The Secret History of MK Ultra w/Tom O'Neill | Joe Rogan

the Joe Rogan experience so you brought up the MK ULTRA yes and K Ultra was a government program run by the Central Intelligence Agency originally started as something called Bluebird in 1948-49 morphed into artichoke and then in 1952 became MKULTRA it was a mind-control program a brainwashing program the CIA was trying to learn how to control people's behavior without their knowledge now this is all came out and Senate and congressional hearings in the 70s it was exposed but nobody knew about it until 1974 when Seymour Hersh the New York Times reporter reported on the front page of the paper so their main objective was to commit or to create what they called hypno program assassins people who would kill on command popularly known as Manchurian candidates after a book that was written 1962 and later became a movie and then a movie again the people would be through drugs and hypnotism the objective was to get people to go and commit an act of murder against their moral code and have no memory of their programming and be amnesiac even of the act after the fact often that was just one that was a main goal but they were also trying to create couriers people you know military people that they could implant messages send them you know across dangerous areas weather or at that time it was the Vietnam War and deliver messages and then have them wiped from their memory in case they were captured they had all kinds of objectives so Roger Smith was supervising Manson when he became exactly where he was able to do exactly what the MKULTRA program have been trying to create and do for at that point about 15 17 years when it was all exposed in the 70s and there were these hearings first the Rockefeller Commission hearings and the church hearings and then finally senators Ted Kennedy and Daniel Nu I held hearings the CIA admitted that they had done this but they no one would say exactly what they did all the records have been destroyed when the two people who ran it Richard Helms who had become the director of the CIA in the 60s and dr. Sidney Gottlieb who was kind of the mad scientist who had supervised Dahl that all that they had safe houses in San Francisco New York Los Angeles where they would experiment on people that were lured and into these apartments and houses that were either look like brothels or hippie communes or whatever and the people who are working at the Haight Ashbury free medical clinic that was run by another Smith which makes it a little confusing but doctor David Smith who founded it he had given an office to a scientist named jolly Wes Lewis Jay West who was when when the hearings occurred in the 70s identified as a top MKULTRA researcher he was an academic come out of the military had been at the oklahoma university university of oklahoma sorry and then UCLA running the psychiatric divisions he denied ever being involved in MKULTRA and this was one of the moments i think it was 2001 when you know things really kind of shook the course of my reporting was I learned that West had been at the same place that Manson was in the Haight in the summer that Manson became exactly what the CIA was trying to create and I knew actually I had interviewed West about seven years before for our story I did about celebrity stalkers the people who were obsessed with stars and then only to kill them or try to kill them and he was an expert in violence hypnotism brainwashing and he was a chair of the psychiatry department at UCLA at that point he was dead when his name came up in the Manson's story and there wasn't a lot of I mean I guess there was a lot of Google then or a little bit but when I did a little research I found out that there have been these allegations that he'd been involved in MKULTRA he always denied it he was never processed had never even investigated he went to his grave threatening to sue anybody that said he would have anything to do with this kind of a program again through another long story but I got access to his files which had been left at UCLA and never they had never been processed when I called and when I made the request it took him two or three months to process the papers I went through them through the whole summer looking for a needle in a haystack and it was intuition gut I just thought there might be something there and sure enough I eventually found it it was correspondence between jolly Wes and Sidney Gottlieb the doctor that ran MKULTRA beginning in 1953 about Kentucky inductive experiments on people without their knowledge to get them to have amnesia --ks amnesia of the acts after they were programmed and everything that he had been accused of and denied he did not only did he do it he created the blueprint for the whole program with Godley the fact that all these kind of interesting research programs merged at the hate at the clinic and then Manson came out of it with the power to do exactly what the MKULTRA had been trying to create for up to that point I thought was worth investigating further and that's why I kept going and going and going they did a lot of crazy back then are you aware of operation made like midnight climax that those were the safe houses in san francisco that was the brothel version yeah yeah where they they lured these John's into these brothels and then dosed them up with LSD and studied them yeah George hunter white was the head CIA guy he would sit behind a two-way or one-way mirror and watch them that the jobs would be dosed with LSD they tried aerosols or just drinks different things and then they would study their behaviors aerosols yeah aerosol sprays really yeah but that would get the prostitutes to them no no the prostitutes to get them in there and then they'd go to the bathroom or something yeah again the problem is the records are so scant because Helm's order Gottlieb to destroy all the record in 1973 when the two men left the agency and the only reason anybody ever discovered that it existed was a whistleblower somebody who used to work for the State Department who remembered that there were records in a warehouse and they were just financial records from the beginning of the program in 52 until the end and the possible end in 73 and it was just financial records of where research took place how much was spent what kind of equipment was bought but nothing about the content the guy that found that ended up testifying to Congress and working with Seymour Hersh to expose it was named John marks he wrote the first book about MKULTRA that came out in the mid to late 70s called the search for the mansion Orion candidate and after he wrote his book he never you know he spoke did a little bit of a tour and then retreated into obscurity and never would do an interview again until I approached him in the early 2000s and when I told him what I had what I had found in West files these documents he agreed to meet with me at his townhouse in Washington DC and he told me he said the reason I stopped talking or writing about this was people were camping out on my front lawn you know telling me that they'd been victims of MKULTRA he goes I couldn't go anywhere my whole life became crazy because everybody thought that they were subject to this because nobody knew they did these drug tests on prisoners hospital patients John's hippies people that had no idea that this was going on for 25 years so Marx became the authority so he had never given an interview till he met with me and when he looked at my documents at that point I think I had about 10 or 12 or 15 pages that grew eventually because I kept going back to the files and getting more he said it was the most unredacted uncensored account of what the real objectives were what was really being done he had never he said if I had had that my whole book would have been different so that's one of the problems about saying well how much did they do or how far did they go there's barely any record and that's another reason it took me years because I was trying to find out whether or not Wes had actually interacted with Manson and were the girls I mean I knew he was in the same facility I know that everybody that worked there because I interviewed everybody that was alive most of them were still alive back in the night late 90s and early 2000s when I did this they all said oh yeah Charlie was you know we knew it was Charlie and the girls they come in every day or every few days to see Roger and and Wes was there recruiting subjects now West while he was there that summer had opened something called what he called the haight-ashbury project and in his correspondence and papers that I found he called it a laboratory disguised as a hippie crash pad and and just like the operation midnight safe house they call them safe houses which were disguised as birth uh you know poured ellos and that type of thing or brothels these this was an apartment that was decked out her as he called a tricked out to look like a communal hippie place he had six graduate students and I have his letters to them before they came to work in this he goes grow your hair long wear jeans just like hippies and lure people in there so they ran that for the summer of 67 and Wes was getting people from that Haight Ashbury free medical clinic on Clayton Street and sending them around the corner to Frederick Street to participate in that Lord and I got the diaries of some of the graduate students who were there and they all and these Diaries said we have no idea what we're really supposed to be doing here we feel like this whole thing is a cover for something else what does Jolley want why is he making us bring these people in so doing that to graduate students telling them to bring people in and drug them up imagine telling them well some of them like I'm sure because they were also you know encouraged to use LSD I'm sure I mean imagine being a graduate student and this is your project on people I mean that sets up even if you leave that program and go on to do legitimate work the ethical foundations your career are set up in such a strange way you're manipulating people against their knowledge well they didn't know who they were doing it for that's why they were always questioning it so you know I don't know how I found one or two of them after and they were very careful talking to me I'm sure that ya felt like they were gonna go to jail well that's the thing yeah if any of these experiments or whatever was going on was older than a death there's no statute of limitations on murder right right I mean that's one of the biggest disappointments of my book is that people like West aren't alive you know to answer for that to answer to this and it was really frustrating for me because again his name was on the front page of the New York Times in 1977 when they had the major hearings about MKULTRA and it identified him as a head of the psychiatry department at UCLA very prominent doctoral researcher and he said he had nothing to do with that he never used LSD on humans and he wouldn't he said they had asked him and he said no I have all these letters between him and the guy who was running the program describing how they're gonna do it hide it from his colleagues when he started it he started at Lackland Air Force Base he was running the security department at the hospital there in 1952 when he was there running that hospital that's when he started his experiments on prisoners human subjects and one letter to Godley he says eventually we have to take these experiments out into the field oh Jesus exactly what does that mean well if you haven't gotten it through a chapter 11 yet you haven't gotten to the Jimmy shaver okay no I haven't a year after oh maybe Jamie did a year after I was contracted with the CIA to do these experiments July 4th 1954 a three year old girl went missing from the parking lot of a bar at about 11:00 or 12:00 at night now her parents was a heat wave they couldn't sleep they went to the bar they brought their two kids they let them play in the parking lot it men the little girl disappeared they organized a search party about three or four hours later they went to a gravel pit and to arrow to Airmen had caught our two itinerant guys had called the police the local sheriff and said there's a guy here that wandered out of the brush with scratches and blood no shirt and he doesn't know how he got here or who he is the police came his name was Jimmy shaver he was an airman they did a search and they found the little girl's body not too far away and she had been raped and murdered by this guy who had no memory of doing it the guy had no history of violence he had a couple kids and he was a flight instructor at the school he'd been in the military for a number of years I think it was in his early 30s well guess who became his psychiatrist in preparation for the trial jolly West who inserted himself into the case and then extracted his memory from him using sodium pentathol where he admitted to the the murder now in the context of what we found out West was doing and what his objectives were at that same time it raises huge questions about this was an experiment gone wrong you know that he was part of one of these experiments at Lackland Air Force Base where he was signed up during the trial it came out that he had had treatment for severe migraines experimental treatment at Lackland that's another you know a smaller sub chapter in the book but does it describe what kind of experimental treatment he received no no because nobody I mean I have all the testimony there was actually read a trial a retrial and sentencing and every time it came up it was really frustrating because he never testified so they it was either his wife or his mother who would talk about it was mostly his mother saying well all I knew was they wanted him to be involved in this two-year study to try to relieve his migraines he would have such horrible he would put his head in a bucket of ice water the people who described encountering him that night when he was arrested and immediately taken out of the sheriff's custody by the military police and brought to Lachlan and then back to the sheriff's he was in a trance the doctors tested him for alcohol because they thought well maybe he's drunk you know I just a little bit of alcohol in his system but he wasn't drunk and after the fact they found out that he had I mean I don't want to get into this because it's really getting into the weeds but he had hallucinate 'add that this little girl was a cousin who sexually abused him as a child and he was trying to kill her her name was Beth rainbow all this stuff came out of the trial Jolley West in 1955 sent a report to Sidney Gottlieb which nobody had seen and it was another document I found in his files and now saying that he had learned how to or develop the technology to remove true memories and replace them with false memories and a human subject without their knowledge which was one of the main goals the biggest goals of the MKULTRA program and again when the CIA when they had the hearings in the 70s the CIA said nothing was successful everything we try was a failure it was a waste of money we shouldn't have done it and not not just me but most experts think that that was a cover that they didn't want to admit they that they had developed these technologies that were effective they also claimed that they had released everything they had I found the same report where West said that he had learned how to replace true memories with false ones without a person's awareness but they had removed that from the report and then released it to Congress so that's a crime right there you know so there's a lot of that stuff in the book so the speculation is that this guy through these experimental treatments that they had dosed him up with LSD and experimented using these MKULTRA techniques and did to him and induce some sort of well this is speculation and I'll go there okay for this the guy had no history of violence never been arrested with stellar upstanding citizen his only problem was he had these horrible headaches all of a sudden he shows up by a small girl's body who been brutally murdered with no memory of doing it a year earlier dr. West who became a psychiatrist within a week or two possibly had experiences with him before but there was no record oh when I tried to get the record from the medical center at Lackland his file that his name was shaver I think it was sa 2s I was missing so where shaver would have been and the medical records it was gone so I couldn't find out whether he had actually participated in any kind of experimental program now so is the speculation again it's a speculation that he did commit the crime that he was somehow or another induced into committing this crime yeah and again this is speculation it's completely circumstantial the objective was to get people who would go out and do things not even necessarily kill that's that was the ultimate goal but to do things against their will against their moral code right but how would they know that this child would be there how would they know no no she wasn't targeted so wait just that they'd put it into his head to get something anyone yeah something clicked and went wrong so it wasn't a precise thing now doesn't know no nobody really knew what Ellis this was the very early days of experimenting with LSD in the in the early 1950s West was one of the premier researchers in LSD but he was still new to it he had actually come out of he had first gained national attention for being one of four or five doctors who treated Korea and prisoners of war who were returned to the United States after they had made confessions of spraying the Korean countryside with illegal biological weapons the United States said that we don't use that that's against the Geneva codes and these guys were brainwashed by the the North Korean Chinese Soviets so when they were brought back after the war West and four other psychiatrists were assigned to deprogram them what a lot of researchers believe is that they actually brainwashed them into thinking they've been brainwashed by the Koreans where they actually were telling the truth because there's a lot of evidence that's come out as recently as five six years ago that we did use these weapons in Korea double-cross [Laughter] [Applause]

Channel: JRE Clips

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Id: kA6eBKvph_Y

Length: 20min 42sec (1242 seconds)

Published: Thu Apr 16 2020