"Nobody Will F*ck With You!" - NEVER Argue Or Fight With A Narcissist, DO THIS Instead | Dr. Ramani

if we're in a manipulative toxic or narcissistic relationship and we want to protect ourselves stand off for ourselves and gain what you call effed up resilience what can we say and do to put them in their place one of the tactics I talk about in my new book and something I've talked about even long before this book is this idea of not going deep okay and deep stands for defend engage explain and personalize and I tell people don't go deep don't defend don't engage don't explain don't personalize the best thing you can do is not get into it with them right you just don't play and when you don't play you're not going to get pulled into their Madness really and because you can't win at it and it's hard though you and I have talked about this on your show before you I remember so well what you said because it's stuck with me which is this idea of you when I said don't defend you're like but what if you know you're in the right like I don't like the idea of not saying something it goes against the grain of who I am but I thought you raised a really important point which is in some people's nature is that they can't not defend like if they really believe something's right they're going to take the fight to which I say then you need to understand what you're getting into so if you don't understand what narcissism is you don't understand what this is going to look like you don't understand gaslighting or any of that you're going to get eaten alive but if you know that's what's coming at you right it's almost like you understand the Weaponry that's going to be headed towards you you can then create in essence the defense but it's the not defending is something very active you can do because they're accusing you of something that's wrong that's the core of gaslighting gaslighting is saying you there's something wrong with you you have um you must have some sort of memory problem or some other psychiatric issue you need help the mistake would be I don't have those things I saw a therapist they said there's nothing wrong with me they're like well of course the and then you get this back and forth right when they say something something like that honestly the cleaner play is okay you know you just sort of play into their Madness and say sure got it great and that's the not defending and and the other mistake alongside that people make is they explain themselves like listen if you hear my point of view this will make sense to you no it won't they're not listening I can't explain this to survivors enough they're not listening so when you try to explain something like I want them to understand my point of view you they don't care they want to dominate you they don't want to understand you there's a difference right domination is just boom understanding is collaborative like if a person says I really want to understand your point of view then explain but they don't and when you start explaining thinking that maybe they'll behave differently another mistake the explaining I think one should never do I don't think it's ever a good idea the defending I understand some people say I feel like I'm a dmat if I don't defend myself the explaining is I just think it's off the table and I think that once you know what you're dealing with it's to shut the explain off and all of this and maybe the we almost need to start with the don't Engage The don't engage is you if you know person's ever been through a deposition they kind of know what I'm talking about you don't get give long mandering answers you literally answer the questions yes no or as briefly as possible that's what you'll always be instructed to do by an attorney keep it tight silence is almost your friend in some ways just like keeping it tight because really when you're being deposed by opposing counsel they're trying to trip you up right that's that's the bottom line and if you can view it that way the narcissistic person in essence is trying to trip you up so less is more and the not engaging is basically that you don't initiate new conversations with them you don't talk about yourself you don't share anything about yourself so it really becomes I always say said to someone once I said having any form of relationship ship with a narcissist is like forever having to listen to an annoying podcast because they're not listening to you obviously a podcast you're listening to they're not listening to you and there's just yam or Yammer yam if you ever listen to pod podcast you're like what is this person like this is I cannot get this five minutes back right so that's what it is they're going to just talk about what they want to talk about in some whatever strange way they want to talk about it and you're just listening and in fact and I'll give this technique after I get to the last the P the don't personalize of ways to cope with it because the last p is don't personalize and people say how can I not personalize this feels personal they would be doing this to anyone in your position this isn't about you it's not you it's really anyone who's in the unfortunate position of having to work with listen to be in a relationship with being a family with this person would be going through what you're going through they're not targeting you as a human being they don't know you well enough to Target you at this point they just want what they want but are they not part partly uh targeting temperament and characteristics they want to draw you into a position of weakness right so one of the most classic narcissistic plays is so they say something to you and you're like no no no no no you didn't hear that right let me explain my part you're like La explain explain explain explain and then they're like yeah no you never said that you're like how can you tell me I never said that I'm getting my phone and you're like you know you're just spinning okay but they're calm they're like this like yeah I don't have any recollection but you you seem a little crazy bit right now like what's what's this and you're like I'm not crazy you're making great crazy The Narcissist just so happy when that's happening because they look calm cool collected you look insane okay and that really reinforces that rhetoric of they're great you're not they're calm and well put together you're disregulated and out of your mind they love that jux depos the problem with that is that when it keeps happening the person who's like losing themselves and trying to explain actually does start to believe that they're crazy because they're like this person makes me crazy and I'm like you know you're just you're you're you're engaging with someone you shouldn't be engaging with that's really the issue so that's another thing to keep in mind but so they would be doing this to anyone but the personalization is we think this is specifically they're out to get us they're really not they just want their they want their power they want their supply right when they're doing this when they're trying to draw someone into conflict when they're gaslighting when they're lying all these things you know to be true you want to shut it down right but there's no point in sharing with them I always tell people they're showing you who they are old school Maya Angelou believe them okay believe them through their actions this is what you're dealing with and so when people get really good at this in fact you know you and I have a common friend in Mel Robbins right and I was just on Mel's podcast talking about this and was in the curriculum of my healing program just this last month I talk about this idea of Soul distancing which is when you're with them and they're trying to draw you out and you're giving your simple not cold like yeah mhm yep nope got that sure I hear that like you're giving like you're you're engaged you're listening to them but they may ask you how was your day You've Won when you can say things like yeah know a little bit of this a little bit of that not not a lot was going on you're definitely not going to tell them how you got into it with your boss or you were hurt by a colleague or you learn that your friend is sick or you you're frustrated with your mother you're or or even that you got an award at work you're not telling them any of that because they're either going to be not supportive blame you Gaslight you or ignore you so you're not you're not when they ask you those questions like how's your day like yeah you know a day a little bit of this a little bit of that so you've answered the question but they're not your go-to with that stuff anymore that right there can turn some of the volume down the problem is we all keep engaging with them like there's a point to it and there's really really not I always view them as the way they've turned us into objects turn that right back at them okay so if I have to interact with a narcissistic person because of work for family reasons for any other reasons I prepare myself to go into that situation I know what I'm dealing with I I I know I want to get out of there as quickly as I can right and whatever you know so I'll interact with them in a very very meager sort of a way if it's a work thing I'm going got to figure out what is it I need from this person and I'm going to cut to the Chase and get that thing thing whatever it is or give them what they need and no Small Talk we're done I'm out and so and think of all the time you save not being made to feel like you're out of your mind but this can this can work this can work in close relationships too is you're just not you're not taking their bait anymore that's what all of this looks like is that in those moments when they're going for you you ground I always tell people both feet on the ground it's going to help you it's like a literal thing you can draw into both feet on the ground you're very intentionally breathing you can do like four seven eight breathing four in seven hold eight exhale you're paying attention to your breath and if it's going on for a while and there isn't much you can do about it I often say to people take in your surroundings so if I was looking here I'd say there's a white plant in the corner and I'm describing these things to myself because is what's coming out of their mouth and that way I'm not engaging with them but any and it also helps you kind of ground and S sort of calm your nervous system down at those times but it will take a toll on you and I always tell people to engage again get into this in the book this what I call the preparing and the releasing the narcissistic interaction when you know you're going to have to deal with a toxic mother when you know you're going to have to talk to the toxic co-parent whatever it may be the the narcissistic colleague the meeting with all of them you prepare it might even only be five minutes but give yourself a minute alone it might be in a bathroom stall might be in your car but you breathe in you don't go in there unprepared you wouldn't do anything else you pack a suitcase for a trip it's almost like packing a suitcase right and you breathe and you're like okay I'm I'm not going to go deep I am not going to engage I'm very clear what I'm hoping for here you have your meeting they're going to do something that's problematic I'm sure and when it's done don't think you can just jump into your day give yourself a few minutes for release if was a particularly to toxic encounter go do what you need to do to bring your nervous system back to Baseline that might be a nap it could be a shower it could be a walk it could be a run it could be sitting under a tree walking your dog talking to a friend calling your shrink painting a picture whatever is your thing build that into the back end so if you know you have a day of meetings and you have any control over your schedule you know 2 o'clock is the toxic meeting don't book a three book a four and say between three and four whatever and you might be ready maybe the meeting isn't that B like great I just have an hour in my day to do other stuff but I think we don't recognize how much this takes a toll on us and since we can't always get out of these relationships it's an opportunity for us to take care of ourselves despite not being able to walk away from all these relationships that was a very long answer to your question though no that was genius and even like the timing of everything is giving yourself Grace understanding who you're about to be with and then knowing what that knock on effect is going to be I think it's super strong instead of just then diving into something and then ignoring the emotion or the thing that you've just been through how would you even do that if it was someone you were living living with it gets harder there right and I think that the challenge there the game changes a bit because people stay in narcissistic relationships for a variety of reasons in the intimate relationship sphere there's reasons the Practical the cultural children um fear uh love identity identity I'm a spouse I'm part of a family all of those things right but hope some people still have not fully gotten to radical acceptance they think maybe maybe maybe but let's even take away factors like hope and even love out of there but the stuff you're talking about all the stuff we just practical stuff not everyone can go and I think that that's very important for people to understand that doesn't mean All Is Lost you can still you can still pull back a little because because if you go with the don't defend don't engage don't explain don't personalize sadly yeah your topics are the weather who got nominated for what award they're building a new movie theater in the town they're repaving the street that filler conversation most of what it is it's it's yeah well they say new sports weather that's about all you can talk about and even these days you can't talk about the news but what a lot of survivors have said to me is they're like when I really related to them that way and they said I don't like this I said what part of it don't you like and they said that's not a relationship I said this has never been a relationship you've been telling yourself something to make it feel like a relationship but this is a person who's been disrespecting you for years or decades we're just being honest about it now and you're not and engaging with them is not good for you so this is a way to disengage but that recognition that really is weather it is the fence across the street it is is the squirrel in the backyard that that's all you got is a lot of grief comes out of that and the reality of it because people will say yeah once I sort of switch the tactic to over there we're not doing as much but I have to say Lisa someone in my healing program said this and it struck me so hard had said how her husband so she was doing all this and her husband said I'm not interested in being in a civil relationship that fool almost cursed that fool said that out loud I was like are you he literally like when she had him in position when she did all the things she didn't defend she didn't engage she didn't explain she didn't personalize and he's like I'm not interested in this like he's basically saying I only want a relationship where I can degrade and humiliate and and crush you like a bug what this does you strangely you would think like going at someone like you you need to stop this and this is what you did and blah like we think that's what holding a person's feet to the fire is in a narcissistic relationship it's pulling away all the supply and seeing what they do and in this case it's not getting into it with them but the thing you've got to remember is if you disengage from a narcissistic person this much there's a possibility they'll leave and for folks with abandonment fears for folks with fear of a their of a relationship ending of a divorce all those things that makes them nervous and I understand that that's the risk of this if you disengage enough not always but in some cases the narcissistic person may say this is this I'm done this is not working for me anymore and that can really build up that sense of self-doubt well this happened because I disengage so I sometimes tell people again I call this in the book I call it go into the Tiger's cage I say go into the Tiger's cage and they said what do you mean by that I said imagine a cage and in that it's a big cage and in the cage is a cat and you're like is that a cat or is that a tiger right if it's a cat then it's this little sweet kitty and you're going to go pet it and it's going to be cute and you're going to snuggle with it and that's that if it's a Tiger It's going to tear you apart so I tell clients you're not sure of this yet are you go in there try it go tell them tell them something you need ask for something you need tell them you want to talk about something and tell tell me how that works out for you because if it's a tiger if this is indeed a narcissistic person they're going to have a go at you if this is a actually a person who is not narcissistic you guys might have just had a rough go but you actually do Express a need or want to talk to them and they they're open to it might just be a cat but you're only going to know if you go in the cage and so instead of I would never tell a client this person is a narcissistic don't even try I'd say you need to try this and keep going in that cage until you're sure you're going to get torn apart in the process but that might be the only way you are sure so some people will keep going in the cage and then Lisa in almost all of these relationships there's a penny drop moment there is a moment where you can never unsee it again and it could be anything it could be big things like you find them in bed with your sister it could be tiny things like you ask them to I don't know you you ask them to do the tiniest little favor for your child and they they they they they still wouldn't do it like it was the littlest thing and it would have made all the difference to someone that mattered and they wouldn't do it so again it could be anything but there's a moment and when that moment comes and sometimes that moment comes because you keep going in the Tiger's cage because something that happens in these relationships is that if you don't push the system like if you keep going along if you keep justifying you can trick yourself into thinking that this is a healthy relationship even though you're feeling sick inside but once you do things like don't play their ground game game anymore keep going in the Tiger's cage make a need known because that's what people do like they don't make their needs known it's a classic characteristic of trauma bonding they don't share what they need with the narcissist because they know what's going to come so you know how they can avoid seeing what's going to come never sharing a need and so they never share their needs and people in these relationships get really good at doing everything for themselves and doing everything that the narcissistic person wants right but when they start going into the Tiger's cage and test out the water seeing what this is seeing what's really behind the bars of that cage they might need to see that a few times and once they see it a few times they'll say oh boy this is not healthy now if they decide to stay the work can can they do these things sure I mean the conversations are much more impoverished um you I tell people that you might have to find a way to skate between the good days like the bad days are the bad days but every so often there might be a fun dinner or a silly family game night and you you view that as the break in the weather that it is you know it's like living in a place that's always cold and stormy and every so often there's a sunny day and everyone goes out and sits outside and takes pictures but you know the next day it's going to rain again it's a tough way to live oh God yeah the the analogy in your book really hit me when I read that because it's such a strong way of thinking about it like if you can take that person that maybe they did the one nice thing that you're holding on to that makes them seem somewhat human and you turn it into the analogy of the cat it made me realize like oh he didn't bite my head off and I'm still alive today it's like well you know it's like every time you walk into the cage you're risking it and eventually you know sadly sometimes people are risking their lives and so thinking about that analogy really hit me well and then your your breakdown of like well if you keep going into that cage what that long-term effect is going to be um and um did you uh was it s Freedom Roy in Vegas those um uh lion taming yes they're like Lion taming and they had all these lions and they had all these tigers and they were known and then one day on stage a tiger decides to mul him that's right that's what tigers do that's what made me think CU like you you have a a notion or a thing oh no but they care about me I've brought them up I've been with them for a long time X Y and Z but you can't change you know a tiger's Stripes Sword whatever the phrase well you know I mean the parable I use in the book is the Scorpion and the SW you know is thatal myth which is there's a scorpion on the bank of a river scorpion wants to get to the other side of the river but needs another creature to take it across and everybody the turtles the frogs everyone's like we're not taking you fool you're going to sting us hell no but then the swan comes by and even the Ducks are saying no and the Scorpion says you know what I can see you're so elegant you're so beautiful you're so much smarter than all these other River creatures would you please take me AC cross and even the swan says like I don't know like how do I know it won't sting you and that scorpion said why would I sting you you're my way of getting to the other side you know and honestly like like I said you're you're smarter than all these other creatures anyhow the swan feeling that the Scorpion got her or got him because this boy Swan is a beautiful Swan the swans thinking that the Scorpion got him said sure come on you're right why would you bite me I'm taking you to the other side and they get to the other side of the river and they're having a nice little chat and it's time to jump off to the other bank and the scorpion stings the Swan and the swan in agony says why why did you do it and the Scorpion said I'm a scorpion it's what we do and I said in that vignette the damn scorpion has more insight than the narcissist because at least the Scorpion knows he's like that's what I do I sting like that's you know and I'm going to tell you what I need to do to get what I need to tell you to get what I need but I'm toting you and so that that piece of it is that at least the Scorpion would tell you that even the n The Narcissist wouldn't do that but they'll say whatever they need to say to get you to do what they want you to do and then they will sting you that's inevitable and no scorpion they scor you can't Scorpion's not a pet let me start off by saying this ladies there is no shame in aging having wrinkles or thin in skin but just like there's no shame in aging there's also no shame in wanting to do what you can to keep your skin healthy while also feeling and looking its best AKA confident and so that's why I have to share these products I'm loving from one skin because I've been using their moisturizer for over a month now and I'm absolutely loving it on skin is the world's first skin longevity company and their products are powered by os1 a peptide scientifically proven to switch off the Aging cells that cause lines wrinkles and thin skin and it's not just me guys one skin has over 4,000 F star reviews so get started today with 15% off using coupon code woi on skin.co that's 15% off on skin.co with code woi so seeing a narcist for who they are is the first key to them recognizing how you maneuver how they're going to in act with you so there's no surprise that you can poten defend but there is always but that's this is so much easier said than done right because you're in love with this person or this is your parent or this is your sibling or this is your friend of 30 years right in fact and don't underestimate this friendship piece people will say we've been through everything this is my college roommate or this was my friend in high school and we did we were in each other's weddings and I didn't know I couldn't understand I couldn't understand it and then I read about this narcissism stuff and it was my you know was they're one of their best friends and they that was its own loss again I say friend because it it's a thing it can really really hurt but because these people we have such Rich histories with them that when we finally really get the understanding of oh okay this is a pattern it's consistent you sketch it out like this is this is clearly what's happening it's not as simple as a maneuver out now it's grief I'm Lo really in essence you may not be physically losing them but it's that sense of I've lost the Hope I've kind of lost that sense of this could ever get better um I've lost what I've built this up to be in my head I've lost the narrative all of that gets lost once you see this clearly so you only have you have one of two choices right choice one is to live in the delusion and choice two is to see it clearly both choices carry pain that hit me hard so if both choices carry pain what would need to be true for you to seek the path that eases the pain long term I think that's going to be different for everyone Lisa and I think that that can shift over time for some people they might say our kids are small and I can't imagine 50% of the time not being with my four-year-old child so some people say have to find out figure out a way to gut this out for five years 10 years whatever so some people then and as the child gets older they'll say okay I this kid now the child's at an age where they can make decisions about where they want to live or some people wait until the day their kids turn 18 and like at least I'm not going to fight about that piece of this in court we might fight about everything else but not that so that situation can matter it's like th those things will change over time which pain is worse sometimes it's an accumulation once you see it you can't unsee it so all of a sudden the person's behavior is showing up in a context into like it's it's very clear what it is and you might find yourself getting disgusted by it and saying I can't do this anymore right because you're not if you're not if you're not practicing denial then you're and you're fully like allowing yourself or you have seen it and again you can't unsee it that just might accumulate you know a colleague of mine Dr Yan L she calls it breaking the shell you put enough stuff on something it's going to break so you get enough of this narcissistic stuff you're registering that way the Shelf will ultimately break and it does and then the person will say I can't I can't engage with this person as much anymore and it's not all or nothing Lisa either what with families this is easier to understand let's say someone is very aware now that their father and their brother are deeply narcissistic and that every interaction with these people are to is toxic and it negatively harmed their child childhood and all of that but embedded still in their family system as a mother they're fond of or cousins they're fond of or other extended family what may end up happening is the person might say I'm not coming home for some family dinner nonsense but I'm going to make efforts to maybe create a time that I carve out with my mother and my sister and we go on a vacation like people might do the workarounds or they'll show up to the family event but not stay with the family or they'll show up for only half of it they'll they'll they'll figure out what they need to do do to keep maintain some of the relationships or not others so that's what I'm saying is they they'll just sort of have the kind of superficial interaction while the more difficult people are around and have the deeper ones with the healthier ones but they'll just they'll be aware of what it is that they're dealing with if that makes sense in an intimate partnership it's harder it's harder because over time a lot of contempt can build up but if a person knows what they're dealing with a lot of times and the one of the key key factors to Healing is having social support and I'll tell folks whatever that looks like whether if you have a job it's it's and you have decent colleagues building up friendships there it might be if you have kids um and you're involved in the school building up friendships there but having ju this doesn't have to be 20 people one or two good supports who can be there who you can trust and not not that they're your shrinks but they're just people to do things with people to share things with who can hear things and mirror them back and you can support them and you they can support you you can be there for each other that sometimes gives people enough to get have the stamina to get through to a certain point meaning and purpose are huge in this is that if there's something that calls you that compels you whether it's work whether it's a creative Pursuit whether it's a spiritual draw whatever it is but that might be enough to fill those holes but what you can hear what I'm saying Lisa is there's grief here it's the people recognizing once they see that their relationship is indeed a very invalidating Hollow narcissistic relationship they're giving up on a love story and they're going to have to find that within themselves and their life doesn't go the way others do and it can be painful to watch other people's lives they're growing old with someone or they're somebody who cares for them and is attentive to them there can be a lot of grief in this process this healing process is not easy and I assume that's why they try to attack your meaning your purpose and then the people you surround yourself with um narcissists in a relationship because those are the things you have to hold on to in order to get through well I think it's not even that it's they don't think there's anything to get through the narcissistic person think they're trying to Target you because they know that having a friend around you having meaning and purpose in your life is what's going to give you the strength it's going to give you and power they don't want power right so if you have friends around you are saying you're so great we so believe in you they don't want those friends around because that's making you strong and that's taking that that teeter totter that seesaw and making it Balan they don't want that they always want their side up so they will isolate people from those kinds of relationships or they'll speak badly about them or devalue them so no they they don't want you to have they'll they'll diminish the things that gives you meaning if you say oh I'm volunteering in this new group and we're doing all these cool things in the community oh that's such a waste of your time you're doing that for free that's silly these things are never going to happen again otherwise you'd get power from that and they don't want you to be powered the other thing to keep in mind too with this power Dynamic is that the narcissistic person views other people as an object okay so in Psychology and mental health and therapy we talk about subjects and objects right an object is it's what it sounds like a thing a convenience like just like there's a cup or there's a coffee maker these things serve a function and when we need them we're happy about them but we don't think think about them or interact with them like they're living breathing things we don't I don't care if that coffee cup had a good day kind of thing right that's how narcissistic people treat people we are conveniences to them but when I need the coffee cup I might take it in my hand I might even embrace it and hold it might seem like I really cherish this coffee cup because right now this cup has what I want in it so I'm really not I'm looking at it I'm like M I love you cup right and I have nothing to I have no need for you anymore cup so peace bye byy cup MH that's fine for cup imagine you're a person so it's like you're the best when you're doing whatever it is they need you to do but when that function is done they've put you back in the drawer and that's a terrible feeling you exist to serve their needs that's the dynamic here you serve their needs you uphold them you give them Supply you allow them to feel powerful that's the narcissistic relation relationship when people recognize that they were really just serving a convenience they were serving a purpose that's a terrible terrible feeling and then just to add to that analogy because I freaking love it is that then if you're chipped or broken they're just going to discard they're going to discard you yes if you stop working if you if the toaster stops making toast we throw the toaster out so if you're no longer able to do the thing and this takes us to this point which again we we sort of have talked about in other episodes which is one of the greatest moments of Devastation that can happen in a narcissistic relationship is when a person gets sick especially people who are growing old with narcissistic people because they'll say h i don't want to leave this relationship because I'm getting older and I might need support when I get you know I mean it's hard to grow old alone and someone else in the house and whatever the reasons are and the devastation is when that person thinks well I have a partner in the house with me they will care for me no they won't you'll get sick and now you're a problem as long as you were healthy and cooking or cleaning or helping or whatever the heck it whatever functions you serve for this person you don't serve that function anymore they're not going to be interested in you and so and what I remember one client telling me how it sickened her that she had a narcissistic partner she did get quite sick she was in and out of the hospital complain at her I'm my gosh it doesn't even seem real Gaslight her minimize her health problems all that but when he would be in the hospital when he would come make sure he'd visit her on the days everyone else was visiting her and he was the most attentive person like babe do you want a pillow under your knees like babe can I get you something else you want me to go ask the nurse and she said it was horrifying because by and large she was really being left to be again minimized and devalued but what more often is the case is that people get sick the narcissistic person doesn't help at all and they're working under the illusion I have a partner I have help so they didn't set up nurses or carers or drivers or any of that so they're scrambling and I'd say to anyone in a narcissistic relationship if you're going to stick it out then you do what feels right to you but you better have a plan B in place for when you get sick because I can promise you one thing this person ain't changing your adult diapers now if you do a plan B and the narcissist finds out are they going to get more mad with you that you've got a plan like how does that like almost play out they will probably play victim because we haven't even talked enough about that is like how much the narcissistic person will like play victim like you've never believed in me you've NE you know because now what you've done is you've empowered yourself right because when you're sick it's an interesting reversal for them too because now they're really in power but the problem is they're really in power because you're sick but now you need things from them and they don't want to do them so so it's very frustrating so like if it was a wealthy narcissist they would just hire people to care for you but most people don't have those means right they have to pitch in and they don't want to do that they don't want to do be take care of those things narcissistic people will get a little bit Petty you know like oh okay well I guess you got it all figured out you have no use for me and it'll sound a little bit passive aggressive and victim me like I guess there's no point in me being around then I guess well you've got it all figured out don't you guess you don't need me and and so and now many people will find themselves they felt they were now in the position that they had to go rescue the narcissistic person oh no no no no I know you're helpful I just don't want to be a problem like no no I mean you've got all these rides set up but the minute you cancel all those rides they won't provide them for you I'd say hold on to your plan B and say but this is I just feel more comfortable with this oh God the moment you have to go and rescue The Narcissist when you're on your worst day yeah oh couldn't even imagine um so you brought it up let's talk about then when uh naris act like the victim and they start whining what does that look like and then as the person receiving it how can we respond in order to you know hopefully stand up for ourselves or at least protect ourselves they really believe they're the victim they narcissistic people not only are preoccupied with their own sense of suffering and misery and pain they feel everyone's out to get them they feel wronged by the World um they feel life is unfair to them they believe that this is much more pronounced in vulnerable narcissistic people compared to grandos narcissistic people but it's if as anytime something goes wrong for a narcissistic person it's woe is me right so if they don't and if they feel as though they've lost any of the power because again you go and make your plan B then you've taken away some of their power so it's a lot of woe is me at that point they're so entitled narcissistic people are so so entitled that if things don't go their way then they're a victim versus they don't take responsibility it often might be the things that they did that's why things didn't go their way right so I'm suffering worse and and and no one else is suffering right you don't understand how bad this is and meanwhile the person next to them has gone through it a hundred times worse right so that that victimhood in a way sort of like that it's the entitlement but it's coming out in this more passive resentful Sullen way it's still entit victim hood is entitlement right basically I'm entitled to not suffer that's what the entitlement is at that point but they it works because people will often feel that they have to scramble to save them because that's our tendency right a lot of us are Rescuers people who are empathic and compassionate will want to rescue and I will tell you when I you know I've been doing this long enough that when I see the victimized narcissistic person I feel no desire to help them I don't care I have no problem walking out of a room but it certainly makes me look like a little bit of a monster you know that like whoa that's a little bit cold isn't it but and for the early and early when I was doing that I did feel like a bad person like how could I not be reaching in to help somebody who says they're struggling but when you understood it they're always struggling in the context of narcissism they're only struggling because they didn't get their way that's not my problem and but it wasn't my natural tendency to walk away from somebody who was ostensibly suffering I had to remind myself that no this is performative and this is not my problem especially when there's people in the room if they don't know the context that would be so hard it's very hard and I will tell you like i' I've done i' I've done it in front of groups like it's not that abrupt but you'll see I'm tuned out I'm on my phone I'm playing Candy Crush and K Romany and I um and then I'll go to the bathroom like I'm like oh there's a vending machine let me check out something over there I have no and everyone's like oh trying to help them and um sometimes people would say take me aside and some people would you know really be casting some shade my way but people who' know me in these usually it would happen in work settings will say what was that about and I'll say you really going to fall for that victimized nonsense and when I put it in the macro they're like you're right and and but you have to be willing to tolerate that sense of being viewed as the cold one sometimes and that's hard in the beginning it was very hard for me too I did not like that I didn't like that feeling of being thought that I was sort of the bad one because I wasn't going to put up with this whole victim nonsense anymore I just don't care it it's a lot of disengagement it's changed me I mean Lisa from a personal perspective and you'll see this throughout the pages of this book The the number of narcissistic relationships I just had the bad luck to endure and I don't think it was coincident I think having them in all these different areas and phases of my life made me more likely to stick around in others I don't do it anymore but it's also changed how I go through the world socially I'm much more conservative and restricted and how I um how I spend time with other people I yeah I I I think my world has become a lot more narrow as a result so it has changed me so take me through that let's say one instance because I'm trying to think of the people listen at home that so desperately wants to do that right that they've um they've had the experience they find themselves in another situation whether in front of people or not in front of people and they start to notice that these characteristics of the victim hoods coming up if you're a natural empath if you naturally want to you know help people your natural inclination is to start speaking up so number one is okay don't say a word number two like is it pick up your phone and play like actually take me through what that would look like because there's such a difference between wanting to do exactly what you said and really wanting to be like you strong like you and actually doing it doing it so I would say I'd seen I've been to this movie before kind of thing like this person had done this over and over and over again right and it always got us to the same result everyone in trying to he to help the victimized person they ended up getting their way it was a very very skilled manipulation and the day I realized that no matter what I do this other person is going to pull out their whole victimized manipulation and it's always going to go that way like why am I wasting this emotional energy right so now I said I got to pull my psychological energy out of this and I did recognizing that it was draining in the first place and then extracting yourself but number two is that the system was never going to change either it was just recognizing it and that no one else around it wanted to get it right because it wasn't just one-on-one this was a whole group of people so that number three was disengaging and it was recognizing that my needs were never going to be met in this system and it was never really going to work properly so I disengaged but I showed up because I had to I was obligated to show up and I would do other things I mean like I said I mean as rude as it might sound sometimes I when it really got heated and that person was really going on one of their victimized narratives I would play a game under the table because it would at least just pull my focus because I was getting frustrated angry I'd go to the bathroom for a protracted period of time I'd take a long time walking back and read what was on the bulletin board was someone going to stop me from going to the bathroom but I was just keep taking myself out of that situation and I was totally disengaged and and when people are like okay how can we support this idea of such and such how can we I wouldn't say a word I would and they'd say Romy do you have any thoughts I'm like no and um and then the system really got more and more problematic it kept orienting towards the victimized person and really then the victimized person was trying to do less and less and less got away with it created more workload for everyone else but Lisa here's the ultimate punchline is I had to leave the system it was not sustainable I and I was able to leave the system but it took me a very very long time initially I was not able to leave for a variety of practical reasons and then I was able to leave that's why I'm saying these things evolve sometimes we can't leave and then we do leave we find our ways out sometimes you know that that's it it can take years it can take decades it really depends on what it is but that for me it was very much that moment we're like nothing I do here is going to make a difference nothing it's a tough moment because we've exhausted ourselves getting ourselves to that moment of nothing I do nothing I say nothing I played by all the rules I did it all right so inside myself I was like I have exhausted all possibilities and now I'm fine with saying nope this is this is pointless and so I disengage but and and I and nor though the hard part was this person who by now I was disgusted by too see that's the thing when the person's doing this whole victimized thing and you're very familiar with what their Gambit is like no this is this is this is horrible everyone else might be falling for this and it actually made me lose respect for other people in that system too so actually have a couple of other behaviors I'd love to ask you about and then give us maybe like a little cheat shei of what to do in those situations so um you have said that narcissistic behavior they are often Relentless mhm so let's say something someone's being relentless and they just are like a dog with a freaking bone what do you do in those scenarios so that you don't feel like it's coming at you so that you can basically part those Wes and protect yourself a lot of times it's getting distan between you and your ego because when we stay in the fight it's often ego right because narcissistic people are what we call there's a word we use in Psychology called perseverative and to be perseverative means you persever it you keep doing the same thing over and over and over and over again and may are relentless like that they will get there there's an obsessive quality to narcissism that's why they get obsessive about their Revenge fantasies they get obsessive about I'm going to make this person pay they get obsess of I'm gonna get I'm gonna do business with that person they get they get laser focused it's part of the reason many narcissistic people can also be quite successful because they do get obsessive and it does feel Relentless and they don't let it go but this can also happen with points that they're trying to argue with you on it could be have also people go through this in narcissistic divorce they will be relentless about certain things there is no way in hell you are getting this much money and they will lose their mind sometimes even doing illegal things like offshoring money and stuff to make that point right they'll they'll almost like hurt again what I said about the rewards and consequences I've been talking about whatever they can do to get that ear that fix of no way are you getting this from me and that goes to that oppositionality I've talked about with narcissism too they don't like being told what they do do they're obsess obessive they're preservative they get stuck again even to their detriment the reason we get in there with them is our own egos we have pride we want to win we want to make our point and if you can make that break from your ego it's like my ego wants to have that fight like ego you need to take a nap and I'm out like it because it is ego there's no point there's no point in this interaction so once you do that you recognize when you can leave the pride and ego part out that you're not doing it now they are spinning and spinning and spinning like they'll be damned if you won't get into this with them that's that disagreeableness they want the conflict don't give it to them because they will they they're better made to fight than you are they really are they're Scrappy Fighters and and some people like fighting and if you like fighting then go for it then that's you that's not the average Survivor so um when you say don't you know basically take the bait if they are Relentless would they just eventually wear out and and stop then is that go they we or they'll leave and that's that abandonment piece they may say they'll say I'm out of here I'm done with you okay that that is in the long run you will always be better off if you can get out of one of these relationships and in the long run you'll always be better off if they're the one to leave you know Common sort of if you will sort of how do I put it um armchair relationship advice is you want to be the one to leave doesn't it feel better if you're the one to leave right so you're taking your power taking your power back no you're not in this case when the narcissistic person leaves what you've done is you've taken all your headaches and and taken them back and like I don't have to have these anymore they leave they have the illusion of ego You've Won and even though it's hard to see that initially I promise you you have won when if if they go if because you say you basically don't say you don't fall for their Relentless baiting you don't get into the mud with them you don't fall into the pit of their agreeableness you don't feel the need to soothe all their victimized nonsense you don't do any of those things they're probably going to walk they're going to walk they're going to find new Supply who will do those things for them and for a lot of people it's like but but but what if I'm making a mistake you're not and that's hard that's the hard part is helping people recognize that the best thing just happened to you and people will the trauma Bond means that they keep sort of looking through the rearview mirror wondering was that a mistake was that really my person maybe I'm misreading it maybe they're not this may they are you know it's they really are most people have suffered for years and years and years so they feel certain that they were right in seeing this as a toxic relationship so when it goes initially there's a I hope I didn't make a mistake and then there's a you it will will get better that I can tell you after doing this with hundreds of people thousands of people it gets better it's so interesting the power piece about that people think they would rather leave because you feel like you're taking your power back um and I would assume then in having the narcissists leave the relationship it's almost like serving their part of the another characteristic that you talk about is their need for dominance and their need you know for the power so they feel good about it cuz they feel like they have the dominance and power and so almost giv them what they want so they never have to come back and correct well I tell you an interesting way to think about it I'm always amazed Lisa at how much people don't understand how divorces work I really am like you know when you rent a car there's like you read the things like okay if I go through a toll I have to pay this much if there's a they nice rental car people give you that contract you can even read it ahead of time like okay got it got it got it nobody reads that fine print on marriage they don't and I think it's because we don't really give them the fine print on marriage and as a result most people don't understand how a divorce Works they don't understand community property they don't understand prenuptual agreements they don't understand custody they don't understand any of it okay least of all the narcissists who are all so entitled that somehow they don't think that the divorce laws of their state apply to them so this is something I've seen happen many times the narcissistic person gets married they don't have a prenuptual agreement they find new Supply they get caught relationship falls apart okay and the narcissist is like to hell with it I'm out I'm leaving they're thinking they've got their new Supply and all of that and then they read the fine print the divorce attorney says okay well the value of your house is this and that's half of this in the retirement account this and the person's like wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute you're telling me I have to give this person I was married to all this money and the attorney is like yeah like that's how that's that's how the divorce Works in Most states we in California I can only speak that's the only laws I've ever you know had to my clients have gone through so yeah you're gonna have to pay this money and the narcissistic person's like well that's not fair and the guy's like you married this person right the attorney is like you married this person you signed a piece of paper you marry them this is what you agreed to I didn't agree to this yeah you did when you married them it's a legal contract okay and then you know what the narcissists often do they go back because of that because they don't want to do that so then they'll do things like try to figure out new ways to be Shady in the marriage but don't won't want to leave it or they'll try to engage in a postnuptial agreement so they don't have but they like this is why you know it's like it's drawing blood from a stone in a divorce because they're very oppositional so it may very well be that a a partner spouse that they encourage to leave the workplace the narcissistic person took over the finances that partner or spouse might have supported them in their business may have raised kids whatever now they're saying well I don't want to give them anything that's classical but they'll come back in if they don't want to give up the money they just don't think that these rules apply to them but then people get confused when they come back and I have to say I've seen this happen at least a half dozen times where the narcissistic person for all their smarts didn't really pay attention to what marriage really meant and as the higher wage earner that they were going to be in some financial obligation to this person that they were married to these are long marriages 20 30 years plus and it's the the person foolishly sadly let them back in because they thought they really wanted to come back after all they would tell them we built this life together I'll change I'll change but it when we're in therapy together I'd have to say you know it was really because they didn't want to give you that money and I was like got that now and and then they have to almost replay this whole process twice oh and then they reenact everything that we've spoken about in past episodes as well where they're hoovering you and they're crumbing you I think I've heard it all and then I'll hear about one more of these narcissistic divor and it's and the way I explained it to one client is you know she said I was married to this guy for what in one case it was like somewhere between 25 and 30 years and that the hard part for her to get her head around was he would be okay with me being homeless and I said he would be 100% okay with you being homeless 100% that was a lot for her to swallow wow yeah cuz you go from all right they don't really love me but to have that type of ill will and it's just it's not even ill will Lisa it's not caring I think not caring is worse than ill will interesting oh tell me it's the absolute disregard the the way we many of us might struggle with walking by most of us I'd like to think would struggle to walk by someone who was struggling who was really really having a hard time even if we might have doubts on like how they got there and all that like I can't this person's suffering I have to I I care about other human beings I have no relationship to this person this is a person who was married to you who once stood in front of a group of people and proclaimed their love for you who you may have raised kids with whose families you've gotten to know who doesn't care if you are unsafe they don't care and that concept of absorbing that somebody just doesn't care the callousness of that that has got to be one of the hardest things I've seen survivors grapple with yeah I can only imagine because ill will in a way is more like I want something I want something bad to happen to you right it it's feels more revenging and then you can almost see it as like okay they're mad whatever but that I don't care what happens to you that feels like a dismissiveness at the highest level and that's really really hard for people to get their heads around but it's all part of that process of radical acceptance which is really where the healing process begins there's a quote in a song um or a line in a song that goes something like I would rather you hate me than you forget me yes and that's that's exactly that we want to evoke feeling in people and when the as the narcissistic divorce goes through people will say I had no idea what this person was capable of they is the first they're seeing the breath of it you know really it is that sense of you don't care you I mean people they didn't care that their kids would be living someplace dangerous they didn't care that their kids' quality of Education was going to drop they didn't care they were punishing everyone because of that oppositionality I didn't get my way you can't have my stuff it's like the kid holding all the toys saying you can nobody can have any of my toys I work for these toys with no concept that it was a partnership it was a spouse keeping a life running that allowed this person to build what they built no recognition all right I've got another behavior that you say that's fascinating that I we haven't really touched on much you kind of loosely did but that um narcissist have thin skin yes narcissistic people are very very sensitive they are interpersonally sensitive they are they react very strongly to any form of feedback or criticism and again if you think of the architecture of a narcissistic person there's this deep insecurity with them it's like a well of shame that is so it's like capped off like an old oil well or something like that and it's kept down so it's unconscious for them it's this chronic that's always bubbling bubbling it's always this fighty fight part of them that's there there's an edginess to narcissistic people right and they probably even experience it internally but they don't know what it is however when somebody it's almost like someone's giving you they tell you something's gold but you scratch your finger on it and you see it's just plain metal underneath when anyone scratches their little gold leaf off the top and that the fact that they're just metal shows up it brings up in them a strong series of reactions but mostly it's Panic it's shame it's a shame a wave of Shame coming up like I'm being I'm not perfect and someone's going to see it they're going to and then that shame results in Rage so then the rage means they're powerful right ah I'm more powerful than you you're scared of me but it's really because you brought out that that thing and I and and it is a I think people it's one of the when people say what are the red flags that might be one of the most clear red flags there is how does the person pe's like what what I've just met this person known each other a few months what can I look for how do they respond to criticism or other forms of disappointment so it could be the table's not ready at the restaurant um they uh they had a workplace conflict you give them feedback maybe a friend of yours makes a playful Jive about something you know that they're and and how do they react to that if they react like in very disproportionate rude attacking way pay attention to that because sometimes people say well I think they're just a little socially anxious because they're meeting new people or I was going to say well maybe they're just a little sensitive but you in your examples of the table versus hey you said something that's hurt my feelings two very different scenarios yeah yeah absolutely so it's a a that thin skinned quality actually makes is one thing that makes narcissistic people dangerous that it's in fact in the research they call it thin skin provocation so these are the people for example we hear all these stories of these Road ragers who will run someone off the road that's that thin skinniness in practice they don't they don't like that somebody might have gotten in their way or told them no or even you know given a gesture at them so they won't punish that person and it's it's a real driver for aggression it's also again I mean I've said think I've said this like eight times now already but there's there's so much confusion in it because especially if you see somebody that appears dominant strong and then you see that they're really sensitive like it actually can seem um a little confusing or to be honest depending on the scenario I may be like look they've got like a heart they're sensitive different kind of sensitive so it's not like oh I'm hurt you hurt my feelings it's anger let's say they're sensitive to something and it's uh they show it in Anger that doesn't necessarily mean they're a narcissist cuz I assume that sensitivity can lead to that type of uh response in most a lot of people the reason why I saying it is because sometimes I get angry when I'm when someone's like pressed a sensitive button and my protective mechanism is to get angry but actually it just comes from a source of insecurity correct we might do that and say immediately say I was out of line I am so sorry it's none of us are perfect right the narcissistic people think they're perfect none of us are perfect if somebody pushes a pressure point right we may get very Snappy and but the awareness that self-reflective capacity that's lacking in narcissistic people for us to say Okay that was not okay and we reach out to the staffers or we reach out to the friend and say I was out of line you know that was uncomfortable for me um I am sorry that I my reaction was was out out of life and um I hope you're okay that's not something a narcissistic person would do so that to understand that yes we have those but that thin SK it's called again thin skin provocation is this it could be the smallest thing it could be that you accidentally Brush by them in a store and they turn around and start screaming at you it could be this is what I'm saying road rage is a big part of this it could be um a little little bit of feedback and it's a that even the smallest thing smallest thing can set them off but what happens though is that ultimately becomes a tool of control because everyone's now afraid of them so nobody creates a circumstance where so they don't get feedback they don't get criticism and this is how monsters get made because they get to sit in their bully pulpits and if you think of some of the most narcissistic like corporate corporate leaders of political leaders and you read about the people around them you'll say nobody would ever tell that person something they didn't want to hear there's no way so you can't you can't govern that way you can't lead that way if you're never being told what's wrong but if everyone's too afraid to do it you can see how everything can come tumbling down under those circumstances could be very similar in a family I mean I've seen family systems where the whoever was at the narcissistic head of the family because everyone was so afraid of their rage would give that person an ounce of feedback and wouldn't even tell them important things that probably would have been important for that person to know but everyone was just too scared now one of the character behaviors that I find um very tricky um is that you say they're incredibly charismatic and so everything we've already said is almost like the negative right when they're irritable when they do this when they you know won't let things go dog with a bone but the opposite sometimes can be even harder because it feels really good in the moment so when someone um is being incredibly charismatic how do you know if it's uh if it's part of their uh mask that they're wearing or how do you know if it's genuine and then when if you start to spot that actually it's a mask how would you uh actually then respond to that if you see it in front of you most charismatic people are very performative and in my experience when I've talked to charismatic people when they've come off the stage they're no longer the center of attention I don't feel that they're looking at me I feel like they're looking through me there's something very different in their gaze and I can pick up in it right away I can feel it in my body and that's what I'm like no all that all that stuff we saw on the stage there's no there there and I will I will end I'll end the interaction on my part it's it's lovely to meet you and I'm out like I I won't do it but what about that rarest of things the charismatic Charming person who's a decent human being and maybe you don't have the gut intuition that you have because you've experienced everything you have I would say the first thing is are they capable of having a balanced conversation and listening so in other words does does the conversation have to be all be all about them or are they able to ask a question about about you so to meet someone Charming charming and charismatic they come off the stage you're talking with them and it's a real conversation it's not them looking sort of looking through the corner to what's the next best thing they need to get to they track the conversation you feel seen and heard to that to the alternate there's somebody I met recently who is very charismatic very successful and beloved by millions and millions of people absolutely awful person absolutely awful was asking me questions that were just rude they were dis missive they were I wasn't being seen I wasn't being heard and I was being given the bums rush and I'm thinking to myself F you I don't care if people think you invented fire you do not have the right to behave that way and I'll be frank with you this is somebody who I know a lot of people like reading this person's work I'm not referring people to his work because it felt like it was written by a relatively soulless person and so it is can they that charming and charismatic person be present with you hear you not be dismissive not monopolize the conversation that's the sort of thing to show genuine interest in you and if they can do that and you feel seen and heard that's a good sign and again I'm not talking you meet a celebrity off a stage and that's not the circumstance because that wouldn't work obviously they're going to be thousand people trying to clamoring that's what I'm talking about I'm really talking about someone you're meeting in a circumstance where it would be appropriate to slow down and have a conversation and that they are attuned to you and hearing you and it's not the them show and having said all of everything we've just spoken about today you actually in your book also then break down has have narcissistic resistance and so you've got three tips and it starts with become Gaslight resistant right so how do you so to become Gaslight resistant is you have to give yourself permission to own your reality okay and own reality in general so that means listening to your body being plugged into what what what matters to you so this will be the kind of let me give you an example once a person has been through a narcissistic gaslighted relationship they lose all sense of they don't even know what kind of they don't even know what kind of dessert they like anymore they don't even know if they like a dessert they don't know if they're cold they don't know if they're hungry they they've lost all that why because when they said those things in the narcissistic relationship they' say you can't be hot it's it's it's it's it's cold in here or you can't be hungry we just ate or you don't like that kind of cake you keep hearing that long enough you're like I don't know what I like so one thing I'll tell people is get familiar with yourself who are you what are you about what do you like everything from what do you like on your pizza to what matters to you in the world to how do you want to spend a Saturday night you know there's all kinds of like actually journals out there that have those prompts like get to know you kinds of um prompts do some of those because getting to know yourself is actually something we don't do a lot of we we are often overly shaped by the world outside of us a few times a day catch yourself and ask yourself how do I feel right now you might say like my back hurts a little or I feel good or I feel a little off balance like that kind of allowing yourself to sort of have these moments of reality within yourself can make a big difference the second thing is to know what gaslighting is right and that's its own process right to be gaslighted it's not simply to be lied to or be told I never said that or that never happened though that's the first part of the gaslighting second part of the gaslighting is then to also be told there's something wrong with you or you you know you have memory problems or you're out to get me or something that's comply untrue that makes that destabilize izes you CU like that's not true and maybe I didn't remember it right and then you start to believe that there's something wrong with you happens enough you do believe that there's something wrong with you so again it's that sense of knowing what it is so that when it happens to you you're very aware of what this person's doing you don't even have to say to them don't Gaslight me you can say this person is gaslighting me so I'm not engaging with this it's really that I know what my reality is the sky is blue my skirt is black like you in even if no no it's actually green okay and then you learn responses another way to become Gaslight resistant is to learn responses so when a person says your skirt is green I'd say okay that's interesting I see it as black you're having a different experience than me I hear that we're cool done there's no no you're out of your mind it's green I'm like I you think it's green I not out of my mind I see it as something different thanks you don't say you're gaslighting me don't say stop that you don't try to prove to them it's black like you're having a different experience than me we're cool and I love that you didn't also just agree with them no no no no no no no no no no it's got you you're having a different we're having different experiences here keep that in your back pocket because when someone's doing that you say we're having different experiences a gaslighter is never going to say that to you they're going to say basically my experience is the only experience and you say yeah that's I guess we're this is different for us I love that you're having we're having different experiences such a good because we'll say that to people like for you know it's funny it's a time of year everyone's talking movies movies movies right and it's fascinating for me to hear this absolutely different takes speaking with someone just today talking about a very popular film and they asked did you like it I said I actually really liked it and they said well I hated it Bobby and um I knew it listed all the reasons and they said why did you like it I said well you know there's an interesting interesting existential feminist message but you know I said but I hear you and and then the person had G me a long reason for why they didn't like it our temptation is to get into a fight about why it was a great movie but instead if we can practice like and this this person wasn't trying to tell me you're wrong and no point did they say Barbie is bad and you're dumb for thinking it's good they never said that but these opportunities become but people have been overly gaslighted will say maybe I'm wrong for liking that movie I like maybe there's something wrong with me no you liked the movie that's fine they didn't like the movie that's fine if they start to tell you you're wrong that's one step in through the Gateway of being gaslighted and then if they tell you there's something wrong with you for liking that movie you've just been gaslighted and say I hear why you didn't like it I liked it a lot so you can acknowledge hearing them and if they say you're dumb say and you know what you do just hold your ground I liked it a lot after a while you do sound like a little simple but that's okay because I I'll say I liked it and they'll say no a dumb person would like it I'm like yeah I liked it they go got nowhere else to go and then they get very frustrated with me like you're the dumbest person I never want to go to the movies with you I'm like I'm good with that yeah yeah after all that it's like I don't want to watch a movie with you it's it's interesting how you break that movie down because taking it out of like an emotional thing actually makes it really clear of how comical almost it is about how they try to change your mind and when it's something like that's detached from your heart it's actually movie is easier yes CU it's attached from your heart but when it's personal you these reasonings and these upsets but it was like I like the movie like what I going to say but Lisa that movie example A lot of people would have gotten into a fight over it they'd have fought for their movie that's the ego like no way best movie of the year best movie of the year you're AUD no but you're like yeah who I liked it Go movie I happen to like it what up homie I got something free and new to share with you right now how often are you visited by that negative voice in your head telling you that you're not smart enough that you're not good enough experienced enough not fill in the blank one of the most powerful things you can learn to do in life is to turn that negative voice into your bestie and I want to teach you how to do that and so much more in my four steps to becoming confidence workshop and guys the most amazing thing is you can actually register for completely free for this Workshop so click the link on your screen and I see you on the inside all right so now we've already built our gas lighting uh resistance which love that you've just taught us so then the second one that you say in order for us to build the narcissistic resistant you know blueprint let's say is listen to your in a Critic yes so the in this book you know because I was this it's not you as focused on moderate narcissistic relationships and it's important for me to make that distinction because there's a whole realm of very severe narcissistic relationships more of what we'd see in the realm of malignant narcissism that are characterized by Dynamics like coercive control and exploitation and intimidation stuff that's scary and even dangerous right while when that happens it's terrible I was not going to be able to write one book that hit the whole spectrum of experience because that's more we're talking about safety we're talking about protection sometimes we even talking about legal and criminal issues that's not this this is the vast majority of people who show up in one of my offices is this idea of the moderate narcissistic relationship it's enough to really throw you off balance to make you uncomfortable to leave feeling betrayed and sick but it's not the terror the people in these relationships are typically not experiencing violence or things like that now there're also mild narcissistic relationships which are annoying and sort of stunted and ridiculous it's like it's a it's a partner that will say like no no like we have to get like we have to take like a million pictures on our trip and post them all on Instagram you're like I just want to take a vacation grow up you know and so it can feel it can feel sort of vapid cotton candy silly immature it doesn't feel like a person who's adulting again that's not that harmful it's annoying this is harmful but it's not dangerous so they going back to the site of the inner critic the inner critic has you know some if it's Origins and other models that are very highly used and heavily used in therapy like internal family systems work and and even Parts models like fragmentation theories around trauma and all of that but this idea of the inner critic if we take all of that and sort of turn it into something that people could understand outside of a therapist room is that inner voice that's telling us like oh my gosh you're so dumb do you really think you could start a YouTube channel who would ever be dumb enough to watch you that's the voice inside of you you're like well that's a mean voice where did that come from that inner critic in some strange little way is trying to protect you and what is it trying to protect you from is the idea that failure and harm and all these other things could come and it's equating all that you take this chance and a terrible thing's going to come may not go well and then what right and it it's almost like your anxious friend saying I don't know I don't think you should go on this trip it's kind of dangerous it's icy roads you want to tell your friend like I'm good I got the right tires please let me go be myself your inner critic is actually trying to keep you safe that's what it's trying to do but the problem is we see it as a voice inside of us telling us we're dumb telling us we're foolish telling us we're going to fail and if we can because it's a voice inside of us maybe recognize where that came from and also what it's trying to do to protect us right then instead of hearing it as a voice telling us we're damaged we can hear it as a part of ourselves that's actually trying to keep us safe and receive it with compassion because that voice can often lead us to stop ourselves right and to say you almost say inner critic I got you like if I if this doesn't go well I'll be okay but that inner critic can also be viewed as related to sort of an inner child inside of you right the child who's terrified because for the child who failed it might have meant losing love every Survivor of narcissistic relationships I've ever worked with will say things like I am so dumb I am the dumbest person I do it all the time I'm always talking to myself as though I'm stupid and I'm a failure and I'm a loser that language comes out of me all the time right that was language I was using to almost get ahead of narcissistic abuse to protect myself but then one day I had to catch myself and say inside of me and guide guiding even that inner critic is that inner child and so one day I grabbed a picture of myself when I was 5 years old and I said go ahead Romney tell her she's stupid I burst into tears I'm like oh my gosh like maybe someone said that to her I don't know but I'm like I can't tell I can't tell her she's stupid she's a sweetie and that shut it down a lot for me I still do it from time to time but that idea that I was telling that child is inside me is still trying to try things feel safe very scared and likely silenced by narcissistic voices when we can recognize that vulnerability exists within us and instead of being mad at it and treating ourselves as damaged to cherish that and say had that 5-year-old self of us been nourished and nurtured and cherished at that time we would be in a very different place now and it's never too late but that understanding that the inner critic those voices are trying to keep us safe can help us then be less likely to believe the nonsense the narcissistic person is saying to us and instead realize like oh I see what you're doing this has been i' been I've been here before and and I am not allowing this to happen again but it's understanding the function sometimes this negative selft talk is really just to keep ourselves Feeling Again safe and in control in situations where we don't feel safe at the time that inner critic voice developed if you failed it wouldn't have been okay and that's where that voice really comes from oh that's so strong so strong um okay and then the last thing that we can do on building our resistance is to understand the sympathetic nervous system yes so this relates to what I was just saying fight flight freeze Fawn submit and all of these functions these parts of us how we respond to situations that we experience as threat are designed to feel make us to to leave us feeling safe the sympathetic nervous system was really really designed as a an alarm system that was designed to detect actual threat and respond to it think of it as like a burglar alarm on your house kind of thing but the burglar alarm goes off every time a leaf Wags in the wind right so it's always going off you know like oh my gosh this is costing me a fortune and this is ridiculous and that's a little bit what an overactive sympathetic nervous system does so for example people with post-traumatic stress disorder the sympathetic nervous system is completely thrown off because once we experience something like a trauma we internalize that and the world feels more threatening the same thing happens to people who are in long-term narcissistic relationships things like conflict become Terri Ying um sharing of ourselves becomes terrifying all these things that are actually normal Things become scary because they were places of shame or humiliation or minimization or devaluation or gaslighting or whatever so what happens over time is that you know we people always use this term triggered what it really means is that we have this physiological physically held sematic reaction to certain stimuli in our environment an example would be someone raising their voice maybe someone's raising their voice not out of anger but like come on you guys come on like this is a great idea and then someone in the room is starting to get trembly because what they heard was a raised voice which might have been the voice of the narcissistic father right and they're having this this sort of reaction within themselves that they're feeling it physically and then what happens is we have these different kinds of sorts of sympathetic reactions and the fight reaction and some really interesting work here most pointedly Janina Fischer's work here that you know the fight might literally you take the fight but sometimes the fight is anger it's like this is unfair the sense of like what the hell is happening here this is unfair and when we feel things are unfair we feel them physiologically our heart races like we don't like that feeling the freeze is when someone's coming at us and maybe saying things that create those old familiar sort of triggered feelings in the freeze we can't find the right word we're stuck we can't respond a lot of people feel shame at those times saying why did I just stand there like some kind of fool feel like an a-hole I was just standing there and that not realizing that that was your nervous system then there is the the flight which is either to withdraw to pull yourself out to check out to dissociate right so you're you're again once again you're sort of pulled out it's not so much that that sort of stuckness as much as you're just woo you go you go out of there then there's the Fawn and we attempt to win the narcissist over especially when they're really coming at us like we try to be what they want some people might even say that they felt like they were almost trying to be seductive with the narcissist just to get them to just to please them because if you pleased them they wouldn't be a threat and then the submit response is like a person just gives in and capitulates and that can almost becomes like sort of depressed they they sort of lose their will but all of these responses are safety responses that have gone gone a ride they've gone too far and some of these responses like Fawn and freeze people will often feel shame about the fight response they'll feel like well I'm the one to blame right it it brings you into this idea that you're somehow complicit the thing that we have to remember and and Janita Fisher says this beautifully is we have to be curious about these responses because as they're happening when we stop and realize what is this about why is this happening and then to really realize that that predominant response has an ancient sort of origin for us right and it's all part of this idea of trying to feel safer at that time but by understanding these responses in ourselves instead of being angry how could I have been so foolish and not spoken is to say ah I was really really being activated at that time and I can I understand what that response was about if anything it tells us more about the circumstance we're in that this is an unsafe situation and that's something I really try to get people to in these relationships I need you to identify that this pattern it's not safe for not safe as in you're going to die or safe unsafe as in danger but you you no longer really feel comfortable in your body and many survivors of narcissistic abuse will say yeah I never felt comfortable in my body around this person like I told myself the stories I needed to keep this relationship going but I never kind of felt right these are people who report GI problems nervous system issues heaviness in their chest clenching of the throat weakness in their limbs tension in their limbs headaches they were carrying all of this in their bodies and the and the when the threat would increase they'd feel it in these other nervous system responses but it's to recognize that these are all alarm signs that something isn't right and many times our sympathetic nervous system tells us it's like an early warning system when I when I for me I carry it in my throat I carry clenching in my throat and sometimes I feel a heaviness in my chest or a clench in my gut when I start feeling those physiological signs when I'm with someone like okay something I'm not good in my body here something's happening here let me pay attention and and then I'm a faer I'm very aware that fawning is my safety response and I have felt shame about that it's to catch myself when I'm doing that and say slow down sister you don't feel safe right now you know so you might you might do better than just to sort of think give your show yourself some Grace step back you're just trying to feel safe here so it's it's a way by understanding basically your body is telling you about a red flag before you've even shaped the beginning of it in your mind and what I think is so strong is you know those flags for yourself and it's going to be different for everybody and as you were saying I was like yeah my face gets warm yeah that's my heart starts racing and then my gut just tenses like a knot so if those three things for me happen I know that I'm having a response to something and I tell people if you can can get out of there for a minute get you breathing is huge on getting your your nervous system reoriented using your breath breathing grounding sometimes just a hand to your chest feeling your heartbeat you know feeling just counting the Beats bringing them down orienting to your body all of these things can help kind of bring you down from that and then recognize that you're responding to but again often a l held threat in your body but that may not even be happening here it could simply be that person with that loud voice is actually really being enthusiastic and but the problem with the sympathetic nervous system respones it almost blocks you from being able to take in what's really happening you just aren't able to like take it in you're just like alarm alarm you're going to kill me versus like what's happening here and like oh I see it and I also understand why I was triggered yeah so in order to become narcissistic resistant um it's to be resistant to gaslighting to listen listen to your inner critic and then understand your sympathetic nervous system tune into yourself you know your body is telling you your body holds a lot of this so listen to it guys hit that subscribe button if this episode impact you as much as it did with me girl where can we find you and your amazing book it's not you and just the insane amount of content and beautiful work you're putting out in the in the world this is a book that was written from my heart and frankly my nervous system to help people heal to become more narcissist resistant learning about discernment and all the rest of the other things we talk about you can also find me on YouTube at Dr Romany on all socials at Dr Romany and we also have a healing program for people are interested you can go to my website Dr romney.com hear more about people an entire community of thousands of people who work every day on healing from these relationships it's a reminder that while this isn't easy it's really possible if you want to stand up for yourself when someone totally disrespects you then keep watching typically when I meet a new client I set those boundaries out of the gate here's here's what you can expect from me here are the things that I'm committing to doing for you and with you and here I'm available to you at a moment's notice between the hours of 700 a.m. and 900 p.m. nothing is so urgent in what we do for a living that there needs to be a phone call after 9:00 p.m. at night already am available to my clients much longer than a typical attorney or a doctor would be um or anybody that is an entrepreneur um and at some point I have to shut it off so I make that stuff known out of the gate and that those expectations are set um earlier in my career I didn't do that I was like I'm available 247 you call me at 1 o'clock in the morning I will pick up um I don't do that anymore because I find it doesn't service them and it s sure as hell doesn't service me if I don't have time to sort of reset in the evenings um then I can't be my best self at 7:00 a.m. when they actually do need me and when we're in actually during business hours where we can actually get something accomplished other than complain to one another so I'm very clear with my clients out of the gates about setting parameters on what they can what their expectations are and what I can deliver can I ask you one more thing about that um I mean I I guarantee it they respect you even more because you set those boundaries when you first start absolutely absolutely like for example because I am on a TV show when I go out on a listing appointment from time to time they know me from the TV show and they might say well we're looking to have you represent us solely I will S I will come to the listing appointment with either my co-listing partner and or my director of operations and say Here's the team for you I cannot be in 10 places at once I currently have 15 listings on the market north of $5 million in Los Angeles so there is going to be times where we need to get a client into your house and I'm going to be booked and in if that's the case these are the people that are going to be there for you during that time and I set that expectation on the front end so that they understand it question then do you so you've thank you for sharing that's beautiful and now do you set those types of boundaries with your friends and with your partners and I'm much better at setting boundaries professionally than I am personally I mean I think we can all agree that that's a little bit more challenging our relationships personally have um so much more important emotional important to us um to our our us thriving and so I'm willing to sometimes accept a lot less and that's the journey that I'm on and in again that's why boundaries can be crossed and you can come back from them but you know I'm working on that consistently I know that's um you know a struggle of mine um defining boundaries within my person what I'm willing to accept from my boyfriend my ex-husband um what my expectations are of my kids um so yeah I I I work on it every day dude so thank you for being so honest because I think D you're such a freaking bad and people are going to be like oh my God it's so easy for you you look so confident you look so straightforward like I can say this to anybody and it's so damn important for people to hear no no no I work on this every day no no no no it is easy actually for me in the business now but it's still difficult in the personal life and I can only freaking relate go I'm it's really easy for me to make decisions to be a boss to like really lead in business the S second it comes to my personal life I'm like what do you want oh I don't know where to eat I don't right like and I'm so indecisive and I'm like what the hell it's so weird how our P maybe our strength or our personalities when it comes to business we can be very regimented but once you bring in the heart I think as women we just really do care and so we can't help but have those ever so slightly sometimes blend together well and it's difficult I think and and tell me if you experien this as well but for me again the business piece and being the boss and making decisions comes a little bit easier I think because of the nature of falling on my face so many times to get to where I am today and now having that success and that confidence that you know what yeah I have it when I was born but I built on that and and I'm 47 years old so you know when I talk to younger Generations about building confidence I'm like learn from my mistakes right so being that I am where I am today there is a part of me that goes from professional to personal and I kind of want to like someone else to be the boss you know I kind of don't want to make as many decisions and maybe that's a part of me that's just exhausted and there you know a part of innately my personality is maybe I kind of there's a part of me that wants to take a little not a backseat but just rest my weary you know head for a minute and and you know I'm a strong personality and I don't typically come with with or am attracted to someone with a weak personality so in my personal relationships that can be difficult because they're like well wait a minute like Are You The Boss are you not the boss are we equal like what the [ __ ] is going on with you and I'm like I just wish that you would take the Reigns for once and and and run the show here oh dude this is so freaking important because um I love this being freaking strong independent knowing what you want going after your dreams crushing your goals and still looking to somebody else it's like yeah I actually want you to lead to me is strength it isn't a [ __ ] sign of weakness it's a sign of strength that you go I don't need to always lead to feel amazing I can absolutely feel amazing with having someone else lead and you know what right now it's actually the decision I think is best for me that is such a big sign of strength and I think we need to keep echoing that because we do think of it as I think the outside world any I thinks of it as a sign of weakness and I think it's trapping us women because we're not able to say I just want to rest like I am exhausted I because we can be because we can be looked at like you know someone like your personality or my personality when we want to take that break it's like oh she's she's a boss and she's so confident but she's this is a farce and the reality is it's not it's it's it's understanding and being confident enough to stand on your own two feet and and make a choice to say I'm going to I'm going to take a backseat on this one you run with this that doesn't mean weakness it doesn't mean anything but it can be confusing to the people around us because you know for for example my boyfriend's expectation is I'm running the show all of the time as in you mhm in but all facets of my life so sometimes I'll find that he has a a challenge with like finding a moment where I'm not doing Tracy 10.0 you know and and obviously that's that's a part of who I am organically authentically and I get it like it's and so when I get frustrated and I'm like I'm tired you make a plan for us to go somewhere for the weekend if that's what you want I don't have time and he's like I don't know why you're frustrated with me and the truth is I'm not frustrated I just wish you could see the layers of of me saying I'm giving you an opportunity to to step into this and and take control of the situation and let me let me take a rest and that's very difficult I think for the people that love us to understand when when her time when is she backing out of this equation and that I think is what makes it difficult to be with a woman like myself because you never know when you're supposed to be on or off or go along for the ride or take control of that ride yeah so actually I wouldn't mind if you wouldn't mind talking about your ex-husband and what um ended up happening there because I've heard you say that he was gaslighting you and blaming you that the reason why your marriage was ending was because you were just working too much yeah I want to lead with we've come a long way since then and of course I think the reason I get asked about this a lot is because only very recently have I talked publicly about what happened in my marriage I spent the better part of five years keeping that very personal and close to the vest because I have children and the kids now are very aware and very they're astute and they probably knew all along but it was it was a choice that Jason and I both made to protect them that said I I came out with it and spoke publicly and now people really do want to know and the truth is he did Gaslight me and there was narcissistic behavior on his part be you know with the gaslighting and and he's done a lot of work on himself since then and I think has made a lot of changes for the better but in those moments when you go through something like that and you're in a relationship whether it's for five years or 15 years like mine um there's so much betrayal and there's so much to recover from and I think in terms of moving forward and making the decision to finally um file for divorce again it was my last straw it wasn't the first time you know again I talked to you about the fuzzy boundaries um you know there are certain things that I accepted over the years because I felt till death to you part right right like traditionally that's how we were raised when you sign on the dotted line and this contract we call marriage that's what we're committing to and I really wholeheartedly believe that until all of a sudden I [ __ ] didn't and that was after you know probably five years of I think both Jason and I being not 100% committed to the marriage and happy did uh you know obviously an affair eventually happened and that was my final straw of saying I'm ready to file and the recovery from that betrayal was very difficult for me and it took a lot of years and a lot of girlfriends to kind of reset what that looks like but the truth is um you know it's about in my opinion now I'm redefining how I look at relationships how I look at marriage what that means to me what I'm willing to accept what I think what I'm willing to tolerate what I'm not willing to tolerate and how do I look at that whole institution and the truth is I believe still in the institution of marriage but I think there's different versions of it I don't think the standard you know in sickness and in health till death do you part you know above everything else is the way to look at marriage I think it puts women in a situation where and in a situation where you're forced to stay in something because you signed up for this tradition that you don't necessarily want to be in and I think if we can open up our mindset about how we define marriage and how we look at the relationship then I think we're going to be a lot happier in the marriages that we're in and a lot Freer with how we're able to analyze whether or not we want to stay in them any longer but you know I I uh I do work hard and I expect that that's not going to get in the way and it shouldn't get in the way of having a healthy and happy relationship and I still firmly believe that but it's about us redefining how we look at our relationships personally that's the only way to I think have a successful relationship as a woman that is an entrepreneur and in business and is successful at what she does why the hell is it I'm really asking that we accept poor Behavior disrespect someone pushing you out like really being mean potentially and we we will keep accepting I've heard you even say like before it really hit the F [ __ ] hit the fan it was like you kind of like in no man's land where it was like you're not loving the relationship but there isn't necessarily A A defining thing that pushes you to leave and I like the amount of people that I've spoken to that are just like it's the cheating that then made the decision it was the abuse like so even with narcissistic relationships there are people where it's like if it's just verbal abuse sometimes it's like well is this enough for me to leave and it's like if they hit me then at least it would be easier for me to say well yes they hit me so I should leave and then you'll find an excuse as you know that they hit you but it wasn't really it was an open hand slap like there's always going to be reasons I've I've listened to I was guilty of it myself for many years um I listen to my friends sort of stay in marriages you know for the kids or whatever um you hear it every single day us everybody's sort of pushing the it down the line I'm just going to push it 10 yards down the line 20 yards down the line and before you know it you're like at like you know you're in you're at the touchdown on the on their end and you've completely sort of lost the ability to negotiate on your own behalf on like what because you haven't stood up for yourself right but it's it's it's defining it differently you can't sign up for this institution unless you're prepared to follow it to the tea and I don't believe that women today or men today want to follow the old institution anymore so why are we not defining that more clearly why aren't we having that discussion why aren't we dis why can't we have an open marriage or an open relationship as long as we Define it and I'm not saying that's for me personally cuz it isn't way too jealous of you know I'm like um but there's plenty of different ways to have a very successful relationship Andor marriage as long as the two people involved can be candid about what their needs are and what their desires are and not attach shame to it and and say it from get and then I think the possibilities are endless but I think still think we're sort of stuck in that old school mentality which inevitably by the way has not served anyone uh more than 50% of of marriages and in divorce so who is who is the old institution really serving half of the community you know what up homie I got something free and new to share with you right now how often are you visited by that negative voice in your head telling you that you're not smart enough that you're not good enough experienced enough not fill in the blank one of the most powerful things you can learn to do in life is to turn that negative voice into your bestie and I want to teach you how to do that and so much more in my four steps to becoming confidence workshop and guys the most amazing thing is you can actually register for completely free for this Workshop so click the link on your screen and I see you on the inside yeah I've heard you even say like Mar should be like a leise you have to renew it every 10 years I was like only would say that I still believe that I mean my friend Sam and and Natasha and I you know talked about that we were at the uh my lake house one night and we were we were talking and it was I was my anniversary and I had been through some struggles and I had written a toast to him and part of that toast was I'm renewing the lease with an option to back out of that lease right and this was our anniversary toast and everybody thought it was hysterical but there was a lot of truth to it because the reality is this the tell death do you part piece backs us into a corner where we can't really um say what we what we need to say because what we might need to say is that we're not happy and we want out and that doesn't go along with what we signed up for so it makes us feel like a failure and no one wants to feel that way yeah so true and I wonder if you don't mind you just said oh I'm way too jealous for that that surprises me I like I'm like you seem so damn confident and so jealousy actually maybe helped me think through this I think of jealousy as being an insecurity um it's not you know I think when you when you've been through what I've been through in terms of going outside of the marriage and the Betrayal that comes along with that and the fact that it wasn't a dialogue that you know we had had prior to you know executing that's very official yeah um it it left me feeling uncomfortable and um insecure in my my interpersonal relationships with men and so you know that's something that I I've consistently have to work on that I've carried with me and I think so many women get this I don't care if you're 20 or 50 um you know at some point you will understand what it means to to be betrayed that way and it affects us on such a deep level because I think that we connect on such a deep level when we give our hearts to someone women typically it we're all in you know like once we decide to make that commitment it's like all barriers are gone any wall that we might have is gone and so when that is shattered that wall comes immediately back up and then it sort of as an adult you just begin to chip away okay got to get back to where I was so that I can be 100% trusting again because how am I going to give myself to anybody else ever again if I don't feel like I can break down that that wall and it's a lot of work I think actually as you were talking the thing that probably trips a lot of us up is I want to get back to where I was and the truth is if you've just had a heartbreaking experience you're never going to go back to where you were because you are a different human now you have had your heart broken and so I think it actually could be more powerful to go how do I use this to be better than who I was right right and and it's definitely been something that I don't think I would take back as I said had Jason and I not gone through what we went through I don't think it it's just another layer of who I am today that I'm I'm kind of proud of it's like a badge of you know I went through war and there's some injuries and you got the midle to prove it yeah but now I feel different ly about a lot of things that I couldn't have have felt differently about like this institution of marriage and relationships how I look at them now and how I want to be and how I aspire to have more a deeper connection than I had because I went through it so for me now moving forward that's all it's about um I had to have that experience um for someone like me I think to learn from it m so true and the experience um The Experience can be beautiful obviously like you said very heartbreaking in making a decision to leave was um there any shame around it from other people none whatsoever um I had a great support system um very much so my family was a great support system my friends that rallied around me were a great support system and I would say it took me the better part of 5 years to fully recover um you know now full circle moment my ex-husband is remarried I've embraced the woman that he's with um who happens to be the woman that he had an affair with um you know I didn't speak to her or meet her for the first three years of of their relationship after you know we broke up so I get her I understand why he chose her she's quite similar to me in many facets um yes she's the younger newer model however all the same things and dreams and beliefs and ideas that I had when I was her age she has and I think the work that he had to do and the reason they probably connected during our marriage was had everything to do with him not feeling big enough and full enough so we had to find that 28-year-old version of me again to make him feel big enough and important enough because I had grown and I didn't make him feel big enough anymore you know and now he now he gets it just have to take a moment holy smokes got so many questions how and it wasn't about age like I've never been like oh she's hotter younger like it's never about any of that how how how do you was that natural because here's the thing go the truth is a th% I would go oh my God I'm older oh my God I'm like I would make it about me I really would how did you not make it about you I think it's freaking beautiful I I mean I won't say in the beginning that I you know I I didn't have moments of that but I really the second I understood who she was I went oh my God this has everything to do with him this he's meeting me all over again because he required that cuz he hadn't done the work he required what I gave him in the beginning of of our relationship when I was 25 all over again because he lost that pedestal moment of the woman in his life putting him on a consistent pedestal now he's had so much growth since then and I I think he acknowledges all of that but what I don't think he still fully acknowledges is how similar her and I actually are the 28-year-old version of Tracy is very much um s not exactly but Sim very very much similarities between the two of us in terms of how we adored him and put him on a pedestal um the pedestal just chipped away and chipped away until there was not one left and that left someone who needed that in order to breathe alone so it makes sense like I get it now I know why he did what he did and that makes it a lot easier to forgive him move on and and understand but I also have a a man in you know him in my life that is doing the work to sort of understand that a little bit better and it you know we chip away at it but you know we're in a really good place and to me that feels really good I sort of feel like we're not a lot not a lot of women that have been through something similar to that can walk away from it and a few years later be having dinner with us as a family with the new wife and myself and the kids and we all know what went down and we've recovered from it and we're stronger because of it and that's I think pretty [ __ ] cool dude it's so [ __ ] cool because you could have postured oh yeah I and I did you know in my on my own Journey back to like a healthy space around it and figuring out what it was really about and and doing the work that I've done yeah but it took a minute it didn't happen overnight right but how do you how do you then greet her so the one like number 762 reasons why I freaking love you is you're such a woman's woman you're like I have women's backs I [ __ ] love that about you girl so someone who is so supportive of other women when you see a woman that has an affair with a married man you don't point the finger at her you didn't didn't say oh my God she's the [ __ ] and you're going to [ __ ] mess with me and my family you didn't at least now I'd love to hear if you didn't I did okay I definitely did I had um I I wouldn't she might say I was vindictive but no you don't mind sharing because here's the thing going like it's really important for me to say this some people will stay in that space having this tension having this friction for the rest of their lives the children grow out with a tox environment like not healthy exactly so if you don't mind being very honest and taking us through if you actually were vindictive because to your point You' even said 5 years later the fact that you guys can all have dinner together is so [ __ ] cool but I need to know how you got there like the real truth of how the [ __ ] you went from my husband's had an affair to now I'm having dinner with a woman I don't like feeling unresolved about dysfunction in my life life forever there's a period of time where I can sit with something and go I just need to sit with this for a minute and really process this and not be reactive but be fully invested in how I feel about it before I respond it took me a little longer than I care to you know say um as it comes to this marriage and and what happened between Jason and I um you know when it first went down I was I was angry um my was angry and and I would have I would have gone so far as to say he's going to do the same thing to you I I I truly believed it and I was very unhealthily tapped into like I was in a drain and I just kept going down um and In fairness I think I had to go through that I had to go through that anger phase I was vindictive I was miserably unhappy um it was it was a bizarre time in my life and then I I took space from it I didn't see them for a long time I didn't communicate with uh I I communicated with my ex-husband as it related to the children and that was kind of it and I went well this isn't working either for me I don't like this I don't like feeling like someone that I spent the better part of half my life with who I know better than his family and he knows me intimately in that sense like I can't live in this space of let's have fake communication about our children and keep it moving and I don't think that he wanted that either so I started to re-engage as did he um and there was bumps in the road you know because we had we didn't have boundaries and we had disconnected for a while so the the going from the anger to the disconnect to the re-engagement that part was was challenging because we had to now have new boundaries we're not married anymore how do we Define that like I have to have respect for your new relationship how do I get past that and once I started recognizing that that that piece of it was missing and that's why our Dynamic was the re-engagement was not going as well as either of us wanted it to that's when I finally said it's time for me to sit down with wow your partner and we P you know we picked a day and it was like five days and counting 4 days 48 Hours you know and I was ready I really wasn't nervous about it at that point I was really ready to have like a not angry conversation but a healthy conversation and we sat together for 3 hours um we had some wine we had some lunch and we just talked and you know she obviously took accountability um which I think was nice to hear but it wasn't um necessarily the most important piece of the puzzle we spoke about how can we move forward in a healthy way and sort of be the defining moment of how we all envision sort of moving forward um as a family and that was something we kind of we both agreed we wanted to be proud of like wouldn't that be cool if we could be come from a totally [ __ ] up place and then come full circle and spend holidays together enjoy each other's company support each other um be there for my children when I can't be um as their stepmom all of these things and that's what we put into the conversation I said it's going to take a minute and she agreed I said it's not like all of a sudden we're going to be you know under the tree together and then lo and behold we were this Christmas Christmas morning mimosas and you know open in presents over at their house and I had a great time but we put that out into the universe as how we sort of envisioned wouldn't it be [ __ ] cool if we could redefine what this looks like for every family that's been through what we've been through and felt like there's it's never going to be healthy again it's going to be screwed up for these kids forever I really wanted to see if we could do that and so we're doing it [ __ ] oh that's such an amazing breakdown yeah thank you so much for taking me through that and also talk about what you're freaking teaching your daughters to not be in a relationship if it doesn't work to not hold on to a grudge to to actually go through a grief but then be able to come out with uh Beauty and dignity and respect at the end is so [ __ ] powerful I have too many people in my life and I don't know if you do where they've divorced 30 years later they still can't be in the same room with each other and I have like people in my family that are adults and they're the kids and they're like oh yeah [ __ ] mom and dad are going to be in the same room today because it's my 40th birthday and it's like it's such a unhealthy way to live so shitty and it's so like again it goes back to like old traditions and like oh you obviously if you're going to get divorced like the all that'ss are off and why can't we recover properly why can't we sort of be in charge of our destiny and what a what post divorce looks like why can't and I've always wanted to talk about that and and I've been able to talk about it with a lot more honesty since coming clean about what I really went through and what we both went through as a couple and sort of the recovery of that because really the story that was told was I was a workaholic and he couldn't take take it anymore and that was that yeah that's it's way more complicated and relationships always are and you even use the word recovery and what's interesting is it wasn't like you were bullshitting recovery like cuz what I mean is like let's just do face for the kids when the kids are around we play poite but that's [ __ ] it's such [ __ ] first of all kids are the most intuitive creatures on the planet if you think that you're fooling your kids you've got it twist they see it all they know everything they know you walk in and I'm terrible at not wearing my emotions on my sleeve and even when I've done my very best to fake it like I am authentic I it like comes out of my pores right and and for the families out there that feel like they've got their kids fooled when they wake up in therapy at 20 when you finally do decide to pull the trigger after years of like a [ __ ] facade it's going to screw those kids up far more than living authentically that you're in an unhealthy relationship that's not working for either one of you and you're choosing to leave it that's how you want your kids to be in their relationships a th% and even if you don't have kids how to fully move on if you're holding something to the past I honestly don't see how you can if you've still got this like wound that you haven't healed and so um in healing it it's not even the pretend heal right or like passive aggressiveness right you could have been so damn passive aggressive and like do these Jabs right like we at the beginning of the interview you even saiding about your friend when you do the little Jabs it's like the Jabs are the thing that people don't necessarily call you on the Jabs are the things you can probably do for 10 years right and nobody everyone would like feel it but no one will actually say anything but there's no way I could think of you being able to heal that's the thing I think you know with everything there's like the what are the five steps like you have to grieve you have to it's okay okay to be angry like you got like the people that are like faking their way through all of those emotions even as it relates to business like it's okay to fail and fall on your face you should experience that loss as it exactly is and as you're experiencing it not push it down the line because that doesn't serve you that doesn't allow you to get back up again and feel stronger the I get that question all the time like you know how did you get the way I said because I fell on my face so many times cuz I did this alone I didn't really have that many people that I related to that I could look up to so every time I fell on my face I did cry and I did scream and I did have too many Tequilas because I lost the big deal and I I did have a lot of things to say about it but the truth is by virtue of experiencing that authentically then I was able to get back up and move on and I think divorce and going through a breakup or going through any sort of trauma like that is similar if you don't don't deal with the symptoms and experience the emotion of the loss and the anger and everything that goes along with it then how the hell are you going to be able to move on unfortunately you know Jason and his wife were on the receiving end of of my process but it's it's it's brought us to where we are today so I don't I wouldn't I don't think either of them and and myself I don't think we' any of us would take any of it back all right so in your growth and maybe you have and I'd really be curious to talk about this in your growth sometimes like for me I was the stay-at-home wife submissive do things for my husband and then when I went into business I went so [ __ ] hardcore the other way that my husband was like Hey you know like I kind of miss the sweetness in you and so I realized oh [ __ ] I actually have to pull back a bit because what I did is I just went really tough hardcore Alpha in every aspect of my life and so because I'd already been married I had this you know Dynamic with my husband I actually he was like look I actually really I understand why you have to be hard in business right like you're you're you're it's like you're going to war every day he's like so I totally get it but at the same time what you're doing is you're bringing that har harshness back and you've lost this sweet nurturing side of you that I loved and I was like oh actually I totally understand what he means and I did go too hard now with you and you saying you were the one that was looking up to your husband on the pedestal and over time as you started to get more powerful more strong more badass more ownership of who you are and where you want to go and you were chipping away at that sto and now you weren't looking up to him but earlier you said about your current boyfriend where you're basically the hard nut right I mean I use my own words you're the one that's the boss the [ __ ] lady we're doing this but also you're looking to him to be like but hang on a minute I want you to also handle it how are you like going to navigate the two of like you're a [ __ ] badass but actually you do want people to lead as well he naturally is a leader and I think the difference between the younger generations and the 20 I mean I'm with a 28-year-old yeah sorry I forgot to actually give context there uh but I think men in his generation are a little bit different I think they're inspired by women um like myself and I think they're and that's why you know year overy year every single year you're seeing more and more women in relationships with younger men so I think there is a different level of confidence that you know my husband's generation ex-husband's generation did not have um where and again this comes down to wage Gap equality like each generation is experiencing it differently um and obviously because I'm I'm my age you know the way I grew up it was just a gap period the end I mean I was raised in a household where my dad was the boss my mom was also a boss but at home and that was very that was very very clear and it was very black and white and I think Eric is a great example of of being a part of a generation where you know you can look up to a a woman and making money and someone that successful and be like go for it and he's always empowered me and we've been together for three years and I will say he knows when I'm falling off the ledge what do you mean by falling off the ledge whether I'm exhausted because I've worked you know four weeks in a row 80 or 90 hour weeks and I've been traveling for work and I'm coming home depleted with like nothing left to give are moments where you know for example I came home from a work trip a couple months back and there was a bath run for me a glass of wine and Sushi was already at the house like waiting and so I like came in I got in the tub and I was like you know these these are things that you know maybe financially he can't you know fly me on a private jet to another foreign country and you know give me that type of experience but by the Simplicity in what he is able to give me from an emotional standpoint and from a giving standpoint was so much more actually about me um and my well-being than it was about I'm going to be showy and take you here there buy you this handbag or send you on this trip and you know to me that's it's it's good for my soul it's it's what I need in my life to be to feel balanced I don't know if I would find that in someone my age that's fascinating I don't know if you know this but um one of the big things in relationships and knowing whether it's going to succeed or not is if the partner feels seen or not yeah I mean I I totally believe that I mean I think that's a big part of it you know I'm very supportive of his career um he works nonstop um but I think what he brings to my life and in terms of giving back and I don't think either of us ever thought that this relationship was going to be as what it was it's blossomed into something that I think neither of us had anticipated but out of that has come something so beautiful and and whether or not it's you know till death to you part or however long we make a choice to be together um the those moments are so important like he brings me back down to earth and reminds me that I need to sleep I need to take care of myself I need to do things that are good for my well-being and my health and my Wellness versus you know being out in the public eye at the right restaurants and you know having the right handbag or any of that [ __ ] which at the end of the day I see a lot of people particularly in La that are focused on all of those things did you have to face judgment when you started dating him cuz he was so much younger than you absolutely how did you deal with that I told him to eat [ __ ] true [ __ ] yeah you did I I I really I really did not give a [ __ ] I I just I just didn't and not at all even people close to you no [ __ ] yeah no I really didn't because if you know Eric and the people that know me intimately that have an actual relationship with him and made an effort to really get to know him know who he is he's a he's a deep down and Incredibly solid human being sometimes more so than you know the men that are my age and so when you have a foundation like that for like a solid human um the people that I said know us intimately are like he's a good guy now whether or not you guys end up together forever is is is not the point you're in a relationship that's much healthier than the relationships you've been been in in the past and we like this for you you're healthy you're happy you've never felt better you're rested I'm not going out all the time I'm I'm more successful I'm more productive like this is because the man in my life is there supporting me and lifting me up and and also sort of drawing a line saying I don't really think that you need to like we need to go out tonight like I think actually it would be nice if we just spent some time alone and I'm like okay great you know it's nice to kind of have that and sort of be brought back down how are you able to build trust back again from your lost relationship and now being in this new relationship honestly I I uh that's again a daily sort of stay in your body try not to go back to the trauma of what that was and trust that if it does happen again you'll make the decision that's right for you and you won't wait five years to do it right um I don't think in relationships we can ever fully trust that someone isn't going to do something outside of the bounds of what your agreement is between the two of you um how are you going to trust yourself then to hold true to that well I guess I have to find out right hopefully you don't but right but assuming that I'm presented with that scenario again there won't be uh um uh there won't be second third fourth fifth sixth chances yeah the reason why I ask is I think that that's something that a lot of people struggle with when they've been cheated on it's like wow I don't trust myself anymore I don't trust myself that I'm going to be able to spot it that I'm going to be able to leave again or that I'm not going to be able to lose myself again in a relationship to relate to that on every level I think that any woman or man that's been through that and has been truly betrayed and and really caught off guard um is a really difficult recovery process to fully trust again I don't even know if I'm a 100% there I don't know if I ever will be um but I have to try and I have to give myself to it fully and the only way to find out if you're capable of it is by virtue of experiencing it I had you say though that the Judgment always came from women yeah you know um this is an interesting topic because so for so long you know being sort of the feminist that I am I've looked at men as being the reason uh that we are not you know equal on all fronts and over the course of the last few years I've done some soul searching on that and just even looking at the women around me um women across the board on social media channels and I've recognized that you know the competitive nature between women to get to the top is one piece of the puzzle and then I also think again my generation the generation in front of me and the generation in front of that generation are all still everybody's behind their little computer on social media sitting in the dark judging I think the the younger Generations are a little bit um different uh but I think women typically are our biggest challenge today I think there's a a problem with the way that we all grew up and and it's very difficult to break out of those patterns because we were raised in that at at 47 years old for me to be who I am every single day and be this feminist it's like work I've had to like challenge myself in certain areas and be like well why can't I remember I hired here's an example I hired a new agent on my team by the name of Shelby Shelby I met in Mexico at a a 50th birthday party she's 25 or she was 25 or 26 at the time gorgeous model you know great on social media and Instagram but a model nonetheless and a couple years later she came to me and wanted to sell real estate smart girl totally has the Charisma for it but you know was the first thing I did I started saying well she's going to have to like stop modeling and doing the whole bikini thing on social media to be taken seriously and then I was like no no do you know what I'm saying like I I did the same [ __ ] thing and and by the way what up homie I got something free and new to share with you right now how often are you visited by that negative voice in your head telling you that you're not smart enough that you're not good enough experienced enough not fill in the blank one of the most powerful things you can learn to do in life is to turn that negative voice into your bestie and I want to teach you how to do that and so much more in my four steps to becoming confidence workshop and guys the most amazing thing is you can actually register for completely free for this Workshop so click the link on your screen and I see you on the inside every you know the people that surrounded me in business were like o you know she's really going to have to reel back on you know cuz she could it possibly be successful in real estate and wear a bikini now granted there's F you're not going to wear a bikini to a listing appointment but perception is everything and I said well then if I'm going to stand here and say all of the things that I'm saying about being a feminist and I should be able to wear half top and and make you know $10 million a year then I have to also get behind the women underneath me that are doing the same thing and actually Elevate them support them and make them into the little bosses that they are and that's exactly what she's doing I I said to her I even told her you know pretty much this story and I said there's no reason for you to have two separate accounts you do you and you know as long as you show up to work and give it 110% I don't care what perception of you what the perception of you is online I care that you know what you're talking about when you walk into the room that you're connected and that you are ready to talk to this client about their home and how you can best service them at the end of the day that's all that matters and she has that in Spades now if she did not have that Charisma or that ability to connect that would be a different story but she had it so the one thing that was holding her back was that she was a bikini model and not just a bikini model but you know but there were a lot of of these pictures of her online well that's [ __ ] why can't she be both and so I had to really second guess myself and remind myself that I it doesn't stop right there and I think that's a big part of where the older Generations look at some of even me they look at me and say you you can't wear that and be successful at the same time well why the hell not I'm actually currently doing it you know and I think that's part of what my new messaging is it's talking to women about really supporting each other because I think that's kind of like it's kind of [ __ ] like we say we support each other to a point but then don't don't be too feminine don't be too comfortable with your own body you're still a mom what kind of mom are you if you dress like that all of these types of comments are completely farsal when it comes to you know talking about women online and and it it it's made me absolutely banana is crazy so now that's it's like all I I want to focus on and talk about because we can't point the finger at men forever for holding each other back we have to elevate each other and be able to be all of the things that we are and that includes boobs and a butt and a pair of heels and however we feel like doing our hair and makeup that's what makes us women we have we are in completely different than men and we have to celebrate all of those differences not just how they fit into being an old version of becoming a feminist I love your energy around this I feel the same and I don't know how to talk about it because I have a freaking show called women of impact my whole life is dedicated to supporting women elevating women helping women and yet people sometimes still watch this show homie and there's people across the sea and they just in the comments rip the the woman apart or rip me apart what the hell's up with this woman's hair or like why does she talk in a squeaky voice um I had one uh guest who was a doctor she was giving advice on how women can help with their hormones and self-care right so her whole life is dedicated to helping women in their hormones and the comment is because she wore a crop top story of my life women in the freaking comments oh guys I read the comments I read the freaking comments in the comments they were like I can't take this woman seriously because she's showing her belly how can she if she wasn't showing her boobs I would take her advice more seriously and I'm like you you're the reason we are totally [ __ ] like that is the bottom line because at the end of the day if we're the ones elevating each other and call it 50 and and I'm shooting statistics out without any so 50% of us are are really truly elev ating women as a whole but the other 50% are saying I'm I'm here to elevate you if you do it the oldfashioned way I don't but outside you sound like you're smart and you have your [ __ ] together and you've done all the things and here's the list of all of your accomplishments I'm here for that so long as you do it the way I say you should do it because traditionally that's the way it was done yeah as long as you do it within my value system and that's where it's like it's so damn important me to keep talking about this sort of thing and even with the show I try to have as many diverse types of women as I possibly can because here's what I'm not saying every woman should go and have business and be a badass and crush it in work no no no no what life do you want and what the hell is holding you back I got you that's what this show is about and so even with what we're talking about today it's been about relationships it's been about business it's been about friendships but the whole point is how the hell Tracy chudah do you stand up and be a freaking like strong woman on a daily basis when you're getting all this stuff coming at you whether this stuff is other women hating on you whether it's you know you finding out that your husband's cheated on you whatever that stuff is how the hell do you keep showing up because a lot of women don't you've just shared over an hour don't knows how long of all the tactics and tips that you do that's what I want to keep focusing on right hey you at home stop writing a comment about oh my God I can't believe she dates someone that's 20 years younger why do you care and it's so damn disheartening girl it's so damn dis hting to think that because of our own belief system if it doesn't align with what you you know if what you do doesn't align with my belief system then I'm only going to tear you down why not freaking support yeah I mean I think what I find is it only inspires me to keep doing it the haters on you inspires you it only inspires me to keep having the dialogue keep dressing the way I want to dress whether that's in a crop top which I get a lot of [ __ ] for or uh you know wearing a skirt that's whatever that looks like to the women if I keep doing it they will eventually t as long as I'm as long as I'm still speaking um from the same mindset as long as I'm still successful as long as my messaging is no different eventually they'll kind of go okay well I guess she's as smart as I thought she was and I guess the the top that she's wearing is sort of irrelevant isn't it and and that's sort of my mission to continue to if I stop doing what I'm doing then that dialogue isn't had until the next woman that comes along that maybe doesn't have the balls to stand up for themselves quite yet because they're a little bit younger and so then you're always conforming and if we don't stand up and not conform to what these old ideals were then we're never going to actually change the whole system and so to me it's always going to be continue like y'all inspire me the more you talk [ __ ] the more I'm going to continue to be exactly who I am exactly say exactly what I'm thinking all of the time and just be a 100% authentic and it seems to be working so [ __ ] yeah go and I am I don't want to presume but I do feel like sometimes a lot of the hate just comes from insecurity right it's like I I wish I had the confidence to dress like that I wish I had the confidence to just say yeah I'm divorced I'm going to go after to a guy who's 20 years younger than me like and so because maybe people don't have the confidence the um the flip side is to actually say why it's wrong because now they don't you don't necessarily have to yeah I mean I think we all we all know that right like you know social media trolls it's you know they're all insecure and that's a very easy way to compartmentalize them right and so that we can move on with our day but the truth is we have to social media is how people communicate it is a big part of how we're all out there and having success that we're having and if we don't continue to have the dialogue on how to shift that narrative then we're not going we're going to continue to have sort of these internet trolls that actually are valued there's value there there's a reason these different blogs and and social media accounts are created there's a reason Bots are s you know these are things successful because people buy into it and what we don't want to see is people buying into it anymore so in order in my opinion in order to stop that [ __ ] we have to keep stepping up keep stepping out of our comfort zones continue to battle this in an effective way so that you know we change the actual Dynamic we shift their opinion and more often than not when I do have a dialogue with a troll for whatever reason not every time time but more often than not they'll say wow I just never really thought that you would actually respond to this sorry and I'm not I'm not emotionally affected by it either way but it's more of a shift of I'd rather connect with you and explain to you that the reason I will continue to do this is so that I can shift your mindset about it I'm not here to upset you I'm here to shift your mindset that I can be many many things and those things include sexiness funny and really [ __ ] smart at the same time like why can't we have all three why if why if you're smart and successful as a woman in business do you have to be one note come over it where's that um fine line between um helping them right like actually I think that if I say this maybe I'm opening a door that you haven't seen before and defending yourself I mean I think in some cases you know when they when it's tapped into my relationship with my children um I I'll I definitely have a little bit of a different messaging messaging surrounding that but my kids are also old enough to um have their own mindes on social media and like I said they're little feminists in the making and so they can speak quite eloquently um and in a way that has worked I think wonders because obviously I can also not be a good mom because I work too hard and I dress too sexy so therefore I'm setting a bad example for my girls both my girls are unbelievably successful in their own right they're good kids they get good grades they're on an incredible path of their own and they're thriving and they'll chime in when they feel like it on their own and and I can't tell you the amount of times I've read some of Juliet's responses um on social media to different people and I'm Blown Away with what she's been able to say and I think you know so are my followers candidly like wow this little 17-year-old has uh quite a bit to say and is really effective I mean God help everyone when she's 25 you know what I mean she learned the lessons from her mom yeah but that's the thing it's like really having the skills to defend yourself in certain moments or having the skill to let something roll off your back like if there's such and this is really you know beautiful full circle where we started from I find it even now sometimes difficult for myself s um and a lot of it that's why I'm actually leaning in a lot into health because I'm like if I'm just tired if I haven't eaten if I'm overwhelmed I'm way less likely to let something roll off my back and then like defend myself if someone comes at me like come at me bro right like I'm more likely to do that on days that I'm not feeling great and exhausted versus on days that I'm feeling confident because I've had great sleep I've had a great day whatever like in those moments I'm more likely to let it roll off my back yeah I mean I I couldn't agree with you more um because this has now become more recently a mission of mine I'm conscious of that so despite how I'm feeling that day I'll really try to shift and beginning a shift in how I how I react to these types of comments because my my bigger goal is to sort of have women realize that by we're holding ourselves back yeah by doing this to each other um we're our we should be our biggest Advocates not the reason that we're still not there yeah and even in what you were just saying it's like if someone said I can't take you seriously because you wear heels and you wear low cut tops versus you can't be a good mom because you wear heels and low cut tops I assume that the impact it has on you to your point of like when it's to my kids obviously they're older now but when they were young did you have more of that like protection like okay now you've actually triggered the thing inside me that's not going to I can't let this roll off my back yeah of course I mean they're my babies and you know I feel very responsible uh along with Jason for the women that they're becoming and and you know when your kids become teenagers it's like a whole different world like you're lucky enough to be graced by their presence they have ideas of their own they have their own thoughts thoughts they you know you're like old and they have their own vision of how they want their life to be now I could either take that and be offended by it but honestly I embrace that in them and so when they were younger these types of comments would get at me a little bit more but now because they follow me so closely in my business and and really what I am all about is women empowering other women they're like my little empowerment chicks so Scarlet a little bit less so and again she's only 14 but Juliet's like 17 going on like 30 she's just like listen here's how I'm going to put it to you ladies and she'll you know chime in on her own and and that sort of affirms that without me having to say it that the little women that I have raised I've raised really well and they're making good decisions they know how to speak on behalf of themselves they know how to elevate themselves and they know how to be heard um and that to me is is the job speaks for itself I don't have to defend it I love that but because I don't have children like the mama bear effect is very fascinating to me because every time I hear about pretty much any badass powerful woman it's always just like well I kind of let things slide off my back if people are insulting me if people are doing this to me like we always kind of let the things go when it's happening to you but when it happens to someone in your life or someone you really care about like I can't even remember the stats I'm going to pull something out of my ass right now but it's something like 70% of women are more likely to fight for their colleagues pay raise than their own pay raise um because you're more likely as a woman to advocate for someone else over yourself what would you suggest if you weren't a mother of like or in fact anybody of how we start to actually advocate for ourselves first right I mean it's so true I was watching this Korean new show like you guys got it's called glory and it's about it's it's obviously in South Korea but it it's about a young girl who was bullied by some high school students and she spends the better part of 20 years coming back for revenge is really good but there's this instinctual thing I think that happens with women and I don't know maybe not for every woman but for me since I was a kid if there is an underdog I am their protector if there is someone that isn't getting paid equally then I'm coming to bat for them like I've just always been that way and I used to attribute it to just being a woman and that's part of just like our makeup and who we are but um I definitely have not advocated for myself early enough as a young you know entrepreneur coming into business it took me until now to finally start beginning to you know advocate for myself in the last call it eight years of my career but the first 15 years of my career I spent advocating for everyone else M and and that's just the truth um and so you know again the reason why I wrote the book um and the re and you and I had talked about this before I really wanted young women to connect to it because I didn't have that book or that Mentor that I understood or that I related to because you know they said [ __ ] every so often often I was like oh they make mistakes they're not just polished 100% of the time they speak with authenticity I didn't really have anyone to look up to Growing Up So I fell on my face 150 times and had to figure out how to get back up and and become successful I don't want the 20-some things of the world to to have to go through what I went through like we can cut that in half by you know talking to each other supporting each other advocating for each other and for ourselves starting you know outside of college or even outside of high school um rather than when you're 38 click here right now to break your nice goale habits master your confidence and enter your bad [ __ ] era the future of if I continue to go down this road if I gain twice the weight if I get arrested twice the times right if I have twice the bad friends like what my life looks like it was unacceptable to me I don't want

Channel: Lisa Bilyeu

Views: 621,098

Keywords: women of impact, woman of impact, lisa bilyeu, tom bilyeu, impact theory, quest nutrition, motivation, inspiration

Id: rY5e2B_75Gc

Length: 153min 50sec (9230 seconds)

Published: Wed Feb 21 2024