Narcissism ... What It Is and What It Isn’t | Therapy & Theology

hi I'm Lisa Turk Hurst this is Joel moon Mollie and Jim kress theologian therapist and I'm just the average person in need of both oh yes I'd like that welcome to therapy and theology today's topic is very fascinating and I think often very misunderstood so we're talking today about narcissism and when I used to hear this topic of narcissism before I started really studying it on my own and understanding it from both a theological and a therapeutic standpoint I thought wow if there's a narcissistic problem then that really equates to a problem with pride so that's what I thought for a very long time when in essence the presentation may be pride but that is not really what's at the core of narcissism what's at the core of narcissism is shame and that to me was very very eye-opening so just so you have a basic definition of what narcissism is Jim I'm gonna give my stab yes solution but I'm assuming since you're picking up your iPad you have a very official definition of narcissism or an official or unofficial here we go so just to lay the groundwork write the beginning of our conversation we've established that the root of narcissism is not pride the presentation may be pride but the root is shame and so what's a good definition Jim for narcissism well there's gonna be an over it kind of an overinflated sense of importance so coming out of that shame which shame is I'm bad if you saw me if you knew me and I would even add I'm empty inside SH AM II I say shame is self-hatred at my expense shame so I I really don't love myself as much as it might appear I hate myself well so there's a grandiosity and this this emptiness that is inside that goes back clear to childhood when we have talked and talk on this podcast about the lack of healthy mirroring the only mirror I have is really to hold my mirror up to myself and try to define myself by myself in myself to fill that emptiness when the problem is there's a hole in my bucket I can fill with other people we use the words we'll get into about people who are empaths or echoes the original narcissus story or someone who is a supply to that person like Dracula needing blood the problem is there's not enough supply emptiness I have to keep filling up filling up filling up so it's an endless loop for a person like that it really is I think one of the best ways to define narcissism is someone who will charm you close but then emotionally just really almost like you think about a vampire you know sucking the life out of someone it is emotionally sucking the life out of whoever they pull close so it's their charm that will pull you in and whatever grandiose nature that they're presenting you when you get charmed into that it seems like the most thrilling existence that is around it'll feel like the narcissus which is classic is actually filling you up and they're very seductive and can be warm and it feels like well you're making this about me I get drawn in kind of like the spider in the web right but I get in it was never about me it was will always be about the narcissus but early on it feels like you're filling me up not true feels like it not true yeah I was reading something recently and the narcissus needs both a stage and an audience and so the the supply or the person that's charmed into that relationship they become the one that the narcissus walks on at the same time needs the admiration to a very extreme degree so I need you to let me walk on you and I need you to clap for me and I need you to tell me how great I am constantly and if you criticize me bad news that is tapping into something I cannot handle and as quick as he charms you in he can just be that just that quick to shut you out so there's a range though of narcissism and I think it's important when you're defining narcissism to really talk about this range and also I think it's really important at the very beginning here that we say number one we're not diagnosing anyone in your life with narcissism actually it is a diagnosis that needs to happen with the professional so please don't take what we're saying today and say oh I'm gonna identify all the narcissist in my life right and also don't take this information and turn it inward and try to self diagnose although that's that wouldn't typically be the response of a narcissist so if you are trying to self diagnose right now and wondering if you have the problem chances are you're not you're probably not the word I use there I love what you've done with that is the weaponizing people do that in therapy all the time lord knows they do it in theologies that I get a little learning you little something you know here's a diagnosis get on the internet read blogs and they come out become this closet or this armchair therapist in their diagnosis you're a narcissist there's not a person I've ever met and I don't believe since Genesis 3 what ever existed that didn't have a little narcissism in them that's not a narcissistic personality disorder right there's a sense that I like Who I am and in this selfie generation we've even seen and missed in the last decade or two where song lyrics became far more if you look at narcissistic about me less about other people and then holding up that you know getting this selfie so our whole culture understands experientially some narcissism not narcissistic personality disorder are way over to sociopathy being a sociopath that's right and this really isn't an issue of mental health it's not just it's not just personalities that are central this is an issue of mental health and just because you take a selfie doesn't make you a nurse that's right I just want to clear that up too okay so let's talk about this scale Joe psych who not a lot of selfies no I'm just thinking like recently that I like the new i phone literally they have a slow-mo selfie like it's not just good enough to take a selfie we had to do it in slow motion and I think it has three cameras on the - doesn't it for sure you know like - that's okay Joel yes alright so here we go the the range can be all the way from selfishness which we can all disparate selfishness to narcissistic tendencies where maybe you have an unusual need for admiration a lot and another classic thing with narcissistic tendencies is while you need people to admire you a lot you yourself have very little empathy towards other people and again just because you may be a person who struggles with empathy does not mean you have narcissistic tendencies I'm just saying the way it presents narcissistic tendencies all the way then to the narcissistic personality disorder that's taking that one step further in this this continuum and then all the way to the extreme end of the spectrum with no conscience no empathy and that would be sociopath or psychopath either one yeah so you know there's quite a range here that's right and so very low percent probably about 1% truly in culture could be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder I know all things were possible in Christ in God yes MPD narcissistic personality disorder very little hope or research or evidence that that person fundamentally changes with that so it's a very low amount of people haven't and there are things that we can get to later about what do you do if you are narcissists about how you learn to cope let alone the power of what God can do there is no God in this factor yes that's right and I also don't want to pick on people who may struggle with at times being selfish because you know that's a presentation of a continued process of you probably say sanctification yes or maturity or you know whatever you know different people have different ways that they prison their issues we all have issues but I think most of us at times can be selfish or selfishness or not as sympathetic toward other people or in need of encouragement to the degree that it almost becomes admiring so let's just say that there's gonna be information for all of us in here not should try to diagnose ourself with this but to recognize what it is so today we're talking about what narcissism is in our next therapy in theology recording we are going to talk about what do we do if we are in relationship with the narcissism because there is information there that I think will be very helpful but today let's focus on first what it is we've covered back now where does it come from and I found this really interesting when talking about a narcissistic wounding which anyone who's struggling with narcissistic tendencies certainly those with a narcissistic personality disorder there has been a narcissistic wound or wounding that happened and in one of the pieces of research I was reading I like they called it the emptiness wound and I thought that was pretty fascinating I also was looking what does it take to raise and emotionally help the child into becoming and emotionally healthy adult and I found it pretty fascinating there was two things that emerged most consistently in the research that I was doing one is this term called mirroring and I haven't really heard that talked about much at least not in my circles Jim you probably have but the second besides mirroring that we need to be doing if we want to raise emotionally healthy children is a consistent presence or object consistency is what some people call it so I want to ask you Jim about this mirroring principle so the best that I could understand it is when a child falls down and skins their knee instead of saying to them don't be so emotional right you would then go up to them and mirror back to them like oh of course you're sad like Oh sweetie you fell on skin to me you know are you okay and so explained to me maybe a few other examples of that mirroring so that parents can really understand what we're talking about well and these days we have which is a little bit more advanced not that much of what we call mirror neurons that in us inside us is I literally have mirror neurons that can mirror if you're sad I can be satellite literally and we can without even being verbal we can feel literally with these mirror neurons what each other are actually feeling there's a connection adult to adult so the babies you've said you and I both have children and we have grandchildren you have children grandkids will come trust me but the idea of the scrape knee versus well if you were not being so careful or romping around you what you've done to my response and then we're gonna get joke Joel Joel fixed one of these things you know it's melody said it's the mirroring and a lot of this it was never taught so to learn to sit down and say oh I'm sorry so you scraped your knee let me get some medicine and put on there or to console them and to hug them it's just may I say it this way it's acknowledging the wound whether that's an emotional one or a physical one to say I see you I acknowledge eye contact very important Lisa and Joel there's an interesting experiment that was done a number of years ago it's out there on the internet on YouTube you can watch the still face baby experiment and all it is there's a doctor involved in a mother on an infant and the mother is there and on purpose it's kind of hard to watch a little bit the mother begins to be there in the baby's face then she just simply turns her face away and then completely moves away and the baby the mirroring is gone the baby overtly tries to say mirror me gets angry cries screeches acts like it doesn't care just to turn away so won't steal all the thunder that it's amazing the baby saying you're not going to mirror all scream do something to get a mirror me back and then the mother toward the end begins to mirror back and the baby goes from incredible emotional dysregulation to being emotionally regulated safe and secure and we've talked a lot about later years in rebuilding trust Trust is built over time plus provable experience when you talk about the mirroring and then the consistency that's there that's an original template of how we're wired that mom and dad would be there to be there and mirror and be present and have empathy which north's is typically don't have have empathy but to do that not perfectly but consistently yeah so I'm curious now Jim so this is maybe just a quick therapy session for Joel because with my boys I've already said hey my tendency will be to just kind of be all right you're good let's let's move on like it seems like there's a tension there and how do we know what an adequate amount of mirroring is before like we say okay I think we're good I think my answer quite frankly is gonna be quite profound that is I don't know what I want to do is have both I want to be able to mirror and know as I see if there's a risk that I will either not mirror at all just get up rub some dirt in it move on I know that that mentality to not mirror at all or to mirror and almost like mirror mirror mirror on the wall and create little narcissus which is in the narcissist research that you overpraise over praise over nurture doesn't mean everybody turns into an arse aside even earlier to a mirror and the other end that you used is to move on mirror it and then to move on you've already got the parameter set so mirror some and then move on and say let's go over here and redirect yeah okay I think Joel you can think of it like giving your child enough empathy to let them like take a sip of water like that sip of water is really good you know and maybe they even need a cup of water right but they don't need a pool because in a pool you can you know if you're not careful you can drown it's the same water that's right and so what we're all 'tom utley trying to show our children or exemplify for our children is empathy because remember that's what a narcissist is lacking they're lacking empathy so they work properly mirrored as a child in the other the other component that's very typical for a narcissist is abandonment they fear being abandoned so much we'll think about the other thing consistent presence you know and so that's what we're trying to give to our children is an appropriate amount of empathy to show them how to be empathetic and then also consistent presence showing them you don't have to live in fear of being abandoned now some children will have separation issues that's not what we're talking about but we're saying a consistent presence I leave I return I tell you this and I deliver this you know that consistency is really important so when someone is now in their adult years and they're struggling with narcissism we've talked about that a narcissist always has to have a supply that's right and what that supply is is tell me who I am and that it's good and great and amazing tell me who I am and tell me that it's good and wash rinse and repeat it's not just one time that'll last year for a while continually continually yeah and I found some research that wind that narcissistic wound or we called it the emptiness wound when it's triggered they the narcissist will be desperate to find someone to give them an immediate supply of admiration well so that's kind of interesting it also says that they will very quickly be enraged or act childlike and Jim I think you said at one point to me in in some of our counseling that we will often act out at the very age where we were once wounded developmentally stuck if you look at most narcissists that you will see that I've ever seen they are they out I have a sign of my officer says how old would you be if you didn't know how old you are and they will feel very young and I think it is because developmentally they are very young yeah well and I think most of us though I mean I don't think you have to be a narcissist to do this you know that's right I mean I can act quite childlike I know I can if I get triggered you know I mean I can pout I can slam a door you know I can talk at an elevated trich you know and I found that so fascinating that we'll often revert back to some age or stage of life where we experienced a pretty significant hurt or pain or trauma or wounding or whatever and so our reaction will often be more childlike but in the narcissist sense they become enraged depressed childlike and then they will often turn to medication or alcohol because the the the wounding is so painful and the shame runs so deep so while they may project out a lot of pride what they're experiencing inside is a lot of emptiness and a lot of shame of not having an identity of their own and Lisa with that what we've talked about this supply remember we all know this with addiction alcohol drugs whatever it may be sex addiction gambling we could go right down the line financial addiction financial disorder we call Oh tons of compulsive spending I am able as a nurse's in that moment to guarantee my supply will never run out the guarantee I could get enough alcohol and more I'll get enough drugs and more so it is that way to numb it's still the same narcissistic wound that's the hole in that person's soul but the one addiction comes in so powerfully it's not depend on another person and again not every active addict is an arsonist true but we're just talking about what they do if they get triggered Joe what does this make you think of from a theological standpoint I mean there's so much I don't know if we're gonna have enough time right now one of the big things that as to both of you were talking about mayor and presence I was even prepared for this but overwhelmed with the reality that my goodness this is exactly what God has done for us in his son Jesus and because the language of God throughout the Old Testament and New Testament is Papa its father he's a good father who loves his children well as a result of the fall what God does is he sends his own son and this is the theological term called the hypostatic Union that God that Jesus the god man was 100% God and 100% man and as he comes into humanity in a sense there is a mirroring that's taking place this is how it's possible for the writer of Hebrews to comment on Jesus saying that he was an empathetic high priest he was tempted in all the same ways he experienced all the pain pain and tragedy yet he was faithful to his father so in one sense you have Jesus whom eard perfectly right he even took the sin that the death that we were supposed to take on the cross upon himself but then here's the other interesting about Lehrer we talk about Marius here's the other interesting thing Lisa you talked about presence that there has to be a sense of presence well isn't it so interesting that Jesus says it's important for me to leave so what the Spirit of God can come and the Spirit of God now in the Old Testament just a wild right but for moments and periods of time in the New Testament we know Acts chapter 2 that the Spirit indwells inside of us because we're the temple of God and so we're the temple of God is that the presence of God is there and so now we have the presence of God Himself inside of us and I think one thing that's kind of interesting from a spiritual standpoint for me is the very thing that a narcissist think thinks will fill them the admiration the praise the presence of people you know and all of that that that very thing is actually what will MIFF misplaced will make them feel most empty yes because praise is not satisfying the way that if I were to help you Jim or give something to you I praise you that is like okay that's great but if you were then to help me or do something for me and you become less and make someone else more that's actually what's more satisfying and that's exactly what Jesus modeled yes you know the people wanted to put Jesus on a stage with a spotlight and wanted him to be this triumphant person and and Jesus because of what we needed we we needed deliverance but not just temporary deliverance yeah we needed a reigning king but not just a temporary reigning king we needed a savior but not just a temporary situational Savior and so Jesus came and flipped all over and he's like if you want to become great then you become less and if you want to be an amazing leader then wash their feet and if you want to be the ultimate friend you will lay down sometimes your needs for them needs of others and so Jesus was telling us this is how you go from being empty to full it's being full of love and compassion for other people because you have God's love and compassion that's filled you up inside yeah and I think what happens is that all gets turned the other way and the ultimate narcissist is Satan yes right absolutely ultimate narcissist is the enemy of our soul that's constantly whispering to us if you want to feel significant you need people to praise you yes if if you want to really make something of yourselves then you need to be in the spotlight and Jesus is like no that's the very thing that will empty you out even more yeah do what I modeled and that is actually what will fill you up it's really interesting in Scripture because if some of the Bible scholars and researchers now are problem the scene going huh let me do a backward search in the Bible and see if I can find narcissism in the Bible right and you may come up with which what I came up with well the word narcissism even the Greek word an RKO the actual verb is actually not used in the Bible but we talked earlier about descriptive and prescriptive and the word that is used in a synonym for narcissism is conceit and deception don't have vain conceit and do not be self deceived and I was studying a little bit on this and the idea of vain can see the circulation 6:3 if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing he deceives himself that's that's a sense of conceit all of our sources are self deceived in the secular research that's that ties right into the gut this is amazing to me right so now as I got into this theological [ __ ] I'm like okay what is this idea of deception and conceit it's actually having wisdom in your own eyes so now I go to proverbs and I just want to read some verses here proverbs 26 five answer a fool according to his own to his folly lest he be wise in his own eyes verse 12 do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes there's more hope for a fool than for him 16 the sluggard is wiser in his own eyes than seven men who can answer sensibly and then perhaps 2811 a rich man is wise in his own eyes but a poor man who has understanding will find him out and so there with the narcissus is this deception of self that when they look and they reflect and they see themselves and they're like oh I've got total wisdom and ultimately going back to Jesus the object that we Revere will absolutely end up being what we reflect so the antithesis of narcissism is Jesus rather Jesus rather than being self focused he's other focused I love Hebrews 1:3 he's the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint we've been tongue by the likeness and image Jesus is the exact imprint of hit of God's nature and he upholds the universe by the word of his power after making purification for sins he sat down at the right hand of Majesty on high and this is who Jesus was this is who Jesus is this is how he continually just advocates for us yeah and I think it is important to say you know because sometimes I'll hear people hear about different things like why did God make someone that way right so I think it's important to remember this narcissistic tendency narcissistic personality disorder it comes from a wounding not from the making and when we enter into this world that is sin soaped we're all going to experience wounds but with the narcissist it is a wounding that has completely emptied them out of any kind of identity and from a psychological standpoint Jim we've talked before that that that small percentage that actually does have the diagnostic criteria met criteria men for narcissistic personality soared from a psychological standpoint they will say you know the there's that that is a an illness a mental illness they will deal with the rest of their life you've said before you can teach them coping skills depending on their willingness but what I know is that the the savior of the world if the problem is being empty then the in and a lack of identity the truest way to be filled up and have a brand new identity is in crisis and I'm not saying you know pray enough and you'll get here I know you're too clever what I am saying is know with Jesus there is always hope and I think that's a good place to end today so what a fascinating topic right again we're not talking about this because we want you to now go out and diagnose yourself or other people but I think just creating an awareness that this is real and it is something that the more we educate ourself about different terms that we hear we won't throw it around inappropriately try and we will remember if there's someone in our life that is struggling with an enormous sense of what you may have previously called pride that's really a front for some deep deep deep shame and emptiness that they feel inside and so maybe that can help us look at people previously who you thought they don't even deserve compassion and have more compassion for them in our next therapy in theology episode we are going to talk about what do you do when you have someone in your life that is demonstrating some of what we've talked about today I think it'll be very very important thanks so much for joining us [Music]

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Length: 30min 3sec (1803 seconds)

Published: Tue Nov 05 2019