- Some pretty blanket statement saying feminists don't care about it and you say you think that all
women just are against men? - Well to answer your question, yeah you're talking about women. Women are not all feminists. - [Speaker 1] Yeah. (upbeat rock music) - [Interviewer] Step forward
if you agree with the prompt. If you're a woman, you
should be a feminist. - I think the concept of anti-feminism is like counterintuitive as a woman. Like everyone should want
equality of sexes, you know? Everyone should want to have
the same education level, the same all these things and the position and still make as much as a
person who identifies as male. - In this society we have
to be feminists as women because there's certain things going on where our rights are being stripped away. And black women, black trans women, are more likely to be
murdered and attacked. And that's absolutely a feminist issue. And that's something that
everyone should care about. - Everyone, of any gender
expression, men included, should be feminists. - I think there are
different brands of feminism, if you will.
- Absolutely, yeah. - That don't represent
what I think all of us here feel is the true ideal
of what feminism is. - Absolutely, and I
don't think that everyone has to be active as a feminist
in the exact same way. Like not everybody can march,
not everybody can protest. Not everybody can really be
an advocate for feminism. - At the end of the day it's taking a look at patriarchal systems and
seeing the flaws in those systems and how they negatively impact everyone. - [Interviewer] Pause on that thought. Can the disagreers step forward. - Define woman. Go, please. One of you. - A person who their internal idea of what they are is a woman. - Terrible definition. Coming from a lesbian that
destroys the very concept of our sexual orientation,
just saying that it's an idea. - [Alexa] But why? - Why?
- [Alexa] Why? - Because you can't be connected and sexually attracted
to somebody's brain. - [Interviewer] Let's make
sure to keep it to the prompt. If you're a woman, you
should be a feminist. Why do y'all disagree with that? - Oh okay, okay, okay. - I completely disagree. You know exactly two years
ago if I had done this I probably would be a feminist. But then I started to look at, and I think you the agreers
actually mentioned is, like what do black women
gain from feminism? Because I remember even
during Black Lives Matter when I led two protests for black women and I counted how many times, how many white women I saw there and the ones who were there who were just there to take
pictures for social media. And then the black men
also hiding behind us. Everyone, the whole world hides
behind black woman, enough. - Same thing that's happening, look at what's happening in Iran. People on the feminist side right now are not speaking up for
those Iranian women. I have a friend that is trans woman living in Iran right now. It's miserable. Nobody stands up for that poor girl. - As a woman I particularly
think I'm a humanist. For example, two years ago
I was a working feminist and I made a decision
to pivot my platform. Teach black women how to
sit in our feminine energy because we've never experienced that. - Well that just sounds
like black feminism to me. Teaching women how to do that in the time that we are in now. - But we're not learning fast enough. We deserve to rest, we deserve to relax. We deserve to choose that we
wanna be a traditional wife. I went from law to being a CEO to now I just wanna be a housewife. And every time I say
that I get so much hate. Like women work so hard
to get to this point. Why do you wanna be a housewife?
Because that's my choice. - Because that's what you
want, that's what you want. - That's choice. - Feminism is all about choice. - Exactly, why can't I choose? That's the whole point of feminism. It's like why can't I choose? What are you missing in America to claim that you are
oppressed as a woman? - Well we just had our
rights to our own uteruses stripped away. - The right to murder your
own baby though, I mean. - [Riki] It's not a baby
it's a clump of cells. - I mean we all are clump
of cells right here. - I think everybody's gonna
agree and disagree on that. - Yeah that's a whole- - I don't know if that's on
the topic, that's not on topic. - I had a very, very hard time not stepping up to that prompt because my whole life I did
consider myself a feminist. Seeing how this modern wave of feminism has now turned into
something very different than equal rights. Of course we want equal rights. We want equality as
women of course we are- - But how can you have equal rights when you can't define the
word women on the far left. - Ulta had a woman's day recently and the woman's day was
celebrated by two trans women who still had their male parts. I mean you're pushing
woman out of womanhood. - I'm sure we're gonna have discussions about whether or not a
trans woman is a woman. But I actually wanna
go back to how we feel that our ideal of feminism
is probably not the way that you four think of
feminism, I'm willing to bet. - And I agree with that. I think that's why people like
me stepped away from that. Not because we're not women empowered or believe in women empowerment. - [Nike] It's because
we are women empowered. - It's because we believe women empower means something different
than what you guys believe in. - [Interviewer] Pause, pause there. We're gonna reset, next prompt. There's no wrong reason
to get an abortion. - Okay, if you were
making a health decision between you and a medical professional, that is the right decision for
you, your body, your future, it is always the right decision. - I would never stand
between anyone with a uterus from making a decision about their body. - No yeah they're like, "You can do it. You can have this healthcare
if you are a victim of incest or a victim of rape." It's like you should be
able to have access to that if you want it, you know it's the same as going into the doctor
and getting a routine check. If there's something for your body that you think will not just
benefit you but help you live and also help you sustain an actual good life for your child then that's what you need to do, yeah. - And financial is a huge thing too. - It is a huge thing. - It's an extremely huge
financial responsibility to have a kid and some people
just don't have that means. - I agree and disagree,
I'm definitely pro-choice. I'm probably the only
anti-feminist that's pro-choice. (Arielle chuckling) - Being pro-choice, pro-abortion
is actually very common. It's like 78% of Americans. - Okay so yeah. - There's actually many people
who are in your category. - To me it makes sense
in certain circumstances. I don't think people
should be using abortion as a form of birth control. I think to me, abortions,
believe it or not, not even the issue we need to
be talking about right now. I feel like we need to be talking about how to properly educate people no matter what their status is. No matter what their sexual
orientation or whatever, and we need to go from there. - Well I think I have a very
interesting perspective on this because my mother opened
the first Planned Parenthood in our state. And she is very pro-abortion outwardly, but inwardly in our home we
weren't allowed to do it. And so growing up at that dichotomy really I think messed me up
a lot because I was like, "Okay which one is the truth?" - There are wrong reasons
to get an abortion. A wrong reason to get an abortion is if you are going through your pregnancy and all of a sudden you change your mind. If you are irresponsible
and all of a sudden finding yourself scared of motherhood. - When people say that
women are getting abortions 'cause they just don't
wanna be pregnant anymore they're not actually understanding the way that an abortion works. Most of the time they're talking
about late term abortions. And what a lot of people don't realize is when you have that kind of abortion, you have to give birth to the fetus. There's no going back. You're literally giving birth to a body. It's never just a, "Whoop I don't feel like
being pregnant anymore. Guess these last eight months
I just wasted everything." No, no one's doing that. - Raising children is
the most blessed gift. And I speak as someone who, when I found out that I was
expecting for the first time I kid you not I was terrified. - But you were prepared. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I was not necessarily
prepared, I was not prepared. And I was very much caught
off guard and I was terrified because I had an incredible
career happening for me. - Finances.
- On the upswing. - Finances.
- I had- Let me finish. I had such a dramatic fearful
reaction to becoming a mother because of what our
society has been telling me throughout my adolescence
and my early 20s, is that once you become a mother,
it's all over and it ends. And that is a very, very
deeply rooted problem in our society that I do
think we need to address. - That sentiment is the
patriarchy in action though. - [Interviewer] What is the patriarchy? - What isn't the patriarchy? I feel like that's the better question. - It's a systemic ideal that
favors masculinity, men. - Male power, male dominance. - The traditional idea of what a man is. - The patriarchy is a system
that oppresses not just women, but everyone. - It's not patriarchy because the people who scared me so much were the women. Mom- - Just because it's coming from a woman- - [Riki] Just because
it's coming from women does not mean that it's
not from the patriarchy. - No, no, no these were the women, and I speak with really
strong conviction about this. The women who are publicly
outward speaking to other women through blogs, through
social media, talking about, "My life is so hard because of my kids. Oh my kids are jerks. Oh life is this, I have
no money, da-da-da." Those messages are very, very pervasive and they're very dangerous
and they're toxic. - But they're also real
parts of motherhood. We just discussed how motherhood- - How many of you are mothers here? - I am not a mother but- - Okay I am a mother of 12 years and I know all of the very,
very hard parts of motherhood. And I just wish as
someone who has actually, as the only person here who has gone through this
motherhood experience, from the bottom of my heart
wish that the positive aspects of motherhood supersede
all of the hard stuff. - [Interviewer] Let's
get back on prompt again. There's no wrong reason
to get an abortion. Isabella. I wanna hear from Isabella. - There's been so many
points I wanna talk about. - I was gonna talk about Candace maybe. Candace what she says about- - I don't even know what she said. - [Interviewer] Just let her talk. - Sorry. - So my parents actually
had me when they were 19 and thank God they didn't abort me. They were not ready. They were in a terrible situation. And having me at 19 made
them grow up and mature and become adults and not
continue being on a bad path. So I'm thankful for that. And I mean something that you said, I think it was about
societies pushing this idea like demonizing motherhood. And you said that's
part of the patriarchy. Well I would ask you this. Don't you think men benefit
from women getting abortions because they no longer
have to deal with it? They can just sleep around. And if God forbid a woman gets pregnant, "Oh she wants to abort it, cool. Now I'm off the hook." - [Interviewer] What is the patriarchy? - I don't even know, what that
men oppress us and the likes. - That everything that goes
wrong that men are to blame. And I don't think that's
a healthy way of being. - Very happy to live under
this so-called patriarchy. - This word patriarchy it
does not make any sense to me. Women are not oppressed in America. - Patriarchal society doesn't bother me. Like Marilyn Monroe says, "As long as I can be all of a woman in it, I am not bothered." - [Interviewer] The feminist
movement is inherently racist. - The feminist movement
does not benefit POC in any shape or form. It especially does not
benefit black women. And the darker your skin
is, the more you are used. I call us black women as the bullets for the feminist movement. - If we're talking historically, if we're talking how
feminist movements started, it was an exclusionary movement. - [Nike] Absolutely. - If we go back to the
suffragists or even further, black women were not allowed
to join in that effort because they really weren't
fighting for black women. - So we were used as bullets, right? If we're not being used we
can't be part of the movement. - They did use black women,
they used black women's efforts because most achievements that feminism- You're right, like most of
the achievements of feminism have been done by black women and white women have stepped
in and taken the credit. - Absolutely. - For like people who do
identify as feminists, especially those of us who are white. I think the most important
thing for us to do is to sit down, shut up
and listen to black women. - Absolutely. - As a black woman who
identifies as a feminist my work centers black women. So to say that of course like white women were able to vote before black women. Like the feminist movement
was inherently racist. But how I live my life and
the community that I've built around myself of black feminists, we see- - But why label it feminism? - Well you can label it
whatever you want you want. - Why not just label it
helping other black women? - I affirm you and I
see that the semantics makes you uncomfortable
because feminism was racist but you have- - It is still racist not was. - But you're not racist. So if you are not racist
and you have issues that you wanna be working
towards for black women, that doesn't mean that you're
inherently being racist or helping white women. I think feminism exists on a spectrum. - You're talking about semantics,
we're talking about terms. They evolve and they change. Ideologies change. - [AJ] Right. - And I think that feminism
is evolving and changing, and I think it's because of
the work of people like you. And so that's why I can
confidently say it's evolving. - It's not evolving. I think it's devolving, you know. I think third wave feminism. I mean by all accounts, I see you know, again have a very powerful black mother, I mean no one wants to
say they did life wrong, but she's saying, "Man I wish I could have
taken care of myself. I wish I could have done this. I love how you get your hair done and you go get makeup done and you're so-" And she says it, you know? Like she wasn't there in the
household to raise us like you. Back to motherhood because she was gone fighting every single
day for women's rights to come home and be exhausted
by the time she gets home. And we never got to
have a mother, you know. - When I scroll my own social media feed, I rarely, rarely, rarely
see a powerful woman highlighted who is not an ethnicity. (Arielle and Nike clapping) - Yes. - No, no, no it's true. - You're using them as pawns if you will. - You're using them as pawns. - [Arielle] Oh 100% - A lot of big brands
are now hopping on this, you know modern feminism bandwagon, which I don't agree with
what modern feminism is. But a lot of brands
now, and I'll just say, you know a big brand that
comes to mind is Dove. Diversity is always a good thing. However, for years have not
seen any kind of ad campaign from the brand Dove speaking
to women's empowerment that includes a woman that looks like us. What modern feminism today is lacking I think is genuine respect for diversity of opinion for all women. - [Interviewer] If you
felt modern day feminism didn't hijack all points of view of women that you would still
identify as a feminist? - Yes, yes. - Well I mean the entire
time everyone was talking, all I was thinking was, "Wow I'm so sick of all these labels and all these different intersections." And these days there's more
intersections than genders and I'm just like all these
identity politics groups, we're just pitting each
other against each other. Race keeps getting brought up. I know it's brought up in
the prompt for this one, but in every single other one, and I don't even think about this. I don't even think that
I'm not being represented even in ads, I don't care, it just does- - For sure.
- I am me. - [Riki] Clearly. - I'm sure you don't care. - You don't have to care. - Thank you for letting me know that. Feminists always know best for me. That's what I've noticed, it's a trend. - I mean I'm just pointing out that you are a privileged white woman who has not had to see
the lack of diversity. When we step into a room
filled with other white people, we don't notice that
it's other white people. But when women of color
have stepped into rooms and they see that it's just a
bunch of other white people- - Also intersectionality is
not just about diversity. And it's certainly not about
diversity in ad campaigns. It's about how poor women can't afford to drive to another
state to get an abortion but rich women can. - It costs more money to
drive to get an abortion than it would take to raise that kid? - That's the thing, right? Like if you don't have the money to drive to get an abortion how are
you gonna have the money to raise that child? Why should you be forced- - [Interviewer] Pause
there, let's reset. Reset. Feminists don't appreciate
all that men do for society. - I mean I've got a lot to say about this. I mean feminists just demonize men. They hate men, all men are trash. They say they hate men
while simultaneously trying to become men. They hate them for having
power and the patriarchy. So they're trying to overtake it. But a lot of women will
talk about rape culture. But guess what? Guess who's going to protect
you from bad people? A man. - Men are nurturers. - We need men, we need men. - It's as simple as that.
It's a God given right for men to exist the way
they were assigned to exist. We need men, it's very simple. We need men to procreate. We need men to provide. We need men to produce. We need men to go to war
and die, we need men. It's so bad now that men
can, they're so scared of us. They're terrified all the time. I go on dates with men and they're like, "Am I allowed to open the door? Can I not open the door? Can I touch it? Can I pull the chair out? What can I do?" And they're shaking, they're sweating. And you're just like,
"Be yourself, it's okay." Like they're so afraid
of doing anything wrong. So much so they're now the most lonely demographic in the world, right? Like straight white men I heard are now the most lonely because
they just created incels. You know, they don't wanna
leave their apartment or their house because
they're so afraid of women. - I'm not on board with this trend, especially happening in schools right now. There is a trend where they
are raising up the girls, girl power, girl boss,
girl this, you know. Run like a girl in the best way. - It makes me vomit. - That's so- - Now it's dangerous. It is dangerous because yes
we wanna uplift our women. That's the right thing to do so that men and women
do maintain equality. But at the same time by raising the girls we are forgetting about our boys. - Yeah they wanna solve inequality by enforcing more in inequality. And if women were equal to men, then why do the girls need
to be raised up so much? Why? The only men that feminists like are men dressing as women
and dominating their sports. And just really reversing what the other waves of
feminism fought to do. Have fun with men beating
you in your sports women because guess what? You're not gonna beat them, have fun. I've never even felt unequal so I don't even know what the problem is. I feel like a lot of people
just wanna have this reason to be upset and outraged. I also just don't identify with all these identity politics groups. I think 'cause they're being
pit against each other, separating all these
different people by race, class, gender, everything,
sexual orientation. And I look at people as individuals. - [Interviewer] All right, on that note, let's have the disagreers step forward. - There's a difference
between not appreciating men and pointing out the inequities that have been systemically
put in place to favor men, especially white men, white straight men. There's a difference between hating men and pointing out that
there are inequities. - I wanna talk about this
concept of protection. We're talking about good men. Good men who are protectors. Who are they protecting us from? - [Isabella] The bad men.
- Bad men, exactly. - [Isabella] Yeah. - Or bad women, bad anybody. - I could drive a car and- - It was a rhetorical- - No I understand the
point you're trying to make that's why I said- - But I'm going finish. So then who benefits
from men's bad behavior? Good men as well, right? They get to be positioned
as the good guys. - [AJ] Good apples. - They're the good apples. And that is predicated on
the bad behavior of men. - No they benefit from being a good person and protecting women who can't- We should not be praising people based off comparing them to bad people. - But I don't benefit
from being a good girl. I don't think- - You know you're a good feminist, right? I'm sure people love what you
have to say as a feminist. Other feminists agree
with it and are like, "Yes go girl boss." - There are good people on
earth and bad people on earth. We're always going to have that. That would never change. It's in every animal kingdom. So we need the good men to
protect us from the bad men. - To go off of what you said, because you said when women
are sexually assaulted they turn to another man to protect them. I work as a sexual assault and
domestic violence counselor. I work with rape victims every single day. They don't turn to men to
protect them, they don't. - I didn't say they turn
to them I was saying like- - No. - Potentially can if you're
walking home alone at night and you're afraid-
- I don't turn to another man. I don't, I turn to other women. - Yeah I appreciate men. Like I love a man that knows his place. Build the house, yeah, yeah. Repair that because I'm a goddess. You need to hold your
weight in the relationship. Like I appreciate men, I love men. You know, just like you said,
you know you have a husband. You wanna cook for your husband. You make sure that he's good. Men have roles in society as well. Feminist is anything you
want it to be as a woman. I am promiscuous 'cause I'm a feminist but you can also be conservative
because I'm a feminist. Modern day feminism is about
you and what you make it and not what someone 60
years ago said it was. But I don't praise men
because they aren't raping. Like you know that's- - I agree with everything you just said. - You're agreeing with
us 'cause we're saying the same exact thing. - You actually agree with the prompt because I do appreciate men. I don't think that feminists
don't appreciate men. I think that's not true. - Like the person who taught me to be the feminist that
I am was my father. - Yeah. - My father did not raise me to believe that I was less than
because I was a woman. He raised me to understand that I am societally disadvantaged. But he told me that I was
going to rise above that. - My household with my
father, my mom was so strong my dad became so emasculated
he could not do anything. He stopped working. He became just like a couch potato right. While she just went out
there and killed it. And we are destroying family as we know because look at me I'm in my 30s. I'm not settled down. I don't have children. I don't have this family
unit that I want so terribly because no matter how hard I try that feminism that I was raised with always tends to overshadow my relationship 'cause in my head I know best, right? Like I know what's right. I know 'cause I saw it growing up. I saw it modeled to me growing up, like a woman knows everything. We're so powerful, we're so strong. - The idea that men are supposed to be the head of the household. Do you understand that
that is killing men? - [AJ] That's killing men. - It is killing men. - Well let them die because
they need to go back to working. - The pressure of it, you mean, right? - The pressure of it is
destroying their mental health. That's why men are six times more likely to commit suicide than women are, especially men in committed relationships. Men in their 40s that
are married with families are the highest risk for suicide. - But it's killing men
because we have generations and generations of boys who
were not raised to be men and rise to that occasion. - It's killing men because
we are not in a position capitalistically where we can have men be that one single head of the household. The bread earner, the decision maker. We are no longer in the 1950s. Our economy is not able to handle that kind of nuclear family with the man being the
head of the household, the stay-at-home moms
and and the 2.5 children. - I wanna clarify, I'm
not a stay-at-home mom. - No, no, no. - I do work.
- I understand. - And so I do have perspective. When you are in a long-term marriage or relationship with a partner of anyone, yes you're going to have disagreements. But you also have to
understand that each person in that partnership does have roles. - [Arielle] Have roles. - Because that is how a
healthy family functions. - [Interviewer] Only
woman should make laws about women's bodies. - I'm gonna add a minor caveat to this and not say that like entirely just women should make laws about women's bodies. And I think it's more important that people who are
educated on the female body are the people who are
allowed to make laws about the female body. Like we shouldn't have
lawmakers making laws stating, "Oh abortion is completely,
completely illegal even if it's an ectopic pregnancy. You can reinsert that fetus." No, you're killing people if you make that kind of stupid law. - It doesn't mean that
any of our male lawmakers can't be involved. - And frankly, I think they need to be a little bit more involved. Some of them are slacking.
- Thank you yes. They are letting me down. - Yes absolutely. - And you know I think
there are a lot of men who hold a lot of power
who are on our side. - [Riki] Right.
- Who are not doing enough. - [Riki] Yeah. - I want to say it's funny because I think you all spoke for us because I think you all agreed that everyone should be
involved in making these laws. We need men, you see how simple that was? - And men can be women these days. - Men can't be women if they
actively identify as men. That's not a thing. - I currently identify as a man. - Okay, then you're a man. Congratulations. - Thank you. - Do you agree that these laws that are specific about our bodies shouldn't the originators of that bill talking about our bodies be women? - Answer that. Can y'all? - No, I don't think we should
think about men versus women. I think we should have intelligent- - It's not about men versus women. Of course men are going to be involved with creating laws and
putting laws into place. But when we're talking about the language, when we're talking about
verbiage for these laws, shouldn't a woman be,
multiple women preferably. - [AJ] Yes.
- Be involved? Be at the forefront of what
these laws look like for us. - I think it's less about
a man versus a woman and more about the way society
is now versus 50 years ago. People that you didn't even vote for that are spending
lifelong terms in Congress in the Supreme Court. That's more of an issue
to me than worrying about if a man or a woman
wrote this law or a bill. - There's checks and balances
to our government checks but I wanted to ask you would you- I'm a woman I'm 100% pro-life. - Oh you're a woman now? - I identify right now.
- She's gender fluid. - I'm switching back. - [Riki] Okay cool. - Very fluid, very fluid by the hour. But would you be okay with,
so I'm a woman for now, and I am very pro-life. You're okay with women
like me making these laws because you disagree
with the outcome there, you're pro-choice. - But the law is, if we're talking about Roe v. Wade, right? - Yeah that's an example. - It's not about your ideal of pro-life. It's about abortion. It's about bodily autonomy. If you don't wanna get an abortion fine. I mean that's what it's all
about, it's your choice. - I wanna sort of reverse
and ask you the question, should there be laws about women's bodies where there was no women involved? Because there certainly are. - Right, but we live in
a system of government where there are states' rights. And I live in California and guess what? I don't agree with anything
our governor is doing. I don't agree with the majority that is in our state legislature yet I live here and I choose to live here. And if I have a problem with the laws then I have the opportunity
to move to a different state. - So just fuck all the
people who don't have the opportunity to move
to a different state? - Everyone has opportunity to work. (indistinct) a life for
themself here in America. - [AJ] They don't though. - What I love about America is that this is the only place on
earth that you can work and achieve based on your merit. - I was raised by a
single mom who you know, didn't have the support she
needed to really mother me. So by the time I was 15
I moved out of our home and I lived with a boyfriend at the time. I fought my school board
for better sex education. I fought my senator when
he voted to repeal funding for Title 10 and birth control access, the funding I relied on. And I told him, "Why would you
deny me the American dream?" And I shared with him that birth control was helping me to be successful, to go on to higher education. And now I'm on a full ride
at Columbia University. I'm the first in my
family to go to college. And in large part that
is because of access to birth control. - You guys mentioned that
not everyone has a bootstrap. And this is why feminism is
such a weird topic to have in this particular country because I'm from a developing
country, I'm from Nigeria. You know although my parents
were quite successful, thankfully. But I grew up around poverty. I saw it every single day. And so to come to this
country to have to start over and make something of ourselves, and I see immigrants do it all the time. When you say things like, "Oh I was raised by a single mother." Or you know most people
don't have bootstraps, you're in America. That's like, this is, I mean- - [Arielle] This is the place to do it. - This is the place to do it. Find that boot honey and put it on. - No one's saying that
there aren't challenges. We're saying that this is the best place to have that challenge. = The challenges are
not distributed equally. - Nobody said that-
- Let me just- - Somebody did. - To say that only women
should make decisions about women's bodies is
completely unrealistic. - I have to believe that there is a future where that is possible. - Well of course there's a future. More women than ever are
serving in our government. Of course there's a future. So of course women always
have a seat at the table. - You're at Columbia. You moved out at 15, you're at Columbia. - Yeah but when I
graduated from UC Berkeley and I was in my lecture halls there were two other black people and it's 400 people in here. Like that makes me uncomfortable. - It's not that we look at everything through an oppressive lens. It's that many of us
hold different identities that allow society to
continue to oppress us. A friend of mine had to travel
across state for an abortion. She had the ability to select between paying for the
things that she needs for her disability or
traveling for an abortion. Like you guys don't have
to think about that. She has to- - But that was her decision to have sex. - No she wasn't she was (beep) raped. - No then I agree with
you, then I agree with you. - But I shouldn't have
to tell you that story for you to understand that
there are certain things that you have not experienced
that oppress other people. "Oh okay you're just traumatized enough for me to understand that
maybe things are hard." - [Interviewer] Feminism that
doesn't include trans women isn't feminism. - You surprised to see me here? - No. - Okay good. - You know it's really
important to include trans women and trans people and gender
nonconforming people. Which by the way I am gender queer myself. I don't actually identify as a woman. It's really important that those of us who do have privileges like
speak up for trans women in the community. Especially because they're the
most at risk for hate crimes. - I also wanna just level set and say that we are having this conversation
without trans women. Right, we are sitting here today having a conversation without trans. - Do we know that? For sure? - I identify as trans. - She identifies as non-binary and she's on a feminist panel. - My pronouns- - So maybe she doesn't belong here either. They don't belong here. - Plot twist, I am biologically female and I'll never deny that. I lived as a woman for most of my life. I am 31, I only came out
a couple of years ago. I spent a lot of time, you
know the majority of my life in these spaces with women. That does give me a kind
of unique perspective now being a trans non-binary person. - There's an issue with
categorizing womanhood as a means of female. Earlier it was mentioned by somebody on the anti-trans side
about trans women coming in and taking over sports
and things like that. Which is just not true. - That is true. - It's not. - It is.
- It's not. - I can show you a number of cases- - I can show you- - There might be people that also haven't. - No I can show you a number- - Trans women retain 30% of
their biological advances. - That is not true. - If they went through
male puberty, yes it is. - That is not true.
- Yes it is. - That is not-
- Let's not argue. That's not even the prompt I'm
not gonna argue about that. - Because you're wrong. - If you are a trans woman
and you walk out in the world and you are seen as a man you do not belong in women's spaces. I don't care what anybody says,
I think that's ridiculous. And I think even trans women
that have gender dysphoria that go through transition
will agree with me. - This makes me so
incredibly uncomfortable that we're even having this conversation. - You could go back over
there if you really wanted to. - [AJ] Ooh. If we took all of that
off the table right. If we're not talking about
who can play sports with who, can people exist as who they are? - Absolutely. - It sounded like you were saying if a trans woman doesn't look like what you perceive as looking like a woman they shouldn't be in feminist spaces. - I didn't say that. I said they shouldn't be in female spaces. - Okay. - [Arielle] Not feminist spaces. - Okay, okay. - [Arielle] I think women- - I disagree with that but-
- That's fine. It makes sense to
biologically classify people. It also makes sense to
socially classify people. Let's say my friend Blair
White was sitting right here. That's my buddy, I love her. She's sitting right here. Do I think she lives
her life as a man? No. Like we were talking about
men making decisions for women as far as abortions are concerned, that's something she'll never experience. - There are women who
biologically cannot produce. There are females, people
assigned female at birth. - [Arielle] Yes. - Who biologically cannot produce. Are you saying that those women should not be able to
have a say in those laws? - That's not what I'm saying at all. I guess my main issue with
trans women being seen as women and not being seen as trans women is they're changing
the definition of women and expecting everybody
to go along with that and that affects me, yes they are. And that affects me directly. You say trans women are women. Trans women are trans women. It's a very different experience. - Trans women are women. - We're just gonna agree
to disagree with that. If you ask feminists at a
women's march what a woman is they can't even define it. How can you protect something
and empower something that you don't even know
the actual definition of? - Well I will say JK Rowling
calls herself a feminist and was canceled for not being pro-trans which is kind of overtaking, reversing some of the work
feminists have done in the past. - She's a billionaire. - [Isabella] Well they criticize her. - She's fine, she's fine. - Oh her billionaire feelings are hurt. I'm so saddened for her. - Feminist movement does not allow anyone to have any other opinions but what you guys think is correct. - But what does that mean though? 'Cause she's allowed to have that opinion and she still makes a bunch of money. - Yes she does. - What do trans women take away from women in the feminist movement? - The definition of
words and what that means and how that affects us directly. When you change-
- Can you expand on that? - Yes, when you change the word woman, legally it has implications,
sexually it has implications. It directly- - But the word woman has
changed throughout histories, throughout different cultures. Indigenous people have
had different genders, different ways of looking at gender. The Torah specifically has
eight different genders. And we have recognized
that for over 3,000 years. You're denying anybody's culture that does not agree with your
perception and your worldview because you hold so
highly onto your identity and you see it as an
attack on who you are. - So do all of you. - [Arielle] On sexual orientation. - So do feminists as a whole. - But it's nothing to
do with sexual abuse. - It has exactly to do with sex- When you change the word woman and a lesbian is a woman
that is attracted to women, how is that not directly affecting us? - What defines a woman is being born with biological women's parts,
and that is what a woman is. And trans women are individuals who choose to live their lives as women. And I honor that and everyone
deserves dignity and respect and I mean that. But at the same time there
are universal truths. And we have as a society gotten to this confusing tangled place
where there's your truth, your truth, your truth, your truth. There is one objective
truth in what we are. - Can you explain to me
the women in Guatemala who are born female, who
are assigned female at birth and then during puberty grow
penises, can you explain that? - I've never- I can't explain it because I
don't know anything about that. - [Arielle] That sounds
like an intersex condition. - I get how feminists
always tried to tell us how we should live our life. I said I was retro feminist she goes, "I don't believe that." - I don't see that. I mean what you've been saying I can't see any traces of
feminism in what you're saying. - My mother is literally- - We heard a lot about your
mom, but what about you? - I am a woman. Looking at me I am a woman,
born and raised a woman. Why are we trying to write
woman born biologic woman? Why are you trying to
write us out of history? - You guys keep saying that
there's a biological reality of male and female. Scientists do not agree with you. - Scientists that you
choose to agree with. I mean you can find a study
and a scientist could back up anything you wanna prove these days. - I choose to do peer reviewed studies and not ones that are
backed by political agenda. And I'm sorry that my
peer reviewed studies tend to agree with the fact
that trans women are women and that biology, it does
not exist in a binary. Never has and it never will. - [Interviewer] I secretly
crave men's approval. - Yeah. - Men's approval has kept
me safe in so many ways. Being desirable, being (beep)
has kept me safe manier times. And it's no secret, I guess
that's where I disagree. It's no secret that
sometimes men's approval is what stands between me and safety. - I firmly believe that the
reason why I waited so long to come out with my transness is because I was afraid
of losing male approval. It is so embedded into our society. I really pushed myself to present in a way that wasn't authentic to me for men. - Yeah. - I'm trying to unlearn
this like very actively and trying to fight for
nobody's approval but myself. Like because it's not even that
I should have men's approval or I should need men's
approval or women's approval. I should need my own approval. - Yeah and I think, I mean this prompt I
think might be surprising for some folks to see us sitting here. - Yeah. - 'Cause we're like so
feminist but like you know- - But it's a reminder that this work doesn't happen in a vacuum and that because I am implicated
in what is happening right. In the issues, I am
implicated in the issues. That's why I do the work. - [AJ] Yeah. - Because I am impacted by them. - I've never thought of a moment
where I thought to myself, "Oh I wish that man would find me sexy." Because I feel so empowered in myself. I always dress like this
from head to toe covered, usually from head to toe and never- I don't think I've ever
experienced a moment perhaps subconsciously, but
I don't think I've ever. And you know I think
that's also why you know with my platform now that I switched from a retro feminist to
femininity, which I was. And you can't tell me
what I was and who I was. I had the shaved head, the
armpit hair, all of it. - Did you really? - Yes I did. And when I went from that to that, now I teach women how to like
dress modern and cover up and be feminine and soft and all of that. - Who are you dressing
modern and modest for? - For myself because it empowers me. I am Nigerian first and foremost. And because of that in our culture we've always been very modest. We didn't even have a word for it. It's just that's how women dress. We would layer on top of
layers on top of layers. And I remember when I
first became a feminist and like in movements
and I would show skin. I always felt so uncomfortable. - Why did you feel uncomfortable
with showing your skin? I'm not saying that that's wrong, I'm just asking out of curiosity
why you felt uncomfortable. Like what the root of that discomfort was. - Because it's not who I am. - But I also think we'd be denying reality if we said when we put
clothes on in the morning we didn't think about the way that we would navigate
the world in them, right? The way that people would perceive us and think about us. - [AJ] Of course. - And it's definitely worth noting that like you know clothing choices are also about access to power. Access to moving through spaces being seen as acceptable
in certain spaces, right? - Like covering up not necessarily because you feel like that empowers you, but covering up because
it's a sense of safety like- - [Alexa] Right. - Like one of the things that we have to, with my job we have to correct officers on like when an assault
victim comes forward like they're not allowed to
ask what were you wearing. - That's bad, that's bad. - It's very bad, it's very dehumanizing 'cause it implies that- - It was their fault of course. - That it was their fault. - Yeah I just don't really care about men. Like men are not a part of my day. When I wake up in the morning I think about how to
be the baddest (beep). How to step into myself. So if that's looking
like you from head to toe or showing a little cleavage
like it's gonna be what it is. And men are gonna like- The men I attract they like me because I am like no one else they've met. Like they've never really
experienced this new person. It's like you can't- You don't know what their approval is like especially when it
comes to things like race and preference and like nothing that I do is gonna really be approved by men ever. So I might as well just do me. - [Nike] I agree. - But I do just wanna
say that men's approval, once again it's not just
about if they wanna date you or marry you or have sex with you. It is about if they wanna hire you. If they want you to be a
part of their organization or their school. And so when we talk about
wanting men's approval we're talking about if they wanna hire me. If they wanna let me have
access to that social mobility and if they will allow me to
be safe walking down the street or in a bar. Men's approval approval is so much deeper and more systemic than just romantic. - Yeah. - Are we allowed to- I have to agree with that even though we're on
the opposite end of this 'cause you know I'm a blogger and I write about women's like makeup and you know, for example,
Dove is one of the brands that I am the face off. And when I go into those
meetings there are white men. And although I do not go into it thinking, "Oh my God I should seek their approval." I do know that the way
I dress conservatively gets me those checks. - And probably as a black woman how you wear your hair as well. - Oh yeah. They love this hair, oh they love it. They love it. They love it. - I was trying to push you before. - But that's also how I
was raised, it's cultural. Nigerian women are very
conservative by nature. - [Interviewer] It's rational
for women to fear men. - Working with sexual assault and domestic violence
victims every single day. It has completely just
reopened my mind and my trauma 'cause I am a sexual
assault survivor myself, which is why I got into
the work that I do. It's every single woman, almost. Like almost every single
woman has some sort of story where she was in a room
or in a space with a man and that man made her feel unsafe. And if every single woman
has a story like that, it's rational. - Absolutely. - And I think that's why again, I know I'm bringing this
back to the trans issue, but that's again why I think
it's important to define what a woman or man or male or female is. If it's just something in your head, then why do we logically have to be afraid of that specific thing
if it's just something, a gender in your head. - So- - There are biological differences
that can make us fearful or make men react certain ways that are different than women. - Yes and no but there's
absolutely a different perception of a trans woman than a man. Like in my experience when women are with like in the same room as trans women, they're not as fearful of like, "Oh my God this person could assault me." Because the likelihood of trans people assaulting women is so small. Like it's practically not- - And there's a reason for that. - There's a reason for that. - I agree with that, actual
trans women, my point- - Trans women period.
Not actual or in actual. - No here's the thing, people that are claiming
the trans identity but are not trans.
- That's against the prompt. - That's true. - Men are not only scary because of their biological difference, they're strong or whatever, right? Some of the violence is
that men can be abusive, harmful and get away with it. - It's the system. - And that power.
- Absolutely. - It's the systemic power that is scary. - You're right. - The reason that 90% of sexual
assault cases go unreported is because of like roughly
the 8% that are reported only 2% of them actually
face consequences. - And we seem to agree. - Yeah, yeah everyone agrees. - Some of my deepest, I honestly would say
probably my deepest trauma is actually not my
physical sexual assaults. It was the manipulation that
I faced in the workplace by someone who was not
necessarily physical with me, but they manipulated me. They used their power
to paint me in a light and push me out of that job that I loved. - I'm so sorry you experienced that. - Oh I agree like the stats
will say a trans woman, which I would say is a man, a trans woman. It is less likely, like
very unlikely to attack, but it's really kinda the principle. It's like, but if they were
to, they would beat me up. - But then I'm gonna take
that one step further, which is that if they were to, and then the police were to come, what would their experience be like versus yours as a white woman? - I'm not talking about
the cops, it just means- - But the cops are a factor. - I actually hate the cops, just saying. - [Riki] I have a question. - I don't like cops. - If you see a male person
and you see a trans woman, like does that have equal
amounts of fear for you or is there a difference? - So my thing I'm trying to focus in on, a trans woman wants to beat me up. - Why are trans women
wanting to beat you up? - No that's not, I'm saying hypothetical. - Hypothetically. - It's a hypothetical. I'm just saying like, can we all agree that I
would get my ass beat. - But I'm saying- - Well yes or no? - I mean, yes, maybe, but then well how would the experience be outside of just that hypothetical vacuum- I wanna finish my thought because- - That's not the prompt though. - No but it is the prompt
because we're talking about, we can't talk about this
in a hypothetical vacuum. - [Nike] What's the prompt? - The prompt was that it's
rational for women to fear men. But you're bringing in trans women when the discussion is men. - It's not about physicality
for me it's about power. - And that's what I'm saying is that- - And that's what you are saying. - And that's what I'm saying, is that that situation is so unlikely and it is unlikely
because of the difference in societal power that you
hold over a trans woman. - That's not exactly true. - For people who love to
criticize other people for assuming genders incorrectly. You love assuming how
things are gonna happen and like predict the future
and how situations play out and how I'm treated by everyone else. - Well you're hypothetical,
that's a hypothetical. - You're assuming what would happen to me? - You're assuming they would beat you up. - A man would beat me up, yes. - You're assuming a trans
woman would beat you up. - Male, male, it's a male. - Male. Yes that's all I'm saying. - You wanna avoid answering that part and going to this bigger
broad thing to avoid- - What's the question? - If there's a biological
man, a trans woman. - I disagree with you
on the definition here. - Biological male. - Okay we'll say male or
female and gender man or woman. - I'm a biological woman
who is roughly of like not too big of difference of size. I could easily beat you up. - Right. - So why are you more
afraid of them than me when I present just as equal
of a difference to you? It's because of your- - No you obviously could beat me up- - No you said this five minutes ago. Men, males, not men necessarily. Males create what did you say 90% of? What did you say? Males
create 90% of the crimes, sexual or whatever-
- I didn't say that. I was talking about
reports of sexual assault and that does actually
include male assault victims- - Most of them are males. - Most of the male assault victims, their assaulters were also men. - That's my point, right. - Hi, okay so let's start by saying the conversation that I just listened to. I don't disagree with much of
what we were talking about. When this prompt was asked I interpreted the prompt to
communicate it is rational for women to fear all men. I know that the word all was not in there, but that's how I sort of understood it, which I don't think it's rational
for women to fear all men. I think that's very tragic. We know that there are bad men. We know that there are
very, very good men. And I personally think
that the amount of good men exceedingly overwhelms
the amount of bad men. But that's just my personal opinion. I also, quite frankly, fear women. I do, I fear how manipulative women can be to each other in the workplace. I fear how manipulative
women can be to each other and how toxic women can be to each other when it comes to polarizing topics like we've discussed here, motherhood, other
variants and deary topics. - We're talking about
physical abuse with men and actually emotional abuse is most common in lesbian couples. - Really? - Yeah that is, that is- - [Riki] You would know. - [Arielle] It's horrendous. - Women are equally as likely to commit domestic violence. I genuinely, when I got into this work, I thought that it was gonna be like, "Oh just men commit domestic violence." No women are equally as likely
to commit domestic violence. - But why were you surprised by that? - Because I had a different
definition in my head of what domestic violence
was before I got my training. Domestic violence is not just like - Punching or hitting. - Punching, hitting or physical violence. Oftentimes it's emotional
violence, psychological violence, sexual violence, financial
violence, legal violence. And women are far more likely to commit psychological domestic violence. - [Arielle] Yep. - Or emotional domestic violence. - But why were you with
your original definition, the more violent definition
of domestic violence? - [Riki] Like physical violence? - Yeah physical violence. Why were you surprised that oh women like- - I wasn't surprised that
women commit physical. - You assumed that men would. - No I wasn't surprised that women commit physical
domestic violence. Like I assumed that
there was one definition of domestic violence
and that was physical. And statistics do show that men do commit physical domestic violence
more than women do. - [Isabella] Yeah, yeah. - That's just a fact
but like when you add in all other kinds of domestic violence, women commit at equal rates. - Yeah. - [Interviewer] That's a
wrap on the group discussion. Take a breath for a second. - I do appreciate the ways in which we have been able to
come together and agree because I am of the opinion
that feminism and anti-feminism they do oftentimes blend because
I think a lot of the times we are misunderstanding what
the other person's view- - We all want what's good for women. - That's what I said over there. - We just have a different
idea of what that is for women. - But we all want the best for each other. - Even if I disagree, I love strong women. I love it, it's not a gay
thing, maybe a little bit. (panelists laughing) - And all of our intentions are good. We don't want ill. - [Interviewer] That is a
wrap on the group discussion. (panelists clapping)
