Coercive Control And Domestic Abuse, featuring Dr. Christine Cocchiola

[Music] [Applause] [Music] well hey team healthy I have a special treat for us here today you know that I like to find people who are speaking into all sort sorts of issues on our topic of narcissism and there are so many different dimensions that we watch for today I have all the way from the state of Connecticut the Dr Christine coola and uh I'm so pleased Dr coola Dr C one Dr C to another uh that you're with us here and tell us about what you do you're uh you're uh you do a lot of teaching you do a lot of writing and Consulting in the whole issue of domestic abuse and uh and domestic violence and then specifically related obviously to the topic of narcissism so tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do and what kind of things uh you have going on in your world thank you Dr C for having me here today I'm so honored to be in your presence honestly um thank you so much so yeah I mean I started off doing this work at the age of 19 as a social justice Advocate I've been a domestic abuse sexual assault crisis and child abuse interventionist my entire career um but I did not know that I was in an abusive relationship and it's interesting because you know I teach on this topic every single semester in my college Social Work classes and I I just didn't see the signs and I think that's because we often look through the violent incident model we're looking for physical violence to determine if somebody is a victim of abuse or not and the reality is is that abuse is about power and control it's about power over having you know power and control over somebody and diminishing them and um so yeah so that's what brought me to this work but again I've been doing it my entire career I just didn't realize I was a victim let's I mean that's the reality I didn't realize that I had suffered the same exact abuse that I was helping people in their own lives with I'm a licensed clinical social worker have been doing therapy for years with people helping them navigate their relationships yet didn't realize what I was experiencing in my own home you know obviously as one therapist to another yeah every decade that goes by you just learn a little bit more don't you uh I can look back when I was in my 20s and actually I I I actually thought I knew pretty much everything and uh I I didn't know a whole lot of what I didn't know and and each decade goes by you get layers upon layers of your learning that uh that come about and um much of what we do is an extension of what we've experienced in our own personal lives we're human too and so I frankly I think it's great that you're willing to step in and say you know I've I've been somebody who's been there done that and then what it does is it just magnifies your commitment to understanding this in the fullest kind of way um so um let let's go into that term coercive control um you you talk about um how domestic abuse is all about dominance and control and power uh so when you use that term Co of control what are you what are you watching for yeah so I I like I think of course of control as a foundation of virtually every kind of abuse when we think about people engaged in Cults when we think about people who oppress groups of people like you know racism sexism Etc it's about having power over someone when it happens behind closed doors in somebody's house it's intimate partner abuse or domestic abuse right and so it's about one person exerting this power and control over another diminishing their autonomy or their agency consistently pushing boundaries so that someone almost in some ways begins to forget who they really are anymore and um so it's certainly the psychological tactics that are used like gaslighting and manipulation and intimidation and isolation but what we know really clearly is it's the foundation of all domestic abuse and in that when people leave the relationship it intensifies because you know so well the the character traits of a narcissist right that that when someone has decided to disengage there's more anger right and there's a need for revenge and so that how dare you exactly and so that really plays over into the legal system financially it impacts people it impacts people certainly with the weaponization of children in the process so it's like a it's it's like it permeates every aspect of someone's life while they're living in it but then when they leave it's even more so intensified um so very re very recently I spoke with a woman who she had been divorced very recently after like a 30 40 year marriage and one of the things she was saying was well we have all the court papers sign we have all of the the documentation it's it's there it's delivered but now he won't work with the financial people and uh apparently he's taking money and put it into a different account and and just exactly what you're saying so it's like can't this thing just be over and I guess you're saying it it can be the gift that keeps on giving in that proverbial sense yeah Escape is elusive I like to say and you know you started off with saying that I'm sharing a little bit of my story the reason why I share is because how many people share their stories and they're so unbelievable you know this these stories are so unbelievable that it's hard for people to actually believe that someone could actually behave this harmful to another human being and then it's someone you love right like someone you love is treating you this way so even the most astute of us missed the signs well one one of the things I'm kind of picking up on what you're talking about in your situation is there must have been a lot of the passive aggressive forms of anger in fact years ago U there was a magazine that asked me to write an article on the passive aggressive person and so I entitled it the passive aggressive always wins and I mean just the title kind of says so much of what we need to know um how can coercive control Dove tail with passive aggressive tendencies what do you notice there yeah I mean I think that in general Co of controllers do not want to so what I say is not all like narcissists or Co of controllers but all Co of controllers have this pathology of narcissism right in that it's about manipulating other people and leveling up it's about creating one person who always has power over even if they're allowing the other person to think like they have more power right it's about again the significant manipulation in the relationship Dynamics so it might be in front of say a parent your mom she's such a good cook but then behind her back saying something like it's too bad your mom doesn't cook your favorite foods anymore yeah yeah so and just one of the things you mentioned right there at the beginning too is that they they'll diminish you and Elevate themselves in the process um what would be some examples of things that you've seen with the people that you've worked with and consulted with that would be indicators of that yeah yeah so um I think one of what we know about these people is they tend to get everybody involved in their false narrative right so that's that whole concept of darvo like they deny what they've done they attack and they reverse victim and offender so often times these abusers are going to be victims to their children oh your mom left us and she took all the family's money or your mother never really loved us right so it's about imploring this sympathy from a child by the way which is just so like un unhealthy right but also doing it with everyone else in the world you know they'll reach out to pediatricians and to the school personnel and act like they're so forlorn and overwhelmed by the loss of the relationship when actually they're the cause of the loss of the relationship and they will deny and reverse the victim and the offender they are the offender yeah yeah would would you because I've used the darvo by myself before would you just go over that real quickly again so our our audience can understand what we're what we're talking about D RV o d a RV o Jennifer fried came up with the concept back in the early 90s 97 what is really remarkable about the concept is that she came up with it in relationship to children who are child abuse victims and how often when they would finally disclose the abuser would actually blame the child and it would shut down the child the child was no longer disclosed right really heartbreaking and so now we're applying it and we're seeing that this happens all the time in the judicial system where these perpetrators will claim that they are victim instead of actually and and then what happens is they're believed because you know sadly um there's a world of believing certain people over certain people you know I mean it's just the way the system works we don't always believe victims um yeah and then particular if you can get a person that's especially charming and all like that it just is all the more okay um now one of the things and by the way you would have no way of knowing this but I did some volunteer work for a women's shelter for about six or seven years cooking breakfast and stuff like that thoroughly enjoyed doing it um but one of the things that uh that we know when we enter into that space and and women have been on the receiving end of the abuse is um there tends to be a lot of isolation that happens now uh again sometimes it's very blatant and obvious and other times it's more subtle um what do you noticed along the lines with respect to that abuser isolating the one who's being U being victimized sure so I think that's a that's a significant strategy that's used and it's going to be something that's used in again like maybe this passive aggressive way right like oh you don't want to really go out with your friends don't you miss me a lot or or maybe something like I heard your friends talking about you last time we were together I don't think that they're as close to you as you think they are so diminishing those relationships and creating the space for the victim to be more and more alone I think it's really important to highlight this though and that is that we have this idea in our head that people who become victims of coercive control of narcissistic abuse are people who maybe are living in situations where they're not educated where they maybe don't have you know a wonderful career and what I hear over and over again Dr C is that frankly these are people who are highly successful in their lives who have wonderful careers who have robust lives outside of the family system but they don't have it in the family system and and thankfully they do have that but I guess the point is is that this can happen to anyone this is not like just people who are living in poverty or we used to have that view it had to be physically violent it had to be lived in poverty you were uneducated that is not true it happens across as Dr Evan Stark States who actually propelled the term it happens across time and space in an individual's life it doesn't just end when the relationship ends it continues and it happens across all of your spaces and so um these people are extremely Adept at creating isolation even if someone has a full life at work they are extremely Adept at doing it yeah and and the isolation may not always be physical isolation sometimes it is but what I'm hearing you say is sometimes it can be far more subtle than that isolation in the sense that you you you train that person not to trust other people you know well your sister told me or uh you think this person's your friend but and and so there's there's put that's the gaslighting of course they put doubt in your mind and then it it disrupts the connection that you have with other individuals right the idea is to diminish your connections so that you feel less in control and if you feel less in control then the who has the control the coercive controller has more control over you and that's the goal as you know one one of the things that I notice I mean it's just pretty close to 100% when when you have that coercive controlling person uh they they have in their minds what I refer to as the agenda capital T capital A the agenda there's a certain way things are supposed to be and and I have a term for that I call it imperative thinking um and the implication is um I I need you to start filtering your way of thinking through my agenda uh no that's not the way it was or you didn't read that correctly or you didn't do this right because it's supposed to be this and it shouldn't have been that um when you talk with individuals who are on the receiving end of that how significant of a factor would you say that is oh gosh I would say that's so significant one of my my um major I know you'll appreciate this but I use schema Theory a lot and when I'm working with clients the schema Theory and this idea of most victims and survivors you know are suffering from significant subjugation right and in that they are no longer able to actually um see clearly where their boundaries are where someone begins and where someone ends and to your point that is exactly what this coer of control or narcissistic abuse wants this this person wants people to have a lot of self-doubt and to question themselves and to be continually trying to fix or make things better in the relationship because if I can accuse you of the relationship not being stable if I can say it's because of you and you're a person who wants to you're subjugated and you want very much to accommodate you're just going to work harder you're just going to keep working harder and I I see this often times with children so I don't like to say that protective parents Gaslight their children but in reality if you're living in a very toxic environment you as a protective parent are going to want your kids to think everything's okay even if it's not okay so as you know gaslighting has a malicious intent I call it intuition disintegration we almost the course of controller's goal is to make you not feel your intuition is to not have a great way of putting it yeah and then what they what we do as protective parents is we almost disintegrate our children's intuition because we're also pretending everything's okay we're trying to walk around on eggshells making sure everybody's happy and in that the children think things are okay even if their body is telling them otherwise and then we wonder why children don't get it why they don't see it clearly because we have been participating in that disintegration of their intuition not malicious at all we've been doing that is such a necessary Insight um okay so let let's say you're the mom and more often than not I guess it's going to be the mom uh in this role um and you know that the kids are struggling because they're trying to come to terms with you know what's going on with Dad and what's going on with Mom and why do they not get along and why am I feeling so confused how direct should you be uh in of course obviously it a lot hinges on the age I mean you talk differently to a six-year-old than you do to a 17-year-old but uh what are your thoughts there so I think it's very tricky to your point especially when we have like family court involved right because you're not really supposed to bring the children into the dynamic at all even though they are in it let's be honest they're in it right but I think what we can do is we can use lots of really great exterior examples we can talk about somebody at work who maybe took our parking spot twice in a row and crossed our boundary and and how that was not healthy right or that was not appropriate we can talk about toxic relationships that maybe we've had with a friend or somebody on the playground who's bullying a child and we can explain to them what fight is like what that trauma response is I love to give children the psychoeducation about all of these Concepts outside of the parental subsystem so that that way when they begin to see it and acknowledge it in the parental subsystem they can name it yeah words not unfamiliar with it yeah and so it's it's challenging though I have a 5-year-old granddaughter and I'm I'm being very deliberate in books that I buy for her uh about how to make choices and and things like that and it's all part of laying a foundation because she loves to read with pops and of course I eat that up uh but but kids need to to learn that uh you know you have your own separate self and you can you can do that I want to ask you a question um excuse me little bit of the respiratory stuff still hanging on with me there um one of the things that I will tell parents is you don't have to completely ignore the differences between yourself and the other parent and by that I mean the the child may say something like well um I didn't like it when Daddy was yelling or daddy didn't want me to do this and all and rather than saying oh they're there that's okay because it's not uh one of the things I would encourage parents without dissing the other parent is that say well why don't we just agree that when it's you and me that we'll have our own preferences that we go with if you have something you want to talk with me about let's do that or if there's something that I've said that seems confusing go ahead and call me out on that and between you and me that's what we're going to do and so you just bring it down into that narrow Focus you're not saying well that other person's a jerk they do that to me too I mean would you see that there would be that in betweene style of communication to I think it's a tight rope but I do totally coach all of my protective parents on that we can give them Clarity without disparaging the other person we can validate their experiences like instead of say um you know Dad maybe didn't show up for the second visit let's just say second time Dad didn't show up and the child might be hurt by that instead of saying you know what Daddy's really busy and he's working hard honey and I'm sure he's very sorry he loves you very much no right you're just being an enabler no how about just having Clarity I'm really sorry that that hurt you sweetheart but mommy is right here with you and we're going to go to we're going to go do we're going to go to the park or Mommy right here validate their experience and I think that that's what ends up happening when we're living in this gaset world as an adult there's an elephant in the room that nobody's talking about and we're teaching our children to walk walk around this elephant yeah and that's that intuition disintegration I was talking about right and so what we have to do is address the elephant without actually saying it's the elephant but we can address the elephant and um we do a big disservice to our children when they are growing up in these homes they know something is wrong they can feel it in you this is why we know research is showing us over and over again that children who grow up are not witnesses to or EXP opposed to domestic abuse but they are actually somatically experiencing everything they have their own sense of participation in it absolutely okay so this brings up a very interesting question I I'll have people say well I just don't believe in divorce and it's like well listen to some of the stories I hear maybe you'll think a little bit differently I mean not that it's a wonderful thing because it's not um is there a time when you can say or or maybe and of course that the line's going to be different from with one person person to the next where it's like you know we need to get apart from each other uh for my sake for that other person's sake and especially for our kids sake what kind of criteria do you look for that might lead us down that that path so I think that it's always unhealthy to live in a toxic relationship but a lot of women and victims will just say victim stay because it feels safer to stay so you know that these abuse users will pull you back into the relationship with their love bombing and you know with threats right intimidation Etc and sole of abuse you're referring to absolutely absolutely so I think that um Escape is Elusive and when you leave you have to know that it's probably going to get worse we know victims are most at risk for for death when they leave which is just really startling there was a research study out of um California and a fifth of victims were murdered within 2 days of leaving of getting a restraining order that's when there that's what we tell victims to do these victims did it 231 victims a fifth of them were murdered within two days so this is an epidemic that we're not really talking about and coercive control is the foundation of it all when we look at domestic abuse homicides 92 to 94% of them had coercive control as the underlying Foundation of it so this is really what it is right and so I would say that the one thing that we can hold on to is that if we leave we give if we escape I should say we give our children the gift of perspective we give them Insight on what it can feel like to not live in that environment and so I never judge anyone for staying because I have many clients who are still in the relationships because of their fears but the reality is is that if you can if you feel like you can you give your child that gift of perspective which is so vital to their understanding what they should tolerate in their own lives versus what they have been tolerating without even knowing it in this family system mentioned isolation um little bit in back um one of the things that the kid can feel is isolation I don't know if I can say things and I don't know if it's safe and so part of the healing that you can uh help uh in gender with the child is to uh to bridge that Gap and as you're making adjustments it's like you know I I think in the next weeks and months and maybe even years ahead there's going to be some things that I'm going to do differently now or I'm going to emphasize differently and you might say one or two what about you what kind of things would you like to do differently uh would that be a good way to try to rebuild some of those bridges back to the heart and allow them to feel more of that freedom to talk absolutely I when I I think I mentioned I have a protective parenting program and the whole purpose of it is that I believe the best therapists for our children are their protective parents we have so much influence in the days in our home when we're with our children that we can help to give them Clarity we can help them feel safe we can help to give them the discernment be between what's healthy and unhealthy it this takes work as you know as any parenting job does but these are kids who really when we are able to separate ourselves and give them that Clarity they're going to have safer boundaries they're going to really know going forward what to look for in a healthy relationship versus an unhealthy relationship and I think that you know that's like that's such a gift in and of itself never mind that our home is going to be different we're not going to be an authoritarian parent or a Les aair parent we're going to be that authoritative parent that gives our children routine and boundaries and structure and unconditional love one of the things that I think children always know is they know that abusive parent does not love them unconditionally they know that at their core yet we're consistently saying to them oh your dad loves you so much or oh he wants to see you that's mixed messaging you don't have to you don't have to I always say to my protective parents you don't have to elevate the abuser you don't disparage them but you don't have to elevate them but what we do have to do is Elevate ourselves and their lives you know the the person who in that teaching kind of mode towards other kids has kind of a that fine balancing act because you know that for years that person's been suppressing suppressing and suppressing and so it's finally like you know what I'm tired of holding all this stuff in and sometimes it wants to come out like a big gush uh but to your point but I don't want to gush all over that child or other individuals who may not be the the appropriate recipient of my emotion and so uh there's you want to have a sense of fre freedom but you also want to have a sense of restraint and discernment and wisdom and simple as that may be for the two do C's to sit here and talk about uh well it's uh it's it's not just simply because uh the emotion wants to be processed the trauma there's so much trauma in all of this and oftentimes our children are role modeling some of the behaviors they learned in that that family system and they're triggering us right and so that is that is a very tricky thing it takes a lot of work I agree with you you mentioned a few a few minutes ago that some women for whatever reason don't leave the relationship at least not right away and uh I I'm with you I don't judge because I I don't think that there's a one siiz fits-all kind of solution so let's suppose that you're in a relationship and you realize this is not healthy and it's not really good for me or the people that are attached to to me but right now is not the time at at a point like that then what kind of coping mechanisms can they aim toward that'll at least allow them to keep their head above water yeah I think it's so important to reach out to support services right and to make sure that you have I call them protective Parts gather all those people around you that can love you and give you support implicitly and unconditionally I think it's also really important to create some boundaries Within the family system right so maybe that means that there are certain things you're not going to tolerate and that you're going to call them out which is very different and the abuser is not going to like that by the way that's going to make the abuser angrier but if you can call out those behaviors so your children see and they make when they're yelling for example or cursing or name calling down oh your mother she's so dumb right okay um you know what please don't call me down you know so like calling out the behaviors without creating um the the need for a a defensive fight about it right it's not about defending yourself it's just saying please don't call me that name and then leaving the space disengaging from the abuser because as you know they love it when we engage right so oh they they they're they're almost begging for it yeah one of the things and and this is a real skill uh and it's not easy to master but once you get there it's like oh this feels so cool um for example if somebody says Les Carter I think you're the biggest idiot and that you're stup but on top of it you're ugly as well and so I might say something like well that's that's your perspective or or I might say something like um I know you think that way I I think differently yeah and just uh remain steady remain calm and it's like if you think that U calling me names or things like that is going to bother me I'm comfortable enough in my own skin and and and I'm I'm going to go ahead and stay in that and and you may be as disregulated as you want with respect to your thoughts about me but I'm going to go ahead and and vote Yes for me that's hard because you're so you have a history of Defending or retreating and all of that uh is that is that something that you see that people can can get to the point of learning and and leaning into specifically I ask my protective parents to come up with the ways the things the top things the abuser will say to them because they they have a pattern you know they have a pattern oh yeah so what is that what are the things that they pick on you about your vulnerabilities right like that's a number one indicator you're in an abusive relationship when they use your vulnerabilities against you so what are they and now what I want you to do is to write down exactly what your response is going to be every time they say it every time it's like hit return hit return hit return so I use I love your response I use um yeah I don't agree but thank you for your input same concept yeah yeah yeah basically right and then or I say um yeah that's not true but okay okay thanks for letting me know you know and so it's really about but but but if we don't have that arsenal of caned responses somewhere in that disregulated state we're not going to be able to grab it it's we're our brain is going to be in reptilian mode we're not going to be able to grab it so we have to really practice that you know the empty chair idea I tell my clients to look at the empty chair and pretend they're having a conversation with the abuser because if we don't practice it we're not going to be ready in that moment so so true yeah um and in fact when I would do those kind of things back when I had my practice I would I would also say why don't we as we're talking about the possibilities of your responses why don't we include some of your crummy options too uh and let's let's think that one through you can scream at them that's always an option you can kick them in The Shins that's another option you can say ugly things about their mama that's an option uh what do you think about that uh you can cry and go into the other room or then we look at the healthy options which ones make the most sense and and it it can be very empowering to realize Oh you mean you're saying I have options crummy options and good options and I'm smart enough to pick the good ones right so love it that is perfect that is perfect I actually help say to moms let's role model how you can help your child in these situations too because you know um these kids don't know what to say when you know maybe dad say something negative about Mom or mom says something negative about Dad well let's talk let's process with what you can say that gives you agency in that moment that personal power so that that person knows that that's something you're not comfortable talking about Let's uh we're we'll kind of begin winding here but I I want to throw out a word it's it's one of my favorite words in in the therapy lingo it's the word Freedom uh each person has the freedom to be who they will you get you get to choose who you're going to be the opposite of Co of control would be Freedom um one of the things we're wanting to lead people towards is that sense that says you have the privilege to be who you are it's it's not just a right it's just simply who you are it's something you lean into it's it's a responsibility you have uh what are your thoughts about helping those individuals find that sense of Freedom despite that other person's insistence that they must and should be controlled right so Dr Evan Stark calls it a liberty crime okay I'm with you yeah right it sounds like exactly what you just said so um I would say that again make sure that you're re reaching out to people who can be there for you and begin creating safe spaces for yourself outside of that relationship because that relationship will consume you and devour your autonomy you will your autonomy will be completely devoured if you do not ensure that you have places to escape to to give you autonomy and to be heard really clearly Dr Christine coola coola we need so many more people like you uh you're so articulate in the way that you say this okay you you have a website I love the name I knowy yourheart dcom and so I'm going to tell all our folks go go ahead and and flood that flood that website and uh also we're going to have some uh some information uh underneath the video that's going to allow us to allow people to know how they can uh get in touch with your resources and all like that you're you're doing such necessary work and I'm I'm so encouraged when I talk to people like you that are I mean you're on the front line and uh doing doing the necessary thing out there so thanks so much for who you are and what you do well thank you so much for what you've been doing you've been a Trailblazer let's just be honest ter you've been blazing this Trail for a while and I'm really grateful that people have been able to find you and find you gave me solace in the very beginning when I started to figure out that's what I was engaged in in my relationship so I appreciate you very much we all learn from each other don't we so uh let's let's continue in that effort uh once again thanks so much for being with us team healthy I I hope that you are hearing the the heart of Dr C here the other Dr C and that you're going to be able to take up uh the information that she has to offer I will see you next time and once again thanks for being with with us and um Dr C I hope you're you're staying warm enough up there in Connecticut I'm kind of guessing it's a little chilly out there where you are today so sure okay I'll see you next time I hope that we have the chance to do this again okay thank you so much you're quite welcome

Channel: Surviving Narcissism

Views: 14,190

Keywords: narcissism in relationships, NPD, Controlling people, divorce, anger, Dr. Les Carter, passive aggressive, psychology

Id: VAS5bcKV0QI

Length: 34min 46sec (2086 seconds)

Published: Tue Feb 20 2024