Communication Mastery for Fathers with Chris Voss

welcome to the dead edge podcast I'm Larry Hagman or your host and founder of this show ah I'm excited today I'm a fanboy of today's guest and that is best-selling author and also chief hostage negotiator for the FBI Chris Voss has written the book never split the difference negotiate as if your life depended on it you're probably scratching your head being like Larry why do you have the former chief hostage negotiator the FBI on your podcast what does this have to do with me what does this have to do with being a father and a husband if you're a human being trust me you will enjoy today's show because it's not just about negotiation it's literally a crash course in communication and the psychology of communication and as my guest likes to he has coined the term when you negotiate properly you allow the other side to have your way I mean so when you're dealing with kids that are wanting to fight you at every pass if you're trying to empathize with your wife communicate with her on a more leaf level if you're trying to even communicate better within the workplace this podcast is for you I promise I have read Chris's book probably I think 18 times I've listened to the audiobook probably six times or I'm sorry 12 times I've read his book like six times I don't know I lost count I've keep reading his book over and over I actually joined the app masterclass just because I wanted to hear Chris's lessons I've probably have watched that about five times already I love everything that this man does so Chris he what he actually got his start on the Kansas City SWAT team he injured his knee and had to start a new career path his application to become a negotiator was rejected at first in his younger years but he was determined to get the job no matter what he began his training and acquired most of his experience working on a sua Side hotline it's he definitely says that that gave him the in-depth crash course on emotional intelligence he learned how to deal with people who were irrational and keeping them so keeping himself from getting emotionally engaged he ended up becoming the chief hostage negotiator for the FBI and has worked over 150 international incidents yeah this guy's got some experience so today what I did is I took Chris through a lot of the lessons that he teaches and what it means to us as husbands what it means to us as fathers so you're gonna hear why wouldn't we why when we ask a question we want to get the other side I'm talking about our wives being the other side of kids you actually want the other side to say no instead of yes everybody always wants people to say yes you actually want people to say no and he shares why from a psychology standpoint why he's also going to talk to us about tactical empathy where people feel most connected to us and most comfortable talking to us so you're gonna hear about tactical empathy you're also going to hear why we want other people to never say you're right does this sound familiar you kids be like you're right dad you're right you actually want people to say that's right when you're talking with them that's right not you're right you're also going to learn about three yeses so you'll learn that about that as well and you're also learned literally what happens to brain chemistry when you are communicating with people on a high level and what's what's actually triquid what's actually firing in their mind so gentlemen Chris's work has literally changed my entire life and has changed many of the guys in our community and our mastermind their lives what he teaches it's not manipulation what he teaches is how to communicate effectively and gives us a real skill set to do that so today I just like i'ma listen to the show over and over myself not to hear me but to hear him all right gentlemen no more talk for me here's my interview with dude this guy is the man at the myth the legend the former chief hostage hostage negotiator for the FBI mr. Chris Wallace Chris Voss I asked you if you had any objections or anything preventing you from coming back on the show and you said no so is that what got you back why yeah Wow holy cow that's how you got me back on you ask me no I didn't question you brilliant man hey as we were chatting right before we get started here you've changed my life man I'm raising four boys 14 12 six and four I lead a mastermind community full of dads and fathers today as we record this is actually the 50-year anniversary of the dadoes podcast Wow thank you but you you have literally changed the game of every interaction that I have with people and my wife tactical empathy I swear has just like elevated our relationship in so many different ways so I know your expertise obviously is business and relationships but on a personal level these skills man I've read your book probably 12 times I've listened to it probably another 12 times I joined masterclass just so I could you know hear the lessons over and over again on a more video level it has changed everything so thank you yeah man that's really cool that is really gratifying to hear hey I appreciate you sharing it with me how are you bad I want to get started here just in case the men had not heard your first interview from a couple years back but just remind everybody I'm always so curious I don't even think I asked you this on the first show which is I'm always so curious since this is a dad show what was the relationship with you and your father or you and your parents and your childhood like growing up yeah well you know my dad um tough hard-nosed hard-working high integrity guy and so not long on a lot of words but very group and it can do figure it out environment I mean like literally he handed me and my older sister my sister Kathy about a year and a half you know just short two years older than me he said he won on a new garage in the backyard and I I'm like 11 years old and she's 13 he hands us crowbars and says go tear down the garage yeah so you don't figure that my whole life my father's approach to life was here the figure stuff out or card roll-up-your-sleeves if it needs do and do it and if you don't know how to do it figure it out cuz somebody else gonna have to figure it out and that's really the environment that I grew up in my father was very high integrity guy the other thing I didn't realize at the time the environment I grew up in and my my parents why they chose that environment very non-judgmental I mean I think bad attitudes whether they be towards the world other people you know the sort of taught in the home I didn't realize for example ethnicity I mean there was no discussion whatsoever about other ethnic groups other religions I mean we you know we went we went to church we had our religion but was never the expense of anybody else it was never anything I learned that was a expense of anybody else so consequently you know I didn't know that I was any different thing buddy else I looked back at people I grew up with in high school you know I now know there was a Hispanic kid I had no idea it was Hispanic because nobody talked about it you know I now know the day I went to school with a mixed-race kid you know black him and buy your wife as my son would say because he's black and white you know I didn't know you know it was Roger it was it was Steve it was it was Victor you know we didn't know so it was grown up in Iowa small town of Ireland blue collar and Vine was a great place to grow up great place to grow up that's a man what was your mom like stay-at-home mom you know sort of like classic stay-at-home mom which meant if she get paid minimum wage for all the work that she did nobody could ever have afforded her kiss right they don't mom that's excuse me you know that's a 24/7 day and that with no days off you know minimum wage double time overtime holiday pace they don't moms don't get that stay-at-home mom took care of us nurtured us grew us you know taught us stuff you know many of the truisms is saying that i either picked them up from my dad or my mom I mean one of the the voice in my head is my mom's voice but it's also in my son's head also because he spent a lot of time with my folks growing up you know one of our favorites the road to hell is paved with good intentions and that's you know intentions without actions I'm you know my mom drilled that stuff into its morals to do the right thing but all that stuff Midwestern you know be home in time you know my mom had if it was dinner time she had a whistle you know the whistle had this penetrating sound wherever we were in the neighborhood you could hear it you heard that whistle it's time to get home that was my mom and you just you just light up and when you talk about your family and your childhood that's that's pretty cool it sounds like you see there we go sounds like you had a really it's crazy it's just second nature but it does it sounds like you had a really good up ring good experiences it's it's rare yeah it doesn't happen to everybody so that's great yeah you know I'm somewhere I think I called it two lines of code for lack of a better term you know everybody's got two lines of code is you know the computer code somewhere in our in our in our data bank somebody put two lines of code in us the kind of guidance for the rest of our lives and ideally those two kinds of two lines of code whatever they are you know or optimistic like I I never felt like there were any limitations on me you know my mom said something my dad said something me I don't know what it is I get two lines of code of me that there's like work hard and and you'd be shocked at what you could do so and if we don't like the two lines of code that enter our head you know in today's day and age if you want to seek out somebody that could get you help you go in there and rewrite that two lines of code it's there those resources are there you know this is what this is one but it's not the only one you know we get turned on to a lot of great reading that you know I got I get Steven collars book over here for a recent Steven Kotler stuff is phenomenal I mean you want to get better go out and find a way to get better and whatever your challenge is to succeed with people which is I think while you and I resonate so much together because you would describe an earlier the application of these ideas to your family life and the successes you described are describing with your wife succeeding with your wife succeeding with your kids you know not at the expense of the people on the other side and that and you got a you got a sixteen with people I agree with that especially being a husband you want to fix everything you know what you want to just jump in and problem-solve you don't you don't want to be that empathetic year your work has really helped me to just follow a very distinct pattern you know when my wife is talking I really listen into two key words and things that she's saying our body language her emotions and I always my response she laughs about it now but she also loves it you know I start the next sentence sounds like feels like looks like and then I usually just insert whatever emotion that I think she's going through and then empathize with her because I truly do I just didn't know how I didn't know how that communication what that communication looked like so now it's like sounds like you're really frustrated and I can I wholeheartedly understand because being quarantined in kovat 19 and these kids are always here and someone's always talking and they need chocolate milk and I literally think I would drive myself to absolute insanity and instead of trying to fix a problem I'll simply ask something like what's the best way I can support you right now what feels right and sometimes she'll just give me the answer back you know I'd really let go for a run can I just kind of go for a run and like hey get out of here but it's it's so much better than what it used to be it's like well you should do this and you should do that I used to all over right exactly exactly so that's that's really helped and same thing with my kids I used that same you know tactical empathy with them and really I think it just allows them to feel seen and heard and with what I've noticed you know this and we'll go through some skill sets here cuz I obviously want to give the audience some some serious value but the mirroring I don't ask that I don't hardly ever use the word y anymore and I used those three words and and that you know so if my kid comes homes like this homeworks driving me crazy my homeworks driving crazy instead of me like why is it driving you crazy like your life is perfect all you have to worry about is homework you know and that yeah you know the in fact turn your light off the electric bills do what happens is I'll use that you know like homeworks driving you crazy and they'll just go into detail about like things that are going on and I'm just like I just love it man so cool yeah it's great so if you don't mind I would just I'd love to dive into some skill sets and and obviously share with the audience I first one I want to talk about is always getting the person to know first and I have spent years in sales and what I can tell you without is a cool dude right there I got I get another that cool dude it this is Lawson Lawson do you want to say hi to Chris Lawson what how are you man okay good yeah say last thing I'll say hi to Chris hi fish hey man how you doing what's going on today you gonna tell me what's going on yeah yeah what's going on today okay good all right cool cool it's fun but having dad around all the time huh maybe maybe I don't know it isn't how much trouble easy man yeah that is uh that's my six-year-old he he keeps us on our toes he's he's like the Chris Farley of the family he's hilarious is an absolute comedian so thank you thank you yeah so getting getting the person to know and I think if anybody has a sales background is human nature in general we want people to say yes but you teach no which I I never understood it and after I read your book like for the 17th time and started you know app using it all over the place I've definitely found the advantage with that but what is the what's the human psychology around that yeah it's it's crazy what a difference that makes all right so there's this there's this really bad advice out there that if you get somebody saying yes that creates a momentum and they got to keep saying yes and then secretly underneath that is on some of that advice it says that each guest is a micro agreement which acts as a tie-down so that as you tie them down then you walk them to the big yes to commitment yes and they have to say yes because they've been saying it made it feel good to say yes after all because it feels good to hear yes so must feel good to say it which is not true but you know you got them you know the consistency they have to say yes I mean there's there's all this really bad advice around it and you know before never split the difference I mean the steadiest bestseller out there on negotiation was getting to yes as if it was the Holy Grail you know the the ultimate goal and it's not I mean it's just tie downs first of all it's such a violation of this idea called our autonomy now we will die over our our autonomy the first thing the first time that I started getting out of this is an idea and understanding it I ran across the book back in 2002 called start with know by Jim Keenan Jim ultimately became a friend and collaborator with him - and all his sons in in that business and I remember looking at that and I passed the book passed it on the bookcase in the airport I'm like what start with no I thought you were supposed to start with yes and I wouldn't I looked at I got if this book is one idea in it that I like I'm gonna buy the book and so and he said people will die to preserve their right to say no they'll die for it because it's their autonomy because otherwise they feel like they've been coerced like they've been taken hostage and I remember thinking like this is a business book this we know this in hostage negotiation there is not one single hostage negotiation skill not one we were trying to get the other side to say yes I mean we ought early avoid it because it's useless work you know are you gonna let the hostages go yeah sure sure him yeah that's not true it's a it's a useless word so when I saw the camp had it and his old idea and start with no was just make him feel free to say no let him know it's okay to say no and he would start as negotiations out saying you could say no at any times stop me whenever you want he called it preserving the right to veto someone protecting their autonomy said it was a human nature driver and all behavior not just hostage and so at some point in time we like wow what would happen if instead of letting him know it's okay to say no what would happen if we got him the same would it have the opposite effect they would open them up and that's one and we decided to try you know you can have an idea but you got a road test that baby data improves design find out what happens and people started using it and instead of making massive differences I mean not tiny differences significant differences in every outcome and my company you know the Black Swan method is a poor part of that is applying this emotionally intelligent advantage of what happens when somebody says no they feel safe they feel protected they're ready to move forward with you it's crazy yeah they feel in control like I remember your your example in your book is like so do you like a clean glass of water yes I'm sure you like a clean glass of water as much as I do is that correct you're like all these yeses right you automatically are like where's this going get me off this phone now I feel exactly yeah yeah well the guy that stops you in the airport or on the street he's got a petition and it says do you like clean water and you go like get away from me I know what you're doing I'm not gonna yes you into this I get that I've noticed that even with a so as a father like with my kids you know they they seem to were really big on choices and in the family as far as like would you like to do your homework an hour and 15 minutes you know just things like that you know I'm gonna brush your teeth now or a commercial time when we want to drop the hammer and be like dude clean your room right now what I'll notice is is I get a much better response and I seem not only do I get a better response but then I get action on top of it it's like I've asked you to clean your room is there anything preventing you from doing it right now and they'll be like no I can do it right now so I it's it's interesting or like you know do you have any objections doing your homework before dinner that way we can all hang out as a family before after dinner things like that that getting even the kids to say no it seems the response is better don't want it used to be what's really cool about your perspective on that too is the critical issue is what sort of action do you get after agreement and you you pointed out that you get better action on top of it and that's what everything is about right you know with your kids get them to do their homework whatever you're trying to get them to do with everybody that you interact with the real issue is what happens after you think you guys have some sort of agreement over what you're gonna do the action is critical without action you know the agreement is completely useless because a lot of times I get you know if I ask the other way excuse me I see myself momentarily I apologize for blowing everybody's ears that let me fix this for I finish this no you're good man you know people like me that have allergies in today's corona virus pandemic you know like we might be sneezing at the at the dust in the air and a thousand people around us to go running away in our I know right it's like wait a second that guy's not wearing a mask safety glasses or rubber gloves and he sneezed he obviously has it you know I want to share a story with you on we'll do this later on with with the one line or email because I've got a great story about that where I coached a guy to to do this and he was terrified to do it we'll get to that in a moment but I also want to I want to talk about the three types of yeses since we're talking about the no cuz you're right the the whole action of like hey is there anything preventing you from cleaning room right now no there's not and usually I see action that follows that when I say hey can you clean your room like and they're playing PlayStation yep go down there 15 minutes later hey are you gonna clean your room yeah so there's like you say your dogs and and but there's no say yes to you you'll go away yeah I'll go away so can we go over the three types of yeses yeah perfect man yeah it's a the commitment confirmation counterfeit and because of this whole yes momentum nonsense or momentum selling we're so used to people trying to lure us into the complement to the commitment yes be a confirmation it's so overdone that the counterfeit yes is out there I mean the counter tree yes is a currency somebody either trying to pump us for information or as a child might want to get us to go away you know you get a lot of sales people to go away you get whatever counterpart is annoying buzzing they won't go away give them counterfeit yes you know and they'll feel good because it's great to hear yes and that's what people really miss in the dynamic how much of a crack head they offer yes to realize what just happened what just happened is yet again made me go away the other guy made me spill my guts you know give the counterfeit yes you know before we really outlined the three County yesterday I remember saying to a lot of business people have you ever been given a yes willing to find out later it was a no and any business person that's been in business more than six minutes will go like boy I've been suckered by that a whole bunch of times so yeah the counter for yes because there's yes momentum nonsense the currency out there is a counterfeit yes and it is just like counterfeit money just try and go in cash your counter for 20 in a bank they're gonna hand it right back to you the counterfeit hunter they're gonna hand that baby right back to you it's not gonna go anywhere yeah that that chapter on on the three yeses and the no has added so much clarity in our life especially in parenting but also interacting with others as well I would love for you to talk about tactical empathy and if we could also insert why it's important to have certain tonality in our voices and just to share some insights on you this this skillset that I've learned from you and your books a master class man it is like near and dear to my heart because not only does it do I feel the other person has connected with me and they feel comfortable with me but it has for me if I'm going to use tactical empathy I'm hanging on every word that that person is saying so I'm listening like more intently and I'm listening for words and body language and all these other things so it's actually made me a better listener by using tactical empathy Wow which is exactly I mean that's perfect it's a perfect application of it and it's a self-reinforcing skill so all you gonna do is get started on it and then suddenly you're getting better I mean it's awesome so your original question you know what is this thing what is this thing called love what is this thing called tactical empathy you know first of all it's understanding what empathy really is to begin with empathy is just demonstrating and understanding demonstrating an understanding how you demonstrate an understanding your utter it you speak it you articulate it you got a layout you don't say I understand that's not demonstrating anything that's actually giving words to what you believe the other side's perspective is what is their point of view showing the words to understand it's empathy to begin with it's not sympathy and it's not agreement I can say you know you feel like I'm a jerk I didn't agree that I that you felt that way I didn't say it was accurate I didn't admit to anything I simply demonstrated an understanding of your observation your perspective in a moment you feel like I'm trying to take advantage of you you feel like you feel like I'm not listening whatever it might be you know what's in your gut instinct that you're worried that you wouldn't want to say to them that but deny it instead the two millimeter shift is from from the denial to the observation if you want to say I don't want you to think I'm a jerk I don't want you to think I'm taking advantage of you you should instead say you probably feel like I'm a jerk probably feels like I'm taking advantage of that's a two-millimeter shift from denial which is bad to just empathy and we put the word tactical in front of it because in today we have neuroscience to back this up you know we've really progressed me on psychology to neuroscience we can watch the chemical reactions and we know from neuroscience that if you're harboring a negative thought and the thought just is openly addressed the elephant in the room you know don't treat it like Baltimore you know he should not be named you know we don't want to act like this is Baltimore here right we do want to act like it's the elephant in a room you don't get rid of the elephant in a room by either denying that it's there or pretending it's not there you get rid of the Alif in the room by saying like yeah there's an elephant the room there it is right there and as a matter of fact you're even more effective against the elephant of the room by saying like that's a horrible elephant I mean that that elephant you probably feel like the elephant is gonna squash it that there isn't any room for you that you can't breathe and if I overemphasize the fearsome nature of the elephant instead of you going like oh my god oh my god oh my god and losing control your reaction is gonna actually be the opposite you're gonna be like alright it ain't that bad you know yeah it's there but yeah yeah as a matter of fact now that you talk about how bad it is I gotta tell you something I'm not the least bit intimidated by that elephant I mean that's really the way in reality that it goes and so let's let's take advantage of what we learned let's be willing to be smarter today than we were yesterday let's be willing to learn that calling out negatives even proactively is a ridiculously effective way to communicate with me I've known that I've seen that to be really useful as well especially if I'm gonna talk to my wife about something like aw I'll use that elephant in the room tactic and what I noticed is it if I go to my wife and I say hey can we talk for a minute and she was like you know like way she gets that look right guards up guards are like this right and then back but when I say something like I want to share something with you and you're gonna think I am absolutely insane and when I pose like that now she III cuz I've tested this she'll look at me with curiosity like what are you gonna say you know versus like what we talk about well what's gonna happen you know like there's that uncertainty yeah it triggers a curiosity yeah hey use here's what's really cool about your observation of that dynamic see genuine curiosity is actually a highly positive state of mind it's when people are telling us I need a hack you know how do I keep from getting upset how do I do a better job listening and the short answer is like be curious curiosity in point of fact there's a highly positive state of mind you can take in more information you can't be curious and angry at the same time it's it's actually not possible genuinely curious and curiosity has a tendency to crowd out anger in a really interesting way and it's that's the first time I've heard somebody point out that dynamic of the triggering of curiosity and the other side that's really interesting I mean that's that's a powerful it's a powerful skill tool dynamic to bring to bear on a conversation it really aid you in so many ways it's cool it really does it sort of sets the stage for a more fruitful conversation versus like we need to buy some serious you know and I'm gonna back up a little bit to because you uh talk to me about tone of voice yeah yeah yeah and your tone of voice is phenomenal I mean you get you you have a great combination of a downward inflecting supportive and voice supportive voice and just the way that you posed you know you did the example of the way you pose it to your wife is actually a rap I mean that's the way you would want to perfectly say it you know the way you said it is an accusatory it's it's almost playful and the other that and that brings in another positive elephant element because it's not emotions that are bad for our performance and our decision-making it's negative emotions I mean one of the reasons why I'm a big fan of sky over here Steven Kotler he's one of the world's leading experts on the mind state of flow and flow is you at your top level of performance and I've learned a lot about flow and applying flow in business and he says flow is a highly positive State of Mind highly positive you're smarter and there's a there's a number of other data sources to prove that you're smarter in a positive frame of mind you can take in more information your pattern recognition increases your endurance all those things increase in a highly positive state of - one of the reasons why a lot of people that are telling us to game up to buy something game a fie and an effort and suddenly you find yourself you get better at it faster I mean this is all a positive frame of mind and you can trigger that in somebody else based on your tone of voice and your tone of voice especially when you were given that example of posing something to your wife borderline Don playful which then it's gonna be contagious and it's gonna work it's gonna work for both of you and to both of yous advantage not just to your advantage but also to your counterparts as well so I mean that's that's cool I can go on forever about this right I love it man thank you he literally just made my whole week I think just by sharing that thank you very much so we've gone over voice tone we gone over the know we've gone over tactical empathy the other really cool thing too since you know our platform in our community we we we have married men mostly for the most part come and do life with us and a lot of the things that we we help men with is communication and when we talk about tactical empathy some guys and I'm sure you've you've gone through this with a fine-tooth comb some guys would be like well if I'm empathetic that means I'm I agree with her whoever no matter how crazy it is I it's like I'm agreeing with it when we're like no no no like it actually isn't if you if you read the book never split the difference empathy is not agreement it's you're you you're in the trenches you you're connecting with that person you're feeling what they're feeling but you don't agree with them and you have a great example in your book about how you've had to deal with terrorists and hostage situations and their reasoning behind taking someone hostage for ransom makes total sense to them right right right yeah and and that's the critical issue to really unleash your empathy superpowers your emotional intelligence superpowers your tactical empathy superpower separate empathy from agreement and you have started to unleash it and a and another example I mean headed headed terrorism trial in New York City had way back when late mid mid 90s armed terrorists badass terrorists in civilian court convicted them all which means first of all you can do with terrorism trial and open civilian court but the majority of our witnesses were Muslims who voluntary tests that fall entirely testified we had no hammer arm no coercion no leverage negotiated their volunteer voluntary testimony against a Muslim cleric just because your cleric doesn't mean you won't commit a crime and this guy committed a lot of crimes how do you get a member of a religion to voluntarily testify against one of the leaders in that religion who has been a criminal every one of them might sit down with and I'd say you believe that there's been a succession of American governments for the last 200 years that have been anti Islamic and every one of them would go yeah and that would be the first step to that negotiation I never said that I agreed or that it was fair or that it was accurate I just said you believe you know and and I said it like I wasn't afraid of it you know he is your truth you know you can't handle the truth I can handle your truth I can handle your truth so well then I'm not afraid to speak it out loud because I feel so unsecured in my position that suddenly I gotta give in we didn't give in to any of those guys not one of them and they all voluntarily testified and none of them regretted it as a matter of fact almost to a person they came up to us afterwards and congratulated us on our integrity which is where you want to be in every negotiation you know don't be afraid of how they see things and leave them in a position that when it's all said and done no matter how it came out they are impressed with your integrity that's where you want to be with everybody spouse child colleague but especially with a spouse because which your spouse wants integrity from you they looking for understanding or they're not looking for agreement they're looking for understanding and they're looking for you to maintain your integrity and understanding those fine lines because then they know that you are always gonna be there for ya I think it really provides just a safe environment for them right where they could say things and that man is gonna stand strong be there in there with and be there in the trenches with them whatever it is that they're feeling but also not get the feathers ruffled because of it yeah exact you're gonna say that's right weren't you that's right that's right amen so I'd love that so I want to ask you a question about the thing that I've struggled with the most is and I don't know what I'm missing maybe I need to go back and read the book again but I'm really struggling with that that's right and there's a distinct difference between and I actually saw this unfold on a coaching call that I had with a client and I was we were going back and forth and I wanted to get him to the point where he was saying that's right and unfortunately he kept saying you're right you're right and I could tell because I've read your book I was like he's not buying this right and it was an observation about him you know and what he was going through and he kept saying yep you're right you're right I could tell he was you're writing me just to hear just so he he was telling me what I want to hear and I thought I did I stopped but he tell me that so you will stop right I'm ready tell he's trying to get you to he's trying to get you to shut up all right so I tested something it was probably the wrong thing to do I was like well am i right or is that right and he's it's like what so anyway it's it's one skill set that I've had just a really hard time with is understanding the that's right versus you're right I understand it but I don't know how to get the person to that that's right you know it's interesting because it's that's a tough one getting people from there to bridge the gap from being able to label in mirror to the other side to get it that's right that's that's that's a bit of a leap in skill level and it's hard a lot of people struggle with that we see that on a consistent a regular basis how much so your initial question somebody saying your right to you they're not body to some degree either a little or to the point where they just want you to shut up they're not bought in because when they say you're right there they're putting some distance between themselves and what was just said when somebody says that's right they've embraced it completely in many cases what you've actually done is you've triggered an epiphany in the other side it was an observation from cause our co-author the book is really me my son Brandon & Tall collaborating Brandon to get his name on a book mistake that I were regret for this static you know publisher signed a deal with me Brandon helped write the book but and Brandon Brandon's your son right Brandon brands my son Brandon Brandon is a superstar negotiator runs my company cuts phenomenal deals he's so good at it now he's training people will bring it on but but making that leap from from your right to that's right Paul said when somebody says that's right you trigger an epiphany in the other side what happens when you trigger an epiphany there's a neurochemical response among the chemicals they get dumped into your system when anybody says that's right when the experience an epiphany is oxytocin which is the bonding drug which is why you want to get it that's right out of somebody because you want them to feel bonded to you you want to trigger the empathy response from the other side towards you and it's actually a chemical reaction and you get a you're right when you're expressing an opinion that you probably believe to be true you probably believe to be accurate you're making a value proposition you're making an argument you're trying to get somebody to see something by laying it out to them you know that's right when you express fully express their point of view particularly the negatives we talked about the negatives before the negatives are an essential element probably having to do with you if you're getting your right versus of that's right you probably need to put some bad-mouthing of you in there there's something about you that's making them feel defensive that's making them put this you're right shield up to keep a distance between the two of you and if they're doing that there's something about you that's triggering their defense mechanisms that's right is worth its weight in gold which makes it worth just going struggling for and keeping it as an objective because it is a game-changing moment when you go to that try it out of the outside yeah I I agree that that is as that I can understand now just you saying that's that's a leaping leaping skill set I can definitely understand that except that's been the hardest one without a doubt well when and when I'm practicing it myself because it takes practice I mean I'll you know back in the days when we were taking a list which will come back okay he's taking a lip anyway because the lift driver doesn't want to risk it and the virus from you but I would work on getting to that's right out of a lift driver and if I was out of practice then I wasn't able to draw it out of I mean it you get it takes practice it's and it's worth the effort it's worth the effort yeah yeah I I agree yeah I definitely understand it a little bit better and I'll achieve it you've explained especially the Epiphany and the the he said oxycodones all right I think those oxytocin I'm thinking of drugs yeah a natural drug right but I didn't know it was on that level that's that's how deep it went but that added a lot of clarity to it I want to share a quick story with you before we wrap up here and I want to make sure also the men can get to your resources and they enjoy it as much as I have over the past couple years has been a game changer so I had a good friend of mine who was working on a very big deal for a hospital he's medical sales rep and was working on a big deal and he was right at the cusp of getting approval to bring this product in for evaluation yada yada yada and he just couldn't get the hoe our director to reply to any emails hey Ruth hope you're well hola you know just once circle back around just won't see how everything was going you know I just want to see where were you Apple falling on deaf ears he was he was sharing this over over lunch and I said so I I I've got a tactic that I've learned from a book that I read yeah I thoroughly believe in the person who did it because he was hostage negotiator for the FBI and had him on the show I was like writer an email and just simply say hey Ruth is it your intention to not move forward with this project that's it that's one that's that's all you put and he looked at me like I was crazy he's like there's no way I'm doing that like she's gonna is she's gonna blow up she's gonna think I'm nuts and I'm like give me your phone and I'll do it and he's so he's like dude if this blows up on my face like you yeah I'm gonna Kate I was like I think it'll work so we had a bet that I was like if she doesn't get back to you by the end of lunch I'll buy your lunch and whatever get whatever premium liquor you want I'll get you your favorite bottle of it you know to drown your sorrows that you didn't get the deal so he's like okay he's like alright so we sent her this eight and a half minutes later she replies no no no it's fine we know we're actually in the midst right now we're getting it approved just yet we're gonna bring you in next Wednesday you know everything's all good you know we're gonna move forward next Wednesday and he was like woah dude that was crazy like he's like I literally thought she was gonna fly off the handle is one sentence long so I want to share that with you that was that was gold that's really cool and and and the cool thing about it is like people are so horrified yeah and you gotta eat and you get lunch and premium liquor yeah I'm like oh yeah I'd you know you you if you start betting premium liquor with me like I'm visioning drinking that stuff so I'm gonna take that back and you you got a sucker move and she got back in eight and a half minutes hey I have met at school yeah and it was good but can you just share what what the psychology is behind the one sentence email yeah well it's you triggering and no response however you craft it people feel safe and protected when they say no you need that baby to go out all by itself that was the other thing that you gotta do you can't and you know I coached a guy one time I know we're into questions and he'd put them all in an email and every no oriented question he asked he immediately followed up with because I haven't you know I'm like aha you just destroyed everything so it's gotta go out by itself I mean this is surgical strike and you gotta let that baby hit so first of all the know makes you feel safe and protected number two by saying no they're avoiding a loss and loss of voidance is the primary driver in human decision-making now she looks at this you know we decided not to move forward then suddenly the future is without this which is the loss and it's a way to say no to trigger loss avoidance another psychological neuroscience element she's rescuing this the sender you know she gets this saying no not only made it feel safer protected it made us feel empowered because somebody on the other side needed rescuing rescuing correcting I mean it works on all these levels and somebody gets a dose of all these hit after hit after hit as soon as they contemplate the no reaction eight and a half minutes I apologize you guys had to wait that long she probably isn't bathroom when you originally sent the text of the email because she probably actually responded in a minute as soon as she saw it so she enters away from her phone I'm sorry it took that long she was yeah it was lunchtime so right right and some got away right now I I I love that man I love this skill sets I think I shared with you I've read your book I not only have the hard hard copy but I also have the audio and then I joined masterclass just just for you because I just thoroughly and I've been a member of masterclass now for I think 120 days and I have watched your course four times and I haven't watched anybody else's I know there's a plethora of things out there but I had that's like the only reason I joined but I want to make sure that the the men can find all your resources what you're working on and what you're excited about so share with us how we can find you well yeah and I'm glad you talked about that masterclass because you know and it is the real masterclass there's a whole bunch of people as they do this masterclass do that masterclass you know the masterclass is a standalone operation you know they got a lot of ads in social media you know it's Martin Scorsese Samuel Jackson Serena Williams Gordon Ramsay you know the master class that those guys are on it's an insanely well produced negotiation instruction I'm so proud of collaborating with these people in so many ways and it's a ridiculously cheap value it has to be the most inexpensive best value for a dollar out there because you you get my courses is the most viewed course on their site in last month I can say that come competing with everybody else number one number two all the good dads out there turn your wife on to this - as it turns out it skews heavily also towards women women want to learn how to be better negotiators you want your you want your wife learning this stuff you want her understanding where you're coming from every much is she wants you to understand where you're coming where she's coming from this is a two-way street and telling the women love it because it's the truth that it's it's especially now it's the best value out there there's nothing that could compare us in terms of its value and then there's this great entertaining stuff you get you know you get to see Ron Howard you get to see Marco successor you get to see Samuel Jackson I mean pick somebody famous that you're into they're gonna have they're probably got a master class it's worth it and and I'm just I'm I I'm so enthusiastic about it like I never thought I was going to be in the same places as the people that I just mentioned which might be a sign of the Apocalypse kid from Iowa like me but get the master class it'll be the best money of your respect the cheapest money ever spent on making it a lot better then follow up subscribe to our newsletter actionable concise free comes out on Tuesday mornings um actionable and concise are the key issues cuz not everybody has time to go through newsletter that has 50 articles and it's got one article it'll Druitt you can drop stuff and you can start right now easiest way to sign up for the newsletter text the message black swan' method lowercase spaces between them Black Swan method send that as a text 233 seven seven seven three three triple 7 33 777 just like the airplane you send that message as I outlined it to that number you get a dialog box back asking for your email sign up you get the book the master class separately and and the even and the email you've got the tools that you need to navigate staying at home all day long with your kids without want to jump off the roof you hit the nail on the head there my friend for sure Chris this has been this has been a pleasure round 2 actually it's kind of round 3 because not only did you come on the podcast first time you also dropped by our mastermind community and you did a QA a while back that we recorded and and now this is round 3 so thank you so much for your time and you know thank you for the skills and the one thing that I want to share with this is I again acknowledge and appreciate you for these skills because the thing that I I was in sales for 20 years before this now we felt there was that part of the sales training that made me feel disingenuous non-authentic the thing that I've really I really love about your book is it feels very authentic because it gives you the human psychology behind communication like I almost think your book should be titled masters of communication you know some something to do a psychology just because like yes it's negotiation but profound communication and and really being it not only makes me it has made me a better communicator but it's made me a way better listener and more empathetic towards people to me most to me so thank you that's cool man thank you very much it's much appreciate thank you Ben thanks for having me you bet

Channel: The Good Dad Project

Views: 40,942

Rating: 4.9208293 out of 5

Keywords: Chris Voss, Never Split the Difference, negotiating, communication, dads, fathers

Id: LA8pn_UvrOg

Length: 54min 44sec (3284 seconds)

Published: Sun Jun 07 2020