John MacArthur explains Isaiah 53 to Ben Shapiro

[Music] and now we get to the bestest of the bestest stuff welcome to wretched Phil Johnson executive director grace to you you can also hear his sermons one place calm working daily with dr. John MacArthur who appeared on the Ben Shapiro program well it was a wide-ranging conversation props to Ben Shapiro this this he'd asked the questions zipped it and let dr. John MacArthur talk about issues like the Enlightenment what about some of the objections to the Bible he gave a church history lecture if talked about politics and government and then we get to what I think was just the absolute cream Ben Shapiro he asked what's the difference between Judaism and Christianity the same God who wrote the Old Testament wrote the New Testament that's my conviction the scripture has one author and I need to say this I am a Christian because of the Old Testament without the Old Testament I I don't know whether I could believe the New Testament and that may sound strange to you but how do I know that Jesus is the Messiah if I don't have all the predictions of the Old Testament defining him when he shows up no I don't know what first jumps to mind for me when I hear that at the right time God sent forth his son some people have pondered why did God wait so long why 4000 years well it's for the sake of the Old Testament so that we had prophecies and Jesus was an ax lunatic running around yelling I'm the Messiah they'd have no way of knowing if it weren't for the Old Testament that's right go for four at the right time send forth his son born of a virgin born under the law to redeem those under the curse of the law so without the laws without the prophecies without the history all of that established Jesus claims yeah I love the way he said it I am a Christian because of the Old Testament and and I get instantly what he means I totally understand it and it is the the polar opposite of what Andy Stanley said you and I talked about that in an in a recent episode we should unhitch from the Old Testament you unhitched the Old Testament yeah you ain't got much of a New Testament that's right as is what you don't have the conversation to me now just did he think about this in advance do you know in preparation he did we talked about it the week before he told me just about a week before this that Ben Shapiro invited him to be on I said really cuz I listened to Ben Shapiro and I know these weekend broadcasts that he does their long discussions in more than an hour and and I know he's a great interviewer he asks the questions and lets his his subject talk and my comment to John was this is important and it's huge it's not this is not a minor thing this will this will reach a very large audience and he's Jewish he has you know different interpretations of Scripture you better be prepared for what he's going to ask and I think John also spent some time listening to previous interviews and things like that so he had a pretty good idea he listens to Ben Shapiro occasionally as well so he had a pretty good idea of who he was and you know what he might ask yeah because I couldn't help but think that John had been Shapiro's Jewishness in mind oh no question when he got to Isaiah 53 you read Isaiah 53 and it's it's the biography of the Messiah the servant of the Lord and it's it lays out his arrival and his rejection and his death and his resurrection and his ascension and his a coronation it explains the gospel in more specific terms than any chapter in the New Testament he was wounded for our transgressions he was bruised for our iniquities the chastisement for our peace fell on him and by his wounds we are healed wow that sounds like the Christian doctrine of justification because that's exactly what it is 53 known as the forbidden chapter that's right in fact the typical Jewish person might not even be familiar with isaiah 53 but ben shapiro is not the typical jewish person he's a student and he i'm sure knows that chapter I know he's read enough Christian material to understand the connection that Christians make between Isaiah 53 and Christ it's obvious on the face of the text so he's read the rabbinical literature that sort of explains that messianic connection away but I watched him there as he responded to John or listen to John and he's nodding and he I think he's going to go back and study Isaiah 53 again because John's had a lot more than he expected in just that short time again that's amazing that John McArthur can do that but he's better at it than anybody I know yeah well indeed he did he did tend to camp right there he was bruised for our iniquities he was chastised for our peace whoa what happened Zachariah says the day will come when they look on him whom they've pierced and mourn for him as an only Son Wow that's what they will say but that's what the Jewish people will say when they look on the one they pierced in mourn for him as an only Son they'll say we thought he was stricken by God we thought we were doing the work of God in taking his life because it was a blasphemer now we see he was wounded for our transgressions he was bruised for our iniquities and then says a Cariah fountain of blessing is open to Israel and a fountain of salvation and then you have that followed by the kingdom and all the fulfillment of the Old Covenant and all of it comes when Israel looks at the Messiah and sees him for who he is the interesting thing about Isaiah's prophecy of that is he doesn't say it's going to have and it's he doesn't use future verbs he uses past verbs because he's looking past Christ too when the Jews look back on the past now we see it Paul reasoned from the Scriptures why the Messiah must suffer yeah that's what he was doing absolutely and and that's certainly one of the texts Paul would have used to show that the Messiah must suffer John MacArthur course wrote a book on Isaiah 53 the Gospel according to God and so that's that that's truth that runs in his veins and he was I'm sure prepared he would have been prepared at the drop of a hat right no no question about that but it even without Ben Shapiro being Jewish I still believe just based on my experiencing witnessing and Paul reasoning from the Scriptures jesus explaining himself to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus about himself in every book of the Old Testament that instead of running away from the Old Testament we should be elevating it and talking about it more because it just keeps relentlessly pointing to Jesus and I think rather than it being like something we need to be embarrassed about it's actually a tool in the Arsenal for evangelism we will continue responding to dr. John MacArthur the real gold of his interview with Ben Shapiro next on wrench [Music] first and second Kings relate the history of Israel from Solomon through the division of Israel into two kingdoms to the destruction of both kingdoms though Israel and Judah and their kings were often unfaithful God continually calls his people to repentance through his prophets but enough about me encouraging you to support the Masters Academy international take it from Phil Johnson I love the Masters Academy International I've been to several of their schools in various parts of the world and I love the way they train national workers efficiently inexpensively send them back out to proclaim the Gospel it's in my view the the smartest way to do missions work small investment massive impact wretched dot org slash pastor as opposed to unhitching the Old Testament using the Old Testament to witness to Jewish people welcome back to wretched phil johnson grace to you executive director john macarthur appearing with ben shapiro whom I believe ben shapiro that you use like a violinist as a product i'll prodigy yeah yeah writing columns at the age of thirteen he is multi-talented really smart guy i really think that the apostle paul was ben shapiro like yeh probably was very similar kind of person the book of romans yeah and the the what would you say would be the big difference between ben shapiro and the and the apostle paul paul didn't pepper his his epistles with commercials but first are you familiar with the masters academy international this is a white house just like you got to do what you got to do to pay the bills for a show like that i get that but doing the commercial thing in the middle of the interview yeah has got to be the awkward moment for the guests let's go back to that interview john macarthur with ben shapiro who is a practicing orthodox jewish man whip-smart a lot of people praying for that fellow salvation it seems john macarthur had that agenda in mind there is a Christian kind of popular doctrine that I reject with all my heart and that is that the church has replaced Israel and the promises of God's called supersessionism I don't believe in that I think that honestly hate to say this but I honestly think it is a latent form of anti-semitism to say that I you you can't tell me that God made promises in the Old Testament to his people Israel concerning his future Kingdom and salvation and that he would give them a heart a new heart and a new spirit and he would write his laws in their heart and they they would be saved and he would be their king and they would be his people and all those Kingdom prophecies you can't possibly tell me that God didn't mean what he said Ben Shapiro had to be almost scratching his head what's with all the Old Testament talk here yeah not only that John keeps coming back to the idea when he dealt with Isaiah 53 and he was talking about Paul using past tense verbs and all that his point is there is coming a time when all Israel will be saved that's Romans 11 Paul says that and he's telling Ben Shapiro you know this this is this is the way the nation of Israel is headed not not the political nation but ethnic Israel is going to turn to Christ in the end and he's keep stressing that point I think to sort of you know he's basically saying in a subtle way to ben shapiro you may not believe this now but you should and and your your your people are going to in the future so dr. MacArthur with Ben Shapiro I thought being wise in saying and not patronizing things but we don't hate is we don't hate Jewish people we don't we don't hate Israel we look forward to them getting saved a lot including you Ben it's very popular in Christianity today to say the Old Testament is interpreted by the New Testament that's not true because if that's the case then nobody in the Old Testament had any idea what was going on right then you've got it that's not revelry that's obfuscation well that's just a pile of riddles other people say well you have to you have to superimpose Christ a christological from a new tick over every part of the old test that's not true either there's authorial intent why the hermeneutics lesson well what he's saying I think is that look the meaning of the Old Testament is not a mystery it's not a it's not a puzzle that needs to be figured out sometimes ben shapiro will treat the Old Testament that way he's into elements of numerology and you know rabbinical traditions that are based in the idea that the meaning of Scripture is a mystery to us and he's saying look there's clarity here if you study it and read the scriptures we believe in the perspicuity of Scripture he's about to use that word which means that scripture is clear enough to convey the meaning it intends he's not saying he's also saying that you know the New Testament doesn't change the meaning of the Old Testament or or you know put meaning that wasn't there it's it's clear when you read it I think it was BB Warfield that said the Old Testament is like an opulent furnished but dimly lit room and the New Testament turns the light on so there are things we see more clearly in the Old Testament because the New Testament explains it to us but the meaning the basic meaning of the text is not a mystery it's not a puzzle and if anybody's saying wait a second didn't the Old Testament prophets look into these things to try to figure out okay but that doesn't mean they were like well we don't know what's going on or what they were trying to figure out the specifics who is this and when is it going to happen and right so they they saw the Messianic meaning it's there it's clear but until until it happened it wasn't clear who it's talking about how it was go or when it was going to happen and that's what Peter's saying and that's 1st Peter 1 do you know what DVD resource available at wretched org / Herman dives into that hermeneutical I understand yes Herman who that is why he is Phil Johnson when Jesus came he said the rabbi's have said this the rabbi's that you've heard it said you've heard it said you've heard it said but I say to you but I say to you but so he was busy correcting what had developed as very complicated matcha nations that turned the Sabbath into a terrible burden and he was assaulting that that to the degree where he said you've substituted the traditions of men for the commandments of God here's a guy in a ditch you don't go over and pick the guy up out of the ditch because you're trying to conform to these matcha nations that have developed around it so I just think that we when Jesus confronted the crowds and particularly the Jewish leaders he would say have you not read have you not read he said it over and over and over which is to say that the Word of God can be understood the Old Testament is revelation knowing that been lean so heavily on the teachings of the rabbis yeah that had to be in pain this is a direct shot and and he brings a great deal of clarity here to to what he's saying that you know his last words there were the Old Testament is revelation he means look it's revelation it's not it's not something hidden it's something revealed and you need to read it and study it and and and see it in the in the clear meaning of what it is and the other thing the other point of clarity there that I think is vitally important even a lot of Christians don't understand this that in the Sermon on the Mount when Jesus said you've heard it said but I say unto you he wasn't changing what scripture demands when he said look you've heard it said you shall not murder but I say unto you you shouldn't even hate it to hate somebody or to be angry with him is tantamount to murder it's the same kind of guilt he wasn't adding a layer of complexity to the law he was unpacking what is already the intention of the law and he's not changing the moral law he's expounding it so that everything he said says in the Sermon on the Mount was already taught in the Old Testament and I think even Ben Shapiro is gonna recognize and acknowledge that later here in the interview rabbi shmuel e-boat iook yes he is he's very similar to ben stein in that when you talk to him he'll quote Maimonides faster than moses right it's a heavy rely some Jewish people to not read the Bible for themselves but to read what the good teachers have said about the Bible John MacArthur is trying to reverse that and I think that we could take a page from this book when you're witnessing to somebody especially of the Jewish persuasion don't run away from the Old Testament preach it will continue with John MacArthur phil johnson ben shapiro next on wretched chances are pretty good this destination is not on your bucket list but it is at the top of the list for Bible League International they visit remote parts of the globe where very few of us go and they bring the Bible to believers for just $5 per Bible would you please consider delivering Bibles to believers everywhere that you and I don't plan on going at wretched org slash Bible the Department of Health and Human Services reports that the average person spends six hours per day on the internet for human flourishing they recommend at least six hours and 30 minutes per day please submit to your government and do what you're told so as long as you're there with 30 minutes to kill visit wretched org and watch a new half-hour episode of wretched or they will find you they are tracking us you know sure he's a good preacher sure he's a fine theologian but what sort of actor is phil johnson executive director of grace to you were responding to john macarthur talking to Ben Shapiro I quite honestly one of the highlights of 2018 in my book because watching a brilliant Jewish man Ben Shapiro with a brilliant Christian theologian needless to say there's much to glean from it but I think we should camp here for just a moment witnessing to Jewish people witnessing to Gentiles not unhitching the Old Testament but utilizing it so Phil I'm the Jewish guy and we're sitting on it's kind of the new airplane design we're in first class so apparently you're a prosperity Christian you're we're in first class you're sitting next to me I've revealed to you that I'm Jewish how how would you talk to me by utilizing the Old Testament goal well it depends on subsequent conversation I would I would ask you what flavor of Jewish are you you know are you reformed you you Orthodox Jew what's your view of the scripture I'm an I'm an Orthodox Jew so do you believe the the Old Testament is the Word of God I I believe that words of God are definitely in the Old Testament and I love the Old Testament because it you know I see Christ in it what do you see as the Messiah well we've got kind of an issue we we've rejected him as the Messiah so that's an if that's what you're getting at now I get that I just have never been able to understand how a Jewish person can read say Isaiah 53 and not see Jesus in that description of the Messiah I'm just not familiar with that yeah let's take out the Bible and look at it I would do that now I you said just before the baby breaking character yeah I am I'm a lousy actor I told you that but you said just before the break that you know even when you're witnessing to Gentiles don't shy away from the Old Testament Isaiah 53 to me it was this was part of my own conversion story I could say the same thing that John McArthur said that I'm a Christian in a large part because of the Old Testament the very first sermon I ever heard in the week that I was saved I was under conviction for sin looking for the answer a friend out of the blue invited me to an evangelistic meeting and the preacher said he was gonna preach on the crucifixion of Christ and at the beginning of his sermon he said open your Bibles to Isaiah 53 I thought he was on the wrong side of the book I said Isaiah 53 and he starts to read it and I realize this is about the crucifixion 700 years before it happened exactly and I didn't know that I know the timetable but I knew enough to know that look that's the Old Testament that was written before Christ and and just the reality that the understanding that that the Old Testament could describe the atoning work of Christ in such graphic detail like that that erased in in one night any doubt I ever had about whether the Bible was the Word of God or not because it's fulfilled so perfectly in Christ so witnessing to somebody we could use things like Isaiah 53 I would also suggest laws the sacrificial system there's also Psalm 22 which is also about the crucifixion right yeah it's Psalm 2 even as very messianic right but also typology is is something that I think can be very powerful that there are many things in the Old Testament that the New Testament says that was actually about Jesus yeah the Ark the door the water all of those things there they were actually pointing to Jesus because I think that's one of the most powerful arguments for the veracity of the New Testament is Jesus in the old agree I agree and I wouldn't like you said don't shy away from using the Old Testament with Gentiles I would also say don't shy away from using the New Testament with Jewish people the book of Hebrews is a powerful apologetic for anyone who's Jewish because the writer there clearly is Jewish and he shows a deep understanding of rituals and symbols and all of that and explains what these mean in in terms of Christ and his ministry and why some of the symbols of the Old Testament been fulfilled and therefore passed away and it's an easy way I think to destroy the sort of simplistic approach that a lot of Jewish people have been taught you know that well Christians misinterpret the Old Testament so don't take you read the book of Hebrews right and clearly somebody knew something yeah about the Old Testament by the way last question do you know who wrote the book of Hebrews I do not I do Oh Bob it just settles it you know rather than whoever the author of Hebrews or maybe it's the abaya so if you have a King James Bible it says in the introduction this is the Epistle of Paul to the Hebrews oh is that right yeah but it can't it doesn't seem very paul line because paul says that he always signs his letters with his own hand and that's an anonymous letter just as i've heard i don't know the amanuensis was but that was maybe his kind of his stump sermon to Jewish people recorded could be as as a book let's just settle on Bob we'll be back with a surprise with Phil Johnson next on wretched hearing the heartbeat made me cry and it was certain that I was going to keep my baby forever and I cannot imagine my life without my happy lovely joyful smart baby and I'm so grateful another ultrasound another saved baby for just $28 you could save the life of a child by providing a free ultrasound through preborn dot org how many babies could you save preborn dot org slash wretched not wanting to pester you or anything but would you please consider becoming a gospel partner prior to the close of the year we're thrilled to pieces anytime anybody joins us as a gospel partner but year and giving it's so crucial to the life and health of every ministry including this one and that is why I'd like to encourage you you're taking care of your church giving first but if you have extra funds when you please consider becoming perhaps an ongoing monthly supporter so we can bring the good news of the gospel to as many people as possible you can do that at wretched dot org slash donate wretched org slash donate yes these kids are having a good time but this is about a lot more than just dancing and singing this is about the gospel you're seeing a tomorrow club in action kids coming to hear the gospel beloved on by the team leaders they're getting saved and they're bringing the gospel home to mom and dad this is about a lot more than just fun would you please support your own tomorrow club at tomorrow clubs org slash wretched welcome back to a wretched surprise our very special guest Phil Johnson executive director of grace to you is going to see a Bible verse for the first time not really for the first time I'm I suspect you've read the whole Bible I've read the whole Bible okay so this won't be a total surprise you just don't know what we're going to put up for you I hope it's what I'm familiar to preach on for Phil Phil does that stop most preachers no it does not sadly alright here it is Romans five you know this one for one will scarcely die for a righteous person though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us yeah and I love this passage this is Romans five where Paul is at the heart of his discussion of justification by faith and he's just spent like three chapters condemning the whole world as hopelessly sinful in bondage to sin he starts in Romans one you know for the the gospel is the power of God unto salvation I'm not ashamed of it and you think Oh gospel good this is going to be good and his very next words are for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness and then he spends chapters condemning everybody of sin until he gets to justification and this is sort of the pinnacle of it that despite our sin despite our enmity against God everything he's been talking about God shows his love for us by sending Christ to die you know I you tell me if this is a good thing to share with somebody to point them to the love of God you know the reality is you probably wouldn't die for me I probably wouldn't die for you Jesus died to save sinners like us I think that just helps bring this verse in the focus it's even more than that it isn't it because I would die for you I like you you know if I could push you out of the way of a car and get hit by the car myself I probably do it maybe definitively Jesus did Phil Johnson grace tf1 place.com until tomorrow he wanted to talk more go serve your king thank you for spending time with Gretchen and thank you for your tax-deductible financial support that allows us to preach the amazing gospel wretched amazing brace

Channel: Wretched

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Rating: 4.8090544 out of 5

Keywords: Todd Friel, Wretched TV, Wretched Radio, Evangelism, Gospel

Id: TtAjPpA0Kdk

Length: 28min 30sec (1710 seconds)

Published: Wed Feb 06 2019