, but they might not be the ingredients you
want to mix. And I think of those precious moments calendars. And I think those are about as extreme as
you could get. If you find something that is so different
from it and you look at it and you say, "Yeah, but there is this thing about it. These soft colors with these hard lines might
make an interesting combination." But get all of your touch stones around. Mucha. Mucha would be one of the first ones that
I would go to because Mucha's line is very much like an elegant tattoo style. And that way you are studying styles but you're
not just studying styles of how you put the medium down, you're studying styles that have
to do with design choices, whether to flatten things out, whether to thicken them up. When you've got curls of hair to turn them
into graphic design stuff. That's all composition. Those are compositional choices. So, that is as briefly as I can do it. Learn the history of your craft and why the
things look the way they did. And then, look at something completely unrelated
that interests you and see if you can make some breeding happen out of that. Regarding skin as canvas, you could get creative
by designing around hair tracks or around muscle fibers with or against this triations. Stan: Cool. Marshall: What do we do next? What's your thing? Stan: Oh, are you asking me? Marshall: Yeah, I'm asking you. I am figuring we are deep enough into the
relationship. Stan: Well, I think I already said this, scrum. My thing is scrum. Marshall: What is scrum? Is it a food? Stan: We have been using it for like four
years now. Scrum is a guy. No, I am just kidding. Scrum. Oh my god. Marshall: Robert Crumbs older brother Steven- Stan: Can you sing it? Marshall: Pardon? Stan: Can you sing the Destiny's Child, is
that who, scrub is a guy? Marshall: Help me out here. There's a song called sc- Stan: Oh, you didn't know my reference? Marshall: No. Stan: Oh, man. Scrubs the guy that- Charlie: TLC. Stan: Oh TLC! God damn it. Cut that shit out. Do not put in that I said Destiny's Child. People are going to hate on me so much. Marshall: I'm not worried about you. You have the power of editing. Stan: That's true. Marshall: What is scrum? Stan: Charlie has a power of editing to makes
me look really stupid. Marshall: That's right, yeah. Stan: He's going to make the timing so that
it makes me look as stupid as possible. Charlie: I will really drag it out. Make it excruciating. Stan: Anyway, scrum is not a guy that ain't
getting no love. Scrum is a method of working for teams. Of collaborating. Marshall: Okay. Stan: It consists of meetings where everyone
updates each other on what's happening. You go through these sprints which is like
a one week or a two week duration of time when you prepare a list of tasks that you're
going to do and you assign a point value to each one so that you know how much you're
doing. Shut up Charlie. It's really difficult to explain this it's
so complicated. So, you- Marshall: Does scrum stand for something? Is it s-c-r-u-m? Stan: I think it does. I forgot what it stands for. There's a book on it. I'll just go read it. Marshall: Okay. Stan: I read this like five years ago. Marshall: So, you've incinerated it now so
that when you're trying to explain it's just Stan: And we've morphed it into our own system
too. We're not super strict with following their
plan, but- Marshall: I'm really interested in it and
I feel like it would help me and I think that Stan: No. It's for teams. Marshall: It's for teams yeah. But that's okay. Stan: Okay. Marshall: Classrooms are kind of like teams. Stan: Oh, well, mmh. Marshall: Maybe not. Okay. Anyway, you haven't helped me much. Stan: Okay. Hold on. So, every two weeks or every week or however
long you decide that your sprint is, you come up with a list of tasks that you think you
can complete in those two weeks. Not just like a giant list of stuff you have
to do, but it's like I need to finish these things and you prioritize. Anything that you want to do but you can't
fit into that sprint you put into your backlog. And you have this giant backlog that eventually
has to get done. But you prioritize every sprint, what has
to be done. And there's points and assigned because that's
how you know how much you could do. Because you say this one is kind of like three
points because it you know this is how complex it is. You compare it to other tasks that you've
done. This one's ten. This one was really complicated it's 21. It was that Liberace? Who is the Pumagachi? Charlie: The Fibonacci sequence. Stan: Fibonacci, Yeah. You use 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, whatever, you
keep going. You assign points to that. And if a number becomes too big like over
21, you break it up it's a smaller numbers, small task. Anyway, that's too hard. I'm going to stop now. Marshall: You described it very badly but
it sounds great. Stan: Oh, god. Marshall: It sounds great. I want to know more about it. Stan: If you are part of a team that is unorganized
and there's so much to get done that everybody is confused and you need some kind of order
read the scrum book. You'll love it. It will help you in your team. Marshall: Okay. So, I'm going to see if I can outdo you for
our reporting our thing for making it lack even value. [laughter] Charlie: Wow! That is harsh Marshall. Stan: I am proud of you. Marshall: Why? Stan: Because you're finally being mean. Marshall: Oh, yeah. Yeah. It just cropped up out of me that it just
took like four minutes to not get what scrum was. [laughter] Stan: Okay. It really takes me messing up a lot for you
to be mean, right? So, that's what you're saying. Marshall: Yeah, you've earned it. Stan: [chuckle] Okay. Go ahead, what is your thing? Marshall: This is an abstract idea but it's
this, when you asked me what my thing was several episodes ago I said it was Ken Burns
the West. And I had only seen that documentary once. Stan: Okay. Marshall: Well, since then I've watched the
entire thing again. It was even better the second time. Stan: Are you really reusing your thing? Marshall: No, I'm not going to reuse it. It's I am going for an abstract concept. If you ask me a few months from now, I'm going
to say I watched Ken Burns the West again. And this will go on for years. And I've realized that this really is my thing. It's the kind of thing other people don't
do. When I was a kid my parents told me that I
used to sit in front of the record player and play a record over and over and over and
over countless times and over years too. I still do this. I watch movies. There are a number of movies that I've seen
about 30 times partly because I watched them with students and show them every semester
in a class. But sometimes, it's just because it's interesting
to go back over them that many times because some things yield the more you go out there. I read books multiple times over and over
also. So, that's my thing. Stan: You are cheating. Marshall: Why? Stan: And now your insult really doesn't have
any ground to stand on. Marshall: How did I cheat? Stan: You reuse the thing. Marshall: No. I didn't. Ken Burns the West was not my thing here. My thing is that I watch things over and over
and over and over. Stan: That's skanch. All right, whatever. I'm just kidding. I do like that idea. In fact, I was thinking about that my son
was watching Teletubbies and I was watching it with him. And they repeat the same clip over and over
again. In the same episode they play like the same
like three minute clip like five times. I was like wait, why are they cheating? They can't do that. They literally just made like a five minute
episode and drag it on for 30 minutes just because the kid won't notice. I think Melissa was like, "No. That's the thing." Like, "Kids need repetition." Marshall: Yeah. Stan: And I was like, "Okay, cool." Marshall: Well, I feel like one of the tests
of a movie, one of the tests of a book, is is it worth multiple readings? And if it is if something's worth reading
three, four, five, six, seven, times there's got to be something in there that this is
this is rich it yields. Stan: I think but for kids though, there's
something about actually seeing the same thing multiple times that there's other value in
it. I don't know. Just the concept of repetition in itself is
a thing. Marshall: Well, I feel like we've sort of
- Stan: We're done. Marshall: Let this balloon deflate to where
now it just sits there as a sad wrinkly thing. Stan: Are you describing yourself? Marshall: I don't know how to end now. What do we do? Stan: We're done. Marshall: Okay. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Good. Stan: Five star review on iTunes, that's a
must. If you haven't done that yet, you are bad
at instructions. Marshall: But that would be your thing. Five stars whether they deserve it or not. Stan: Oh, yeah. Five star review not just a rating.They have
to say something worth five stars. Like this is the best podcast ever. I've replaced all my other podcasts with this
one. Marshall: It helps you feel superior. Charlie: Repetition of this podcast. Stan: Oh, yes. Listen to it multiple times. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Cool and what's the comment for YouTube? Which is your favorite and habit for success
that we went over? Marshall: Oh, I've got an idea for this. Stan: You have a change of mind? Marshall: Yes. Change yours. Take these 23 and this means that will get
past the flippin com- I mean, I'm not going to pay attention to flipping comments. I want the ones that people are going to put
some energy into this. How would you take these 23 and group them
into five or fewer? Stan: Oh, Jesus, you want them to do my job. Marshall: Yeah, yeah. Stan: Thank you Marshall. I like this idea. Marshall: How would you revise this to get
it down to the simplest thing possible because it's easy to keep adding things onto it? It's hard to see if you can get that list
down to something smaller. Okay. Yes, sorry. Stan: All right. Thanks guys. Will see you next week. Go ahead and do my job and help me figure
out how to break up these habits in the next couple episodes Bye. Marshall: Sorry.
