The Emperor's Message To The Lion And A Fight Against EVERY PRIMARCH | Warhammer 40K Investigations

hello everybody and welcome to another video today we're going to be looking at lion l Johnson and more specifically the fight he had against every single one of his brothers and the message that the Emperor of mankind has left for him we learn about this in his new book The Lion Son of the forest by Mike Brooks and I got to say as a big Dark Angels fan I was very apprehensive about this book going in understandably because this is basically the first Primark return novel we ever got because Gillman came back in gathering storm and so this was a huge deal and I got to say he really stuck the landing on it it's a really strong book I am joined by quipster how you doing today mate hello everyone it's good to be here I'm doing uh very good as always I love talking about primarch I think just as much as you so I'm very happy to be here the lion doesn't seem to have like any authors that own him like some some of the primarchs have I don't think he's like the favorite primarch to write of any particular author and I often found that that was telling in the heresy but uh yeah thankfully it's absolutely amazing and I got to say even to this day it's like reading fanfiction in like the best way possible because you know we're talking about a lion who redeems the fallen and Li who's got all these incredible abilities and he's gone through this incredible character Journey so it's just a complete change from from what we've seen before yeah 100% I was talking to a friend of mine about this yesterday Yan actually and he was saying that this is possibly a contentious opinion some of the uh books that have the lion in them nothing's really from his POV there's not many times where he his like character his decision making his choices are like fully explored whereas I don't know if this is a little spoiler for the book The Lion Son of the forest is from his perspective you understand his thought process and we've never really experienced that before and he is a very underwritten character I think especially in the heresy the thing is about the lion in The heresy is that he literally doesn't seem to learn from any of his mistakes he go through these Journeys in one book with Gillman and Conrad K and then he makes the exact same mistakes in the next book I'm just like didn't we already go through this he is this very impressive figure this is one thing I spoke about in the video when I spoke about Gilman and the lion it's always under said how much both Gilman and sanguinius look up to the lion in a lot of ways Gilman outright says that he never looks up to anyone like he does the lion and Horus um sanguinius actually like tells the blood angels off and he's like not about gilan about the lion he's like none of you are ever allowed to say that you're ever allowed to question the Lion's loyalty he's above reproach he's in so many ways the eldest sibling of all the primarchs yeah even though he's not discovered first he gives off that energy and they will treat him that way he's always the one that like they compare themselves to and he doesn't compare himself to anyone he just does not care yeah I mean in in the new book it's really interesting to see a lion who is completely different now the Lion's sons in the book are so surprised at how different he is when he goes to planets he doesn't demand they follow him he's got this protectorate and he's saying look you know we'll protect you if you want us to but if you don't no worries and the Dark Angels are stunned by this or you know the Risen really and it really makes sense because what the lion has gone through is just magnitudes greater than I think what a lot of the other primar go through so obviously all the primar had to deal with the emperor's demise but the lion was also then betrayed by his brother slri and his planet was destroyed and his Legion which the strength of the Dark Angels is spoken about often in the Horus heresy when they appear and like you know even compared to the ultramarines and the the blood angels the Dark Angels are ridiculously drilled and they're so they're so up themselves and they think they're so impressive and they're just amazing at everything one of my favorite quotes that like really proves this there's a bit in the Li's Primark novel where they talk about how the structures of the Dark Angels are impressive by the standards of the Imperial fists that's such an insane like fact to have about the Dark Angels because like obviously that's the Imperial fists thing everything about them so amazing and to then find out that you know uh well it turns out not all of them betrayed him in the end but some of a lot of the Dark Angels did betray the emperor it's just completely forced him to re-evaluate everything about himself there's a a minor little thing that as an impr children player kind of got me a little bit um about the uh the first Legion you know when the Horus heresy Dark Angels transfer sheet one of the big ones is um supposed to put it on like the side of a Spartan or a land Raider it's like a like a grim reaper that is on a piece of artwork uh somewhere it's like a it's like a Spartan and that's on the side and the passage underneath it talks about how the Dark Angels are good at everything including art and it's just all the art they make tends to be quite like dark and om and ominous and as an children player I was just like screw you guys like that's our thing you can't have everything but they do because that's their whole deal they're the progenitor they're good at everything they're the Marines that everyone aspires to be a perfect example of that is a bit where one of the Imperial fists has a duel against a dark angel and the guy who's doing this jeel is the head of the Templars so big deal this is a big boy one of the not best if not the best fighter in the entire Imperial fists and he gets taken on by one of the companions I think from the Dark Angels and before this fight happens one of the things that the imperial fits are talking about between themselves is oh God the Dark Angels neo fights make our veterans look like children are you going to be okay in this fight obviously he's not but the comparison there I think is fascinating because it just goes to show how leagues ahead the Dark Angels are like supposed to be compared to everyone and it's the same with the lion yeah absolutely and then they go through this gigantic humbling and we get to the son of the forest and the main part we're going to talk about today is actually towards the end so this is a huge spoiler for for the book If you haven't read it but I feel like enough time has passed now if you're going to read that book you you'll probably at least have started it so to get to this scene the line has gone through this massive Journey he's encountered sons that are loyal to him sons that are not loyal to him he's had to quell some of his own sons and actually kill his own Sons even though he's now on this mission to try and save them in general but uh yeah he has also developed this ability to enter this mythical Place known as like a a mirror version of caliban and the watches in the dark are there and at the start of the book there's this area that he's told not to go to by the watches in the dark cuz he's not strong enough and then he makes his way back to Mira calaban at the end of the book and he says like you can I go this way now like am I strong enough and the watches in the dark say I don't know uh you might be let's let's find out so anyway he goes there and he encounters well we we'll get straight into it the the very first person that he encounters is actually Leeman Russ he walks up and he sees Leeman Russ and Leeman Russ is of course very angry because he's always very angry well actually I say of course but really it's quite shocking to the lion that Leman Russ is so angry with him Leeman Russ calls him a traitor and the lion knows that Leeman Russ knows this is not true because they met after the hor is heresy the lion actually stabs Leeman Russ but he has one last attempt to go Leeman Russ into a fight because in his deep state of grieving he just cannot process the fact that the emperor is now stuck on The Golden Throne and to the primarch it it very much feels like the emperor is dead even though as we know in 40K he's he's technically not but at the same time when he sees Leman Russ Leman Russ calls him a traitor and the LI says you know you know that's not true they get immediately into a jewel and one of the reasons I wanted to talk about this passage is because we get brief overviews of the Lion's relationship with every single Primark essentially because it's very quickly revealed that this Leman Russ that he's fighting against is not Leman Russ it's some sort of demon or a warp entity this demon actually transforms into another one of his brothers he transforms into Horus lupaca the warm whereas Lono Johnson is the first born Horus lupaca is the first found and those quips I was talking about earlier this puts them in this place of like the big brothers of the primarch a lot of them kind of view them in this regard and Gilman talks to the lion about this and the heresy and says that like the lion is the only one from his point of view that Horus thinks is his equal and uh interestingly they never really ever got along it seems because they have this um big argument that's covered in I want to say angels of calaban on the top of my head after Luther and a bunch of the other Dark Angels sent back to calaban because of the fact that you know Luther was uh uh he delayed saving the Lion's life when it was threatened uh in a previous campaign then they're sent back to calaban and they're obviously very bored so when Horus lupaca calls for Aid Luther leads the Dark Angels and they go and Aid him and after this they defeat whatever threat it is I can't remember what it is now they're like celebrating on the vengeful Spirit or is lupaca I think typhus is there arabus is there and a bunch of Dark Angels they're all celebrating this great victory in the great Crusade and then suddenly it's revealed that Lionel Johnson has snuck aboard the vengeful spirit and nobody has noticed him coming so there's just all of a sudden a wild lion l Johnson very unhappy with Horus lupal he says you know you don't ever spend my sons lives and uh yeah he rebukes Luther very publicly um further pushing Luther away we actually find this out in the Luther's novel where we find out that those actions then pushed Luther towards typhus or Typhon at the time and arabus and into the arms of chaos so if the line had maybe got along with Horus a bit better here then things might have been quite different yeah I remember that bit in the books and thinking like oh God why why because you can tell it's a turning point yeah it is it's definitely a hell of a it's a hell of a confident move from The Lion Horus is of course revered and loved by everyone and he just walks right up to him and DS him off to his face and it's one of those things that you know you see lupac Cal being this ultimate politician because he kind of takes it in his stride and he's like yo hey come on man he's a bit better than I am but he he encourages his brother to to kind of calm down so anyway yeah Horus lupal and Lionel Johnson they have this fight and there's a bunch columns around they're throwing each other through things and uh then the demon changes into another form and this time he changes into Perabo now Perabo represents for the lion or maybe his greatest mistake in the Horus heresy because in the book fallen angels we find out that the lion actually gives a bunch of Siege weapons to Perabo that are later used in the siege of Terror throughout this book he's kind of claimed these weapons from Sons of Horus and then he just gives them to Perabo not knowing at the time that Perabo was a traitor I think to the Lion's credit nobody knows that Perabo is a traitor at this point the emperor doesn't even know so yeah on the one hand you know you can argue that it's was a bit of a screw-up but everyone screwed up at that point in the heresy right yeah I mean that's the entire basis of the drop site M Massacre yeah yeah true no one knows four Legions have turned and they do and everyone dies yeah I will say the lion has a pretty funny retort when the demon turns into Perabo he says you might at least have found a brother for whom I ever cared oh that is a burn God damn as we go through like the interactions in this scene with each of the primarchs it really hit me that that there are a bunch of primarch that in the heresy novels haven't met one that Springs to mind immediately is korax and the lion there's nothing between them in the entire heresy well it is really funny that you say that quipster because the next Primark the demon turns into is Jagger tyan and to your point there so I found this out the other day and I think you'll find this really interesting actually mate so this was a video researching on the lion and I was reading the background books for the Horus heresy this is the previous edition of the Horus heresy they wrote a bunch of background books now those books have a lot of lur in that just isn't covered in the novels like the whole thramers Crusade for the dark anals for example is is basically in there and in that book it actually says and this is a relatively recent book I don't know exactly what year but I would guess like 2019 is it says that Lionel Johnson's closest brother is Jack aai KH now the white scars for example do appear incent of angels they support the Dark Angels during the thamus Crusade but to my knowledge Jacka taan and the lion have never met in the books and they're described as being the closest the Lion's closest brother which is a really interesting idea like another classic I love that and like when you get told that immediately you're just like oh okay I see it I see why both Legions have half of them turn traitor even in terms of their personalities like they're both quite reserved aloof there's a lot going on you know behind the scenes like I would I would say both of them are actually classically introverted they have this you know great panoply of war and one of the big Whit scar things is they into art and calligraphy and stuff they're both not very showy at all yeah I think they just have a lot of personality traits in common that they would sort of meet each other sort of feel each other out take a bit of time to get to know one another like perfect example the K's first meeting with sanguinius doesn't go how you think it would there's no like a brother brother hug or whatever the K is very laidback aloof reserved doesn't immediately succumb to sanguinius' like charm and Charisma and I think that's the same thing yeah yeah EX that's the same thing with um how I expect the khah and the lion to interact they would both sort of like feel each other out and then slowly get to realize like ah he's just like me okay cool this works next interestingly the demon turns into Magnus the red again not a lot of relationship here however clearly they have sparred at some point during the Great Crusade because uh the lion actually says now I know you are a fraud Magnus never hit that hard which I think is like I will say it as well you know we we've spoken about how much we like this book and it's a really really fun book and I'd recommend you read it even if you're not like a Dark Angels fan but like yeah there's so many quips in this in this scene like there it's really really back and forth you got to remember the primar are brothers and so that comes through very clear I really love that especially because there's two ways you could take that him commenting on Magnus being weak which is like just untrue because Magnus is physically one of the two biggest primarch true for a start he's massive and I think it's more a comment on the fact that one thing I think people forget about Magnus is that he's one of the most friendly primar like he kind of just wants to be everyone's bro and so like there's a I can't remember which novel alludes to it but he's got this very strong sense of like bonom me um with the rest of the primarch and so him not hitting that hard is I think more of a comment on the fact that Magnus pulled his punches because he didn't want to hurt anyone in the same way that Vulcan did as well yeah no that's fair I mean I guess that's the thing like if people do want to play the game like technically of who is the strongest Primark and who would win The Jewel and the fight and all that kind of thing you kind of have to give it to Magnus because if they ever were properly allowed to go all out unless you happen to have a load of sisters of Silence in your back pocket you're you're out of luck against magic powers is going to win yeah like bringing planets into reality and throwing cities of people he becomes the size of a Titan like just it's complete nonsense that he this man can do of course cuz he's you know got the emperor's psychic gifts or at least a good chunk of it when morian comes up next we get another comment about the lion looking old this has come up a lot in the community because a lot of people are wondering why is lonard Johnson so old now and how big of a deal it is now interestingly for me this scene actually tells us a bit about why the lion looks old from my point of view you so this demon that he's fighting it doesn't have like omniscience it doesn't have total knowledge of the primarch it is using the Lion's perceptions of his brothers to create these forms so when Leeman Russ is really angry at him well that's how he fears Lan Russ would treat him when he sees Horus lupaca he's actually going off the last time he saw him and he's adding in bits of description that other primarchs gave the lion of Horus lupal because the lion never saw Horus during the heresy so the fact that mortarion brings up this fact it's like look you know are you just old now you just getting old are you worn down and broken he says to the lion and I think you and I have spoken about this before Ashley kryster like personally where I think a lot of how the lion looks now is his own creation so the the general reason given if you completely out of the loop is that the lion wasn't actually put in stasis for 10,000 years he was just asleep so he's a 10,000 years which for a Primark looks about 15 right so that's the general idea but at the same time primarch are warp beings the emperor used warp stuff in their creation and so that means that his physical form is just like a manifestation kver korax talks about this when he finds lar and he says like you know I am what we all were and it's a very loose description that we get of what coras corx looks like now but we do know that he's like this kind of warp Shadow Raven entity some people like to say he's like a demon Prince that might be accurate it might not be accurate black Norby writers don't like to pitch and hold themselves a future book so I can't give you too much information it's very kind of vaguely written he can take human form if he wants to but he is like a warp thing so the form that lar Johnson has now is in my opinion I think is going to be his own creation he just thinks he's old he thinks he's gotten much and so that's what we're seeing there we actually see Leman Russ in the end of his Primark novel gray and old but Leman Russ shouldn't look that old by that stage one of this is the same thing where Leman Russ just thinks he's much older maybe he thinks he's gotten slower or perhaps it's the other way where he thinks he's gotten wiser and more mature so his appearance has changed to reflect that I I think there's a good chance that's what's going on when we see the Lion's um appearance yeah I agree 100% and one thing I find kind of fascinating about this novel in general is just how far the lion has come in terms of his emotional maturity I think the one scene that really gets me is the bit with with the early Lion's God which is just essentially a bunch of humans so funny so like it's a bunch of that like appoint themselves to be his bodyguards and he just kind of rolls with it because he's like ah they need to feel important so I guess I'll let them do this despite the fact that he's a Primark he doesn't need like 20 humans to be his bodyguard at all and he knows it I think they know it too but he wants to make them feel useful he wants to make them feel part of everything and he just would not have had that emotional maturity back in the in the heresy to understand yeah you're absolutely right this really shocks his sons the line's one of the tallest primar so he has this huge stride but he slows down a lot as they all follow him the lion keeps entering Mira canaban and ending up on different planets but they don't have furniture for these 10 foot demigods so like none of their beds are the right size and of course all of the these like nobility on these planets like panicking and like trying to find the biggest chairs they have to sit on um which yeah it's actually quite funny there's a bit with that um like that with Gillman as well when he first comes back they have to get his old furniture out of museums so he has somewhere to sit after the lion has a bit of a a bout with mortarion uh Mion mataran uh the demon actually transfers Into rogul Dawn who's your boy actually gripster and my boy this is interesting because again this kind of shows some some fear that the d The Lion has daor says to the lion that the emperor never trusted you that is why he sent you far away into the darkest corners while keeping me close which is just not a very Dawn thing to say Dawn wouldn't say that's definitely coming from the Lion's insecurity in my point of view the lion talks about this in his primarch novel he has a conversation with the emperor where he does have this kind of fear during the Great Crusade he's done all of these horrible jobs he says that he brought like more Wells into compliance than any two primarchs but he says he's not going to be remembered for anything other than destruction every Crusade the Dark Angels go on the emperor chooses Crusades purposefully that are going to require you know absolute deadly force whereas primarchs like Gilman and lar these are primarchs that you know build these incredible civilizations even though L goes bit the top they are going to be remembered for these things and the line says something like you know I'm just going to be remembered for fire and Ash here he seems to be suggesting that he fears that the emperor actually didn't trust him which doesn't seem to be the case still I get the insecurity because it's kind of like Perabo on steroids because pero was sent to do all the like really crap jobs that no one else could be trusted with because he's the one with the mind and the skill set to do it and it's kind of the same thing with the lion he's sent to do essentially all the horrible exter jobs this is the worst possible race we've ever encountered the only people who can do it are the Dark Angels and the lion it makes logical sense but if you're on the receiving end of that it's also a bit like oh why do I keep getting picked for this what in my character that has been created makes me good for this and is that a bad thing for me if you've watched my video on uh The Lion and the men of iron then you'll know that actually the emperor has a huge amount of trust in the line lion and one of the Lion's roles during the Great Crusade and this doesn't really come up in the novels is the fact that the lion is entrusted with this secret plan to destroy the mechanicum should they ever rebel against him and in actual fact the emperor gives the lion permission to destroy the mechanicus sites that are loyal to the emperor if the lion believes that they might one day be used against the Imperium so the lion actually under the emperor's orders destroys loyalist mechanicus elements in secret throughout the great Crusade I think it's like eight times said he does this the emperor clearly has a huge amount of trust in the line because you know none of the other primarchs um that we know of have anything like this it goes back to something they mentioned in the lion primar novel in that the Dark Angels are supplied from Earth from Terror specifically they're not given stuff from Martian forges H for that reason I assume that does come up in the the Dark Angels books because of course all all of the iron Wings crazy technology the Dark Angels know that the mechanicus would go absolutely mad for it I will say if there is any Prim Mark that potentially if you want to go full conspiracy theorist and you want to say that there's a Primark that the emperor trusted above everyone else there's an argument nowadays to be made for alarus who the demon then turns into because you know we've spoken about about his primarch novel where there is this theory that you know technically alarus was the first primarch to awaken and he was incredibly close and shooted by malador and you know completed all of these secret missions for malador and the emperor over the ages so potentially he's he's more loyal we'll see alfaris and the lion actually do have a little bit of an interaction that's pretty cool this is covered in alarus is primar novel alarus sneaks into all of the legions over the great cre Crusade and especially when they are recently found cuz he wants to kind to check out what his brothers are actually like but he does it in secret and he does impersonate a dark angel and then he like uh impersonates just an alpha legionary because he meets the lion face to face and when he does this the lion just thinks he's a a member of the alpha Legion because alarus hasn't technically been found at that point and so the lion doesn't know he's talking like his lost brother in his well technically not his lost brother but you know what I mean he like smashes the alarus head into like this pylon and it said like that he really enjoys that so he just keeps doing it however then the demon turns into angron and angron because the lion says like you never had the stomach for a fair fight and the demon turns into angron it's like a fair fight not a lot of dialogue from angron as you can imagine again you know the lion and angron don't have a huge amount of interaction really always thought that was a shame because like they're a really interesting J J position next to each other because you've got the ultimate controlled focus of the lion against the uncontrollable rage of angron the lion has this whole TI raade or this whole like speech where he talks about him compared to Gillman and how he is a man of focus he's like the John Wick of the the Warhammer universe and he is exceptionally good at focusing on a single thing and that's like one of his like big strengths Gilman's strength is that he can't focus on any one thing he focuses on everything it makes a lot of sense because that's kind of why the lion is so good at everything um and why you know Gilman for example wouldn't be the best swordsman because he's got so much going on like you know he's he's thinking about 20 different things at once exhale power users away another Primark that of course we don't see much interaction with is Ferris manners however yeah he does kind of challenge the lion and he says where was your Vengeance I don't really know what more expected him to do really cuz he did actually bring Vengeance um Aon Kos so you know could have been worse then the demon turns into korax and korax says where was your guile now I believe corx and the lion do meet up towards the end of the heresy with Leman Russ I think in a short story yeah I think so I'll cut this out if that's wrong but I believe they meet up right before they go back to Terror sorry these are rolling quite quick succession so we don't get a lot lot on them so then the demon turns into fullrim and fulgrim says you never were good enough that is definitely something that F Grim would say I think we can agree um very much very much in line with what he would say and uh interestingly and this is something that comes up in the Lion's book when the demon turns into loran next it's quite interesting because loran makes quite an obvious comment that you'd imagine where he says now you accept the worship due to a god now this is something that the lion Ponders over in the book he does absolutely acknowledge that he's being treated basically as a demigod because everyone in the Imperium treats uh the Emperor as a God and this was one of the kind of smaller surprises in the book and it it obviously makes sense because as we've talked about today the lion has grown so much in his character but I think most people were expecting the lion to put up a great greater resistance to the ideals of the Imperial Creed but he doesn't really he kind of accepts it he still obviously believes in the Imperial truth but he allows people to worship the emperor he doesn't stop it and I think people were kind of expecting that dichotomy between him and Gillman that Gillman would be the reasonable one with the Imperial Creed and would allow them to worship but the lion would put his foot down is something that the lion is very concerned with it does say that he does kind of correct people on this when it comes up but he doesn't go out of his way to kind of diminish the belief of the Imperial Creed the next Primark that the demon turns into is an exciting one because it is Route Gilman himself now this again I don't think matches at all with what route Gillman is actually feeling so Gillman says to the lion you dared preach to me about my faults but when the chance came to return to Terror you decided Ed to burn some planets instead which does not match at all so if you've watched my video where I talk about Gilman and the lion I actually go through the last meeting with the trium where sanguinius Gillman and the lion you know say they goodbyes now it highlights two things the first is that Gilman is not annoyed about this fact at all no one pushes back on the line when he says I'm going to I'm going to take my lessons from the heresy and use them against our enemies so if you're very familiar with the Lion a very common criticism within the 40K in the community is that the lion didn't go to Terror with Gillman straight away however we find out in the siege of Terror that the lion has quite a big impact and in a way he saves sanguinius' life so the lion destroys the traitor home worlds for two reasons the first is that it will pull some traitor elements away from the siege of Terror and they'll obviously want to leave and go and defend their home worlds that impact won't be too great however what the lion discovers during the heresy is that the warp is a reflection of our reality and so if you destroy the traitor home Worlds the traitors have no rooting in reality anymore and so their warp components are weakened and we actually see this Through The Eyes of sanguinius the angron actually gets weaker when neria is destroyed and so so when sanguinius fights against angron he's actually slightly weakened then he doesn't gain that power back until the welas claim a new planet in the eye of Terror so the Lion's role here is is not as controversial as you might think in the galaxy and Gillman certainly didn't have a problem with it and in fact logically it was probably the right decision because the ultramarines are more than enough to get uh Horus to lower the shields on the vent Spirit they arrive in the end of um Echoes of Eternity I think and then in yeah end in the death the the shields are lowered so it's yeah the ultrams are more than enough and they aren't able to actually get through the warp storms surrounding the soul system so up next sanguinius does ask the lion had you not done so would I have lived again sanguinius was perfectly happy with the lion going on his Venture but again this is appealing to the Lion's kind of insecurities here because one thing the lion does say in this book you know I said earlier that his closest brother was um Jag taan but his most beloved brother was sanguinius and the fact that the lion would call sanguinius the emperor that on its own is incredible because the lion would never do this um to for any up next is the big man himself it is Vulcan um again not a lot on Vulcan and the lion they are both in the unremembered Empire technically but uh yeah there's not a lot between them would I have died Vulcan hisses to the lion so again the lion doesn't understand the concept of perpetuals at this point in time he doesn't understand what Vulcan is he doesn't know that he's almost certainly still alive so to him he thinks the lion vulcan's probably dead I think I find it most fascinating the things that the lion doesn't know because like we have this perception that you know we're outside the universe looking in so we just kind of know everything but a lot of the drama is from you know what don't these characters know and understand super basic stuff like Vulcan can't die not everyone knows that yeah even his own Brothers the Revelation that the warp that you can destroy things in our reality that will weaken demons we know that because we know the warp is a reflection of this reality but that's not known because the emperor kept so much hidden the final Primark that the demon turns into is the one we haven't spoken about yet so you can probably guess it's Conrad Kur who the lion has an extensive relationship with through the heresy and the thramers Crusade and uh yeah there's a very very long game of cat and mouse it's uh definitely a part of the heresy I think people will point to when you look about where it gets too bloated because they go through like the same fights again where they're like oh my God Kur blew something up and ran away who'd have guessed so Conrad Kur says you know at least I knew which of my Legion deserve to die and then the lion says they all did it's really interesting because of course this is the lion's probably greatest insecurity we've talked about a bunch of them today but the fact that the Dark Angels are no longer this perfect Legion and they can fool it brings everything into question for the lion the one thing he was so certain in was the fact that his sons were like above all the other Legions and they were so amazing they were the first the first Space Marines to be made and they were the true angels of death they they coined that name and they taught the other Legions and the lion was found and they accomplish all these wonderful things but no you know it kind of all feels for not now because a lot of his sons or some of them I will say do do betray the Imperium which is a bit of a gut punch um and we're very used to the Dark Angels having this traitor element in 40K but again as you say Crips the stuff you don't know the lion didn't know this I mean the thing is and we've talked about this before way before the lion came out I remember we talked about how would the lion react to the modern Dark Angels chapter and I think we basically came down on the fact that he would react very badly to them because they've strayed so far from this like nightly ideal that he had for the original Dark Angels Legion they've become this secretive horrible uncaring organization which arguably you could say oh they were just like that in heresy yes but the modern Dark Angels Legion doesn't care as much about the wider objectives of the emperor and the Imperium that the old Legion did they will do they will drop a mission that is critical for like you know sector of the Imperium if if there's a fallen nearby they don't care they'll do it and then yeah I should say this is the end of the book so for gets the emperor shield and he destroys the demon and the book ends ler Johnson has returned the other thing we want to talk about in this stream is this character called The Old King who appears throughout the book now most people believe that this is some sort of Avatar or some sort of symbolism for the Emperor and he exists in this mirror calaban and he doesn't talk he doesn't communicate with the lion one of the things that suggests he's the emperor is because the lion can tell that he's wounded and of course we all know in Warhammer 40K that the emperor is in constant pain and his body is absolutely ravaged and although when you look at him you can't see any wound lion can just kind of tell he's like this wounded creature the lion kind of finds the king multiple times throughout the the book and one of the later times he finds him he finds him in this C castle and as the the line approaches the king can't talk which again kind of matches this idea of the emperor that the emperor doesn't actually speak directly to people he has ways of communicating which is something I've talked about on the channel before but he doesn't really communicate as uh you or I would and this this plotline around the lion needing to find the right question to ask the King which is really interesting yeah 100% I thought that bit of the book was absolutely fascinating we do get some really interesting symbolism the lion pauses when he's a few Paces away from the table the luster of the wood is hidden beneath a p a patina of dust I don't know what that is but but three objects sit on it arranged as though with some ritual significance a golden candelabra more ornate and those decorating the walls is in front of the king and on his right on on his left is a spear or Lance also golden the blade of which is wet with blood directly in front of the king is a broad golden chalice with figures molded around the bowl so when you hear those things of course you can't not think about primar from my point of view quipster so the golden spear absolutely makes you think of Russ the emperor gives Russ the dionan spear did I get that the right way around the the apollonians one of those two Dian the Aon yeah I want to sayar yeah yeah these Spears are opposite essentially lias spear if you get stamped by it like reveals a truth to you so it cures Horus of his Madness temporarily Constantine Valor spear it allows you to learn truths from those that you kill and uh This Is Fundamental to valor's plot development to 40K in my opinion because as Valor stabs demons as he stabs the vengeful Spirit himself he starts learning all these truths from like horrific entities so uh yeah he's obviously got a level of knowledge about the warp that no one else in the Galaxy does at this point there's also another thing with the spear immediately when you said Spear and spear with blood on it immediately I'm thinking srus because s Gus's main weapon is a spear and he's a blood Angel it could be sanguinius but there's also the Chalice I thought the Chalice represented sanguinius it could all be about sanguinius and I think there is this kind of like theory that people went to of like oh is this some sort of suggestion that sanguinus could be resurrected I'll be honest guys I don't think that's ever going to happen I don't think that's ever a plotline GW will go down purely because it's undercuts a lot of the setting in my opinion but potentially in in the long long long run 30 years or so down the line we we'll see I mean I will personally say I think I have no knowledge of this I have to carry at this I think they'll bring back all the primarchs in different forms yeah I think that's fair I mean they're just worth too much money the amount of money that mortan earned was insane it's a ridiculous amount of money that Prim marks earn GES the work you're talking tens of millions of pounds given the people bu armies when Prim marks come out like it's it's a huge deal my thought was spia is Russ the blood on it is a reference to the fact that Russ needs some sort of help from The Lion and I think if anyone can find Russ the lion is the man because there's often this talk of the primarch being connected and Leman Russ and the lion have a connection stronger than maybe any two primarchs nowadays and so I think there's a good chance the lion will actually be able to trust himself to find the Leeman Russ somehow what was interesting was yeah the the broad golden chalice I thought that was just a talk about Lion's role in protect protecting the line of sanguinius um if you're not familiar the blood angels are nearly destroyed on multiple occasions in Warhammer 40K and gilan absolutely recognizes how important they are and sanguinia certainly the emperor probably know of this important future for what we think is Dante where Dante will be this Golden Warrior that protects the emperor at some point in the future so I think one of the Lion's purposes is to actually protect Dante and the final one the golden candelabra more on Nate than those decorating the walls like this is something about illumination this is something about knowledge that I think the lion needs to find some sort of knowledge for the future so that that's my guess for what this means is I think the lion needs to savor us and he needs to protect the blood angels and I think he needs to discover some sort of knowledge to save the Imperium that will Enlighten everyone I'm not gonna lie you've blown my mind right there like you really have because I was I was really struggling to find the metaphors in those for sure I was concentrating more on the words and like the scene itself like for example the idea that you've got this Old King who's sorry the the whole patina of of dust like on the um yes someone has come to thank you a platina is a fine layer thank you for that yeah basically it all kind of shows the state of the Imperium the desperation the Decay the idea that it needs to be saved things are not going well the lion is a vital figure coming in to sort of not save the day but do what he can I think towards the end of the scene it's almost like the the wounded King is like angry at the lion for not quite asking the say the correct questions as if he's desperate and he's just like could you just get on with this and like do what you're supposed to do although for most of dark Imperium Gilman actually doesn't remember his conversation with the emperor that's what's so crazy about it it's also the case that he he does know that the emperor doesn't seem to really like him the way the the emperor talks to gilan but I think the reason for that is because the emperor he will tell his sons what he needs to tell them that won't necessarily be what they want to hear oh sunny boy I love you so much give me a hug it will be probably some harsh truths so yeah the idea that he's going to be very Stern with his sons makes sense ZB has commented it could be the astronomican golden candelabra that's a very good point obviously could be some to the Candelabra very very good show I was just gonna say what's the greatest amount of physical pain you've ever been in I I don't know um I had a pend when I was a kid that was quite bad yeah did you ever try talk to anyone when you were going through that uh I yeah I see where you're going yeah yeah exactly like if you are undergoing that level of physical pain it gets to the point where quite Snapp it doesn't yeah it doesn't matter who you're speaking to if it's your mom your brother your dad your best friend you can just be like oh just do what I need you to do no matter the love and respect you have for that person like if you're desperate you'll just say things like you'll get straight to the point yeah there's this thing that goes on where the Watcher says you did not ask the the correct question to the king to the lion and you know the lion asks who are you how may you be healed he starts to say like where do you come from The Lion is trying to figure out what the correct question is and clearly there's some sort of message that it's trying to deliver to the lion which is what we all need to kind of figure out the plot line for the lion has been planned out quite extensively um at least for the nearby future undoubtedly black Library will have a loose road map already of how the primarch are going to return or at least the next few I've been really impressed with the direction that 40K especially in terms of the lion is going so like those arcs of omen books I personally thought the narrative in them was very impressive um especially compared to psychic Awakening and everything they set up there the the lon coming back the fight with angron the to the tulture machine and you know The Echoes of calaban that whole journey I thought was fascinating and sets up a really interesting Journey for 40K now and the lion so I'm I'm fascinated to see like what happens where do they go no absolutely so uh yeah I will say the to finish off this Scene It Gets it's really interesting so um earlier in the book The the lion saw the king in a boat and he was surrounded there was like these shadows in the water and as the Candelabra shines he sees again there's like these weird shadows surrounding the king and the Watcher has said that these things these shadows will destroy him which I guess does actually go a long way to suggest that the Candelabra represents the astronomican and some way so potentially the Lion's journey is going to intersect with that story line Chris R story line which would be really interesting that would actually really cool that would be a good intersection Chris R is very good connecting stories together it's one of the things he does very well in his uh region Shadow and Vol of teror Series so that would be really cool to see yeah but the lion doesn't really understand he he doesn't come to any proper conclusions by the end of this book as to what his role is supposed to be um he's very uncertain on how to fight against these mysterious Shadows which we assume are demons that's obviously the the go-to answer there yeah 100% I think that particular bits a little bit cut and dry into what we expect that to be but um you know what after talking about this the whole time I'm kind of desperate to go and buy a lion now uh do you mean or a exotic cat uh you know I was to just buy buy a lion to keep in my flat just like just a a massive wild animal that would be really cool that would be really cool yeah know I have he's actually right next to me if you are if you are wondering why I am so biased towards the Dark Angels uh that's why they are they are my favorite army they they have been for very very long time like I said hats off to Mike Brooks it all just kind of fell into place and yeah we've now got this I mean I'm not going to lie the lion cements himself in my opinion as like one of the most complex characters in all of Warhammer now he has an actual character Arc for a Primark he's not just like incredibly stoic and amazing all of the time he goes through a genuine Arc he actually comes out as like a really interesting character which is what you want I agree the thing with characters that are that special and that powerful it's kind of like the Superman problem because like okay Superman is essentially the sun god like he is all powerful there's nothing he's bad at and so okay how do you make a character like that interesting it's not the things that people are good at that make them interesting it's the things they're bad at it's the the self-doubt the insecurities those are the things that make characters interesting and that's what you have now with the lion he doubts himself he doubts his strength he doesn't quite know what he's doing as well he's in a very unfamiliar universe and so like he's kind of fumbling around doing his best I think there's the one of the worlds that he liberates and like he goes to a different world comes back to that one and it's been destroyed he's not perfect he's just doing the best he can and so yeah I like that he's not written to be this all powerful super being MH I think if for the people that aren't familiar with the storyline and haven't read the book I think a lot of them go immedi immediately to like oh so obviously Gillman will like step aside and let the lion Rule and it's like no I don't think I think that's what the lion doesn't want that now and you go back to you know Anor the lion is absolutely he's not at Anor but he's absolutely one of those Prim marks that's like I should have been a warm I started later than Horus I accomplished just as much as he did you know blah blah blah blah blah blah but now Li's very clear he he wants to serve his father's Imperial there's this fantastic quote you know that I've said many times on the channel where he's like you know I failed my father I may have also failed my brothers I will not fail my sons and I just thought it's so beautiful because it just that's proper character that is that's that's actual narrative for a Primark it's really really cool so I yeah I'm absolutely loving the dark angel storyline I I can't wait for the Codex because that would have a bunch of new law in it very very exciting times for me 100% couldn't agree more but but P some Dark Angels now um but thank you so much for watching this video I hope you enjoyed it um yeah this was the first time I've done one with two people I was slightly worried about the technological side of things whether my computer would hold up for me to actually stream this thank you so much for sticking with us all this time and I hope you enjoyed it let us know what you think in the comments about uh yeah everything we've talked about today and uh we will see you again in the future I have no doubt and happy Halloween as well have a good one all right bye guys

Channel: Sandman of Terra

Views: 68,834

Keywords: space marines, space marine, warhammer 40k, warhammer 40k lore, warhammer 40k dark angels, warhammer 40k dark angels lore, warhammer, 40k lore, dark angels, dark angels 40k, dark angels chapter, chaos space marines, horus heresy, dark angels horus heresy, cypher 40k lore, cypher 40k 9th edition, cypher 40k, warhammer cypher, warhammer 40k fallen, lionel johnson, lionel johnson lore, Ultramarines, roboute guilliman, warhammer 40k primarchs, warhammer 40k podcast

Id: ofJMtLU7RCE

Length: 53min 28sec (3208 seconds)

Published: Wed Oct 25 2023