>> Hello. I am Claudia Morales with my colleague,
Michele Glymph. On behalf of the Music
Division, we are so excited to welcome jazz drummer,
composer, bandleader, producer, and educator, Terri Lyne
Carrington, as the 2021 Library of Congress Jazz Scholar. In a field where female
instrumental expression is scarce, Carrington
is a powerhouse, three-time Grammy award-winning
recording artist, drummer, Doris Duke Award recipient,
NEA Jazz Master, and Founder and Artistic Director
of the Berklee Institute of Jazz and Gender Justice. Dear Terri Lyne,
welcome to the Library. We are so happy to
have you here. >> Terri Lyne Carrington:
Thank you. It's my pleasure to be here. >> Claudia Morales: So Terri
Lyne, as far as your engagement at the Library, together
with pianist Kris Davis and bassist Linda May Han Oh, you will present a
virtual performance of the "Terri Lyne Carrington:
The New Standards." But before we dig into
the pieces and composers, can you clarify for all of us
what the jazz standards are? >> Terri Lyne Carrington: Yes. Jazz standards is an
accepted repertoire that jazz musicians have
used for a long time as a common ground to
come together and play, where you don't have to
even know each other. You don't have to speak
the same language. You can call a tune. And it's kind of a badge of
honor, where you have to know as many jazz standards as
possible, so that, you know, you don't get left hanging out
there when people call tunes. These songs have come
mostly from Broadway plays from I guess, the '40s. And then some contemporary
composers entered into this jazz standard canon. People like Wayne Shorter,
you know, Dave Brubeck, Herbie Hancock, of course
-- just so many people -- John Coltrane, Miles Davis. But what we noticed is, women
were left out of the canon. So I'm not trying to suggest
we don't play these beautiful compositions that everybody
can bring their personality to and put their own spin on. And that's one of the great
things about these standards. They're kind of an open canvas,
the way they were constructed. But we are suggesting
alternatives to this canon. And not just alternatives
by women, which is what our focus is with
the book that we're creating, which is "New Standards: 100
Lead Sheets by Women Composers." But also, alternatives
stylistically, so that some of the modern approaches to composing can be eventually
considered standard, too. >> Claudia Morales: So for this
program you have a all-women composers program
that includes pieces from great female composers,
including Mary Lou Williams, Geri Allen, Maria Schneider, Esperanza Spalding,
among others. So what was your inspiration for
the song and composer selection? >> Terri Lyne Carrington:
Well, one correction is that the performance is
actually not just trio. It starts off as a duo. Then it moves to trio
with Kris and Linda, and then Tia Fuller is added. So it becomes a quartet. And we also have an
emerging artist, Devin Gates, who plays bass and
sings one song. So there are five people
involved in the performance, and there are different
configurations of these people. In the repertoire is -- repertoire that I've chosen
from the book that we're working on now, which will be 100
songs by 100 women composers. But we offer a preview to this
book, which was offered I guess, about a year ago now,
online as a free download. And those are the songs
that we're focused on for this performance. So those are songs that
have already been offered as a preview. But right now I'm very excited
about the hundred songs, because they're so varied, and
people all over the place -- Canada, and Japan, and
France, as well as, of course, American composers. >> Michele Glymph: Terri,
I have one question. The late pianist and
composer, Geri Allen, had a strong influence
on your career. What was your relationship
with her? >> Terri Lyne Carrington:
Well, Geri, you know, was a peer of mine,
even though she was -- I don't know exactly how
much older, but not -- I don't think it was quite a
decade, but somewhere in there. And I met her when she was at
Howard University, and I was, I don't know, maybe 14
or something like that. And I went to D.C. and
played with Keter Betts. And he had this woman on piano. And it was great for me to
see somebody that was young, and somebody that, you know,
played jazz and was serious about the music like myself. So then when I moved to New
York when I was 18, Geri was one of the first people
that I reconnected with. And we did some playing
back then. That was around the time that
-- also that M-Base was formed, which was, I guess,
a bit of a collective at the time in Brooklyn. And I did a little bit of
work with them, and I shortly after that moved to Los Angeles. And I stayed in touch with
Geri, and I had her come do gigs with me whenever I could. We toured in Europe, and
I also recommended her to Wayne Shorter. So she was on one of his
albums, "Joy Ryder," with -- along with Patrice
Rushen and myself. And you know, we
just stayed in touch. And then I moved back East, and
that allowed me to, you know, play with her even more. And it -- I had a gig in
Israel, and I called her and Esperanza Spalding,
and Tineke Postma. And this was only the
second time I had played with Esperanza. And there was just something
magical about that gig, and it inspired me to do the
"Mosaic Project" with the four of them as the foundation. And from that also, we decided
to form a trio with Esperanza, and Geri, and myself,
called ACS. So Geri has been in my life
since I was a teenager, though I think it
wasn't until she passed that I dug more deeply into all
of the work that she was doing. It's really terrible when
it happens, when you know, people are appreciated
more when they're gone. So I've spent the last few
years really trying to honor her in various ways, and you know,
do whatever I can in making sure that her legacy is
where it should be. >> Claudia Morales: Terri Lyne,
I heard you making a comment in other interviews about
this time that you spent with Esperanza and Geri in this
trio, and what it meant for you as a woman instrumentalist
to be playing with other women, in this trio. Can you talk about -- a little
bit about that, this experience? >> Terri Lyne Carrington: Well,
I think it's really interesting, because Esperanza and
Geri both commented that it felt different to them. They both felt that they were
able to let their guard down and not feel the same
burdens that they feel in -- sometimes in all-male
environments -- on stage, you know,
backstage, traveling. You know, the -- things
like just not feeling as much judgment
about their playing, or worried about if
somebody hired them for the right reasons, or
if somebody was, you know, going to hit on them, or any
of these things that go on. It's kind of like chatter
in the back of your mind. And so they felt that it
was the first time maybe that they could let
go of all of that. And at the time, I wasn't
feeling any of that. And I was not focused
on it, and I thought, "Oh, that's interesting. Okay, I don't feel that,
but that's interesting." And then later, I think I look
back at that and feel like, you know, it's possible that
-- actually, I'm certain -- on some level, that I
was burying, you know, some of those same feelings. And that it's been, you know,
a woman's short way to success, is to kind of, you know,
replicate the dominant culture. And because I realized that
those things could've been going on for me all of these years,
and I was just ignoring it, because that was the way I
needed to be, to be successful. And it actually worked
for my personality type. It wasn't, you know,
I wasn't sensitive to those things so much. But now looking back, you
know, I wonder what parts of myself I wasn't accessing,
you know, due to having to fit in, in a certain way. So them saying that really -- even though I was not
necessarily in agreement, really became an aha moment for
me, and a lightbulb went off. >> Michele Glymph: Let's
go back to the early days. >> Terri Lyne Carrington: Okay. >> Michele Glymph: I'm
curious about your childhood. By age 10, you had a union card from the Massachusetts
Music Association. And by 11, you had
a full scholarship to Berklee College of Music. How has growing up as a child
prodigy affected your career as it is today? >> Terri Lyne Carrington: Well, I never really embraced
that term. I'm just one of those
people that, I don't embrace labels
in general. I never liked "prodigy,"
but I never liked "jazz" either, until
more recently. You know, I was just like,
"I'm just a musician." But you know, my
dad always says, "You can't run away
from who you are." And so I think a lot of things
happened to me when I was young, really, not because of, you
know, some kind of, you know, prodigy aspect to my,
you know, early career, but more because I had access to
these legendary jazz musicians, to the jazz stage, and
because of my father. So you know, once again,
patriarchy is in play, but this time, you know,
it worked in my favor. And he knew everybody,
because he was, you know, a jazz musician too, and he was
able to say to them, "Listen, you know, my daughter can play,
and you know, give her a chance. Give her opportunity. You know, I wouldn't
lie to you." And so they did. And I guess what I
come away with is that there were other
young women that probably had
the same potential, but didn't have the access,
you know, didn't have that kind of support or mentorship. And so that's, you know,
something that, you know, I use just to explain to people,
you know, how things have to change, and how things
have to be different, and why. You know, one reason why some of
the things are the way they are. >> Claudia Morales: And
as a young musician, a young child growing
in this environment, did that idea ever come to you? "I'm surrounded by all -- not
all, but mostly male musicians, and I'm am not -- I'm a girl." Did it -- did that ever
come to you in that sense? Do you find that different? >> Terri Lyne Carrington: You
know, I never thought about it. And that's -- was
a honest answer, and I feel irresponsible,
because I said that for about 40 years. Not 40; maybe 30, 35 years. That's something I
never thought about. And I didn't, you know,
mainly because I felt like I fit in fairly naturally. And again, that goes
back to, you know, your personality,
your upbringing. So many different
things are involved. I think about when
I was 10 years old, and I met Buddy Rich
for the first time. And he was in a bad mood,
and he was notorious, you know, for his moods. And somebody told me
not to speak to him until he kind of,
you know, cooled off. And I went up to him
anyway, and he said -- somebody introduced
me, and he said, "Well, you better not be any good." And I said, "Well,
who's going to stop me?" You know, so at 10, I think
I -- I was already who I am. You know what I mean? And -- >> Claudia Morales: Yep. >> Terri Lyne Carrington: I think that we can't
expect that of everyone. And you know, why
should there be? Everybody should be able to
be their authentic selves. And it just worked out for
me that I was able to go up against anybody that I felt,
you know, for whatever reasons, maybe didn't feel like
I should be there. I had ownership, you know. And it's music. And at the same time, you know,
do that, but not in a way that, you know, was a turnoff. So it's this delicate balancing
act, you know, that women have to do to be successful
in male-dominated arenas. And if -- it can be natural to
some women and not to others. And that's, I think,
when I realized that. Because I think -- I
always thought about, "Well, I was this way." Or "This didn't stop me." Or -- and that was not the right
position, you know, to uphold, when speaking to young
musicians especially. So I think finally, I spoke
to some young women at Berklee about five or six years
ago, and you know, I say with an open heart,
because I had to really be able to hear what they were saying, and not keep comparing
it to myself. >> Claudia Morales: That
sounds just so human, right? So human to compare
other people, to compare their experience
to your -- it's part of the -- of our humanity I think. >> Terri Lyne Carrington:
Yeah, and I think that, I guess empathy, you
know, is something that has to be in the picture. When we, you know, truly
try to put ourselves in someone else's
shoes, I think that's when our humanity
is at its finest. >> Michele Glymph: Terri,
you wear so many hats. You're a composer, a teacher,
a musician, and a singer, based on some of the
things that I've heard. How do you manage
all those things? And if for some unforeseen
reason you would have to choose, what would it be? I'm sure all of it make
you Terri Lyne Carrington. >> Terri Lyne Carrington: Well,
the singer part is more for fun. And it's something that I
really love to do, that I don't, you know, so much see
as my identity, I guess. Meaning, I mean, I love it
as much as I love playing. You know, maybe even
more sometimes. But I don't feel that I have
an instrument, so I don't claim that as part of my -- what is
the term now -- multi-hyphen. But yeah, I see myself
as, of course, a drummer, as a producer, as a
composer, and as an educator. And people keep referring
to me as an activist. So I'm trying to, you
know, maybe embrace that. And you know, there's I think,
so many things that you have to understand and have to
be able to do on some level. I won't say you have to
totally excel at everything, but there's so many things you
have to do in this day and time to be successful
in this industry. Or you have other people that are doing all
these things for you. And in jazz, it's just, you
know, not that type of art form, that if you need, you know,
commercial success is not there, for you to have huge
teams of people. So you know, it's one of
the things I try to talk to my students about,
being prepared in all these various ways. And so if I'm going to
write something for you or for anybody else, you know,
whether, you know, a blog post or a op-ed, or a forward to a
book, or a preface to a journal. You know, these are the things
that I've been asked to do, and I want to do it, you know
-- liner notes for albums. These are things that, you know,
I want to do, and I want to do in a way that I'm proud of. And you know, there's just so
many business things as well, that we have to be aware of,
because there's, you know, been a tradition
in this business, of taking advantage of people. And also, the way the women have
been looked at in this business. So it's even more important
to me, because I've felt that so many men have been
deemed geniuses, and have people around them that really
serve them in a certain way, to make sure that their genius
gets out into the world. And I think that's beautiful,
but I do think that, you know, women should have, you know,
some of that support, too. And I'll be doing this
multidisciplinary project that will be, you know, like,
an exhibit, and just has a lot of arms to it --
called the "Jazz Without Patriarchy" project,
with the Carr Center in Detroit. And one of the things that
we'll be exploring is this kind of invisible labor that women
have not had from others, and that they've given,
you know, to so many. Anyway, yeah. >> Claudia Morales: No,
definitely, the support, I mean, women -- we are great to
support others, right? To be there, and sometimes
to be there so well that nobody can see us. It's just so hidden. So -- >> Terri Lyne Carrington:
Yeah, we know that's when we, you know, talk about how erasure
is real, you know, in the music. Because there was a lot of
women that were playing, that were exceling in music,
that just never got the credit and were not archived properly. So many that that's just
a whole other, you know, can of worms to really look at. And yeah, so the invisible labor
that we do, and then the fact that we're also, you know,
historically have been erased from history, you
know, is a lot. So that's why, you
know, what we're -- part of what we're trying to do as an institute is
corrective work, and looking at these things, and
trying to point out, and again, in some ways correct some of
the things that have happened. As we also point to the
future and try to, you know, look at the future with
a transformative lens, [inaudible] how to
change these things. And really thinking more about,
these days, not just reporting, you know, what's happening
presently, or reflecting, or trying to correct the
past, but really, you know, pointing to a different
future that's more equitable and more just. And trying to, you know, do our part in helping people
imagine a different future. >> Claudia Morales: Speaking
of women that are not known, visible, Mary Lou Williams,
the American pianist-composer that you have included as one
of the composers of the pieces that you have, you --
I remember you saying that she held many
women in her arms -- on her arms, in terms of being
there for all these women who are musicians
and composers now. What is -- how did you get
to know Mary Lou Williams? >> Terri Lyne Carrington: I
think maybe what I said was that we stand on her shoulders. Maybe that's what I said. And that's different
than, you know, her -- because she wasn't necessarily
an advocate for women. And you know, yet we stand
on her shoulders, of course, because of what she did and how
she played, and the body of work that she made, and I'm sure
somebody to aspire to be like. But just like myself, she
mentored primarily men, because that's who's there. You know what I mean? I mean, that's like, when
you're serious, you want to one, be considered as
good as the next guy, if that's what the
standard is, right? So that's why we're also,
you know, play on words, why we're trying to
create new standards. But we're constantly compared
to men, because that's the sound that established what jazz is. And so in order to be
successful, you have to, you know, embrace that. And that's what your goal is. So I think, you know, that was
Mary Lou's goal, absolutely. And if she didn't want to be,
like so many of us, you know, called a woman jazz musician,
you know, which you know, we're just like, you
know, the next guy. And within that, sometimes that
can stifle our understanding of those struggles of other
women that aren't considered, you know, just as
good as the next guy. And also it -- I think it can
make us, you know, not sensitive to how we may be contributing
to the problem or replicating, you know, these systems
of oppression. And you know, during the times
that Mary Lou Williams lived, I think, you know, these conversations
necessarily weren't being had. Not in the same way. Maybe they were, but I mean, I have no way of
knowing, actually. But I understand -- I guess
I'm saying that I understand where Mary Lou was coming from. You know, she just kind of in
rejecting things that have to do with playing with other women. I mean, she flat-out
said she didn't want to. And I did, too. But I ended up doing so
in my own time, you know. Enough of it was pointed out
to me in a way that I felt like I can, you know, make
"The Mosaic Project" album. Because this is,
you know, I'm -- this is what I'm feeling
authentically at this moment. I'm ready to embrace this idea
of playing with other women, and that there might be
something special in that. But it took a long time
for me to come to that. So you know, I'm not being
critical of Mary Lou, because I totally understand
what she was going through, and you know, what
she had to do. And it's interesting, because
on one hand, she didn't get all of the credit she
deserved, which you know, is unfortunately, normal, right, for women in male-dominated
spaces. But on the other hand, she's the
woman that everybody references, you know, it's like --
from back in the day. Because there weren't enough to
reference a whole lot, right? So she's the exception. And so we start to
look at, you know, this kind of view of exceptions. I mean, my view is that if
you're an exception to the rule, that means it's a problem, because there's a rule
in the first place. >> Michele Glymph: Exactly. >> Terri Lyne Carrington: Yeah, so what's interesting is
how somebody like Mary Lou, or even myself, was
comfortable, you know, with being an exception. And I think, you know,
that's why we look at how we have contributed
to or benefited from oppressive structures,
you know, of in this case,
sexism or misogyny. And also, how that has
synchronous happening with race, you know, with racism. And yeah, so Mary
Lou's story is complex, and there's many
layers, you know. And it makes it really
interesting, because there's so much to learn from her story. And you know, at the same time,
you know lift her in making sure that people really, truly
understand her genius. >> Michele Glymph:
You said something that made me think
of this question. What do you think
is the role of music in race and gender justice? >> Terri Lyne Carrington:
The role of music. Well, firstly, I don't think
music is separate from life. >> Michele Glymph: Okay. >> Terri Lyne Carrington: You
know, I think that, you know, in certain African cultures,
there's no word for music. This was pointed out
to me by Sona Jobarteh, who's a master kora player. She's the first woman
-- that has, you know, been deemed a master
kora player, from the griot tradition,
in the griot family. There's only I think, six griot
families that produce, you know, these master musicians. So when she said that, that
really made me think about this. I mean, we use language
because we have to. I know, but when we
look, sometimes things, you know, didn't have words. So if music didn't have a
name, it was just a part of the function of life, I
ponder, you know, of that. So for me, if it's such a big
part of everything I do -- and I really do try not to
see or feel a separation. Because when I play, I
don't feel a separation for myself and the drum kit. And when I play with
others, that's the goal. Luckily, you know
like, some, you know, once you reach a certain
stage, hopefully you have that feeling more than a feeling
of disconnect with others. But you know, in playing
in settings that -- either my own bands,
or just with, you know, amazing musicians as a side
person, the idea of many in body and one in spirit is the idea. And then -- so carry that into
your relationship and connection with the audience
or the listener, is you know, along
the same lines. So when I think about it
like that, I can't really -- I can't easily talk
about the role. Because that's kind of I guess,
asking me, what is the role or purpose of my life. And so that's what I'm still
determining in some ways. I do feel like, you know,
finally I was able to commit to something that has opened
up my life in different ways, and in very important
-- what feels important. I feel more purposeful
and more mission-oriented. So that's going to reflect
in the music I create. See what I mean? So as I develop myself
[inaudible] we are reflecting in the music. So I think our role is how to
be so connected with our art that there is no separation. So how we are in the world,
how we function in the world, and what we feel our meaning
and value is in the world, that's what comes through
in our art as well. >> Claudia Morales: And along
those lines, Terri Lyne, what does it mean for you
when talking about education, as an educator, to teach,
to work with jazz musicians, jazz students, and teach and
work with them in terms of race and gender justice as
a guiding principle? What does it mean for you? >> Terri Lyne Carrington:
Well as a teacher or educator, first of all, I think
that when we choose to do this, it's out of love. Love for the art form
or subject, you know, that we're teaching, of course. But also, you know,
love for humanity, love for the next
generation, you know, love for the individual
students, you know, trying to -- I mean, there's not
a better feeling than when you see students
really develop and evolve right in front of your eyes. I think for the longest period,
I got my musical satisfaction from playing on stages,
and you know, hopefully affected
people in a positive way. And that was from a distance,
you know, but you felt it. You know, you felt the energy,
and it felt good, and it's part of what keeps you
doing it, right? Not just the accolades, but
when somebody comes up to you after a performance,
and they say, you know, "This changed my life," or
something crazy like that, you know, you feel like, "Wow." You feel a sense of purpose. So when I started teaching about
17 years ago, I started feeling that same feeling, the
same type of gratification. But it was different. It was one-on-one. And at that point I
realized, Okay, you know, I have to balance, you know, my life with teaching
and performing. And I don't want to have to
ever choose one or the other. It feels important, you
know, for me to do both. And then we really get into the
responsibility that teachers and educators have, and how, I
think, unknowingly in many ways, but how, you know, in
jazz education, you know, it's been irresponsible
with many things. Developing, you know, this
merit system, merit-based system that determines, you know, who
has entry into jazz education, not based on the very
things that, you know, or the foundation --
foundational characteristics of the music in the first place. You know, so you have these
situations where, you know, well, one, it became
commodified, jazz education, so that immediately affected
some communities unfavorably, right? You know, people couldn't afford
to get the same education. And then the focus became
on technique, and you know, virtuosity as it's
defined in, you know, Western European
classical music. So I think we have to really
reassess jazz education, and be able to put more
importance on some of the things that were hugely responsible for the music being
created in the first place. And something simple like
the blues, I see less and less importance on
that, on understanding it, musically and culturally. So I think we have to really
assess where things have gone, and maybe redirect some of this. And also, you know, we're
responsible as institutions, to hire, you know, the
people that can really focus on these things and teach them
in a way that's, you know, not just textbook driven. And because what I've
seen is that a lot of the younger generation,
they're coming out sounding the same as, you
know, sounding like, you know, like these are the
things they focused on. And you know, things like
the blues and the history of the music in the cultural
context have, you know, almost been erased as well. So I don't know how you have
the music or an art form without a cultural context,
you know, that was created. And so we -- we're not
studying history as much. And when you look at
European classical music, from what I've heard,
you study these composers in hostory classes. You know, and so there
are organizations -- I know the Hancock Institute and
others that are really trying to get jazz, you know, in
history classes, you know. And I totally, you
know, agree with that. So but you know, what's
happening right now in this country, I mean,
the beautiful thing is, we're able to have
these conversations. Whereas before, I mean,
you couldn't really talk to white people comfortably some
-- well, at least, I couldn't -- comfortably about racism. And now I feel, you know, a big
burden actually, being lifted, and being able to have
these conversations honestly and openly. And I think that
that's really important in moving the needle forward
with both racism and sexism. >> Claudia Morales: Great. >> Terri Lyne Carrington:
You know, so it's the same, you know. For me, I can't,
you know, separate. And I think that that's another
thing that we try to talk to our students about, how -- the intersection of all of
these justice struggles. And how, you know, you
should use the concept of, "None of us are free
until we're all free." And how can you look
through the lens of the most marginalized group? You don't have to be in that
group to look through the lens, to understand, you know, some
of these things, and to realize that -- I mean, you had
to believe, I think, philosophically, that none of us
are free until we're all free. And that might be
the first step. >> Michele Glymph: I agree. Well, what I do want to say
at this point is that it is such a thrill for us to
finally connect with you. You know, we've been
going through this process for over a year, and here we
are with a virtual performance. And we all would've much
preferred to have you in our Coolidge Auditorium. You're also our Jazz
Scholar this year, which we're very excited about. Unfortunately, you can't come to
the Library to do your research, but we want to extend an
invitation, an open invitation to you, to our institution
once we open. And we would be happy
to pull any material that you would be
interested in viewing. So you have an open invitation
to the Library of Congress, so feel free to drop by. Contact Claudia or
myself, and we will lay out the red carpet for you. >> Terri Lyne Carrington:
Oh, thank you. That's -- I so look forward
to when that can happen. >> Michele Glymph: Yes. >> Terri Lyne Carrington:
That will mean a lot, right? That means that life is coming
back to [inaudible] you know. >> Michele Glymph: Absolutely. >> Terri Lyne Carrington: But
yes, I really look forward to digging in the archives, and
you know, just exploring things. >> Michele Glymph: Yes. >> Terri Lyne Carrington:
So I will be in touch on that, for sure. >> Michele Glymph: Absolutely. >> Claudia Morales:
Sounds great. And for the ones who are at
home, don't forget to tune in on Saturday, April 24
for the virtual performance of Terri Lyne Carrington. So that will be fantastic then, so we'll see you
until the next time. >> Terri Lyne Carrington:
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
