What the Bible Says About a Marriage Falling Apart | Therapy & Theology

hi friends welcome back to another episode of therapy and theology with my friends proverbs 31 Ministries director of theological research Dr Joel murumale hi Lisa so happy to have you today it's going to be an amazing discussion and licensed professional counselor and also my personal counselor Jim Kress before we get into our conversation I want to remind you about the listener guide we're making available for each episode of season three we know these episodes can be a lot to digest so this is a resource my team created to help you practically apply what you learn whether you're listening to therapy and theology podcast or watching us on the proverbs 31 Ministries YouTube channel we've linked the free listener guide for you in the show notes now in this installment of therapy and theology we're going to cover some really major topics and I want to say right up front that we're going to be talking about about hard things hard relational Dynamics and some of what we're going to be covering is divorce now the reason I want to say this right up front is because I loved being married and I am very pro-marriage the way God designed it I think it's amazing and it shattered my heart into probably a million pieces to walk through a divorce which I refer to Jim gave me this verbiage as the death of a marriage so I want to clearly State up front here we are going to be talking about some hard topics if there's little ears listening you may want to entertain them another way so we're going to Dive Right In and we want to take a Biblical look it's not just going to be an experiential look but we are going to really take a deep biblical and Theological look at some really hard relational Dynamics today we're going to be talking about divorce and Joel the reason I'm looking at you and I'm looking at you too is because I think one of the number one questions that people ask when they're in incredibly hard marriage Dynamics not just married marital difficulties because if you put two centers together to try to manage kids and finances in life you're going to have marriage difficulties and those are good reasons to study some good resources go to counseling get some wise advice but when that shifts into some destructive patterns some behaviors that are far apart from God's design of marriage then sometimes people start asking what are the biblical grounds for divorce I know this is a big topic and the heavy subject but I'm really thankful that we have your theological wisdom yeah well I think first one of the things that we need to First establish is What is marriage and what is God's ideal his intent for marriage and one of the things Lisa and Jim that I've noticed is over the course of time and there's actually some historical proof connected to the Bible and translations and really good godly people that want to Value marriage in a highway but at times here's the challenge that can happen sometimes we can take the institution of marriage which is a Godly really good thing but the institution of marriage is built upon two image bearers a man and a woman who reflect the image of God which means that they have an inherent dignity and worth and value and unfortunately I think what's happened is we've taken the Institute of Marriage and we've actually at times elevated it above and over these two image bearers they're supposed to reflect the value and worth of God and when we do that and we take the Institute of Marriage and we leave it at a higher place in the actual image barriers that are within that marriage and the consequence of that is actually a dishonoring of both what God intended marriage to be and also the image of God that these two people bear um and so I think that's the the first thing that we kind of need to start with and now the second question is where are the grounds uh for divorce well there's a rich Old Testament context that really gives us a lot of information the ancient Israelites had verses in the Bible that they taught one of them if you're taking notes Deuteronomy 24 1-4 is when they will spend a lot of time uh looking at but I want to start with this that marriage is the Hebrew word uh barith which is also translated as Covenant here's one of the challenges that takes place when we hear the word covenant I don't know I'm gonna throw you guys on the spot what do you think of when I say Covenant I think of a really significant and important contract and when you think about the Bible typically what do you think about Covenant relationship too between God and his people perfect okay this is I always think of the the seriousness of like a blood Covenant which is actually in the sexual part of marriage as well if you look at it yeah exactly so here's what's so interesting what we've done is we've actually conflated at least to your point we've conflated uh Covenant that is unilateral between God and man and we've imposed that view of Covenant onto the marriage covenant between two imperfect humans and this is dangerous right so what we needed because between two people it's bilateral it's bilateral it's not unilateral so wait I want you to pause here because I think this is important yep why is this important like why does this matter yeah because God's ability and his character and his perfect nature allows him to forgive in a way and to always leave room the possibility for reconciliation to pursue these things because God is love he is righteous and he is just so God is reconciliation possible possible possibility no matter what no matter what because he's God but in a bilateral relationship reconciliation is conditioned conditional yeah and this and this is why it's important that word for Covenant that the best English word that we probably should use which people are like oh is that the best but wouldn't it is the best translation it's actually contract and this is how the ancient world understood marriage they would actually write a marriage contract in the same way that you'd have two parties that come together and each party has a responsibility they've got roles they've got stipulations and catch this there are consequences if those stipulations are unmet on both sides so we're back to boundaries again a boundary without a consequence is a mere suggestion that's exactly right and so now we get into this question of well what are the grounds for uh for a Biblical divorce because sometimes divorce happens and it doesn't follow in these biblical kind of guidelines but I want to talk about what the rabbis um the the teachers of the ancient Israelites how they categorized the grants for biblical divorce there were there are three categories that they would use and underneath that we can flesh out um different distinctions but these are the three categories the first one is unfaithfulness unfaithfulness now it's really interesting I and you know this is what I do for fun last night I went through ancient near Eastern contracts as many as I could you know yeah because you know what that's just what I want to do on an evening at home I just want to go through ancient neri's contracts that's right after you do that while you're watching basketball I was gonna say Jim knows me really well I was watching the Lakers game uh last night to watch the number two all-time greatest player alone I'm LeBron James um but the interesting thing about many many many ancient near Eastern contracts and even many Greco-Roman so when I say ancient near Eastern I'm talking about Old Testament when I talk about Greco-Roman I'm talking about New Testament what is the commonality is unfaithfulness is almost always not present so we ask why why is that it's because it's assumed it's like the oxygen that we breathe you know uh uh I am thinking about breathing and doing the breathing without actual like intentionality it's just a natural response in the same way when these marriage contracts were written unfaithfulness is a given so if you are Unfaithful through adultery that instantly breaks the marriage contract and make it breaks the marriage Vibe okay what do you mean it was a given it was understood in that time it was a normal ethical obligation and responsibility so in other words you're saying that they expected it or they expected faithfulness they expected faithfulness and so in the presence of unfaithfulness they understood that that unfaithfulness broke the contract of faithfulness okay so it's almost like why would I need to write in something that is already present as the fabric of our society is that are you saying that it was instantly so it was understood that if there was unfaithfulness infidelity that it instantly contract you didn't have to say I'm breaking it or it broke it broke it it broke it absolutely now there are two other categories that are really important and the rabbis teach on this one of them is material neglect and the other one is emotional neglect so you've got these three umbrellas and underneath it it can be played out in different ways material neglect now I'm talking about an ancient world that was patriarchal like we can't get around that and so there are social kind of responsibilities that a man and a woman would have but even in this setting super amazing super important that there was this idea that both parties both men and women because they're made in the image and likeness of god require the dignity their dignity value and worth which means they both had a responsibility to each other so the husband's responsibility from a material standpoint is to provide food to provide clothing from an emotional standpoint to provide love to provide the necessity of emotional intimacy sexual intimacy in that area and the same was true for the woman back to the man that these things were supposed to be there now the ancient rabbis understood that if material neglect was present and you're not talking about just like oh I wish we had a bigger house no I'm not we're talking basic material needs basic material needs I mean I'm talking about um yeah like is there food on the table is there um a safe place to to live and so yeah I thought I heard you say I'm sure this needs to be edited out because I must have not been listening they were required men were patriarchal not to provide some kind of emotional connection oh yeah I handed that out that is absolutely true and so they understood and actually we'll look at a different passage in Exodus that understood these three things that love was was a requirement love was a requirement so love is emotional it's both it's so we're seeing this Duality it is both physical and is both emotional now the rabbi so the Val like where where does the divorce when is it valid um the rabbis understood that one of the things that is really important is this thing called the certificate of divorce so if you go to Deuteronomy 21 versus one through four it talks about having a certificate of divorce why is this really important because in this society and in this understanding that in order for a divorce to be valid that the man or the woman has to be able to show hey one of these three things has taken place unfaithfulness material neglect or emotional neglect and in the presence of that the rabbis would step in almost like a legal system and say for especially for the woman who's oftentimes the most innocent and vulnerable and the victim in the situation she needs protection here you know and so they would step in and actually put a penalty on the husband until the husband actually gave a certificate of divorce the certificate of Divorce by handing it to the woman it gives her Dowry back which is financial stability that's what they came into the marriage through and it made it possible for the woman to get remarried if she chose to get remarried okay so this is this is new and deep and I'm so thankful you've done the theological heavy lifting so that we can better understand this so here's my fear when you say this because remember I am pro-marriage I think we all are very pro-marriage and pro-gods design for marriage so where the unfaithfulness seems pretty crystal clear you know um what feels a little squishy to me is the material and emotional because you know I I think there's a lot of talk around um the need for us to acknowledge emotional abuse and I a hundred percent agree with that um emotional abuse exists it is devastating and it can also because our trauma not only happens to us it happens in us so it can also really come about with physical consequences emotional abuse um and so I know that it exists and I'm so glad that we're addressing it here but there's a big difference between somebody being emotionally abused and somebody just saying I don't really feel that way I'm distant today yeah and so how how like I just want to make sure like how how are people quantifying this like what or qualifying it like what is the parameter because it feels like that could get people into to the mindset well he doesn't make me feel loved the way that I want to feel loved that's right and then quickly peace out on a marriage yeah so let's let's read this so in Deuteronomy 24 1-4 this is what Moses says if a man marries a woman but she becomes displeasing to him because he finds something and if you're highlighting you know taking notes he because you find something indecent the Hebrew word is about her so what is this indecency this becomes a big question he may write her a certificate of divorce hand it to her and send her away from his house now this gets to the very question Lisa that you're asking what is the context of this emotional neglect and what is the context of material neglect now the rabbis and I'm going to get to Jesus because really we need to filter everything at the end of the day through how Jesus understood this so we're going to start with the rabbis in this first century because Jesus understood the background that the rabbis established in oral tradition and in the practice of the people of Israel then Jesus comes in and actually defines exactly how we ought to think about this this is um really interesting for unfaithfulness for adultery for unfaithfulness the marriage contract was broken so that was kind of clear-cut you know um now Deuteronomy 24 1-4 the way the Hebrew is structured and this is really important for Jesus later on the way the Hebrew structured is neutral it it could say that he may get a divorce or it could say that he must one is and there is a huge difference now this meant that different rabbis and different teachers had to make an interpretive decision about that um and so then what happened for the rabbis is the way they separate emotional and um and material neglect is that the first option for them in the presence of these things was not the contract broken they actually established Financial penalties in the presence of this so we're talking they were taking steps they were taking Progressive steps steps not leaps not leaps and they put the onus on the offender okay so Jim I I want to get back to what you're talking about but Jim I know what it feels like to sit in your office and to be wrestling in the deepest part of my heart my soul with acknowledging that I was in a marriage that there were things happening that were not honoring of God's design for marriage you know there was infidelity and there there was other things that were present that were extremely hard and at the same time I I remember very much sitting in your office and thinking two thoughts I don't want to be a divorced woman and what will this do to the future of my family like I don't want to lose my family and at the same time I was having to acknowledge this is not sustainable and so I would imagine you see women and maybe even some men because I don't I don't want to think it's always just the woman who's crying it could sometimes be the man that's heartbroken in there it happens absolutely and so just speak to the heart of that person from a therapeutic standpoint any wisdom that you would have you know actually the words of Saint Paul come to mind and I'm going to borrow them so even if it's a little out of context I'm going to borrow I have fought the good fight I've kept the faith I've finished the course as we've talked about my terms it's often the the death divorce is the death of a marriage you know at least I want people to try to work their way out of the marriage if they're going to be getting out of a marriage to me you are a perfect example of that and here in North Carolina where we live the state wants you to take a year actually a year and a day slow things down post divorce regret is very very high and indeed work your way out of the marriage that also gives the spouse even if they're what we often call the offending spouse or the addicted or Unfaithful spouse a chance to say hey are you going to go do your work certainly or which we've talked about are you going to truly repent I like that word metanoia in Greek it means I don't just stop I stop and I turn 180 and you see me moving back toward Health Psalm 51 broken and you'll see it a broken and contrite heart and spirit God will not despise by the way I believe that it may be implied that he does despise the opposite of that so you say is there a Brokenness is there a willingness and it gives some time because if a person is Unfaithful in my experience more anecdotally if they're an addiction experientially is within a few months you'll find a Telltale sign they'll go back to it because they can hold their breath for a month or two if they're not completely broken and contrite and truly walking a healing Road of repentance so I do think it's also important to state that with my experience and I'm not putting this on anybody else because I don't want to tell you what to think I want to give you a lot to think about and that's really what we always want to do here with therapy and theology is just to give you some things to think about and answer some questions to the best of our ability but this is not a prescriptive episode for you this is us giving the facts and in my experience I wanted to leave room for God to move that's just I witnessed that yeah and that's just what I felt was really important for me it was it was for me and I'll say more about that that is as stunning so powerful comment because I think the average human mind at least at one level could go well you're even when I was setting up you're doing that for a spouse and you said no I was actually doing that for me would you yeah because I remember you saying Lisa the rate of post uh divorce regret is really really high I didn't want to carry the weight of regret and I knew what would comfort me if the divorce happened and it did wind up happening I wanted on those nights where I laid in bed and I was so intensely lonely and sad and wondering if there was any kind of a future for me at all I needed to know that I had left room for God to move that I left no stone unturned now did I do that in close proximity to this person no there was a separation and separation sometimes can be a wise and possibly even Healthy Choice you know we talked about taking steps not leaps and for me being separated created a different kind of stability for me because the there was infidelity involved and because of that I was constantly getting triggered if I was in close proximity to this person and so it was crucial that there was some space so that I could give myself the ability to regulate to take a step back and to not constantly live in high intensity trauma mode well you just went very importantly read my mind about the the actual the power the necessity of that separation versus get out I don't want to be with you is a sense there can be trauma bonding that goes on I can be confused it's a trigger-rich environment that I lose myself I lose my healthy thinking by coming over here and separating for Solitude therapy counseling biblical counseling to be over here and to kind of just get my wits about me because let's face it sometimes if a person's been in a relationship that long my log I use they're either being lied to the person's omitting stuff like I wonder if they're telling the truth or G they're being gaslit or gaslighted that's that Sacred Space to come over here and you know I just want to make this even as much from a therapy standpoint than a theology standpoint although I do believe it's theologically accurate I want to be aware if someone is out and want to use that word right sin if they're out in darkness if they are out in who who knows even strongholds or being influenced believe it or not even demonically that if they're coming back in your house and bringing that in whether you have children around or not that that energy that that that whole vibe of them coming in sometimes it's like I don't want to be around that particular if they're just activated and acting out in their addiction and or infidelity I don't want to be around that and you touched on this lightly I want to be of course very clear to say because I've seen this a ton to say to women and they may feel well he repented one night or he seemed better is if there's been infidelity and I'll say that whether the woman's been in has infidelity which happens or the man then there should be a time certainly I mean talk to the CDC of sexual abstinence and say well it looked like everything he repented or she repented one night because then you're dealing with STDs and STIs and that can be incredibly dangerous yeah and I know this can feel hard devastating maybe even sometimes impossible people and I remember thinking I don't want this and it feels so complicated and so impossible I mean I'm I'm a Christian Bible teacher and I'm thinking about you know having a separation I mean all of it felt impossible there's always going to be circumstances that make it feel devastating and it should feel devastating because a marriage is that precious to God but at the same time just like Joel was saying I'm an image bearer of Christ and so it was really crucial to me to have a separation so that I could get my wits about me also I think what can feel complicated in this is you know when Jesus said we're to forgive 70 times seven and we're going to touch on this in another episode the whole principle of biblical forgiveness what is it and what it is not but here's what I want to say when Jesus is giving us that instruction to forgive 70 times seven because I know Jesus is about preserving life and caring for the individual Jesus would never have taught that in the context that we're to stay close to someone who's devastating us brutalizing us hurting us in other words we are required to forgive but maybe we need to create enough distance between us and the person hurting us or harming us so that from a distance we can forgive 70 times seven even if that person doesn't change and we can still be safe and we can still be you know just able to move forward in our day without the constant Devastation of the actions of another person we can't even control so we can forgive from afar reconciliation like you said is conditional yeah I think that's so important and I want to Circle back on what the both of you were talking about in terms of leaving space and taking steps and not leaps really and I said earlier I want to get to Jesus and what is Jesus and a lot of people will take a passage like Matthew 19 7-9 where the Pharisees come come to Jesus and they ask him about divorce and Jesus has some very specific things that he says he never got your question it's a gotcha question but first I think we need to realize that Jesus is rooted in a specific social and historical setting just like you and I are like we live in North Carolina there's a social uh constriction even that's placed upon us in in the area of marriage and divorce Jesus in the same situation after the rabbis had Come Together by the time of Jesus there are two trains of thought that were taking place when it came to divorce one was the school of shamai and the school of shimai understood that divorce was only a matter of indecency this is the Deuteronomy 24 1-4 verse and that indecency is adultery it deals with sexuality sexual impropriety and what is indecency uh adultery sleep you know and I'm going to talk exactly about what adultery is in the uh Jewish context but um it's it's cheating on your spouse you know but there's another school and the school is the school of Halal the school of halal understood indecency as two things as both indecency but also a matter because technically that Hebrew word could mean two things so what they said was yeah sexual sin for sure but also any matter so they actually progressively pushed divorce as a possibility for any situation that you want in fact there's one study in the mishnah or writing the mission is basically all the oral tradition of the rabbis put together and this is wild uh the mishnah says that um uh that it could yeah a divorce could be sought even if she this is the quote from the vishnah spoiled a dish okay so does this get corrected yeah Jesus corrects it I want to hurry up and get to the part where Jesus does correct it because we are not endorsing we're not no that but I want to point that out because this is where scriptures get weaponized this is where things go sideways and what Jesus does in Matthew 19 7-9 I'm going to read the verses and we're going to get exactly into what Jesus says about divorce and and what we should do or how we should go about it but he says um why then this is the Pharisees asked Jesus why then they asked him did not notice the words did Moses command us to give divorce papers and to send her away this is a quote from Deuteronomy 24. uh and then Jesus and then he told them Jesus told them no Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of the heart not this is important phrase because of the hardness of your hearts but it was not like that from the beginning so what Jesus is doing is he's actually contr he's actually correcting the Hillel view that for any reason you can just go ahead and and do this and Jesus is saying exactly what the both of you said don't make leaps start with steps so he says Moses doesn't say um that you must in in this situation but he allows it for the sake of protection but the linchpin phrase here is and I think this gets to some of this question and I know Jim you're gonna have a lot to say about this from a therapeutic standpoint but how do you know when enough is enough you know like what does that look like well when Jesus uses this phrase the hardness of heart um this word is actually connected to the Hebrew phrase in 24 1 with indecency and it's also connected to Jeremiah 4 4 which talks about stubbornness so when Jesus says a Hardness of Heart what is he actually talking about he's talking about unrepentant Sin he's talking about an individual who who doesn't just sin and then does it turn a shoe in Hebrew is to repent and to to return back to God but he goes I'm good with my sin I'm happy to live in my sin in fact all of y'all better deal with it or they live a double life or they live a double life there's there's an extreme like repentance here and secretly they're still acting out over here that's right so what this means is when Jesus gets at in this uh in this text is Jesus leaves room for divorce in the case of the offender who is showing a Hardness of Heart who is unrepentant and that unrepentances persistent and stubborn sin can I look through real quick that I've never asked you this whole time I've known you but Matthew 19 happens to follow Matthew 18 which is a classic church discipline passage and you talk about we talk about slowing down the steps if someone sins against you hey you need to talk about this if not a couple of witnesses which we know goes back even to the Old Testament and then take it to the church if not treat him like a non-believer but there are steps in Matthew 18 not tying that directly to exegetically to divorce but there's a there's a premise there of being able to go there and say hey will you change will you do that bring it to the church I understand there are house churches and all that that's different but um or smaller groups probably but there's something there that if you need some steps to look at I think that's a good example don't you absolutely I think that's really good Jim and I want to ask you about this Hardness of Heart because again this is an area that can get kind of squishy and I think it would be good for you to tell us some phrases that are indicative of a person's Hardness of Heart I'll throw out a couple yeah please um One is you're making this so much of a bigger deal than it really needs to be I mean my goodness it was one time right you know or why do you keep bringing this up like it happened I said I was sorry why do you keep bringing it up and again that points to the reality that there may be a fact of what happened but there's always an impact of how that impacted you and it's in that impact of course the person hurt they're gonna they're they cost them something emotionally maybe even cost them physically or sexually so I think when the sin is minimized to quickly get over it um I think that could be a problem now we certainly don't want to keep berating somebody if somebody is repentant and they are humbly seeking restoration then berating them is not the answer either but some of those statements I feel like are such an indication that something there's a Hardness of Heart that is just not going to be good for this situation yeah I like that even I'm as you're talking I'm seeing steps yet again and and before there is repentance I see no other evidence otherwise then there needs to be confession that Greek word we've talked about in this podcast before homologue to say the exact same thing as like to say quite frankly even if there's use of pornography I've committed adultery in my heart there I want to name that the confession of saying this is what I've done well I don't know if I would call it that so we're up forget repentance we can't even land the plane on confession this is what I've done I also of all places you know I love Nehemiah to go back that when Sam balance Avaya were coming they're just rebuilding the walls a very simple Point almost like it just sneaks into the text which is it said they're going to come and try to harm us Sam ballot to buy their armies they're going to come try to kill us and harm us then this line slips in and to cause confusion among us so that is an issue if you see someone trying to mess with your mind you know the truth you know I found the evidence or I've seen that well it's not one that which is classic gas lighting right yeah what you've seen there really wasn't that or I only did it one time and sometimes many wives I've worked with especially will have basically empirical evidence no we caught you or you're doing this I know and the person says well it's not what you think it is so the smoke and mirrors thing to cause confusion I think for our viewers and our listeners to be able to think do you feel like for a moment I know what's going on here I'm pretty sure this has gone on and even evidence-based but this person the offending party is trying to cause confusion I think that's a sign of a non-repentant heart I think it's more than just non-repentant I think quite frankly Scott Peck wrote a book about this I think it's actually evil yeah and you know it's so complicated about that is even when you see evidence that something isn't right you taught me that where there's smoke there is a fire because my heart so desperately didn't want what I thought I was seeing evidence of to be true I wanted him to say everything's okay you were faithful to your side of the contract yes it's a breach of contract when this stuff goes let's talk contract it's a breach of contracts so your operating system and I've said to you you know this many times Lisa you are such a woman of Integrity it's one of my favorite parts of you wholeness not Parts alienated off that wholeness is really what integrity means to me and so with your walking in Integrity you're doing that if there's a breach of contract I watch you hold up it doesn't mean you're perfect that's not the point but you held up your side I've seen so many times this person says I'm really holding up my part of the contract and they're not so even that gets rather slippery yeah people might be like confusing wait does God do this God I don't think God does this I just want to point out like um you know God divorces Israel throughout the Old Testament like look at the book of Hosea does that mean what it says I mean yes he's divorced Israel I mean look at Deuteronomy 32 8-9 uh the the after impact of the Tower of Babel in the midst of rebellion you know even before Israel was in Israel he divorces the people uh and allots them to different places and so this is language and this is an understanding that is consistent throughout the scriptures and yet it it is that God's tendency his heart is this um acceptable endurance with with the hope and with the vision of actual repentance and actual change and we've remembered that it's God's capacity for forgiveness and Redemption and and Reconciliation is unilateral but you know with people it's not as bilateral which we already talked about and so our reconciliation is very conditional but yeah I remember the day that we were sitting at my kitchen table and you said Lisa you do realize that God divorced Israel and it hit me like a ton of bricks that I had been carrying this resistance to divorce that I don't even know where it all came from I hope out of a pure heart it came from how serious I was when I take my marriage when I took my marriage vows but there was this heaviness that I thought if I divorced him I am going to carry the weight almost like the Christian Scarlet Letter and when you said that it it lifted something in me and I just thought I think God loves me enough to have provided a way out when I am in this devastating relationship foreign [Music]

Channel: Proverbs 31 Ministries with Lysa TerKeurst

Views: 182,783

Keywords: what the bible says about a marriage falling apart, when a relationship is falling apart, therapy and theology, therapy, theology, lysa terkeurst, lisa turkhurst, lisa terkeurst, jim cress, joel muddamalle, what the bible says about divorce, biblical divorce

Id: YT3bZab0Rhs

Length: 35min 46sec (2146 seconds)

Published: Thu Mar 30 2023