- What you are bringing
up is not relevant. - It has everything to do with it. - They're not on the same principles. - Let's let people talk for like- - But when I wanna
talk, I get interrupted, so no, we're not gonna do that. - You're interrupting everyone too. - Let's have no interrupt each other. - I just want this question answered. - [Moderator] This is the 114th
episode of "Middle Ground." And we want you to help us decide what the next 114 episodes will be. Join our "Middle Ground
Patreon" community, and make middle ground with us. (drum beat) - [Moderator] "The other
side is brainwashed." Can the agrees please step forward? - I think brainwash is a strong word, but I also obviously stepped forward. I was raised Muslim. I'm Iranian. My mom's side of the family, especially a lot of Iranians, they felt like they just had to become Muslim to
obviously like, adhere. And it's extreme what
they're doing in Iran. Obviously I'm not comparing, but, I guess with brainwashing, I also went to an Islamic school, so, my really devout Muslim friends, it feels like brainwash. I have a friend who's Hijabi, and I just like, for her, it feels like it wasn't
a choice kinda vibe. It's just something that you should do because of your family, and because of the religion. But then she's also super devout Muslim. It's just a hairy topic. - [Moderator] Can the
disagreers please step forward? - Yeah, I mean, I would agree on the fact that brain watch is a very strong word, just like you've said. Yet, you still stepped forward. I'm not familiar with anyone on this set. So, for me to call someone
that I don't know, brainwashed, I would feel that it's
pretty disrespectful. Especially not knowing
where they came from, what their beliefs are, why their lifestyle is the way that it is. So, I don't really see how
that kind of goes together. - I just think any kind of philosophy that doesn't encourage
you to ask questions, to challenge it, to seek further truth, I think that should automatically kind of be a little bit of a red flag to kind of say "This is the one truth, and everybody else might be getting maybe closer or
further from the truth." - So while I see where you're coming from, I don't agree that people are brainwashed, because I do not want to
disrespect your experience. I think it may seem a certain way, but it might not be the
truth for everybody. And I also wanna touch up on like, you talked about how you can't question something. I think for me, for years, I like really struggled with my faith. I don't remember being a child, and praying because I have to pray, but praying because I felt like there were repercussions that I would have to
face if I didn't pray. And it wasn't until I
got to leave my house, and go to college, and like experience Islam on my own, that I had a good association with it. But I also believe that Islam is one of the religions that does encourage questioning. Like it says, "If you have
doubts, I will have answers." - I just wanted to make a note. This is my, and maybe it's
my personal experience. Growing up Muslim, and I
went to an Islamic academy, I was Hijabi after fourth
grade year, you have to be. and I had religion class every day. And I will just say, I feel like every question I had, is met with, "Because the Quran says so." That's it. Like I date someone who's not, has known background in Islam, or didn't grow up that way, you're gonna get met with, "Because the Quran says so." "Because Allah deems it so." "And that is why." - The reason that I disagree that the other side is brainwashed, is because I think for the
other side to be brainwashed, there would have to be one specific truth, one version of Islam
that no one can question, and everyone accepts as the truth. I think that one truth doesn't exist, and that different people believe in different versions of Islam. So, because a lot of Muslims,
including Muslim scholars, have been coming to
different interpretations, and if you were brainwashed,
you would be on, you would not be able to come to that difference of opinion. You would simply follow what the scholars of the past said. - Hi, I'm Jade, and I'm a member of the "Middle Ground Patreon," and I was chosen to read the next prompt. "Women and men are equal
in the eyes of Allah." (man clearing throat) - I think a lot of people
misconstrue about Islam, when they say that women
are mistreated in Islam. It just comes from the fact that men and women were created
for different purposes. Now that doesn't mean that one holds more value than the other, and that one is seen as better. - As an atheist now, I still hold that Islam does come from a feminist place. You see women in positions of leadership. So despite, you know,
my being on this side, I still appreciate that
Islam has that perspective. - I grew up overseas. I grew up in Bangladesh. And growing up in a country that seemed like a lot of things
are not fair for women, a lot of things are not
fair for minorities. And I think I struggled with that thought. Like, "Okay, if men and women are equal in the eyes of Allah, then why does this exist?" And what I realized as
I grew older was that, we're also living in a society. So I definitely have to
face the repercussions of like other people, and the social construct
that we have, right? - The systems outside of it. - Yeah, the system outside of it. So our experiences are a product of what we believe in.
- Exactly. - And but also like our
position within the system. And I won't put the fact that like society sees women as not equal, onto God, and onto my religion, because that's not what
religion was meant to be. And I'm not going to say that Islam does not believe that women
and men are not equal. - This was one of the biggest topics that caused me to really doubt my faith. Looking at the Quran, looking at the authentic hadith, and also just from
historical records as well. Men are allowed to have
sex with female slaves. In Surah An-Nisa verse 24, it says, "Prohibited to
men are married women, "except for what your
right hand possesses," "and your right hand possessions
refers to female slaves." And we've seen multiple
hadith of instances, where the men have just
defeated the tribe, they have female work ethics, and Mohammed allowed them
to have sex with them. And, that's probably going to be rape, because of what women would be consenting to sex in that situation? - I think too, like just
thinking about the Quran in my upbringing, like I had every day, the two biggest ones that stand out to me, would be like the issue of the hijab. Which I know a lot of people will counter. So the Quran says women have to cover the khimar, to cover up, so that they don't tempt the men. And then, I will say the
Quran does technically say, "Men's hijab is their gaze." The male gaze. And it just seems a little
silly to me beyond that, like in the Quran, how men
can have up to four wives, where women can't. It's like, in the Islamic school, I wanna say the the
Ezan, the call to prayer, all the boys in my class, they're like, "We're gonna do the call
to prayer for this Friday." I'm ineligible, 'cause
I'm a woman apparently. Can't do the Ezon, I can't
do the call to prayer. So just, those are, I would say, are my Quran specific examples. And they're like, "Well
this is to protect women." I don't see that at all. - Yeah, so, there's a
lot of different points that you brought up. The first one being the hijab, which the woman is obligated to wear. And you talked about how the men have to lower their gaze, which is a hundred percent right. The women also have to lower their gaze, and the men actually
have their own hijabs. So the men have their
own parts of their body that needs to be covered as well. So obviously men and women were created both physically different psychologically, all different types of, they're different in every single way. There's different parts of the body that need to be covered because men are attracted to different things, women are attracted to different things, and it's to protect both sides. The second thing that you brought up, I believe you mentioned the, you not being able to
make the call to prayer. Once again, that's in
order to protect the women, just because men can also be attracted to the voice of a woman. So, that's the reason
that that's not allowed. And I completely understand
that you being a young child, that's something that you wanted to do. And I mean pre-puberty in your household, with your family, that's something that you
should feel free to practice. Make the call to prayer, do that in front of your father, your brothers, your
uncles, it doesn't matter. It doesn't need to be in front
of the whole entire mosque. So, there may be things that you felt, because you were a woman, you were being limited to, but there's a benefit behind it. So it's about looking into that. - I think this is bringing up an important point of contention here, with all the things that you're saying. And you keep bringing up that men and women are fundamentally different. Where is that coming from? Can I ask that?
- Where is what coming from? - When you say those things. - When I say what? - "Men and women are
fundamentally different "in these very specific ways." "Men are attracted to a woman's voice." - Okay. So scientifically, men and women are different. So if you were just look at someone, a man, and I look at a woman, I'm pretty sure I would
see some differences, as well as just scientifically, biologically, emotionally,
psychologically, there's been studies, because everyone started to question you being able to change your sex, and be able to change your gender, but you were created as a
certain sex for a reason. And each-
- I would, so that's my point of contention here. There's nothing. There's
nothing for me there, when you say that I was
created for a specific purpose, and a woman was created
for a specific purpose, I would disagree completely. Why can't I fulfill those other purposes? When you start slowly
building upon these layers, these layers of like roles, that, that- - Prescriptive.
- Prescriptive roles. That starts to create
a system of oppression. - Yeah, well in order-
- That's how it's built. - Well, can I say for personally myself, I would say that his view of it is also an interpretation, as much as there's merit to it. Covering my hair and my face for me, was so that people see my personality and my intellect before
they see my beauty. - Okay.
- Or they see the things that they're attracted to.
- Yeah. - Also in my culture, I'm
ethnically black obviously. Well maybe not, obviously. (group laughs) Our hair is very different
from other races. And we go to great lengths to assimilate, and that was something that I personally struggled
with before converting. So for me, yeah, it just, it
helped me gain confidence. I would be worried about like, "Am I, how does my face look? "Is there something on my face?" Or some of your communication is also in your facial expression. So when you can't see some of it, you have to kind of, you know, use your imagination a little bit. I like that mysteriousness, I like that, especially other men
don't have that access, because I'm, I have a fiance. I like that there's only one person who can see these parts of me, and that's what makes it special in a way. So the roles for men and women, it's not entirely just because I want you to do it because I said so. It's probably because it's to your benefit if you look further. - Yeah. I want to talk to your point that Allah actually says in the Quran, that (speaking in a foreign language) there's no compulsion in religion. So when you say that, "Why can't I do X, Y, Z?" "Why can't I do the other
role," for example, right? These are the things that,
because Allah expects you to, these are the things best for you, but it's not that you
can't do these things. - But when you say it's best
for me, there's a threat. The problem is there's always gonna be an existential threat. - Saying it's best for you, because it's what's best for society. So everything that Allah's Pajada puts in place for us, that we believe God, the reason that we have
these specific roles, because men compliment
women in a certain way, and women compliment men in a certain way. Yeah, but what I'm saying is, he's not, when you say that though- - Let me explain myself. Alright. Let me make it very
easy to understand then. I'll use her point, right? So you mentioned that for example, why can you not marry four husbands, and why can I marry four wives, right? These things have less to do with equality or worthiness
in the eyes of Allah, and just individual sex differences. For example, if I have four wives, right, I can impregnate all of them, and we'll all know who the father is, and who the mother is. If you, for example, in this scenario, you have four husbands, we won't actually know who the father is. And also just-
- Why, why? - [Kafir] Why is that?
- Why is that important? Why would that happen? - And how does that make men and women equal in the eyes of Allah? That's what that's telling me. - So I'm saying, we're
equal, but we're different. - There's no knowing of the father there. - And that's just reducing women to the sole purpose of reproduction. And-
- I don't think it's that. Men, you know, you can
impregnate someone every day. And women, you know, we kind of have to stay
pregnant for a while, and I feel like there would
be like a mix-up with- - Paternity issues.
- I understand what you're saying.
- Genetics, like, if it was just one man impregnating a bunch of women, you could have a society still. - I understand what you're saying, but these are such narrow, like what about isms.
- Yeah. - So let me ask you a question. - No, but I want to dive in-
- I'm sorry. I want to hear from
Atia and Janet as well. - Yeah. - I think also, here's
just a food for thought. And I already can guess the answer. Why don't y'all wear a hijab? Like, why can't men wear a hijab? - They are.
- So, I'm currently in a hijab, right. - But I mean on your head. You have heads, women have heads. - So you consider, you're basically calling
that hijabi a headscarf. That's not what a hijab is. - I, okay (indistinct). - And once again, we already said that the hijab for men
and women is different, because we're both created
physically different. So obviously the hijab for both of them is gonna be different. - That statement is not
really equality to me. - And then, once again, you're implying that the hijab is oppressive to women. So, that's what you're implying
when you're saying that. "Why can't men do it?" Because, do you believe that the hijab is oppressive to women? - In the deepest depths of my soul, yes. I understand it can be a choice. I do believe it's oppressive. - By you agreeing that, or by you saying that the hijab is oppressive to women, that's actually disrespectful to our woman in the religion, because you're either implying that these women can't
think for themselves, and that they're just wearing this hijab because they're-
- That's not what I mean at all.
- No, I think- - Or you're saying that we're all forcing every single woman in the
religion to wear this, and we're throwing this on their head. (group arguing over one another) - I think we need to acknowledge how easy- - No, I'm saying that's
what you're implying by saying the woman is being
oppressed in a religion, that's because they
have to wear the hijab. - It's not black and white like that in my mind.
- Can I jump in here and ask? - Go ahead.
- So these justifications that we are seeing for the hijab, do these justifications
really still have solid ground when we consider that the hijab was for only one class
of women, free women. Slave women didn't wear hijab, and because men were allowed to have sex with slave women, they were being sexualized and objectified when Muslim men were considering whether they're gonna purchase them. - Yeah, let me answer that. So, to address your slavery point, I'll get on that in a sec, alright. But the point that you're asking, "If we are really equal,
how could that be?" And you were asking, "If we all had a hijab, why do you have to cover
your head with a khimar, and I don't, right? A very simple example is, if I expect a man and a
woman to lift a heavy load, but the same load, that would be unequal, right? So we have to look at,
is it equality or equity? So, what is equal in the eyes of Allah? For a man, it's not gonna be the same treatment for a woman. And I'm sure we understand
that if there are differences in our sex, then there has to be difference in expectations and roles. - Maybe historically,
but we live in a time where a lot of what you're saying, just isn't relevant.
(group argue over one another) - We are not gonna be
found in a situation- - [Moderator] Pause. Thank you. I would love to wrap this up, and I would love it if the
women would wrap it up. - I will say I feel like it's very rooted in, when it comes to covering up, for example, it's to protect you. And if you are dressed immodestly, they might react a certain way. They're attracted to your voice. I just have to say, I'm a lesbian, and I am not tempted by... Like in my mind, I don't see a woman walking
down the street immodestly, and, it's not rooted in
equality like the prompt said. Allah sees both, men and women as equal, and I don't hear that, honestly at all. (group argues over one another) - [Moderator] We're gonna keep going. All of this is gonna build on each other. I would really love to hear from Atia. - Okay. Thank you so much, guys. There are a couple points
I wanna touch up on. I really like appreciate
the uncomfortable things that you brought up in this conversation. And I loved how like a lot of you guys didn't respond. I couldn't respond myself. And then like she brought up a point, and then everyone kind
of jumped onto that, because that is something
you guys could respond to. And I think like there
are uncomfortable things, that especially us as
women, have questioned, that a lot of times don't get answered. And then I also wanna say, like, you brought up a point, or we were talking about like, "Oh, you're, that she's, what she said was like
disrespectful to Muslim women. That's not true, because
women around the world have different experiences. There are women who are being
forced to wear the hijab. You can't absolutely disregard
somebody's life experience, and be like, "No, you don't
live in that social area. "You could live like this." When you're part of a system that you don't have that same level of like openness to, it's hard to be like, it's hard to see that, you know. - [Moderator] "It is impossible to live "a 100% pure Islamic
life in modern society." - [Moderator] Join our
"Middle Ground Patreon," to watch this exclusive prompt. - [Moderator] "I have lost relationships "because of my current religious beliefs." - The relationships that I've lost, would be relationships that I probably shouldn't have been
in, in the first place. Once I became more strong in my faith, I had to cut those people off. So, those are the only
relationships that I've lost. Yes, it hurt maybe at the time, but I look at it from
the outside perspective, that was the decision that I had to make. - A relationship that I've lost is, in a different sense than
losing contact with them. But the relationship I lost with them, is that I'm unable to be
my true self around them. And that relationship is with my mother, and it's the reason why I'm in this ridiculous outfit today. Because if my mother ever found out, that her only child is
gonna go to hell forever, 'cause he left Islam, it's gonna hurt her so badly. I saw myself, how much it hurt my mom when I was talking openly about my doubts in Islam in high school. It was causing her like
literal depression. The reason I continue to pretend, and like I don't really have the bravery to come out and be my
true self around her, is because she's the best mom I could have ever asked for. She did, she worked so hard to raise me. She sacrificed so much to give me a really happy childhood. And the idea that I will be showing her that all her hard work was for nothing, because her child is gonna
burn in hell forever, I can't hurt her like that again, like I hurt her in the past. She doesn't deserve to be hurt. She deserved to be happy. - I would say I haven't
lost any relationships as far as like dating. And I have no contact with my family, but it's actually not because of the difference in religion, it's because of a
plethora of other things. I would say I went to that
Islamic Academy growing up, and ironically, it was
the best years of my life. I had the best friends. When I went to a secular school, I'm from a conservative area, so I was the only Iranian. So they were bullying me for being hairy. And then when I went
to the Islamic Academy, I didn't have that problem anymore. It wasn't until when
I went to high school, and I'm like distancing myself from Islam, that a lot of people
from our local community just kind of like, there's whispers of, "Oh, Janet's family is hypocrites. She's a whore." Because I don't dress modestly, as modestly as they'd like
me to, et cetera, et cetera. I've lost a lot of, I would say my Muslim
friends from the school. - Thank you for sharing, guys. I also wanna say, I think I have a very similar experience with you. I would say that there were quite a few years of my life when I was really, really
questioning my faith, but also like the way I grew up, and what was like, I
would say forced upon me. And it was really hard, because I felt like not myself. Because of how conservative my family was. as I grew older, we just started becoming like separated because
of their viewpoints, and as they grew older, they became more and more religious. And to a point where I felt like sometimes like if I'm
trying to share my feelings, something like that's really difficult, and I've gone through like very difficult situations in my life. I'd be met with like so
many religious things. I felt misunderstood by my siblings a lot when I was questioning my religion, I felt like I had to keep that secret. And it wasn't until end
of my high school career, where I was sitting with my best friend, who is very Muslim, and one of the best people
I've ever met, and I shared. She was like the first person I shared, and it took so much courage to share that. And then she said, "You're not horrible for
questioning your religion, "you're just human." And I think that changed my life. And I think that's what
I would say to anyone that's like watching this video. I would say that to anybody
who's like questioning, like you're just human. That does not make you bad. And like, especially if you're Muslim, and you're afraid of like
what Allah thinks of you. Allah does not think of you badly. - So I just think I'm in a
pretty privileged position. My dad's half Jewish,
but baptized Catholic. My stepmom was raised Southern Baptist. I have Mormon cousins, I have Quaker family. I've just had to, all my life learn how to agree to disagree with certain things, and just be sensitive across beliefs. But that isn't to say, I don't feel like I've lost some connection for sure, with my really devout Muslim family. I haven't told them that I'm queer. My mother came out, she was married to a woman for a while. So you know, they at least know that. But at least you know, with the conservative part of my family, they've proven that
they're not a safe space, and that's that. - I've lost some relationships
because of me reverting. It's more so because people couldn't relate to me anymore, because I used to be very different. I used to be that girl who would like go to raves with my friends. My favorite rapper is Stunna Girl. Like, I from Sacramento. I wasn't raised Muslim. So, all the friends that I
had growing up and stuff, when I started to become a
little bit more conservative, or a little bit more intentional with the things that I wanted outta life, they were kind of like, "Why don't you want to go with me to like, "clubbing, or do this?" And I'm like, "Because
I wanna have a family." Like I want to make sure
that I'm the type of person that I would choose if I was a man. And I realized that
when I became an adult. And so because of that, people, we just went our separate ways. - [Moderator] "Islamic views
on homosexuality are outdated." - So, I grew up in a pretty queer family. My South Asian family is very Muslim. And my mother and her sisters grew up in that environment. And all three of them
turned out to be queer. I'm queer, my sister's queer. It was a long journey of self-acceptance. And this is just who we are, and who we've always been. When I look at my grandfather, he and I have strikingly similar stories. He admits that in his village, it was normal for men
before they were married, to play around with each other, to have boyfriends, to experiment. But then after you were an adult, after you kind of, after
you married of course, that that was off the table. But I kind of see, you know, almost 70 years apart, me and him both have the same stories. Early twenties, got to
experiment with my sexuality, you know, now in a long-term
relationship with a girl, and very secure in that. But his experience was filled with shame, that he then passed on to his daughters. So, I just, I see that, and I feel bad for generations of queer people who have been told that they can't be, or that maybe they can be, but they can't act upon it because that is haram in some way. So, queerness is in our
blood, it's in our nature. It's across species, it's across
time, it's across history. And religion through Islam,
through Christianity, and through various other means, have been used as tools to
erase that queer history. - I agree.
- All Ibraham, all religion in general,
organized religion, I feel like it's not, you're gonna find it in
Christianity and Judaism. I myself, I'm a lesbian. I didn't come out until I
was older, like an adult. But a lot of that was rooted because I have such devout Muslim family. It's like it's, if I come out like, my mind's going many places. It's not just gonna be like a normal American family coming out. Like I have very abrasive Muslim dad. I don't really see my gayness coinciding with religion, like an organized religion. - I think that Islam has no moral standing to say that two consenting queer adults, can't be in love while allowing a man to have sexual relationships
with his slave. I couldn't rationalize how that is okay, but two gay, or lesbian,
or whatever adults, who are in a loving relationship, they're fully consensual. There's no power dynamic is, that's bad. - My question is, if it's okay for two consenting, for example males, who have love for each other, to conduct sexual intercourse, then what is the problem with two brothers who have love for each other, and they're consenting to
have sex with each other? - That's not the same.
- How is it not the same? - That's incest, and you're comparing incest and homosexuality. - Please explain the difference. - That's disrespectful.
- Explain the difference. - I'm not gonna lie,
that's really offensive. - That's offensive.
- Either way, either way, it's not relevant.
- Explain the difference. - Explain the difference. It's very relevant.
- I could. I could- - One is incest, one is... I've done a 23 and me. Me and my girlfriend
are not related at all. So what is-
- Okay. But what is the difference? What is the difference?
They're both consenting, and they both love each other. - Can I say something?
- Yes. - That's as wrong as
a brother and a sister consenting and having sex. - Yeah.
- Exactly. I agree. - So what's the problem with that? - What do you mean? - So I'm asking you how is-
- Well you're comparing incest with homosexuality. - Okay, because they both
come from the same point. There's two people who consent to having sex together, that's the same exact thing. So what's the difference?
- One is, scientifically- - What is the problem with them having... If they both consenting, and they both have love for each other, just like two males who don't know each other,
have love for each other, what is the problem with having that? - I just wanna say, you just did this thing
in public speaking, called minimizing a issue, and then you are trying
to find this correlation that simply does not exist.
- What I'm doing is actually addressing the principle, which is coming from objective morality. So I'm trying to figure out, what I'm trying to figure out, if this is wrong, if homosexuality is okay, then what makes incest not okay? - Let me tell you something. Let me say, what you ares
bringing up is not relevant. It is not-
- How is it not relevant? - It has nothing to do with, it has nothing to do with two men who are not related.
- It has everything to do with it. It has everything to do with it. - They're not on the same principle. - Let's let people talk for like- - But when I wanna
talk, I get interrupted. So no, we're not gonna do that. - You're interrupting everyone too. - Yeah.
- So it's really offensive for you to make these arguments, when you are constantly-
- Every time I speak, I'm getting interrupted. I let y'all speak every single time, and then I speak.
- Yes. Let's have no one interrupt each other. - I just want this question answered. Like simply put, what's
wrong with two brothers having-
- Can I answer the question? - So-
- Yeah. - Yes, please.
- Okay. So, I feel like it's very obvious that incest is wrong, because one, if you have a child with this person, there might be something wrong with it. Not to mention that, if somebody has known
you since you were born, the influence that they'll
have over your life, is different than if you made the choice to actually be with them.
- Right. - Exactly.
- That's why it's wrong. Here's the thing about
homosexuality because, you would think that I'm homophobic, because you know like, I guess everybody assumes I'm like extra pious and whatever because I cover my face, right? Actually, one of my parents is a member of the LGBT community. I grew up with some cousins that were. I had friends that were, all throughout elementary school, and high school and stuff. I never saw morally
something wrong with it. I think that the reason
that it was put into Quran, is simply about sustainability. You can't sustain life on earth if people like the majority of the population are homosexual. I don't think it was to say that anybody's better than anybody else. We all have the capacity for love. We all just want to love and be loved. - My question is, the idea, that as two consenting individuals, that want to have sexual intercourse, regardless of their backgrounds, what is wrong with that?
- Because we're not saying that that's the only determiner here. We're saying between two men, who have not grown up together, who are not brother, or
brother, and brother. So that's two different things. They are two different things. - Okay, so let's say there's
two estranged brothers that never grew up together. - My honest answer to you-
- I'm sorry. - [Moderator] Can we pause? I would like to hear, Jad, you can make a final statement. I'd like to hear from Atia. And can we keep it about homosexuality? So let's close up incest. - And you wanted to bring up the point about how incest results in, there's obviously things that, harm that can come from that. There's also harm that has been proven to come from homosexual intercourse, and a man having
intercourse with other men. - What's the harm? - All the STD's. - STD's are rampant in
heterosexual relationships. - Yeah, STD's a hundred percent. - But it's been scientifically
proven that STD's ar more in homosexual relationships. - Heterosexual people get STD's too. So your argument of, "Homosexual people get more STD's." That's why it's wrong? - There's new STD's that are resulting from this type of
intercourse that's happening. And it's found a lot more in homosexuals percentage wise. - Yeah perfect. So a very recent scientifically proven one was monkeypox. - That the overwhelming literature- - And that came from gay people? - That was literally... You
are projecting a stereotype. It literally became a
stereotype against gay men. - How is scientific
literature a stereotype? - What are you sourcing here? 'Cause you have clearly believed all of the Google articles, about how it was only
attributed to the gay community. That's my opinion. That's it. Monkeypox was ridiculous. - I really wish that this conversation was like a bit more about like the impact. The fact that it's sinful in Islam, and like the effect that
it has on like youth. I think that like I firsthand know the experience and the hardship people go through when they grow up in a community, when they have never even heard of homosexuality, and then the first time they
hear about it is disgust. The way our societies are structured, we hate on the fact that they even exist. We don't want our children to be that, we don't want people in our communities to be around that, we don't wanna allow people who are homosexual in our mosques. So I'm getting really
emotional about this, because there are just
so many people I've seen, there's so many people
who have lost their lives, because they just could not exist. And so to minimize somebody's life, and to like hate on them for this one part of their life that is supposed to be
so private, is not okay. And it's not Islamic. Personally, I didn't step in here to say that it's outdated, because I don't wanna make
a statement about my faith, that I wasn't, this is something that I always struggled with, but I'm not gonna say it's outdated, because I just don't know why it is the way it is, and I choose not to question it because I'm a Muslim. But at the same time, I do have like a lot of pain associated with that truth, because I have seen how
that impacts people's lives. And I think that at the end of the day, like I wish we lived in a world where we saw the fact
that as human beings, we have free will, therefore, just how I had the free will to practice my religion, and like not entertain a
homosexual relationship the same way anybody else has the ability to not be religious, to
practice homosexuality, and to coexist respectfully. And that's something that sometimes Muslims can't offer,
and that is my problem. And I wish we offered that, so that we wouldn't lose people's lives the way that we do. We wouldn't push people away, we wouldn't traumatize them, and generations to come. - Yeah, and I a hundred percent agree with the fact that it's very important, that we understand regardless of what Islamic points and my points obviously coming from
Islam, are on homosexuality, that that means that in no way whatsoever, am I gonna blatantly disrespect you, for the way that you're living your life. Just because I deep down inside reject, not even deep down, just inside, I reject your lifestyle, that doesn't mean that I'm gonna come out here and start blatantly disrespecting you, and saying anything about the way that you're living your life. If that's the way that
you're gonna live your life, that's the way that you're
gonna live your life. And at the end of the day, we believe that it's gonna be God that's gonna be the one judging you, and it's not up to me. - [Moderator] "Muslims are
unfairly targeted by outsiders." - So I'll just say, this is interesting. - Sorry, I just had to think
for a really long time. - No.
- No. Yeah. Fair enough. - Honestly, just being from
the Middle East in general, you're gonna get targeted. I went to a conservative secular school, and I was the only Iranian kid there, and they automatically
just assume I'm Muslim because I'm Iranian. They have such like disdain for it. I've had in-laws from
several people I dated. Like as soon as they start dating me, send things about ISIS,
and the Taliban articles, which is ridiculous, because
even as an ex-Muslim, I know that's not Islam. I'm pretty protective because of it. Even as an ex-Muslim, if I hear anything
disparaging, I'll jump on it. Because I just feel like people are really Islamophobic. - And I agree. Yeah, Islamophobia is real. I experienced it myself as a kid. And I know the topic was about outsiders, but I have actually noticed this issue with other ex-Muslims. Like some ex-Muslims, when they leave their faith, they become really Islamophobic, and they become really dead set on this idea that Islam is, you're supposed to go and
and attack disbelievers, you're supposed to do jihad like Isis and Al-Qaeda does. I mean, they contribute to how the outsiders would unfairly think that a lot of Muslims are just terrorists, that like they want to jihad. But the truth is the most, the average Muslim today in America, is a peaceful person. - I just have one point to add. I really agree with this, that like especially in the United States, yes, we're definitely targeted. Even if you look like slightly
Muslim, you're targeted. Even being Muslim from a
different sect of the world, a different part of the
world gets you targeted. A lot of times my dad,
because we are south Asian, when we go out to like the Middle East, like anywhere in the Middle East, they attack him because they
think that he is South Asian, even though he's like Muslim, and they can see it, and
my mom's wearing a hijab. But, I really agree with that. But at the same time, I also believe that there's another part of the truth, that like there are places where there's violence occurring, and Muslims are like also part of that problem. So in that case, they're also the people who are hurting others, and also being hurt, and it's like a cycle of violence. I also like the point that you brought up. I think extremism is a problem
no matter which sector, whether that's like a extremist Muslim, or an extremist from any religion. So I think that problem
exists on both aisles. - Everything y'all said is pretty valid. I mean, it's not that, I don't think Muslims get
like unfairly targeted. I think just everyone
gets targeted nowadays. So, it's just like, yes, after 9/11, I think right after that, it definitely got a little bit
tough for a lot of Muslims. I think it was like severe
targeting at that time. I think now, well I don't think it's as bad as it used to be. Still every once in a while, you'll experience something, like maybe me 'cause of my beard, like you'll get like a look or something, or someone will just throw a comment. But it's nothing to the
point where I'm like, I'm like hurt, like "Oh my God." Like "How could you say..." - I just wanna add, I think it's a little different
for students who like, kids who are in school. I tutor a lot of them. I've had like students who have told me, like even like the past year, like how they have had, they were discriminated against. And so I would say that
I think it still exists. - Yeah. What I found for the most part, it definitely like, even
when I was in school, like yeah, I got made fun of or whatever. People would do jokes that, like terrorist jokes or whatever. But once you, I just like, I was the type of person,
I wouldn't just sit down, and let someone make that joke about me. Someone made this exact joke in school, and like about like a bomb
blowing up or something. 'Cause we were watching a documentary. And so I, in front of the whole class, I addressed them, I addressed the reason, "Why did you make that joke?" I explained my point of view, and then he got expelled. So I think if you just let them make these jokes about you, and you just sit back and kind of take it, then yeah, the bully's just
gonna keep on attacking that. - You definitely handled that situation better than I did as a kid. 'Cause in elementary school, someone called me, in PE class, he called me a terrorist. I said, "If I was a terrorist, you would be dead right now." And what happened was, I got a one day suspension, while he got a lunch detention. I think it's important to note, like while I think there's definitely some validity in what
you're saying for sure, like it's important to
stand up for yourself, for your beliefs, for your religion. I don't, I think we need to acknowledge that it's not always that easy. There's definitely circumstances where I think the opposite is true. I think there's just as much true, that like somebody can
go through their life, and it will get worse for them because, even so early on, we're
talking about times like we were young children, and we were exposed to these
horrible pejorative things, and maybe those people have circumstances where when they go through life, it's just gonna get worse. They're just gonna, they're
gonna have even more hatred. They're gonna, there's gonna
be more reasons for them to come at it in a way that's dangerous. - [Moderator] "My personal desires "do not have a place in Islamic faith." - For me, other than like the obvious, I'm part of the LGBT community. I was raised Muslim, and I felt like I didn't have decisions or choices growing up. And when it came to Islam, I remember I'd question
things in my religion class. I remember like the imam told me, like women, when you go to hajj, you can't wear like body
spray, right, or perfume. And I raised my hand
during my religious class, and I asked why. And I always got met with, "Well, because the Quran says so." Like, "Be quiet." "Janet's the problematic
kid asking me questions." I just feel like there's
no room really there, even without the LGBT
community part of me. Like what you want kind of, it felt like doesn't matter. There's no room for it. It's just, it is what it is, and you need to obey it. - At the end of the day, if you commit a sin, and you don't seek repentance, Allah is gonna punish you for it, even if your personal
desires conflict with that. Because of that looming threat, it does not matter what you want. If it goes against what Allah says, then you are risking having your bones crushed in the grave, or you are risking having your skin burned off of your face. It doesn't matter how
illogical you think it is. If you believe in Islam, and Allah says it's bad, and you go against that, you are putting yourself in a huge risk of a lot of pain and suffering. - Yeah, I think, it's not that it doesn't have room for our desires, 'cause it does, it just doesn't have
room for our compulsions. And I heard this quote, someone said, "My religion is perfect, but I am not." You have to allow Islam to teach you, that you've blurred the lines between your desires and your compulsions, and the things that you
actually need out of life. So, it's really hard
to be connected to God, if you're connected to all these things that are calling you, pulling you in all these
different directions. - Can I ask you a question?
- Yeah. - So, does your standard for haram and halal vary at all? What would you base your standard off of? How were you taught those standards? - I learned them from Quran.
- Quran. - Or from my upbringing, like if I don't know. - So. Oh, yeah, yeah. So, I think everything
you're saying is valid. And I think you can also
believe all these things, even just like outside of Islam. I think these principles
have existed throughout time, other religions, other philosophies. And so my question is like, when it comes to the
more sort of confusing... Like I was raised, I'm
not allowed to eat pork. Okay. So that's no good. I'm sure. Yeah.
- Nobody here. (group laughs)
- Same. - Right. And so I think at one point somebody told me that was because they're not safe to eat, or like, you know, it's dirty. Point being, there are moments you can definitely live
your life that way. But my question is, at what point do you
question those nuances, those confusing points?
- Yeah, well first, first, I question why I'm questioning it. It's like why do I want to have a different answer
than what's written here? First I question that,
- Okay. - And then I'll do research and I'll say, "Okay, well how were people
living like before my time, "before my parents,
before my grandparents? "And why didn't they
choose to eat this animal?" Well maybe because it
eats its own fecal matter, or it eats its children. Or, you know, it's own
fetus and stuff like that. - I understand. But
what I'm saying is like, how do you deal with the logic of it? 'Cause there's many
ways to argue around it. - Yeah.
- Is it okay if I interject here? Thank you. So essentially, yeah, there's a lot of things that you may not understand why something is. Essentially what you're saying is, if something is not allowed, and you don't understand
why it's not allowed, how do you kind of go about being okay with this
thing not being allowed? If God is telling us not to do something or to do something, even if we don't understand
the wisdom behind it, it's the fact that we know that he's the most knowledgeable. So we trust in the fact that whatever he's telling
us to do, or not to do, that is the best thing for us. - Blind faith.
- Blind loyalty. - Yeah.
- So blind loyalty. - So, in terms of, yeah. Because we believe that
he's the most knowledgeable. So, I do question obviously if something, I don't understand something, I'll ask someone of more knowledge. And if they can't give me an answer, as to why something is the way that it is, then we believe that Allah and his prophet know what's best. And at that point, I
believe put my faith in God. That's what faith is. - There's just a small hiccup in both of your like
scientific method here, which is that, why am I questioning? And then there's your part. If I don't get the right answer, or an answer that makes sense to me, I keep asking, I keep
asking, I keep asking. But if you don't get it, then there's this kind
of cognitive dissonance that now needs to exist. - I think like a good way to put it, is like part of existing as a human being is questioning everything. That's how we developed everything. That's how we grow and adapt. - I wanna add something really quick. I know that like there's been a lot of questions with what he said, especially you guys saying like, that's blind faith. I think that there is like, I see your point, but there's a lot of merit. And like I agree that like, meaning of life is questioning things. However, if you keep
questioning everything, you're going to have the most doubtful, horrible, untrusting life
in the entire universe. Like the goal of life is
to be in peace, right? So I think that we can only
question some of the things. And I think personally
from my questioning, I have found the answers to which, that has led me to trust the God that I believe in. And that is why I also believe in the other things that he
tells me to subscribe to, because I believe that
that is good for me. So it's not always that every Muslim, or anybody who subscribes to religion, is like blindly believing in everything. No. They have a trusting relationship with that form of God, or that religion, or that ideology, and therefore they choose to subscribe to other ideals.
- Yeah. - I totally relate. There's a lot of insecurity here. There's a lot of doubt,
there's a lot of thinking. I just, I think it is
a much more difficult, and much more noble path to take, you know, through the chaos, through the unknown, through the lack of prescription, through questioning, rather than just kind of taking the carrot, the stick of heaven and hell. And saying that that's, you know, those are my answers, and
that brings me comfort. I think that there are paths to being a good human outside of religion, and I believe earnestly that those paths are much harder to take. - My question to you would be like, "Where do you draw the line?" - We all draw the line
where our morality is. - Yeah. I feel like there's like a general sense of moral. - Others usually.
- Yeah. Right. - So I'm saying if we were all left to just decide what is
okay and what is not okay, do you guys not see that it would just be left
to individual opinions? - No, I think there's like a
pretty basic understanding, just as a human, of
what's right and wrong. I'm just a really scientific person. I'm gonna do my research. I have engineers for parents. So that gives me peace. - Me too.
- Yeah. - So it's my different kind of piece. I don't think people are just atheists, or non-religious people
are running rampant without a set of rules. I think just to be a good
person, religion aside, there's just pretty standard things that you should just follow. - I see your point of view, and I think that that's why like, what she said, and what you said, I understand both of you so equally, because I feel like at parts of my life, I struggled with feeling so much guilt. Like I felt like Islam put so much like guilt on me of like, "Oh, if I do this I'm gonna go to hell." I felt like a really anxious person. But then, once I actually
started becoming closer to God, I had a safer relationship
with him, or them. And I believe that like no, first, like God is here for me. Like there are so many times
in my life, I felt so alone. And like when I read the Quran, like I really feel that now, that like no matter who is hurting me, like Allah's with me. And I think that has been something that has made me really strong. So I think that like, yes, people have a moral compass, but at the end of the day, like as I know from my studies, like it is dependent on culture, and if there was no guidance, people would still create one. - [Moderator] That was
a beautiful way to end. Thank you guys so much. - It was nice meeting you all.
- Nice meeting you. - Love these discussions. Very interesting.
- Let's go. - Yes.
