Unveiling Mormonism - Lynn Wilder

go ahead and have a seat well Mike and Lynne Wilder are here today Lynne's gonna take some time and share her story with us to introduce them there are a number of personal and professional things that they have done but really the reason why we're all here is because sometimes in life tough choices are made and those choices make all the difference let me share this one verse and then we'll have Lynn come up Matthew 19 words of Jesus and everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for my name's sake will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life Lynn welcome with me Lynn Wilder [Applause] we don't take that we turn it to God these days wow what a way to welcome me usually when I have to speak I have to go right away but to have spent that time with the Lord first makes a big difference you guys are humble and all about the Lord and I thank God for you here at Faith Community Bible I'm just tonight going to tell an amazing story of what God did you may have known or may not be aware that God appears to be on the move with the LDS folks I know from your point of view it looks like no one's leaving the church from my point of view it looks like everyone is cuz literally every day I talked to people who are finding their way to the biblical god of grace we praise him for that Wow this book I guess God did a miracle with this book I never intended to write this book I actually pitched a different book to Zondervan called Mormon Giants in the land and I thought during the election you know they'll want to know kind of about that culture of Mitt Romney and Glenn Beck well Zondervan looked at my proposal and one of the editors called me up and they said we want you to write a book but not the one you pitched to us we just want you to tell tell your family story right and I'm thinking there is no way my sins my luck my family torn apart over this whole thing out in public there is just no way I'm gonna do that right but God had another plan yeah so the first thing we always want you to know is that we love our dear Mormon people when I got saved and I'm going through this horrendous change you know I remembered her back to Micah my son who got saved first to the biblical Jesus and and just bawling and saying I'm so sorry I raised you in something that I now think wasn't true right and he was so far ahead of me he said mom don't you realize God created the whole story from the beginning if you guys hadn't gone into Mormonism for 30 years if you had been leaders if you hadn't been at BYU who would care to listen to what you have to say about the biblical Jesus right whoa what is it 1st Timothy 1:9 or 2nd Timothy 1:9 that he created us for a holy purpose right from the foundation of the earth he knew all this would happen right now if I were giving a workshop I'd kind of go through some of those things that make Mormons Mormons but if you read the book unveiling grace you'll get a really good feel for kind of the Mormon culture and how they interact with each other and how they feel toward Gentiles in the outside world etc so by the grace of God I ended up as a tenured professor at Brigham Young in the department of counseling psychology and special ed my area of study is emotional and behavioral disorders so I spent a lot of years working with juvenile delinquents and kids and gangs and drugs and folks were homeless that kind of thing that's my background I was a temple worker at the Chicago temple for 10 years I've been Relief Society president I've had a stake position I've been young women's president my husband and I taught early morning seminary and we we work Howe chairs of something called the redeem the dead committee now if you've been LD as this means something to you but it just means that we were very very very active Mormons that we loved the Mormon Church and that we believe that it was one true church on the face of the earth now do you like those pants Mike says they'll be back any day now right this is that about the time we joined the Mormon Church I had been raised Presbyterian but we never opened our Bible at home we just went to church every week right Mike had been raised Baptist they did open their Bible but it was a Hellfire damnation rural Indiana Baptist Church and he was not taking it all in so I'm 24 and he's 25 at this time and we're looking for a church well two Mormon missionaries knocked on our door we had no clue it wasn't biblical Christianity they loved on us took us in Mike at the time actually was teaching at a university and there was another professor in that department who is out to guess they started having us for lunch for dinner and loving on us and you know what that join the family thing that Mormons do is very very very effective so six months in I too was bearing testimony you know just crying I know this is the only true church and I had wonderful parents and yet in a lot of ways the Mormon Church family kind of began to supplant my own biological family I think that happens Mike and I were strong temple recommend holders after we'd been in the church about a year we got sealed in the Washington DC temple that was 13 hours from our house in Indiana that's how far we had to go the temple and we were asked to go like twice a year so for us it was kind of a big financial thing commitment in the year 1990 I had what I would consider a spiritual encounter that something that I had never had before one night about 2:00 a.m. I heard my name Lin and I sat bolt upright in bed and I had no idea who had called my name and I had never read the story of Samuel and Eagle Eye in the Old Testament and I had no idea of God could talk to you that was certainly not a Mormon teaching right next night 2 a.m. Lin third night 2 a.m. Lin 14 nights in a row I was awakened at 2:00 a.m. did not go back to bed the whole rest of the night now I'm Relief Society president which takes about 30 hours a week I've got a part-time job I'm raising four kids my husband's elderly parents are with us I'm kind of overwhelmed but that's kind of a typical Mormon mom thing right and at the end of the 14th night of no sleep I went to my knees about 6:00 in the morning and as a Mormon you're supposed to be very respectful to the Lord and call him the endow and pray in a certain order and everything well I was a little honked off and tired and I remember saying look if you have nothing to tell me just tell me cuz I can't stay up another night which now I know you can actually talk to the Lord right it's kind of nice to have this relationship but hayver I heard you need to go back to school now I honestly didn't know God could speak to you and I didn't know if it was God right and here's the conundrum the Mormon prophet had just said women come home from your typewriters now we had computers by then but that's an old expression in the church from the 1950s or something women come home from your typewriters because we were supposed to have lots of children and not be working well I was working at and a half and a homeless shelter I was Relief Society president at the time and ten of my women rose up went to the stake president complained about me because I was working a day and a half in a homeless shelter when the Prophet had said to stay home but now wait a minute then this somebody says to me I'm supposed to go back to school well I already had a master's degree so if I went back and got a doctorate why would that do that probably would give me this academic career and then what would that do with all my Mormon you know womanhood stuff but this is God right he's setting up this amazing story because he's had something in mind from the beginning of the earth because he knew that Mormons winners were gonna start coming out of the church so Sandra Tanner has been reaching you know Mormons since she and Gerald got saved in 1959 I think she said she was one of the original people reaching to Mormons trying to help them understand biblical faith all those years kind of out there by themselves right and no fruit of their labor and then she and then Gerald died of Alzheimer's and she said to me recently she said I just fall and thank the Lord for the fruit that I've been able to see recently right from all of these Labor's in teaching people about Jesus well the whole of it was I did end up going back to school actually took one class and didn't like it didn't go back got in a bad automobile accident to do that God reminded me I needed to go back to school I did finished in 99 and then I thought oh I know why God told me to do that he needs me at BYU right well actually they did kind of need me at BYU the I get in trouble because they don't have enough female faculty something like 2,000 faculty and 40 female faculty something like that BYU yeah so of course the general authority who interviewed me and vetted my testimony said that of course they they needed me at BYU I eventually taught diversity at BYU and then I thought well maybe God sent me there to fix the racism in the church oh boy God that was not his plan this is our family that's mount Timpanogos in the back of you're familiar with Utah gentleman on the left Josh if you've read the book Josh was excommunicated at one point for drinking when he went to college second son the tall one piano performance major matt has been an atom's road for 11 years Micah's on the right and Mike started Adams Road actually and then Katy ended up marrying one of Micah's old missionary companions who came to know Jesus because Micah shared with him and he's also and Adams right now all this son served a mission in Russia he actually converted a world war ii general Russian general to Mormonism Matt served his mission in Denmark and he did a lot of his piano in Copenhagen Micah was headed to Mexico City I don't know if you know but within the Mormon culture it's kind of a step up to be able to go on a foreign mission as if you've been kind of super righteous you know so here we are we had three sons and on Mormon you know foreign missions we just felt like we were doing really well God had but God right but God so Mike is in the Missionary Training Center learning Spanish getting ready to go to Mexico City and while he's in the MTC playing basketball all of a sudden his lung collapsed he said there was no physical content contact he has no idea why collapse we do right God had a plan look how zealous he is for the gospel it's got a missionary badge on in the emergency room not funny this was my condition at the time and certainly my cos I love this Paul says this about the Jews for I bear them witness they have a zeal for God and that is true about Mormons but not according to knowledge for being ignorant of the righteousness of God and seeking to establish their own righteousness right through their own works they did not submit to God's righteousness boy when I started reading stuff like that in the New Testament it just blew me away so here's a picture of Micah on his mission he ended up in Florida because his lung collapsed and had medical problems how awesome was that he got to go to the happiest place on earth and it's full of evangelical Christians well if you don't know Micah's testimony you probably want to look it up on a an unveiling grace video which you can find on Facebook or on YouTube but the long and short of this was Michael was so zealous for Mormonism he tried to convert pastors thinking then that their whole congregation would come to Mormonism and he'd be the greatest Mormon missionary ever the first pastor that they made an appointment with and went to teach was he's great friend of ours now large african-american Pentecostal gentleman who had once tried out for the NFL Oh Mike and his companion teach him the gospel and like I said on the way out the door he throws his arms around him and Pentecostal style and starts praying over him that God would break the spirit of blindness over this young elder how interesting was that he said it really freaked him out he'd never seen anything like that before right that definitely is not what they're used to and Mormonism and then the second pastor was a Baptist pastor who listened to their entire presentation and then just kindly told them I know you're sincere about your faith but that is not the gospel is taught in the New Testament and that he opened the Bible and he and Micah said he remembers one of the things he read was Ephesians 2:8 9 saved by grace not by works lest anyone should boast he never heard that before right when I taught the Bible in seminary that wasn't one of the verses they had to memorize so Micah ended up reading the New Testament because this pastor challenged him to do that and he promised him if he read the New Testament with the eyes of a child that God would change his life and he would never be the same that he would see what the true gospel was and he would never be the same well Micah says he read the New Testament about a dozen times over the next 18 months of his mission until he came to know this is Mormonism this is biblical faith they're not the same I need to choose he chose the biblical Jesus went to his knees and his missionary apartment gave his life to Jesus three weeks before the end of his mission and then as God's little sense of humor would have it got up from his knees the phone rings and his mission president invites him to stand in front of about 60 or 80 other missionaries and bear testimony of what he's learned over the last two years yeah you should hear him tell this story it's pretty funny well he bore a beautiful testimony of Jesus Christ hanging on the cross seeing you paying paying for your sins now remember Micah didn't have incursians to talk to it was just Micah and the Bible and the Holy Spirit and so he'd just come to know these things by reading the word our ministry promotes this as something that's living and active and that can work with people it doesn't return void right that's what we're told well he board this wonderful testimony but he forgot to say the Mormon Church was true and he forgot to say Joseph Smith was a prophet he forgot to say that he believed that the Book of Mormon was true right two days later he gets called in by his mission president and they grill him on his faith for several hours take his temple recommend away from him tell him he has the spirit of the devil in him because he believes he's saved by grace he said I did admit to them I didn't think I needed the Prophet between me and God because I read that Jesus is the only mediator between man and God how's that I mean he read the word he trusted the word well Mike and I are at home when we get a phone call that says they're sending our son home from his mission dishonourably because he has a spirit of the devil he's an antichrist literally they called him a knee from Alma one if you know anything about the Book of Mormon we were shocked like my Ma's Ellis kid right can't believe it but this is but God right and you know when Micah was put on that plane and sent home he was babbling about something I had no idea what he was talking about I don't know what kind of an encounter he had with God that morning that he said mom there's going to be a band and I'm going to have a ministry he wasn't even 21 years old yet from the day he walked away that's exactly what happened he started out of the road and they've been doing their thing for 11 years and in that time God has brought lots of Mormons out of the church many of them to atheism many tagged Gnosticism but also those who are willing to hear that they might not have had the same faith and that this faith might have some answers for them yeah I wish I could show you his testimony but we're kind of short at time so I won't do that this was a major problem that I had with what Micah had done he now completely trusted the Bible but has the Mormon I did not write we believe the Bible to be the Word of God as far as it's translated correctly so it's sometimes mistranslated but you never know where so how can you trust it and that was my exact thought about the Bible so when Micah was home the church tried to excommunicate him but Mike and I would not take Micah in because we were completely confused about why he was in so much trouble okay so he professed a God of grace well we thought we had the same God as the Christians so why is that such a problem for you maybe his doctrines a little off why don't you just love him back why are you looking at him as an enemy that was a real you know conundrum for us again thank God it happened right because Mormonism really does see things differently than Christianity so could I trust the Bible this is what Micah did he he challenged his parents he was only home two days and we put him on a plane and got him out of Utah because we didn't want him to be asked to communicate it until we figured out what are you doing wrong you know because then we could fund is punishing too I guess so we got him out of Utah but before he got on the plane to go back to Florida where he had a job to manage a bed-and-breakfast he begged mom and dad just begged us please read the New Testament with the eyes of a child the exact challenge that he had been given okay so here's how stubborn and prideful I am I'm at BYU I know everything right I don't trust the Bible I'm not going to the Bible to read the words of Jesus well I I do believe the words of Jesus so I'll go to the Book of Mormon because it's the most correct book of the earth and I'm gonna open it and find the words of Jesus and then I'll figure this whole thing out right Oh where's the Jesus in the Book of Mormon Oh prophet said he said prophet study said direct words from Jesus red-letter words from Jesus where are they 3rd Nephi there's one little section where Jesus supposedly after he was resurrected visited the people in Jerusalem and then came visited the people in the Book of Mormon and he spoke and I thought well here it is these are Jesus words this is the most brilliant thing beatitudes right out of Matthew 5 that's all he had to say now I remember thinking well maybe Mike that's right I guess if I want to hear the words of Jesus I'm gonna have to go to the Bible because that's where they are but because they don't trust the Bible and I'm a researcher right I'm only gonna go to Jesus words because that's a primary source and I'll look at that and see what they say and then uh that makes sense to me then I'll look at the words of the Apostles because that's the secondary source right and then maybe I'll trust that I started in the book of John and the very first thing I read let's see you probably know all this about Mormons and their Bible this you may not be aware of this this is right out of the Book of Mormon this is why I did not trust the Bible it says after the Bible had gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church which to Mormons is the Catholic Church and then the Protestant church that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the Bible which is the book of the Lamb of God and because of these things taken away and exceedingly many do stumble yay in so much that Satan has great power over them that's what I believed about the people who believed the Bible because that's what the Book of Mormon said right so there's lots of evidence and yet I started to read the Bible the very first thing I read was John 1:1 in the beginning was the word I'm going I think that's Jesus and the Word was with God and the Word was God Jesus wasn't God from the beginning he worked his way to godhood Wow right there in the first verse I ever read there's a conflict with Mormonism right why didn't I ever see that before and then I started reading all kinds of other verses Jesus own words I really think when you're talking with Mormons or if you're ever trying to have gospel discussions with Mormons if you can use the very words of Jesus even if they'll say to you I don't really trust the Bible we actually had dinner with a gentleman from BYU Idaho a couple nights ago and he said write to me I don't trust the Bible and I said well do you trust the words of Jesus well maybe well how about if I just pull the words of Jesus out on whatever topic we're talking about and that seemed that seemed a little more believable to him right okay so those are the words of Jesus having an earth will pass away but my words will never pass away and I thought are you kidding me God's big enough to keep his word together down through all time and I began to think wow that's a big God that's not necessarily the God that I know and then I began to learn things about the evidence for the Bible this is another topic when you're dealing with Mormons you're gonna need to talk about don't we don't cram things down anybody's throat but why can't you just pepper your conversation with Wow you know I went to Israel and I saw this stone that had house of David on it it's just amazing all the archaeological evidence twenty-five thousand are animal evidence oh gosh she's got secular historical sources you've got DNA evidence the evidence is just everywhere and it occurred to me as I'm reading the Bible and I'm learning about this evidence to support the Bible Wow it's as if God wants people to be saved it's as if this God doesn't have secrets he wants people to find him again there was another big aha moment cuz the God of Mormonism had lots of secrets and only only certain people could do this and do that and do that and I always wondered even if the Mormon Church does have almost 16 million members how many of those actually have temple recommends and are going to earn eternal life with God in the next probably a really small percentage of them right and then I thought really does God really not want want people to find him so these are kind of things you can talk about but again you're never going to shove things down people's throats who don't believe the way you do you're gonna be having conversations and planting seeds and continually asking questions fulfilled prophecies when Jesus came how many of those do you know can you pull out a couple for somebody that asks you what did Jesus fulfill that was prophesied in the Old Testament this is kind of basic Christian stuff we need to know do we have any manuscripts for the Book of Mormon the Book of Mormon came from supposedly gold plates which got taken to heaven there's no original manuscript right we have more than 5,800 and this is just in Greek this is just in Greek if you look at Syriac and Aramaic and all these other Middle Eastern languages you've got bits and pieces of 25,000 manuscripts hello so if something was mistranslated if I've got 800 copies of the same passage do you think I can figure out if it got mistranslated somewhere these are not realities God has made evidence scientific evidence you cannot let a theist say that religion is over here and science is over here and never should they meet are you kidding me God's evidence for the Bible and the things he teaches and the things he says is just overwhelming and science and religion do work together at least in God's economy right cuz he's a big God and he's able to do that kind of stuff so these are the kind of things you'll want to talk about nobody ever told me that when I was 30 years in Mormonism nobody told me the Bible was reliable or ever tried to step into a conversation about why it was well as soon as Micah challenged me and I went to look Mormon and then ended up in the Bible I just had this insatiable hunger because this was not Mormonism the whole so this is a picture of the sheep and this is me all of a sudden paying a 10 Chinn wait a minute Mike took this picture in Israel huh yeah I started reading things like this in the Bible God does not live in temples made by human hands I said are you kidding me I gave 10 years to working in a temple I went 20 years to doing genealogy so I could save my dad because the doctrine of covenants says us without them can't be saved they without us can't be saved talking about the dead that's why we were co-chairs of the redeem the Dead Committee saving your dead is important and yet I started reading things in the back the Old Testament about necromancy right seances there wasn't a good thing to try to get the dead to come back and yet when you go to the Mormon temple I expected my dead ancestors to appear to me and thanked me for doing their work and for saving them whoa we've got some warnings about that in the Bible and then I hit John 6:44 and God hit me over the head no one comes to Jesus unless the father who sent me draws him and I knew something freaky was happening to me this was another major concept that I think is helpful when you're talking to Mormon friends Mormonism is prosperity gospel the Book of Mormon says if you are righteous you know if you keep the commandments and do all the right things then you'll be blessed both temporally and spiritually let me tell you a story Micah went on a ward Trek one time when he was 16 he came back with Rocky Mountain spotted fever because he'd been bit by a tick 21 days he stood between life and death now most of the youth in our Mormon Ward had been on that Trek the doctor and our Ward had been on that tuck he was the one who told me he thought he had Rocky mountain spotted fever and yet I could not get anybody from my neighborhood to come give him a proper oil annointed blessing which you need in Mormonism if he's gonna get well right and after a while it occurred to me that if you have some kind of a health problem or mental health problem or a crisis that's financial or someone gets cancer that according to the Book of Mormon you weren't righteous somebody did something wrong do you see what an opportunity that is for Christians to step in and love on Mormons who were having a tough time and who were probably not being gathered around by their Mormon Ward it's a wonderful opportunity I highly recommend that you pray with your Mormon friends I didn't ever pray with people when I was Mormon except in my official capacities and callings right I never said just somebody is there something that I can pray with you about I think that is one of the most impactful things you can do is and also to show folks how you talk to Jesus as if he's a friend right that's not something Mormons do they have a very formal way that they need to talk to the Lord but I've seen Christians pray and just ball and just be on their knees humble and and I think that your prayer and your relationship with Jesus which is personal is very impactful but we don't open our mouths about it right how many times do you go to work and say oh man the scripture hit me this morning I was reading in Isaiah and why not why isn't God just a normal part of our conversation why don't we say you know I prayed and prayed got this thing for the last two months and then the craziest thing happened why can't that just be part of our conversation why can't we let people know what our God is capable of right in the most loving positive amazing way because I can tell you this you can tear down a Mormon faith through history church history through the character of Joseph Smith through the fact that there was racism and whatever else that it doesn't bring people to Jesus do you know that possibly between 50 to 80 percent of people that are leaving Mormonism are going to agnosticism why they thought they had the same Jesus you did because that's what they were told so if they decided this Jesus is impotent and not worth it then certainly yours isn't because you have the same one do you see how that plays in a warming brain see what how important it is that we talk about grace and offer who are jesus' but this blew me away I'm starting to read stuff in the Bible like when Jesus is in you they're gonna hate you because they hate him it's like that's not the gospel of Mormonism right very different gospel this is that here it is from the Book of Mormon those that keep the commandments of God are blessed in all things both temporally and spiritually I want to make sure I watch yeah yeah this was the other one that blew me away was John 1:1 I actually went looked it up in the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible I don't know if you know but Joseph Smith went through the entire Bible and fixed everything that was wrong with it it's called the Joseph Smith translation Mormons don't use it but in their King James it's in the footnotes so if something weird like John 1:1 comes up you go to the footnotes it'll take you to the Joseph Smith version and Joseph Smith actually fix John 1:1 would you like to know what it says in the beginning was the gospel preached through the son and the gospel was the word and the Word was with the son and the son was with God and the son was of God I have no idea what that means but it's not in the beginning was the word right the other thing I realized John 1 is the whole nature of God that whole first chapter of John and Joseph Smith changed the entire first nature of God the whole first chapter of John which in my brain went oh he's changed the nature of God and that was the first time it occurred to me you we might be looking at a different God well of course we are one's a Trinity trying the other is three separate people think about what it's like for Mormons to have a God the Father that has a body of flesh and bone he can't be omnipresent he's not omniscient he's not omniscient he's not omnipresent and he's not uh and he's not omnipotent he's not all-powerful he's not all-knowing and can't be all places at once he's just a glorified man so and where does them 1 I pray to God I never expected him to answer unless maybe I was dying and there were 20 people on the earth dying at the same time and he could get to me in time he's a man right limited by all those things we'll think through lying in bed at night and think through how that limits him and then think through how different your God is and what he offers it there's doesn't he's spirit he can be all places at once the other thing is he doesn't have to eat or sleep which in Mormon God has to do Mormon God has he needs to have sex and probably several wives very very very different God so why not offer yours what did you say we want to go until let's see six thirty seven thirty we want to go to eight right so how about if I go about five more minutes and then we do a QA because I want this to be personal for you and for you to be able to have an opportunity to ask whatever questions you know how when the missionaries first come to your door one of the first things they teach is there was a great apostasy are you aware of this okay so they say when the original Twelve Apostles died the church died too and it went into this great apostasy and when the Catholic Church rose up it was an apostate church when the Protestants rose up they were an apostate Church and Jesus original Church never came back until 1812 when heavenly Father in Jesus Christ appear to Joseph Smith right look at this first words of Jesus on this rock typically in the scriptures the rock is Jesus Mormons say the rock is revelation to their prophets but but on this rock Jesus says I'm going to build my church and the gates of hell prevail against it so when missionaries teach me this I'll say great apostasy I'm confused because of something I read in the Bible will you read it out loud to all of us and tell us what you think it means I did this to a little sister missionary several months back and now she's reading this on this rock I'll build my church in the case of Hell won't prevail against it you just got beat read you could just see the conviction and she just said I I have I don't know well we don't know everything you know we don't know everything well you got a problem in the words of Jesus right or the exact opposite of what Mormonism teaches and so that is one way to kind of go after things the cross is a whole nother topic to Mormons you know don't use the cross and then this whole idea of how to determine truth right Mormons believe that if you have a burning in your bosom or you feel a feeling then that's how you test truth all Christians do sometimes have spiritual experiences possibly right but we also have reason on our side our scriptures are consistent they're logical they hang together and that was another thing that just blew me away the message is clear in the Bible it's repeated over and over and over and there's no denying what it is Mormon scripture doesn't have that they actually have scriptures that say the exact opposite of each other so you never tested or really trusted your scriptures you always went to your feelings right I didn't know either till I read the Bible that Satan could counterfeit those feelings right so you've got a real you've got a real problem here this isn't one of my favorite verses and I have Mormons read this Matthew 15:19 again these are the words of Jesus out of the heart come evil thoughts things like false testimony you know if they're really thinking they'll say you mean you can bear testimony and cry and be emotional and it can be a false testimony yeah because the God of the Bible says come let us reason together right test all things Mormons do not question things they follow their prophets I read the Bible for ten months just crazy day and night couldn't put it down literally it was funny all of a sudden makeup doesn't matter going to work doesn't matter nothing my husband always says and I had to know the yard while you were eating bonbons and reading the Bible right when I hid this in John these are the very scriptures that testify of me yet you refuse to come to me to have life Wow you can have an intellectual knowledge but the whole purpose of all this right is to bring you to Jesus and then I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh unto the father but by me so one cold October night after my high school aged daughter and husband had gone to bed I had read in the Old Testament that the Jews used to literally lie face down before God to be humble and I laid face down on the carpet and I said these words these words are in the Bible I didn't know that till seven years later I said I'm yours save me I was talking to the Jesus for the Bible the weirdest thing that began to happen was the world looked different to me It was as if it had more color you know like I actually got I end up photography cuz it was like I was seeing all these things that I hadn't seen before you know a lot of times Christians telling you if you want to give your life to Jesus you have to know you're a sinner you have to confess your sins and then you cross over right oh I was Mormon I was prideful I had a temple recommend I thought I was doing okay when I gave my life to Jesus and they were so ugly that he dealt with one by one and it took a year and a half for God to walk me through my pride through through my self-righteousness through this and this and this and this but oh what a change of heart what a change of heart so Mike and I are two also in ministry this is Sandra Tanner's problem she she got us on a John Ankerberg show one time and we ended up with a ministry I've now written three books one called seven reasons we left Mormonism wrote with my husband and then unveiling grace which continues to be a best-seller it's been out for years and it's actually sold more each year and we pray that unveiling grace now has even brought Muslims to Jesus anyone who's in a legalistic place and wants to know that it's all about grace it's all about what he did know what we can do that is helpful we have a third book coming out in November because God laid on my heart all those folks who have left Mormonism our kind of academics feel like science is their God now they're naturalist but they're atheist and so we wrote a book specifically to them the very last part of that book I called so you still want to be your own God yeah let's open for questions shall we and hopefully my husband will come in if he doesn't please go meet him at the book table husband of 40 three years we've been through all kinds of craziness all of our family is out of the Mormon Church now three of our children are in ministry and and they all brought their spouses out as well so it's amazing amazing God we we just have one mic maybe we can take a few questions in each section and just move great sure have you want to do it any questions over in this area be bold you're breaking the ice I find that when I talk to Mormons a lot of them don't know as much as I know about Mormonism write about the details they think I'm crazy when I start telling them that there are 26 scriptures that say dark skin is a curse all kinds of crazy stories coming out because Mitt Romney is running for president and yet it's right in their scriptures and yet the problem with Christians trying to witness that way in Mormon scriptures is really hard to know Mormon scriptures well enough so that when they bring that up to be able to pull their scripture up we you know Mike and I've done it a number of times and then say well that confuses me because DNC 132 says x y&z do you mind reading this out loud and telling me what you think so just planting that that that's in their own scriptures their website by the way says their scriptures is pure truth and utterly reliable and it says things like you can become a god and it says things like polygamy is an eternal principle will be lived in the millennium and in the next life by the righteous right and it says 26 times in the Book of Mormon and the pearl of great price dark skin is curse it still says in the Book of Mormon that if you turn from unrighteous to righteous your skin turns from dark to white still says that in the Book of Mormon there is an example of some dark-skinned Lamanites who joined the righteous Nephites and it says they're darks their skin turned from dark twink yeah I didn't know that was in the scriptures I taught seminary all those years but here's here's the thing where they teach their own people they use manuals don't open the scriptures too much and read them in context okay so Mormons will say Ezekiel 37 2 sticks in one hand that's the Book of Mormon and that's the Bible right they always say that you read the very next verse that says the two sticks are Judah and Israel they tend not to read things in context so sometimes that helps clarify yeah the other thing about those manuals is when I taught with the manuals they would cherry pick scriptures that supposedly supported Mormon doctrine and put them right in the manual so you never had to open your scriptures and read what was before and after it you just read the manual and read the scripture read the manual read description welcome to the family much larger family by the way straight from LDS resources and possibly that I could use scripture and manuals if you look up all of their manuals are right like they're sunday-school manual they're actually preach my gospel you can find is the manual at the missionary shoes you can find all of those online and so those are official materials you know supported and put out by the church curriculum committee so yeah you can use those as well but again don't tear down their faith and take them know where you have to be at least for I would say for every negative thing you hit against well let me turn to research if you have a relationship with somebody and you make seven negative statements in one positive you're gonna have a heck of a bad relationship right if you make seven positive statements in one negative they're gonna be more likely to listen to that one negative right so if you're continually hitting against their stuff it doesn't take them to Jesus it just destroys their faith in their stuff you still the Great Commission is not about destroying people's faith you know false god necessarily it's about offering the god of grace and so you need to be articulate about how to do that right when you know what when Mormons bear their testimonies they just bawl right I know the church is true I know it's very much when's the last time you were an emotional testimony of Jesus that would in any way affect them it's an interesting thing to think about right what is it that you have to offer them that's better well now they say it never was about caffeine because now they actually just this last week or so got coke on be where you Idaho's campus and BYU's campus I'm suspecting that's because Mitt Romney got caught on camera with Billy Graham with a diet coke but I don't know it's because of something from Doctrine and Covenants 89 called the word of wisdom they actually have a lot of dietary restrictions and do you know that there are 10 passages of Scripture in the New Testament alone that teach against dietary restrictions I didn't know they were there till I went read the New Testament all my friends group like 40 of us and I'm like one of two Christians are you both for six years now but I just I just don't know what to do anymore like I mean besides praying I just don't know what steps to take like cuz I've been inviting them to church like I've gone to their church services like I've pointed out you know I've talked about there's manuscripts that mean the Bible reliable and I don't know I just don't know what to do I think this is really one impactful thing the scripture says that God is always at his work right what is the work of God what is that work God's at 24/7 because he doesn't have to eat sleep or have wives it says in the Bible the work of God is to draw people to Jesus okay so God is continually continually continually drawing people to Jesus so say you know a hundred people believe it or not God is going to be working with some of those people already softening their hearts bringing them to Jesus right but you don't know who it is because you don't have those spiritual eyes so I think one of the most impactful things is to ask God in prayer to show you who he's already working with so that you can step into the gap right this is the most this is one of the most dramatic things that ever happened to me when I first became a Christian I was in a Bible study Henry Blackaby is experiencing God and they bring that scripture up and they tell you you're supposed to pray and ask God who he's working with around you so I pray that on a Monday night Mike and I do and I do not expect an answer I don't know this big God very next day I go to work so I'm professor and I'm going down the the just a hallway and there are offices and this lady says to me hey you come here I dreamed about you last night now immediately my brain goes oh I'm sure that's nothing to do with my prayer is just coincidence right I'm sure it has nothing to do with Jesus so I sit down and and she wants to tell me your dreams she says you and I go to this a conference in Washington DC and you are speaking kind of like you're leading a tour group and she said this weird voice in my head keeps saying what she says you need to hear and where she goes you need to go so I'm trying to keep up with you and I can't keep up with you and so I get in a taxi and I'm screaming at the driver you see that that lady what she says I need to hear and where she goes I need to go so she said the taxi driver finally gets up to where you are and then I try to open the door in there locked and I'm pounding on the door screaming what she says I need to hear where she goes on me to go and then I woke up why do you think about that dream my brain went can't be right can't be God I said know what to think about that I walked out right go home that day and I'm telling like this weird thing oh you don't you don't think there's anything to do with prayer right three days later I'm in my office and the lady gonna come stomping down slams my door sits down next to me gets right up in my face and says I don't think you understand I have been praying about a personal relationship with Jesus and I think he's sending me to you with a two-by-four so I'm a new Christian like I don't know how to I don't know how to witness I don't know how to bring somebody to Jesus well no I just say right so I thought I'll just ask us some questions so like did you ever go to church if you ever read your Bible do you know anything about Jesus she says well now get it I've worked with this lady for years but I don't know her personally she says about ten years ago I was in law school in Europe and I joined the Mormon Church but we never know that big God here is a woman with Mormonism in her that needs to be deprogrammed and yet she needs to come to know Jesus and God immediately connected us Mike and I went to church with them for a year and a half until they got into Bible studies were stable got baptized moved on with their lives right that's how real this God is this kind of stuff you should be doing in your life this kind of stuff you need to tell people about because in a false faith their God can't do this stuff right now I'm not saying God doesn't ever reach out to people in a false faith certainly he reaches out to anybody who calls for him yeah a few more questions here then move over there yeah this really isn't a question but to the people who ever suggested that they have friends who are Mormons and there are not sure how to reach out to them let me tell them that I have used a Bible study called creation to Christ and you know it seems for some reason that Mormons as well as just your basic non-christian if you say would you like to do a Bible study with me it's surprising how willing they are and this Bible study you know does nothing negative does tell them what the Bible yes says about Christianity or about Jesus and by the third or fourth lesson I've had people tell me who were raised in the Mormon Church I have to make a decision because this there's obviously amen see I believe if you'll get Mormons into the Bible the Holy Spirit opens their eyes to the conundrums you don't have to hit them over the head with them I'm not even sure you have to present the CES letter or all the history to them you want them to come to Jesus you don't want them to run away from Mormonism right you want them to come to Jesus so you have to be articulate at offering something better and that takes relationship that takes staying with somebody a long time when people go through that transition out of Mormonism I was the biggest wreck you ever saw because how long it lasted five years you'd look at me and I'd bawl I was just a basket case because you lose your entire identity your identity is Mormon and now you don't know who you are in Christ until you've read enough of the word and walked with God enough to see him do some of those supernatural things like he did with my friend at work you know Mormons you can tear down their faith but then they'll say oh I'll just stay here because all my family's here and it's cultural well you haven't done your work because you haven't offered something better that makes it worth it for them even to step away makes sense yeah I was wondering since you've come out of Mormonism and come into this Christian faith are there things culturally that you think you miss from Mormonism or things culturally that you see in Christianity that you think man this is really not good I'm kind of wondering how that change has been and have you retained some things from like your Mormon culture that that maybe are better I there are some wonderful things about Mormons they are moral typically they're clean-cut there are strong families but every one of those things I've also mentioned can be idols and one of the issues we have in trying to help young couples out of Mormonism is their Mormon parents are in their lives daily daily daily they know everything about every kid when they're sick they're there to help them if some kids throwing up they know everything about their sex life third is that healthy no to me that's family as an idol right and the husband and the wife should be the number one relationship without all of those extended people having to have opinions about everything that goes on in their lives I don't I don't miss anything no I the God that I walk with has he is a redeemer and he puts together families that are in the family of God that may not be biological but much more mentally and emotionally healthy if you need a mom because your mom kicked you out God can get you a much more amazing mom just perfectly match to your personality so there aren't many things that I would say that I miss no body of Christ do I have any criticisms about the body of Christ I love the body of Christ we all 2.3 billion of us have the same core beliefs and then one's a hand ones and I once a foot we worship differently we give lots of options it's an amazing place to be if you don't you should believe that no one else is gonna come where you are right we're all over the body Christ we love it I was wondering where sure where your books selling and where your internet hits coming from in this country North America where's your market well worldwide I mean there are Amazon's in most of the countries and there are people leaving Mormonism when we first started in ministry I some we'd help somebody out in Australia or the East Coast or Ireland or something like that mm-maybe four years ago it's like God's just reaching into the strongholds it'd be Utah Utah Utah you don't you know wow and even some of these small stronghold towns that are the top of the mountains and everybody's Mormon and there's one little Baptist Church with five people in it people are getting saved right I really think God is on the move and sometimes he's saving people and they don't even know what happened to them I mean it's obviously calling his remnant out got a phone call about four years from a guy in Spanish Fork who said I don't know what's the matter with me I can't put the Bible down my wife and my bishop say I've gone crazy on my career like oh my goodness the Holy Spirit savings guy doesn't know what's a factory can't put the Bible down his wife still Mormon his bishop so more reading he's saved as can be and they're still married yeah wonderful I think we're gonna do two more questions over here and the Wilders aren't gonna go anywhere right afterward yeah I'm not mistaken so we can still chat with them but let's do two more questions corporately and then if you do need to head off you can we have an active hand over here let's see she wants it you're gonna get the mic I don't know how far I can go and still be heard I guess I can come over here not quite sure has a question we were in a co-op last year a Christian co-op and a young boy I don't know how old Garrett does maybe 10 years old comes and tells us that he's going to be baptized and so he said great can we come in the LDS Church so his missionaries had come to his home and they had have converted to Mormonism some my new they've now left the coop we're not we moved States and we're no longer it we're no longer there my point is what do we she had taught herself not grown up the mom not grown up in a Christian home claims self-taught herself Christianity sees no difference between the two I have read your book and plenty of others on Mormonism but it just seems like she likes the checklist she likes to know good right yeah I mean you can try to get her into the Bible with you but this is what I do with the unveiling grace books sometimes I've gotten very strong Mormons to read it but this is how I do I'll say you know I met this I heard this lady talk and she wrote this book your LDS you're an expert in the LDS faith right you know what you believe do you mind reading this book and telling me are there any errors in it is this what you believe and would you like to ever get together and talk about anything and I've had stake presidents read the book and just right all over the margin and then call me back and want to have these conversations but you've choked down the gospel the good news right plus you've learned a whole lot about your faith and your scriptures that you probably didn't know so I mean that's one possible thing the most gentle thing to start with is that unveiling grace video that goes with the book because basically it's just emotional testimonies and people's experiences and that resonates with Mormons because that's how you they believe you you decide what's true right yeah let's do somebody over the age of 10 you come to be right afterwards how's that have you ever seen this scenario in Reverse where a Protestant or a classical Christian theist comes to the Mormon Church and converts and then gives their yes what did they say how did they present that what is the information that is told internally then well they're heroes certainly they're heroes and the more you can persecute them the better because in Mormonism that is a confirmation that they're in the true church right so if you're persecuting them in any way or they feel like you're persecuting them they'll be telling that testimony from the pulpit and they'll be getting lots of love and they'll get a substitute mom and dad and yeah they love I've been dealing with an african-american gentleman in Seattle for several years he knows the church isn't true but a missionary picked him up one time when he was about to commit suicide in a park and he has this emotional attachment right and they just make him a hero he told me he spoke 12 times in sacrament one year and then he spoken state conference and the family I mean especially if you're vulnerable and you don't have family or there's been a death there's something and they gather around you and love you and provide for you and give you a job and all of that I I knew a gentleman who recently joined the Mormon Church in Phoenix because no one was coming to his business and he joined the church and all of a sudden he had lots of business and lots of his Christian wives just freakin but yeah not joint they take care of each other well probably better than Christians but that whole thing about what's different between the body of Christ and Mormonism and Mormonism you're always looking this way you're looking to the arm of flesh and men to tell you if you're doing well to give you a temple recommend so you can climb the ladder right and so you have these really strong relationships with people around you one of the things I realized when I became a Christian was I became a lot more independent I didn't really care what other people thought my relationship was here so I think Christians are a much more bold hopefully an independent lot who can always go to the Lord in prayer who can always trust him for what's going on who don't have to worry about anything right because that's a sin and you don't have to continually worry about what people think that's a positive thing if you can get that message across right but Mormons do always worry about and always want people around them and when they first get saved and in the Christian body they feel like people ignore them well people don't have that need like they have had from where they came from from the culture they came from [Applause] now some of you mentioned that you were raised in LDS homes let's do a quick little show of hands how many of you at one time or another lived in a Mormon household okay we got some hands awesome how many of you this is not your home Church faith is not your home Church okay a lot of hands all of you are welcome guests you are welcome here anytime we do hope that you connect with a gospel believing Church and we hope that you stay connected with the Wilders family and their ministry and you have a Sunday School class where you take teach about why don't I say a prayer and then we'll be excused father in heaven thank you so much for your word doing amazing things in this country we ask Lord that all up and down i 15 your spirit would be at work thank you for lynn and mike and their ministry we pray for them in adams road that they would just carry the gospel in jesus name amen

Channel: Faith Community Bible Church

Views: 2,212

Rating: 4.7647057 out of 5

Keywords: Church, Jesus Christ, Boise, Idaho, Sermons, Jason Wolin, Bible, God, satisfiedinjesus.org

Id: RaZJIFFi_oM

Length: 76min 16sec (4576 seconds)

Published: Wed Oct 04 2017