Former CIA Agent Gives Background Info on MK Ultra, Midnight Climax, and Charles Manson

the jurgen experience did you get a chance to look at that chaos book that i that i told you about yeah yeah yeah tom o'neal who is a friend of my good friend greg fitzsimmons wrote an insane book that took him 20 years about manson and the cia and lsd and what did you think about all that uh well you've touched on some i mean it's it's or tom touched on some really interesting things that uh what i liked about his book and i went through it i read it is that he's he's he he's actually i think very honest about the shortcomings right of what he ended up doing right and and and the research that he went through and where he couldn't draw connections i so i give him a lot of credit i think it's it's well worth the read um and you know it's it's a it's a hell of a just a personal story that it took him this [ __ ] long right to make his way through in a variety of reasons but um yeah it luckily it's been a tremendous success yeah yeah yeah i mean it's really he sold he sold out almost immediately and uh the paperbacks are sold out too i mean he's i think well look maybe reprinting it huge draw right but it's also it's a fantastic encounter account of all the things that happened with the manson family and all those people that were alive back then about how this guy kept getting out of jail and they kept arresting him and they kept saying this is above my pay grade and they would let him out yeah and that's that's for me that's the strangest part about the whole story right i mean i you know this idea that you know was manson uh you know a lab rat for the cia and you know how how how far down that rabbit hole do you want to go well o'neill is pretty clear about that right it's a that's a not a particularly solid connection it's a tenuous connection i think he called it um between one of what used to be a a uh contractor a researcher for uh that old chestnut mk ultra john west yeah yeah jolly west yeah what did you think about all that like i'm sure you know about operation midnight climax and all the stuff that's absolutely true yeah i don't know i it'd be interesting to know how many people are or where i mean i know some people that you know that that's what they do midnight climax operation midnight climax was a cia-funded program where they dosed up john's they created brothels and uh dosed up john's with lsd against their knowledge yeah and uh without their knowledge and let them fornicate and have a good old time with these uh ladies of the evening man oh my god i've watched them and filmed them and studied them i know and would you say it that way i'm i'm in if you want money to produce that movie but it's um i it is actually yeah it's true look yeah it fell under the uh sort of umbrella of this mk altar which is public knowledge i'm not you know obviously we're not talking about that term well let's also give them the benefit of the doubt when lsd was synthesized by albert hoffman they really needed to figure out what the [ __ ] this was and they need to figure out like could this be used against americans could this be used against the president what is this is this a truth serum like what what are the benefits what's the pros and cons and what are the dangers of this stuff well that's a national security angle it's very important that they did study it right and so from context and again we talked about that towards the beginning is is you know which something we don't normally do right so you we're we're judging people from history now right under the and so we're not using context of what was the average what were the conditions we're talking about the 1950s the 1960s well earlier yeah late 40s right i mean so so whatever you got you got the the end of the world war ii you got the cold war uh it's the late 40s uh you've got the soviet union um that is heavily invested in um in a variety of experiments mind control uh brainwashing was the sort of the term of of the culture right and and brainwashing was a big issue uh it was not a big issue but it was it captured people's imagination back then so the late 40s early 50s it was korean war um yeah we had an existential threat right we had nukes pointed each other we had you know drills in schools kids hiding under desks i mean what the [ __ ] so with the fear that the chinese or the soviets were going to develop uh mind control abilities was uh pervasive and it's sound i know you know you talk about it now and everybody rolls her eyes and goes oh my god but you're absolutely right that you have to understand the context with which then alan dulles who was the at the time the director of the cia by the way the guy who kennedy fired and wound up being a part of the warren commission after kennedy was murdered which was very strange yeah okay oh i like that i like where that could go so so anyway uh we got uh we got alan dulles who in 53 early in 53 says all right we have to understand what that what the the soviets are doing particularly the soviets uh but we also had you know again i'm sure some folks listening know all this but a lot of folks probably don't we had pows returning american people returning from korea that was a big issue right because some of them came back again quote unquote brainwashed you know and and some of them didn't want to return because you know again brainwashing you know mind control that you know perhaps the chinese had developed these techniques so initially the idea was defensive how do we protect ourselves against this new threat within this cold war against these enemies who appear to be devoting great deal of resources against this well so initially it started out as a defensive effort mk ultra was the umbrella name for a whole bunch of over 140 projects sub projects underneath nk ultra and it was all based around chemical substances use of chemicals use of drugs behavioral uh issues with with human uh beings um creating false memories uh deleting uh memory uh influencing the behavior again of of individuals there were a variety of projects that fell under this mk ultra and it was again starting out as a defensive issue but then quickly became uh sort of an offense how do we how do we become the leader in all of this which is typical right it's typical on how things develop it's like cyber warfare you know initially it's defensive and now you think okay now we gotta figure out how to make it work on our behalf and sometimes it's important like when they shut down the iran nuclear program yeah with a virus essentially a computer virus no absolutely and where this went off the rails in in in a handful of ways in many ways um was testing on unwitting subjects things such as lsd and a variety of other substances yeah whoops and those subjects unwitting subjects range to everything from uh in federal prisons to uh state uh mental hospitals uh that's where manson comes in and that's where manson comes in and um and a variety of other people um you know who it's just it's it's a i would recommend people you know dig in don't you know don't settle on um just one account and one of the things that people should also do if they want to read about this is read the any testimony that came out of the cia and there was some testimony there were there was documents written by the inspector general back in 50 and this this time period was about 53 through at least officially acknowledged 64 1964. and then the program was wrapped up supposedly they were still um federal programs military programs others that were still looking into issues related to the use of chemical substances for everything again from interrogation to um uh behavioral uh adjustment and and a lot of these things were funded uh through cutouts so you'd set up again this is you know early 50s mid 50s early 60s set up financing vehicles you know through say uh you know what appear to be non-threatening grant programs you know from research institutes so you'd you'd you'd loop in academic institutions or researchers and mk ultra had at least acknowledged anyway over 80 uh academic institutions and and others that were either wittingly or unwittingly working on their behalf in various research programs so yeah this this uh midnight climax program basically they'd they'd kid out a safe house as a brothel um and they would uh have the hookers uh slip lsd or whatever substance to the to the johns um and then behind a mirror you'd have a supposed like a researcher right i mean this is where it got weird sitting there you know having a drink and watching these you know the hooker and the john have sex and then they'd be analyzing the impact of the lsd on them in terms of their ability to talk and and would they was the hooker in on it yeah the hooker was in on it and we see an employee of the cia uh you know you know and it was it wasn't just the agency you know like the army was involved in these things as well but um they would get you know cash payments and uh oftentimes the uh get out of jail get out of jail free card um you know what ladies if you're out yeah if you're out there listen to me come on whatever you need come forward i'm here for it but there was in the show there was talk you could wear a boba fett mask okay we'll hide your identity i don't know why i said but i mean just imagine i mean so it's okay so this was clearly you know clearly uh was off the rails right and they had one of the guys that was involved in this uh uh he was with what used to be called the federal bureau of narcotics a guy named uh white george white um was you know involved in like the san francisco cat house and you know according to the stories he'd sit there and you know with a martini in his hand and watch the couple have sex and then he and he would have like prepped the the hooker to say okay after sex now this appears to be the best time to get them talking so ask them about their job and let's see if they'll talk about their job the idea being could we influence and and like uh entrap uh potential assets overseas for operational reasons you know is was there some use you know for operational purposes but basically it was just you know george getting his rocks off watching couples having sex and you know very very strange [ __ ] uh but you're right in that and so again this this went on until 64 mk ultra interestingly enough not to not to spend too much time on it but richard helms was the director at the time uh in the early 70s and he and a guy named gottlieb sidney gottlieb who was the head of technical services at the agency they agreed that the smart thing to do in 73 before richard helms left and godly left the agency was to destroy all the records so they purged all the records of mk alter that they they thought existed this was investigating the church committee back in 75 and then 76 i think it was they found a bunch of financial records you know that had not been purged because they had been kept you know audits uh of uh and again you're talking about like 149 subprojects of mk alters so you can imagine each sub project has its own accounting and you got to turn in your receipts for the lsd that you bought or the hook you're paid off or whatever you know so here's my receipt can i have my 12 or whatever you paid for a hooker back then and so probably not 12 bucks uh but uh they found some financial records um and so that became then the a matter of another investigation up on the hill um and stansfield turner the time the cia director testified at that point and that's why i brought my laptop is because stansfield turner's uh testimony is actually pretty interesting uh as far as mk ultra goes and he talks about um we've attempted to group the activities covered by the 149 subprojects into categories under descriptive headings wouldn't you in broad outline at least this presents the contents of these files uh the headings of the categories of all these various projects that ran under mk alter and this gives you a pretty good quick sense of what they were doing at the time research into the effects of behavioral drugs under alcohol there were 17 subs projects probably not involving human testing this is a testimony from the director of the cia stansfield turner 14 sub projects definitely involving tests on human volunteers volunteers 19 subpro sub projects probably including tests on human volunteers while not known some of these sub projects may have included tests on unwitting subjects as well while not known well not known and then six subprojects yeah definitely involving tests on unwitting subjects uh research on hypnosis uh acquisition of chemicals or drugs aspects of magicians art what magicians are yeah yeah like slipping them a mickey or something you know how do you do that sleight of hand studies of human behavior sleep research behavioral changes during psychotherapy motivational studies studies of defectors assessment and training techniques polygraph research funding mechanisms for mk ultra external research activities research on drugs toxins and biologicals and human tissue activities whose objectives cannot be determined from available documentation anyway it goes on but it gives you a sense of of what the hell was was happening during this period of time but again i this doesn't justify it obviously it doesn't but you're absolutely right that to have a full understanding of this you have to look at the at the context of what yeah where we were at that time and where we were with smack dab in in the height and and elevation of the cold war knowing that our adversaries our existential threats were engaged in this sort of behavior now george white was not really a researcher or anything he would just sit behind a mirror watching some people you know get off so uh clearly and all the unwitting subjects involved i mean but look they were slipping uh lsd to uh agency employees right without telling them really yeah oh yeah yeah and and i mean it's just yeah so it's not that long ago but it's not we have to think about it in terms of the same way we thought about abraham lincoln that in the context of the times this wasn't such a horrendous thing to do they didn't know any better it was really they didn't know what these substances would do to people and there wasn't a lot of ways to find out you know the harvard lsd studies that they did that they believe in in part were responsible for the unabomber there's a lot of other [ __ ] that was responsible for the unit bomber including particularly his childhood but they they did a lot of these studies because they they didn't know i mean there's it's one way to find out i mean how do you get responsible human subjects how do you get people to do well there's not a lot of ways other than just test people right and unfortunately yeah what what this ended up being was you know like using using the most marginalized people out there you know like sex workers or prisoners or whatever right uh and oftentimes you know john's are just just um you know but that whole thing but where where tom o'neill's book is is you know is really interesting in a couple of ways is isn't it if you jump so mk ultra kind of finished up in 64 officially right that's when you know the inspector general came out from the agency and said this you got no you can't you can't do this they had a new inspector general and they looked and said this is clearly not where we are supposed to be but interestingly funding mechanisms you know that were used to again to dole out grants or to provide a cut out between government and research that was being done you know did some of those continue to exist for other uh programs other research and in 67 um you know you have uh the summer of love san francisco and tom o'neill writes about this and it's very very interesting but you had this the haight ashbury uh free medical clinic right which in part uh was running a couple of projects that were supposedly getting funding from the national institute for mental health which had previously been a funding mechanism also for mk-ultra you know a few years in the past and roger smith was a guy who was getting his phd in criminology he was working at the haight ashbury free medical clinic and he was also manson's parole officer and to your point manson was like it was like a a brook trout or a rainbow trout that is in some catch and release stream right he was constantly arrested during the 67-68 period remember his the killings happened in summer of august of 69 uh and you know he kept getting released and he had been in prison right in 67 he had early in that year he'd been released from prison right so he was on probation any violation certainly some of the things he was getting arrested for should have sent him back to prison but he wasn't so that to me is one of the most interesting parts of the book is this this is this revolving door that manson was in and eventually we all know what happened to him um but yeah working at the haight ashbury free medical clinic that's where manson would go along with some of his followers and and you know they were you know part of a study and you know they were i'm sure you know getting their lsd from there but um also this guy jolly west who was involved in mk ultra uh also ended up having an office at the haitasbury free medical clinic so but again to thomas closed down about four months after tom's book came out been open for over 50 years crazy what are the odds yeah i know what are the odds i didn't see that coming uh yeah but i mean you know again it's it's i like to i like the book because he does seem to be uh trying to let the the facts of all his research lead the way rather than trying to prove a point that he comes up with at the beginning of his book well he also exposed the prosecutor bugliosi and all the issues that was going on with him that led to him wanting to follow the narrative that they had laid out that manson was trying to incite a race war and right you know and ignore all the other indicators that there was some deeper connections and yeah was manson a uh was he an informer for the bureau or or for local law enforcement or you know some other outfit i'd you know that's uh hard to tell hard to tell but it's compelling in light of the fact that he kept getting released he seemed to have a get out of jail free card he also seemed to have an unlimited supply of acid that was what's fascinating and he also seemed to employ the same techniques that apparently the cia had employed when they'd done experiments on prisoners including the fact that he would you know force them into weird sexual situations and pretend to take lsd himself but not really participate and then you know influenced them and he seemed to be doing things to them in terms of like trying to alter their behavior and getting them to do things that were outside the norm including murder yeah i mean did he see yeah did he have a sense from his time there uh at the clinic or dealing with uh what's his name roger smith his parole officer who again was also a you know criminology doctor a doctoral candidate i guess and so was you know but but look manson was you know he was not a rocket scientist he was illiterate for the most part right until he ended up in prison and and maybe which is why i was so weird that he was able to manipulate so many people so well right but it was also it's like what he was the perfect guinea pig i mean you're talking about a guy who spent half his life in federal penitentiaries yeah yeah and and and also you're putting it in context of the time um what else did you have going on you had sort of this again this uh awareness of the impact of lsd on the on the counter culture right so you had federal agencies like the bureau and for example worrying about oh my god what's the you know what what are these hippies going to do next you know and you know they were worried obviously about uh the black panthers but it was also more than that it was it was the war movement yeah the just the general counterculture and the impact of drugs on it and so it's a it's a fascinating i think it's a i think it's a very interesting read and i think it's worth the read because again he's spent so much time trying to make his way through yeah it's a crazy story and if you haven't heard the podcast please listen to it with tom o'neill [Applause]

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Length: 22min 3sec (1323 seconds)

Published: Tue Aug 04 2020