Jazz Conversation: Ron Carter

from the Library of Congress in Washington DC hello my name is Larry Applebaum from the music division here at the Library of Congress anyone who has been listening or paying attention to jazz in the last 50 years will know our guest today he's a composer and bassist who has worked with just about anybody you can think of he appears on more than 2000 recordings he's taught for at least 20 years at the City College of New York he's also the author of five books and it is my great pleasure to welcome Ron Carter to the Library of Congress Larry thank you for the invitation and good evening good to see you again thank you I want to start sort of at the beginning or even the pre beginning I'm curious about your parents and why don't you tell me a little bit about each and specifically what qualities did you get from each of your parents we should probably go backwards I think okay they one the qualities I got from them was that we our kids my citizen brother are as good as anyone else and don't let them tell you differently my father worked for the bus company in Detroit the dsr and he drove for 25 years my mother was a housewife we had I have six sisters and her brothers were eight of us kids and she earned extra money for by doing laundry for the neighbors and for people who needed that kind of stuff done ultimately their inspiration for us to do things other than to have a bus for life and taken a laundry I have six sisters two three three four were living they all have at least bachelors in some topic nursing one's a lawyer three four two two schoolteachers my brother went to the service early so he retired from the Army and retired from the police force and got a associate degree from the local cosmos Sciences while he was alive and I'm wherever I am so one of the things that clearly instilled in us was a need to to not just think outside the box but make our own box and we could do that best by going to school and get a better education did they nurture your creativity I'm not sure I'm not sure it's the right word that certainly encouraged me to practice and make less than what the money was investing in me you got you have a family of ten and we come in the 40s when work was hard to come by and this is 20 years before Rosa Parks's bus situation so we were scenes of difficult times my father was in difficult times but he managed to make sure that we are watered with clean clothes we had soaked to worse with and plenty food to eat did they both live long enough to see your success yeah my mom actually died two years ago at 99 and a half Wow and my father lived to like 87 or 88 so their chance to to come to some concert since we were in a tuxedo a couple of times you're sure there was a great done yeah good great time yeah though you're best known as a bass player your first instrument is the cello yes what drew you to the sound of the cello well when you're 10 years old anything sounds different than the take them out to then play ball or those kinds of things sounds law park and just sounds in general seem to me way back then to us 70 65 years or so ago it seemed like a nice quiet sound to me and of all the sounds that were most easily produced from that with a trumpet and there's a trombone and the clarinet the cello seemed to produce the most satisfactory the most acceptable sound as an amateur right away so as let me try this okay so when you're first introduced to the cello repertoire what pieces spoke to you the clinical scales did it the popper early treble solos and of course the Bach cello suites require to my library up until I got to my third year in college third in high school to 1954 I guess I played their library 5554 Mia you mentioned high school you attended Cass Tech yes this is in Detroit and it was it strictly our high school for music and arts or did it cover all curriculum well think in today's educational system would be like a junior college for high school kids we don't automotive there was design there was a architecture there was music there was math there were song classes I mean there was a complete college curriculum for high schools who had to take auditions to be accepted into high school started the 10th 11th and 12th grades how did you audition what did you play for them together man I can't remember you going back taking the dust off of the cob website but I was playing bass at the time so I'm sure to place a bass concerto or something and have good grades from my other high school transfer credits and great still to cast AG are their teachers at casts that you remember that taught you the most probably the band director who passed away last year Harry bijon this music program had a marching band had a concert band had two orchestras and two choirs listen since high school mr. Beecham was the band director for the marching band and a band director for the concert band the marching band I played tenor and consequently the Eastside Alto and to see em conduct rehearsals and make them make them productive to make them have another air of importance about them given all we were doing there that's a great athletic department at the time we're all doing to the solfege was technical piano and we had a full college loaded as a 16 17 year olds and he was able to given all this activity at going outside of the concert band into console bands broccoli some we played a note that just kind of caught my attention right away throughout your career you worked with a lot of heavy leaders and impact you're one yourself what do you think makes a good leader I think its ability to look at the situation step outside of it and find some solutions right away can you give me an example come to a nightclub and found out that there's no drums and the piano is inadequate well you know you've signed the contract you probably got the deposit and all the way to find a solution that's going to be acceptable to most people because everyone's not going to be happy with it it's to step back and say okay that's what we've got to do you got to do this kind of this yeah this and you have two hours to get it done we'd be back in time to start this you know speaking of solving problems which is one of the great challenges what do you do when you find yourself working with a band or in a rhythm section that's not really feeling it together how do you get that on track well I've been in a long time so you got the color probably one of those guys I think you know most rhythm section players are interested in playing together and they kind of occasionally they will let their enthusiasm get in a way of the logic of the music and but they converse and they all have the language skills you know they want to talk about they talk about this 2 plus C talk about this and I'm pretty good at analyzing those issues and I don't mind as I have done taken the piano player or the drummer whoever I think needs the most immediate help right then to make this thing work techno sides in look if you do these things now this project can take take shape as long as you don't do them we'll be here for a long day and let's not do that and I've been enough of reputation to these situations and enough I had a credibility number that they kind of trust my judgment and and whether they believe it's going to work because I'm only basically in the band they gotta take my word for it for as long as this situation last it works out okay when you're working with your own group and you bring a new piece of music talk a little bit about the process what do you actually need to explain or is it all intuitive do people sort of grasp your intention right away well I think intuitive this is kind of kind of overrated I think really yeah I think everyone needs to have something explained to them no matter what their level is in this particular topic hmm so how would you do that how would you explain I would tell them I thought in tune that we had rehearsal four months ago and had a song I had with not a song for the foot quartet that's going on tour next next month this month and I explained to them that this piece was assembled in bits and pieces I had written a piece here and it didn't work by itself so I put aside and I've written a piece here and they didn't work very well so I had these four pieces of my bulletin board that didn't do anything by themselves I thought because I wrote them there was some merit to it I was going to split in the trashcan and let it so I said I won not in two considers and some tape you know the expression cut and paste in the old day that's what I did took these four pieces and assemble them such a fashion that they made better sense in this order then the order had written immediately the pieces so I'll explain this to the band you understood that this is like a a quilt missed a job not with the seams show here we go is there a correct way to always play your music or do you allow your musicians to access the interpretation I mean everyone has has their own words and I'm just interested in I have the same words I'm as interested to see them making their own sentences out of my set of words as yes in seeing that they're said the words match my intent of the music so they're they're completely free to play it as they wish one of the things that I hope happens with my songs so that they can be successful without me being there to tell a guy or the lady what I want out of this piece if the piece can stand by itself if I can email the guy piece of paper and said this is a tune you asked for but I can't make the say I'm out of town here's a here's the music you wanted just kind of look at it and play with them what you think and I have to trust that there's enough content enough interest in my particular song that I'm sitting for this person that they'll be able to find with the rearrange my letters my words to make their own sentences and the story they want to hear with this kind of background you mentioned the example of sort of cut and paste on one of your compositions do they ever come to you fully realized yeah yeah the same come not so much like that anymore you know I'm kind of busy so I kind of make these notes when I can and I don't have that kind of substitute complete three hours to compose I don't have that time anymore I'm like yeah traveling or changing my books my apartment or talk to my grandkids I don't have that kind of that kind of pure time I mean I shouldn't have it's like other things I want to get involved with so when that when I do have a moment I have a little note that make on my bulletin board and stick it on a bulletin board or front of my music stand and I still kind of do bits and pieces but case now have enough of a I think of a valid idea a musical thing that I can kind of hear it in this full melodic form at one time then I just surrounded with the bass and write it out and I won't get to it another week but it's a complete paragraph it's a complete chapter a complete song of 32 bars 16 bucks whatever form this song happens to stop at and I'm comfortable that's my passion at that time I thought this no comfortable take a chance out there works as a composer do you revise here were absolutely I mean I think there are very few composers who are really comply with their first attempt it seems to me those first attempts just opened doors to other possibilities so how do you know when you're done never like this had enough huh really okay um how much of your life is composed versus improvised a great deal traffic lights speed limits the cost of gasoline the cost of food ones look nice at this for this event all that has a cost and almost cost a basically on my control well I can't control is how far drive I could control what I wear I control how much of the clock correct that I want to have so it's about 60/40 60/40 yeah does that change over time were you always this way I've always been aware of rules I think about being aware of when it would take to make these rules not apply to me I have them successful that composition you learn certain rules in composition you find out what what the rules were for Bach what the rules were abusive what the rule what the rules were for whatever protocol what the rules were benny golson what the rules were for silver and once you understand that these were rules they worked but their framework with these rules your compositions need not abide by their rules but they certainly understand a process that they used that you can manipulate to your own fashion now I have a book called building a jazz bass line I've been teaching out this method for a very long time and this process shows the basis the student basis in my case all these choices that they have with the rules involved explain to them once you understand what rules are in place vii resolves this way this knows analyze is a passing tone or a lower neighbor or budget or once you understand what those rules are you're more than welcome to change these rules to meet the needs of your music but they should understand what the rules are your music as far as I can view what I've heard doesn't have a long shelf life once we get out of this room and is finished there can't be so for a young musician how do they know where the balance is between freedom and the discipline that you're talking about trial and error what kind of bands will take involved with what do the level of this group's are what the leadership of these groups are what the musical aim of these groups are is he really intent on this fancy of his music or this music bill to him or she's studying how his instrument works is he really wants me musician or he must be a hobbyist who plays on weekends she won't accept criticism that's not okay for them she won't have play with bands that aren't his art his favorite kind of music to found out can he help this music go somewhere else is one limited scope to what he wants to play only and all these factors determine what is about doing in a long run hmm are you a several self critical person yes as a musician but also in your life absolutely and so when you go back and listen to some of your recorded output I cringe you're right absolutely yeah even recent thing see all the choices I could have made and I wonder how come I didn't see this choice at that time well how could I have missed how can I miss this opening to make the saxophone player not play for three measures the bass has their power of and and I've seen and it's listening to the breakfast I made chances to make this excellently not play it for a whole bar if I can make a guy do that I'm okay I just want to control his thought process and I've listened to some records I've made and I've missed some opportunities they said well if I could go back in time I have one more chance at this sucker I'd be happy I could be I would take it in a heartbeat it's so ironic because we listen to your work and marvel at the choices that you make you could you also hear something different but you also enjoy what I don't get you enjoying one I hope to the best of my efforts you're enjoying the fruits of 50 years of practicing you're enjoying the results of being in this specific environment that I'm in and if you could understand in here when I'm really aiming for you appreciate how close I came to that goal but you wouldn't hear what I missed because I wouldn't allow that okay I'm going to know that creative people never stop learning I don't think so so what is it you're still working on then I'm still trying to look for ways to to to get the attention of my fellow musicians when I'm playing with them the bassist still thought of as that the guy was behind the palm trees you know I've got the biggest music stand you know I'm trying to have people I work with despite the reputation I bring to their situation that yeah I did this stuff here I'm here right here right now if you just give me your attention here's some other choices I'm making for you so I'm constantly looking for ways to comfortably grab them by the throat and just shake them for four or five bars to like the attention how often does it happen that's a shaken by the throw it's not all the Army did anyone shake you by the throat emotionally several times talk about that well when I was a 10 years old our SAS teacher told the class that though and this is this is a recall this this is a synopsis of his worth is that kind of you collocated or about linen lad you just going to dig ditches and I said man what is this guy talking about yeah and I can't speak that today and not learned I learned the my own to read just another things you know roots are certain words as a process of reading and analyzing stuff but I couldn't leave this guy's telling me that dumb the class that's what my parents man they went we had two floors then upon the fourth floor of our house man they were doing to two roots that we didn't have they were still upset so that and yet you learned from that yeah I know that that's what he thinks I got some back under the plan like I'm my own ball game and I got my own fans right here Geneva Judy Wilma Sandeep ed Dale and Carlton mom and dad I kind of team I'm okay with that you all you had your own plan by the age of 10 I knew that that wasn't I didn't know what I was gonna do I know that I wasn't gonna buy his plan for me when did you know that music would be your life problem I got into high school the Vista second den is like the ninth grade eighth eighth eighth grade and they had these music festivals look contests where each school district was represented by a certain number of players and said instrumentalist and they would play for a jury and they would say give you a little medal for what wherever you thought whatever Ranka thought you had well the first place the second place you know and I kept breaking this covering these things home that's it that me 12 years old I said ain't not that idea and you know my parents are proud my sister's oh look at the he got another one yeah I got another one the draw matters there's something other than that available but that's found my first real realization that this is something I could I guess the worth is maybe be success it rather than succeed in the general terms you still have those medals yeah do you save everything I did right knock I'm saved in here but what I've always done there is tried to save my recordings the sessions are mine and I've always felt that one if I don't make a conscious conscious effort to save these documents of my presence one no one else will and my grandson's asked my my wife or their mother what the grandfather do I want her to say well you go to the Library of Congress if you go to here you'll find his record of mm discs for him and these are the distance I want to know that they're Graf I had a history and then that's I'm one who initiates this process and begins to have a location where they can physically go open this coven see a magazine from Strad magazine a magazine from the National Society of basis or an award for Grammy unless they see these things available to them they sent a grandfather was just grandfather and I should be more important to them than just grandfather and as an african-american that cost 80 at some point they have a music one-on-one class to be a grandfather is a great thing now four times yes but you've had a significant impact on the language of the music of this country not just in the role of the bass but for everything you've done is it important is recognition important to you depends on what the other week it is I mean if I had a really great night on the bandstand I mean if if the things I tried to do on the best and worked in the context of that band and I was able to communicate them what I wanted to do without checking my finger or howling out if I can get that kind of communication level with them I don't need someone else tell me I played good because they know it and the music knows it and on those nights when when I've kind of fallen as I feel short of making that happen you know I won't Sunday my ego boosted need to sit down and collect my thoughts and say so you can have another night like this man that's not going to work there's a standards you have set standard that they expect and you guys deliver at those times they'll be easier to go to the my closet take all this all the proof of things I did well that's not what I can do because I did that I'm trying to trying to get to another kind of icing for that same kind of cake you know what does that other icing look like to play by myself between five minutes and everyone stunned at what happens hmm that's the other I see I'm sure you've had the experience where you play and people are stunned and it didn't move you as much and maybe vice versa how do we always know do we always know how well we do well we never really know how well we do as far as they're concerned and if we're able to step back long enough quickly enough from our performance we have a another kind of view of what happened during that event to attend any event I think sometimes our our view of our performance is so wrapped in it could have been better that case we missed the fact that these are the performance and you enjoyed it I'm trying to get to that space more of my head and how often does it happen I hope that if you ask me tomorrow the same questions I can say it happened last night we all hope yeah do you think that music or art is a luxury or a necessity necessity absolutely why the arts music they've been enough scientific tests to prove that kids who have music programs arts problems and their schools are much better citizens to much more productive to much more available for for exchanging views and not missing so confrontative in the warlike nature I think just those four events itself would make music valuable and valid if there was all there was to it but you have all these people are the same the same words the same notes but they found ways to make these same notes have different sounds now Bach wrote and sound anything like our favorite opera which sounds nothing like Miles Davis so what which sounds nothing like a candy barren conversation Sunshower we've got the same words and because we have these same words allows us to move our emotions in the direction that only this person can do I think it's just this special event this selectivity in this person that makes the arts for this person really especially then in his life and this basically then in his life if he has the wherewithal you can spread this event not just here but it between spirit to hear and they affect these people and have them here is set of words they didn't go here and have these people area set of words and I think because the arts are so personal and so impersonal and personal then that the complete stranger man it's a great piano player you don't care about his name can you play that some more that it's really great so Wow I don't know who you are there but I want to know more of you I know you're never you know you are it's just this combination of things that makes the arts so vital to known it is the success of my music jazz but the arts in general so you make the compelling case and I wonder why you think art or music is not a great priority in our culture well I think well and then I'm going any sound extreme right now I think we've been geared we people have been geared to have a very short attention span they've been geared to recognize success like this without what goes in to make the success possible and they're not trained and not geared to expect the results after what we call the long haul and in this case the long haul is practicing three hours a day is practical musical lessons mr. lewin gigs may not be the best for you music what you can learn fist me on these gigs it may be in taking courses you don't like in harmony in theory but they're valuable to your goal over here and I mean have no we're tuxedo John wanna do every night and then these facts are what makes it from here to here and people are not geared to accept this route do you want get on this thing that's the shape with pictures on call television that's the model of how they commit how they can work their way through life and I think unfortunately that that's never the case man you know the odds say that these people are going to end up on a major TV show like the person is right there that's not a chance for the most people and because they don't have a view of the Arts those in this box with the picture on it call the television that's their model and I mean they don't have a chance to get past this box you know but if they have music and school with their with their classmates the teachers who teach music well who can give them the love of the Arts let them know that even if you don't play good you still plan something you understand what this means for beats in the bar you understand and tune out of tune you understand a good another bad note even if you can't play those things night in and night out like somebody else can maybe you can't play at all after you graduate but you can go to music story you can even you can write music you can catalog music you can appreciate it certainly an opera or the jazz club and because they don't see these options because they aren't encouraged to think that there are things other than what they're allowed to see and force-fed darts happen at our time clearly it's not the money in making the event that the college football is what college basketball but I think if the music had that kind of exposure that kind of determination behind its some more than that it would make colleges you need to have football being the the lost child of the curriculum rather than the arts programs it blows me away man the major colleges departments music weapons have cookie sales man for four raise money yeah I can't believe that the football team is bringing that billions of dollars a year from TV and the game and the beauty part that there like a music standards don't work they trying to get the instruments fix out about money they haven't cookie sales to buy tickets I just can't believe that that's what we're looking at but we are I'll bet the math program does the same thing well yeah but we're talking fire artists yeah yeah I'm not I'm a derating I'm trying to find these lab look have you worried about those guys yeah okay um when you're writing your write with specific players in mind yes right - there I think abilities yes I think I have a good idea what they sound like have a good idea what the favorite register is can you give us some examples about that I was strong for Joe Henderson colobus 1.5 controls a very rhythmic melodic player then I mean he plays me all these that jump around like this not just a whole note like this you know and I've done several dates with Joe and he had never had enough music to finish the session I mean it's always 10 minutes short of music really y-yeah as far as he got I don't know I was glad he had 10 minutes they need to fill up with me so it's okay yeah he touched his glasses I need a tune okay said okay so I'll write itself Johansson in this call was 1.5 I did a song a song with the record with the chicory and 20 Williams and the stupid date Chick Corea reminded me of uh Tony smoked the way he counts sometimes some of the sulfur touch it called gjt look of a westerner kind of song but that's a nice monk kind of chords you know so I'm able to kind of amount it analyze what I think this person's strong points are but try to be careful not to ignore his weak points clinics the strong points even better what are your strong points what are your weak points just as historians oh yeah surely you know get to tell me Oh over lunch yeah okay sure do you ever get tired of people asking questions about Miles Davis I mean that was a five-year period I used to get tired into that yeah but uh you know Tony's passed away and her being Wayne or in LA California and I'm in New York and Alana does not always press in New York about miles his anniversary in his birthday and stuff like that so I'm the easiest got to reach as far as talking bottles that's like a period of time when they had the post office had a Miles Davis stamp yeah I have something is they dead that the first event was held in New York well I was in that band so of course I was one of the guys asked a participant in the ceremony you know so those events and those things happened enough times that they need that they would they depress I still interested in what he was like and then he somebody was there during those period of time to the answer so I've kind of accepted that yeah that's what I did and I try to slide in there at some point but I was working before I met him and they're just big Oh quiet spacing that they don't want to fill up with but yeah I mean I don't I enjoy working with guys before mousers will Randy Western arts farmer you know Betty Carter comic Ray I love times those people I had a great time with them you know and and that Miles Davis five-year span was another chapter in my musical growth I only want to ask one question I'll get going here set it up okay here it is okay some of your tunes you recorded with him lists him as a co composer who did what well you know we would all bring in our songs and he would work through them with us I mean some songs were more red than the others you know and we were all really just getting into Bob that writing composing for a specific sound in the band and we I think none of us had ever been playing that's not true for maybe Wayne and working for Blakey's man I think none of the really been put in the position to write songs with a certain sound specific sound in mind and when we get to these recording record dates we all bring our own music and the first thing we do is pass out the parts and we would see if they were correct or all done by hand and menschkeit was poor or the last were always in the wrong place and we're physically readable and then we were placed rumen and Myles and say well maybe we should move this bar over here or maybe it's not the best quarter voicing for this part of the melody right here oh that's just do this we won't play the bridge we just play the melody and we won't get a bridge to finish the song whatever his views of making this composition that was not his initially no a part of the band but a part of his compositional skills teachers all do that composition teachers the difference is that this is not recorded with them at crank claiming credit and I'm okay and I'm not bent out of shape because he shares I create on one of my songs he doesn't work okay well I went to school not pay the guy whatever credits cost the back in those days shall not a fix my composition for me he didn't pay trumpet either what God plays trumpet some okay you know I know when you were working in studios especially on jingle dates and the composer or the arranger would ask you to sort of create something on the spot when I don't understand at that point that the ramifications of doing that was extra money for me ya know jazz players do it they just do it because he do it they're not necessary folks Ananda how much longer the Bates are doing this you know and I don't regret not getting paid for those events for me is fun Australia because I like grated tape most of the time a treble or good piano player I mean guys who who I don't see only in those events you know so Mavis as much of a greeting as it was a one-hour session so well I don't regret not getting paid for those things I contribute it to those jingles and I began understand how they worked financially and how those guys were very eager to continue taking advantage of us which I'll out because I didn't know anything better well I've kind of learned since then speaking of getting paid did you always get your royalties yeah but but which amis I'm different now you talk about making the song special because you are there yeah and because you have added something that the composer didn't have to jingle to the producer and the company kind of control them likes he likes that so keep that in what opposed to getting credit for that but he didn't do that I did that so again he gets paid and gets a credit and I just had my friends come up that was okay too understood that those people I won't sell this honest but they were less willing to share that part of the royalties with someone in the musicians room who in fact made that comes in something that it wasn't intended to be okay I Linda listen we're talking now about sort of the intersection of music and the business of music yes absolutely and how do you reconcile this this world of art and the world of business well I think I began two years ago try to quantize my talent what does that mean how much am i worth how do you quantify how do you welcome and great tell me years ago figure out what you need to make in New York and mm you go on the road okay not bad idea I figured out how much it cost me if I stayed in New York to rent the Conair disaster you know stuff and good band wanna go on Russ okay this is what it cost me gone this fiscal cost you hire me oh man the last man able to ask the last man that I can't do this what that leads to though man is you could get a reputation of being arrogant and a wiseass but there are also leads to those guys not calling back I'm okay with that too hmm how do you how much is it worth to you to have to deal with Airlines and your instrument when I've been I've been through it like other bass players have right now the bass was called it bass d'Azur because we never know we're going to get when we get to the game oh you don't travel with your own instrument only when I'm driving to place like this Washington of Boston I say Baltimore I hadn't failed my own fiddle on on the on the tour from outside New York man and at least six years they made it so difficult so much much so much more difficult to try to fly with you on instrument you know they charge you overweight to charge you excess baggage the charge of oversize not long from at least eight years ago flow from Paris to Tel Aviv and Air France and it cost a thousand fifty dollars just for the bass and it got their day late and they were unwilling to talk to me to offer any kind of a new remuneration or any kind of apology and of course had to go back from Tel Aviv back to Paris we still cost out $50 and basically it's just bass players produces the concerts that the budget just can't afford that kind of travel expense right so right now I'm comfortable to to hopefully that the promoter as a base that's reasonable and my job is to make it not sound like a stranger to me you don't bring your strings with you you know I don't want to do that and then I don't have the for me for me to do that for me to to alter God's bass physically for one night for this selfish huh suppose he didn't want my strings on his bass means I gotta get there as a dig early I can't do that but but take off his strings put mine on dance the concert take mine off but his back on now there's so many things wrong with that concept telling deal with that elaborate but does the basical high enough because i stand up database as you go high enough to stand up are the four strings reasonably new and and what kind of pickup does he have but I'm not going to go then and do it as some bass players I recruited reported to do they go to the guys to the gig we did earlier and change the strings and move the sample that's that's a way above my pay grade and I would I would not dare to ask regarding to that 32 if you're working with the bass to shore can you always play it with yourself I haven't told I do it every night and that was amazed to hear that from people in the band said man how do you do that I'm saying what so we had different based tonight and yet differently last night and you had different bass on Monday and they all sound like yours in New York so where does the sound of Ron Carter's bass playing really come from is it your I asked I've been asking people who are much older and much more into the business of bassist physically than I am and they tell me that that just possibly cuz two reasons one because you hear a sound that you want to be responsible for your son that you want to be able to imitate or repeat or emulate whenever you pick up a bass whether it's yours or not you don't care about that you just want get this on you here out of this three foot by four foot six inch box with a stick inside and what makes it happen is your hands and I don't understand this part either but it's met my friends who are into the scientific mode much more than I am to tell me it's the combination of your hands your texture how are you how coordinates you are how hard you play the bass how do you don't play the bass if you look at that point of view it's those items that make you able to make the bass sound like yours even though it clearly is not yours is your sound conscious am i aware of it absolutely my job is to make it sound the same every night I decide if it's like the sound of your voice which you have some control over but not the tambour so much and not I mean how much of it is physical and how much of it is conscious it's physically in that I've found a set of strings that make the bass vibrate to its optimum I say and it's it's emotionally in another kind of sound I want this bass to risk to to be representative what sounds I hear full of each so much of the music that we love to hear you play has elements of improvisation and that requires being in the moment and I wonder can you prepare or how would you prepare to be in the moment well that's in the moment of success it's a pretty general phrase if you say how do you prepare to do a concert which is an in-the-moment event yes you know if it were put to me in that and in that format response would be if the day is an example of this event my response to you would be I miss you my business in condition to play before left home make sure I had my tools like it amp what if I need to make the best respond and make sure that got to the location of this concert early enough to make sure the sound and the building and this I could control I could control it and make sure I have the library as I'm the bandleader set in my head that I can make this presentation to the guy said this is the music for the night I'd make sure I was dressed now with trust all these are mr. Follin players till nominee free of everything else to step into the moment much of what you just described is external and I'm asking about the intern I'm telling you these events make it to make the internal take place whatever that is so you would just if if all these external things are taken care of you just go into the zone absolutely are on stage that's correct clean no longer worry about the set and not worry about the kind of time where I'm not worried about the band being in place I'm not worried about the building the sound of real not being okay no worry about the bass having issues this fall got a crack and I don't worry about those things anymore because I've always spent this preparation time till nominee this step from the lobby which is getting the bass to the gig getting the music and that to them to the to the auditorium and I walk on the stage and I'm in my own space just this air that's called the Ron Carter quartet or tonight the Ron Carter trio I'm looking to get in that air and all these things I do outside of the skin into the air allowed me to be in the air and that we're about anything else as a teacher and I know you've spent decades in the classroom but also private students when you're working with younger players can you teach them to swing I think you can show them the elements whether they can do it at neither strictly internal I think I mean I've been asked this question before and the more you try to explain it the more simple it sounds if anyone can do it it's kind of like describing how do you improvise once you explain the process you know the process makes it sound that gee anybody could do that what the results of anybody can do that are quite different those who can really do it and you can explain that part of improvising I mean there are Symphony players who really know their instrument inside now don't have a clue they don't have a clue how would you help them well firstly I have to if they have respect for the music and that's doing then how to do it I did just try to fool around for their neighbors did they want to be a hobby for between the twin movements from the Tchaikovsky forth or doing a John Cage's piece to God says improvise you know or do you really want to know do you would want to play that music the jazz improvise cards like I want play it or you just want to go out on weekends to Joe's Pub and McGillicuddy's saloon and just play with the guys because you want to see it your friends should take a look courses on the bass and just go home and you answer so on you that's fine with you you think nobody got hurt but you so there's a kind of a mindset to put them in a space to really understand what it takes to do what I do by the way if you ever feel like you want to just play with your friends and not a performance or recording or something formal just there are no fun there are my friends man all you throw every night even it I go school free because every night they showed me something that didn't learn that before and I expect today with Russell Russell Malone and Donna Vega I'll learn something that I didn't know it before I walked into disconsolate into this stage by the way what is it you like specifically about Donald and Russell that they trust me implicitly musically they don't question my choices and you trust them and they trust you absolutely I'm trusting that and I'm trusting them more as they understand what I'm trying to get them to do now that's what I said of alternate changes from 2/3 that's not normally there there's not a clue for them to play freely exclude and find out whether these changes go on by that just missed if I get them to continue to understand that that's part of my harmonic process and it's not a license to play freely they can't be surprised that what they come up with because then I have more things in the worry about some more court choices and sits into more alternate views are me over here that we can all have fun plan so once we started we get into that place every day but again that kind of report a is good word comes with just doing Austin every night you got played it can play often every night it's possible and how about in the trio setting you've been playing with Russell for a long time before Donald was mulgrew miller yeah how do things change when a new element of the trio comes into play well I think when the difference between down the mogul is download Mugler Sounders is more weighty it's a heavier sound not an eternal voice and like another player's name to to be a reason to understand Mugler sound specifically so I'll just say it Sounders is a much heavier sound physically than dollmaker and I expect or the more down comes tough with the library because there's some really hard parts to play which are the hardest parts all the piano parts everything everyone that's correct how much is actually written out and how much are lead sheets uh if we do a non concert program they probably six physical arrangements and maybe for lead sheets for just bleaches yeah because people assume people who come to the audit to the concert they just assumed that jazz musicians just sort of make it up as I go along I don't mind that view but you know it's unfortunate I guess or maybe it's fortunate being whose side you on that when you come when you come here again and there's a Schubert leader Germany the son by someone or someone singing some Italian areas I doubt that any audience really knows what they're saying in that native time okay the people expected in the same people on equal number of people to come to a jazz concert and ever have a really good clue what's going on stage musically expect to be able not to know that drum is playing three against four for just tunes in the key of F well this preamp Allah is watching this voice cause based with that perfect page to expect the audience to know this kind of inside music the classical orchestra man they don't classical audience they just start getting up in words an opera and opera houses I think that was okay getting athenians understanding language do you want them to be a part of the process and clearly that the people who are in the operatic scene thought that the more people can literally understand the words because they're going affirm like the time square things but they more be more part of the process of the Opera but you as itself has its own language yeah super hot with the audience's held to a higher higher standard knowing that language then the classical audience is I mean how many people do you know can go can go to a concert hall and here click it close their eyes I have the stage change in here for different orchestras playing Beethoven's fifth and be required to know where the conductor is how long the piece is with the size the orchestra and a view of those four different people by their names cutting each different orchestra but to come here Miles Davis quintet and they supposed to know her his last record I didn't want to know that they were supposed to know what kind of car miles has well they're supposed to know what kind of bass I have or they have to know why is this to informed what was the formulas tune I guess I'm saying into your the question is that the expectation level of audiences is so unfair and it's so different that is discouraging sometimes if I were in the audience and I would be all accountable for knowing stuff this nothing to do with me first of all but again once once get back to darling and mutt and Russell we started to play more often together and we're starting to understand each person's point of view and our three of us job is to understand it's time to go here it's time to go here it's time to go here and it was the ultimate say when that happens right now that's me you always decide when it's time right not because you pay the checks yeah well only because I'm gonna be putting that band - that's right yeah there was an assumption that on the basis was always the timekeeper but when it's somebody like Ron Carter they're just as much of a navigator as anyone I almost thought that a best blue had a real good skill level and a good harmonic concept if he had the desire he or she commits the band do anything that they want the band to do because there's that much in charge now though I felt like that and I've been in situations where I've had to actually prove I'm in charge okay give me no no no you sure yeah I'm sure over lunch over over as you pay for it okay okay just worth it I want this expensive yeah it'd be expensive kind of example here yeah I've had to actually do that you know and it gets musicians as people are starting to understand as well musicians bass players not to get behind the palm tree he is the palm tree history he's the light is the rain he's all that stuff man in this case the Check Writer yeah as well it doesn't hurt what inspires you outside of music I'm inspired by the possibility of looking for a young bassist who I can help get better that's what he's privately now I'm looking for students who I think I can help run instrument better give them a broader view of music with a capital M make them aware of of sharing music with other people making where I being available for projects that then that they would not normally consider interesting to them so when you give private lessons yes how much of it is focused on technique versus process it depends on how because the lesson goes and a student adds lesson yesterday and excuse me it occurred to me that since this Spurs are now not able to care that basis on most gigs but they should have a process that helps them learn what a strange bass feels like when they got to go play it for a game so rather than do a playing lesson I said okay put that bass away and we'll take mine out the closet your job to make this bass sound and feel like doors and 10 minutes what you gonna do to make that happen and once they showed me and themselves that they had no process you spent an extra five minutes giving them a process and what is your process for dealing with a strange bass ticking the scale for two scales or three scales and seeing if I can't play them on this bass in tune and then this process finding out what strings are uneven the sound or the strings are true or false with the curvature of the strings the strings curve to the bridge matching the curvature of the fingerboard hide the strings away from the fingerboard what kind of strings of these what kind of pickups do they have I mean pickups on the bridge does the bass get high enough me to stand up and play how come well the machines up here how they hooked up here is an extension up here what notes on the base don't sound okay what notes sound really great but note said no sound at all I have ten minutes make this decision for the concert starts so I'm telling these people okay that's what we're looking at now let's get this going so the lessons depends on what the needs are from I prepared the lesson for all of them they all have assignments to bring a complete but the lessons going toward a specific knowledge that they don't have like how to make the bass sound like yours in ten it in ten easy minutes you spent a spent time to do that those are things you don't teach you in conservatory well generally conservators have their their work is that the truck comes back to the bases in truck stick to the airport there's never been a consumer there's yeah you know they also don't teach musicians how to build a set of music how to plan a set well again you know class conservatories traditionally have never had that concern with the orchestras orchestras because they've got my guy who's doing like this this is worried our words can play this part right 1909 now but this is something you know a lot about having been a leader and sideman is what works when when you think about building a set well that's not my job this is to the planners story for the night and then give it to the guys so this is our story and one reasons I'd always be on course is that my story is finished I never leave anything for after the 88 you know once I get the three dots at the end of story man I'm kind of finished with my story and my not doing an Aquos been admitted it has been son stood as as what as not either way at the closing evening you know and then when I presented with that response for an encore I explained to him well you know the band and I we kind of ran out of words I had a story for my band they told the stories perfectly I'm not gonna go back with a paragraph again for you because you want another paragraph to busmalis this is my story ends right here there's three at the very bottom 888 I'm done can you say what your stories are about I can't but not right now and if I do it now you look for it tonight the concert I don't want you to I want I want you to come in there with a story you're here to take his mind don't you hear my story when it's over I'll be the same lunch in general are they represent are these stories representational or are they abstract will they're real they're real salutely absolutely they're your life there you give what goes on today absolutely does it do you pay attention to what people say or write about you and your music I mean pay attention to I read it yeah I mean does it ever bother you I have been you know the New York Times has a masthead every set all the news that's fit to print right and my band works in New York and we don't get any reviewed a newspaper I asked a manifesto candidate to express my political view because I'd never do this letter permission I want the audience to feel that the band feels like that Bethan is like it's been feels like that the banner tell him but right now I'm just looking for the bad I was make the notes and nuts unnoticed to the artist that I see it by the new york times a day which cost 250 now that the master is still the same all the news that's fit to print so now the New York Times whoever they are I felt that this music from this band these players is not fit to print and that objective that was not object I resent the possibility that the acknowledgement of our lack of importance so yeah I'm aware of it I don't agree with it but that's our point of view the problem with me that we not not agreeing with it's not that I don't agree with it he said I have no format to respond to this criticism either comes in the paper I have already left town because it's two days later or I don't have that kind of format or forum that allows me access to the same amount of media that this turbo review has negative review has about my music for me some kind of stuck with that inability to just tube to really lay out this reviewer a question what is based his dislike of me or my music is concerned with do you ever had the chance to talk to reviewers to critics oh one or two of them who I had to know personally I should know John Wilson very well was late writer the New York Times and I've had some constant contact with us but those guys they don't want to be didn't want to be to attend that kind of like a the guy who gives you the Michelin marcsa throw at the restaurants you want to come in and eat your foods free and I'll let you know that there might terrible a bunch of music but but the food cream Stinson that kind of the same way from me they want to come into the club free you want send the front a but they won't take up the best seat in the house you want to view the band made with a favorable view and in that you have no way of respond to them because you don't see them you don't know who they are but does this bother you were a shrug it off now well I let it go but I'm not gonna get private I want to I mean just the notion that guy would sneak into my was sneaking to a club where I'm playing expect to eat free and drink free and walk out with that awful review of the band which I can't comment to because I don't know he's there I don't know who he is it's kind of kind of like Tecna band of situation so yeah I resent that you know and I have been known to when I found one those guys who who who what I calls the snake in the grass who said something that I was uncomplimentary about me and all the music yeah I called his hand no what does that mean to call his hand how dare you what's that we'll start based on well having your time of that life why would you why would you feel free to come in and take up a bank customer seat - ready to review that's based on you being more important than a review your language skills are really not very good the editor who ever edited this paper then used words that you don't know where they belong in the sentence you know I'm pretty good at calling and you know but again you know if you spend time doing that you can't play music so I don't that's a priority I don't I don't get caught up in that you know I like to see what their likes I want to see what their writing skills are one of my views with my students and schools so that that's what jazz history classes after other class were there one on one bass lessons that someone has to write reduce of his music and the guys who are writing them now they can't write forever forever either pass away it lose interest the money's not big enough whatever cut whatever it and so I hope that some of the students who I've had contact with will at some point find that either they know no I want to play anymore or I've lost interest or if not it's not a emotional enough for them to get that thing turned into writing good journalism school man figure out the right I'm not sure jazz writers do that though journalism schools are not write write write write correctly you know they'll admit that did I discipline me but someone's gotta catalogue this music - that's got to be that the documentarian the historian of this music and that would be much more comfortable know that a person who cared about the musical enough to study in high school or college who played decently enough to understand some of the issues involved at nightclubs and terrible settings for people expect I love performance without this with these handicaps I've been much more pleased to know that this person with this kind of skill level and background would be the person who's writing a credible or not credible review based on these experiences head then whoever the critics are right these days so I know we're winding down here there's so much I want to ask you let's call this part one okay of our conversation but let me conclude this part by asking as a bassist as a composer as an educator but really as a man how do you measure success there are lot of ways to do that I think and the more diverse your life is the more avenues you have for kinda coming up with that kind of answer to that question one way I can measure my success is about numbers students I have who are playing a music not just playing bass I just plan jazz gigs but they're involved in the music industry everything from segments of Broadway shows to doing the open mic thing for their singles club sing all night to do a gig at a low coffee shop down down the street you know to a major name gig at a major nightclub in New York I mean these bass players man they're too playing the music and I like to think I'm a small part of showing them the instrument well enough that they could translate these physical skills we've worked on for all these hard lessons into a knowledge as planned wonderful bass but playing music that requires one little bit whatever kind of music that happens to be Ron Carter continued success - thank you driving tonight - eight o'clock thank you this has been a presentation of the Library of Congress visit us at loc.gov

Channel: Library of Congress

Views: 45,080

Rating: 4.9529409 out of 5

Keywords: Jazz, Ron Carter

Id: FKdP1ratv3M

Length: 71min 25sec (4285 seconds)

Published: Mon May 13 2013