The Covert Passive Aggressive Narcissist, Featuring Debbie Mirza

foreign [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] healthy you know that I like to bring in different and unique people to discuss the issue of narcissism here on our surviving narcissism podcast and today I have an author and somebody that I've been looking forward to interviewing because of not only the content but I've been looking at some of her things online and she's very articulate in the way that she likes to express herself so I think we're going to get some some good information from Debbie Mirza Debbie first of all you're up there in the Portland area or actually on the the border between Washington and Oregon actually on the Washington side there the Columbia River I guess it is but uh welcome to uh to our podcast and I'm so pleased to have you oh thank you so much it's a treat to be here I'm honored well now as I mentioned you're an author and that sounds like you're a busy author too I know you're working on some projects but you have a book that caught our attention with my staff here on our Channel called the covert passive aggressive narcissist and and then you also have another one and I love the topic and the title the other book you've got is called worthy of love and we were talking briefly before we came on the year about how that's just such a necessary thing for people as they're trying to reclaim their life after being influenced by somebody that's very difficult first of all talk with me about just the fact that you wrote the book what what compelled you to do that and what are you hoping to accomplish by getting that out in the Public's hands yeah I'm so happy it's out there I basically wrote the book that I needed many years ago and didn't exist um I had gotten out of a very long relationship I had not seen any kind of abuse at all and someone in my life had said um it sounds like you're with a covert well the first person said it sounds like you're with a narcissist which really shocked me I didn't know anything about narcissism and she said I suggest you get a hold of a lot of information because you need to get know what you're dealing with and um and that was during the discard phase of the relationship so that was my introduction to narcissism I went and got all these books and watched all these YouTube videos like everybody does read a bunch of articles and it was kind of like okay I see some things I see the rage I see you know certain things that I was Finding but it wasn't the full picture a lot of when I because it was discussing an overt narcissist um and the person I was with was a really nice guy you know and someone everybody loved yeah yeah definitely and someone really chill and relaxed and it was it had been what felt like an easy relationship um for me and for so many years I felt so lucky you know to be with him and my friends loved him and my family loved him so a lot of the narcissist explanations I was like okay well this fits but this I'm not sure so I but there was enough to keep me going so that I deep dove into the subject because it was I was so confused and in so much pain um like all of us who go through this and I ended up talking to a lot of therapists and a lot of coaches and it was one coach I spoke with that said he sounds like a covert passive aggressive narcissist and they're the most difficult to recognize and those words were like the puzzle pieces I've been missing oh yeah you know where it's like every hair stands on end because your body knows the truth you know when you hear it so that launched me into really years of studying it and doing my own healing and it was because of the um I got a really abuse well you know as people know or maybe they don't with a covert narcissist once the relationship is over it's not over for them they're still a target of your rage they still want to punish you you know um so the abuse kept happening as I was learning boundaries and I was you know understanding more so I received a really abusive email one day and this one pushed me over the edge and you know it had been a build up of so many years of just so much emotional and psychological abuse and I kind of for a few days just went almost I would say catatonic I just didn't speak for three days you just hit that place of numbness you know you you just your body it just feels like I've hit my limit you know and by the third day of this I my sadness and my grief and my confusion started turning to anger because I Knew by this time I wasn't the only one going through this I'd been to support groups and things and it just kind of felt I honestly was laying in bed and my eyes were closed and it was literally like a it felt like an invitation almost like a vision where I saw a cover of a book with all capital letters that said the covert passive aggressive narcissist and it felt like almost like would you do this you know like it it had your name on it literally well it does now yeah no it does yeah yeah yeah and I knew myself if I really dedicate myself to something it's all consuming so I After Time decided yes I'm ready to write this I want to write the book that doesn't exist that I needed and I know so many other people needed it was just like I reached a place of like enough this is enough this needs to be wiped from the world and be done you know no one should yeah deal with it you know Debbie uh it's it's so good to hear you talk about your own personal experience and uh the fact that you have educated yourself in a way now that you want to help others be educated uh you wouldn't know but my I began my career many moons ago uh doing a lot of anger workshops and I I don't really tell everybody this but here I am seeing it right now that a lot of my inclination toward that kind of been was the fact that in the Carter family the members just mean uh my own father talked about how he was so afraid of his grandfather that he didn't want to be around him when he was a little kid and and so they stayed away and his father had moved away and uh from one uh town to another just to get away from it but my grandfather was also mean and my father had his issues and then I have to take a look at myself it's like well that's the protein that I come from and and I've got to be aware of my Tendencies too and so yeah that became a part of my study and all like that and then going into your space the the more I would do these uh workshops and then we would be talking about uh ingredients like yeah angry people tend to be very controlling they tend to be very fear-based very defensive they tend not to have good empathy they tend to be manipulators and exploitive and then they want to be superior which is why they pound you into the ground you've got to be beneath them and it's like wait a minute I'm talking about narcissism here and so that's when I started moving more and more into that kind of space and so it sounds as though you came about it from a different angle but you can see that there's a fusion in there between the narcissistic tendency and the anger but then when we're talking about the covert then the anger by definition is probably going to be more covert which takes us into the passive aggressive and so it's it's fascinating how you know our own personal Journeys can can go take us into these places where hopefully some understanding opens up to us and that's where that's apparently you're coming from uh yeah I mean when you say when you use the term covert narcissism now obviously I know a few things about that myself but when you talk about the covert narcissist what are some of the distinguishing characters or characteristics uh that you would say well we we would need to watch for as we look for that pattern yeah so the traits are the exact same as an overt narcissist but they manifest they show up in a really covert subtle way so oftentimes people can be with a covert narcissist for years and many times decades and have no idea that they've experienced abuse because it's so hidden so it can be like you know one interesting um characteristic or dynamic that happens with them is every birthday every holiday any special day to you is always ruined but it's not ruined or sabotaged in a very obvious way like I remember you know for myself every year every birthday I would end up in tears but it wasn't like you know no one he wasn't yelling at me wasn't hitting me wasn't doing anything physical or overt but it would be though his reactions and the and the way he would speak to me you know by the end of the night I felt like I was never grateful enough you know I was too picky I was to this I was to that I was not enough this and I ended up taking care of him and apologizing for things I didn't obviously he had an agenda for you and you're supposed to like this or feel this or act this way and have these priorities and then when you more or less implied but that's not where I am and it uh it's what we were referred to as victim shaming well there's something wrong with you then and so the reversal is there and uh why are you so difficult why are you so uh ungrateful that kind of thing and so yeah but that's control and people not being as sophisticated uh in terms of understanding this don't see it right away but once you see it then you can't unsee it so these are individuals who have their control agenda but then they can do it without the screening and the shouting and the cursing and the name calling and all of that but nonetheless uh in fact as you implied uh it's even more effective if we want to use that in that kind of terminal so yeah you walk away thinking well maybe there is something wrong with me and he would walk away thinking mission accomplished yeah yeah and the main thing with the with the narcissist any narcissist over it or covert is there's such energy vampires the the focus needs to be on them and so the way the covert person will do it is they will manipulate through emotions you know or they will manipulate in ways like that making me think I was to this or to that or not enough this or that um and so the day that was supposed to be about me or if it's Mother's Day or Father's Day you know the the day that's supposed to be about you becomes about them yes you know I talked to a woman who as an example um her brother had passed away a year prior and it was the anniversary of of his passing so this was a big day for her she was going to be emotional feeling a lot so her boyfriend also not in that day became very depressed just out of the blue no reason and it sucks all the energy out of the room and puts it right here yeah because he knows I mean the thing is with covert narcissists a lot of targets the people that get with them are very nurturing caring people and so if we see someone that we love feeling sad or you know going through something we will put all our energy into them so that's a way that's a trait that that covert narcissists use against us because they know that that will happen and so then our energy gets put on them so that's that's the thing that happens often with them I know that we have listeners and viewers here right now they're thinking oh so in other words these people are looking at some of your better characteristics like your tenderness or your willingness to get along and that's going to work against me if I'm that kind of a person and and we want to remind people no it's this is not about you uh you're you're being played you just don't know it yet because that's the nature of covert narcissism but they're picking up on that and it's like I think I can use this to my advantage there's another thing I I want you were kind of implying this but um one of the things with the covert narcissist um with narcissism in general they can be very condescending and haughty but the covert is not going to be as uh grandiose about that what do you notice about the covert person that uh that uh would reveal that they do in fact have that condescending and haughty attitude yeah it is so covert and so it's more in their actions often than words you know like um and it does come out I will say like during the discard phase the Final Phase whether you're breaking up with them are they breaking up with you or ending the relationship their mask does start to slip a little more and they do become a little more overt so you'll see you know I've talked to attorneys divorce attorneys who say like they just don't believe the law applies to them you know that's the hottie I'm above even the law and so that'll come out different if they're an over you know they might like break the law but a covert will want to be liked their reputation is everything to them so they will always yeah so they want the attorneys to like them they want the judge to like them they want everyone to like them and so they will learn I mean they're very crafty they're to me almost like a more intelligent version of over narcissist you know not to give them cred but but also to say that to P survivors a lot of people have a lot of um they'll feel a lot of guilt and shame for not seeing it and I think I want to say to them don't ever blame yourself because this is highly intelligent ways of manipulation and control and the smartest I've talked to many therapists who were with a covert narcissist for over 20 years and never saw it so know that they it's just so crafty there's a reason you didn't see it yeah yeah and that's so that's such an important distinction too because part of their stick if you will is uh I'm a very selfish person but I'm not going to let you know that and so I'm going to think that I'm the exact opposite so they can actually uh uh go into you know the a version of their own love bombing or kindness or helpfulness and getting and goodness what you don't know when you're in the receiving end of that in the moment is there's always a hook on the backside of it now that'll show up later on yeah and it can come across and this is the this is the subtle haughtiness that you were talking about is there's a lot of teaching that goes on where they The Narcissist will let you know that they know more than you how you should live your life and who you should be but it's subtle well I don't know that you need very subtle so like for instance a mother might say to her daughter I know I know you want to start your own business but I just worry you know because so it can come across like they care but she'll say I just worry because you know I've just seen a lot of things in your life you haven't really followed through and it's all understandable and you're really capable but I'm just worried that you don't have enough energy for this or you know you really need to be a dynamic person and you know you don't really have that as your personality but I'm just looking out for you you know what I mean oh the uh the the old I'm just trying to help I'm just trying to help and so especially when it's a parent it's like so confusing because you have experienced love from them because covert narcissists aren't always mean or we would leave them a lot sooner you know we'll get like love notes from them and a mom will hold you and you'll feel safe at times or or a dad you know um but then they'll so when they say things like that you have this impression and visual of this is my mom she loves me and so you end up leaving feeling completely disempowered and questioning what are you even thinking about starting your business you don't have what it takes and completely unaware that you just got eviscerated yeah yeah that that's not and and you know like we were talking about before it's like the opposite of narcissism is love you know so a lot of things is it that's helpful to see like even with the birthday example well you know when you're caught up in like oh did I not thank them enough maybe I am like you know too picky or you know whatever but if you really think about how do you love someone you know if I'm celebrating my kid's birthday or my friend's birthday you know I want them to feel so much love I want them to feel like they are appreciated this is their special day I want it to be all about them and I would be destroyed if they were crying at the end of the day feeling like they did something wrong narcissist this just proves hey why I need to be in charge and B why you're such a dysregulated person yeah I want to get into that passive aggressive part too we've got the covert uh form of control and low empathy you just don't see it right away but then when we talk about passive aggressiveness we we want to zero in on that word aggressive there's an aggressive element here which is their anger but again they may not rage and scream and all of that um so where do you see the covert narcissist being inclined going towards anger but in that passive form of communicating their anger I think they're inclined to the passive Forum because again they they are all about their reputation so they don't want to be the person that yells and looks bad you know and I do want to say because people can get confused sometimes it's like oh I must not be with a covert narcissist but someone can be because he did or she did yell um there's a spectrum you know between over and covert and some people can be right in the middle and they can have both traits yes yeah and then the extreme coverts won't yell you know they won't call you names maybe towards the end that's when when their masks start slipping but they're inclined to the passive aggressive way of punishing you and attacking you demeaning you because no one can see through it you know so a a big thing for them is the silent treatment okay you know um I remember a time where I had um well I I got into flipping homes you know where I had bought I had used part of our savings to put into this house and I fixed it up and I did an amazing job and right then was 2008. so when I went to sell it all the well that's when the the real estate market was not doing really well here in the in the states yeah exactly so I ended up losing money and I felt such guilt I felt so bad like I took our family's money and I did this you know so instead of you know and it's natural for the person I was with to feel like oh man something about that you know but what I was the recipient of was the silent treatment so it wasn't like he was yelling I can't believe you did that you're an awful person you know whatever but for weeks silent treatment and it's so devastating you know and the opposite would have been and this is where it's so healing you know when when you experience love after this you you get a picture of like oh it could have been like that you know I I was with uh I dated a guy later and I was telling him the story and just his reaction was just so healing because he said you know if I would have been with you when you did that I would have said all right this is a hit we're gonna take it's okay you have now learned and after that I never flipped a home again because I was just so devastated and and so my friend said um at the time he said I would have said okay well now you've learned a lot you've done two homes like this so go out and do another one because you're so much smarter now and this time you're going to succeed you know that's the empowerment and the wisdom of love you know recently um I I was designated to go get some food for lunch but between my for my wife and me and so I went and uh you know she told me what she wanted she wanted some tortilla soup and so I went to the restaurant picked it up and uh the lady said okay tortilla soup right here got home and it wasn't tortilla soup it was tacos and uh guess what we eat here in Texas and so I opened it up it's like they gave me the wrong order and she just laughed and said you know that happens don't worry about it and it's a little and I said well do you want me to go back and get you something different she said no I'll take care of this that's not a problem well it's a small illustration much smaller than yours but the bottom line is something didn't go right healthy individuals will say I kind of like this other man that you talked to well why don't we talk about it what's the lesson learned or in my wife's case well that didn't go well now don't you know sometimes that happens but that covert passive aggressive person is thinking you you're messing with me aren't you and uh your presence in my life is a negative and there you go again proving how that's so and so that's that's their starting point now they want to be known as kind and helpful and loving but when it comes to dealing with all of these many possibilities of humanity showing up or in your case uh you didn't foresee the uh the the the downturn in the housing market uh like oh I don't know um you know tens of millions of other people uh we're not going to turn it into something learning uh we're just going to turn it into a reason to condemn and that's not haughtiness that's there as if he never made a mistake like that so unless I'm hearing my phone ring should we like pause or yeah okay just keep going we're just gonna this is great this is real life okay we actually have a landline every Shuffle landline I know first time of year I used to know what those things were okay so we're just gonna keep on going yeah there's another part that goes along with the uh the covert passive aggressive narcissism and that's entitlement but again it's not the uh the big grand entrance and all of that but as you're talking I'm picking up on the fact that yeah uh there's kind of a what are you gonna do for me now uh what's what's in this for me down the road and but again uh they don't necessarily put in those words where do you see that attitude of entitlement and then uh accompanying that the exploitedness and the manipulation that might go along with that yeah and I was thinking tying all that in together and what we're just saying is um a main thing that we don't notice with a covert narcissist and a regular you know over is we are not in their lives for love and connection and Harmony we are there to fill something in them you know so basically without us knowing it during the love bombing stage we were being interviewed it's almost as if they are the casting director and they're having people in a gathering going on not really I want to throw you down at the Heart level but I'm I'm gathering data that's right that's right because there are certain things I want from you and I want to see if you have those things a lot of times they'll even test you you know uh in in different covert ways to see like will you allow me to do this you know kind of pushing the envelope you know how patient are you how loving are you will you you know give everything for me and so that's where we get so confused because we want Harmony and connection and so there's this entitlement just even in that like I am the king or the queen you know of this Kingdom and you are here to serve a purpose you're not here for me to love you and for me to receive your love and So based on your utility to me yeah and that's another reason why as soon as that ends they're with someone else yeah you know they're so I say in worthy of love like you weren't replaced because that's so painful to feel how easily replaced we are you were just recast you know yeah your role there's kind of a backwards compliment when they finally determine uh you're not good for me it's like well if if me having to play the role of the Lackey is what you're looking for then thank you for noticing that I don't want to do that anymore that's right yeah and that's where sometimes the the relationship disintegrates when you start becoming Stronger Yeah because you're of no use to a narcissist when you're becoming Stronger Yeah Debbie I know that you've run across people who answer this question of you and so I'm curious to get your reaction to this people can just throw up their hands and say how did I get mixed up with all of this I mean how was it that I became vulnerable to this kind of manipulation what was it in me that made me susceptible how do you respond to that I see it as a as a as a a couple things um usually there's something in our childhood that set us up for this and maybe it looked just you know it can be many things it could be that you were raised by an overt narcissist and then you meet this no oh covert narcissist and you're so relieved there's a lack of the yelling or there's a lack of the grandiosity so okay this must be good right but you were raised with a narcissist so then you learned that dance you learned your role with a narcissist you learned that this was all about them you learned of yourself you learned that you weren't worthy of of uh respect or boundaries you know without having this be like you know conscious um consciously aware of it um and so that so then when you get with you know when you date someone as or when you make friends or whatever you're kind of set up with this Paradigm and belief of your role in relationships so that's a big reason um that often happens and then you know sometimes I remember talking to one woman who's like I had a good childhood you can still have a good childhood and maybe there were just certain things that were unhealthy about your parents you know not their fault but they got stuff from their parents and then that those little things can you know maybe like for instance I had such an incredibly loving mom but she didn't have boundaries and she didn't have a lot of things that that set me up you know for um relationships I ended up getting in later so it wasn't like she was controlling or manipulative or anything like that but it was kind of like what I learned personally is a woman's place you know kind of from her yeah which is not but that's well and the sad thing is uh many of the ingredients that can get you in trouble with that narcissistic person are in and of themselves very helpful you know what you're talking about is being cooperative or being willing to hear someone else or flexible and all of that and the narcissists think oh this is good you know there's a subtlety that I pick up on now I'll teach people sometimes about you know this is what boundaries looks like and let's go into that and figure out what this means or this is what assertiveness looks like and then people can come back let's say a week later they'd come to my therapy office and they'd say well I tried that boundary stuff and it just didn't work and uh what they mean is that other person got mad or that other person thought it was stupid and so that being the case it didn't word and that gives us an insight into the one trying to set the boundaries because they can't we all get along and can't we just have this coordination uh boundaries and assertiveness can work in the sense that you're standing up for yourself and you're holding firm to what you know is wise and best and if the other person doesn't like it well it still works if you're being true to what you know is wise and best and if you're trying to do it as cleanly as possible and that's a distinction that I think so many uh Pleasant and friendly and pleasing people have to come to terms with you don't have to have their concurrence to say well nonetheless once I figured out what's going on I still need to stay enough for myself and if you don't like it I still need to stand up for myself yeah yeah and I think oftentimes people who don't like your boundaries are oftentimes people who don't have their own boundaries and so it rubs them the wrong way and right and I think for a lot of us just genuinely kind people that you know it's also like a form of protection for us that we learned as as kids like we knew let's say we had a narcissistic Mom or Dad we knew that our kindness or our maybe you were a really humorous person I've heard comedians say this a lot like you know their comedy they would see their mom cheer up you know or that would get me off the hook yeah and or when you're the kind person in your family you know then maybe you got more special treatment and so we learned that to get love and to keep love we need to be kind or we need to be funny or we need to you know whatever it is and so we can stay in relationships like this because we're because we're still playing that belief out you know that we need to always be kind or I'm going to lose this person or so it's very and it's genuinely uncomfortable like someone like me I'm genuinely kind it's not something I have to try to believe that it's just yeah and and so for me to stand up to someone is so or be confrontational is so uncomfortable yeah I can't I ever I can't stand every any second of it you know I just want Harmony and love and so it's also when we have someone treating us so badly it's so uncomfortable to stand up and and there's also like so much in that that's tied into our value too you know so yeah a lot of reasons as you're talking I can go back down about 16 different paths on this one this is a really large topic isn't it and uh again I'm going to say to our audience uh Debbie Mirza is uh the author of the book The passive aggressive covert narcissist and there are so many layers to this and uh Debbie thank you so much for writing the book and thanks for being here with us I you know I tell you what we're going to need to do uh since I've got a I had multiple questions written down and I got through about four of them uh so I've got more to do we just may have to try this again at another point in this add to it okay I know you've got more writing on the horizon so uh I want to pick your brain more in terms of what you have going on um Team healthy know that uh when you think well maybe I'm the crazy one don't let yourself just lay down and get walked on with that right Debbie uh we're we're wanting to say you know trust yourself listen to your gut it if particularly if you're starting to see some of these invalidations that are coming those are the clues that says you know that's no way to to move forward in a healthy relationship what does this mean what does this mean for me and listen to yourself and because the covert narcissist they're all about you know prettying things up according of course uh it'll be to their benefit uh honesty and and full self-disclosure is not their strong suit so we need to listen to who now who we are and what we're saying and we need to believe what we're seeing too right any parting words that you want to share with us before we wrap up here yeah just to add to that that that is the key when people you know ask me what can I do to safeguard myself in the future from people like this and one is learn the traits but also really learn to trust your body because that's the thing with the covert it's not obvious but our bodies always feel it yeah stomach Titans our head feels unclear you know and so trust yourself incredibly and that's a journey too the old saying the body keeps score yeah it definitely does yeah what a delightful person you are daddy and I'm so glad that you've joined us here on our surviving narcissism Channel and like I said I really do want to have you back okay and uh best wishes to you and your continued writing and uh thank you you're such an articulate person so thank you for all that you've shared with us here today oh thank you okay bye team healthy uh she can be found there at debbiemerza.com and I hope you'll uh go and look her up I think you're going to find some good materials there bye now [Music]

Channel: Surviving Narcissism

Views: 143,844

Keywords: covert narcissist, anger, passive aggressive, gaslighting, Dr. Les Carter, psychology, narcissism in relationships, NPD

Id: iB6fN2d94Lo

Length: 36min 34sec (2194 seconds)

Published: Tue Oct 24 2023