Building The Self You Were Never Allowed To Have, featuring Jerry Wise

[Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] hey team healthy I am so pleased to introduce you to the guest we have here today you know that I like to scour articles and books and places on the internet to find people that are speaking into the topic of narcissism and we've come across a gentleman named Jerry West Jerry and I about the same age came out of the same wise I'm sorry Jer West like the basketball player well you just look like him you know I've actually been in the newspaper they put Jerry West under my picture the basketball player that's right okay well you know all right I've already started started by showing that I'm fallible so Jerry wise of course being Mr wise uh is with us Jerry you're all the way from the uh the golden state of Indiana where I'm kind of guessing it's a little on the chili side up there Jerry and I have been talking before we came online and you have quite a background uh you've got pastoral Ministries and then you also have done marriage and family therapy and working with addicts but you also have a strong musical background where you've uh sung backup for some well-known people and you're just kind of a jack of all trades and I'm guessing good at all of them so you have a wealth of information to draw upon and Jerry Works in uh in dealing with family systems and uh and then also in in helping individuals work through some of the strains that come um by virtue of being with with narcissistic individuals and so Jerry and I are going to be talking today about a topic and I I love this topic Jerry building the self you were never allowed to have now you actually have a course on that don't you that's on the internet tell tell me about just how you came up with that notion and why you felt the need to speak into that topic in the first place well and Les it's so good to talk with you and and we are so like in so many ways agewise and who knows what else yeah yeah and it's nice a couple of handsome fellas and and get you though you have a little bit more hair than I have though that's I'm jealous yeah the um with the uh coming up with that topic of building the self you're never allowed to have we we grow especially if you have a narcissistic parents or a parent or narcissistic siblings or you know and I call a family that has one narcissistic parent a narcissistic family because the Dynamics are going to be narcissistic even is the more negative person tends to dominate exactly and that's where the power is going to kind of be and so it doesn't mean everybody's a narcissist but everybody's going to be affected by this Dynamic and so if we grow up in an environment like that then there's going to be a lot of self switches that are turned off and they are going to be controlling and critical and and negative and and all kinds of things are happening there as well as an unhealthy balance of closeness and distance and an unhealthy balance of separating feelings and thoughts and all those kinds of things and so we then when we come to well who am I what is myself I don't know and then I start into recovery starting wanting to heal how do I get that back and how do I change those switches and that programming so that I can truly be me okay to be a self you know not not just a reactive person to my the narcissistic family but because that's the narcissistic family there's the reactivity to the narcissistic family but how do I do the middle the 90 degree where I'm balanced I'm me I'm no longer uh I'm no longer I am detached in a healthy way from that narcissistic family okay now as you're speaking two thoughts come to mind sure um one is uh I've spoken with individuals so much about uh one of the primary patterns of the narcissist and that is they want to empty you of you and they want to fill you with themselves that's that's the first thought and that's what I'm hearing you talking about the second thought and this is a thought of hopefulness um you didn't actually say the words but the implication is on the inside of you who's been on the receiving end of this narcissistic um emptying there's still a healthy person in there and uh you may have been that that person may have been trampled uh that person may have been pushed off to the side but we can go back and ReDiscover that person find out who that person is and then build on it and allow it to emerge and so there's an optimism that I'm hearing in what you're talking about when we say we can rebuild the implication is there's something in there that's already there and so so many people forget that because it's like they negative messages no different than if I have the flu if I'm sick that doesn't mean I've lost the healthy Jerry the healthy Jerry isn't functioning well as I heal I I start to be the healthy Jerry again but the flu or the cold or the infection doesn't negate a healthy me it it may shut off switches it may get in the way it but now I I want so we have that natural I mean that's how we were supposed to develop in the first place that was our natural development that we were supposed to do and that got way laid that got off track whether we're talking about inside families or organizations and Beyond one of the things that I think is necessary as we engage with one another is not to dictate what somebody else is supposed to think and be but to draw out of other individuals their significance and and help them find their skill set what is the narcissist endgame what what's going on inside of them that causes them to lose track if they ever had it of that kind of thought well and I would even say not only narcissists but many other parents with different difficulties whether it be addictions and that's kind of been a past of mine to help people with those addictions or narcissists or that again they as you had mentioned they want to empty you and they want to they want to empty you of you and fill you with them I talk about it just a little differently but it's same I think it's the same Dynamic how do you put it they need to borrow self from you and you need to loan self to them and so we grow up loaning self to everyone just as codependence loan self you know and there it's a loaning and borrowing of self and so we want to grow and heal to a place and begin to learn that wait a minute I need to stop loaning self here and there are lots of ways that we loan self and lots of ways they borrow self they want you to become responsible for keeping them propped up now they wouldn't see that in that that's a great Insight by the way no no they wouldn't see that at but it's not we talk about narcissistic Supply that's exactly what what is it supplying them with a self that's what they don't they don't have that unfortunately and so you're my Supply which provides a pseudo self for me and then I want to loan you me to you so that you will have a pseudo self of me and and once we begin to learn those Dynamics we then know how to navigate differently and that's what I try to teach and we can learn to navigate that differently you there there's a there's such a a contradiction that's going on when the narcissist says I need to fill myself with you the implication there being I'm pretty empty on the inside uh but then I'm going to turn around and say but I need you to be filled with me in other words my emptiness it's like wait a minute that math doesn't quite compute it doesn't compute you're right and and they and that the we we understand it I think a little better when we talk about the narcissistic Supply I need you to be a pseudo I need you so I can have a pseudo me okay pseudo me not a real me false and to keep that going you must then I'm going to loan you and you're going to borrow from me my negativity my trauma my all the things I'm going to give you and then you will have a traumatized pseudo self that's negative and filled with all these things that I've taught you which you're gonna take off into adulthood so in other words what I have to offer you is my internal chaos exactly I mean you so succinctly U described that I really like the way that you clarify that I I want to take a look at some patterns that that tend toh to emerge with that individual who is is on the receiving end of all of this uh one of the first things that that comes to my mind is the pattern of suppression uh the person who is being filled by that narcissistic person when they finally say well here's who I am this is me by the way I have one of my courses it's called This is Me and it's like going ahead and claiming that but the pattern is no you're not who you are you're you are who I say you are so you have to suppress all of that uh what happens when a person goes into that longstanding I mean we're talking about years and Decades of suppressing and hiding and covering up that real self let let's talk about how that plays out well and and certainly it does play out because we internal I the emotional process in the family so what's happening in there with self and emotions we internalize that and then take it all with us to adulthood and then we have all these problems I end up taking over the voice of the narcissist and going you're bad Jerry you're what's wrong with you whatever we experienced as kids we're going to internalize it take it over and use it as a as a bat over our head like you say the switch to your own good thinking has been turned off and switch to those negatives is turned on turn and and dialed up to 10 miserable and then we're miserable and then when I think about those patterns then I start to look at since it's become so systemic it ju it just feels so natural to us and it feels so normal even though we don't like it it still feels normal to us I call that a malignant normaly The Narcissist passes on that malignant normaly just like you've met with trauma people it's normal for that I didn't say they like it or want to keep it going but it is that's their Norm that's their Norm right that's but it's a malignant normaly and so then I start looking at okay we we need to make that not be your malignant normaly let me ask you about your normaly and here are some questions I would use to help them if you live differently if you gave up that normaly shame or guilt let's say you give those up entirely I want you to think about what would be the downsides of doing that I know what the upsides are you'd feel great everybody be happy but obviously you haven't bought into the upsides enough to let that go so there's down sides that's keeping it in place okay yeah if I if I let go of my guilt and shame which I learned from my narcissistic parent if I let go of that what would be a downside but responses have you heard from individuals when you ask that kind of question well first of all they go oh I'm ready to give it up and I go no you're not because if you were you'd give it up it wouldn't be there and that's okay it's not I'm not shaming them I I've gone through all this I've done all this you know they they're not they haven't done anything I have hav done or thought or felt or and so and the response is I go let's talk about the downsides and then they start working on that and they go okay I just imagined if I didn't have the shame or guilt with my narcissistic parent I wouldn't have any relationship with them at all yeah everything would be turned upside down everything would be turned upside down you also would be making the parent unhappy with you too if they couldn't use those systems feelings of guilt and shame to keep you in your emotional location in the family let me give you an illustration J Jerry I talked to a guy and he was in his early 50s okay so it's not like he was a spring chicken and he had done some things that um lifestyle wise in terms of how he managed certain priorities and all we're not talking about anything controversial but he he just decided he was going to manage his um his schedule and um you know priorities a little bit differently and he was explaining this to his elderly father and as he was talking about how he was going to go about doing things in a new kind of way and here he's sitting in my office he's shaking his head it's like I felt like an 8-year-old kid the father said I thought I brought you up better than that he says and I'm talking about simple stuff about you know how I was GNA spend my days or prioritize my money and things like that I thought I brought you up better than that and and the implication is you can't be you uh you're you're 52 years old and and you cannot change your spot in the family the way you function so don't be telling about new things you're going to be doing yeah because that makes all the rest of us have to shift oh yeah and we don't want to shift so you get back in line yeah so uh so what happens if a person like my fella decides well I don't know that I want to get back in line I would say first of all you need to understand how change happens in an emotional system if you change there's going to be three stages of resistance okay uh what are you doing why are you doing this number two stop doing this and number three stop or else okay first of all when they ask that first question what are you doing they're not looking for the right answer anyway they are not they're not asking the question for information they know what the answer they're not asking you that to get an answer yeah right if you can maintain a new self going through all three of those it begins to change the system because now they have to adjust to you versus them trying to get you to change you need to stop you need to stop doing this you and if I just keep staying in place they're gonna have to sh I asked the question a few minutes ago what kind of patterns I mentioned you lot do a lot of suppression another pattern then that tends to come along when you're in this Dynamic is you become defensive oh yeah but then to your point when someone is saying what are you doing it's like okay that's an invitation for me to become defensive and what if I decide to say well what I'm doing is exactly what I did and it made sense to me no defense that would feel different wouldn't it much different like you say then it it requires the system to change because you're not going to be the same and I might say to the parent or to the narcissist nist or whoever depends on who they are and again a malignant narcissist is never going to react well to anything so I'm not talking always only about them there's some narcissists that have more interaction yeah right so if they say well you know I I don't understand what you're doing I might say you know I understand it must be difficult for me to share with you how I'm making some different changes in what I'm going to be doing I understand that then what would they say Les what would they say back to me the narcissist it's like well I don't know where you came up with an idea like that or that's the first thing that comes to my mind right well because I'm not sure you would be coming up with that idea yeah I came with the idea I'm self differentiating I'm self differentiating being different rather than being reactive which which confuses The Narcissist because they're all to confusion is better than reactivity okay I love itus much better you know so I don't mind if they're confused if you're the person who's going through the program that you talk about and you're saying you know I'm just going to go ahead and claim myself there's just a lot of differentness that you have to get used to and the first is I'm not in the Pro I'm in I'm not in the uh the U mode of having to explain myself overly so or defend or sell the legitimacy of me here I am folks if you can go along with me that would be wonderful and if not well I guess you got some work to do then don't you or or but then I you got some work to do that's a little reactive it's a little reactive okay I might say though though I've said that before I've said that as well and that because it's still true I mean you're right in what you're saying but that's probably going to hit them a little funny I might say you know I'm not sure I would expect you to understand because this is what I'm doing for me yeah unlike those last 52 years unlike those last 52 years EXA exactly yeah and so I wouldn't you don't and it's and you know it's okay if you don't understand it's okay what are we have for lunch I got you now Jerry now one of the things uh that would be required for a person to become that embolden and confident is that they're they're they're going to need to uh to learn how to come to terms with some of the unfinished emotion on the inside of them like you mentioned that fear and the shame because they're not going to have a good meeting of the minds with that narcissist or the anger that's been stored up and suppressed through the years and so so that almost needs to be managed um uh in a whole separate kind of way as opposed to in personally would you say that that that's preparing for the work of self differentiation okay that's the preparation for that because you're right if I'm you know but then I also have this simple view which I think is very important calmness is everything I have a video called calmness is everything because if you can manage your calmness you can manage you if you can't manage your calmness you're going to be reactive over and over and over again which only keeps you in the same position and the same family Dynamics um I I have a term that's very parallel with what you say I I call it calm firmness oh absolutely and now by the way Jer confidence calm firmness calm it it may be that U you know six months down the road you'll hear me say on a video calmness is everything that's what I've said for all this time and uh rather than saying well you know my friend Jerry wise told me that so you know I might have to steal that one from you you can use calm calm firmness too right firmness okay fair all right that's and so I then want to look at reactivity wrecks recovery more than anything I think and so I've got to get at reactivity and and that's so important and that's why the program we talk a lot about that well there's there's a and I go back and say there's a message of um affirmation and that is U The Narcissist didn't necessarily want you to know this but there's a very decent and capable and reliable and dignified person sitting on the inside of you waiting to be rediscovered how do you help people learn to buy into that all over again when in fact they've been given so many messages to the contrary then I would tell them let me give you some examples of fake or false feelings okay shame and guilt may be fake or false it doesn't mean you're not feeling it I please don't I I believe in feelings and I wouldn't but what I'm saying is true shame is when I've done something to hurt someone that's true shame if my parent says you're stupid and I feel shame Is that real shame or system shame that's relationship shame that's it's you're supposed to feel that to stay in place that's why you feel that so that's the system that's the system so I want to help you with the system and then you prove to me why you should be feeling shame when they're calling you a Coca-Cola I'll use that ex that's what I use in my they're saying Jerry you are a Coca-Cola oh I feel so much shame why are you feeling so much shame when they call you a Coca-Cola if they call you stupid are you stupid really I mean are you I mean I want to know if that's what I know that's their belief or I'm not even sure it's their belief it's what they want to say to control you it may not even be they may think you're too smart and then they're G to call you stupid to balance that so it's not even it's a game and we look at the game oh I love it now you mentioned the whole notion of control what I have a history of uh having given a lot of anger workshops and I would talk about standing up in your truth and calm confidence and assertiveness things like that one of the biggest complaints that I would receive from these individuals that I would be talking that stuff with is they would come back let's say the next week and say well I tried all that assertiveness stuff and I tried all of that standing up for myself and it just didn't work and typically when I inquire about that I find that what they mean is the other person didn't agree with me didn't change and didn't change uh and it's like well is that required for your standing up for yourself Well I this Dr Carter say what I thought that's I thought that's why we were doing all this make these other people different to make these other people be different and to change them yeah no no and mine is and that's one of the Dynamics that a narcissistic family or narcissist will do is they will train you to be other folks focused not self-focused and so your clients came back and they were talking about other Focus no no that's not what we're no that's not what we were doing so even if the uh the system itself remains as it is and you say well I think what I'm going to do is opt out and I'm I'm going in a different direction I'd love for you to join me but if they say no we're going to stay over here in our archaic way of thinking now you have to deal with reality reality number one is I can't control that that I can't control that and and that's one of the first things I try to help people accept or get to understand better and I also will look at what are the downsides of you accepting that they can't change or won't what's the downsides because that's holding you into wanting to change them yeah you know and and good luck trying to change them I spent years and why do you think I got a degree in marriage and family therapy I wanted to fix my family yeah yeah I thought if I just got more smarts or something I could do that well there there's a a very powerful theme in everything you're saying here today and that is um really there's pretty much one person in this world that I can do something about I'm responsible for me I'd like that my sense of responsibility would spill over and help you be a better person too that would certainly be nice but you being you systemically will create others to be better them or just by by default yeah either that if they can't adjust then I can't engage with them right and and even and that's and I think that's so important to recognize you'll do even when and I know you've had some I don't know if I should talk about Christian background or the my spirituality is important to me yeah yeah but and and many people who listen have that and that I think about um so many people are always trying to help me help them to evangelize better and I'm going let me tell you the best evangelism I got one word go ahead love love yourself and let God love you everything else will flow from there I gotta you don't have to go out and just keep because so many people go out and try to change other people because they're not changed and you know we can take that same thinking and apply it to whether it's religious Focus or political Focus or how we're supposed to run things at the business right absolutely yeah and so self-focus I didn't say self- narcissism said self-focus is what we lose in dysfunctional families yeah we do other focus and and we'll ask why are they like that and I'm going why are you asking that question why are they like that what does matter they are like that now maybe they'll get help maybe they won't I don't know why don't we ask what do you do when they're like that that's a whole different a whole different mindset isn't it yeah whole different perspective yeah so uh in essence it's a matter of being able to see that narcissistic system for what it's worth and then see the role that was ascribed to you you probably decades ago and then you asked the question is this a role that I would like to continue or is this a role that I'd like to opt out of and I'll shift gears and go back to be that person that is inside much healthier well and what's scary so many times is but if I let go of those roles and if I let go of that emotional process that's in me if I let go of that what will be left and I go that's exactly where you need to be to ask that question it's a great question isn't it because you're right on the precipice of being you right once you say I'm not gonna do this and if I let all that go now we have a chance to and believe it or not I don't even have the answer for that you do I I've had times and I know we're going to need to wrap here pretty soon here Jerry but I've had times where I'll ask people a similar type of question like um let's say in this situation you used to be this way uh what do you think would be the wiser way to go instead and that there are times when I would just get that blank it's like nobody's ever asked me that before right I I don't know what would you you know what would you that means we just need to slow down and let you ponder that then and let you ponder that that's very important and that I think it also is the way to uh yeah you're asking self questions and self focus questions and in my program I even talk about here are other focused questions here are self-focused questions to try to help people change their language about the questions they're asking because other focused questions are often not going to I mean if they say well is my mother or father a narcissist well we I mean here's the DSM I mean you can here the criteria what do you think here's the criteria what do you think but it's still down to even if we nail that down now what are you gonna do okay you know I mean maybe we'll nail it down that they're a martian now what are we gonna do not not the diagnoses or I get what you're saying yeah right but okay so we have these good words from Jerry the wise not from the west but the wise and uh Jerry you you you're you're first of all I love your enthusiasm for the topic and I can only imagine that people that work with you just walk away thinking gosh it's so nice to have somebody speak into uh myself in this uh affirming kind of way uh so I guess it's my way of saying hey way to go man I love the focus that you have okay so now we're going to have some links below the the podcast here so that people can figure out how to get in touch with you you also have a YouTube presence and Instagram and other kind of things we'll make sure that we get um get all that out for for folks to know that wonderful yeah hey so we're talking about building the self you were never allowed to have not the self that you cannot be because it's in there right and uh it's it's such a of Hope and optimism so thanks so much for what you're doing brother hey you're very welcome and the two things are becoming that I focus on are becoming the self that you were never allowed to have and getting the family of origin unhealthy family of origin out of you okay those are the two Focus that I that I do and I mean it's things I want that's what I want for me all we're all a work in progress aren't we and I I'm I'm going to guess that you're like me I hope that on the last day of my life I'm still learning something absolutely there we go hey Jerry wise thank you so much for being with us here today and this is not going to be the last time you're going to be on our broadcast with us okay can you work with me on that one absolutely it's beeny to talk with you and to those who watch this video but certainly you've been a delight to talk with okay thanks so much team healthy uh we've got Jerry wise here I hope that you're able to look him up and all of the good information that goes with it I will see you next time and I I hope that you have a good rest of the week and I hope that you are able to find your sense of peace

Channel: Surviving Narcissism

Views: 50,514

Keywords: Self esteem, narcissism in relationships, gaslighting, anger, passive aggressive, Jerry Wise, Psychology

Id: PHMWXxtV6Sg

Length: 34min 41sec (2081 seconds)

Published: Tue Feb 06 2024