The Interrogation Of The Burglar That Left No Trace | Police: Suspect No 1 | Real Responders

i don't have to say [ __ ] i don't have to say anything did you shoot that gun where did you shoot him when a crime has been committed did he hit her in the face there could be a gun up here anywhere detectives must first identify a suspect it's covering his face as he goes past it got this girl here still looking back as she walks away yeah that is bang in the middle of the crime time next they must search for rock solid evidence the offenders were wearing balaclavas gun is crucial isn't it juries are told you must be sure but it's so difficult to hit that test then they must put their case to the test face to face with the suspects in the interview room you often sit in a small room no more than two or three feet between you and the person who has raped murdered burglars stolen there's a little bit of a game i guess chess poker you move one piece they move another one will the evidence stand or fall will the suspect tell the truth or will they manage to hide it they will do anything say anything we are lied to frequently they can muddy the waters in any way they want [Music] this time detectives face two suspected serial burglars after a massive crime wave the fourth burglary occurred around about 4 p.m his bedroom door opened and an unknown male appeared in the doorway was that you tommy across the city there's a huge spike in burglaries and detective inspector chris burgess and his team now have the challenge of finding out who's responsible we treat house burglaries really really serious in norfolk it's a really nasty crime a real violation of someone's personal space someone's privacy i imagine you are quite concerned that somebody's coming while you've been sleeping we want to find out who this is and we want to charge them and obviously get them locked up usually i would expect us to get 30 to 35 burglaries a month we've been pushing close to 50. the ammo of that one is completely identical to one of these ones because that's actually a very short distance away he focus on laptops and tablets and not jewelry so stuff is very small easy to get away with burglars can commit four five six burglaries a night two or three nights a week it's not like a one-off incident if you don't stop a burglar commit burglaries they will keep going until they're stopped the detectives believe one man recently released from prison could be responsible for the surge in burglaries tommy kroll is someone that's been committing crime for 25 years he's well known in the city most seasoned detectives that i've worked with will know kroll very shortly after coming out of prison he's lost his script which means the only way he can feed his heroin habit is by stealing and thieving and breaking into people's houses crowe has multiple previous convictions for burglary and detectives have been on his tail for weeks now he's unexpectedly been placed under arrest by uniformed officers after they were called to a fight at a house my tommy crawford has been nicked in knowledge tommy's obviously of interest with his six burger he's out in the area his background he's a drug user he's sofa surfs around the city and burglary basically around where he lives kroll has no fixed address and is hard to locate so the detectives don't want to miss the chance to confront him face to face we get a lot of no comment interviews i think the reason for that is because there doesn't appear to be a benefit to sort of speak up early you know experience criminal certainly you realize if you hold out until you can see all the police evidence then you can base your accounts around that but while kroll may be suspect number one for a string of burglaries so far they have little evidence to prove it the odds are massively in his favor we don't have the evidence to charge you so it's important we use this opportunity to interview him to get as much from as possible and i fully suspect it's the type of interview that someone of his offending history won't answer any questions can you tell me your full name carlos from carlos crowe are you happy if i call you tommy yeah yeah he's all right okay tommy just before this interview i did a restaurant suspicion of a further eight burglaries okay and i'm going to put these to you four burglaries were all committed on the 23rd of july during the day at cutting view court a large amount of property was stolen totaling over 1600 pounds are you responsible for the burglary of that address i'm going to move on there are three more burglaries i have to ask you about and the the what we call the mo the modus operandi the the way the burglaries were committed were all very similar to those that were committed on the 23rd of july in the catton grove road area do you know anything about it i put it to you simply at this stage would leave you involved in the commission those offensively because they're linked by the same mo they're linked by the same types of search conducted inside the same type of property going missing you were seen in the area of the five burglaries committed on the 20th or sorry four burglaries committed on the 23rd you were wearing the clothes it matches the description the the clothes that were seen by the witnesses and those witnesses give a description which would generally match you as well is there anything at all you want to say about that have we got it wrong from what we're telling him at the moment he will know that we don't have enough to charge him and that'll make him smile tommy is there anything else before we conclude the interview if you just if you're willing to do me the um do me the honor of answering that question do you want you want to say anything to me no okay thank you so much look it's um it's 12 minutes past five and we'll uh we'll conclude the interview [Music] this time the detectives are frustrated they have no choice but to set him free the ball was in his court for this interview we didn't have enough but our aim now is to turn those tables the next time we interview him i want us to be in a position of power he'll keep committing crime he will make a mistake and that's when we'll catch the police hello um burglary suspect tommy kroll released from custody the crime wave continues across the city in the past two three months we've had a series of burglaries occurring across norwich all these little dots indicate burglaries that have happened in that time we've got a little series around here a little sort of cluster of crimes happening around there burglaries and also the large one around mile cross up here which again we sort of attribute to the same offender seasoned burgers are often hard to catch every time we lock them up they they remember how we locked them up what we did to prove what they've done tommy kroll will wear gloves he'll be careful not to cut himself at the scene he'll discard items he won't carry stolen property with him and he'll make a mistake we'll get lucky or we'll do a great bit of detective work whether it be cctv whether it be property whether it be clothing whatever it may be it will come [Music] burglary is a chance to find a clue that could trip up tommy crowl all my doors and fridges and everything is up and everything is a mistake was there anyone in the property when you came no no okay just got in and everything has just been a mess everything is done but upstairs and everywhere yeah so the whole house is okay oh my god bastards detective ryan westrop thinks there are potential links to tommy crow so this particular one where we're going to i think he's got either a girlfriend or a partner that lives in that estate he certainly has links to that location obviously that's very speculative at this stage but he could well be someone to maybe have a look into hi there dc west shot from another place yep you realize it's coming yeah yeah perfect thank you very much okay so there's smash there that's just okay yeah in my office they're just they took all my ipads and everything they've been upstairs as well or is it yeah wrecked up shows they've gone through a bag now i don't know if a person's gone my watch is gone and are you okay god actually yeah you know it's just such a mess and you know there's no need for it it's a nightmare you know someone has been in here that's horrible that's you know we could say something else but i'd rather not not content with the [ __ ] the burglar even helped himself to a snack that's in the fridge right okay had a bite and chucked it in there so i don't uh well we can speak with csi and whether or not they'll be able to gain any forensics from it yeah yeah if it is crawl he will have avoided cctv cameras and won't have left fingerprints or dna but he just might have left a shoe print what the chances are well the forensics element if tom's able to get anything that'll get submitted off that can take a little while to come back as soon as we get any updates i will certainly be in touch with you csi will lift every print they can and compare them to every recent burglary then they can see if this burglar whether it is crawl or not has left a clue [Music] burglary in progress in the property he has a crowbar another 999 call for a daytime burglary comes in it fits crawls method and this time the burglar is still at the scene he's still in the property now he was just as the police arrive a man is escaping at the front of the property the burglar is caught trying to get away with a bag of stolen items but it's not tommy crawl it is another known offender joe creed police had gone there arrested that person they're now being taken to custody but the main thing for now is going to secure all the evidence that we can on the scene make sure we're not losing any evidence for detective chris edwards it's vital that he gathers as much information as he can at the scene before he confronts the suspect in the interview room how did you first learn about the burglary you addressed today who called you first my son my oldest son called me right okay and what was it what did he say to you yeah he said i think you might want to come home now we've been burgled right just have a look around where you can see right there's a t-shirt gone out of that yeah and a card there's a card going out of that one there's a bottle of whiskey and i've got the gin missing okay we'll go through here now then when they go upstairs there is evidence that this burglar could potentially have been dangerous is this yours do you recognize this no what would you call that that looks like a chrome rod that's a knife that's what i would say it looks like [Music] the knife and the crowbar raise the stakes if a burglar is carrying something that could be used as a weapon they can face much longer sentences but proving the more serious charge of aggravated burglary requires an extra layer of proof you see finger finger finger finger palm [Music] joe creed may know that the knife in the crowbar could put him at risk of a longer prison sentence he doesn't want to be convicted of the more serious offensive aggravated burglary because that's obviously a more serious punishment if he's worn gloves then he'll think well my fingerprints aren't on those items he will be thinking i'm going to admit to the things i have to admit to but the other things that will make it more serious i'm not going to admit to and perhaps come up with a story with joe creed in custody the detectives are on the clock they have 24 hours from his arrest to make a charge or release him but creed is refusing to come out of his cell to be questioned instead he has prepared a statement dems in use by officer 1392-514 edwards and saw for the purpose of conducting an interview of yourself joe as stated earlier we do still need to interview you the offences as to why you're here today okay so i'm just going to conduct the interview as per normal all right i accept i entered the address i did not break into the address someone else did i do not wish to name that person i did not take a crowbar and a knife into the address what was not answered was whether or not you used the crowbar for the purpose of forcing open the patio door to gain entry to the address wait joe joe just away funny [Music] [Music] joe creed's version of events could be enough to get him off the charge of aggravated burglary [Music] at the moment then we've got him putting himself in the dress saying that he is responsible for burgling it effectively ended the trespasser stole et cetera et cetera um but deny's entering says it's someone else the only issue we have got is the fact that obviously we can't put the knife in his hand without any forensics yet so yeah he's tried to distance himself from that weapon so he doesn't get the higher offense it's definitely muddied the wars his account it's enough to throw that element of doubt and seed in sort of into cps that perhaps he didn't have the knife perhaps he did the team submits all the evidence to the crown prosecution service and finally at 3 30 in the morning they get an answer i hate to disappoint you here but it didn't go with the aggravated in the world what he has no relevant frequency weapons or everybody burglary so he's likely to rely on his own record in that regard even if he hadn't concocted a story it would be still difficult to prove that he had that knife in his possession at any point because it wasn't found on him it wasn't found near him it was found in the house and there's too many unknowns with it for cbs to say that they'd be happy to take that to court as he has admitted being involved in the burglary creed will be charged and remanded in custody but it's clear that he wasn't the cause of the huge surge in burglaries as the crime wave shows no sign of stopping every day i come in and i see a couple more burglaries i see the figures that are three times higher than they've been for a number of months and we're under a lot of pressure from the public because there's an expectation that we stop these people committing these offences you do feel the pressure and you do feel the frustration personally but there is a new lead on the burglary where ipads jewelry money and a bounty ice cream bar were stolen there's a chance it could lead to tommy kroll i've got a really partial footprint in the front bedroom the one the shiny floor there's not a lot of it it's just little um pentagons like pink things and some kinds of things okay yeah i've researched it for the last three months um nobody's been arrested with that mark and there's no other ways so the footprints could be the first piece of the [Music] jigsaw then another piece falls into place hours of searching through cctv have revealed a promising set of images all right that's the address there got this girl here walking past the bag all right she goes into the front of it now the occupants are out and the occupants weren't expecting anyone now the theory is potentially she could be knocking at the front door while a and others around the back yeah just checking she went straight to that address um what's she doing now she's gonna use her phone like she's texting or something i'd say it's probably phone oh she came back the same way she's looking in this address and i'm still looking back as she walks away yeah so what it is i'm trying to get still of her so i don't recognize her but that is bang in the middle of the crime times it doesn't quite look right does it no i'll circulate see if we can identify potentially something around the area when it's local the fact that it is so narrow two hours and she goes to that specific address is a fantastic bit of luck and that little bit of footage we found today could be a massive massive really important bit of evidence when the cctv image is shown around the force a possible id is made and the woman named appears to be close to a familiar figure she is linked to tommy kroll who is one of our prolific burglars he's got a sparkling personality we're just getting some cctv when they were last seen in probation a couple of days ago see if they're similar crawls in there with hair and she's not wearing the same clothing and it's not brilliant but it's cases very similar bag um it's not a unique bag bunny no but it's it's it's another little bit towards being her isn't it they're definitely a couple she doesn't look like she's got a drug problem herself i think we quite happily say that's her from everything we've got so far we can't say it's definitely not no but then it doesn't give us yeah she hasn't actually done anything wrong other than the fact that that is within the two-hour window in this hospital yeah which makes it incredibly suspicious yeah it's all stacking up just got to find that one bit to link them all to it tommy's quite smart he would use someone like her because ultimately she's not going to flag up to us no yeah it's definitely not unusual that people like kroll do use the vulnerability of the women and the people they have relationships with them to their advantage he can use her to be involved and perhaps take more risks in some of the crimes that he's involved the connection makes tommy crawl suspect number one for at least one of the string of burglaries and finally there are leads to follow [Music] two more serious burglaries have come in overnight but detectives john goldson and luke saw tommy kroll is suspect number a tub one heroes on the kitchen workshop have been completely empty one unwrapped suite has been left in the tub i bet they left the caramel ones behind they've actually left the bounties behind the overnight burglaries could reveal some more shoe prints and if it's tommy kroll they could prove to be his downfall could i ask you just to keep away from those areas where you think somebody might have walked we've had them success recently with a number of burglaries where we've managed to retrieve shoe prints from the scene of the burglary that might be able to identify a suspect after scouring every square inch of the property csi have recovered a footprint that doesn't belong to the family that live there [Music] it's an untidy search downstairs csi found what they think are probably glove marks the point of entry inside yeah but they have got a partial supreme which appears to be foreign to the address now this is the partial lift they've got [Music] that could be this bit here can it it could be it could be a it looks as though it would be around this area here the heel yeah which would it's difficult when you look at these ones yeah i know it's just difficult but the hexagons haven't seen very often do you we've got some footprints which is similar to other burglaries another key with footprint is catching that person wearing those shoes getting those shoes shortly after the burglary to give us the best opportunity possible to forensically confirm they're the same same shoe has committed the mark so we need to find the person wearing that shoe as soon as we can the key to the case is now linking craw to the shoe prince they have a decision to make do they have sufficient grounds to arrest crawl in order to find out if his shoes are a match all right when you are then coxsey we got a moment it was good [Music] right let's talk about tommy cromic i mean i think for me the problem we've got we're over a hundred dwellings more than i'm comfortable with in the last three months because overnight we had about three didn't before overnight we had three so then what are your thoughts mate and where are we at we haven't got a confirmed that that is his missus going to the front door no we haven't but i think i'm happy that it is you're right i think it is her yeah i don't think we could put an evidential statement to say that and actually what does that prove however this let's get let's go a little bit old-fashioned in it reasonable suspicion that's what i think yeah i think in fact we've got now two footprints that's the same from two different crime scenes in the same area the footwear for me is the key so the two options are we we nick him on friday see what footwear he's got then we can rule him in a ruler yeah and we nick here as well well i think that that's my part i think we need to get that boat together yeah and i would suggest if we can get footwear that's similar that's what we think about thresholds isn't it if he's out there with her and we get an opportunity then we have to do it we have to do don't we yeah definitely all right buddy thank you for that tommy kroll will know that his footwear might incriminate him he won't want to be arrested wearing the same shoes he used in a burglary so the detectives must catch him unawares don't anyone be spooked for the fact it's friday the 13th from filming you've chosen number two how many prints do we want six [Music] have a quick chat today crawl is due to attend a compulsory probation meeting in the centre of norwich he's going to invasion at half one probation as usual aren't keen for us to go steaming in because it upsets everyone and stops him attending so once he's in front of probation it's two long buildings that you can't get anywhere from so we can just put him into that area there all the better that's why i'm thinking wait for him to come out first try not to make a big deal if he's got knikes on but if we can get an early steer of what his bottomless shoes like that'd be good if he has got the footwear on with the hexagonals we'll then be further arresting him for the caddo road burglary which happened two days ago where we've got some similar footprint marks if any point we think we've spooked him he sees us and you think it's getting a bit weird we'll just get all of it let's not antagonize the situation we don't need to be overly heavy-handed with him if he's playing ball we play broadcom should i get going i'll meet you there [Music] is spotted by uniform officers but diaz cox is worried that they might spook him if he makes a run for it he might buy time to get rid of his shoes beautiful correct five five series will be stay away from controlled uh [Music] right tommy yeah we've got them can you bring the car here as quick as you can can you just take your hands out of your pocket so you don't expose me yeah just keep an eye not too tight quite the same is there anything sharp in the bag any [ __ ] you if you two want to take him in if you do the search and you and matt run her in yeah so what she's doing training right when the detectives were tracking crawl just before his arrest luke saw spotted something that could prove important as i followed them they put some in it in the green recycling you know the clothes bank yeah i don't know what's in that they're swimming in that closed bank if you and beachy run him in yeah me and chris weren't looking at that bin literally we were in the car parked up by um xavier's weight and he walked past us so we thought [ __ ] it we just walked down the road and followed him and just got hold of him but luke saw him put something in one of these bins up here which so when i've walked around here he's [ __ ] out of sight but i saw her standing in between the main rig and the trailer yeah she's underneath here with a handbag on the floor and him doing something but i didn't pay too much attention but before that he walked straight up to that bin there the clothes bank put something straight in really quick sharp and then just [ __ ] off [Music] don't drop your phone in and there's a small scrunched up tesco's bag that look like trainers on top see the laces underneath the handle right we're gonna have to find out how to get the key for this good afternoon it's um ds cox here from norfolk police in norwich we've just had um someone put something in the clothing bin in norwich that um we think that he's trying to hide property and we urgently need it to try and pinpoint the bag they were carrying luke grabbed some cctv from nearby she's carrying the bag we come from over there [Music] it looks like red handled [Music] all right nick's getting something from kingsland to go and get the keys to bring him here there's shoes and they fit the pattern you know what the pattern looks like hexagonal little pentagons that's five-sided pentagon so yeah right you sure happy yeah now they're in custody tommy kroll and his partner can be confronted by detectives once again [Music] tommy when you arrested around 1326 on your person and police officers found a small quantity of what they believe to be class a drugs okay so i'm further arresting you and suspicion of possession of passaic drugs okay you can speak privately a member of staff about personal issues depend on drugs [Music] kroll has one item of clothing it's hardly worn brand-new yeah did you go for specific splash shoes i'm thinking that tesco bag there possibly shoes that one over there definitely looks like it's got shoes in it from here anyway [Music] i will touch nothing though [Music] it looked like a white bag yeah so the exact pattern we're looking for on the base which is really really quite good to be honest with you it's a better than we could expect he's got a brand new pair of shoes on in custody that he bought today at four plus one so it goes a bit of weight to towards the case really so it's quite good really pleasing really good when the pair is searched crawl's partner's bag contains some items that could be stolen property and important evidence one two three diamond rings the oldish gucci watch but there's also something more sinister and her knife where was that that was in the lining of her bag so we emptied all her bag and then i just shook the bag and tipped it on the floor and the knife came out through a small hole in the lining as they make further follow-up calls the items match ones stolen at the recent burglaries okay cheers bye she had a gucci watch stolen and some other from caddo road hello beautiful marvellous we didn't find any stolen property on tommy but we found all style and property on her if he got to found the stolen property in his pocket it's almost game over him so tommy would be exploiting the fact that she's no trace and she's not known to police so she gets caught in property she's not going to be in much trouble as he is the detectives believe they now have a much stronger hand they have enough evidence to confront both crowl and his partner about the burglaries but they must still get their tactics right right now what i'm going to do is we're going to interview her first okay and the idea of that is that as we go on through that interview you'll then disclose the cctv to her and say right you haven't account for being in the area but let me tell you now you're a cctv of you knocking at the front door what i don't want to do is tell her about the footwear before we interview crawl because they've got the same solicitor once we come out of interview with her we'll then go into kroll and we'll interview him on the basis of girlfriend seen knocking at the door and we have footwear marks at the address he's trying to get a sort of a lie out of him effectively as the interview goes on we're then dropping back the fact we found his footwear but that's what the challenge phase at the end [Music] hello hi sir chris and beth from cid after you thank you if they can get his partner to talk they'll have more evidence to confront kroll with the ideal scenario is that we put the pressure on her to talk and we give her the evidence and she turns around and goes no it wasn't me it was tommy and he introduced him into it tommy quite clearly said to go no comment now for her no comment could be one of the worst things she does because ultimately if she has got a reason to be there and a reason to be involved and there is duress involved and other elements we need to know now so we can present that to the court later on the whole structure of interviews is that we slowly build up the pressure for them to realize at a certain point well no i am a bit more involved in this and the police know i'm more involved in it so we're here to talk about um three burglaries and um a possession of a knife which you've been arrested for if there's anything uh that we say that you don't understand just let me know okay first of all you've been arrested for possession of the kitchen knife tell me about that can you comment okay can i ask do you intend to answer no comment to all questions in relation to the knife yes okay i want to ask you about um some property now which you had on you when you were arrested okay the watches that you've got in your property have been identified from one of the victims these burglaries is that you've got stolen property on you confirmed and stolen can you account for that potentially a lot trouble here we've got a small space of time to try and get to realize the fact that talking is probably in her best interest if she has been forced into it i'd imagine inside she'd probably be panicking a little bit so we've got some cctv which shows a female which uh appears to be you can you tell me about that okay if that was you what were you doing and you go to the front door and knock on the front door is that right um there's no one else at the front of the address with you is there anyone else anywhere else is there someone at the back of the address no comment you smiling is there something that you're thinking nope okay so before i switch the recording off is there anything you want to say are you protecting tommy okay with his partner refusing to talk the detectives must now confront tommy kroll with the evidence they already have last time the detectives confronted tommy kroll in the interview room they couldn't charge him have the cards now turned in their favor tommy kroll he's in custody again we're in a better position we've got foot marks at scenes and we've got what we believe are the shoes that we used to those burglaries so our plan for interview now is really around that crucial piece of evidence that he doesn't potentially know about that we can use to strengthen our case against him we need to show he was wearing those footwear at that time tommy could say to us i ditch those with someone else extremely unlikely we've got to prove it otherwise if tommy kroll remained silent this time it could harm his defense but if he can somehow find a way to cast out on the evidence it could sway the crown prosecution service against charging him you've been arrested for three burglaries and possession of class a drug so that's what i'm going to ask you about in this interview if possible i'd like you to look at me when i ask you the questions it helps me know that you're listening to what i'm saying in the morning i'm listening right yeah just go on with the interview yeah i don't have to say [ __ ] i don't have to say anything but you are right you don't yeah and that's what i'm that's what i'm going to do okay all right okay tommy i want to ask you about some cctv that shows a lady walk into the front of that address tell me all about that are you aware that she was at the front of that address with someone like tommy going no comment is what he's ingrained to do the stakes have changed because obviously we know that we've got more evidence the fact we've got the footwear he won't know what we've got in our back pocket you were seen on cctv at the norwich probation office at 12 42 on the 6th of september 2019 wearing what appears to be some night trainers you tell me about those trainers [Music] some shoes were found in a clothes recycling or clothes donation bin those shoes have got the same tread pattern as footwear marks recovered from each of those three burglaries and then today you've been seen throwing away some shoes with the same footwear mark as those burglaries can you tell me anything about that [Music] i think it's clear that you're doing burglaries together to fund your drug habit she's got watches in her possession in custody that have been identified as stolen from one of these burglaries come on tommy we know you did it just tell us about it this time going no comment may not be enough to get crawl off the hook but the detectives cannot yet be sure that the charges will stick they must now put the evidence to the cps to see if they'll charge both of them they've said nothing no one's admitted to anything no one's denied anything hopefully we get a good decision out of it yes okay we're not home yet though are we because nothing's absolutely certain i i wouldn't you know i wouldn't bet my life that they're going to charge on this [Music] there shouldn't be that many people in the whole britain going for cps charging decisions at three in the morning [Music] okay so here we go okay crop so this is what it's gonna be charged with yeah possessing a controlled drug of classic heroin yeah burglary dwelling in theft on third burglary running in theft on the 11th on the 12th that's all three burglaries as a result and the uh possession heroin her all of them possessing a knife uh burglary on the third burglary she went with everything we went for she went for yes good that was worth it yes with krall now remanded in custody awaiting trial the burglary situation in norwich looks very different if you look at this side we've got the burglaries from the first of september up until the 12th so it's quite clear you can see the the area around earlham and that's up to my cross that's where we think he's active in that little that sector really of north of norwich if you go from the 13th which is arrested until now to the 19th yeah it's only a six day period but it's significantly less crimes happened on this one so we've got five quite obviously we've got none in that massive area there we've got one just on the edge of my cross which has to tell you one thing we knew that crawl must have been active during the months we've not locked up anyone else since yes chance it must have been cool [Music] next time detectives investigate nine suspects found at a major cannabis factory that is seriously organized crime and the suspect in a vicious street robbery he's ripping the bag at my hand what's on the floor and as he's doing it he's sort of windmilling into her it's really reckless

Channel: Real Responders

Views: 17,204

Keywords: police documentary, the new detectives, forensic science, investigation, detectives, police investigation, cold cases, criminals, crimes, true detectives, real crimes, real detectives, private detective, police suspect no 1, police, interrogation analysis, interrogation room, real crime, armed robbery, suspects, norwich, norfolk

Id: Bm_ag3xD74k

Length: 44min 18sec (2658 seconds)

Published: Thu Dec 09 2021