Colonel Russell Williams Interrogation Body Language: Why Did He Confess?

your vehicle drove up the side of jessica lloyd's house your boots walked to the back of jessica lloyd's house this is getting beyond my control today we're going to do something a little bit different than what we usually do there wasn't a whole lot going on in pop culture this week so we decided we'd talk about one of our favorite things in the whole wide world interrogation deciding which interrogation video to break down wasn't hard at all because you let us know what you wanted to see in the comments and when the panelists speak we listen so we're going to talk about the interrogation of colonel russell williams a long time panelist favorite you might think that's going to be pretty exciting but it's not going to be exciting it's going to be horrifically boring it's what we like there's nothing to do in pop culture so we're going to nerd out on it there's a lot of silence in the videos we're going to be watching that's because nobody's talking and that uncomfortable silence is what we feed on so again we're going to talk about body language but more than that we're going to talk about interrogation all right you ready here we go i'm scott rousseau body language expert analyst and i trained law enforcement in the military in interrogation and body language and i created the number one online body language course body language tactics.com with greg hartley mark i'm mark bowden i'm an expert in human behavior and body language i help people all over the world to stand out win trust and gain credibility every time they communicate including some of the leaders of the g7 chase i'm chase hughes i'm an expert in human behavior and body language i teach intelligence agencies and the general public in extreme forms of persuasion interrogation and people reading greg eric hartley i'm a former army interrogator interrogation instructor resistance to interrogation instructor i've written 10 books on body language and behavior and put together this course the number one body language course online body language tactics.com with scott rouse i spend most of my time on wall street and in corporate america all right today we're going to talk about a guy named colonel russell williams and we got the panelists we get you know tons of those every week every asking for this so there wasn't a whole lot going on in pop culture so what we decided we would do was focus on this one on uh russell williams because what it is is it's an interrogation and most of the time we focus just on body language or mostly on body language but this time we're going to focus on interrogation because we get a lot of requests for that as well so today it's going to be a little bit boring we're going to geek out and nerd out on interrogation and you'll learn a lot from it but we will be talking about body language but not as much as we usually do it's going to be mostly focused on interrogation greg you got anything you want to say yeah so guys i'm a pig in mud here i've spent most of my life doing this mark you not being an interrogator need to be the guy who keeps us sane and makes us not go too deep because three of us have spent our entire lives here and i spent more than most people's lifetime doing this crap so we're gonna love it we're gonna dig into it we'll nerd out a little mark keep us at the body language and the same part and don't let us go too deep i'll do that all right all right you guys ready yeah here we go you just have to see harrison the guy was speaking with me whatever night that was was for us as well oh yeah took every number i had yeah now they were doing some pretty thorough interviews that night yeah absolutely that was great to see it i'm just gonna move your gloves here that's a little microphone just to make sure there's nice and clear um as you can see here everything in this room is videotaped and audio taped uh you've been interviewed by the police in a in a room like this before or i've never been in here like this oh no okay no let's get this set up here i guess the closest to interview by nis for top secret clearance oh yeah all right well again russell i appreciate you coming in uh an investigation like this i mean i'm sure you can appreciate it's been big news uh especially down in belleville way um and you know obviously our approach to cases like this is that uh we don't give up on somebody being alive until we get evidence that they're not so because of that we're treating uh jessica's case as an emergent situation obviously so we're fast forwarding things that we might normally take our time with and that's why we're here on a sunday afternoon so uh again i appreciate it um we're going to do a pretty thorough interview today okay um and the reason for that is because uh the last thing we want is to be calling people back again and again and again okay um so what we're gonna do is we're gonna go over a number of things and uh i'm gonna explain what all those are to you okay um i'm a big coffee guy i don't know if you're a coffee guy or something i didn't want to drink in front of you so no i appreciate that all right go ahead i could uh definitely are they black yeah they're just black with uh with sugar all right and again um like i said this interview is going to be very thorough um but again uh i have a simple rule when i talk to people it's uh i'm sure you're the same way i treat everybody with respect i don't wanna ask you to do the same for me um so what we're gonna do is we're gonna start off by uh going through um what your rights are okay just like everybody else all right greg you want to go first sure now here guys you're going to hear the interrogation instructor in me i'm going to tell you things you may or may not want to hear and mark keep me honest here but interrogation is a process everybody thinks it's voodoo and the guy just says what he wants to say and that process regardless of what you call it will fall into a handful of categories it starts off with establishing control and by establishing control i mean put a fence around what we're going to do and how we're going to behave we always also establish identity we make sure we're talking to the right person this is the interrogation cycle then we establish rapport that's small talk and it means nothing it's simply me trying to get you into a place where you feel comfortable then i run an approach and i'll go through approaches as we run through here today but approaches are psychological ploys things like fear up fear down about pride knee go up pride down futility and i can list them all off they're 14. i'll go through them as we go through here because he's going to use about seven of them if i remember right and then once i get the approach going i start my questioning technique but i never forget the approach that's working and i keep reinforcing it it's an approach questioning extract information redrive the approach and then once i get what i need i terminate and termination quite simply means finish the conversation this has use in daily life i use it in corporate america to teach people to run businesses quite simply use the same basic process and i'll run back through that as we go through here but i want you to get your head around establish control establish id establish rapport run an approach questioning and then we'll see termination at the end he starts off in his establishing control by not using this guy's title the minute you start using a title you put a guy on notice and he straightens his uniform and goes back to who he is but when you call him russell you've taken him out of that uniform and he's a human being and you're starting down the way he's starting by developing that rapport and i always said rapport doesn't need to be positive it can be negative hey scumbag sit in that chair and answer my question enough for you that's a a way of approach approaching rapport as well but he immediately begins collecting information and you'll see that this colonel's face is straight on and he does something really dumb really dumb and that's chew gum because your jaw works at the rate your brain works and you can watch it as he goes through it's going to ramp up and then stop and it'll be a really good indicator i'm going to tell you that based on my experience i would just about guarantee you that colonel russell williams is resistance trained there are a couple of things that jump off the plate at me and i'm not going to point those out simply because when this guy starts off he's not your friend he's setting up the parameters he's establishing control and he even smooths when he reads your rights hey we do this for everybody the only real immediately immediate jump off the plate from the colonel is he does a resume statement as you would call it scott or chase and he tries to save some face by saying when i did my top secret clearance interviews the only time i've been this way well there you go that right there saying look i'm trustworthy look i'm a man of god look out for me that's the beginning of this and i'll leave it at that because there's a ton of other stuff here i don't want to jump into but this is a great start remember the process because the process is going to make a difference here and then i'll loop back at the end of this and give you how you can use this in your daily life in meetings as soon as we finish this section if you don't want to watch that skip over it scott what do you got all right this is this is all of us that's one of our favorite interrogations of all times because it's executed brilliantly everything from from top to bottom is is just it's just perfect uh so let's start off with when he's building rapport he does he throws so much stuff in there the part about the coffee right there he's putting in the law of reciprocity because what he's getting ready to say is as we go when i i have a thing i'm sure you're just like me you treat everyone with i treat everyone with respect and i'm going to treat you with respect and then he gives them the coffee as they're doing that oh because later on that's going to come into play he's setting up all these things psychologically that are going to come back into play later on um now the table where he's sitting a lot of times on like on tv you'll see someone sit directly across the table from like here i've got a little table here and you'd be sitting there and i'd be sitting here that's that's one way of doing it but the thing is what you want to do this guy's done perfectly he set this guy sort of in the corner and he's at the at the corner of the table talking to him so there's no table in the way but he still has a table there to show that he's the guy in charge because the other guy doesn't the uh the suspect doesn't have the table but the guy the interrogator does so he at least get he has his arm out has all this stuff on he spread this stuff out so it looks like there's a lot going on on there so he's he's set that into playing like greg was saying earlier and he's going to go through these things uh one at a time he's in other words he's told him where to sit because when you walk in the interrogator's chair is way over there and he walks him right there to that chair so he just knows naturally where to sit down so that's really great now as we go through this pay attention to the tone of voice of both of these guys number one listen to the interrogator what was his name what would you say his name was jim jim smith jim smith yeah jim smith yeah let me tell you something so anyway so listen to his tone of voice it doesn't change just toward the end it changes a little bit and i'll explain why in a little while but he comes in with the same tone of voice he looks like michael from the office you know on on the tv show he's not but he comes on here he looks like an accountant and his voice is just like you get the feeling you don't get to feel this guy's a detective you don't get the feeling you're going to go to prison talking to this guy you get to feeling going to talk about what you did this year in taxes so as he goes along listen to his tone of voice it's so important because he's he's completely setting this guy up which we'll see at the end when all these things were seen here now will come back around and he'll use them at the end i'll stop there chase what do you got yeah uh i agree with you guys so far and one of the things that we look for is interrogators is this rapid head movement in response to your voice so he's looking the other way the interrogator starts talking and there's a jerk to look this rapid response uh jerky responses and equipment movements is a way above baseline and he's a colonel but he's not a colonel in this room and the interrogators made that very clear uh so he's building authority and credibility with his uh his clearance and i call this gesture conformity when he's nodding quickly there's the time between an ask and a non-verbal response is very quick like less than a quarter of a second uh so one of the first things i teach people to start looking for in the interrogation room when you're going to have compliance or not is gesture conformity will are there these little quick movements and guilty people do this a lot more often than innocent people a lot but as far as the interrogator goes he is doing exactly what he's supposed to do he's building rapport talking about respect and gaining respect and lowering barriers and he's starting to do another thing which is understanding you have to understand that person their life circumstances we're going to talk about that ad nauseam probably in a few minutes i have no idea but i'm sure we're gonna get there and it will get to a point where we understand that person and during the small talk that that greg was talking about a second ago this is where we see the baseline are his hands crossing his body no are his hands covering his genitals no he's very open he gestures with his hand while he's talking that's great and when we get down to that understanding that person that's when we as interrogators have to say things like this isn't a big deal anybody could have done this in under the same circumstances and those kinds of things i'll leave it at that uh mark what do you got uh yeah so first of all to greg's point who have we got in the room yes we've got uh ds um what did i say jim smith fantastic job there uh yes colonel russell williams so we might call him colonel russell williams throughout this and uh he's not a colonel anymore he is inside uh he his medals were struck uh he is now not associated with the military service at all in fact all his uniforms were incinerated in the trenton incinerator so he has absolutely zero association anymore to the canadian armed services but at times we may refer to him as colonel because it's important that we do so you can see exactly what's happening here in terms of the luring of power and how he's he's resisting by taking the power back so uh d.s smith says um calls him um russ and takes away that rank gives him a short name he instantly talks about another rus in the police force that he was talking through so he makes a link instantly a social link with another rus in the police force instantly counter-measuring the loss of status there and what you're going to get throughout this is this idea of losing control and gaining control and in fact what what the colonel needs to do here is to make himself a very unattractive subject the idea is is that if you make yourself unattractive that the interrogator would go off and find somebody else it's like this is too hard if we got somebody else because this is just annoying to do this can we swap this out for a different one so he's taking this tack of being unattractive what uh what the ds needs to do here is to create a sense of futility like it is now futile to try and get out of that and he does that by the end and we'll see this right at the end of that how it becomes utterly futile trying to get out of this but as it transpires at this moment rank is taken away he then tries to create a social link through this idea of russ very skillful ever been interviewed in a room like this that's designed to lose control to take control away from me he says no no i haven't and smiles up at the at the camera um no i haven't uh and then he brings in nis and top security clearance and and and brings back that winning back of status so this for me is just this interplay of power going on here to work out who's going to be in control of this moment to scott's point of the coffee there and using the coffee to win rapport look what he does with that coffee okay he asks he asks is it is it uh is it black yeah it's black with sugar he then doesn't drink it okay he's he's taken the gift but he's he's having power by denying himself the gift of the coffee he'll have the coffee when he wants to have the coffee somebody not resisting that interrogation would probably get straight into the coffee yeah the guns may be a bad idea but at least he's in control of that of that gum at least that's something he can self-soothe with and actually create an experience through his own control of that and control the coughing so he's been pretty smart here the unfortunate thing for him is he doesn't know what they have or what they're about to get and also i would suggest he's arrogant and that arrogance that feeling that he's better than d.s smith here is going to cause him a lot of problems down the line so there that's what i got for you yeah so guys two things first it's compliance the way he uses the coffee it's a compliance training meth method he didn't offer him hey would you like some coffee with cream or sugar would you like some black coffee with sugar that's a compliance thing that's number one yeah you can have anything you want as long as it's black you know that's that's henry ford 101. you can have any color you want as long as it's black it's a compliance training thing the second one mark you just hit one of my favorite and hardest to get people that capable of doing is the futility approach the futility approach is one of the most powerful in all of interrogation but people get to this point they're like the borg from some star trek show saying resistance is futile and you want to just slap them on the head it is a very subtle very nuanced approach and wait and you'll see this guy in full hey do you guys mind if i do the the meeting thing very quickly just see how this works no dude there you go okay cool i'll run through it very quickly then so i said you can use this in your daily life and we said we start off with establish id then we go to establi or establish control then we go to establish id establish a poor question and we if we walk that over to now your normal daily life we would say in a meeting you can establish identification because what we mean by that is who's in the meeting we want to make sure everyone who's there belongs there and there's someone who is invited if you have an opposing counsel and you don't know their lawyer then you need to clear that up then we do something called an upfront contract in that meeting we say there's always somebody in control of a meeting it's just a matter of whether you choose to take it if you're in control you say hey chase do i have an hour of your time if the guy says yes he's not going to get up when things get hot and when he gets upset he's going to sit there through that hour and you're going to get to go through the things you want to do then you run through a list of agenda items you take that list of agenda items and say chase do you agree that one two three four five and six are important and if chase says yes then you say okay then we're good and i might even say chase are they in the right order are they in the right sequence is this the right list and in the right sequence and once he says yes now we have a contract he's given me time he's agreed to what i want to talk about guess what i'm now in control of the entire environment i can walk him through every one of those agenda items operating according to the plan we've agreed on and if things get too confusing and too deep i can say hey how about we park that until later or is that more important than everything else on list it's a powerful way of taking what we do in interrogation and using it in your daily life so establishing identification getting an upfront contract with a timeline with agenda items you agree to in list and sequence staying on the agenda and parking anything that doesn't work it's something i use in everyday life in corporate america and you can use it too you just have to see harrison the guy was speaking with whatever night that was was for us as well oh yeah took every number i had yeah now they were doing some pretty thorough interviews that night yeah absolutely glad to see it i'm just gonna move your gloves here that's a little microphone just to make sure there's nice and clear um as you can see here everything in this room is uh videotaped and audio taped uh you've been interviewed by the police in a in a room like this before i've never been interviewed like this oh no okay no let's get this set up there i guess the closest to interview by nis for top secret clearance oh yeah all right well again russell i appreciate you coming in uh an investigation like this i mean i'm sure you can appreciate it's been big news uh especially down in uh belleville way um and you know obviously our approach to cases like this is that we don't give up on somebody being alive until we get evidence that they're not so because of that we're treating jessica's case as an emergent situation obviously so we're fast forwarding things that we might normally take our time with and that's why we're here on a sunday afternoon so again i appreciate it we're going to do a pretty thorough interview today okay and the reason for that is because the last thing we want is to be calling people back again and again and again okay um so what we're gonna do is we're gonna go over a number of things and uh i'm gonna explain what all those are to you okay um i'm a big coffee guy i don't know if you're a coffee guy or something i didn't want to drink in front of you so no i appreciate that all right go ahead i could uh definitely are they black yeah they're just black with uh with sugar a little bit started your what sorry all right and again um like i said this interview is going to be very thorough um but again uh i have a simple rule when i talk to people it's i'm sure you're the same way i treat everybody with respect i don't want to ask you to do the same for me um so what we're going to do is we're going to start off by uh going through what your rights are okay just like everybody else excellent healthy are we good and essentially uh russell uh in a nutshell that's what we wanted to uh to talk to you about okay um those four cases are of concern to us and um you know you've kind of uh almost hit the nail on the head about some of our issues that kind of make us want to talk to to russell williams okay um because essentially uh there was a a connection between you and and all four of those cases would you agree yeah and that's that's why uh i'll be quite frank with you that's why uh things kind of um uh evolved when uh the officers talked to you on thursday night okay uh we kind of went from there because uh when i think you discussed with the fact that you were a uh uh a colonel yeah at the base i was in uniform at the time so yeah so pretty obvious right um so essentially uh then the connection with miss cuomo um was made okay chase what do you got we've got the interrogator going back to calling him russell which i just think was a just a slip every one of us has made mistakes way worse than that because it's it's very uh on the fly this job uh he's non-confrontational and explanatory but we see russ going into fig leaf mode already the hands are kind of coming in front of the genitals the interrogator copies some of this behavior i think unconsciously because it was probably involved in training he's done it so often in interrogation said it's a it's an unconscious thing you never want any of these skills if you're learning behavior profiling you're learning how to read people you don't want them to live behind your eyes you want the skills out here to where it's it's a natural thing the interrogator here is using lots of softening language in the statements he's saying i think possibly sort of essentially he says kind of three times and then finishes with an upward tone so this is interesting that he establishes authority and then gains a little reward just pretending this is what i would call a columbo method where he's just figuring out let me i'm not really sure about a lot of this stuff can you confirm some of this for me and i think that's uh really what's going on here but i i know exactly what uh what uh greg's gonna say here so greg i'll pass it to you first yes i'm gonna leave a lot here but i'm gonna hit a few things first thing he does is call out third party third party is right way to go when you're trying to build rapport and trust what he's really trying to do is to establish a new normal what i always say is what we do best is we create a reason why you're allowed to do the wrong thing if it's all confrontational this is why i always say if you think confrontation is the way to interrogate you're missing the boat it's about trust once you get the person to a point that they trust you and they're bonded to you it's hard as hell for them not to tell you the truth and what this guy's doing very well is that he's calling out a third party that's going to become the bad guy the booger man the boogeyman the guy out in the woods so he first starts by saying they you hear me use the word they and he uses a lot of soft language chase i love what he does with his soft pedaling i'm also going to tell you that interrogators are kind of like swans when they're good they look elegant and floating nicely along the top of the water but if you look under the water their little feet are paddling like hell to keep them moving along and i want you to start watching for mistakes he makes i see them every time he does great recovery but you'll see his respiration increase and you'll see the interrogator starting to go a little bit himself he controls it very well but pay attention his mirroring i'm with you chase the mirroring is beautiful he crosses his body it becomes second nature you interrogate 100 people you'll get to where you know that when they do something you do something you'll change your cadence his cadence has slowed already he's trying to get this guy off of his high horse off of being a colonel and down to being a guy who's in trouble and he's talking slow or moving and more into that plane and we call in the old days i would call it kinesthetic plane you get a guy down to where he stop his eyes drop down left down right down left down right just before you get to pre-confession and you start that by talking lower and slower watch the colonel respond respiration is up he's crossed his torso put his hands in his crotch just what you're saying chase i call it the jaw rate or the or the chew rate his chew rate is increasing like all hell now and even more importantly he's rolled his gum to between his front teeth and he's focusing on it that's why i said it was a bad idea for him when you're trying to resist interrogation there's a lot of tricks you use and we teach a lot of them what we never teach is how to interrogate we teach how to resist interrogation and when you know both it's very interesting i actually once had a very interesting line in spin magazine when they asked me if if being interrogated in sear meant you knew how to interrogate i'll leave that line there because it was provocative and you can go find it in spin magazine i'll tell you guys what it is later um he moves that gum to front he starts to chew like hell and then he starts to nod and when he's really affirming something which is interesting his nod rate's pretty quick because he's nervous and you see it chase i agree you see his head whip around to the interrogator already it'll get more pronounced as we go but this interrogator is setting him up for game of trust he's moving him off of what he expects where it's going to be the harsh interrogation he faced at resistance school to more of a soft sell and it's working mark what do you got yeah so um to your point chase yeah i think confusion is being built up purposely here or very well accidentally because uh we get ds smith uh first of all talking about russ that to russ then talking about russell williams in the third person so disassociating there i think that's a possibility of of setting up a russell williams that we can then ascribe crimes to uh we can put it put it down to russell williams as opposed to russ who i have in the room with me so i think there may be a set up there of a possible out on that maybe maybe um uh but then he goes back to connecting you with the crimes so we've now got russ who we like we like russ then we've got russell williams who we're not sure about him and then we've got the connection to you with the crimes that's quite confusing and i think that might be on on purpose because again we're trying to we're trying to up this loss of control of who are we actually talking about right now there's a lot of confusion there well the head the head does turn in there to give an ear and there is this look of of of maybe confusion but i think it turns to criticism and again i think that is is williams trying to be an unattractive subject who wants to interrogate somebody who is just quite critical of of what you're coming up with like what are you what are you talking about here again i would suggest that's purposeful on his part of just trying to be critical unattractive to be around however um what we what we what we do see as well which i think is important to know and you can use in in in your own environment when you're talking with people and you want to build rapport is let's just go back to basic um geometry what you see is these two sitting in what we call in geometric terms to complement to each other if you've got one thing here and one thing there that's called the compliment and so if you're interviewing somebody at the compliment it's more likely they'll fall into complementary behavior than if you place yourself in antagonism in geometry that's called antagonistic uh it was churchill who said i think we you know we make our places and then our places make us and that's what happens when you sit up set up a room for interview interrogation therapy whatever you're doing you're trying to set up the right geometry first of all that means it's most likely you're going to get the performance that you need not only out of yourself but out of your client or your subject they have gone for or it's been set up here in in complement rather than antagonism that would just cause more argument here's what i do in a meeting where i want to build rapport really quickly i go hey you know what i haven't had a chance to get a cup of coffee this morning would you would you get up with me and let's just take a walk to go and grab a coffee and then we move together in parallel and it's in parallel as we walk along together not looking at each other but looking at what's going around that's the point where i'll try and get information rapport out of people because there's so little conflict think about how bars are set up so so mainly guys can talk to each other in the main uh and not fight you sit them side by side and you get them looking at something else so they don't get into conflict they don't look at each other you know with alcohol and get into conflict with each other so think about how often can you get yourself into parallel with somebody rather than ever antagonism or if you can't do that get into the compliment scott what do you got all right well let's talk about what uh greg brought up as well as the chew rate and i forgot to hit that on the first one because you know i love gum so on the first one his two rate was 60 times the minute that was the average averaging it out like like you do a blink rate chase so i have averaged 60 times that's that's that's pretty good clip there he's coming in he's a little bit nervous he hadn't done this before so but he knows he's done it so he doesn't know he doesn't know if he's getting in trouble or not but he knows he's guilty so he's two rates at 60 there now when we get to this this question where he says uh the thing where he says you hit the nail on the head um then it goes up to then we're down to 42 a minute four two twos a minute that's when he talks about that then when he says um let's talk about the issues that make us want to talk to russell williams that's when it goes to he has 14 and 11 seconds that's a lot 14 shoes 11 seconds i'm a professional gum tuber that's a lot i can tell you that right now it's coming out of the gate that's a whole lot you guys covered all the uh his hands and all that one thing that i that i noticed and i heard this from this uh who does all who talked about almost the very same way i did this british guy wrote a bunch of books what's that what's uh belong here dude what's his name blond haired guy tedx talk has like a gazillion views british guy i can't remember his name bowden is it bowden mark bowden that's who it is the same thing if you watch this guy what he does is he turns his ear toward him when they get when the when the uh suspect when russell's talking he's got his ear toward him now there's a thing that i like to do for years and years and this is how i picked this up or when i saw mark doing this on a tv show somewhere i was like oh gosh he knows if you're talking to someone you want them to listen and you've got a lot to say you don't want to say anything this is what i found that helps as you're talking to that person when you're listening to them your ears are your ears kind of like to you're pointing toward them you're listening to them okay great and usually your illustrators these are the things that that we know are when you your brain is emphasizing specific words and phrases like i did just then those are illustrators instead of your illustrator is going out when you're talking to this person what you want to do is give their brain the impression that they're the ones talking and you're the ones listening so you get your head going like this a little bit and you shake your head up and down a little bit as you're saying something and then you sort of instead of making your illustrators go outward you bring them in this way a little bit almost like you're dragging information out of them as you're talking you don't make a whole big thing about it but you do very subtly as you're talking to them you do a couple of pauses like that and the next thing you know when you're shaking your head and you're doing this they'll be shaking their head and listening and theoretically their brain is under the impression they're the ones talking and you're the one listening so they're not thinking about something else to talk about next what's going to come up next however in this case russell williams's brain is just flying around in there everywhere you can tell by how still he is and how tight he gets and how loose he gets his breathing right here is 18 times a minute it's not not a whole lot at this point that's not a whole lot 18 times a minute and a whole lot so he but but he's he's practiced that he knows to do to to to keep his breathing under control so his as his brain's flying around he's trying to think what's going to come next how much trouble am i in and he's almost this is when we see things start to come together this is when we're from this moment always so we see his approach is going to go from when greg was talking about him bobbing his head up and down when he hits that point where he says um let's talk about the connection with you and miss cuomo or how that was made that's the deepest head nod it's almost a pre-confession knot where he goes down and he guards that neck with his with his chin because other times he's doing this it's pretty big but when that phrase hits and that thing goes all the way down it stays for a second then comes back up that's a warning what are you going to say greg you're moving yeah no no i just moved to correct okay i thought you had something to add too sorry man but if you have something to add i did something to have when you're done i'll go go ahead go ahead what do you got yeah yeah so so the last one for me i said you shouldn't call him by his title he's doing it here intentionally he's setting it up for pride and he go up pride and go down later and what you do is you call him out you say hey you are a colonel so later when you say hey what kind of scumbag colonel does this then you can get him because remember when you get a person off balance you get them out of the thinking brain what you'll see is when we we always know when we're about to get a confession because you get them in their brain case once they're in their brain case and there's no outside world existing you're the only voice they hear and they entirely forget there's a camera and a microphone because that all the only space they're existing in is in that kinesthetic plane and they're down in just turmoil or like a squirrel in a road trying to figure out where to go next and we just reach over and go it's okay bob we're going to help you now again professional liars that we are we're going to help you right into jail but that's what we do so here we go and essentially russell in a nutshell that's what we wanted to uh to talk to you about okay um those four cases are of concern to us and um you know you've kind of uh almost hit the nail on the head about some of our issues that kind of uh make us want to talk to to russell williams okay um because essentially uh there was a a connection um between you and uh and all four of those cases would you agree geography yes i would have to say there's a connection here yeah and that's what that's why um i'll be quite frank with you that's why uh things kind of um uh evolved when uh the officers talked to you on thursday night okay uh we kind of went from there because uh when i think you discussed within the fact that you were a uh uh a colonel yeah at the base i was in uniform at the time so yeah so pretty obvious right um so essentially uh then the connection with miss cuomo was made okay i'm good you guys good yeah let's move i'm not going to walk you through november but i'm going to take you to a date that's probably pretty fresh in your mind uh uh the day that uh that marie franz um do you remember how you found out i do you know i was sent an email well as soon as the the off staff and the base learned they told me okay so i got an email i can't remember if it was late at night or in the morning but certainly i saw it uh i want to say first thing in the morning because i had just come back from ottawa i was in ottawa for um a set of meetings on one of the days i can't remember what day of the week we're talking about it but uh yeah no i mean obviously when your people get skilled it gets your attention so absolutely i very much remember that and how did you know marie franz coleman i'd only met her once um she was on a crew i was on uh just after i got to the base okay so uh i can't remember i think it was a one day trip i did a number of trips uh in canada transporting um our you know troops sort of first lake out of edmonton uh you know we tend to hop scotch them across uh until they get into theater so and anyway i can't remember which trip it was but uh we did a number of them up to edmonton just to pick up the troops bring them to trenton and then uh put a fresh crew on and uh because we'd fly open back in the same day so i'm pushing the edge of that and fresh crew on they'd continue on after a couple hours okay all right mark what do you got yeah um so one one thing that really interests me is that heavy sigh in there what i would be interested in around that is is is that something he is performing in order to try and get an idea of emotional connection to the victim or is it a heavy sigh around something else a release of the tension that's going on there or is he using that moment to release tension at a place where it would feel normal to do that because we're talking about the news of the death of a of a colleague although you know his whole assertion is he didn't really know this person anyway so i'm going to go for he's using it it's he's using it to release tension we're starting to see the build-up in in him of the tension here due to the duress of this and he does need to release something at that point remember what's happening is you've got a build up of as you get fight and flight you've got to build up of lactic acid and you need to burn that off and so you got to emit carbon dioxide so you've got to sigh out you've got to get that stuff out just part of respiration um look here's what happens there's lots of detail around this this stuff he certainly goes into detail around ottawa well that's a a play for status ottawa is canada's um uh ruling capital it's the political capital it's where uh the government of canada have all their high offices including uh the the uh armed forces so he's he's making a play for hey i was in ottawa very important very important trip to ottawa but then he goes into a whole kind of seductive story about exactly how you move uh troops i guess when they come into the the uh east coast uh back from afghanistan into europe onto the east coast you know now i'm getting them back to alberta across uh canada it's like we don't really need that kind of detail well what you're trying to do again is up your status around this ds smith brilliant just goes okay so i don't wanna i don't care about that okay not not of interest to me so again immediately crushes that that status there so um williams trying to make himself unattractive by being too important smith there strikes him down on that but what is interesting for me is we see i think it's hard to see because because we're only really seeing the arm but i think we're probably starting to see a few more illustrators on that story so he's being a bit more um verbose with his body language on that which means we're probably getting a baseline of here's what he's like when he's telling us the truth when he's telling us the truth of here's how you move troops across canada we're gonna get a lot more movement from him when he's not when he's trying to hold stuff back he's gonna lock himself right down so that's what i got on that one uh chase what do you got for us yeah absolutely agree there's a fantastic point about uh bringing up on terry over there and i think his eyebrows start to stick upward in this request for approval uh about just a few seconds into this and his gum chewing here we can see it start to increase his chew rate goes up a little bit and one of when he says one of your people gets killed it gets your attention or i'm paraphrasing you can see him tighten his his cross body grip that he's reaching across his body with with a single arm and i i think this confirmation glance continues throughout to the end of the video he maintains his eye contact to ensure that he's still on solid ground with the interrogator so we see him continuing to look back during anything that might be questionable to to check for the response of the interrogator and this uh this grip that he's he's grabbing his other arm continues while he's speaking and he's reluctant to use his hand and this is this is the source of internal security for right now this this grip across his body and he's using flying the troops obviously with the eyebrow flash to say yeah how impressive is that he's building a little more credibility uh with the interrogator and i'll leave it at that i'll keep it short uh scott all right when he says uh let's talk about his two rate again so when he's he says how did you know marie cuomo he's he says i only met her once and he says it really loud it's like his brain is saying no man we only matter the one time we gotta we gotta get that out at that point his chew rate blows up to 96 times a minute that's a lot that's a whole lot um then like chase was talking about his arm moves up and starts starts uh that's his that's where his adapters start kicking in he's been using his gum as an adapter up to that point trying to blow off some of that built up stress retention and trying and trying to to be cool and relax himself that's when we start seeing that the interrogate same time he's using the he's got the same posture he's got the same tone everything's just the same whereas we're slowly starting to see uh russell williams getting it he's starting to get wound up man because his brain at this point is just flying in there because he's starting to get worried um he takes a deep breath i think to sort of control his breathing try to you know as he gets relaxed so because his breathing rate's pretty heavy it gets it it jacks up in there i don't have it written down on here i thought i had it um but his um illustrators they stay pretty small at this point because when he came in before he was doing a little bit we'll see him get big in a couple minutes a little bit bigger but usually when someone is worried and they're being a little bit deceptive you'll see those illustrated that's one of the things you look that i personally look for if i'm trying to decide whether this person is being honest or not or they're making something up watch those those illustrators if they get smaller they disappear when they've been doing this the whole time watch out for that it's really really important um yeah so you guys could clean me out on that with a lot of it greg what do you got yeah so i'm going to go in reverse order because i agree mark you're dead on we get a baseline when he starts talking about this whole baseline thing he's did anything you see him illustrating big mistake big big big mistake it's the reason the interrogator allows him to talk because now he can compare it to something the interrogator does an artful question how did you know not hey did you know not hey tell me about boom how did you know that causes a guy to tell you something now here's what i think the big respiration is i think if you look at him when he's talking about let me go back when you look at him when he's doing his baseline his face is kind of slack you know his muscles are relaxed there's not a lot of this wrenched face that you see when he's under duress when he first starts and he asks how did you know his head is up request for approval he's got concrete faced here like that demon from japan you're talking about one time mark i forget the name of the one yeah really rigid face really rigid face his nodding is more intense his barriers are up his internal conversation is going 90 to nothing and he has a respiration exhale the reason he does that in my opinion is because he's hit something he's prepared for and that's chaff and redirect and you watch that adapter in sacred space disappears a little and his hands start to move because now he gets to talk about that he doesn't have to think about it's real fact he's chaffing and redirecting and hoping he'll bite into hey how do you fly that plane i'm surprised he didn't say i flew her majesty because he did and i could imagine him saying something like that because this is his chance to get away then when he asked how did you know when he says the part about how did you know and he says she was on a crew i only met her once she was on a crew tongue jet distasteful subject now it could be accidental because he just you know had an exasperated breathe but i'm thinking no it's more okay that's a real tongue jut in the desmond morris distasteful one and out of my mouth kind of thing then he goes back into that normal bass line this interrogator is just sitting going this is waiting for a bite and he he'll get it in a bit fantastic job if you're listening to us we would love to have you on our show come and see us yeah i know okay can that be great i'm not going to walk you through november but i'm going to take you to a date that's probably pretty fresh in your mind uh uh the day that uh that marie franz uh um do you remember how you found out i do yeah i was sent an email um well as soon as the uh the off staff and the base learned they told me okay so i got an email i can't remember if it was late at night or in the morning but certainly i saw it i want to say first thing in the morning because i had just come back from ottawa i was in ottawa for uh um a set of meetings on one of the days i can't remember what one day of the week we're talking about it but uh yeah no i mean obviously when your people get skilled it gets your attention so absolutely i very much remember that coming in and how did you know marie franz coleman i'd only met her once um she was on a crew i was on uh just after i got to the base okay so uh i can't remember i think it was a one day trip uh i did a number of trips in canada transporting um our um you know troops sort of first lake out of edmonton uh you know we tend to hop scotch them across uh until they get into theater so and i i can't remember which trip it was but uh we did a number of them out to edmonton just to pick up the troops bring them to trenton and then uh put a fresh crew on and uh because we'd fly open back in the same day so pushing the edge of that and uh fresh crew on and continue on after a couple hours okay all right ready yeah so that particular week uh do you have any recollection well for instance when you got the email uh yeah do you remember where you were i was at home and tweet okay yeah um do you remember that was a week that you were reasonably stable in trenton or had you fallen no i had been in ottawa i had been in ottawa earlier in the week for some meetings over in gatineau for one of the um scholarships for the c-17 acquisition i was project director and when i was here in order for that so just some follow-up stuff for that okay so i had been here um at some point in that week again i can't remember how the days all fell together but i seem to remember that i got this word shortly after having come back from ottawa seems to me it was the same week all right greg what do you got yeah so i told you before we look like swans until you see our feet under the water watch him watch the interrogator he does something with his hands and he's keenly observing of his own body language and kind of moves glitchy because he's afraid that it'll be perceived by the other guy that's the curse of being us right we're sitting across the table we're like oh yeah he might understand that and we do something glitchy to move it around so it's an interesting turn he doesn't again this interrogator knows what he's doing he uses leading questions did will have or can those words allow you to cut shorter conversation and redirect it he does a masterful job of asking in that way now watch the feigned misunderstanding of the of williams i'm going to stop calling him a colonel and i'm really proud of him for burning his uniforms that says something about the canadian military dishonor goes in the furnace with everything else so he turns away and he barriers a little more and then his chew rate increases and is barriering and adapting when we say adapting and barriering barriers i need space i'm putting something between me and you um adapters are ways of releasing nervous energy whatever it may be and he's doing both and i call that sacred space and he shrinks a little as he gets into this he's making the target smaller psychological all in it and then he bumps up it's when he says he looks like he's comfortable until he says were you at home all the time and then suddenly he's like oh oh now i got to tell the truth and i'm going to have to say no i was in ottawa and i was here i was in a place i shouldn't have been then his barriers increase but he makes more eye contact and he starts to chaff and redirect and resume statement to use chase's term again with a c-17 project leader so i'd seem important now here's where everything's starting to unravel to me there's a new word we've not heard from him yet i seem to remember now he's getting plausible deniability he's starting down that path of well i seem to remember not i remember so he's hedging he's distancing and he's giving this opportunity to create reasonable doubt as to whether he was there not now the other thing is this interrogator is using very specific language do you remember that's intentional that's very intentional now i will also leave it at that because i don't want to step into something i shouldn't and i'll push that over to scott i know it's killing you i know it's killing you it is killing me it is killing all right all right well uh this cheer rate actually goes to 90 here that's pretty good that's that's uh that's a whole lot so when he says i've been in ottawa he says it twice and then he starts makes that big that big adapting move man he's so uncomfortable so we actually see a micro expression here when he says uh for some meetings i was over in in gatineau i don't know what gatineau is anybody know what gatineau is i'll tell you what is it yeah it's it's it's specifically the part of ottawa where the government offices are for the services so he's being very very specific about i was at government meetings in in gap now okay the pentagon us speak right yeah okay well that's where we see that little that contempt that that thing on the side of his nose goes up right there inside his face so he's either that had a bad hard time there at gatt in gatineau or he wasn't there he's making that up at the same time i think that's what you said greg um so so we see that and then let's start noticing how far apart they are the distance between uh uh smith and williams let's start looking at the distance that because that changes drastically here in a little while as we get to going uh again his brain he's starting to think and he's starting to move around a little bit he's trying to keep that in control but he's having a real problem with it uh greg ate up two or three of mine so i'm going to move on mark what do you got yeah so as a post-modernist i have something very meta coming up so hang hang in there uh so what we get what i want you to pay attention to is you can read all the books you like on body language about this and that and there's the other and this and that just look out for the significant change that you see in him on this significant when i talk about is there a significant change this is the kind of thing that i'm looking at okay it's very significant now what does it mean i don't know but it happens on that area of i had been in ottawa significant change there and just as scott says there that look of disgust on gatineau i don't see why him at that kind of rang you know to turn it when you turn up to gatineau that's a cool thing that's good it means you've made it yeah i'm i know you might be getting all kinds of problems from your peers and and higher ranks there i know there's all that and it's it's hellish to get out there and it's you know it doesn't look great okay especially in the winter but it's a good thing to be there so i think the um the disdain or the disgust there is a roundabout he's smelling his own lie he's making this one up on the fly and it smells really bad to him okay now here's the meta piece here is the piece of here is the where we disappear into a beautiful tautology which is he starts talking about to raise his rank the c-17 okay and if you don't know c-17 it's a big big plane that can shift lots and lots of stuff it'll cost you about 350 million dollars super expensive so if you're put in charge of the acquisition of that and this one particularly is being moved to going over to trenton where it's going to be uh be flying out of that's a big thing now and and look how he gets into that story we've gone from so where were you into a story of i'm buying a 350 million dollar plane and just so you know that 350 million dollar plane has its own counter measure dispensing system and that's what we call chaff and redirect and that's exactly what's happening here there i'll leave it at that chase what do you got about full circle that was beautiful mark great yeah yeah that was good oh we've we've all been no no chase chase faith yeah i think the interrogator is non-confrontational he's able to let him talk without interruption which is uncommon for interrogators and i think uh one of the things i actually teach is this mouth covering thing that he's doing it signals unconsciously to the other person that you're not going to speak that you're making a decision not to speak and makes them more likely to continue talking so william says you know i've been in ottawa there's the immediate arm cross there's grip there's digital flexion his fingers are squeezing into his arm they're not relaxed that's one of the things i always say if you're looking at someone with their arms crossed that's meaningless it's meaningless somebody says they're being defensive closed off with holding concealing none of those things apply to that but one thing to pay attention to is the fingers are they squeezing the arm are they relaxed are they comfortable are the palms touching the body where a person's hugging themselves for reassurance those things matter the arm crossed by itself is not not a big deal so i think this statement puts him in the area of the crime or or lets him know that he's internally being deceptive so this shows he has knowledge of something going on we see this shift if there's one thing if i could if you paid me whatever for a class and body language that lasted 30 seconds i would say the entire purpose of reading human behavior is detecting changes in past observed comfortable behavior class over that's all i got yeah you guys both just hit and we should bring this up at every show the difference in us an absolutist is what you just heard all of us are looking for change and what we see in other people is this means x no that doesn't mean x it means my nose itches yeah joe navarro calls it the differences looking for the differences in comfort and discomfort very simple right right to the point all right so that particular week uh do you have any recollection well for instance when you got the email uh yeah do you remember where you were i was at home and tweet okay yeah um do you remember if that was a week that you were reasonably stable in trenton or had you fallen no i had been in ottawa i had been in ottawa earlier in the week uh for some meetings over in gatineau for one of the um scholarship for the c-17 acquisition i was project director and when i was here in orlando for that so just some follow-up stuff for that okay so i had been here at some point in that week again i can't remember how the days all fell together but i seem to remember that i got this word shortly after having come back from ottawa seems to me it was the same week we good yeah so if we were to uh to you know do a similar uh investigation in your background is there is there anything you can think of that anybody may have misinterpreted or anything uh in your history that somebody might say russell williams uh absolutely did this no okay be very boring what's that it'll be very boring all right because essentially that's what i'm looking at is it uh um you seem like a very intelligent person and i think you can see how um a surprise like that would uh certainly also some alarm bells and investigation right all right i'll go first on this one this is this is another setup for this is a bait question but he's setting him up for the biggie which comes up next because he's he's planting that thing in his mind is there anything i didn't think about if there's if anyone is going to see anything bad about me he's not ready for the next one which we'll get into in a minute so that's that's great he's sort of setting him up for that we see him start to squirm a little bit and start to think about what's happening and we can see that that brain is in there just flipping out man he's in there it's bouncing around in there now um we we know that because we start seeing his face and his forehead start getting flush up to this point it's been it's been fairly normal flesh-wise but now it's starting a little bit red because he's thinking he's heating up he's starting to feel the heat come on and he's wondering what do these cats know what's going you know this isn't good this isn't good now because he's realizing that that he's probably in trouble at this point i think his breathing rate goes up 24 times a minute that's a whole lot in in a minute so um now it's so let's see what else but then again the the uh smith keeps it light by laughing and doing those types of things and when he says um when he asked him that debate question we asked that we see just a little bit of a really quick flash smiles as the second part of it goes really really quickly that tells us as well he's thinking he should be smiling about that but he just busts out and goes away really quick really quickly um what else have i got on here yeah he's just letting him know that there's there's a lot more there's a lot more coming and he's getting ready for it uh chase what do you got yes we see uh he says you know is there anything somebody might have misinterpreted he is he's setting up the frame or the perception from the very beginning and i think this is beautiful i i would add on here if i was teaching a course of course and we could always do everything a little better a little differently but it's good to set up this question with something like i'm glad you're here you know we've got 76 officers canvassing the neighborhoods talking we've already we've already spoken to 97 people just since yesterday morning and then the question comes in to to build credibility into the bait question so i always like i always like to establish a little bit of credibility inside the bait question uh and and if you watch the dr phil episode we were on scott greg and mark uh passed a person down to me and for me to use a bait question followed by what we call a mind virus but we don't have time for that tonight so next uh the the follow up with uh the interrogators appeal to the man's intelligence need is a chef's kiss beautiful moment i love watching that and it it's kind of just one final chance to tell you tell us what do you think somebody might have said this is this is it i mean this is the final chance and that is a powerful tool with guilty people and you'll see guilty and innocent people respond to this in completely different ways that's the power of a bait question it's not a leading question and it's not a question that assumes facts not in evidence or it doesn't assume facts we're not lying to anyone we're asking if there's any reason we'll see a few more bait questions throughout here tonight and i i think the interrogator is doing a wonderful job so far here so uh mark yeah yeah what i love about the s smith is is he plays his weakest cards first and and so we do see that he doesn't really out of this first bait question i mean i think it sets up futility works towards futility of the situation but it maybe doesn't get uh the information that might have been more useful and so we do see a difference in in smith's body language there i think there is a touch of disappointment that he doesn't get you know more information out of him uh because um williams his countermeasure here to be unattractive to the interrogator is i'm very boring and the idea would be is that then ds smith goes oh yeah um hey lads have we got we've got a more interesting one to bring in because this one is is very very boring he's hoping to make himself super unattractive super uninteresting so this kind of goes over and we might swap him out for somebody better of course that isn't going to happen here because he's he's the option that they have right now and maybe even at this point as well i'm not quite sure when they get the shoe print from him i've been through the videos that we looked at not the whole thing and i can't see where his shoes leave him but at some point his his his boots he gives over his boots i think they did that before they started oh they did it before they start so they've literally brought him in and said can we have a look at your boots as you walk in by the way uh taking somebody's shoes one of the best ways to reduce their status one of the best ways if you've ever been to a british football match where the police are expecting crowd violence one of the things that the police will do is say you know ads give us your shoes before you go in and you'll go in barefoot so that they know that way less is gonna kick off not only is it hard to fight in bare feet and not get yourself damaged but you don't you don't feel safe so it's a great great reduction of status by taking people's shoes so he goes for the unattractiveness i'm very very boring but then what dear smith does is to bring in this idea of we don't want any surprises okay surprises would be bad and again that's building the futility of it the more surprises you give me the worse it's going to get for us here so give over the information but anyway first base bait question oh by the way i think the bait question always also has disassociation in it i've certainly got that in my notes but i can't remember how it's done so why not go back and look at that for me and put below how that bait question also has disassociation in it so it might not be somebody could kind of give you information which is applied to a version of you something distant from you not actually you in the room with me right now that's what i got on that one greg what do you got for me yeah so guys i'm trying not to be long-winded here because i'm about to go into the mechanics of interrogation we're going to talk about how this works how an interrogation actually works so we talked about approaches approaches are these levers these psychological ploys we use to get in someone's head and those include things like i'll list a handful of them and then we'll go from there direct people ask a question you answer or you don't incentive i offer you something you give it to me people have given me information for cookie or ice cream before it just works that way sometimes it's alcohol or something else emotional that means that means love or hate of something fear up and down and that can be harsh or it can be aggressive pride knee go up or down let me see if i can even uh repetition establish id all these things come together and then futility rapid fire all silence all of those are approaches and ways to get you to talk what you're seeing here is a very artful beginning now if he stumbled into it fantastic but i don't think so i think what he's doing with this pseudo-bait question is he is establishing we know all like that he said hey you had this security interview is there anything in there people might misunderstand that's that is a shot across the bow for hey i've seen your security interview i know a lot of stuff about you that is not public knowledge it's already starting down that path and it's very subtle but it's the first step now imagine i start bringing in the mechanics of this and what he's after is a reaction does he get a reaction go back and watch the video and turn the sound off watch him because he starts with that blink rate up his legs are crossed he throws that forehead up is he trying to you know he says this whole thing about it be very boring and his legs open his legs blossom wide open in kind of a cocky leg position after does it mean he's being cocky it means something changed ding ding ding what an orchestration is we talk about these 14 approaches none of them work in a vacuum the only one that works in a vacuum is direct hey chase did you do this well yeah greg i did it that's a direct but the rest of them we feather them together and we create this beautiful story that allows you to be the hero if the hero is telling us where the body is or something else all these approaches go together here comes this there's an incentive there's a carrot dangle going on right now while he's talking and that's i'm trying to allow you to save face he's starting those two approaches right now this is masterful and we're going to see later one of the single best sentences i've ever heard in interrogated liver so this is interrogation geeking for me because i've taught it for so many years i just love watching it thanks you need to calm down greg you're getting too into it i told you i'll geek on this one because this is masterful nobody's going to watch this anyway so if we were to uh to you know do a similar investigation in your background is there is there anything you can think of that anybody may have misinterpreted or anything in your history that somebody might say russell williams uh absolutely did this no okay very boring what's that it'll be very boring all right because essentially that's what i'm looking at is it uh um you seem like a very intelligent person and i think you can see how um a surprise like that would uh certainly some alarm bells investigation right russell um is there anything you can think of let's go talk about marie franz cuomo for a minute okay is there any reason at all you can think of that during our investigation obviously we're searching uh computers uh things like blackberries right electronic devices uh looking through houses for things that are in handwriting written notes diaries things like that um now i'm not a liberty to tell you what the content was but is there any reason at all you can think of why marie france como would have specifically referenced you in some of her some of her writings not at all no no absolutely not okay is there anything that she ever said to you that led you to believe that there might be something uh more than a passing interest with her towards you i don't know no we spent you know one flight together talking i'd go back occasionally and talk no if that's the case that's that's very surprising okay all right all right uh mark what do you got yeah so another bait question he's he's uh building on the last one you know there could be a sense there of williams thinks great if that's the best bait question that you have you know i got through that one well here comes another one and it has a couple of kind of non-sequiturs in it or or what you might call nested loops kind of interruptions in the pattern there so that look really logically if you went into that bass quick bait question all you'd come out with is like yeah you don't have anything do you you just don't have anything because that's what when you put those words together that dc smith says it basically says they actually don't have anything but you know could it be possible that there is something well he's in a place right now where he's not really able to undo that because we do see him uh take that bait and we do see him lean forward lean in you know look for that he is going what that what have they got so he thinks they have something he isn't cognitively um able at that point to deconstruct that question for what it is which is they don't have anything uh no written material in anybody's diaries or anything you know that references him uh anyway so he comes in though still because he sees he is pretty good he comes in with a strong denial no not at all but his head reels back right in there and then here for me is the significant change no absolutely not and i want you to go and listen to that tone of voice on no absolutely not and that's the biggest thing in there so yeah uh the ds does not get uh a big spiel of confession from him i don't know whether he's expecting that i think probably not you know he's on a build up of the futility of this but he does get a nice reaction and a nice tonal change out of him on that on that build there chase what do you have for me one thing that i tell everybody in our interrogation courses to purchase and bring with you in your briefcase because we you know a lot of these uh interiors are carrying these pocket recorders for their own recordings which is on the table there is a washcloth they come in handy big time they absorb a lot of sound in the room they just pick up voice wash cloths are extremely effective and so what we're doing here or what we're seeing here in this interrogation is a we're starting a a potential transition from what we call an interview to what we call an interrogation so right now we're still kind of in this phase that if you're depends on what technique you're looking at but this is the interview phase we're asking a series of very very pointed questions one of which is the bait question to determine whether or not we think there is a high or low likelihood that this person is guilty and that's what we're seeing here so once the interrogator determines this person's probably guilty then we go from interview mode to interrogation mode and that all starts with a confrontation which we're going to hear in a little bit and anytime we're saying is there any reason it's not a leading question so he provides a list of potential evidence like we just talked about before he says we're doing this we're searching computers and blackberries he's listing all the things but what he's actually doing is instructing william's mind exactly what to worry about so all the things he wouldn't have worried about otherwise he's telling him specifically what he needs to start worrying about before the question comes out and i think this big question is walking a little bit of a thin line between saying there is something there isn't but i think he's still on the right side for sure but i think the interest level of a suspect in whether or not they want to discover more they want to learn what you have and what's going on before they answer so they're holding back before they answer this is a guilty behavior doesn't mean guilt it suggests skill and we see this again confirmed with speaking in fragments the movement is sped up with these jerky responsive movements and this stress behavior his arms haven't moved he's still locked in place greg yeah i think one of the things you just hits key a person who is being accused of something is not going to be interested in the case they're going to be interested in getting the hell out of there the more interest they show in the case the more liable they are to wanting to know what it is you have and i think that's a great call out chase in terms of the bait question you're right it's not a leading question it's a poke it's a it's a prod it's a look to see it's a start to do a we know all approach it start to say look we got stuff you don't know about and we're going to share it with you slowly and i'm going to slowly choke you that's the way it goes because he's got no gum remember i said in the beginning big mistake to start off with gum all the energy is going to go somewhere because your energy level is going to increase when you come into an interrogation not decrease now you might just get worn out but trust me after having done a 14 hour interrogation you don't get the opportunity to get worn out because we keep poking and prodding and making your head turn up you have fight or flight so he does a deep swallow his jaw clinches instead of milling and when he does that thing mark where he does that i'm i'm not sure i understand that fake glance and that fake disbelief chase scott you talk about this all the time that fake disbelief is gone in a microsecond it doesn't look real if you accuse me something i'd be like what not gone that quickly so good indicator it means something remember he should have kept his legs in front of him now his feet are under his chair and he's leaning forward he's all bunched up all that baseline has shifted from when he was denying things in the beginning when he said none at all he made way too much eye contact like he was trying to hypnotize he said no absolutely not laugh really really you're going to do that sitting in front of this guy and the guy catches it i guarantee you then he goes no not at all he has a lilt and his entire demeanor shifts and he does that little shoulder to shoulder head bobble thing one of the best parts of this entire thing is in my opinion this guy just took the biggest boldest step possible when he said or maybe she said to you that's bold because if you never talked to her you would say i never talked to her and you would never think anything of it because you would do that however what happens to williams he falls for it and says no we talked about this we went i went to the back of the plane twice and talked to her okay that's an old interrogation trick i used to teach people all the time if you go through basic interrogator course they'll teach you ask every question are you married what is your wife's name well that's dumb because the human brain finds patterns and if i say tell me your wife's name tell me your child's name tell me your oldest son's name your brain starts to think i know all that and that's what he's doing here this is powerful he's he's continuing that we know all with this bait question too and he's driving a powerful a powerful message that we know more than you think we do and just wait we'll show you that bait question is powerful scott what do you got all right um well you see his breathe his breathing rate goes it gets pretty shallow here it starts uh jacking down some but for me i think this was the ebay question i thought this was great because the way he sets this up not only does he start asking the question he puts him on notice that that's coming but then he waits and while he's waiting and talking about this other part of the question boy that brain starts blowing up and he starts creating this world in there of all this stuff going on that he's not sure what he knows and what's he going to say what's he going to say for me when we were when i was going through these this is one of those things where and i'm sure it was for you guys as well you're sitting there thinking oh my god this is this is awesome this is awesome because we're watching this guy get worked up in here oh it's his execution of that it's just beautiful um then and and he starts you're right greg he starts to freeze up he starts to get to where he's we can see him start closing down at this point and um and then you cover the head snap back uh when he's but he says absolutely not again saying the word absolutely does not mean you're guilty does not mean you're lying does not mean you're innocent or anything else but you sure hear it a lot when somebody's done something they shouldn't have done and you ask them did they do it they said absolutely not when he says i'm not liberty to tell you what what the content was that's when it looks like he's taking a punch almost because his head kicks back like that's when it hits him that you know well there shouldn't be anything in there and he's trying to to look like he's acting reacting naturally and that's a big cue right there as soon as you see something like that then um let's see where else y'all covered most all the stuff but man this is it's so good it's just such a wonderful setup this guy's it's almost like a game you know it is a game but it but he is literally getting this guy boxed in body language wise we'll see a lot of times in the old days you referred to interrogators as a box man they were boxing men and because you're boxing the person in when you're trying to get them to to so there's no way out of the box and you have to say okay i did it in other words and that's what he's doing he's doing it not just uh from the talking to him point of view from the from the uh the vernacular he's using the words he's using the construction of the senses and questions he's using the statements he's saying but he's also boxing him in body language wise we'll see that and there's a reason for that too but we'll get that to the end i'm sorry i'm getting excited here i'll move on all right uh are we good yeah i want to know what school this guy went to yeah oh man the combination you can tell that williams knows what's going on what do you know he knows what the bank knows what a bait question is and he and he's like oh man here it comes i'm there so he's having a separate conversation this internal dialogue going oh oh no he may not know what a bait question is scott but he certainly knows what interrogation approaches are yeah yeah if he does know what a bait question is he's lost his memory of that through arrogance he's walked in there this is this is an opp you know ds so so it's like this is this is a nobody out in the in the boonies this is a nobody whose interview but i think he i think he does know what he is i used to run a base okay and and i'm about to be interviewed by a nobody and i'm about to get away with this i think you're right i think he thinks that guide is just going to be a pushover i think you but i also think he knows of interrogation approaches and he's hearing a couple of them no he's not what he's not seeing is the masterful build up of what's coming that's what he's missing yeah and you're right mark that's where the arrogance misses that but i think i think he i think he knows something's up and if he just can't figure out what it is that might be it but i think he knows what's happening because i guess i can see that second inner dialogue going on in there of oh no because it's his i think it's that big difference between knowing about a bait question and being in that situation he's like three out he's like i know how many hours into it like he pretty much confesses three hours in or something something around that like so you know somebody listens to this and hears about bait question yeah but then have three in a row and you've committed a crime and like yeah you know like i've not been through i know what they're doing but i've not been through that process with with a ds in front of me the first thing i would do is go give me a lawyer okay i'm walking out because there's no way i'm sitting down here and i'm answering any questions about anything you arrest me or i'm walking her and if you arrest me you know i'm still not speaking i want a lawyer i'm getting a lawyer russell um is there anything you can think of let's go talk about marie franz cuomo for a minute okay is there any reason at all you can think of that during our investigation obviously we're searching uh computers uh things like blackberries right electronic devices looking through houses for things that are in handwriting written notes diaries things like that now i'm not a liberty to tell you what the content was but is there any reason at all you can think of why marie france como would have specifically referenced you in some of her uh some of her writings not at all no no absolutely okay is there anything that she ever said to you that led you to believe that there might be something more than a passing interest with her towards you i don't know no we spent you know one flight together talking i'd go back occasionally and talk no if that's the case that's it that's very surprising okay all right god um you have any questions for me right now no okay i'm just gonna step out and see how things are going okay i mean it is a sunday but there's probably 60 70 people working on this file so there's a lot of things happening sure uh so let me go and see what's happening and then i'll uh i'll come back in and we'll hopefully continue okay i told you when i came in here uh that i'm gonna treat you with respect and i've asked you to do the same for me um we talked about the whole idea of how we've uh approached you here okay uh the trying to be as just read as possible okay but the problem is russell is every time i walk out of this room there's another issue that comes up okay and it's not issues that point away from you it's issues that point at you okay and i want to i want you to see what i mean all right okay greg what do you got so first chase i'd say have you ever anybody grab your file and dossier off the table and try to dispose of it in the media in yeah it happens in real life and my favorite thing is you do realize we have more copies right but people will grab that because they're so afraid of it it is so powerful and this continuation of we know all the viet the guys who came back from vietnam referred to it as following dossier and it was a way to track all their life now you already said you got a security clearance if you've got a security clearance you know you got a tremendous amount of information on him um watch his chest tighten even before the guy walks out watch it but when he comes back watch his eyes riveted to that folder its power that represents everything in the world to him not this investigator who's now become his friend by using words like respect and come on russ who's doing we know all who's doing this file it's a way to take it off of me and you and not make it about us it makes it about the crime and the crime is contained in that folder so that i get your trust it's powerful it works i got a note down here boa constrictor chase you talked about earlier when a person has their arms around them and whether they're gripping themselves or not this guy can't breathe because he's gripping himself so tight every time he exhales he can't inhale just like a boy constrictor and if you watch him his shout his breathing gets shallower and shallower and he stops talking and starts grunting he's barely emitting sound great indicator we're getting him in his brain case now he's going back into himself he's not outward he's not communicating effectively and that whole facade starting to crack this is the beginning of what we all recognize as pre-confession pose we'll see it really pronounced in the next in the next videos coming up but this is a great start to it chase what do you got the eyes on the folder is fabulous i've seen it so many times yep even if the folder uh in many cases hypothetically of course well it's just full of a bunch of blank pieces of paper and their name on it a lot yeah a lot of interrogators do that and we'll talk about some of the ways uh that that happens here in a minute but i like in this he's doing a great job of showing all the negativity that's taking place anything that's negative going on is outside that door it's not me and he's using team pronouns what are we going to do here i'd like for us to get this handled i don't know what they are going to do which is great this is why when i train police departments i say you should almost never have an officer in uniform in the room conducting an interrogation it should always be a plane a plane closed person most of the time uh and and i subscribe to a different interrogation theory then probably scott or greg my personal philosophy is that if the person knows there's an interrogation happening then i have lost so i i do a completely different game than you guys do you guys do a lot more uh criminal stuff anyway my uh my job was a little different the 60 to 70 people that are working on this is is a build up for the technique the credibility of evidentiary findings so we see his immediate shift to chest breathing here these rapid movements rapid compliance it's if you look at this again when the video plays again i want you to look at this it's like a maybe an eight or nine year old who's been scolded and then said sit here i'll be back in a few minutes you see the same fear responses there and it's not deceptive but it's a lack of information and it is really high stress and guilty people will tend to want to see what you have on them before they continue to speak so that's why his eyes are locked on the folder innocent people typically when in my experience don't lock on the folder like that and a lot of times it's it's doesn't have evidence in there we're going to see that in a second too i'll be talking about that and in many interrogation schools they say in a situation like this we need to apply minimization or rationalization so minimization it's not that big a deal i've seen way worse cases or rationalization uh they had it coming anyone in your situation would have done the same thing that kind of stuff not in cases like this so typically there's damage control recognition saving face significance or getting in front of the problem especially in these cases and and that's all i'll say about that and uh mark i'll give it over to you oh wait did mark go uh no no i'll go all right um yeah so um yeah what i love about the diaz here is is he knows he's got this folder in the back and i think really he's got at this point he's got about a couple of things in that folder at max he has proximity because the next door neighbor didn't work out so he's next in row so that's why he's in it's like okay he's next door neighbor to the next door neighbor um there's something about tire width and maybe they work this shoe out shoe thing out at this point i'm i'm you know i think they have so he's maybe got three things three things in that in that folder pretty thick folder for three things so so any comes but before he plays that he says he got any questions for me now what i love about that is before he plays any of his cards he's always open to going hey uh just you know talk i'm giving you an option to talk right now give me something if you want to give me something now it doesn't it doesn't deliver anything but what what a brilliant play you know you know you have potentially your best card in the back but you don't rush to it you go i can play that at any point i'm going to try another way before i go and play that i'm just going to go you've got any questions for me and see what happens nothing transpires but i think that's really great technique not to play that card immediately so he does come back in and yeah we we are seeing a lot of stress there he's locked down his breathing rate is is is right up and again the futility is pushed on him every time i walk out of this this room there's another issue that comes up it's the futility of do not let me walk out of this room again every time i walk out of this room there's another issue that comes up it's like we gotta solve it together right now and i and i i love that because it's it's pushing the drama in and and this is a a classic dramatic uh convention you know in hamlet it's like poland are coming don't let poland come and it heats up it creates this crucible where the thing needs to get solved right there and then because we don't want the outside influence crushing in on us so brilliantly played there that's what i got on that one who got left me oh god yeah so when he come this is a real that really the first confrontational uh situation we've seen it when he confronts him with with when he comes in and says you know i've showed you respect in other words you know he's saying you're not showing me respect there are a couple of ways to go about doing this when you first come in and he did it right because he came in and he was standing when he started saying this and he hit the word here uh really hard but one of the one of the when i get a call from somebody from wherever they are and they go what so how should i handle this part of it i always say when you go in lean on the table you may ever see that that picture joe navarro where he's leaning on the table he's leaning over not that hardcore but you lean on the table you look at him and say listen is there any reason whatsoever so you look at him while you're why when you when you start into that when you start that confrontation you're dead item he's not doing that because he's playing that accountant thing where he's like hey man these guys i'll tell you what here's it's columbo and i got to tell them back they really want to know i'm just here because i'm working here great he houses very well but that's like chase was saying different styles of approaching these things whereas greg and i may be a little bit more aggressive this guy is really being laid back as he's doing this and it works great it's perfect for this obviously um because when he leaves to check see the one thing we didn't have was was the video of him sitting there by himself because i don't know how long this guy's been gone i would love to see that love to see him sit there squirm thinking seeing that head going those eyes going back and forth and he rearranging as we got in there because now he's in that position where chase was saying earlier it does and and greg's agreeing and everybody's grand it doesn't really mean much you know when you're doing that now it means everything you think you it means you've always heard it means the person is stressed they're not into what's being said and they're they're guarding themselves that's what we're seeing here because his feet are starting to cross his arms across he's laying back a little bit he's pushed back in that chair we're seeing all the classic signs of oh you know what at this point then um he goes back to reciprocity where he said when he says you know i've been i've been treating you with respect and again he's leaning into that you're not treating me with respect because you're not being completely honest with me and there are not 60 or 70 people working on this there's there's probably nine other homicides they're working on on this thing but he blows this thing up in this guy's mind like oh my god all these people are doing it's like ants running around working on figuring this this thing out that's not happening that's not he may have told him that i don't know if you guys have any experience anywhere else but i've never seen that 60 or 70 people just there might not be 60 or 70 people there you know much less working on one homicide case departments aren't that big so uh then he said um yeah when i came back when he comes back he said i told you i'd treat you the same way that i ask you hey i ask you to do the same thing that's where he kind of sticks it up there and says i ask you to do this the same thing that's he's getting aggressive with him there so now it's on at this point it's the the whole thing is he knows he's pinned and he's getting ready to box him in here in just a couple of minutes so uh so anyway that's all i've got everybody else yeah chase couple of things you know remember it does vary like i to be if you're going to be a hard ass and you're going to do that in law enforcement that might be one thing but if you're doing intelligence interrogation or you're doing something with and remember that's my ball of wax is intelligence and then counter-terror that's a different angle and then police is a different angle than what scott does he has to go in and win these guys over so guys what we want you to hear is every one of these has to take a different approach and so as a good interrogator you get i always say it's theater for one you got to be believable from the outside it might look goofy but if you're believable to the guy sitting across the table from you that's what matters and he's believable to this guy because he's taking the right approach it often honestly intelligence interrogation where you're trying to get a guy to commit treason is much like this investigation where the guy's gonna roll over and die i mean his career is over itself it's this is personal extinction for this guy so all that subtlety has to go into it and i think that's a great call out chase and mark what you're hitting on with the futility all this stuff is starting to come together and the futility will come in one sentence and it's a beautiful close when he does it i think it comes together nicely yeah great stuff and i will say to your point greg the one of the best things i've learned in interrogation is it costs less uh cognitive energy to actually care temporarily just to plug that in so so i i never feel like i'm acting especially in the moment i do i do the best i can to actually care to where i'm not acting because it that just burns me out but that's a personal thing for me well if you don't have enough intellectual curiosity to wonder why the guy did it don't go in this business because if you don't really care why the guy did it you can't do this because it's demanding but if you really care and you're interested you can meet some horrific people have done horrific things and sometimes in their own mind for the right reason it's really interesting work so anyway yeah yeah and greg you're right it's theater that's that's the way i start off i say keep in mind what this is it's theater for one and once you get that in your brain that that's what's going on i never say it's a game but it really is i mean all it is is this big chess game going on yep yeah i'm getting to work sometimes it's checkers it just depends on the person um you have any questions for me right now no okay i'm just gonna step out and see how things are going okay i mean it is a sunday but there's probably 60 70 people working on this file so there's a lot of things happening sure uh so let me go out and see what's happening and then i'll uh i'll come back in and we'll hopefully continue okay i told you when i came in here uh that i'm gonna treat you with respect and i've asked you to do the same for me um we talked about the whole idea of how we've uh approached you here okay uh the trying to be as just read as possible okay but the problem is russell is every time i walk out of this room there's another issue that comes up okay and it's not issues that point away from you it's issues that point at you okay and i wanna i want you to see what i mean all right that's true too that's true too this is the footwear impression of the person who approached the rear of jessica lloyd's house on the evening of the 28th and 29th of january okay all right now i want you to keep in mind that this is slightly smaller okay in scale okay okay all right that's not to scale that's the footwear is actually bigger if you look here on the ruler you'll see that uh one inch is just slightly smaller than actual inch okay but this is the way it prints off on the computer i'm gonna move this over so you can see what i mean all right essentially when you're dealing with footwear impressions um we have a gentleman on the opp who's uh basically world renowned uh his name is john norman and essentially with footwear impressions uh you're in a situation where you're you're pretty much in the area of a fingerprints okay and essentially what we're talking about here is especially when you start adding in other pieces of information that support uh an investigative position okay this is a photocopy of the boot that uh you took off your foot yeah just a little while ago okay now i'm not an expert in footwear impressions so i rely on the experts footwear impressions are very much like like fingerprint comparisons okay you take a look at this print and again this is one print this person walked through there's several different prints to compare so we're gonna get features off of one print to compare features offer another print and compare these are identical okay your vehicle drove up the side of jessica lloyd's house your boots walked to the back of jessica lloyd's house on the evening of the 28th and 29th of january okay you want discretion we need to have some honesty okay because this is this is getting out of control really fast russell okay really really fast this is getting beyond my control all right i came in here a few hours ago and i called you the way i called you today because i wanted to give you the benefit out but you and i both know you're at jessica lloyd's house and i need to know why so uh greg what do you got yeah so now his face has stopped all movement he's got a fake confusion thing again and it's gone rapidly he's got shorter utterances you can see he's just kind of falling apart now on the other side from the interrogator the we know all is here tightly look it's your vehicle your boots you progressively tighter loop and then he goes out of his way to say look i've been trying to help you there's a clear accusation there's a trust request again it's that whole thing of look i i gave you this there's the dangling the carrot there's one last incentive look i'm gonna try to help you but you have to help me too you can hear i'm your advocate but things are running out very quickly there's an incentive with a timeline and this feeds to his next ploy which is going to be okay i'm going to take away the carrot if you don't do what i need you to do but there's fake confusion there's short utterances remember i talk about a guy being trapped in his own head when a person's trapped in their own head everything slows down and they sit there and they think they're thinking at normal speed but they're actually sorry to giggle but they think they're thinking at normal speed and they're rolling over dumb ideas in their head at increasingly snail-like pace so the silences get longer and longer and longer and chase you hit it dead on the master interrogator sits there quietly and waits the junior interrogator feels like they need to keep adding details women you're watching our show you know men don't know when to shut up talking when they're trying to close a deal on a date or any of that kind of thing men are masterful talkers in their own minds we don't know when to shut up and this is a good example most interrogators don't know when to shut up the reason women become masterful interrogators is because they listen they stop and they're quiet you also will notice once he does have anything to grasp onto his head whips toward it when the guy mentions something his head whips like a like he's in some kind of a crazy place all these things being called out do we hear a single denial anywhere not one this guy's in his own little brain case spinning in circles right now at a very slow rate of speed and he feels like he's moving rapidly uh mark what do you get yeah so first brilliant thing that happens here is uh the dc manages to shift williams from his um from his resistance posture and he does that by you know what you'd normally do if you were being polite and giving somebody something you'd hand it right into their space what he does is just push it forward onto the table where it's not going to be quite visible so williams has to come forward open up his body and destabilize himself so again first of all we make our places and then those places decide how we're going to act and react the way we're going to think so he destabilizes him with this it's a technique that i'll often use if i want to get information out of people or them to tell me stuff that they wouldn't normally tell me so quickly i'll just say hey just take a look at this for me and let's look at it together and by getting their eyes down onto the document or the drawing or whatever it is i can then scooch by right next to them sit right next to them we're not we've not got eye contact so there's no um there's no aggression there's no pushback there and we can sit and we can talk about what we have in front of us we can make that the problem and if we make this the problem and the issue they'll start talking about that problem and that issue rather than it being a problem and an issue between us in antagonism so it's great that he manages to shift him from that resistance posture use him doing the comparison they're trying to work out you know are there is there is there something that could be different enough that i could go hey that's not my boot but there's nothing there so he ends up nodding along to the thesis uh smith is laying on just a lot of futility here but he does soften it by giving him an exit you know it was your vehicle your boots not saying you did it just saying can we can we just sign up to the idea that your vehicle and your boots i'm not saying you were in the boots at the time we'll get there eventually but if you want to go yo so it was possibly my yeah i mean i guess it could have been my boots okay great so explain that how how would have your boots been go if we're saying it's your boots how did that happen it's a great option that he might sign up to the boost i think we see some contempt and disdain there i'm not sure when i just have it as a note here so take take a look back there i haven't said when it is at all and what it's to do with but i've said here but i that i saw it so um so so go find it for me and tell me where it was uh look what's wonderful about this is he's pretty much done now he's trapped and at this point he says i don't know what to say i don't know what to say so he's got nothing to get himself out of this and so at this point i would suggest psychologically he's now going to accept help if you give him some help he's going to go thank you very much because i'm out of ideas right now so i would say dc smith has him he has him there in a position where he may well accept some help uh in this situation uh who we got next scott okay all right well uh and then there's a little folder that he pulls out i've got one thing i always teach and it's the thunk factor when you pull out that folder it's got to go thunk really loud and you push it away so they can't get to it i've never anybody grabbed mine before but so the the bigger it is the thunkier it is but the more power that thing has in it um the time he takes to explain what's happening to the time he confronts him with that a minute and 53 seconds that is so wow as he starts going through that and explaining to him what these things are it's just if you'll notice it's just an inch difference in the thing this guy's freaking out in there he's flipping out so he's thinking what did they know and when he finally says when he tells him he's he's nailed oh my goodness but it takes a minute 53 seconds to get in there and up to that point i don't know if you guys have ever shown a kid like a card trick or some kind of magic trick and you're sitting there doing it a little kid comes up the table and this is exactly what he looks like is he's looking he's watching trying to figure out what the hell is that what the hell is going on so that that's what that reminds me of he's so he's so focused it's it's humorous it's funny i don't know why this guy wasn't laughing at him um oh man i've got so much stuff on here the but and like going back to mark's thing a buddy of mine uh jason was a sergeant or and greg's men over at um here in nashville and on in the homicide department and as we were talking about getting people to open up a little bit and so what he said he would always do if somebody was all all quirked up like this all corked up what he would do is say hey man why don't you will you draw will you draw something or you sign something he'll bring something over so they have to go okay and go over here and sign it i thought that was brilliant and i never thought of it you know it's so simple but it's so easy to get them to do it um yeah this is we're just i i'm just this is one of those things in a couple minutes it's going to be like a football game and because you you see for us not for the person watching this you're watching this is boring for you but we're going to get all worked up because i do anyway because it's almost like a football game he's headed down toward the the touchdown and you're you just want to start screaming yeah man you got it but it's quiet there's nothing going on and when we talk about how this is going to be boring and there's not a lot going on it looks really unexciting but we we like it this is what we're talking about this is the big action this is that i don't know what the free throw shot is from a long ways away i'm not a sports guy whatever it is this is that of the hill yeah yeah not hail mary but it's it's that that play where the guy's running down the field and nobody's touching him but he's but they're in front of him and you're yelling for him to get to get through it's so exciting at this point josh is so horribly nerdy to be saying that but as quiet as it is but it's it's anyway so that's this is coming up on the most exciting part of the whole thing uh chase what do you got you muted don't say anything all right chase what do you got i don't know a whole lot about uh crime scene stuff i do know that uh you can present fake evidence in the united states but before we get to that this leaning forward thing if you think of the time that you signed the documents to buy your first house the time you decided to go home with someone at the end of a date the time you decided to marry a person the time you decided to buy a car that maybe you knew you shouldn't do any big decision we lean forward anytime i'm training in persuasion interrogation doesn't matter what it is we make big decisions with our backs off of a chair so the rule of thumb there that i have up on a slide or whatever behind me is never ask a person to make a decision while their back is touching a chair slide them a cup of water slide a document across the table for them to look at or lean forward and start speaking in a little bit lower tone which we call a conspiratorial tone like you're going to tell them a secret get them to lean forward leaning forward automatically for most people going to open their arms up so back to fake evidence fake evidence is legal sadly and maybe it's a good thing for all the interrogators and police but it is there and it is legal and it can be presented pretty well and i just uh downloaded this crime scene photo of uh one of the footprints from a suspect in canada here which you guys may recognize you'll never take me alive it looks very official looks very official that's how easy it is to build that folder and plop it on the table like like scott was saying so in an interrogation that is a big deal his interest level in the evidence would set my meter off where i would just about bet my reputation that the guy's guilty just that one reaction of his anticipatory response to examine the evidence innocent people will look at it and say there's not there's no possibility that there's a match i wasn't there didn't do it i know i wasn't there i don't need to take a look at that unless you're forging something so i think he's saying footwear and all this other stuff is in the is in the realm of uh of finger prints i don't know if that's uh a deal or not i'm not an expert i'm definitely not an expert in that kind of stuff but his willingness is a bad sign to to investigate this stuff and he's saying these are identical williams is nodding so the first thing you learn in writing uh fiction and writing a fiction book is to set a ticking clock from the very beginning or close to the beginning a ticking clock and sometimes it's it's a true ticking clock like in the movie uh speed where there's a real clock but in other times it's we have to get this file from this office building that's locked up within the next 48 hours or something's going to happen he's doing this it gets him out of control these people are coming in when they come through that door i don't this we're going to lose control really fast he's and he says this is going to be beyond my control which is a a beautiful statement here and then he does a what's called a compound understanding when he says we both know x i need to know why so this is a what's called a light alternative question and that would have been great there to say is it because of a or is it you know the bad the bad thing and and if i'm investigating some kind of embezzlement or somebody took some money from a company i might say there's a human trafficking investigation going on right now that's downtown they're they're laundering a ton of money or they're they're pulling in a lot of trafficking money into human trafficking if this is not related to that i need to know right now this was just a simple mistake and you're not feeding these people this money i need to know as soon as possible so that's an alternative question where it's a horrible thing or maybe it was a mistake so all of his comments have been about status rank privilege and these can be leveraged here so that would be one of those things where you said well if you were just there to check on someone who maybe you thought they were in trouble that's a whole different thing than you know you being a bad guy but i still think this is absolutely masterful i'm not saying he didn't do it or he did anything wrong the long pause the lack of denial indicators of guilt and i would say just about everybody in this situation and when he says i don't know what to say this is begging for help and this is the box he's about to put the lid on that's all i got hey at the risk of making this any longer also when people are interested they lean forward they put their hands on the document when they're not your hands go on their thighs and they lean forward to look at it like it's a poisonous snake in a box watch them yeah that's it like chase what you're saying about fake evidence if you do have a a folder full of stuff you have it too much and make sure that some of it it pokes out then you can have a little plastic thing on there so you can peel off a name and put another one on and use the same one pretty much every time you're going to do something like that theoretically that and the thumb factor has got to be something good this is the footwear impression of the person who approached the rear of jessica lloyd's house on the evening of the 28th and 29th of january okay all right now i want you to keep in mind that this is slightly smaller okay in scale okay okay all right that's not to scale that's the footwear is actually bigger if you look here on the ruler you'll see that uh one inch is just slightly smaller than actual inch okay but this is the way it prints off on the computer i'm gonna move this over so you can see what i mean all right essentially when you're dealing with football impressions um we have a gentleman on the opp who's uh basically world renowned his name is john norman and essentially with footwear impressions uh you're in a situation where you're you're pretty much in the area of a fingerprints okay and essentially what we're talking about here is especially when you start adding in other pieces of information that support uh an investigative position okay this is a photocopy of the boot that uh you took off your foot yeah just a little while ago okay now i'm not an expert in footwear impressions so i rely on the experts footwear impressions are very much like uh like fingerprint comparisons okay you take a look at this print and again this is one print this person walked through there's several different prints to compare so we're going to get features off of one print to compare features offer another print and compare these are identical your vehicle drove up the side of jessica lloyd's house your boots walked to the back of jessica lloyd's house on the evening of the 28th and 29th of january okay you want discretion we need to have some honesty okay because this is this is getting out of control really fast russell okay really really fast hmm this is getting beyond my control all right i came in here a few hours ago and i called you the way i called you today because i wanted to give you the benefit out but you and i both know you're at jessica lloyd's house and i need to know why well you need to explain it because this is the other problem we're having wrestle okay again these decisions are made by me right now there's a search warrant being executed at your residence so your wife now knows what's going on there's another search warrant executed at the your residence in tweed and your vehicle has been seized okay you and i both know they're going to find evidence that links you to these situations you and i both know that the unknown offender male 1 marie france cuomo's body is going to be matched to you quite possibly before the evening's over okay this is a major investigation the center of forensic science is on call 24 hours a day helping us with this your opportunity to take some control here and to have some explanation that anybody is going to believe is quickly expiring okay we're applying the investigators now applying for a warrant to search your office these aren't decisions that we can say yes or no to this is a practical steps in an investigation like this and russell awesome listen to me for a second okay and that evidence comes in when that dna match when that phone rings and somebody knocks on this door [Music] your credibility is gone okay because this is how credibility works all right and i know you're an intelligent person and you probably don't need to hear this explanation but i also know your mind's racing right now okay because i've sat across a lot of people in your position over the years okay the bottom line is is that as soon as we get that that piece of evidence that solidifies it dna okay as soon as the expert in footwear impressions the expert entire impression calls and says yes i've examined those and their match it's all over because as soon as that happens where's your credibility where's your believability you're just another and again don't take this wrong okay but you can see if you step outside this room in your mind and imagine how people are going to view you okay if the truth comes out after the clear evidence is presented to you when you finally go okay i'm screwed now all right mark what do you got yeah so he's given the opportunity here to take back some control and and that opportunity is pretty overt here and that he says this is an opportunity to take back some control the the ds is very very clear about uh about that what i love and and and um uh chase you were talking about this conspiratorial um i guess tonality you were maybe saying he does he does move his hands into the what i would call the gesture plane of closure and disclosure which is a great place to be conspiratorial with people around the around the face because you can you can be covert and then very overt but still in a covert way and essentially that's what he's doing is is going hey we can we can work this out together we don't have to bring in them over there let's not let them in okay let's let's you and me get back some control around this so some very skillful play there of offering him what he wants which is to get control back and you're gonna get that through me and that plays out really nicely for him because he does only in the end want to talk to this ds he wants to deal completely through him he wants him to call him uh russ and not russell you know this is now his best best friend because this best friend is secretly gonna get him out of out of trouble here because he's not tall he's gonna he's gonna absolutely slam the lid on him so there's there that's what i'll give you uh on that who we got next greg sure yeah so there's a an act of submission that is one of the most powerful and that is putting the top of your skull in someone's striking range his skull is in striking range right now in this guy he's laid to put his head down when you think of bowing that's absolutely showing the most vulnerable part of your body you can't see anymore your eyes are focused on the ground his head is down he's trapped in inner voice this guy is now scrambling all he's doing is revolving around whatever's being said to him he's reducing his utterances to you can barely understand him that's all low energy that's all internal focus all in internal conversation we've now got him mark when he puts his his hand to his his mouth when he starts to do that it's pre-confession now i also want you to go back and watch remember i'm going to talk good things about this interrogator but there's a duck moment instead of swan moment in here go find it tell me where you see him go uh oh you'll hear him double clutch meaning he's gonna step on himself one time and you can see it he's like oh i think i just shot myself in the foot find it write it in the comments below this is a great moment one of the few we see in this guy so when i'm criticizing it's not criticizing because i think he's not good it's just he's self-aware enough to realize he's made a mistake we talked approaches he is doing pride and ego up i know you're an intelligent man he's doing fear up figure out people think of throwing chairs and screaming no it's hey there's a bear on the other side of that wall right there and now i got one can of bear spray and it's not for you that's a fear up that's not screaming and yelling that's letting him know there's a threat and he has to do something about it it's inevitable you've seen the evidence everybody's seen the evidence there's a lot of people working on this there's futility without saying it's futile we know all we have more information than we've even given you and then there's that incentive there's still a little bit of a chance that you can leave this with some dignity that's beautiful stuff all starting to come together he hasn't pulled it all together yet he's mentioning them individually in the next round you're going to hear the most masterful sentence i've heard in interrogation in many years where he just it all locks together and it's a beautiful thing he's giving him permission to confess he's being silent and he's allowing this guy to work and it's working it's getting in his head scott what do you got all right i'll keep this one short uh he's he's about to give up if he he he hasn't just yet but he knows he's gonna have to that's that's where his head's sitting but he hasn't yet but he's getting right there and he starts hitting him with this evidence like one two three and you can see there's he knows there's no way out of this at this point he knows it and and smith never uses we us he always says you and i so at this point it gets back to uh those that out there back to hey man it's me and you so and then he start then he throws out the the lifeline saying and giving him hope of having walking out there with some respect um it's okay that's all i'll say keep it short chase what do you got i think it's great that he phrases everything positive and in this room everything that's negative is going to happen is is out there and these were executing a warrant on your house these are decisions we we don't have a choice in you and i we can't stop these things from happening and he uses the word unknown offender uh to describe the the person i just personally would have used the word person i would never use a negative connotation uh for the criminal or the crime so instead of murder i would i would say hurt or something similar to that a very good job here using the victim's actual name instead of saying the word victim i think and your opportunity to take some control here when he's saying this sentence absolutely brilliant and he sees him pouring through the evidence and stops and he decides to just kind of i'm going to back off a little bit i'm just let let all of these gears spin because he set the machine in in motion and it's good to no longer use their name toward the confession the closer you get towards a confession the less often you want to use their name that's what their parents call them that's what their friends call them that's what their identity their ego their confidence is tied to that name you you want to take it take that away and just say hey what are we going to do here leave the name off so he's using what's called presuppositions when they find this when they knock on the door when this happens all of these things as soon as the experts tell us x y and z it's all over so instead of letting him sit there and stew and think of things he did that for a few minutes and then just in case his software wasn't processing all these other stuff he literally uploaded and installed all the software he needs to make all that happen instead of just letting it happen to natural means which i think is fantastic that's one of the things that i teach just that deliberately installing exactly the program that you need to start running so he's forcing him our brain is a prediction machine it's number one job is besides keeping your heart beating and breathing is making predictions so he's forcing williams to accept new data to add to the prediction formula in his head so the outcome changes we're making the outcome darker and darker as it goes on brilliant work here can't wait for the next video this is this is great that's all i got well you need to explain it because this is the other problem we're having russell okay again these decisions are made by me right now there's a search warrant being executed at your residence okay so your wife now knows what's going on there's another search warrant being executed at the your residence lead and your vehicle has been seized okay you and i both know they're going to find evidence that links you to these situations okay you and i both know that the unknown offender male 1 on marie france cuomo's body is going to be matched to you quite possibly before the evening's over okay this is a major investigation the center forensic science is on call 24 hours a day helping us with this your opportunity to take some control here and to have some explanation that anybody is going to believe is quickly expiring okay we're applying the investigators now applying for a warrant to search your office these aren't decisions that we can say yes or no to this is a practical steps in an investigation like this and russell russell listen to me for a second okay and that evidence comes in when that dna match when that phone rings and somebody knocks on this door [Music] your credibility is gone okay because this is how credibility works all right and i know you're an intelligent person and you probably don't need to hear this explanation but i also know your mind's racing right now okay because i've sat across a lot of people in your position over the years okay the bottom line is is that as soon as we get that that piece of evidence that solidifies it dna okay as soon as the expert in footwear impressions the expert entire impression calls and says yes i've examined those and their match it's all over because as soon as that happens where's your credibility where's your believability you're just another and again don't take this wrong okay but you can see if you step outside this room in your mind and imagine how people are going to view you okay if the truth comes out after the clear evidence is presented to you when you finally go okay i'm screwed now russell you know there's only one option what do you what do you what other option is there what's the option well i don't think you want the cold-blooded psychopath option i might be wrong okay because don't get me wrong i've met guys who actually kind of enjoyed the notoriety got off on it got off on having that label bernardo being one of them i don't see that in you if i saw that in you i wouldn't be back in here talking to you quite frankly but maybe i'm wrong maybe you got me fooled i don't know this is over and it can have a a bad ending where jessica's parents continue to wonder where her daughter's lying i don't know i mean obviously there's a huge search still underway and it'll continue it'll continue until her body's found that might even happen tonight for all i know once that happens then i don't know what other cards you would have to play what are we going to do okay i'm gonna dress is jessica somewhere we can find her easily like is this something where i can make a call and tell somebody to go to a location and they're going to find her or is this something where we have to go and take a walk all right greg you go first sure this is my favorite ever pre-confession bite let's talk about both of them individually because i want to celebrate this investigator in his own sentence but in the beginning this guy's asking for now you can't miss it he starts the pre-confession thing he's dropping his chin he's trying to get away from from this he's looking away listen to his respiration he's going into a very emotional respiration rate almost like he's about to cry you can hear emotions starting to take over now remember i talk about cat brain monkey brain lizard brain this guy's getting out of cat brain and heading back into monkey back in the lizard brain he's getting to where he's just barely functioning and he's rifling around inside his own head and running around in there like a like i said before in his own brain case so now he's given an out and you see that emotion starting to take control of him he starts to do some throat protecting and then ultimately he puts his hand up this way and balls up there's a very famous confession by a guy about by of a guy named rex krebs who killed rachel newhouse in california a few years ago when you show that video it's beautiful and is exactly what he does it takes longer than this guy does because the guy was not quite as good at closing in on him during interrogation now this investigator runs an approach now we talked about approaches before he does pride me go up he's saying look i don't think you're a psychopath but maybe you are there's a pride and you go up trying to go down both sides of it there's uh an incentive i'm trying to save you i'm trying to give you this opportunity to look and then he does a fear down i'm sorry i fear up by saying look maybe you're like this other guy that i in interrogated who's a scumbag maybe you're not a good person then he lowers his voice and goes into that futility piece and it just quietly sneaks into this guy's operating system and then he does a presumptive question where are we going to find her body game over beautiful in to a fantastically orchestrated interrogation we need this guy on the show chase what do you get this uh is a technique from a few interrogation manuals depending on where you look but you're offering an out but it's not defined to see if they're willing to grab it so i'm just going to hang something out see if they want to grab it or not typically innocent people won't want to grab that they'll want to leave the room uh and i want you to keep in mind as you're watching this none of us that are sitting here are immune to interrogation none of us there is no we we don't get some secret vaccine that makes us immune in the emotional state that williams is in right here all of us would be similarly uh susceptible or suggestible uh to a lot of those techniques they work on highly emotional people and and i want you to keep in mind william's brain is hearing less than half of what is being said less than half so when they say repetition is the key to interrogation that's not because you're repeating it to brainwash a person that's because you're repeating stuff they're not hearing at all in the first place uh so we asked this alternative uh question and i think it's being used here masterfully you can either look like x or y when people hear about this and depending on what course you take there's 10 categories for why people confess their social preservation justification minimization receiving benefits like a promise or a deal trust conscience evidence status desire to confess and finally force and there's maybe some other ways or you pull out a thesaurus and grab five or six more but that's a very common quote if i thought you were the type of person to do blank i would not have even come here at all the reason i'm here is to figure out why this happens so we can both get ahead of this and another common interrogation phrase i don't think you'll ever hear in an interrogation video is i think the reason that you did this is the same reason that i wanted to come in here and talk to you because i think you are a genuine person i think you did intend to do the right thing and that's why i came in here scott quit laughing so i like it where he's saying you're we're all going to run out of cards to play uh post a secondary alternative question is it a or b are you good or bad and when he says we're going to run our cards to play what are we going to do instantaneously he gets call me rust i need yeah that's pins down that's pins down when he says that i almost almost did this just yeah yeah he's done that was it call me please watch watch this video my the final thing i'll say here when you watch this back watch right after he says call me russ watch the interrogator's body language and the suspect's body language they instantaneously synchronize and the confession begins guys i always say all of this stuff works because of maslow's hierarchy of needs and what you do an effective interrogator bonds tightly and creates a new normal so this person is now trying to create a steam with the person who's interrogating him and this was masterful yeah yeah okay well this is this is the part where that long silence it was uh 26 seconds after he ends there and he's just sitting there looking at all that stuff and thinking he doesn't say a word doesn't say anything at this point i know we're all going it's like that's the that's the long football run at that point we're all going yeah yeah go because he knows he's got to keep it zipped and so he does right then just put and the pressure builds on williams and it builds and builds and builds and you can feel it in there and you can see it on that's what that's the exciting part about it and so i'll talk about part of his body language stuff as well he's sitting way back in that chair and then he comes as he's as he's um oh and as he's gripping himself this is the highest his arms have been at this point this is the highest they've been and he's again like greg said it's that bow constrictor thing where he's squeezing himself and it's getting hard to breathe but he's really really still at this point that that's when if you'll take a look there at their body language as well this is where the the boxing in comes comes to an end because smith hasn't boxed in he's got a boxed in from from talking to him he's got him boxed in from physically being there with him this is the closest they've been the whole time and this is usually where if it doesn't go if he hadn't gotten it there what he would have done was reached over and touched him on the leg and said hey man that's not uh we all make a mistake he would have gone down that road you know he's close enough to reach out and touch him that's the key right there touch them on the leg or touch them on the arm depending on the relationship you've got going at that point um but yeah that that's right you guys have covered a lot of this um but this is like a classic uh confrontational pose and then when he does say it's over like that then you go was that too soon at that point oh dunk number two yeah exactly like whoops and he's like and that's why he keeps talking but he his voice is the only time his voice changes it's not a whole lot uh smith's voice but it starts that little thing a little bit of like hey man it goes down a little bit lower the tone goes lower it's not as loud it's a little bit softer and he starts saying you know hey man that's that when he gets into that and then when he says what are we going to do that's when that silence starts because he's and that's he's just going okay what are you going to do and that's when we see smith running down the dang running down the field we're hollering for him because that's what that's when the decision is going to be made am i am i giving up or not am i going to give up or not so that's when he's bobbing and weaving through there and we see him doing this but we're all hollering for him um yeah that's you guys got most of it there so mark what do you got yeah lovely so uh so remember right at the start i was saying about there's this power play going on and just think about williams as he walked in he's cast your mind back to that to that character who walked in and now who have we got and and how quickly that happened i think we're at like three and a half hours here maybe maybe maybe a little bit more maybe a little bit less but maybe three and a half hours we've been going back to not our show but yeah that we may be we may be i don't know you tell me but uh but in terms of the interview here the interrogation it's about three and a half hours down the line and and we talked about okay this uh the dc here is going to build this idea of futility well he builds it to the point where he can be totally overt about that and he says you know there is only one option now what better sentence describes futility you know there is only one option yeah and and then but he's not finished because he's got a nice little card up his sleeve there where he plays bernardo so for anybody who doesn't know bernardo is a legendary serial killer um in canada actually just from up the road in scarborough not not far off trenton okay and and he you know the ds here kind of assigns some kind of knowledge to barnard everybody knows bernardo but he kind of ascribes some kind of connection with him as well so there is that moment of hey if if you want to join if we want to join together and be like a barnardo you can we can do that because like i've done a barnardo before so if you want to go down bernardo i'm good let's let's do that if you want to go down another route of not being that character hey i'm good for that as well i'm with you all the way but ultimately he goes but regardless of where it's going this is over now again just hits the futility there again we get a lot of size from uh williams a lot of suspended breathing as well so i don't think his breathing quite knows what to do at this point i don't think his mind quite knows where to go on this um and so and so we get that silence and we get hey what what are we gonna do and he's got nothing he's got nothing which again causes us to understand that he's now open to any offer any offer he's like now if he'd have gone down the route of what do i want to do um i want a lawyer now that would be a whole different that'd be a whole different thing but he hasn't even got that so he can lay down the idea of look where where are the bodies it leads into let's get a map you know we're going to walk out we're going to walk around you're going to point to it on the map there's that you can watch more of this yourselves and see where this leads but ultimately what we're saying here is it it's at this point where it is over for him because he's been boxed in the lid is down it's futile and he's now not in control of this at all and what a brilliant image of who you had walking in smiling at the camera at the start and who you have right now all credibility there uh to ds jim smith uh i know you're in the area so be lovely to say hi at some point so uh you our our door uh our virtual door is open to you anytime and my my actual door uh is open to you we're big fans yeah yeah yeah that's what i got yeah too exciting yeah so yeah if you see this hit us up uh it's the behavior panel at gmail.com russell you know there's only one option what do you what do you what other option is there what's the option well i don't think you want the cold-blooded psychopath option i might be wrong okay because i don't get me wrong i've met guys who actually kind of enjoyed the notoriety got off on it got off on having that label bernardo being one of them i don't see that in you if i saw that you i wouldn't be back in your talking to you quite frankly but maybe i'm wrong maybe you got me fooled i don't know this is over and it can have a a bad ending where jessica's parents continue to wonder where her daughter's lying i don't know i mean obviously there's a huge search still underway and it'll continue it'll continue until her body's found that might even happen tonight for all i know once that happens then i don't know what other cards you would have to play what are we going to do wrestle what are we going to do hold your rest please okay what are we gonna do russ is jessica somewhere we can find her easily like is this something where i can make a call and tell somebody to go to a location and they're going to find her or is this something where we have to go and take a walk and if anybody's still watching this please subscribe to watch the single prayer my mother mom subscribe so yeah just hit that little red thing down there and subscribe to our channel all right it's a good one fellas all right i'll see you next time see you guys [Music] all right chase what do you got [Music] ah uh

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Keywords: russell williams, police interrogation, crime, true crime, russell williams confession, russell williams full interrogation, ontario provincial police, col russell williams, canadian forces, russell williams interview, colonel russell williams, col. russell williams, police interview, real crime, interview, forensic psychology, interrogation, interrogation confession, body language analysis, body language panel, the behavior panel, adrian humphreys, interrogations, jim smyth

Id: EOXIe-WXi0Y

Length: 155min 52sec (9352 seconds)

Published: Wed Apr 21 2021