National Book Festival Livestream - Day 1

WOMAN IN THE UNITED STATES. ♪ >> SPONSORED BY THE NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR THE ARTS AND THE NATIONAL ENDOWMEN OF THE HUMANITIES. >> NICK: HELLO, AND WELCOME TO THE 2021 LIBRARY OF CONGRESS NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL. MY NAME IS NICK MARTIN. I'M THE EDITOR OF HIGH CORNUSES INDIGENOUS AFFAIRS DEFANG AND A CONTRIBUTING EDITOR OF THE NEW REMEMBER AND MEMBER OF THE SUPO NI TRIBE. I'M HERE WITH AUTHORS KELLI JO FORD AND TONI JENSEN WHO HAVE TAKEN THEIR TIME TODAY TO SHARE WITH US AND BE IN CONVERSATION WITH US AND WE'RE GRATEFUL FOR THAT. TO LEARN MORE ABOUT OUR AUTHORS AND THEIR WOULD, PLEASE CHECK OUT LOC.GOV/BOOKFEST. BEFORE WE ALL BEGIN WE'RE GOING TO SAVE THE LAST 10MENTS OF THIS 30 MINUTE LIVE EVENT TO RESPOND TO AUDIENCE QUESTIONS SO YOU CAN START SUBMITTING THOSE NOW. AND WITHOUT ANY FURTHER ADIEU, WE WILL BEGIN OUR PANEL. KELLI JO, TONI, THANK YOU ALL FOR JUST INCREDIBLE AMOUNT AGAIN FOR BEING WITH US TODAY FOR KICKING OFF THIS FESTIVAL. YOU BOTH HAVE PRODUCED SUCH -- I'LL SPEAK PERSONALLY YOU BOTH PRODUCE SUCH INFORMATIVE WORKS IN TERMS OF JUST CREATING A SPACE NOT JUST FOR FELLOW WOMEN AUTHORS AND FELLOW INDIGENOUS AUTHORS BUT FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO ENTER THESE SPACES WHO WANT TO EXTEND CONVERSATIONS OF WHO WE ARE AS PEOPLE BEYOND JUST RUDIMENTARY EDUCATION. AND I THINK YOU BOTH HAVE DONE SO IN SUCH BEAUTIFUL -- SUCH BEAUTIFUL PROS IT IT IS AN HONOR TO BE HERE WITH THE TWO OF YOU SO THANK YOU. I'M JUST -- WE HAVE A LIMITED AMOUNT OF TIME TODAY. I HAVE SOME MEATY QUESTIONS I WANT TO JUMP INTO AND THEN WE HAVE SOME LIGHTER ONES THAT WE CAN SNEAK IN THERE AS WELL. KELLI JO, I'M GOING TO START WITH YOU TODAY. AND IN YOUR BOOK, CROOKED HALLELUJAH, THE PART THAT RESONATED WITH ME AND SOME OTHER INDIGENOUS AUTHORS, WRITERS, CITIZENS, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE FROM THE SOUTH, FROM THE SOUTHEAST AND JUST FROM THE SOUTH MORE GENERAL KELLI IT WAS REALLY SOMETHING TO SEE IT PUT ON THE PAGE. IN TERMS OF YOUR PRESENTATION OF IT WAS THE ROLE THAT CHRISTIANITY HAS PLAYED WITHIN OUR COMMUNITIES, YOU KNOW, ONLY POST COLONIZATION BUT IN PARTICULAR THE PAST 100, 200 YEARS, IN THE WAY THAT IT IS KIND OF SHIFTED AWAY FROM AND OUTRIGHT VEHICLE OF SIMILATED POLICY AND SOMETHING THAT OUR COMMUNITIES SPEAKING I KNOW MY HIGH PLAINS COMMUNITY CERTAINLY HAS CALVARY BAPTIST BUT THEY HAVE BECOME CORNERSTONES IN MANY OF OUR COMMUNITIES. NOT ALL OF THEM BUT MANY OF THEM. AND KIND OF UNWINDING FOR THIS VERY LIKE COMPLICATED WEB OF WHAT THAT RELATIONSHIP MEANS ESPECIALLY IN -- AS WE'RE KIND OF SEEING GENERATIONS RISE UP THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, ACTIVELY CHOOSING TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS AND, IN PARTICULAR, I'M THINKING ABOUT YOUR CHARACTER JUST OBVIOUSLY. AND THERE WAS IN THE STORY CONSIDER THE LILIES AND I DON'T KNOW. THERE IS JUST SOMETHING ABOUT THAT PIECE THAT REALLY I READ IT AFTER I -- WHEN I READ THE BOOK I READ IT SEVERAL TIMES BECAUSE I JUST WANTED TO SIT WITH IT. IT CULMINATES OR SOMEWHAT IN THIS SCENE WHERE MAMA REMOVES JUSTINE'S BANDAGES AND WE HAVE THIS BACK AND FORTH SHE'S JUST TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO HER THERE IS -- I CAN'T LOVE YOU TO HEAVEN, HONEY. AND JUSTINE AFTER SHE'S GOT HER PRAYER ON HER SHE SAID I DON'T NEED YOUR PRAYERS. I'M ONLY IN IT FOR THE ILLUSION AND THEN IT IS A VERY VIOLENT INTERACTION BETWEEN HER MOTHER AND JUSTINE AND -- BUT IT IS SOMETHING WHERE THIS SENSE OF OVERWHELMING LOVE -- THERE IS A DISTENSE I THINK WITHIN THIS RELATIONSHIP THAT WE HOLD WHERE -- WHAT YOU HAVE DONE IN THIS PERSON -- IN THIS PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP IS KIND OF DECAN CONSTRUCT THE WAY THAT VIOLENCE IS S AN INHERENT -- ALWAYS BEEN INHERENT TO THIS RELIGION AS IT RELATES TO INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES AND INDIGENOUS PEOPLES AND IN THIS WAY IT MANIFESTS IN A VERY PERSONAL WAY, IN A VERY INDIVIDUALISTIC WAY. I'M JUST CURIOUS IF YOU COULD TAKE A MOMENT AND TALK US THROUGH WHAT IT MEANT TO UNWIND ALL OF THAT PUBLICLY BECAUSE I KNOW THESE ARE CONVERSATIONS THAT MANY OF US HAVE, YOU KNOW, PRIVATELY BEHIND CLOSED DOORS WITH ONE ANOTHER BUT HAVE IT IN SUCH A PUBLIC FORUM. I JUST WANT TO ASK, ONE, WHAT DROVE YOU TO MAKE THAT DECISION AND, THEN, TWO, AS YOU WERE KIND OF DECONSTRUCTING THAT, HOW DID YOU APPROACH THAT VIOLENCE AND HOW DID YOU CHOOSE -- END UP CHOOSING THAT DIFFICULT PICKS OF IT? >> KELLI: SURE. THANK YOU. THANK YOU SO MUCH, NICK. I WANT TO SAY QUICKLY IT IS AN HONOR TO BE HERE WITH YOU AND TONI. SO THANK YOU FOR THAT REALLY THOUGHTFUL QUESTION. I HAVEN'T THOUGHT ABOUT THAT LINE IN QUITE SOME TIME. BUT IT IS SOMETHING THAT I APPROACH FIRST, I THINK, FROM THE PERSONAL SPACE AS A PERSON WHO GREW UP IN A CHEROKEE FAMILY THAT WAS A PART OF FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN CHURCH THAT SAW, YOU KNOW, BOTH THE HARSH REALITIES OF THAT FUNDAMENTALISM AND, THEN, ALSO, SORT OF THE LOVING PLACE THAT WAS OFFERED -- OFTEN COMING FROM IN FAMILY MEMBERS AND, SO, I THINK OF THE BOOK IS PART -- PART -- ONE OF THE BIGGEST THREADS OF THE BOOK TO ME I THINK THE BOOK IS ALMOST A RELIGIOUS HAUNTING FOR JUSTINE AND WHAT WE SEE IN THAT SCENE IS JUSTINE IN ACTIVE REBELLION, SHE'S FINALLY GOING TO STAND UP TO HER VERY RELIGIOUS MOTHER AND SHE DOES SO IN A WAY THAT'S -- WOULD BE PERCEIVED BY HER MOM AS JUST OUTRIGHT SAC-RELIGI OUS AND SHE'S MET WITH AGGRESSION AS WELL. IT IS INTERESTING WRITING A BOOK THAT COMES FROM A VERY PERSONAL PLACE AND THEN STEPPING BACK AND THINKING ABOUT THE BROADER IMPLICATIONS OF CHRISTIANITY AND OUR COMMUNITIES REALLY AFTER THE FACT. I WAS DEALING WITH A LOT OF PERSONAL EMOTIONS AS I CREED THESE CHARACTERS AND PUT THEM IN THESE -- CREED THESE CHARACTERS AND PUT THEM IN THESE SITUATIONS S AND THEN LATER TO HAVE BROADER IMPLICATIONS IS A LEARNING EXPERIENCE FOR ME AND THINKING ABOUT HOW PARTICULAR -- PARTICULARLY FOR SOUTHEASTERN TRIBES, YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANITY HAS BEEN A PART OF OUR STORY FOR A REALLY LONG TIME. AND IN DOING SO, IT IS AS YOU SAID KIND OF A PART OF THE LIKE AMERICAN COLONIAL PROJECT AND SIMULATION AND ALL THAT. BUT IT IS ALSO SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE ADAPTED AND HAVE, YOU KNOW, TURNED INTO CHURCH -- SOME CHRISTIAN CHURCHES ARE -- BECOME, YOU KNOW, CORNERSTONES OF OUR CULTURES AND OUR LANGUAGES AND I'M THINKING OF LIKE CHEROKEE HYMNS AND THINGS LIKE THAT AND OFTEN PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT BE CHEROKEE SPEAKERS MIGHT KNOW CHEROKEE HYMNS OR PARTS OF HYMNS SO IT IS REALLY THIS KIND OF, YOU KNOW, THERE IS JUST A LOT OF TENSION IN THAT DYNAMIC AND, YOU KNOW, IF I HEAR A CHEROKEE HYMN, YOU KNOW, IMMEDIATELY I'M JUST GOING TO START CRYING BECAUSE IT JUST CONNECTS IN THIS DEEPLY HOME AND PERSONAL AND FAMILY LEVEL. BUT, YEAH. THERE'S A LOT THERE TO THINK ABOUT. I FEEL LIKE I COULD TALK ABOUT THAT WITH YOU ALL DAY BUT I'M -- I WILL EASE BACK BECAUSE I WOULD LOVE TO KEEP CHATTING AND HEAR FROM TONI AS WELL. >> NICK: ABSOLUTELY. AND THAT'S JUST -- I JUST THINK , I THINK PART OF IT COMES FROM THIS -- FOR A LONG TIME THEY WERE A SAFE SPACE. YOU KNOW, IT WAS A LITERAL PHYSICAL STRUCTURE THAT YOU COULD GATHER IN TOGETHER AS NATIVE PEOPLE AND NOT FEEL PERSECUTED BECAUSE IT WAS AN ALLOWABLE ACTION. IT WAS AN ALLOWABLE ACT OF COMMUNITY AND WE OBVIOUSLY, LIKE ANYTHING ELSE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE DO, WE MAKE IT OUR OWN. WE PUT OUR OWN STAMP ON IT. THAT DOESN'T, I DON'T THINK, DISSOLVE OR RAISE ANY SORT OF LARGER IMPLICATIONS OF THAT DYNAMIC LIKE YOU SPOKE OF. BUT THERE'S A BEAUTY, I THINK, WITHIN KIND OF THE LARGER MESSINGNESS OR AT LEAST LIKE THE OPTIMIST TRIES IN MYSELF TRIES TO SAY THAT OVER THE CYNIC. TONI, I WANT TO BRING YOU INTO THIS CONVERSATION. I'M GOING TO PIVOT JUST BRIEFLY AWAY FROM THE LARGE TOPIC OF CHRISTIANITY BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WHEN I THINK ABOUT MY WORK AS A JOURNALIST, AND ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK ABOUT IN TERMS OF WHEN I GO TO PUT COFFEE TO A -- COPY TO A PAGE AND BRING A STORY TO LIFE IS THE AMOUNT OF EXPLAINING THAT I WANT TO DO AND THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THAT EXPLAINING VERSUS THE EDUCATIONAL IN TERMS OF SEEKING TO DERIVE AN EDUCATIONAL ASPECT OF THAT OPPOSED -- NOT ALWAYS OPPOSED BUT IN ADDITION TO TRYING TO DO SOMETHING CREATIVE WITH THE WORK OR USE THAT EXPLANATION IN A CREATIVE WAY THAT WON'T KIND OF, YOU KNOW, COME OFF AS NATIVE WIKI FOR NON NATIVE READERS. AND IN YOUR WORK I JUST FEEL LIKE IT WEAVES THAT IN SO DEFINITELY AND BEAUTIFULLY AND HAD I COULD PULL A MILLION EXAMPLES BUT THERE IS ONE IN CHAPTER 2 OF YOUR BOOK, CIRCAR. STAY IN THE CHAPTER SONG WITHOUT WORDS AND YOU'RE JUST WALKING US THROUGH SOME OF THE HISTORY OF METIS AND IT WORKS THEMATICALLY WITH THE REST OF THE WORK BECAUSE YOU CONSTANTLY REQUIRE YOUR READER TO PAUSE AND THINK ABOUT THE EDIMOPHOLOG Y AND WHAT THEY'RE READING AND THE CONNOTATIONS PRESENT THEMSELVES IN A WAY IN CONTEMPORARY TIMES AND I'M JUST CURIOUS WHEN YOU GO, WHEN YOU WENT TO WRITE CARRY AND ALSO FROM THE HILLTOPS, I JUST WANT -- I'M JUST CURIOUS AS YOU BAKE THIS IN. I HAVE TALKED WITH OTHER NATIVE AUTHORS ABOUT THIS, ABOUT WHAT OUR RESPONSIBILITY IS IN TERMS OF BRINGING READERS ALONG WHO MIGHT NOT GO VERSUS TRYING TO EXTEND AND FURTHER CONVERSATIONS WE'RE ALREADY HAVING WITHIN OUR OWN COMMUNITIES AND I JUST WANT TO FROM KIND OF A PROCEDURAL STANDPOINT, I JUST WANTED TO TAKE A STEP BACK AND JUST KIND OF LET YOU DO A KWIK SHOP CLASS ON THAT BECAUSE I JUST FEEL -- A QUICK SPIE SHOP CLASS ON THAT BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE YOU'RE NOT REPETITIVELY SAYING I'M LEARNING SOMETHING BUT I'M ENGAGING GO AHEAD AND READING WITH SOMETHING SPECIAL. HOW DO YOU KIND OF MANAGE THAT BALANCE OR HOW DO YOU MANAGE TO FIND THAT BALANCE OVER TIME? >> TONI: THANKS FOR THAT QUESTION. THAT'S REALLY A PLEASURE TO THINK MORE ABOUT THAT. YEAH. I WOULD SAY THAT IN CARRY, IN PARTICULAR, I WAS WORKING TOWARD TELLING STORIES OF GUN VIOLENCE FROM ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY, STORIES OF MY LIFE. BUT THEN, YES, AS YOU SAY, IT IS AN INDIGENOUS STORY, A METIS STORY. I'M ALSO THEN INTERESTED IN MAKING SURE THE AUDIENCE IS GROUNDED NOT JUST IN THE STORY AND THE MOMENT BUT, YOU KNOW, ALSO IN CULTURE. IN THE HISTORY. I FEEL LIKE THEY NEED TO KNOW MORE OF WHAT I KNOW IN ORDER FOR THEM TO BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE MOMENTS IN THE STORIES. FOR ME IT IS ABOUT STRIKING THE BALANCE THOUGH IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ELEMENTS OF CRAFT AND HOW YOU DO THAT. SO IT DOESN'T BECOME KIND OF AN EXTENDED HISTORY LESSON OR AN EXTENDED, YOU KNOW, APPEAL TO READERS WHO DON'T KNOW THE HISTORY. I THINK THAT FOR ME SOMETIMES I'M WRITING AND WEAVING AND DROPPING EASTER EGGS, LET'S SAY , INTO THE STORY FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY ON THE INSIDE OF IT. AND THEN OTHER TIMES I FEEL LIKE IT IS IMPORTANT TO GESTURE TO THE OUTSIDE, TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE IS GROUNDED BUT THEY KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON, TOO. SO IN THAT CHAPTER 2 THAT YOU MENTIONED, WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT THAT IN ONE OF MY CLASSES LAST WEEK. A STUDENT ASKED ME ABOUT SOME OF THOSE MOMENTS AND WE STARTED CALLING THEM DEAR WHITE READER MOMENTS OR DEAR NONNATIVE READ ER MOMENTS WHERE THERE IS A MOMENT I TALK ABOUT MY FATHER, FOR EXAMPLE, AND HOW HE'S DRINKING IN A BAR DURING HARD ECONOMIC TIMES WITH EVERYONE ELSE IN OUR SMALL TOWN AND I SAY, I STOP. I KIND OF DIRECTLY ADDRESS THE READER THERE AND SAY, DON'T MISTAKE ME HERE. EVERYONE ELSE ON THOSE BAR STOOLS, NONE OF THEM ARE NATIVE , RIGHT? THEY'RE ALL WHITE MEN. EVERYONE IN THE TOWN IS SUFFERING FROM THE SAME SOCIO-ECONOMIC PRESSURES. THEY WERE ALL THERE BECAUSE THEY HAD LOST THEIR JOBS. THEY WERE ALL THERE DRINKING TOGETHER. WE CAN'T READ THIS AS ANOTHER DRUNK INDIAN NARRATIVE. AND THAT FELT NECESSARY BECAUSE IT IS CHAPTER 2. AND I WANT TO BE SURE NO ONE MISUNDERSTANDS THAT MOMENT. SO, YEAH, I DON'T DO THAT OFTEN BUT WHEN I DO IN THE BOOK, I FEEL LIKE IT IS CRUCIAL. IT IS CRUCIAL FOR READERS NOT TO BE MISUNDERSTANDING THE MOMENT. SOMETIMES THAT IS NECESSARY. >> NICK: AND THAT -- I WANT TO BRING YOU BOTH INTO THIS NEXT QUESTION BECAUSE IT IS SOMETHING -- I THINK IT COMES DOWN TO THIS QUESTION THAT I'M ALWAYS JUST CURIOUS ABOUT WHEN I SPEAK WITH AUTHORS. OF REGARDLESS, YOU KNOW, NOT ALWAYS INDIGENOUS AUTHORS BUT OBVIOUSLY PARTICULARLY BUT I'M JUST CURIOUS ABOUT THIS LARGER QUESTION OF AUDIENCE. AND WHEN YOU'RE SITTING DOWN TO WRITE A BOOK BECAUSE SO OFTEN WE LIVE WITHIN THIS -- YOU KNOW , NOT TO GET TO WHATEVER ABOUT IT BUT WE LIVE IN CAPITALISTIC STRUCTURES THAT REQUIRE THIS BOOK HAS TO IDEA FOR IT TO BE -- THIS CAREER PATH TO BE A VIABLE ONE FOR US MUST BE ABLE TO APPEAL TO AN AUDIENCE LARGE ENOUGH TO PURCHASE IT. RIGHT? AND I DON'T THINK THAT THAT NECESSARILY ALWAYS MEANS EDITORIALLY SHAPING THE WORK TOWARDS THAT GOAL. BUT ALSO WHEN YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT THIS, CARVING OUT A SPACE FOR MORE INDIGENOUS WRITERS SO THEY DON'T HAVE TO DO AS MUCH EXPLAINING AS WHAT BOOKS IN THE PAST HAD TO DO. I'M CURIOUS, WHEN Y'ALL SIT DOWN AND START TO NOT EVEN FORMULATE WHAT A STRUCTURE IS BUT JUST THINK ABOUT WHAT DO I WANT THIS BOOK TO ACCOMPLISH, WHAT DO YOU WANT A READER TO TAKE AWAY FROM IT AS. DO YOU HAVE -- LIKE DO YOU PICTURE INDIGENOUS READERS HOLDING YOUR BACK AND DO YOU ALSO PICTURE NON-INDIGENOUS READERS IS IT A MIX AND WHAT IS THAT KIND OF VISION FOR Y'ALL? BECAUSE IT IS SOMETHING THAT I STRUGGLE WITH A LOT. I WOULD JUST LOVE TO HEAR HOW Y'ALL THINK ABOUT YOUR AUDIENCE FROM THAT KIND OF VERY INITIAL STANDPOINT. KELLI JO, YOU GO FIRST AND THEN TONI. >> KELLI JO: THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION. AS YOU ASKED IT I THOUGHT ABOUT THIS THING PEOPLE OFTEN SAY IT IS CLICHE. FIRST YOU WRITE THE BOOK THAT YOU NEED TO WRITE AND NEXT BOOK YOU WRITE WHAT YOU WANT TO WRITE. SOMETHING LIKE THAT. BUT I FEEL LIKE FOR THIS BOOK, WHICH IS MY DEBUT, I VERY MUCH WROTE THE BOOKS THAT I NEEDED TO WRITE. AND, SO, I WAS -- I WAS FOCUSED ON THESE CHARACTERS, STORY BY STORY, AND I -- WHEN I THOUGHT ABOUT AN AUDIENCE, HONESTLY, IT WAS REALLY AFTERWARD WHEN LIKE THE FEAR SET IN. [LAUGHTER] BUT WHEN I THOUGHT OF MY IDEAL, I WANT A WIDE READERSHIP. I WANT TO SALE BOOKS AND I WANT THIS TO BE A VIABLE CAREER PATH I CERTAINLY WASN'T THINKING THAT IT WAS, YOU KNOW. I JUST FELT LIKE I NEEDED TO WRITE THESE STORIES AND THEY NEEDED TO COME OUT IN SOME FORM OR FASHION. BUT AFTER THE FACT, WHEN THE BOOK WAS GOING AND THIS MOMENT OF OH, GOD, I'VE DONE IT, YOU KNOW. I THOUGHT ABOUT READERS BACK HOME. I THOUGHT ABOUT MY FAMILY. I THOUGHT ABOUT CHEROKEE PEOPLE IN OKLAHOMA. PEOPLE IN OKLAHOMA IN NORTH TEXAS AND RURAL SOUNDS -- RURAL TOWNS AND YOU WANTED THEM TO READ THE BOOK AND FEEL LIKE I HAD GOTTEN SOMETHING RIGHT. SOME PARTS OF THE CHARACTERS IN THE WORLD THEY LIVED IN I FELT LIKE I WAND THEM TO READ THE BACK AND HAVE SOME SENSE OF RECOGNITION. AND MAYBE ULTIMATELY REPRESENTATION AS WELL. BUT THOSE WERE THE THINGS THAT I THOUGHT. IT MIGHT BE DIFFERENT FOR A SECOND BOOK THOUGH. I SUSPECT IT WILL BE. >> NICK: YEAH. >> TONI: YEAH. I WOULD AGREE WITH A LOT OF WHAT KELLI JO IS SAYING SURPRISINGLY. I ALSO FEEL LIKE I WAS THINKING FIRST AND FOREMOST OF FAMILY AND MY BOOK TAKES PLACE ALL OVER THE COUNTRY. ALL THE DIFFERENT PLACES THAT I HAVE LIVED. SO I WAS THINKING OF ALL THE DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES, NOT JUST METIS COMMUNITY, ALBERTA METIS SPECIFICALLY BUT ALL THE COMMUNITIES I LIVED IN ALL OVER THES UNITED STATES AND I'M OWE REPRESENTING THEM. I'M TALKING ABOUT NATIVE HISTORY AND NATIVE LIVED PRESENTS IN THOSE REGIONS, RIGHT? I'M TELLING STORIES OF BAD THINGS THAT HAPPENED TO PEOPLE THERE AND SOMETIMES HAPPY THINGS, TOO. SO AM I GETTING THAT RIGHT? I WAS THINKING ESSAY BY ESSAY, CHAPTER-BY-CHAPTER REALLY OF THE PEOPLE THAT-- WHO I AM WRITING ABOUT AND HOW I'M RESPONSIBLE TO THEM AND THEN I GUESS, YES, SORT OF LIKE KELLI JO AT THE HAD VERY END IN THE EDITORIAL PROCESS WHICH WAS, YOU KNOW, I WAS ADDING IN PARTS ABOUT GEORGE FLOYD IN MY BOOK IN JUNE AND THE BOOK CAME OUT IN SEPTEMBER. SO, YOU KNOW, VERY THOUGHT OUT I THOUGHT, OH, WHAT ABOUT OTHER READERS? BUT REALLY I WAS WRITING TO AND FOR MY OWN COMMUNITIES, ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY, YOU KNOW, PLACES THAT I HAVE LIVED AND WORKED. I WAS THINKING OF THOSE PEOPLE FIRST. AND I THINK THAT WHO YOU'RE WRITING TO AND WHO YOU'RE WRITING FOR, THOSE CAN BE SEPARATE QUESTIONS. SO I WAS WRITING TO THOSE PEOPLE AND I GUESS UNTIL THE VERY END I DIDN'T ALLOW MYSELF VERY MUCH TO THINK ABOUT WHO I WAS WRITING FOR. BUT TALKING ABOUT MARKETING AND ALL OF THAT, AT THE END OF EDITORIAL, I THOUGHT, OH, NOW I HAVE TO THINK ABOUT ALSO WHO THIS IS FOR NOT JUST WHO THIS IS TO. >> NICK: I THINK THAT IS A BEAUTIFUL KIND OF DELINEATION TO MAKE VERSUS TWO VERSUS FOUR. THAT IS REALLY -- THAT IS IMPORTANT. AND I ALMOST -- THAT IS GREAT BECAUSE I WISH I WOULD HAVE FIRMED THE QUESTION THAT WAY BUT I'M GLAD YOU MADE ME THINK ABOUT IT THAT WAY. THANK YOU, TONI. WE'RE ALMOST AT THE 10 MINUTE MARK. I ONLY SEE ONE QUESTION IN THE Q&A CUE AT THE MOMENT. SO I HAVE ONE MORE KIND OF QUESTION THAT I WANT TO -- I WANT TO HIT ON FROM -- FOR BOTH OF YOU. AND IT'S KIND OF A MENTAL QUESTION. WE'RE GOING TO CONSIDER OURSELVES A LITTLE BIT HERE. I'M CURIOUS TO KNOW THE FEELING S YOU TWO HAVE. BECAUSE PARTICULARLY ALL -- YOU BOTH PUBLISH BOOKS. YOU HAVE GONE ON -- DONE BOOK TOURS. YOU HAVE GIVEN TALKS. YOU HAD TO DO EVENTS LIKE THIS BEFORE. AND I'M JUST CURIOUS TO KNOW THE FEELINGS YOU TWO HAVE REGARDING WHAT I SOMETIMES SEE TO BE LIKE -- IT CAN BE TIMES LIKE INCONGRUENT BOXING OF INDIGENOUS ARTISTS FOR THE SAKE OF THEM BEING AINDUG US IN ARTISTS TOGETHER. THIS CAN BE AS SIMPLE AS NATIVE -- A SECTION WHERE ALL THE NATIVE BOOKS ARE KEPT IN A BOOK STORE. IT CAN BE SOMETHING LIKE A PANEL LIKE THIS WHERE WE ALL GET TOGETHER AND HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT THE WORKS THEMSELVES. BUT I'M JUST CURIOUS THINKING MORE BROADLY OF IT BECAUSE OFTENTIMES, AS A READER OR JOURNALIST, I DON'T WANT MY WORK TO BE IN CONVERSATION JUST WITH OTHER INDIGENOUS -- I DO WANT IT TO BE IN CONDITION WITH OTHER NATIVE JOURNAL LISTS AND WRITERS BUT IN CONDITION DON'T WANT IT TO BE IN CONVERSATION WITH A BROADER FIELD OF JOURNALISTISM, WITH A BROADER FIELD OF LITERATURE. I JUST WANTED TO OPEN THAT UP. JUST THINKING ABOUT BECAUSE I THINK WE HAVE ALREADY ESTABLISHED THROUGH ACTION WHAT THE USEFULNESS OF -- IS OF HAVING HAVING US BEING ABLE TO COME TOGETHER AND TO EXTEND THE CONVERSATION BEYOND SOME OF THE MORE RUDIMENTARY Q&AS OR QUESTIONS YOU MIGHT FIELD ELSEWHERE. BUT, YEAH, I DON'T KNOW. THE NATIVE WORLD IS ADMITTEDLY SMALL ONE. I DO RECOGNIZE SOMETIMES THIS IS JUST OUT OF NECESSITY. BUT I'M JUST AS WE CAN KIND OF CONSIDER OUR PLACE IN THE NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL IN THE LITERARY INDUSTRY AND WE WANT TO CREATE SPACE FOR MORE INDIGENOUS WRITERS COMING UP BEHIND US, BEHIND Y'ALL. I WANT TO JUST KNOW, LIKE, HOW DO WE KIND OF NAVIGATE THIS SPACE WHILE WHERE WE ARE GROUPED TOGETHER BECAUSE OF WHO WE ARE EVEN THOUGH ALL -- NOT ALL THE TIMES. IN THIS INSTANCE I THINK SO BUT NOT ALL THE TIMES OUR WORKS ARE ALWAYS -- YOU KNOW, ONE-TO-ONE MATCHES OR ARE NOT NECESSARILY IN CONVERSATION WITH ONE ANOTHER. SO I DON'T KNOW. I JUST WANTED TO LEAVE THAT AND TONI I'LL LET YOU GO FIRST FOR THAT ONE. >> TONI: YEAH. I THINK ABOUT THIS A LOT SINCE I TEACH STUDENT AMERICAN INDIAN ARTS AND I ALSO TEACH AT THE UNIVERSITY OF ARKANSAS WHERE THAT IS VERY FAR FROM THE TERRITORIES I'M FROM. SO IT FEELS REALLY NATURAL FOR ME TO BE IN CONVERSATION WITH SOUTHERN NATIVE WRITERS BECAUSE I TEACH AND WRITE FROM THE SOUTH ON THEIR LAND ON THEIR TERRITORIES, RIGHT, AND SO IT FEELS GOOD TO BE IN THESE CONVERSATIONS BUT NO, THAT IS NOT PROPERLY WHERE I'M FROM. DESPITE HOW I HAVE ADAPTED A SLIGHT SOUTHERN ACCIDENT. STEVEN GRAM JONES WAS MY ATEACH ER AT TEXAS TECH. HE'S A WRITER I ADMIRE A LOT AND I ADMIRE BLACK FEET WRITER AND STEVEN HAS A GREAT TALK AND I THINK IT WAS MADE INTO AN ESSAY, TOO, ABOUT HOW A YOUNG LETTER TO AN INDIGENOUS WRITERS AND IN IT HE TALKS ABOUT WANTING OUR WORK TO BE ON ALL THE SHELVES. THAT IS HOW I LIKE TO THINK OF IT, TOO. THAT IS HOW I LIKE TO APPROACH IT JUST THAT WE COULD HAVE OUR WORK ON ANY SHELF WE WANTED IT TO BE ON. THE HORROR SHELF. THE POET SHELF. MYSTERY SHELF. IT SHOULDN'T BE ONE SHELF FOR NATIVE LITERATURE. WE SHOULD HAVE OUR CONVERSATIONS AMONGST OURSELVES AND ALSO OUR WORK SHOULD BE ON THE SHELVES. I GUESS THAT IS WHERE I SEE THINGS HEADING IDEALLY AND WHERE -- HOW I LIKE TO APPROACH IT. >> KELLI JO: I AGREE. I MEAN, WITH EVERYTHING TONI SAID. LIKE FOR ME, PARTICULARLY AS AN AT LARGE CITIZEN OF THE CHEROKEE NATION LIKE WHEN I AM GROUPED WITH NATIVE WRITERS IT IS A VERY HONOR. I WANT THAT. BUT ABSOLUTELY. I ALSO WANT MY WORK TO BE IN CONVERSATION WITH, YOU KNOW, LITERATURE AT LARGE, TOO. I DON'T REALLY THINK THAT I HAVE ANYTHING TO ADD OTHER THAN THAT. LIKE IT IS AN HONOR JUST TO BE GROUPED, YOU KNOW, WITH NATIVE WRITERS AND LET'S KEEP GOING. WE HAVE A LOT TO OFFER AND THERE IS SO MANY NATIVE WRITERS RIGHT NOW WHO ARE JUST WRITING POWERFUL WORKS OF LITERATURE ACROSS THE GENRES AND I -- I JUST HOPE THAT -- I HOPE THAT WE'RE ALL DOING WHAT WE CAN TO MAKE SPACES PARTICULARLY PEOPLE IN PUBLISHING AND READERS, I FEEL LIKE THE WORLD IS READY AND CERTAINLY THERE ARE INDIGENOUS WRITERS WHO ARE ALREADY DOING IT. >> NICK: YEAH. ABSOLUTELY. ALL RIGHT. SO LET'S MOVE OVER TO WE HAVE GOT SOME MORE QUESTIONS IN THE Q&A CHAT NOW. WE'RE GOING TO MOVE OVER TO READER QUESTIONS OR VIEWER QUESTIONS. THE TOP ONE RIGHT NOW IS FROM KEVIN. IT IS SIMPLE SO WE COULD DO THIS ONE PRETTY QUICKLY. IF YOU COULD TELL YOUR YOUNGER WRITING SELF ANYTHING, WHAT WOULD IT BE? >> I'LL GO. I WOULD JUST TELL HER IT WILL BE OKAY. IT TOOK ME A REALLY LONG TIME TO WRITE MY BOOK AND -- FOR A LOT OF REASONS THAT WERE ABSOLUTELY VALID MOST OF THE TIME. SO I WOULD TELL HER, IT IS OKAY LIKE TAKE THE TIME THAT YOU NEED TO DO THIS WORK. IT'S DIGGING DEEP AND IT IS IMPORTANT FOR YOU AS A PERSON AND A WRITER. HANG IN THERE. STICK WITH IT. DON'T WORRY SO MUCH ABOUT HOW LONG IT TAKES. KEEP GOING. >> TONI: YEAH, I WOULD GIVE MY YOUNGER SELF TO PUT EVERYTHING DOWN AND DON'T WORRY ABOUT PUBLISHING IT. SOME THINGS ARE NECESSARY TO WRITE BUT NOT NECESSARY TO PUBLISH AND YOU WILL KNOW AND TRUST WHETHER EVERYTHING YOU WRITE SHOULD BE PUBLISHED OR SOME OF IT YOU KEEP FOR YOURSELF. >> NICK: I LOVE THAT. THAT'S A GREAT REMINDER FOR EVERY WRITER EVERYWHERE. SCOTT WEAVER HAD A QUESTION WHICH IS, I BELIEVE BOTH OF YOU HAVE TAUGHT AT COMMUNITY COLLEGES AND I WONDER HOW THAT TYPE OF TEACHING EXPERIENCE INFORMS HOW YOU THINK ABOUT YOUR WRITING? START WITH TONI THIS TIME. >> TONI: YEAH. I STARTED MY TEACHING CAREER AT MOHAB COMMUNITY COLLEGE AND STILL ONE OF THE FAVORITES OF ALL THE PLACES I TAUGHT AND IT IS A LONG LIST. MY STUDENTS, I WAS 25 YEARS OLD AND MY STUDENTS WERE MOSTLY WOMEN WHO WERE COMING BACK TO SCHOOL 30S, UP THROUGH 50S. SO I WOULD SAY WHAT I TAKE WITH ME FROM THOSE DAYS MOST IS TO THINK HOW BRAVE THEY WERE TO BE SHOWING UP IN AN EDUCATIONAL SPACE WHEN THEY HAD BEEN OUT OF SCHOOL FOR SO LONG AND HOW THEY WERE REINVENTING THEMSELVES. WE GET TO DO THAT ALL THE TIME AS WRITERS. THEY SET AN EXAMPLE FOR ME EARLY THAT I STILL TRY TO FOLLOW. >> KELLI JO: MY FIRST JOB TEACHING WAS ALSO AT A COMMUNITY COLLEGE AT COLLEGE OF WESTERN IDAHO IN BOISE. AND I TAUGHT DEVELOPMENTAL ENGLISH AND I ALSO HAD A LOT OF STUDENTS WHO WERE RETURNING TO SCHOOL AFTER MANY YEARS AND WHO WORKED SO HARD BUT DIDN'T NECESSARILY COME INTO THE CLASSROOM WITH THE CONFIDENCE THAT THEY COULD SUCCEED. AND SO I THINK WHAT I TAKE AWAY FROM THAT NOW IS INSPIRATION AND I -- I THINK THAT IT INFORM S MY TEACHING IN A LOT OF WAYS. ONE THING I REMEMBER FROM THAT CLASS IS THE COMMUNITY AND HOW IN THAT CLASSROOM THE PEOPLE SUPPORTED ONE -- ONE ANOTHER AND BASICALLY WE JUST AGREED THAT WE WERE GOING TO WORK HARD NO MATTER WHERE WE WERE STARTING FROM. AND, SO, I TAKE GREAT HEART IN THAT AND I FEEL LIKE THAT IS THE KIND OF COMMUNITY I -- I ASPIRE TO HELP FACILITATE IN WRITING WORKSHOPS AS WELL. AT ANY LEVEL. >> NICK: ABSOLUTELY. WE'VE GOT ABOUT TWO-AND-A-HALF MINUTES LEFT. WE'LL MOVE QUICKLY HERE. I WANT TO GET THIS ONE IN FROM RUBY HENSON MURRAY WHICH IS, HOW HAVE YOUR COMMUNITIES RESPONDED TO THESE TWO WONDER FUL BOOKS BECAUSE I THINK THAT IS IMPORTANT. WE KIND OF TALKED ABOUT WHO THEY WERE FOR EARLIER BUT THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION IN TERMS OF ACTUAL RESPONSE. KELLI, WOULD YOU LIKE TO START? >> KELLI JO: SURE. I'VE HAD A LOT OF SUPPORT FROM BACK HOME. SO I JUST HAVE BEEN REALLY GRATEFUL THAT THE PEOPLE WERE OPEN TO THE BOOK AND I GOT A LOT OF SUPPORT FROM ALL KINDS OF COMMUNITIES AS WELL. CHEROKEE PEOPLE FROM OKAY. PEOPLE FROM -- FROM OKLAHOMA, PEOPLE FROM PLAINS TRIBES WHO GREW UP IN FUNDAMENTALIST CHURCHES OF SOME KIND JUST -- I JUST FEEL LIKE I HAVE JUST BEEN REALLY, REALLY SUPPORTED WHOLE HARDLY AND SO I'M -- I FEEL REALLY GRATEFUL FOR THAT. SEEMS LIKE THERE IS A LOT OF KINDNESS AND LOVE AND LIFTING UP GOING ON FOR ME. >> TONI: YEAH, I HAD A SIMILAR EXPERIENCE. I'VE HAD MANY INDIGENOUS WOMEN, NATIVE WOMEN FROM ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA REACHING OUT SHARING PERSONAL STORIES WITH ME THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA, THROUGH MY WEBSITE THROUGH E-MAIL. SOME MEN, TOO, TALKING ABOUT HOW THEY RECOMMENDED MY WORKBOOK TO THEIR AUNTIE OR COUSIN OR THEIR SITTERS AND SO I THINK THAT HAS BEEN THE BIGGEST PLEASURE AND SURPRISE FOR ME IS HOW MAYBE NATIVE WOMEN, I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO BE PUT IN CONTACT WITH WHO HAVE BEEN -- HAD SIMILAR EXPERIENCES AND HAVE LIKED SEEING EVEN THOUGH I THINK IT IS HARD HAVE LIKED SEEING, YOU KNOW, THOSE EXPERIENCES RENDERED ON THE PAGE AND THAT SOMEONE ELSE WENT THROUGH IT, RIGHT? I THINK IT IS ALWAYS GOOD TO SEE THAT IN LITERATURE THAT SOMEONE ELSE WENT THROUGH IT AND WAS ABLE TO WRITE ABOUT IT. >> NICK: ABSOLUTELY. WELL, WE ARE THEY 30, 28, TWENTY SEVEN SECOND MARK. I THINK WE WILL WRAP IT UP HERE I JUST WANT TO -- I WANT TO SAY THANK YOU TO BOTH OF YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY. THANK YOU TO THE NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL FOR HAVING US, ALL OF US FOR THIS CONVERSATION. IT HAS BEEN SO WONDERFUL. I REALLY APPRECIATE ALL THE TIME AND EFFORT FROM THE AUDIENCE FOR THE QUESTIONS. AGAIN, JUST REALLY APPRECIATE EVERYBODY'S TIME AND I HOPE EVERYBODY HAS A WONDERFUL REST OF THE FESTIVAL. >> SPONSORED BY THE JAMES MADISON COUNCIL. >> HELLO AND WELCOME TO THE 2021 LOY BEAR OF CONGRESS NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL. I'M SARAH FRIER, I'M A REPORTER AT THE "WASHINGTON POST" AND I'M HERE WITH PATRICK RADDEN KEEFE AND ERIC EYRE. TO TALK ABOUT THEIR BOOKS ON THE OPIOID WHICH HAS CLAIMED THE LIVES OF MORE THAN 500,000 PEOPLE NATIONWIDE. THE WORST DRUG OVERDOSE EPIDEMIC IN AMERICAN HISTORY. I HAVE SPENT THE LAST THREE YEARS REPORTING FOR THE "WASHINGTON POST" INVESTIGATIVE TEAM ABOUT THE OPIOID CRISIS AND I'M ACTUALLY ALREADY WRITING A BACK MYSELF ON THE EPIDEMIC WITH MY COLLEAGUE, SCOTT HEIMAN. I'M THRILLED TO INTRODUCE YOU TO TWO BOOKS AND TWO, WOULD THAT I ADMIRE. THE SECRET HISTORY OF THE SECULAR DYNASTY AND ERIC EYRE WHO WON A PULITZER PRIZE FOR HIS REPORTING ON OPIOID AT THE CHARLESTON GAZETTE AND IS THE AUTHOR OF DEATH IN MUD LICK. A FIGHT AGAINST THE DRUG COMPANIES THAT DEVELOPED THE OPIOID EPIDEMIC. PATRICK, LET ME START WITH YOU. YOUR DEVASTATING ABSOLUTELY DEVASTATING PORTRAIT OF THE SACKLER FAMILY AND THEIR ROLE IN THE OPIOID EPIDEMIC. CAN YOU GIVE US A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF EMPIRE OF PAIN AND TELL US WHAT LEAD TO WRITE THIS BOOK >> ERIC: ABSOLUTELY >> PATRICK: I'M HONORED TO SHARE A PANEL WITH TWO OF YOU WHO HAVE WRITTEN AMAZING STUFF ON THIS ISSUE. THE OPIOID CRISIS IS SO BIG AS AN ISSUE THAT I FEEL AS THOUGH DIFFERENT PARTS OF IT HAVE BEEN WORKED OVER BY PEOPLE IN DIFFERENT WAYS. GREAT BOOKS ON THE OPIOID CRISIS. I HAPPEN TO LOOK PRETTY CLOSELY AT THE PERPETRATORS. AND SO I WAS VERY INTERESTED IN THIS FAMILY, THE SACKLER FAMILY WHO OWNED PERDUE DUE PHARMA, PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANY THAT PRODUCES OXYCONTIN THE TIP OF THE SPEAR OF THE CRISIS THE DRUG THAT STARTED US ON THE ROAD TO WHERE WE ARE TODAY. AND SO IT IS NOT AN OPIOID CRISIS BOOK PER SE. SORT OF A BROAD LOOK AT THREE GENERATIONS OF THIS FAMILY. MORE OF A FAMILY SAGA. I THINK THERE IS ALL SORTS OF THINGS IN THE HISTORY OF THIS FAMILY THAT HELP EXPLAIN THE WAYS IN WHICH OUR TREATMENT OF PAIN AND OUR USE OF MEDICINE HAS BEEN KIND OF HIJACKED BY COMMERCE AND BY BIG PHARMA. SO IN THAT SENSE IT IS AN ORIGIN STORY FOR THE OPIOID CRISIS, TOLD THROUGH THE LENS OF THIS ONE PARTICULAR FAMILY. >> SARAH: ERIC, CAN YOU TELL US THE STORY OF DEATH IN MUD LICK, WHAT LEAD TO WRITE THIS ACCOUNT OF DEBBIE PREECE FIGHT FOR JUSTICE. PATRICK'S BOOK I THINK FOCUSES A LOT ON THE CAUSES. AND YOUR BOOK, YOU KNOW, SEEMS TO DESCRIBE THE AFFECT. TELL US ABOUT DEATH IN MUD LICK >> ERIC: SURE, SARAH. I'M ALSO HONORED TO BE HERE WITH YOU, TOO. SUCH -- SARAH HAS DONE INCREDIBLE WORK IN THE EPIDEMIC AND I HAVE A CONFESSION TO MAKE WHEN I SAW PATRICK'S BOOK WAS COMING OUT I THOUGHT I KNEW EVERYTHING ABOUT THE OPIOID EPIDEMIC, I WAS TOTALLY WRONG. HE HAS GOT REVELATION AFTER REVELATION. YOU COULD JUST PRETTY MUCH PLUCK ANY PAGE OUT AND YOU'LL BOW LIKE OH MY GOD. OR YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME JUST INCREDIBLE, INCREDIBLE WORK. BASICALLY IS I DESCRIBE MY BOOK AS A DAVID AND GO LIST -- DAVID -- GOLIATH TALE. A SMALL GROUP APPALACHIANS GET TOGETHER AND TAKE OVER THE OPIOID INDUSTRY. IT STARTS OUT IN THE COAL FIELDS OF WEST VIRGINIA WHERE A COAL MINOR DIDN'T I DIES OF AN OXYCONTIN OVERDOSE NAMED BULL PRIEST IN A HOLLAR NAMED MUD LICK. WHICH EXPLAINS THE TITLE. THEN HIS SISTER, DEBBIE PREECE, SHE'S REALLY FIRED AND LIKE THIS ERIC EYRE ERIN BROCKOVICH AND HE'S NOT GOING TO LET HER BROTHER BECOME ANOTHER STATISTIC. SHE'S GOING TO AVENGE HIS DEATH AND SHE CONNECTS WITH A LAWYER BY THE NAME OF JIM KEGGLE WHOM SHE HAD KNOWN GOING BACK 30 YEARS WHEN SHE WAS ACTUALLY ARRESTED ON DRUG CONSPIRACY CHARGES. THE TWO OF THEM GET TOGETHER AND THEY FIRST FILE SUIT AGAINST THE DOCTOR THAT PRESCRIBED THE OXYCONTIN, THE BULL PRIEST, AND THEN THEY FILE AGAINST A PHARMACY, INFAMOUS PHARMACY AND THEN THEY GO TO OTHER PHARMACIES BUT IT DOESN'T STOP THERE. DEBBIE HAS THIS QUEST -- ASKED HIM THE QUESTION, WHERE ARE ALL THESE PAINKILLERS COMING FROM, YOU KNOW? SHE DIDN'T KNOW IF THEY WERE COMING FROM UPS OR FEDEX PRESS OR THE UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE. WHO NOW. SHE ACTUALLY TOOK IT UPON HERSELF TO GET IN A CAR AND FOLLOW SOME OF THE DELIVERY TRUCKS THAT CAME AROUND THE COUNTY AND SHE HAD THE LICENSE PLATE TRACED TO A COMPANY CALLED CARDINAL HEALTH WHICH TURNS OUT IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST OPIOID DISTRIBUTERS IN THE COUNTRY. AND FROM THERE, THEY GO -- AGAIN THEY GO UP AND UP THE CHAIN. THE SUPPLY CHAIN. I ALSO -- THERE IS KIND OF A SUB-PLOT, TOO, OF THE POWER OF LOCAL NEWS REPORTING. IN PARTICULAR, WATCH DOG REPORTING. MY STORY STARTED WITH A TIP AT THE NEWSPAPER ABOUT THE NEW ATTORNEY GENERAL THAT WAS ELECTED AND HE HAD STRONG TIES TO THE PHARMACEUTICAL DISTRIBUTERS. AND HE INHERITED A LAWSUIT THAT WAS FILED BY HIS PREDECESSOR. ANYWAY, TO SUM IT UP, IT TOOK SEVERAL MONTHS, IF NOT A YEAR, TO GET SOME DOCUMENTS RELATED TO THE TOTAL NUMBER OF SHIPMENTS OF TOTAL OPIOIDS TO ALL THE COUNTIES IN WEST VIRGINIA AND WHAT WE SAW WAS SHOCKING. IT WAS UPWARDS OF 78 MILLION PAIN PILLS ESSENTIALLY THE DRUG DISTRIBUTERS HAD FLOODED THE STATE WITH PAINKILLERS. AND THESE WERE OXYCONTIN AND HYDROCODONE. AND IF YOU TALK THOSE DRUGS IN LARGE AMOUNTS, YOU LITERALLY START BREATHING AND YOU DIE. THAT IS WHAT WAS HAPPENING ALL OVER WEST VIRGINIA. WE HAD REACH REACHED ALL-TIME HIGHS IN OVERDOSE DEATHS AND THE PROBLEM DIDN'T SEEM TO BE GETTING ANY BETTER. AND ALSO THE DATA WE SAW WAS MOST OF THE SHIPMENTS WENT TO MOM AND POP DRUGSTORES. THEY -- THEY WERE INDEPENDENTLY OWNED. AND IN ONE CASE WE HAD SUCH A RATION OF A TOWN IN KERMIT, WEST VALUE, A POPULATION OF 300 AND ONE PRESCRIPTION SENT TO THE LONE PHARMACY IN TOWN. THAT IS 12 MILLION OXYCONTIN AND OXYCO DOWN OVER THE COURSE OF THREE YEARS IN A TOWN OF 400 PEOPLE. THE STORIES JUST STARTED TO SNOWBALL. AND EVENTUALLY WINDS ITS WAY ALL THE WAY UP TO WHERE THE CEO S ARE IN CAPITOL HILL AND GIANT DISTRIBUTERS FACE THEIR DAY OF RECKONING. >> SARAH: UNBELIEVABLE NUMBERS , ERIC. I JUST WANTED TO SAY, I FORGOT TO SAY THAT FOR ALL OF THOSE -- FOR ALL YOU WHO ARE WATCHING THIS INTERVIEW, YOU CAN SUBMIT QUESTIONS AND THE LAST 10 MINUTES I'LL TAKE YOUR QUESTIONS TO PATRICK AND ERIC. THE THEME OF THE NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL THIS YEAR IS OPEN A BOOK. OPEN THE WORLD. SO IN KEEPING WITH THAT THEME, PATRICK, HOW HAVE BOOKS OPENED THE WORLD FOR YOU? >> PATRICK: IT'S FUNNY, YOU KNOW, I KNEW THIS WAS THE THEME AND I THOUGHT ABOUT TALKING ABOUT BOOKS THAT MEANT A LOT TO ME WHEN I WAS YOUNG. BUT WHAT I WANT TO SAY IS ACTUALLY SOMETHING SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT WHICH IS THAT I SPENT SO MUCH OF MY TIME ON A PHONE AND ON-SCREENS AND INCREASINGLY WHAT BOOKS ARE TO ME IS THIS TIME WHEN I STEP AWAY FROM THAT IT MIGHT SEEM PERVERSE BECAUSE YOU'RE KIND OF UNPLUGGING AND SOME WAYS YOU'RE SORT OF REMOVING YOURSELF FROM THE WORLD AND THE SENSE OF ANY INFORMATION YOU WANT BEING INSTANTLY FINDABLE AT YOUR FINGERTIPS OR PEOPLE E-MAILING YOU OR TEXTING YOU BUT IT BECOMES THIS TIME OUT WHERE I CAN ACTUALLY YOU KNOW JUST SORT OF START BREATHING AND FIND AS IF MY HEART RATE IS GETTING BACK TO NORMAL. THAT DOES OPEN UP WORLDS TO ME. IT MAKES ME KIND OF SEE THE WORLD AND APPRECIATE IT AGAIN. AND THE SAME GOES FOR MY FAMILY I HAVE SMALL KIDS. YOU READ TO THEM. AND IT IS THE SAME THING. IT BECOMES THIS KIND OF SAFE HAVEN AND A WAY IN WHICH I CAN SORT OF REACQUAINT MYSELF WITH THE WORLD IN A WAY THAT IS THAT IS NOT MEDIATED BY A SCREEN WHICH FEELS LIKE A VERY PRECIOUS THING THESE DATED. >> SARAH: YOU KNOW, THAT IS GREAT, PATRICK. I KNOW THAT FEELING EXACTLY. THAT KIND OF ESCAPE. AND ERIC, WHAT INFLUENCE HAVE BECOMES HAD ON YOU AND YOUR WRITING? >> ERIC: WELL, I HATE TO ADMIT IT BUT WHEN I WAS GROWING UP AS A BOY I READ VERY FEW BOOKS OTHER THAN PROBABLY THE HARDY BOYS. I WENT THROUGH THE HARDY BOYS PRETTY QUICKLY. WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE, MY PARENTS MOVED TO A SMALL TOWN IN INDIANA CALLED LOGANS PORT. ABOUT 17,000 PEOPLE LIVE IN LOGANS PORT. THEY HAD MOVED FROM PHILADELPHIA WHERE MY DAD WAS A FACTORY WORKER TO LOGANS PORT, INDIA AND I DIDN'T HAVE MUCH TO DO EXCEPT FOR DURING THE DAY I BALED HAY AND IN THE EVENING I DECIDED TO GO DOWN TO THE LOCAL LIBRARY FOR IS ACOMMUNITY OF ITS SIDE IT WAS INCREDIBLY WELL STOCKED LIBRARY. THE LIE BRAIN 81, THANK GOD FOR LIBRARIANS, SHE INTRODUCED ME TO AN INDIANA WRITER BY THE NAME OF SCOTT RUSSELL SANDERS WHO WRITES I WAS REALLY INTERESTED ACTUALLY IN HIS SCIENCE FICTION AND HE ALSO DOES A LOT OF NONFICTION ESSAYS AND MY NEXT STEP WAS AFTER I READ ALL OF HIS WORKS AT THE TIME, I DECIDED TO WRITE HIM A LETTER. THIS WAS PRE-E-MAIL. SO YOU ACTUALLY HAD TO WRITE A PHYSICAL LETTER AND HE WROTE BACK. HE SAID THANKS. HE SAID THAT HE THOUGHT HE MIGHT -- I MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN SOME OTHER ATHESE AND HE GAVE A LIST INCLUDED LESLIE MARVIN SILKO, TONI MORRISON, CHARLES JOHNSON, ITEM O'BRIEN AND TC BOYLE. THOSE ARE THE BOOKS THAT REALLY OPENED UP THE WORLD TO MOW ACTUALLY THE UNIFIERS VERSE. I JUST READ AND READ AND READ. BALED HAY AND READ. SOMETIMES I WOULD READ THE BOOK TWO OR THREE TIMES. I THINK THAT KIND OF PLANTED THE SEED THAT IF I, YOU KNOW, IF I COULD WRITE ANYWHERE EVEN CLOSE TO SOME OF THESE WRITERS AND I DON'T SAY I CAN BUT AT LEAST I COULD APPLY MY WAY IN THE FIELD OF JOURNALISM AND I DID. I WENT UP TO A SMALL NEWSPAPER IN ALABAMA. AND SO THEY PLANNED THE SEED. AND YOU KNOW I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, JUST MAYBE, MAYBE THAT -- NOW LOOKING BACK ON IT, IT MAY BE THAT ALSO IS AN INSPIRATION FOR WRITING MY FIRST BOOK AT AGE 55. >> SARAH: I'M GOING TO ASK YOU BOTH A QUESTION ABOUT IN SORT OF AN IMPACT QUESTION OR A QUESTION ABOUT SOMETHING THAT MAY HAVE HAPPENED WHILE YOU WERE DOING YOUR WORK. PATRICK, IN EMPIRE PAIN, YOU TAKE ON THREE GENERATIONS OF THE POWERFUL SACKLER FAMILY. I'M WONDERING, BECAUSE I'VE HAD EXPERIENCES IN MY OWN WRITING AND REPORTING, DID YOU EVER FEEL THREATENED OR INTIME DADE BY THE SACKLER -- BY THE SACKLER FAMILY OR LAWYERS FOR SACKLER OR LAWYERS FOR PERDUE? >> PATRICK: THE FIRST THING I SHOULD SAY FOR THE SAKE OF CLARITY. I WROTE THIS BIG BOOK ABOUT THREE GENERATIONS OF THE FAMILY THE FAMILY WOULDN'T TALK TO ME AND DIDN'T WANT ME TO WRITE THE BOOK. THEY STARTED TO THREATEN TO SUE ME BEFORE I WAS WRITING WHEN IT WAS ANNOUNCED THAT I WAS WRITING THE BACK AND THE LEGAL THREATS STARTED TO COME AND THEY CONTINUED OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS. THERE WAS AN -- >> SARAH: WHAT KIND OF LEGAL THREATS? >> PATRICK: PARDON ME? >> SARAH: WHAT SORT OF LEGAL THREATS? PARTICULAR THERE WERE LONG 10 DENTIOUS LETTERS, YOU KNOW, OBJECTING TO MY REPORTING IN THE PAST AND THEN THE NEW YORKER AND SORT OF MAKING ALL KINDS OF OMINOUS NOISES ABOUT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF I DIDN'T GET THING RIGHT AND THERE WAS KIND OF A CRAZY THING CALLED THE LITIGATION HOLD, WHAT THEY DID WAS THEY WROTE TO ME AND THEY SAY, WE MAY BE SUING YOU SO WHAT WE NEED YOU TO DO IS NOT DESTROY ANY EVIDENCE THAT COULD BE USED IN THAT EVENTUALLY LAWSUIT. DON'T DESTROY ANY SCRAP OF PAPER, DON'T DELETE ANY E-MAILS YOU NEED TO HOLD ON TO ALL THIS STUFF BECAUSE IT IS GOING TO BE EVIDENCE IF AND WHEN WE BRING A LAWSUIT AGAINST YOU. YOU TWO WILL APPRECIATE AS A REPORTER I MEAN ON THE ONE HAND THIS IS NO BIG DEAL. I WAS HAPPY TO KEEP ALL THIS STUFF. BUT I DID HAVE THESE FUNNY MOMENTS ALONG THE WAY AT ONE POINT A SOURCE GOT IN TOUCH WITH ME. THIS IS DURING THE PANDEMIC. AND SAID, I HAVE 40 BOXES OF DOCUMENTS THAT I WANT TO GIVE TO YOU. I'M GOING TO SEND THEM TO YOUR HOME. AND I TOLD MY WIFE, I WAS EXCITED AT THE THOUGHT OF 40 BOX OF DOCUMENTS, LEGAL DOCUMENTS. I TOLD MY WIFE WE'RE GOING TO GET A DELIVERY OF FORE BOXES OF DOCUMENT AND WE CAN NEVER THROW THEM AWAY BECAUSE I HAVE THIS LITIGATION HOLD. SHE SAID NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. THERE IS NOT ROOM FOR 40 BOXES OF DOCUMENTS IN THE HOUSE. I ENDED UP HAVING TO FLY REALLY AT THE HEIGHT OF THE PANDEMIC TO A CITY WHERE THIS PERSON WAS AND REVIEW ALL THE DOCUMENTS THERE. SO IT IS THESE LITTLE THINGS LIKE THAT. TOWARDS THE END OF MY WRITING THERE WAS A PROOF OF INVESTIGATOR WHO WAS STAKING OUT MY HOUSE JUST IN THE SUBURB S JUST OUTSIDE OF NEW YORK CITY. IT IS A WEIRD -- A LITTLE STRONG STRANGE TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION BECAUSE WAS INTIME DADE? I MEAN, NOT REALLY TO BE HONEST WITH YOU. I THINK THIS KIND OF COMES WITH THE TERRITORY AND IN SOME WAYS PART OF THE STORY THAT I WAS TRYING TO TELL WAS ABOUT A FAMILY AND A COMPANY THAT GOT AWAY WITH IT FOR A LONG TIME. PART OF THE REASON THEY GO AHEAD AWAY WITH IT IS THAT THEY USED THESE KINDS OF TACTICS AND SO IN THE BOOK, I TALK ABOUT HOW YOU KNOW WHEN YOU HAD A PERDUE PHARMA SALES REPRESENTATIVE WHO SUED THE COMPANY FOR WRONGFUL TERMINATION BECAUSE SHE WAS NOT PUSHING THEIR OPIOID AS AGGRESSIVELY AS THEY WANTED TO AND THEY FIRED HER. THEY JUST CRUSHED HER. THEY LAWYERED UP AND THEY WENT AFTER HER. WHEN BARRY MEYER WAS REPORTING FOR THE<i> NEW YORK TIMES</i> AND DID UNBELIEVABLE GROUNDBREAKING REPORTING ON PERDUE PHARMA, THE COMPANY SENT ITS LAWYERS TO THE<i> </i> NEW YORK TIMES AND SAID, YOU HAVE TO TAKE BARRY MEYER OFF THE STORY AND FOR COMPLICATED REASONS HAVING TO DO WITH THE INSTITUTIONAL HISTORY OF THE TIMES AT THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT , THE PAPER DID. IT TOOK HIM OFF THE STORY. SO YOU KNOW -- >> SARAH: HE WAS NOT HAPPY ABOUT THAT. >> PATRICK: HE WAS VERY UNHAPPY ABOUT IT. I SHOULD SAY I HAVE TALKED TO MANY PEOPLE AT THE TIME WHO THINK IN RETROSPECT IT WAS A BIG MISTAKE TO DO THAT. BUT IN A WAY WHAT IS INTERESTING TO ME ABOUT THAT EPISODE, IT IS A STORY OF TWO INSTITUTIONAL CULTURES. WHAT HAPPENED AT THE<i> NEW YORK</i> TIMES IS JUST BEFORE PERDUE WENT TO THEM AND SAID YOU HAVE TO TAKE YOUR GUY OFF THE STORY. THEIR CLAIM IS HE HAD A CONFLICT OF INTEREST BECAUSE HE HAD WRITTEN A BOOK. THE TIMES TOOK HIM OFF THE STORY. JUST BEFORE THAT, THERE HAD BEEN THE JASON BLAIR SCANDAL. THERE WAS A WRITER WHO WAS FABULOUS MADE A LOT OF STUFF UP AND THE TIMES TO ITS GREAT CREDIT WAS KIND OF SEIZED BY THIS FEELING OF LIKE MY GOD, WHAT HAVE WE DONE? WE NEED TO RIGHT THE SHIP. WE CAN NEVER LET THIS SORT OF THING HAPPEN AGAIN. THEY'RE VERY VULNERABLE TO A CRITICISM FROM THE OUTSIDE AT THAT MOMENT. CONTRAST THAT WITH PERDUE PHARMA WHICH IN 2007 PLEADS GUILT TO CHARGES AND PLAYS A $600 MILLION FINE AND JUST KEEP S ON RIGHT ON GOING DOING THE BAD STUFF THAT IT HAD BEEN DOING AND INDEED PLEADS GUILTY TO NEW CRIMINAL CHARGES IN 2020 TO ME THIS WAS QUITE INTERESTING. ON THE ONE HAND ANYBODY CAN LOOK AT THE TIMES MAKING THAT DECISION AND FEEL THEY WERE BULLIED AND MANIPULATED. ON THE OTHER HAND, THEY WERE TRYING TO BEHAVE AT AN INSTITUTIONALLY RESPONSIBLE WAY WHICH IS A STARK CONTRAST IN THE WAY THAT PERDUE HAS CONDUCTED ITSELF. >> SARAH: ERIC, HOW ABOUT YOU? YOU HAVE WRITTEN AND RECORD ABOUT THE COUNTRY'S MOST POWER FUL OPIOID DISTRIBUTERS. DID THEY EVER TRY TO BLOCK YOUR WORK, DID THEY EVER TRY TO INTIMIDATE YOU? >> ERIC: FIRST OFF, CONGRATULATIONS TO PATRICK. I HAVE DEALT WITH PERDUE PHARMA BEFORE. I HAVE NOT DEALT WITH SACKLERS AND IT IS REALLY A NASTY COMPANY. YOU KNOW YOU SHOULD BE CONGRATULATED FOR YOUR COURAGE, YOUR CONVICTION, YOUR KAHONES I GUESS IS THE BEST WAY TO PUT IT GREAT WORK. I DIDN'T HAVE ANY BLACK LIMOUSINES STOCKING MY HOUSE BUT THERE WAS A LOT OF THREATS OF LITIGATION FROM THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IN WEST VIRGINIA. WHEN I GOT SOME LEAKED DOCUMENTS, I NOTIFIED HIM THAT I WAS DOING -- GOING TO DO A STORY ABOUT HIS ROLE IN THIS LAWSUIT AGAINST THE DISTRIBUTER S. AND HE HAD ONE OF HIS UNDERLING S CALL OUR LAWYER AND E-MAIL ME THAT IF WE PRINTED THIS STORY, IT WOULD BE A CASE OF ACTUAL MALICE AND THAT WE WOULD FACE COURT SANCTIONS SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANT IF IT MEANT I WAS GOING TO JAIL OR SOMEBODY WAS GOING TO JAIL. IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. HE ALSO -- A AG ROW TALL LEE AID HE LAUNCHED AN INVESTIGATION INTO THE NEWSPAPER BECAUSE THAT MAIL I WAS WORKING OUT OF AT THE TIME AND HE SPEANED US FOR ALL OUR PERSONNEL RECORD AND ALL OF OUR FINANCIAL RECORDS. THAT WAS IN RETALIATION FOR WHAT WE HAD REPORTED. AND THEN LAST MAY I GOT -- AT THE LANDMARK TRIAL WE FOUND OUT THAT THE DISTRIBUTERS HAD ACTUALLY HIRED A CONSULTANT TO QUOTE TURN THE TIDE OF MY INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING INTO THE DRUG COMPANY'S -- THEY WEREN'T UNFORTUNATELY THEY WEREN'T WORKING TO TURN THE TID E OF THE OPIOID EPIDEMIC AND LOWER DEATHS BUT THEY WERE TRYING TO DERAIL MY REPORTING AND IMPROVE THEIR CORPORATE IMAGE WHICH WAS OF COURSE SAGGING AT THE TIME. THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT THEIR PLAN DIDN'T WORK. I'M STILL HERE IN WEST VIRGINIA , STILL COVERING THE OPIOID CRISIS AND PLAN TO CONTINUE TO DO SO. >> SARAH: ON THAT NOTE, I THINK WE'RE GOING TO TAKE SOME QUESTIONS HERE FROM THE AUDIENCE AND THERE IS ONE ON WEST VIRGINIA HAVE THAT MAYBE YOU CAN HELP US UNDERSTAND. IT'S FROM BETSY. SHE WANTS TO KNOW WHY DID SOME STATES, LIKE WEST VIRGINIA, OPT OUT OF THE MULTI-STATE SETTLEMENT ON OPIOIDS AND I GUESS YOU HAVE TO GIVE A LITTLE BACKGROUND ON THE MDL BUT WHY DID WEST VIRGINIA -- I THINK PEOPLE ARE CONFUSED BY THAT. >> ERIC:" IN A NUTSHELL, IT IS BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T THINK THEY WERE GOING TO GET ENOUGH MONEY FROM THE NATIONAL SETTLEMENT. I HAVE SEEN NUMBERS CLOSE TO 400 MILLION THAT THEY WOULD GET FROM THE NATIONAL SETTLEMENT. THEY THINK THE STATE DESERVES A LOT MORE THAN THAT. I THINK THE PEOPLE IN THE STATE FEEL THE SAME WAY. WE'VE GOT BASICALLY THREE DIFFERENT THINGS GOING ON. AS YOU MENTIONED THE MDL, WHICH IS PART OF THE $26 BILLION SETTLEMENT THAT IS ON THE TABLE AND THAT IS -- HAS BEEN MOVING FORWARD. I THINK THEY GOT 40 STATES THAT HAVE SIGNED ON TO THAT. AND WHAT THEY'RE DOING NOW IS WORKING ON THE CITIES AND COUNTIES TO ALSO SIGN UP AND I THINK THEY HAVE TWO OR 3 MONTHS TO DO THAT. THEN WE HAVE A PENDING CASE, HUNTINGTON, HUNTINGTON IS THE SECOND LARGEST CITY IN THE STATE OF WEST VIRGINIA AND THEY'RE SUING THE DISTRIBUTERS. THAT CASE HAS CONCLUDED AND THEY'RE WAITING FOR A JUDGE TO MAKE A DECISION. THERE IS ALSO SOMETHING CALLED THE MASS LITIGATION PANEL WHICH MOST OF THE OTHER CITIES -- 60 PLUS CITIES, TOWNS, COUNTIES, HOSPITALS, WARDS, THEY'RE SEPARATE FROM THE MDL. BUT IT BASICALLY BOILS DOWN TO THEY FEEL THAT, YOU KNOW, WEST VIRGINIA HAS BORN THE BRUNT OF THE OPIOID STORM AND THEREFORE WE SHOULD GET A LOT MORE MONEY THAN WE'RE GOING TO GET OUT OF THE CURRENT SETTLEMENT. >> SARAH: PATRICK, THERE'S A QUESTION HERE THAT YOU CAN HELP US WITH. SO A FEW WEEKS AGO THERE WAS A SETTLEMENT BY A BANKRUPTCY COURT THAT THAT DISSOLVED PURR ARE YOU FARM A IT IS INTERESTING HOW THE COMPANIES GO TO BANKRUPTCY COURT. WE SAW THIS WITH THE DRUGMAKER MALICROP ALSO WENT INTO BANKRUPTCY. THIS PARTICULAR SETTLEMENT DISSOLVES PERDUE PHARMA AND REQUIRES THE SACKLER FAMILY AND IT IS PROTECTING THEM FROM FURTHER LIABILITY. I THINK PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THE COURT DID AND WHETHER THAT IS THE END OF THE STORY AND WE HAVE A QUESTION FROM SUSAN WHO SAYS, CAN YOU HELP US BREAK DOWN OR INTERPRET THIS WEEK'S DOJ ACTION ON THE SACKLER BANKRUPTCY DEAL BECAUSE I FEEL -- MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT THIS WEEK JUST TOOK ACTION TO BLOCK THIS CONTROVERSIAL DEAL. CAN YOU KIND OF WALK US THROUGH ALL THIS BECAUSE IT IS PRETTY CONFUSING. >> PATRICK: YEAH. I MEAN, HOW LONG YOU GOT? >> SARAH: LOOKS LIKE WE HAVE ABOUT SEVEN MINUTES. KEEP IT IN SEVEN MINUTES. >> PATRICK: HOPEFULLY WE'LL GET TO IT AND TIME FOR ANOTHER QUESTION. VERY BRIEFLY, IN 2019 PERDUE DO PHARMACY DECLARED BANKRUPTCY A COMPANY THAT GENERATED A HUGE AMOUNT OF MONEY FROM OXYCONTIN. HOW COULD IT DECLARE BANKRUPTCY TWO ANSWERS. THERE WERE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF LAWSUITS AGAINST THE COMPANY. EVERY STATE IN THE UNION WAS SUING THEM. BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY OVER THE PRIOR DECADE THE SACKLER FAMILY HAD PULLED MORE THAN $10 BILLION OUT OF THE COMPANY. SO THEY SORT OF SIPHONED ALL THE MONEY OUT AND KICKED THE COMPANY INTO BANKRUPTCY. SO THIS BANKRUPTCY DEAL HAS BEEN APPROVED. WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE FIND REALLY GOOD. ALLING, THE SACKLER THEMSELVES DID NOT DECLARE BANKRUPTCY BUT THROUGH THE BANKRUPTCY COURT THEY HAVE BEEN GIVEN ESSENTIAL LY IMMUNITY FROM ANY IN FUTURE CIVIL LIABILITY RELATING TO THE OPIOID CRISIS. THEY HAD TO PAY FOR THIS. THEY PLEDGED THEY WOULD PAY OVER A DECADE THEY'LL PAY $4.5 BILLION. BUT THAT THAT'S IT AND GIVEN THE SIZE OF THEIR FORTUNE IT STANDS TO REASON THAT THEY CAN MANAGE THAT AMOUNT OF MONEY IF IT IS A LOT OF MONEY BUT TINY COMPARED TO THE DAMAGE AND WHAT SOME WOULD ARGUE IS RESPONSIBILITY AND COMPARED TO THEIR REMAINING FORTUNE. WHAT HAPPENED THIS WEEK IS THAT THE TRUSTY OF THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WHO WAS SORE OF HELPING TO OVERSEE THIS OR KIND OF MONITOR THE BANKRUPTCY APPEALED FILED A NOTICE OF APPEAL AND TRIED TO KIND OF BLOCK THIS DEAL FROM GOING THROUGH. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF -- A COUPLE OF STATES THAT HAD ALREADY ANNOUNCED THAT THEY WERE GOING TO APPEAL. THIS IS SIGNIFICANT AND INTERESTING KIND OF POLITICALLY BECAUSE IT WAS DURING THE LAST ADMINISTRATION THAT THERE WAS A KIND OF AN EFFORT TO WRAP THINGS UP WITH PERDUE AND THE SACKLERS AND SO YOU HAVE A CHANGE OF ADMINISTRATION. THAT MAY BE PART OF WHAT IS GOING ON. THERE ALSO WASN'T A NORMAL OBJECTION BY THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE SO IT IS A LITTLE UNCLEAR WHERE THIS WILL GO. IT DOES SEEM TO TRIGGER THE THE APPEAL WHICH IS VERY UPSETTING FOR PEOPLE THAT WANT TO SEE THE DEAL KIND OF DONE AND RESOLVED. WE WILL NOW HAVE TO SEE WHAT FORM THAT APPEAL WILL TAKE. DOES IT GO THROUGH THE DISTRICT COURT? DOES IT GO RIGHT TO THE CIRCUIT COURT? COULD IT GO EVENTUALLY TO THE SUPREME COURT AND REALLY AT THE HEART OF THIS IS THIS QUESTION OF CAN A FEDERAL BANKRUPTCY JUDGE RELEASE FROM ALL FUTURE LIABILITY PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT DECLARED BANKRUPTCY BEFORE HIM. PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT IN HIS COURT AS DEBTORSS. DOES HE HAVE THE POWER. DOES THE BANKRUPTCY JUDGE HAVE POWER FOR A CERTAIN SUM OF MONEY HE'LL LET THE SACKLERS GO ON THEIR MERRY WAY AND NOT HAVE TO FACE ANY LIABILITY IN THE FUTURE. I DID THAT IN THREE MINUTES. >> SARAH: YOU DID VERY WELL. IT IS INTERESTING IN ALL OF THESE SETTLEMENTS, THESE SETTLEMENTS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, NO ONE IS TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS HORRIFIC OPIOID EPIDEMIC THAT HAS CLAIMED THOUSANDS. HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF LIVES. YOU BOTH, IN YOUR BOOKS, YOU'RE VERY TOUGH, HEARTBREAKING BOOKS DESCRIBE THE EPIDEMIC, THE CASTS, THE EFFECTS. IS ANYONE GOING TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE, DO YOU THINK, ERIC , WHY DON'T YOU YOU TAKE THAT FIRST AND THEN PATRICK. >> ERIC: WELL, WITH PERDUE PHARMA AAS YOU KNOW, SARAH, THEY HAVE MULTIPLE -- DOZENS OF LAWSUITS WERE FILED BEFORE THE MDL AGAINST THEM. EVERY TIME THEY PUT ON -- PUT IT THEY WOULD SEAL THE RECORDS AFTER -- SEAL THE ENTIRE CASE FILE WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY UN HEARD OF IN EXCHANGE FOR, YOU KNOW, THE PLAINTIFFS, YOU KNOW, THE FAMILIES THAT LOST LOVED ONES, YOU KNOW, AGREEING TO IT, YOU KNOW, A CERTAIN SETTLEMENT. BASICALLY THEY WERE BUYING SILENCE FROM ALL OF THESE FAMILIES. I MEAN THAT IS -- THANKS TO PATRICK AND OTHERS, THAT IS NO LONGER THE CASE. WE KNOW THE REAL STORY. AS FAR AS HOLDING INDIVIDUALS ACCOUNTABLE THAT IS GOING TO BE PROBABLY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. THEY HAVE DONE SOME OF THE MANUFACTURERS AND I DON'T SEE THAT HAPPENING WITH ANY OF THE DISTRIBUTERS IN TERMS OF JAIL TIME OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. THE >> PATRICK: I WOULD AGREE WITH ERIC. I MEAN I THINK THAT THIS -- I SHOULD SAY, THIS IS A -- TO MY MIND PART OF A DEEPER PROBLEM IN THE UNITED STATES. WHICH IS THAT WE -- WE ARE VERY , VERY ACCOMMODATING OF PEOPLE WHO COMMIT CORPORATE CRIME AND WE MAKE IT OUR SYSTEM I THINK MAKES IT SURPASSINGLY EASY FOR BIG CORPORATIONS TO EFFECTIVELY BUY THEIR WAY OUT OF ANY INDIVIDUAL LIABILITY. WHAT HAPPENS IS -- AND THIS HAPPENED WITH PERDUE. THE CORPORATION PLEADS GUILTY AND AGREES TO PAY A BIG FINE. BUT, YOU KNOW, THERE IS NO INDIVIDUALS CHARGED AT ALL AND IT SORT OF BEGS THE QUESTION, RIGHT, TO THE MEN ON THE STREET , YOU KNOW, HOW CAN THE CORPORATION BE PLEADING GUILTY TO THINGS THAT NO INDIVIDUAL HAS DONE ANYTHING WRONG? IN MOI BOOK I SAY IT IS ALMOST LIKE IT IS A DRIVELESS CAR. HOW IS IT THAT IT COULD HAVE ENGAGED IN THIS MISCONDUCT WITHOUT ANY HUMAN AGENCY. BUT I'M AFRAID THAT IS THE WAY IT WORKS GENERALLY SPEAKING AND YOU CAN OBVIOUSLY CONTRAST THAT WITH WHAT HAPPENS WHEN STREET LEVEL DRUG DEALERS SALE HEROIN OR SALE FENTANYL, THESE PEOPLE -- OFTEN PEOPLE OF COLOR ARE HELD TO ACCOUNT WHEN PEOPLE TAKE THOSE DRUGS AND DIE FOR DISTRIBUTING THEM AND SENT AWAY TO PRISON FOR YEARS. WE DON'T SEE THAT IN THE CORPORATE CONTEXT. WHAT I WORRY ABOUT LOOKING FORWARD, LOOKING AT THE NEXT CRISIS IS, WHAT KIND OF A DETERRENT IS IT TO PEOPLE IF THEY KNOW THERE IS MILLIONS, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO BE MADE AND IN THE EVENT THERE IS REAL LY NEGATIVE DOWNSTREAM CONSEQUENCES, HUMAN COSTS OF THEIR BAD DECISIONS, THAT THEY WON'T EVER PERSONALLY BE HELD RESPONSIBLE. THEY CAN KIND OF HOLD THEIR HEAD HIGH, YOU KNOW, MOVE ON TO THEIR NEXT JOB. THE COMPANY WILL PLEAD GUILTY. THE COMPANY WILL PAY THE FINE AND THEN THEY'LL JUST KEEP MOVING. SO TO ME THAT IS KIND OF ONE OF THE MOST DISMAYING TAKE-AWAYS FROM THIS WHOLE STORY. >> ERIC: AND PATRICK YOU MAY WANT TO SAY THE HIGHEST PAYOUT IS FOR VICTIMS OF THE OPIOID CRISIS. ISN'T IT LIKE THAT 35,000? >> PATRICK: YEAH, THAT IS IN THE VERY EXTREME CASE YOU CAN PROVE. IN THE PERDUE CASE YOU CAN PROVE THAT A RELATIVE DIED OF AN OVERDOSE OF OXYTOCIN. YOU HAVE ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE WHO GET A FEW THOUSAND DOLLARS IF THAT. >> ERIC: EXACTLY. >> SARAH: SO, OUR LAST QUESTION AND BOTH OF YOU CAN CRY TRY TO ANSWER THIS. WE DON'T HAVE MUCH TIME LEFT. THIS COMES FROM KAY WHO ASKS, WHAT CAN ORDINARY PEOPLE DO TO TRY TO IMPROVE THE OPIOID SITUATION WITH REGARDS TO THESE CORPORATIONS? >> PATRICK: ERIC. >> ERIC: SAY THAT AGAIN? >> SARAH: WHAT CAN ORDINARY PEOPLE DO. THIS IS ORDINARY PEOPLE LISTENING TO THIS. READING YOUR BOOKS DO TO TRY TO IMPROVE THE OPIOID SITUATION WITH REGARDS TO THESE CORPORATIONS. >> ERIC: I MEAN, THEY COULD WRITE LETTERS TO THEIR LEGISLATORS. I'M NOT SURE THAT WOULD DO MUCH GOOD. ON THE GROUND I KNOW AROUND HERE EVERYBODY CARRIES NARCAN INCLUDING MYSELF. MAYBE PATRICK HAS SOME IDEA. THERE IS THESE -- >> SARAH: PATRICK WROTE A LOT OF -- I GUESS ABOUT SOME OF THE PROTESTERS WHO WENT TO THE MUSEUMS, THE SACKLER MUSEUMS. >> PATRICK: LISTEN, I THINK THAT KIND OF PROTEST HAS AN IMPACT. I THINK THAT THE -- YOU KNOW WITH THE SACKLERS IT PROBABLY HELPS ON SOME LEVEL THAT IT IS A FAMILY SO IT IS -- IT IS A STORY YOU CAN TELL SORT OF PERSONIFIED IN A WAY THE BOARD MEMBERS OF MECASON MAY NOT BE. BUT I DO THINK THAT PUBLIC PROTESTERS, I THINK GETTING OUT THERE ON THE STREET I THINK LETTING PEOPLE KNOW THAT YOU'RE WATCHING. LETTING ELECTED OFFICIALS KNOW. I THINK THAT THE -- SOME OF THE STATE ATTORNEYS GENERAL WHO PUSHED REALLY HARD TO EXTRACT GREATER CONCESSIONS FROM THE SACKLER AND PERDUE. I THINK THEY WERE DRIVEN IN PART BY THE ONES WHO WERE REAL LY EARNEST OUT THERE AND KIND OF DRIVING THE STORY I THINK THEY WERE DRIVEN IN PART BY CONTACT WITH VICTIMS GROUPS, WITH COMMUNITY GROUPS. THEY HAD SEEN THE WAY THIS PLAY ED OUT IN THEIR OWN COMMUNITIES AND HAD SEEN KIND OF A SENSE OF OUTRAGE AND A SENSE THAT THERE SHOULD BE SOME ASSEMBLANCE OF JUSTICE AND ACCOUNT BUTTABILITY HERE. I DON'T KNOW THAT IT IS ENOUGH OR IT COULD EVER BE ENOUGH BUT I THINK THAT THAT LEVEL OF ENGAGEMENT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE. >> SARAH: UNFORTUNATELY WE ARE OUT OF TIME. THANK YOU TO ALL OF YOU WHO HAVE BEEN WATCHING AND THANK YOU TO BOTH OF OUR EXTRAORDINARY AUTHORS, PATRICK RADDEN KEEFE AND ERIC EYRE. I REALLY ENCOURAGE YOU ALL TO READ THEIR BOOKS. THEY'RE JUST TERRIFIC, IMPORTANT, IMPORTANT BOOKS. AND ENJOY THE REST OF THE NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL. >> SPONSORED BY THE JAMES MADISON COUNCIL. >> LAURIE: HI, AND WELCOME TO THE 2021 LIBRARY OF CONGRESS NATIONAL BACK FESTIVAL. I'M LAURIE SEGALL. I'M A CORRESPOND ENFOR 60 MINUTES PLUS AND CBS NEWS AND ALSO THE FOUNDER OF DOT, DOT, DOT MEDIA WHICH LOOKS AT THE INTERSECTION OF TECH AND CULTURE. SO I HAVE TO SAY, SOMEONE HAS COVERED TECH FOR OVER A DECADE, I COULD NOT BE MORE EXCITED FOR THIS PANEL. I'M HERE WITH ANNA WEINER, AUTHOR OF UNCANNY VALLEY AND SARAH FRIER, AUTHOR OF NO FILTER. THESE ARE TWO BOOKS THAT REALLY CAPTURE AN IMPORTANT MOMENT IN HISTORY. THIS IS THE SECOND WAVE OF TECHNOLOGY THAT SHAPES SOCIETY AND ALL OF US AND THEY BOTH GET INTO THE COMPLICATION THAT CAPE ALONG WITH IT. THEY'RE VERY COMPLEMENTASM RY TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THEM YOU CAN CHECK OUT THE WEBSITE, CLC. GOV/BOOKFEST. BEFORE WE START WE'RE GOING TO SPEAK FOR 20 MINUTES AND THEN THE LAST 10 MINUTES WE HAVE FOR QUESTIONS. PLEASE ASK QUESTIONS SUBMIT QUESTIONS. I KNOW THESE WOMEN WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU. SO START SUBMITTING QUESTIONS NOW. SO ANNA AND SARAH, WELCOME. WELCOME, GUYS. >> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING US. >> LAURIE: I WAS JUST SAYING WHAT A DREAM TEAM. YOU BOTH HAVE BOOKS THAT REALLY COVER SUCH AN IMPORTANT MOMENT IN HISTORY. THIS ERA OF START-UPS AND DISRUPTION AS THEY WERE BECOMING MAINSTREAM. FOR BOTH OF YOU GUYS JUST TO START OUT, WHAT WAS APPEALING ABOUT THE SUBJECT, ABOUT THE TECH BOOM? I KNOW ANNA FOR YOU, YOU WENT AND ACTUALLY WORKED AT MULTIPLE START-UPS EVEN WITH THIS BACKGROUND YOU HAPPEN TO GET INTO WRITING AND YOU ENDED UP YOUR JOURNEY TOOK YOU TO SAN FRANCISCO FOR START-UPS AND YOU HAVE COVERED TECHNOLOGY, SARAH, FOR SO LONG. I HAVE FOLLOWED YOUR WORKING SO LONG IN THE TECH SPACE. WHAT WAS APPEALING FOR YOU GUYS >> I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING THAT RUNS THE THEME THROUGH ANNA'S PERSONAL WRITING AND MY REPORTING IS LIKE IN THE TECH WORLD THERE IS THIS >> SARAH: THERE IS THIS MYTHOLOGY THAT IS OUT THERE ABOUT SUCCESS, ABOUT HOW THINGS WORK, HOW ABOUT HOW TO WIN AND I THINK THAT WHAT I INTENDED TO DO WITH INSTAGRAM STORY IS TAKE THIS AT THAT, PEOPLE JUST THOUGHT, THIS IS JUST A PERFECT ACQUISITION. BOUGHT BY FaceBook FOR $1 BILLION WHICH IS UNHEARD OF AT THE TIME. WHAT A SUCCESS. THEY GO AHEAD TO HAVE THEIR COMPANY WITHIN FaceBook. PRETTY MUCH A SEPARATE COMPANY. NONE OF RISK. NONE OF THE AWARD, EVERYTHING IS GREAT. ONCE YOU DIG BIND THE SCENES ACTUALLY IT WAS NOT THAT GREAT. THERE WAS A LOT OF TENSION WITH FaceBook AND A LOT OF IMPLICATIONS FOR HOW WE LIVE TODAY BASED ON THE DECISIONS THAT WERE MADE BY THE INSTAGRAM FOUNDERS AND THINGS THAT JUST WERE NOT AS PERFECT AS THEY SOUNDED IN THE PRESS. AND SO I THINK THAT THE INSTAGRAM STORY WAS A VERY -- IT IS NOT UNTOLD AND UNDERTOLD STORY. IT IS SO POWERFUL YET SO UNDER SCRUTINIZED AND I THINK THAT THAT IS WHAT DREW ME TO IT. >> LAURIE: YEAH. AND I MEAN, AND ANNA, I LOVE HOW THE BECOMES KIND OF OPENS UP WITH THESE DREAMS AND I THINK A LOT OF US CAN RELATE TO COMING TO NEW YORK AND DREAM IS ONE THING AND YOU END UP IN SAN FRANCISCO WORKING AT A TECH COMPANY. SO WHAT WAS IT THAT WAS SO APPEALING TO YOU AT THE TIME? >> ANNA: WELL, I WAS COMING FROM EAST COAST BACK PUBLISHING AND I WAS REALLY LOOKING FOR A CAREER SHIFT THAT WOULD FEEL LIKE IT HAD A FUTURE, THAT IT HAD MOMENTUM. I WORKED AT A -- AN E-BOOK START-UP VERY BRIEFLY IN NEW YORK AN MOVED TO SAN FRANCISCO AND JUST SORT OF INTOXICATED BY THE SPEED IN WHICH THINGS MOVED AND THE WAY THAT I -- INDIVIDUAL EMPLOYEES REALLY FELT LIKE THEY WERE HAVING AN IMPACT DESPITE QUITE YOUNG AND INEXPERIENCED AND I THINK LIKE SARAH WAS SAYING, THIS -- THERE WAS A LOT OF MYTHOLOGY AROUND SILICON VALLEY AT THE TIME AND I WAS SORT OF AMBULANTLY AWARE OF THAT BUT I ABSOLUTELY BOUGHT INTO IT BECAUSE I WAS IN THE CULTURE. IT WAS VERY PERVASIVE AND I STARTED WRITING ABOUT IT MOSTLY AS A WAY TO SORT OF PROCESS THE DISTANCE BETWEEN ALL OF THIS MYTHOLOGY AND ALL THIS ENTHUSIASM AND EXCITEMENT AND MY OWN EXPERIENCES AS A LOW- LEVEL EMPLOYEE AT SOME OF THESE TECH COMPANIES. SO I WENT INTO IT REAL REALLY WITH NO INTENTION OF COVERING -- WRITING ABOUT IT AND COVERING IS SUCH A JOURNALISM TERM. THIS WAS NOT MY WORLD AT ALL. THIS WAS REALLY I WANTED A CAREER SHIFT. AND ULTIMATELY FOUND THAT WRITING ABOUT IT WAS A MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE PLACE FOR ME TO BE AND -- BUT IT REALLY I FELL INTO IT BACKWARDS IN THAT WAY. IT IS -- I THINK THAT THAT DISTANCE HAS NARROWED OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS BETWEEN EXPECTATION AND REALITY AND MYTHOLOGY AND REALITY. BUT THANKS TO RECORDING BOY PEOPLE LIKE SARAH AND LIKE YOU, LAURIE. YEAH. I THINK THAT IS REALLY WHAT DREW ME IN IN THE FIRST PLACE. >> LAURIE: THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRUCK YOU ABOUT BOTH OF Y'ALL'S BOOKS. WE KIND OF GREW UP IN THESE DIFFERENT WAY, RIGHT, I CREATED OUR START UP BE AT CNN BACK IN 2009 AND YOU SAY IN YOUR BOOK, ANNA, TWO YEARS STAR-UP YEARS EVERYTHING MOVES SO QUICKLY AND SARAH YOU COVERED THAT AND WE SEE SO MANY CHANGES AND THERE WAS THIS CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME THERE WAS A MYTHOLOGY, RIGHT, WE'RE MOVING FAST AND BREAKING THING. THIS WAS THE ERA OF DISRUPTION. SARAH, YOU DESCRIBE INSTAGRAM AND THIS ONE STORY THAT THE PUBLIC AND HAD MEDIA MYSELF INCLUDED BY THE WAY I REMEMBER SITTING ON CNN AND BEING LIKE IT SOLD FOR $1 BILLION. CAN YOU BELIEVE IT? THIS WAS UNHEARD OF AT THE TIME TO FaceBook. YOU REALLY GOT IN THERE AND UNVEILED LIKE THE CRAZIEST MOST FASCINATING STORY OF INSTAGRAM BEHIND-THE-SCENES. WHAT WAS IT ABOUT INSTAGRAM THAT YOU WERE LIKE, OKAY, WE'VE GOT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS COMPANY BECAUSE FaceBook HAS BEEN SCRUTINIZED PRETTY MUCH AND NOW INSTAGRAM IS SEND BY FaceBook AND I'M CURIOUS SOMEONE WHO HAS DEALT WITH F aceBook, HOW DID IDOL WITH THE ROAD BLOCKS AND REPORTING AND REALLY GETTING THE STORY AND GETTING IN THERE. >> SARAH: YEAH, INSTAGRAM, I JUST -- I JUST THOUGHT THERE IS NO OTHER APP THAT HAS SUCH A HOLD OVER OUR CULTURE. IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT WHAT WE DO ON OUR PHONES AND WHAT WE DO ON OUR -- ON THE INTERNET IN GENERAL. IT IS ABOUT WHAT WE DO IN ORALS LIVES. INSTAGRAM IS CHANGING HUMAN WHATEVER AND OUR PERCEPTION OF POPULARITY, OF CELEBRITY, OF ENTREPRENEURSHIP AND ALL THESE THINGS. PEOPLE WHO ARE YOUNG NOW, YOU KNOW, THEY SEE BEING AN INFLUENCER IS A PATH FOR THEMSELVES OR THEY'RE COMPARING THEMSELVES TO OTHER PEOPLE ON INSTAGRAM. SO I JUST WANTED TO UNDERSTAND THAT CONNECTION BETWEEN THE DECISIONS THAT A COMPANY MAKES AND THE DISCUSSIONS THAT WE ALL MAKE AS HUMANS, YOU KNOW, USING THEIR PRODUCT. AND IT REALLY ALL WENT BACK TO THAT IDEA OF GROWTH. THIS SILICON VALLEY JUST OBSESSION WITH GETTING MORE USERS, MORE ATTENTION AND THIS KIND OF PRODUCT PATHWAY THAT IS LIKE AS LONG AS YOU CAN GET BIG ENOUGH AND GET ENOUGH ATTENTION THEN YOU CAN JUST SALE ADVERTISING OFF OF IT AND FOR INSTAGRAM, THE WAY THAT THEY MANAGED TO DO THAT WELL ALSO PLANTING SEEDS IN OUR CULTURE AND DECIDING WHO WOULD BECOME FAMOUS AND FIGURING OUT LIKE WHAT THEY WANTED TO BE COOL, THAT WAS JUST SO -- SO UN SILICON VALLEY TO ME. THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, TWITTER AND FaceBook Face Book ARE ALWAYS JUST LIKE, WE'RE JUST A REFLECTION OF HUMANITY. NO, INSTAGRAM WAS MORPHING HUMANITY FOR GOOD AND FOR BAD AND I REALLY WANTED TO DIG INTO THAT. >> LAURIE: WAS THERE ANYTHING LIKE ROLLING UP YOUR SLEEVES WHEN YOU GET IN AND INTERVIEWED SOMEONE LIKE TAKE US TO SOME OF ONE THESE INTERVIEWS. WHAT WAS THE THING THAT SOMEONE SAID THAT YOU WERE LIKE OH MY GOD. I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT, YOU KNOW , THAT THIS HAPPENED BEHIND-THE-SCENES AT INSTAGRAM. >> SARAH: OH MY GOSH THERE ARE SO MANY THING. LIKE HEARING THE STORIES OF HOW THEY BENT OVER BACKWARDS FOR CERTAIN CELEBRITIES, HEARING THE STORIES OF HOW THEY REALLY WERE KEEN MAKERS OF DECIDING WHO WOULD BECOME FAMOUS AND NOT BUT ALSO THE STORY WITH FaceB ook. THE ATTENTION WITH FaceBook ONE OF THE STORIES THAT REALLY JUMPED OUT TO ME EARLY ON IS WHEN INSTAGRAM FINALLY JOINED F aceBook, THOSE FIRST FEW WEEKS OF INTEGRATION, FaceB ook WAS NOT SURE IF THEY WANTED TO HELP THEM GROW. FIRST THEY HAD TO DEVISE A STUDY TO FIGURE OUT IF INSTAGRAM WAS A COMPETITIVE THREAT TO FaceBook. HERE THEY SPENT THIS UNGODLY AMOUNT OF MONEY ON THIS COMPANY AND THEY WERE WILLING TO LET IT DIE IF IT WAS ANY THREAT TO F aceBook. OF COURSE THAT WAS JUST FORESHADOWING FOR WITH WOULD HAPPEN LATER. IN THE MOST SHOCKING THING THAT I UNCOVERED IN MY BOOK WAS THAT ULTIMATELY MARK ZUCKERBERG STILL -- STUNNED INSTAGRAMS GROWTH. ONCE HOE SAW THAT INSTAGRAM WAS POTENTIALLY TAKING EYEBALLS AWAY FROM FaceBook, AROUND WHEN FaceBook'S TURMOIL REALLY STARTED TO HEAT UP AND THE POST 2016 ELECTION PERIOD, HE WAS THINKING, OKAY, WE HAVE GIVEN INSTAGRAM ALL THESE RESOURCES NOW IT IS TIME FOR THEM TO BOOST FaceBook. AND NOW INSTAGRAM'S JOB REALLY IS TO BE A FUNNEL OF ATTENTION INTO FaceBook, INC., WHEREAS PREVIOUSLY IT WAS TRYING TO ATTEMPT TO BE INDEPENDENT. BUT THE FACT THAT HE COULD JUST DO THAT TO A COMPANY THAT -- THAT HE OWNED, IT JUST GIVES ME A SENSE OF HOW THE COMPANY FEELS THAT THEY CAN MANIPULATE OUR BEHAVIOR ANY WAY THEY WANT. DOESN'T REALLY MATTER WHAT IS POPULAR. >> LAURIE: YEAH. I THINK THE HUMANIZATION AND THIS IS FOR BOTH YOU AND ANNA, THE HUMANIZATION OF THE TECH LEADERS EVEN THOUGH ANNA IT IS SO FUNNY IN YOUR BOOK YOU DON'T ACTUALLY SAY THE NAMES. YOU'LL TALK ABOUT THE MICRO- BLOGGING COMPANY. YOU'LL TALK ABOUT I THINK YOU REFER TO FaceBook AS THE SOCIAL NETWORK EVERYONE AID. I DON'T KNOW IF IT IS FaceB ook. YOU CAN CONFIRM OR DENY. BUT YOU EVEN THOUGH YOU DON'T REALLY REFER TO FOLKS OR COMPANIES BY NAME NECESSARILY, THERE IS A LOT OF HUMANIZATION THERE. AND THERE IS THIS LINE IN YOUR BOOK YOU SAID, I MOVED TO SAN FRANCISCO AT THE AGE OF 25 FOR A JOB IN TECH AND I LIVED TO WRITE ABOUT IT. WHICH, YOU KNOW, THIS REALLY IS A COMING OF AGE STORY. I RELATE TO IT IN MANY WAYS IN THAT I CAME OF AGE COVERING TECHNOLOGY. I READ AS YOU CAME OF AGE BEHIND THE TECH -- THE DOORS OF A TECH COMPANY AND YOU COULD REALLY SENSE IN THE BOOK YOU'RE STRUGGLING WITH THESE KIND OF -- WHAT YOU WANT TO BE DOING, WHAT YOU THINK YOU SHOULD BE DOING. HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THAT INNER CONFLICT THAT YOU HAD THAT IS SO APPARENT IN THE BOOK WHEN YOU WERE QUOTE ON THE INSIDE? >> ANNA: I THINK THAT THIS HAS A LOT TO DO WITH THE CULTURE INSIDE OF MANY START-UPS IN PARTICULAR. I WOULD IMAGINE THAT IT IS MAYBE A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT AT A LARGER COMPANY LIKE APPLE OR GOOGLE OR EVEN FaceBook. BUT THERE IS THIS SENSE THAT THE WORK THAT YOU'RE DOING NOT ONLY IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT AND CRUCIAL BUT POTENTIALLY THE MOST IMPORTANT AND CRUCIAL WORK ONE COULD BE DOING IN THEIR 20S AND I THINK THAT IS OFTEN, YOU KNOW, SORT OF A SERVICE OF HAVING PEOPLE WORK LONGER HOURS AND WORK HARDER FOR THE COMPANY AND FEEL REALLY COMMITTED BUT IT IS ALSO -- IT FEELS COMMANDERY AND I THINK THAT THAT SENSE OF IMPORTANCE IS OFTEN WHEN A COMPANY IS DOING WELL, IT IS IS A AFFIRMED BY YOUR REVENUE STREAM. YOU SEE MONEY COMING IN. YOU THINK YOU'RE MAKING SOMETHING USEFUL. AND THAT FEELS UNBELIEVABLE. ESPECIALLY AS SOMEONE WHO'S QUITE EARLY IN THEIR CAREER AND SPEAKING FOR MYSELF AT LEAST QUITE INEXPERIENCED. AND SO I THINK THAT THAT CAN BE VERY SEDUCTIVE ALMOST TO THE EXTENT OF OBLITERATING ANY QUESTIONS 1 MIGHT HAVE ABOUT WHETHER THE WORK ITSELF IS ACTUALLY VALUABLE OR ADVANCING A SET OF VALUES OR A CULTURE THAT YOU AGREE WITH. AND, ALSO, THEN THE MORE PERSONAL QUESTION, WHETHER OR NOT IT IS RIGHT FOR YOU. SO I THINK JUST SPEAKING FOR MYSELF, I WAS WORKING AT A DATA ANALYTICS COMPANY. IT WAS BUILDING A TOOL THAT HELPED PEOPLE -- HELPED OTHER APP AND WEBSITE MAKERS SORT OF OPTIMIZE FOR CERTAIN THINGS ON THEIR SITES AND UNDERSTAND USER BEHAVIOR BETTER. AND I SORT OF WANTED TO MOVE AWAY FROM THIS SORT OF VALUE SET OF, YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING SHOULD BE OPTIMIZED AND STREAMLINE AND KIND OF EXPERIENCE SHOULD BE CONTROLLED SO THAT IS JUST SORT OF ONE EXAMPLE FOR ME BUT THAT IS WHY I -- ONE OF THE REASONS I LEFT THAT PARTICULAR COMPANY. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION EXACTLY. >> LAURIE: YEAH. YOU KNOW, I ALSO THINK THAT I'M CURIOUS FOR BOTH OF YOU AS WOMEN, WE HAVE DONE THE WHOLE SILICON VALLEY SEXISM CONVERSATION FOR PROBABLY AS LONG AS I HAVE COVERED TECH WHICH IS A DECADE AND I CAN'T QUA DECIDE IF IT IS GETTING BETTER OR WORSE TRUTHFULLY EVEN THOUGH THERE IS A LOT OF FOLKS TALKING ABOUT IT. ANNA, YOU TACK EL DECLARE BANKRUPTCIED IT IN A CERTAIN WAY AND YOU SAID BEING ONLY WOMAN ON A NON-TECH IN IS COOL TEAM PROVIDING SOFTWARE SUPPORT WAS INTERNALIZED MASSAGE ME TO. WHAT A STATEMENT. IT WAS PRETTY EXTRAORDINARY TO SEE YOUR EXPERIENCE WITHIN THESE COMPANIES. MULTIPLE COMPANIES. AND THE SEXISM IN SILICON VALLEY. WHEN YOU SET OUT TO WRITE THE BOOK, HOW -- I KNOW I STRUGGLED WITH BY THE WAY BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN WRITING A BOOK THAT COMES OUT NEXT YEAR. I STRUGGLED WITH HOW TO GET THAT CONVERSATION ABOUT SEXISM RIGHT. BECAUSE IT IS IN SO MANY DIFFERENT FACETS IN SILICON VALLEY WHERE IT IS PLAYED TO BE SO MUCH MERITOCRACY. HOW -- WHAT WAS YOUR EXPERIENCE BEHIND CLOSED DOORS AND HOW DID YOU WANT TO DESCRIBE IT IN THE BOOK, WHAT KIND OF CONVERSATIONS DID YOU HAVE WHEN THINKING ABOUT HOW YOU WERE GOING TO CHARACTERIZE IT. >> ANNA: SURE. SO I THINK MY EXPERIENCE WITH SEXISM WAS THAT IT WAS PERVASIVE AND OFTEN SUBTLE FOR ME AT LEAST. I THINK IT WAS QUITE UNSUBTLE FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE I WORK WITH AND A LOT OF OTHER WOMEN IN TECH. BUT IN WRITING THE BOOK, THIS GOES FOR WRITING ABOUT SEXISM OR WRITING ABOUT THE SORT OF POLITICAL DIMENSION OF TECHNOLOGY OR OTHER DYNAMICS IN THE OFFICE OR INDUSTRY, I REAL LY WANTED TO STEER US AS FAR AWAY FROM BEING POLITICAL AS FAR AS POSSIBLE AND HOPEFULLY I WAS SUCCESSFUL IN THAT. I WANTED TO JUST EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED TO ME. DETAIL MY EXPERIENCES. AND LET THE READER SORT OF COME TO THEIR OWN CONCLUSIONS BASED ON THE MATERIAL AT HAND. MY OBSERVATIONS, ME FEELINGS ABOUT IT. OBVIOUSLY THERE IS A ABOUT YOU SAC-RELIGIOUS THERE. BUT I THINK -- OBVIOUSLY THERE IS A BIAS THERE. I THINK IT CAN BE HARD TO MOVE INTO SORT OF A MORE DIDACTIC OR POLITICAL MODE AND I THINK FOR ME IT WAS MORE IMPORTANT TO JUST DETAIL HOW I HAD -- HOW I HAD EXPERIENCED IT IN MY ACTUAL LIFE. I THINK THIS THIS IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JOURNALISM OPINION, MEMOIR AND I THINK THAT IS THE SORT OF LIBERTY ONE CAN TAKE WHEN WRITING PERSONAL NONFICTION. >> LAURIE: SARAH, I'M CURIOUS FROM YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE YOU COVERED THE START-UP WORLD FOR A VERY LONG TIME. YOU COVERED THESE COMPANIES. WRITTEN EXTENSIVELY NOW ABOUT INSTAGRAM. WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THE PROBLEM? DO YOU THINK THINGS HAVE GOTTEN BETTER? WITH SEXISM, WITH -- WHEN IT COMES TO REPRESENTATION? >> SARAH: I DON'T THINK REPRESENTATION HAS GOTTEN BETTER. I THINK THE COMPANIES HAVE STARTED TO RELEASE MORE INTERNAL STATISTICS. THEY STARTED TO DO WHAT THEY'RE REQUIRED TO DO IN TERMS OF ADDING WOMEN TO THEIR BOARD. BUT YOU -- YOU STILL GET THE SENSE THAT COMPANIES SAY THAT THEY'RE NOT WILLING TO COMPROMISE THEIR WISH TO HAVE THE BEST OF THE BEST DOING THE JOB AND THEY SIMPLY AREN'T CONSIDERING PEOPLE WHO MAY BE THE BEST OF THE BEST BUT JUST DIDN'T GET TO HAVE THAT KIND OF A NETWORK TO GET IN FRONT OF THE PERSON AND PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS ARE SO KEY HERE. I THINK AS A JOURNALIST, YOU DO COINED OF GET UNDERESTIMATED. PEOPLE ASSUME THAT YOU'LL BE MORE GENTLE BECAUSE YOU ARE A WOMAN OR YOU DON'T KNOW THINGS FROM A TECHNICAL LEVEL BECAUSE YOU'RE A WOMAN AND HOPEFULLY OVER TIME I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PROVE THEM WRONG BUT IT DOES -- IT DOES AS YOU KNOW SOMETIMES GIVE AN ADVANTAGE IN REPORTING BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL TELL YOU THINGS EXPECTING THAT -- KNOWING YOU WOULDN'T DO ANYTHING WITH IT. BUT YOU SAY I'M DOING THIS ON THE RECORD. >> LAURIE: I VERY MUCH RELATE TO THAT RECORDING OVER THE STUFF BACK IN THE DAY. I'VE ALWAYS BEEN A BIT OF A DOUBLE STANDARD, TOO, HOW FOUND ERS SPEAK TO FEMALE JOURNALIST AND MALE JOURNALISTS I'M CURIOUS BECAUSE WE HAVE YOU HERE, SARAH, BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN A BIG WEEK OF NEWS FOR F aceBook AND BY THE WAY, WHAT IS NOT A BIG WEEK OF NEWS FOR FaceBook THESE DAYS BUT I THINK THE WALL STREET JOURNAL RECENTLY OBTAINED AN INTERNAL STUDY CONDUCTED BY FaceBook IT PAINTS A PRETTY BLEAK PICTURE OF THE DETRIMENTAL EFFECTS OF INSTAGRAM ON ITS YOUNGER USERS. THERE IS CONTROVERSY BECAUSE THIS IS NOT MADE PUBLIC AND WHAT WE HAVE ALL BEEN ASKING F aceBook AS JOURNALISTS AND POLITICIANS ARE ASKING IS THIS DETRIMENTAL TO THE MENTAL HEALTH OF OUR CHILDREN TO SOME DEGREE AND WE HAVE NOT REALLY HEARD MUCH FROM FaceBook ON THIS. I'M CURIOUS FOR YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE LATEST FaceBook NEWS WILL IT IMPACT THE BOTTOM LINE? >> SARAH: WELL, THAT LAST QUESTION IS THE KEY, RIGHT? BECAUSE I THINK THAT OVER AND OVER THERE HAS BEEN WAKE UP CALL AFTER WAKE UP CALL ABOUT THIS. FOR EMPLOYEES INTERNALLY AT INSTAGRAM, THEY HAVE KNOWN SINCE AT LEAST 2015 WHEN THEY STARTED STUDYING THE ISSUE THAT ANXIETY FOR TEENS, BODY IMAGE, COMPARING ONE'S SELF TO OTHERS, THAT POPULARITY CONTEST, WAS A PROBLEM. IN FACT IT WAS A PROBLEM SO MUCH FOR THE COMPANY THAT IT AFFECTED GROWTH AND THAT IS WHERE YOU SEE IT IN THE BOTTOM LINE FOR INSTAGRAM. IF PEOPLE ARE TOO ANXIOUS TO POST ON INSTAGRAM, IF THEY'RE TOO WORRIED ABOUT WHAT PEOPLE WILL WORRY ABOUT THEM AND THEY POST LESS, THAT IS BAD FOR BUSINESS. BUT THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO MAKE ENOUGH PRODUCT TWEAK THAT THAT IS NO LONGER A PROBLEM STORIES COPYING STORIES, 24-HOUR DISAPPEARING POST FROM SNAPCHAT WAS SOMETHING THAT REALLY BOOSTED THEM OUT OF THAT GROWTH PROBLEM ANXIETY BUT THEY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT THE HUMAN PROBLEM. AND I THINK IT GOES BACK TO WHAT ANNA WAS SAYING WHEN YOU'RE AT A TECH COMPANY AND SEEING THE METRICS GO UP AND UP AND UP, IT IS EASY TO THINK, WELL, WE'RE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT. IF PEOPLE ARE USING OUR PRODUCT MORE, THEY MUST LIKE IT. THEY MUST FEEL LIKE THEY'RE GETTING VALUE OUT OF IT. THEY MUST FEEL GOOD. AND IT IS REALLY INTERNALLY PEOPLE WHO HAVE STUDIED THIS ON THE RESEARCH TEAM AND WHO SPECIFICALLY WORK ON TEAMS HAS SEEN ACTUALLY THAT IS NOT NECESSARILY TRUE. >> LAURIE: YEAH. YEAH. I -- I'M CURIOUS FOR BOTH OF YOU GUYS WRITING A BOOK IS NO SMALL FEAT. YOU KNOW, IT CERTAINLY FOR YOU I'M CURIOUS, SARAH, HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO DO THE RESEARCH FOR NO FILTER? >> SARAH: WELL, I HAD THIS BACKGROUND COVERING FaceBook FOR MANY YEARS. AND PEOPLE WERE LIKE YOU COULD PROBABLY JUST WRITE THE BOOK ON INSTAGRAM WITHOUT ANY EXTRA RECORDING. NO, YOU COULDN'T. THERE IS SO MUCH WE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE APP AND ABOUT ITS INTERNAL STORY SO SO MUCH IN THE BOOK IS NEW. MY COLLEAGUE AND BOSS BRAD TOLD ME YOU HAVE TO GET LIKE 100 THINGS THAT NOBODY KNOWS AND THEN YOU HAVE A BOOK. SO THAT IS REALLY WHAT I TRIED TO DO THROUGH MY INTERVIEWS AND HAD IN-DEPTH REPORTING AND THAT TOOK SEVERAL MONTHS. OF COURSE I HAD A BOOK DEADLINE SO I THINK I FINISHED IT ALL IN 18 MONTHS. BUT IT DEFINITELY WAS A A BIG LIFT. A LOT OF CONVERSATIONS THANK YOU TO ALL THE PEOPLE WHO TALKED TO ME. >> LAURIE: BY THE WAY IN THE TIME YOU WERE DOING THE BOOK THE INSTAGRAM FOUNDERS QUIT. I CAN IMAGINE YOU KNOW THAT THIS DEFINITELY TURNED THINGS AROUND AGAIN AND YOU PROBABLY HAD TO KEEP DOING TONS OF RESEARCH AND THAT MADE IT EVEN MORE RELEVANT. >> SARAH: ACTUALLY, YEAH. I THINK THAT HELPED PEOPLE UNDERSTAND. THE STORY OF TENSION AT FaceB ook WAS GOING TO COME OUT NO MATTER WHAT AT SOME POINT. SO THEY WOULD -- MIGHT AS WELL TALK TO ME ABOUT IT: >> LAURIE: SURE. ANNA, WHAT ABOUT YOU? THE BOOK HAS SO MANY DETAILS, RIGHT? I'M WONDERING IF YOU JUST KEPT A NOTEPAD WITH YOU AS YOU WORKED AT THESE DIFFERENT START-UPS THROUGHOUT. IT IS -- THERE ARE SO MANY VIVID EDDIE TALES IN IT. WHAT WAS THE HARDEST PART OF WRITING THIS BOOK? >> ANNA: I THINK JUST FIGURING OUT WHAT TO INCLUDE, WHAT STORIES WERE MINE TO TELL. I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF DETAIL IN THE BOOK AND I DIDN'T REALLY TAKE NOTES IN ANY NORMAL WAY BUT I HAD MOVED TO SAN FRANCISCO FROM NEW YORK AND DIDN'T REALLY KNOW ANYONE. THE WAY I KEPT IN TOUCH WITH PEOPLE IS OVER E-MAIL. I DID HAVE THIS SORT OF TROVE OF LONG E-MAILS TO FRIENDS JUST TALKING ABOUT MY LIFE AND TELLING STORIES AND THOSE TURNED OUT TO BE EXTREMELY USEFUL WHEN I STARTED DOING RESEARCH FOR THE BOOK. I ALSO INTERVIEWED FORMER CO-WORKERS AND READ A LOT OF COVERAGE FROM THE TIME THAT I HAD BEEN WORKING IN TECH BUT MAYBE WASN'T NECESSARILY PAYING THAT MUCH ATTENTION TO TECH CRUNCH. SO THAT WAS ALL VERY, VERY USEFUL TO ME. BUT I THINK THAT IT IS ALSO JUST, YOU KNOW, FIGURING OUT WHAT WOULD GO IN. THERE ARE CERTAIN -- THE BOOK IS JUST A FRACTION OF MY EXPERIENCES AND SO THERE WERE CERTAIN THINGS THAT REALLY STAYED WITH ME AND IT SEEMED OBVIOUS THAT THEY SHOULD BE IN THE BOOK BECAUSE THERE ARE THINGS THAT I WAS THINKING ABOUT SIX YEARS LATER, YOU KNOW SO I THINK THAT IS PROBABLY SORT OF QUINTESSENTIAL MEMOIR QUESTION. >> LAURIE: YEAH. I WANT TO GET TO SOME USER QUESTIONS, TOO. ROB A HAS AN INTERESTING QUESTION. THIS IS A NEW NEWS QUESTION. WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THE ELIZABETH HOLMES TRIAL, WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT THE WORLD OF START-UPS, ESPECIALLY THE ONES LED BY WOMEN? EITHER OF YOU. SARAH, IF YOU WANT TO TAKE THIS OR ANNA, EITHER ONE. >> SARAH: I'LL PASS IT TO ANNA >> ANNA: I HAVE TO THINK. THE SECOND PART OF THAT QUESTION IS SORT OF INTERESTING BECAUSE I THINK THAT IT IS ALSO KIND OF INTERESTING WHEN WE TALK ABOUT SEXISM IN TECH. I THINK THAT THERE HAS BEEN AN EMPHASIS ON, YOU KNOW, IS THE COVERAGE OF THERE IS NO SEXIST THE WAY ELIZABETH HOLMES IS BEING PORTRAYED AS SEXIST. THE STORY IS ABOUT THE INCENTIVES THAT PEOPLE IN HER POSITION HAVE AND WHAT LEADS A PERSON TO DO WHAT SHE DID AND YOU KNOW WHAT ARE THE PRESSURES THAT THAT PERSON MIGHT BE UNDER AND I THINK THAT IS SORT OF GENDER AGNOSTIC IN A WAY WHICH IS NOT TO EXCUSE HER BUT TO JUST TO SAY THAT I THINK SOMETIMES THESE CONVERSATIONS CAN SORT OF MISS THE FOREST FOR THE TREES IN THAT YOU KNOW WOULD FaceBook BE BETTER RUN IF THE CEO WAS A WOMAN? I ASSUME NOT. I THINK SARAH, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON THIS BUT I OFTEN FEEL LIKE THE CONVERSATION ABOUT THIS CAN BE A BIT OF A RED HERRING, JUST AS IMPORTANT TO LOOK AT THE ECONOMIC INCENTIVES AND STRUCTURE AND THE BUSINESS MODEL OF THESE COMPANIES AS IT IS WHO IS RUNNING IT. >> SARAH: WHEN IT COMES TO MASSIVE FRAUD, ABSOLUTELY. I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHEN IT COMES TO WOMEN AS FOUNDERS IN SILICON VALLEY AND MAYBE YOU HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT A LOT LAURIE AS YOU HAVE BEEN DOING YOUR OWN RESEARCH, I THINKING THERE IS THIS EXPECTATION THAT THEY ALSO BE LIKE PERSONALITIES THAT PEOPLE CAN FOLLOW WHETHER -- ESPECIALLY ON INSTAGRAM. WE HAVE SEEN THE CEOS OF A WAY, GLOSSIA, ALL OF THESE COMPANIES THAT -- YOU KNOW, THE WING -- THEY RENT THE RUNWAY. THEY GO ON INSTAGRAM AND THEY HAVE THIS SORT OF INFLUENCER-ES C SIDE OF THEIR LEADERSHIP AND WE'RE KIND OF ASKING DOUBLE OF WOMEN IN THOSE ROLES. WE'RE ASKING THEM TO BE LIKE, YOU KNOW, THE EMBODIMENT OF THEIR PRODUCTS. AND I DON'T KNOW THAT WE HAVE ASKED THAT OF MALE LEADERS. WE ASK THEM TO JUST KEEP THE NUMBERS GOING UP. >> LAURIE: YEAH. I'M CURIOUS, SARAH, FOR YOU, YOU TALK A LOT ABOUT INSTAGRAM AT THE BEGINNING, RIGHT, IT WAS A CERTAIN PRODUCT AT THE BEGINNING WHEN KEVIN AND MIKE CREATED IT. AND THEN YOU KNOW THERE WAS THIS CYCLINGY THAT IT WAS PURCHASED BY -- PSYCHE AND THE IDEA THAT MARK ZUCKERBERG WAS JUST GOING TO LEAVE THEM ALONE. HE WAS GOING TO LEAVE THEM ALONE. WHAT IS THAT? HE'S GOING TO LEAVE IT ALONE. THIS WAS THE PUBLIC NARRATIVE. THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN DOWN THE LINE WITH INSTAGRAM AND YOU REALLY GET INTO THIS IN THE BOOK ABOUT THE TENSION THAT CAME ALONG WHEN FaceBook REALLY TRIED TO UTILIZE INSTAGRAM AND WHAT NOT. IT HAD IS A VERY DIFFERENT PRODUCT THAN IT WAS AT THE BEGINNING OF THE ACQUISITION. I'M CURIOUS, YOU KNOW, WHAT DO YOU THINK WE HAVE GOT TO WORRY ABOUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE FUTURE OF INSTAGRAM, WHAT SHOULD WE BE PAYING ATTENTION TO NOW THAT IT IS FULLY INTEGRATED WITH FaceBook AND WE GLOW SOME OF THE CHALLENGES THAT COME ALONG WITH FaceBook? >> SARAH: WELL, I THINK ONE OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS IS THAT IT IS NEVER GOING TO BE THE TOP PRIORITY FOR THE COMPANY. AND INSTAGRAM, I TALKED EARLIER THIS IN THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW IT HAS SUCH A TREMENDOUS CULTURAL IMPACT. AND IF FaceBook IS NOT THINKING ABOUT THIS CULTURAL IMPACT, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A SIMILAR RECKONING WITH INSTAGRAM -- AND I THINK WE ARE STARTING TO HAVE A RECKONING OVER INSTAGRAM IMPACTING NEGATIVE IMPACT WHETHER THAT IS THROUGH THE SPREAD OF VACCINE MISINFORMATION OR EVEN YOU KNOW DRUG TRAFFICKING HUMAN TRAFFICKING, MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, BODY IMAGE ISSUES, ALL OF THOSE THINGS -- THE COMPANY HAS KNOWN ABOUT THEM BUT ABOUT THE STAFFING -- THE WAY IT IS ORGANIZED, FaceBook TAKES PRIORITY. IT IS LIKE THINKING AT FaceB ook IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PROBLEM TO SOLVE ARE THE ONES THAT AFFECT THE MOST PEOPLE. FaceBook IS STILL A BIGGER PRODUCT THAN INSTAGRAM AND STILL A HIGHER REVENUE DRIVING PRODUCT THAN INSTAGRAM. THOUGH INSTAGRAM IS RESPONSIBLE FOR MOST OF THE REVENUE GROWTH. THEY ARE NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING TO FIX THE PROBLEMS UNLESS THEY BECOME PUBLIC CRISE S AND WE HAVE SEEN THAT OVER AND OVER AND OTHER WITH THE -- OVER WITH THE COMPANY. >> LAURIE: THIS IS A QUESTION FROM MELINDA. I LOVE YOU USE THE SAME PLATFORM TO PROMOTE THE BOOK AS THE SUBJECT OF THE BOOK. DID YOU CHANGE THE WAY YOU SAW OR USED INSTAGRAM YOURSELF? >> SARAH: ACTUALLY, YES. BECAUSE INSTAGRAM WAS THE PLACE OF -- YOU KNOW A A JOURNALIST LAURIE WE'RE ALWAYS ON TWITTER. THAT IS JUST WHAT WE DO. I WAS ON FaceBook A LOT BECAUSE I COVERED FaceBook AND INSTAGRAM WAS A PLACE WHERE IT WAS JUST KIND OF PERSONAL. I WOULD POST PICTURES ARE MOI WEDDING. I WOULD POST PICTURES OF MOI VACATION. DURING THIS BOOK PROJECT IT BECAME A PLACE TO REACH OUT TO REALLY INTERESTING CREATORS AROUND THE WORLD, PEOPLE WHO HAVE -- TEENS WHO HAVE REALLY STRONG OPINIONS ABOUT INSTAGRAM PEOPLE WHO COULD HELP DRIVE MY RECORDING BECAUSE THEY COME FROM DIFFERENT WALKS OF INFLUENCER LIFE OR INSTAGRAM ENTREPRENEUR LIFE OR HEAVY USER OR FORMER USER, PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD PROBLEMS WITH THE PRODUCT. SO NOW MY INSTAGRAM IS A PLACE WHERE I TALK TO PEOPLE ABOUT THEIR USE OF INSTAGRAM AND PEOPLE REACH OUT TO ME FROM AROUND THE WORLD AFTER READING THE BOOK AND SAY, YOU KNOW, THIS IS WHAT THEY MAY THINK OF. THIS IS A PROBLEM I'M HAVING OR WHAT I WISH YOU WOULD WRITE ABOUT. THAT HAS BEEN -- THAT HAS BEEN REALLY WORLD OPENING AND I DO APPRECIATE THAT ASPECT OF IT. >> LAURIE: I THINK BOTH OF YOU GUYS TALK IN DIFFERENT WAYS ABOUT THE ATTENTION IN THE ECONOMY AND THE BUSINESS MODEL IN SILICON VALLEY. ANNA, THERE IS A GREAT LINE, KIND OF A TURNING POINT IN THE MEMOIR WHERE YOU DECIDE IT IS -- YOU KNOW, YOU ARE GOING TO LEAVE AT SOME POINT. YOU CAN TELL YOU'RE REALLY BEGINNING TO GET JADED AND YOU SAY, LIFE AND ATTENTION IN THE ECONOMY HAS MADE ME OBLIVIOUS. WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT WHEN YOU WROTE IT? >> ANNA: OH, I THINK I JUST MEANT THAT I WAS VERY AWARE OF A SOCIAL MEDIA LANDSCAPE THAT HAD BEEN CURATED FOR ME AND A LITTLE BIT OBLIVIOUS WHAT WAS HAPPENING OUTSIDE OF THAT. >> LAURIE: WAS THERE A POINT -- WAS THERE A BIG BREAKING POINT FOR YOU WHERE YOU JUST KNEW YOU WANTED TO LEAVE SILICON VALLEY, YOU WERE REALLY DISILLUSIONED WHAT YOU HAD SEEN WAS THERE ANY SPECIFIC EVENT OR A CULMINATION OF A LOT OF THINGS? >> ANNA: I WOULD CALL IT A SLOW BURN. >> LAURIE: JOHN WANTS TO KNOW, ANY IDEA HOW THE CORPORATE CULTURE OF TECH FIRMS IS DIFFERENT IN COUNTRIES OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES. TIKTOK COMES TO MIND. I'M NOT SURE IF THIS IS SOMETHING EITHER OF YOU GUYS -- EITHER OF YOU WANT TO WEIGH IN ON. >> ANNA: I DON'T FEEL PERSONALLY QUALIFIED TO ANSWER THAT. DO YOU, SARAH? >> SARAH: I THINK THAT THE MODEL OF SILICON VALLEY I'LL PUSH THIS FORWARD A LITTLE BIT AND SAY, THESE NEXT FEW YEARS ARE GOING TO BE A BIG EXPERIMENT WITH MORE COMPANIES PIVOTING TO WORK FROM ANYWHERE. WHETHER SILICON VALLEY REMAINS THE EPICENTER OF TECH TALENT. IT IS PROBABLY STILL GOING TO REMAIN THE EPICENTER OF TECH CULTURE BUT I THINK THAT WE WILL START TO SEE THAT CULTURE HOMOGENIZE A LITTLE BIT AS PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO COME WORK FOR THESE COMPANIES FROM ANYWHERE AND AS THE COMPANIES DECIDE NOT TO BUY REAL EXPENSE EVER REAL ESTATE IN SAN FRANCISCO AND THE SURROUNDING AREA AND INSTEAD HIRE PEOPLE WHEREVER THEY LIVE OR WHEREVER THEY WANT TO LIVE. >> LAURIE: YEAH. I THINK AND WE HAVE TO WRAP SOON BUT I THINK WE'RE IN AN EXTRAORDINARY MOMENT WHEN IT COMES TO THIS NEXT ITERATION OF TECHNOLOGY AND THIS NEXT WAVE OF TECH AND YOU GUYS HAVE BOTH WRITTEN PRETTY HISTORICAL BOOKS ON THIS LAST WAVE OF TECHNOLOGY A LOT OF PEOPLE TALK ABOUT WEB FREE. THIS IDEA THAT WE'RE NOW ENTERING A NEW ERA OF TECHNOLOGY WITH THE META VERSE AND CRYPTOCURRENCY AND NOT ASK SPECIFICALLY ABOUT ALL OF THESE THINGS BUT FOR ME SOMEONE WHO HAS COVERED TECHNOLOGY I'M LIKE OH, GOD, WE'RE JUST GOING TO RE REPEAT ALL OF THESE MISTAKING ALL OVER AGAIN IF WE'RE NOT CAREFUL. BUT HOPEFULLY THERE IS THIS IDEA CAN WE BE OPTIMISTIC. TO END IT, I WOULD LIKE TO ASK BOTH OF YOU GUYS, ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THE FUTURE OF TECH AND HUMANITY BECAUSE I THINK TECH HAS BECOME SUCH A BIG PART OF HUMANITY AT THIS POINT. ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC? >> I'M OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THE FACT THAT TECH WILL BECOME MORE AND MORE CONVENIENT. I'M PESSIMISTIC WHAT THAT WILL BE FOR INFORMATION. BECAUSE AS ANNA SAID YOU BECOME A PASSIVE USER OF THESE PRODUCTS. WHEN YOU GOOGLE SOMETHING NOW, WHEN YOU HAVE AN AMAZON ALEXA EVENTUALLY YOU HAVE IT IN YOUR EAR AND YOU ASK A QUESTION YOU'RE GOING TO BE SERVED WHATEVER ANSWER ALGORITHMICALLY MAKES SENSE TO SEND YOU AT THE MOMENT. I REALLY THINK THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO THINK CRITICALLY AS WE MOVE INTO THIS ERA WHERE TECH BECOMES MORE PASSIVE, MORE SERVED UP TO US ON A PLATTER OF WHATEVER THEY THINK WE MIGHT WANT. WHATEVER MIGHT INCREASE, ENGAGEMENT OR REVENUE. WE HAVE TO ACTUALLY USE THESE PRODUCTS MINDFULLY AND THINK, IS THIS REALLY ANSWERING MY QUESTION? WHAT IS MY INTENTION AS I HAVE OPENED UP THIS GAMING SYSTEM OR YOU KNOW WHAT AM I TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH? AND IF I'M JUST TRYING TO WASTE TIME, WHAT DOES THAT -- WHAT DOES THAT DO FOR ME? >> LAURIE: ANNA, WHAT DO YOU THINK? ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC, DO I SEE A FUTURE OF YOU GOING BACK INTO SILICON VALLEY? >> ANNA: FOR A STAR-UP? YOU'LL SEE ME ON WEB III. I'M NOT OPTIMISTIC BUT I AM HOPEFUL. I THINK CONSTITUTIONALLY AND I THINK THAT IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO REMAIN HOPEFUL THAT THINGS CAN CHANGE AND SO I THINK THAT IS SORT OF WHERE I WOULD COME DOWN ON THAT QUESTION. >> LAURIE: GREAT. GREAT. YOU KNOW, I WAS GOING TO SNEAK IN ONE LAST ONE BECAUSE I THINK YOU GUYS ARE GREAT AND I WOULD LOVE TO JUST HAVE ANY DETAILS ON WILL THERE BE ANOTHER BOOK COMING AT ANY POINT SARAH? ARE YOU GOING TO TAKE ON ANOTHER COMPANY AND ANNA, WHAT IS GOING TO BE THE NEXT VIVIDLY WRITTEN BOOK THAT YOU WRITE? ANYTHING OF INTEREST TO YOU GUYS? >> SARAH: DEFINITELY WANT TO WRITE ANOTHER BOOK. I'M WAITING FOR A STORY THAT IS AS UNDERTOLD AS THE INSTAGRAM ONE AND TAKING MY TIME TO DO THE RIGHT ONE BECAUSE YOU KNOW A BOOK PROJECT CAN BOW ALL CONSUMING -- SO I WANT TO BE APPROPRIATELY OBSESSED. >> LAURIE: I THINK TO WRITE A BOOK YOU HAVE TO BE APPROPRIATELY OBSESSED. IT IS NOT AN EASY PROCESS I IMAGINE. FLAN &, HOW ABOUT YOU? >> ANNA: I'M REALLY EXCITED TO EXPLORE SOME OF THE SAME THEMES THAT I WROTE ABOUT IN UNCANNY VALLEY. AMBITION, YOUTH, FAILURE, WEALTH. BUT IN FICTION. SO I THINK THAT THAT WILL PROBABLY BE THE NEXT BOOK LENGTH PROJECT I WORK ON. >> LAURIE: AWESOME. THANK YOU GUYS SO MUCH. I'M SORRY WE'RE OUT OF TIME. I COULD GO ON FOR A LONG TIME. THANK YOU, SARAH AND NANA FOR SHARING YOUR TIME WITH US AND TO THE AUDIENCE FOR ALL OF YOUR QUESTIONS. KEEP KEEP ENJOYING THE NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL. AND WE'LL SEE YOU GUYS SOON. >> GOOD EVENING. HAD A HUGE IMPACT ON ME AS A CHILD. WHEN I CHECKED IT OUT FROM THE PUBLIC LIBRARY, IT WAS THE FIRST TIME I SAW MYSELF IN A BOOK. IT STARTED MY JOURNEY TO OPEN THE WORLD OF BOOKS TO EVERYONE. GOOD EVENING. I'M LIBRARIAN OF CONGRESS, CARLA HAYDEN, AND WELCOME TO THE 2021 LIBRARY OF CONGRESS NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL OPENING NIGHT CELEBRATION. MANY IT'S WONDERFUL TO SEE SO MANY OF OF YOU WHO ARE JOINING US LIVE TONIGHT FROM ACROSS THE NATION. WE WISH WE COULD DO THIS IN PERSON BUT AS THE NATION CONTINUES TO GRAPPLE WITH THE COVID 19 PANDEMIC, WE WANT TO CONTINUE TO BE SAFE. WE HAVE A GREAT EVENT FOR YOU TONIGHT. THE TALENTED WRITER, ACTOR, LITERACY ADVOCATE AND QUIZ MASTER LEVAR BURTON WILL BE JOINING US SHORTLY FOR A CONVERSATION. SO PLEASE GET YOUR QUESTIONS READY FOR HIM. ALSO, WE HAVE A VERY SPECIAL GUEST TONIGHT. THE THEME FOR THIS YEAR'S BOOK FESTIVAL IS OPEN A BOOK. OPEN A WORLD. AND WE HAVE AN AMAZING LINE-UP OF MORE THAN 100 DIVERSE AUTHOR S FOR THIS 10 DAY FESTIVAL. THERE IS AN AUTHOR FOR EVERYONE CHILDREN, TEENS AND ADULTS. WE HAVE MICHAEL J FOX, JANE L:, IS BELL WILKINSON, JASON REYNOLDS, DIANE -- TRICIA YEAR WOOD AND MANY MORE. ALSO THIS YEAR THE FESTIVAL IS ON MULTIPLE PLATFORMS. SO STARTING TODAY, YOU CAN CREATE YOUR OWN FESTIVAL EXPERIENCE. YOU CAN WATCH LIVE VIRTUAL EVENTS LIKE THIS ONE, WATCH VIDEOS ON DEMAND, LISTEN TO PODCASTS FROM NPR, ATTEND A TICKETED IN-PERSON EVENT AND WATCH THE SPECIAL PBS BROADCAST OPEN A BOOK, OPEN A WORLD. HERE IS A PREVIEW. >> HI, EVERYBODY. I'M LEVAR BURTON AND THIS IS OPEN A BOOK, OPEN THE WORLD: LIBRARY OF CONGRESS NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL. >> WHEN I TRY TO CREATE A WORK OF FICTION ONE OF MY BIG AIMS IS TO CREATE AN ENTIRE WORLD. >> I THINK THAT KIND OF FICTION AL WORLD WE SEE CHARACTERS EXPRESSION THEIR THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS THAT TO ME IS OPENING UP THE WORLD. >> I BELIEVE THAT FICTION IS THE CLOSEST THAT ANY OF US WOULD GET TO BEING ANOTHER PERSON. >> THAT IS GOOD FOR ANYBODY BUT IT ALSO PARTICULARLY IMPORTANT I THINK FOR WRITERS BECAUSE THAT IS ONE OF OUR MOST IMPORTANT TOOLS IS THE CAPACITY TO HAVE EMPATHY. >> I THINK THERE ARE MANY PLACE S I MET FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME THROUGH A BOOK. >> FOR ME, BOOKS WERE A WAY OF LEARNING ABOUT THE WORLD AND EXPERIENCING THINGS I HAD NEVER EXPERIENCED BEFORE. >> BOOKS HAVE ALWAYS JUST SHOWN ME JUST HOW BIG AND HOW SMALL THE WORLD IS. >> A GOOD BOOK CAN TAKE YOU ON A JOURNEY. AFTER THE LAST YEAR, WE ARE ALL READY TO PLOT A NEW COURSE, BOOKS CAN BE AN AMAZING COMPASS >> AN ADDICTION TO READING HAS BEEN A KEY SECRET OF MY SUCCESS >> IT WAS LITERATURE THAT OPEN ED UP SO MANY PATHWAYS, SO MANY POSSIBILITIES FOR ME. >> I READ BOOKS SO I COULD DISCOVER NEW WORLDS. IN THOSE BOOKS -- >> I HAD BOOKS I DIDN'T THINK LIKE THIS ROOM I DON'T THINK I HAD BOOKS IN BUT I HAD 360 BECOMES IN THIS ROOM. >> IT IS ENLARGING YOUR HORIZON BOOKS ARE EVERYTHING. >> IT GIVES ME MORE OF A COMPLEX UNDERSTANDING OF HUMANITY WHICH I THINK IS THE POWER OF STORIES THAT THEY'RE ABLE TO SEE OURSELVES ALL MANNER OF DIFFERENT CHARACTER. >> AND THAT I THINK IS WHAT I ENJOY FROM A GREAT BOOK. >> JOIN ME AS SOME OF OUR NATION'S LEADING LITERARY VOICES BRING US A SENSE OF RENEWAL. DISCUSS THEIR NEWEST WORK AND OPEN UP A WHOLE NEW WORLD OF POSSIBILITIES. >> CARLA: TO START YOUR BOOK FESTIVAL JOURNEY VISIT THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS WEBSITE AT LOC.GOV/BOOKFEST NONE OF THIS WOULD BE POSSIBLE WITHOUT THE GENEROUS SUPPORT FROM OUR DONORS. WE COULDN'T DO THIS FESTIVAL WITHOUT THEM. OUR FESTIVAL CO-CHAIR, DAVID M. , THE JAMES MADISON COUNCIL, THE "WASHINGTON POST," THE INSTITUTE OF MUSEUM AND LIBRARY SERVICES. NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR THE ARTS . NATIONAL ENDOWMENT FOR THE HUMANITIES. NPR, THE NEW REPUBLIC. CAPITAL GROUP. JOSEPH AND LYNN AND THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS FEDERAL CREDIT UNION, AND TIM AND DIANE -- WE APPRECIATE ALL OF YOU. NOW PLEASE WELCOME THE CO-CHAIR OF THE NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL, MR. DAVID -- WHO WILL ANNOUNCE THE WINNERS OF THE 2021 LITERACY AWARDS AND INTRODUCE A VERY SPECIAL GUEST. DAVID. >> THANK YOU, DR. HAYDEN. IT IS A PLEASURE TO JOIN YOU AND OTHERS AROUND THE NATION. IT IS MY HONOR TO SERVE AS CO- CHAIR OF THE NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL. NOT ONLY A CELEBRATION OF BOOKS AND READING BUT ALSO OF LITERACY ITSELF. LIFE IN THESE DEMANDING TIMES CAN BE VERY DIFFICULT FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NEVER LEARNED TO READ. HERE AT THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS IT IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF OUR MISSION TO COMBAT ILLITERACY AND PROMOTE A CULTURE OF READING. SINCE 2013, I HAVE SUPPORTED THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS LITERACY AWARDS TO HONOR HONOR THE OUTSTANDING WORK IN THE FIELD OF LITERACY AND TO INSPIRE ORGANIZATIONS TO CONTINUE WORKING FOR THIS NOBLE CAUSE. THE AWARDS ARE RECOGNIZE THE NEED FOR THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY TO UNITE IN ACHIEVING UNIVERSAL LITERACY. HERE ARE THE TOP WINNERS OF THE 2021 LIBRARY OF CONGRESS LITERACY AWARDS. THE WINNER OF THE 2021 INTERNATIONAL PRIZE IS THE LUMINOUS FUND OF BOSTON, MASSACHUSETTS. THE LUMINOUS FUND PROVIDES TRANSFORMATIVE EDUCATION PROGRAMS TO THOUSANDS OF OUT OF SCHOOL CHILDREN HELPING THEM TO CATCH UP TO GRADE LEVEL, REINTEGRATE INTO LOCAL SCHOOLS AND PREPARE FOR LIFELONG LEARNING. THE WINNER OF THE 2021 AMERICAN PRIZE IS THE PARENTS AS TEACHERS NATIONAL CENTER OF ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI. PARENTS AS TEACHERS BUILDS STRONG COMMUNITIES, THRIVING FAMILIES AND CHILDREN WHO ARE HEALTHY, SAFE AND READY TO LEARN BY MATCHING PARENTS AND CAREGIVERS WITH TRAINED PROFESSIONALS WHO MAKE REGULAR PERSONAL HOME VISITS DURING A CHILD'S EARLIEST YEARS IN LIFE FROM PRENATAL THROUGH KINDERGARTEN. AND FINALLY, THE TOP PRIZE, THE 2021 DAVID M.RUBENSTEIN PRIZE GOES TO DOLLY PARTON IMAGINATION LIBRARY IN PIGEONHOLE, TENNESSEE. IT IS INITIATIVE OF DOLLYWOOD FOUNDED BY DOLLY PARTON IN 1998 IMAGINATION LIBRARY IS DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE LIVES OF CHILDREN THROUGH INSPIRING A LOVE OF READING BY PROVIDING FREE OF CHARGE BOOKS TO FAMILIES THROUGH LOCAL COMMUNITY PARTNERSHIPS. IN 2018, DOLLY PARTON WAS HERE AT THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS TO DEDICATE THE 100 MILLIONTH BACK OF IMAGINARY LIBRARY TO THE LOC COLLECTION. TO DATE, DOLLY'S LIBRARY HAS GIVEN AWAY MORE THAN 165 MILLION BOOKS WORLDWIDE. SO IT IS MY HONOR TO WELCOME GLOBAL SUPERSTAR SONGWRITER AND PHILANTHROPIST, THE ONE AND ONLY, DOLLY PARTON. >> DOLLY: HELLO, EVERYONE. THIS IS DOLLILY. I'M SO HONORED TO ACCEPT THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS LITERACY AWARD OF DAVID M.RUBENSTEIN THAT IS DONATED TO MY IMAGINATION LIBRARY. ISN'T THAT GREAT? THEY SAY GREAT MINDS THINK ALIKE. GREAT LIBRARIES THINK ALIKE AS WELL OF THE SERIOUSLY, THIS AWARD MEANS A LOT TO ME BECAUSE I STARTED THIS PROGRAM IN HONOR OF MY DADDY WHO NEVER LEARNED TO READ AND WRITE AND I KNOW HE IS SMILING FROM ABOVE ON THIS ONE. WE'VE REALLY DREAMED BIG AND I AM SO HAPPY THAT THE IMAGINATION LIBRARY HAS INSPIRED MILLIONS OF FAMILIES TO READ TOGETHER AND HELP LAY THE FOUNDATION FOR SUCCESS IN SCHOOLS AND BEYOND. BUT WE'RE NOT DONE YET. SO WITH OUR TEAM AND OVER 2000 COMMUNITY PARTNERS PARTNERS IN FIVE COUNTRIES WHO HAVE HELPED US GIFT MORE THAN 170 MILLION BOOKS TO CHILDREN AND FAMILIES, I AM THRILLED TO SHARE THIS WONDERFUL AWARD. YOU KEEP READING. AND KEEP DREAMING AND REMEMBER, THAT I WILL ALWAYS LOVE YOU. >> CARLA: THANK YOU, DOLLY. WE LOVE YOU, TOO, FOR YOUR SUPPORT OF LITERACY AND READING IT IS SUCH AN INSPIRATION. AND CONGRATULATIONS TO ALL 32021 LIBRARY OF CONGRESS LITERACY AWARD WINNERS AND THE 14 BEST PRACTICE HONOREES. YOU CAN GET MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE AWARDS BY VISITING LO C.GOV. BEFORE I INTRODUCE OUR SPECIAL GUEST TONIGHT WE HAVE AN ANNOUNCEMENT FOR YOU. FOR THE PAST TWO YEARS YOU KNOW WE HAVE MISSED AND IN-PERSON NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL SO I'M EXCITED TO ANNOUNCE THAT WE HAVE SCHEDULED A DATE FOR THE 2022 NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL BACK AT THE WASHINGTON CONVENTION CENTER HERE IN DC. THE IT WILL BELABOR DAY WEEKEND 2022. WE'RE EXCITED TO SEE YOUR SMILING FACES AGAIN AND IF YOU DON'T LIVE IN THE DC AREA, DON'T WORRY. WE WILL CONTINUE TO MAKE THIS A VIRTUAL FESTIVAL SO EVERYONE ACROSS THE COUNTRY CAN ENJOY THIS LITERARY EVENT. WE CAN'T WAIT TO SEE YOU BOTH IN PERSON AND ONLINE. SO MARK YOUR CALENDAR. LABOR DAY WEEKEND. 2022. NOW, TO OUR SPECIAL GUEST. HE HAS BEEN PART OF OUR LIVES FOR DECADES. WE READ WITH HIM ON READING RAINBOW. WATCHED HIM IN ROOTS ONE OF THE MOST VIEWED MINI SERIES OF ALL TIME. EXPLORED THE GAL SEE WITH HIM IN STAR TREK THE NEXT GENERATION AND MOST RECENTLY WATCHED HIM HOST AMERICA'S FAVORITE QUIZ SHOW JEOPARDY E AND NOW HE'S THE HOST OF THE NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL, PBS SPECIAL, OPEN A WORLD, OPEN THE BOOK. IN FACT, IT'S OPEN A BOOK, OPEN A WORLD. SO JOINING US FROM LOS ANGELES, PLEASE WELCOME THE MULTI TALENTED MR. LEVAR BURTON. >> LEVAR: GOOD AFTERNOON, DR. HAYDEN. >> CARLA: HOW ARE YOU? AND THANK YOU SO MUCH. >> LEVAR: THANK YOU FOR THE INVITATION. OPEN A BOOK, OPEN A WORLD. >> CARLA: OPEN A BOOK I TWISTED IT UP I GOT SO EXCITED. FOR ME, YOU COULD IMAGINE AND YOU WITH YOUR -- WHAT BOOK I HAVE TO START BY ASKING YOU YOU , WAS THERE A PARTICULAR BOOK THAT OPENED A WORLD TO YOU >> LEVAR: YOU KNOW, DR. HAYDEN , WHEN I WAS A KID, THE BOOK I READ THAT REALLY DELIVERED THE EXPERIENCE OF READING TO ME WAS CAPTAIN'S COURAGEOUS, RICHARD KIPPLING. AND YOU REMEMBER UPON FINISHING THE BOOK I CLOSED IT AND I WAS MET WITH THIS PROFOUND SENSE OF SADNESS. I DIDN'T RECOGNIZE IT THEN. I DO NOW AS A MINER DEPRESSION AND I WAS DEPRESSED BECAUSE I WAS LEAVING THE WORLD THAT I HAD BECOME SO ATTACHED TO AND CHARACTERS THAT I HAD REALLY GROWNEN CLOSE TO IN A VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. SO TODAY, WHEN I AM READING A PARTICULARLY GOOD PIECE OF FICTION, I CONTINUOUSLY SLOW DOWN THE LAST CHAPTER OR TWO, TO SORT OF FORESTALL THAT INEVITABLE SENSE OF SADNESS THAT WILL DESCEND AND TAKE HOLD WHEN THE TALE IS PARTICULARLY ENGROSSING AND ENGAGING. >> CARLA: YOU ARE A TRUE READ ER AND WE CAN SEE SOME OF THE BOOKS BEHIND YOU. WHAT STARTED YOU ON THIS PATH, OF LOVING READING AND BEING SUCH A PERSON WHO JUST GETS INTO BOOKS AND THE WHOLE WORLD OF READING. >> LEVAR: MY IDENTITY AS A READER, DR. HAYDEN WAS FORGED BY MY MOTHER, ERMAGENE CHRISTIAN. WHENEVER I HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK MY MOTHER'S NAME IN PUBLIC I DO. I CONSIDER I'M THE MAN THAT I AM BECAUSE SHE WAS THE WOMAN THAT SHE WAS. MY MOM WAS AN ENGLISH TEACHER BY PROFESSION. HER SECOND CAREER WAS IN SOCIAL WORK. I GREW UP IN A HOUSE WHERE READING WAS -- HOW DO YOU SAY IT -- WAS MANDATORY. I LIKE TO SAY THAT IN ERMA GENE 'S HOUSE YOU READ A BOOK OR GOT HIT IN THE HEAD WITH ONE BUT YOU WERE GOING TO HAVE AN EXPERIENCE WITH THE WRITTEN WORD. >> CARLA: WOW. WAS THAT PART OF YOU BECOMING SUCH ADVOCATE FOR LITERACY FOR READING RAINBOW TO YOUR OWN BOOK CLUB NOW? YOU ARE REALLY ON THE FOREFRONT >> LEVAR: MY MOTHER NOT ONLY READ TO US WHEN WE WERE KIDS. YOU HAVE TWO SISTERS. SHE READ IN FRONT OF US. SO IT WAS THAT ALL IMPORTANT MODELING THAT REALLY CEMENTED THE BEHAVIOR. I GREW UP KNOWING THAT READING WAS AS ESSENTIAL TO THE HUMAN BEING AS IS BREATHING, RIGHT? AND AND SO IT REALLY HAS ENTREPRENEUR IN LARGE MEASURES SHAPED MY LIFE AND MOO -- HAS IN LARGE MEASURES SHAPED MY LIFE AND MY CAREER. WINNING NOVELS AND STAR TREK THE ALLEGORICAL SKIPS THAT GENE RODDINGBERRY WROTE IN THE NEXT GENERATION THEY SAY IN MY BUSINESS. IT ALL BEGINS ON THE PAGE. IT AIN'T ON THE PAGE. IT AIN'T ON THE STAGE. SO LITERATURE AND THE WRITTEN WORD ARE CRITICALLY IMPORTANT TO WHAT WITH I DO, STORYTELLING , AND THE WAIT I DO WHAT IT IS I DO. >> CARLA: AND SO IS -- AS A LIBRARIAN I HAVE TO ASK ABOUT THE WORLD OF LIBRARIES. BECAUSE YOU HAD TO FEED ALL THAT LOVE OF READING. DID LIBRARIES PAY PLAY ANY PART >> LEVAR: ABSOLUTELY. I GREW UP IN SACRAMENTO, CALIFORNIA. WE CALL IT RIVER CITY. DURING THE SUMMERS I GREW UP IN SOUTH SACRAMENTO WHICH DIDN'T HAVE ITS OWN BRANCH LIBRARY. IT DOES NOW. THE BOOKMOBILE WAS THE LIFELINE FOR ME DURING THE SUMMERS WHEN I WAS A KID GROWING UP IN SAC TOWN. GROWING UP WITH THE BOOKMOBILE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD WAS CAUSE FOR CELEBRATION AT LEAST IN MY HOUSEHOLD IT WAS. I SPENT AN AWFUL LOT OF TIME DURING THE SUMMERS ON MY BED READING, RADIO AM RADIO TUNES TO SAN FRANCISCO GIANTS BASEBALL GAMES AND JUST DISAPPEARING IN TO WORLDS THAT I COULD NOT IMAGINE. IT WAS -- I MISS THOSE DAYS TREMENDOUSLY WHEN I HAD INFINITE AMOUNT OF TIME TO READ SIMPLY FOR PLEASURE. >> CARLA: SO THE BOOKMOBILE WAS SORT OF LIKE THE ICE CREAM TRUCK WHEN YOU COULD TELL IT WAS COMING? >> LEVAR: AS GOOD AS. AS GOOD AS THE ICE CREAM TRUCK IN MY OPINION. AS GOOD AS. >> CARLA: NOW, YOU STILL I MENTIONED YOUR BOOK CLUB. YOU HAVE A BOOK CLUB WHERE YOU SELECT THE BOOKS I HAVE BEEN TOLD. >> LEVAR: I DO. I SELECT EVERY -- EVERY THING THAT WE READ IN THE LEVAR BOOK CLUB ON FABLE I HAND PICK. WE BEGAN THIS JOURNEY BACK IN MAY WITH GO TELL IT ON THE MOUNTAIN BY JAMES BALDWIN. OUR SECOND SELECTION WAS PARABLE OF THE SOLAR BY OCTAVIA BUTLER. I'M A HUGE FAN OF SPECULATIVE FICTION. SHE IS THE BEGINNING AND THE END OF CANON FOR ME. WE FOLLOWED THAT UP BUT WE WENT BACK TO BALDWIN WITH THE FIRE THIS TIME VOLUME OF ESSAYS AND POEMS THAT WERE EDITED BY THE GREAT JAZMIN WARD AND WE JUST ANNOUNCED THIS WEEK. WE ARE ON DEACON KING KONG, JAMES McBRIDE. THAT IS OUR FOURTH SELECTION IN THE >> LEVAR: BOOK CLUB. YOU CAN JOIN US AT FABLE.CO/ LEVAR. I HAVE NEVER HAD A BOOK CLUB. THIS COMPANY GIVES ME A PRESENT IN THE VIRTUAL WORLD RIGHT THERE ALONG WITH THE READERS AND THE CLUB. I'M HAVING A GREAT TIME. COME ON OVER AND JOIN US. FABLE.CO/LEVAR. >> CARLA: YOU MENTIONED JAMES BALDWIN TWICE. SO I TAKE IT YOU'RE PRETTY BIG JAMES BALDWIN FAN. >> LEVAR: I AM, INDEED. HE IS THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA WHERE LETTERS ARE CONCERNED. THE MAN WAS NOT ONLY A BRILLIANT WRITER, HE WAS A BRILLIANT THINKER. AND WHEN BALDWIN WROTE THOSE MANY YEARS AGO DECADES NOW, IT IS ASTONISHING TO ME THAT HE WAS SPEAKING DIRECTLY TO ME. AT LEAST THAT IS HOW I FEEL WHEN HE READS. SPEAKS DIRECTLY TO ME ABOUT THE WORLD IN WHICH I LIVE IN THIS NOW MOMENT AND SO TO HAVE A VOICE THAT IS AS CLEAR AND AS PROPHETIC AS IS HIS, THAT IS COUCHED IN SUCH BEAUTIFUL LYRICAL PROBES, HIS THOUGHTS AND IDEAS CONTINUED TO INSPIRE ME AND MILLIONS AROUND THE WORLD. HE REALLY, HE REALLY IS SINGULAR IN MY VIEW. HE OCCUPIES A PLACE IN THE PANTHEON ALL -- ALL THAT IS ALL HIS OWN. >> CARLA: AND YOU MENTIONED ONE OF MY FAVORITES OCTAVIA BUTLER. AND WHAT IS SO DIFFERENT IN ONE WAY BUT ALSO VERY COMPELLING. >> LEVAR: FROM HER OWN PARTICULAR AREA OF INTEREST AND EXPERTISE, SPECULATIVE FICTION IMAGINING THE FUTURE, SHE, TOO, HAS BEEN OPPRESSIONED IN HER PREDICTIONS ABOUT THE WORLD THAT WE LIVE IN RIGHT NOW. AND I THINK THAT IS IN FACT PART OF THE GLORY OF LITERATURE AND HAVING A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE WRITTEN WORD TO BE ABLE TO ENHANCE OUR OWN UNDERSTANDING AND REFLECTION OF OUR WORLD IN ADDITION TO STIMULATING AND EXERCISING OUR IMAGINATION MUSCLE. THE IMAGINATION IS THE SUPER POWER OF HUMAN BEINGS AND IT IS THROUGH OUR ENGAGEMENT WITH LITERATURE, MOSTLY FICTIONAL LITERATURE THAT WE REALLY EXERCISE THAT IMAGINATION MUSCLE. I WOULD SAY ONE OF THE REASONS THAT I CONTINUE TO READ TO THE GENERATION OF ADULTS NOW WHO GREW UP ON READING RAMBO THROUGH MY BOOK CLUB AND MY PODCAST, >> LEVAR: LEVAR READS, I FIND A RESPONSIBILITY TO HELP THIS NEXT GENERATION DEVELOP THEIR IMAGINATIONS BECAUSE THE PROBLEM THAT MY GENERATION IS ING LEAVING THEM ARE MYRIAD AND I THINK CHIEF AMONG THE TOOLS THAT THEY WILL RELY UPON TO SOLVE THESE VERY COMPLEX PROBLEMS GOING FORWARD IS THEIR IMAGINATIONS AND SO A HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP WITH AN PAGE NEAR WORLD WITH OUR IMAGINE NATIVE SELF I THINK IT IS CRITICAL TO THE HUMAN BEING, TO THE SUCCESSFUL HUMAN BEING IN ANY CASE. IT ISN'T POSSIBLE REALLY TO REALLY REACH YOUR FULL POTENTIAL IN LIFE UNLESS YOU'RE LITERATE IN AT LEAST ONE LANGUAGE BECAUSE IF YOU CAN READ, RIGHT, THEN YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE A LEARNER FOR LIFE. THAT IS WHAT WE TRY TO DO ON READING RAINBOW. TAKE A CHILD WHO COULD READ AND TURN THEM INTO A READER FOR LIFE. THAT IS WHERE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BECOME A LIFELONG LEARNER REALLY EXISTS IN THAT REALM OF BEING A READER. IDENTIFY. SELF-IDENTIFY AS A READER. >> CARLA: NOW, BACK TO THE PODCAST THOUGH WITH YOUR PODCAST, YOU SELECT SHORT STORIES. SO -- >> LEVAR: YES, MA'AM. >> CARLA: WHAT IS THE STRATEGY WITH THAT. >> LEVAR: WHAT IS THE DEAL THERE? >> CARLA: YEAH. >> LEVAR: WELL, I -- I HAVE A LOT OF HELP WITH THE PODCAST AND FINDING THE RIGHT STORY. IT IS A PODCAST THAT FEATURES SHORT FICTION. IN EVERY EPISODE I READ A DIFFERENT PIECE OF HISTORIC FICTION THAT I HAND PICK. THERE IS AIS PROCESS WE GO THROUGH, MY PRODUCER JULIA SMITH SHE IS THE BEST IN THE BUSINESS AND WE HAVE A RESEARCH ASSISTANT LAKISHA LEWIS AND THEY SOURCE THE STORIES AND THEY GIVE THE FIRST PASS. THEY READ THEM FIRST. THOSE THAT THEY FEEL ARE CANDIDATES, THEY FUNNEL TO ME AND I READ THEM AND MAKE THE FINAL DETERMINATION. >> CARLA: I KNOW YOU'RE A TRUE READER BUT HOW DO YOU FIND THE TIME? I KNOW DURING THIS PAST YEARBOOKS PROBABLY MEANT A LOT TO YOU DURING THE PANDEMIC BUT YOU READ A LOT. >> LEVAR: ABSOLUTELY. YEAH. IT IS A HABIT. RIGHT? RIGHT NOW MOST OF MY -- IN FACT FOR THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS WE'RE IN -- I'M RECORDING. MANY I HAVE BEGUN RECORDING EPISODES FOR THE 10TH SEASON OF LEVAR BURTON READS. WE HAVE OVER 100 EPISODES OF CONTENT OF SHORT STORIES AND I INTRODUCE THE BOOK AND THE AUTHOR AND THEN READ THE STORY AND THEN I DO A LITTLE POST SCRIPT AT THE END TALK A BIT ABOUT WHAT OR HOW THE AUTHOR OR THE AUTHORS' STORY IMPACTED ME. I LOVE IT. READING ALOUD IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE WAYS OF STORYTELLING. TAKING AN AUTHOR'S WORDS AND INTERPRETING THEM FOR AN AUDIENCE. I JUST LOVE IT. DOING ALL THE VOICES. AND YOU KNOW PLAYING THE DIFFERENT CHARACTERS. IT REALLY IS JOYFUL. JOYFUL NOISE FOR ME. >> CARLA: NOW, YOU ALSO MENTIONED IN TERMS OF ROOTS AND THAT IS A BOOK THAT WAS MADE INTO -- INTO ANOTHER MEDIUM. DO YOU FIND THAT THAT IS A DIFFICULT THING TO DO OR DO YOU ENJOY SEEING BOOKS BEING MADE INTO FILM OR -- >> LEVAR: I ENJOY IT WHEN THEY'RE DONE WELL. THEY'RE NOT ALWAYS DONE WELL THE ADAPTATIONS. BUT WHEN THEY'RE DONE RIGHT, I BELIEVE THAT THEY REAL REALLY CAN ENHANCE THE AUDIENCE'S APPRECIATION OF A STORY. AND STORYTELLING IN GENERAL. I THINK ROOTS WAS INCREDIBLY WELL DONE. BOTH THE ORIGINAL AND THE REVISITING OF THE STORY. AND I -- I WAS ONE OF THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS ON THE RE TELLING OF ROOTS. BECAUSE I FELT IT IMPORTANT TO KEEP THIS STORY ALIVE IN AMERICAN CULTURE. THE ORIGINAL MINI SERIES AIRED BACK IN 19 SEVENTY SEVEN, 45 YEARS AGO. SO THERE IS A WHOLE GENERATION OF AMERICANS WHO HAD NOT SEEN THE ORIGINAL WHO I BELIEVE REAL LY DO NEED TO HAVE THAT AS A PART OF THEIR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AN AMERICAN. >> CARLA: AND SO WHEN THAT TRANSITION FROM BOOK TO FILM IS NOT SUCCESSFUL, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY OR HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE BARRIERS. -- CHARACTERIZE FAILURE? >> LEVAR: FAILURE IS FAILURE BUT FAILURE CAN REALLY BE A TEACHER AND INFORMATIVE. I HAVE SEEN SOME ADAPTATIONS AND I THINK THAT WAS JUST A BAD IDEA FROM THE BEGINNING AND I DON'T KNOW WHY THEY DIDN'T SEE THAT. BUT THEN AGAIN, YOU KNOW, BOOKS AND MOVIES LIKE MOST THINGS SUBJECTIVE ARE A MATTER OF TASTE. AND SO NOT EVERYONE FEELS THE SAME WAY ABOUT EVERYTHING. AND THAT'S THE BEAUTY OF LIVING IN A WORLD OF VARIETY LIKE WE DO. >> CARLA: SO DID BOOKS AND READING HELP YOU DURING THIS PAST YEAR AND A HALF? >> LEVAR: THEY DID TREMENDOUS LY DR. HAYDEN. AT THE BEGINNING OF THE PANDEMIC I MADE A DECISION OF CHOICE TO TRY AND CONTRIBUTE TO THE MOMENT BY READING OVER THE INTERNET AND SO I DID FOR A COUPLE OF MONTHS. I DID THREE SESSIONS A WEEK ON MONDAY MORNINGS I WOULD READ BOOKS TO CHILDREN. ON WEDNESDAY AFTERNOONS I READ WIDE SELECTIONS MOSTLY FROM MY 'FRIEND JASON REYNOLDS AND ON FRIDAY NIGHTS I READ TO ADULTS. READ SHORT STORIES TO ADULTS. JUST IN A TIME WHEN, YOU KNOW, WE WERE LOCKED DOWN AND AT HOME , IT FELT LIKE SOMETHING THAT I COULD DO TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE MOMENT THAT WE WERE ALL SHARING. >> CARLA: I HAD TO GIVE A LITTLE SHOUT OUT TO JASON REYNOLDS BECAUSE HE'S THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS'S AMBASSADOR FOR YOUNG PEOPLE'S LITERATURE AND HE'S BEEN SO ACTIVE JUST LIKE YOU DURING THIS TIME. SO THAT PARTNERSHIP WITH YOU TWO I'M SURE WAS VERY, VERY STRONG. AND THERE'S -- >> LEVAR: ONE OF MY HEROES. >> CARLA: WHO ALSO FOUND BOOKS COMFORTING AND PROVIDED CONTEXT FOR A LOT OF THE ISSUES JUST GENERAL ISSUES THAT WERE GOING ON. THAT -- DID YOU GO TO BALDWIN FOR SOME OF THAT? >> LEVAR: BALDWIN WAS A REAL BOMB. CERTAINLY DURING THE -- THE PROTESTS AND DEMONSTRATIONS FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE IN AMERICA. BALDWIN, HE SPOKE DIRECTLY ABOUT THIS MOMENT AND IT IS AMAZING TO ME THAT SOME OF THE DYNAMICS THAT BALDWIN WROTE ABOUT AND SPOKE ABOUT SO ELOQUENTLY ARE UNCHANGED VIRTUALLY UNCHANGED ALL OF THESE YEARS LATER AND IT REALLY IS INDICATIVE OF THE NEED AND NECESSITY FOR AMERICA TO FINALLY TURN AND FACE OUR OURSELVES, FACE THE REAL STORY, NOT THE FICTIONALIZED VERSION OF WHO WE ARE AS A NATION BUT JUST TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT WHO WE ARE AND HOW WE ZERO GOT HERE SO THAT'S, YOU KNOW, WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO LOOK ONE ANOTHER IN THE EYE FROM A PLACE OF HONESTY AND ONLY THEN I BELIEVE IS RECONCILIATION A POSSIBILITY FOR THIS NATION. WE HAVE TO BE HONEST ABOUT WHO WE ARE AS A NATION. THE CHOICES THAT WE MADE TO GET TO WHERE WE ARE. YOU GOT TO TAKE THE GOOD AND THE BAD TOGETHER. AND WHEN WE DO THAT, I BELIEVE THAT WE WILL BE MUCH BETTER OFF AND MUCH STRONGER AS A NATION WHEN WE CAN OWN UP TO ALL OF OUR HISTORY. NOT JUST THE HISTORY THAT MAKES US FEEL GOOD ABOUT OURSELVES. >> CARLA: AND THEN ANOTHER AUTHOR YOU SELECTED FOR YOUR BOOK ABOUT JAMES McBRIDE, WE SEE THE HISTORY AND FICTION AND EN HIS MUSICAL BACKGROUND COMES IN. >> LEVAR: YEAH. THE MAN IS SO REMARKABLELY TALENTED. IT MAKES ME WANT TO LAUGH HE IS THAT GOOD AT SO MANY THINGS. I THINK THAT MY INTRODUCTION TO JAMES McBRIDE WAS THROUGH THE COLOR OF WATER WHICH IS SORT OF AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY GRAPHICAL LOOK AT HIS LIFE AND THE THINGS THING THAT REALLY JUMPS OUT TO ME ABOUT JAMES' WRITING IS THE DEEP SENSE OF HUMANITY THAT HE INFUSES ALL OF HIS CHARACTERS WITH IN THE STORIES HE WRITES. AND THAT HUMANITY SPRINGS DIRECTLY FROM HIM. HE IS ONE OF THE MOST PRESENT EMPATHETIC COMPASSIONATE PEOPLE I HAVE EVER MET AND THOSE QUALITIES JUST DRIP OFF THE PAGE OF HIS NOVEL. >> CARLA: AND YOU HAVE INSPIRED SO MANY YOUNG PEOPLE WITH READING RAINBOW AND YOU MENTION THAT EARLIER. WHAT MESSAGE WOULD YOU SAY -- WOULD YOU GIVE TO THEM NOW? >> LEVAR: UM, WELL, TO THE GENERATION OF ADULTS NOW WHO GREW UP ON THE SHOW, I'M STILL THERE AS A PART OF YOUR LIVES INTRODUCING YOU TO NEW AUTHORS THROUGH EITHER THE BOOK CLUB OR THE PODCAST AND STILL ENGAGED IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU AROUND GOOD BOOKS AND NEW AUTHORS. TO SUCCEEDING GENERATIONS, I THINK THAT THE SONG SAID IT ALL BUTTERFLY IN THE SKY, YOU CAN GO TWICE AS HIGH. TAKE A LOOK. IT'S IN A BOOK. THE READING RAINBOW. THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN PICK UP A BOOK AND TRAVEL ANYWHERE IN THE UNIVERSE OR BEYOND IN YOUR IMAGINATION IS PRETTY POWERFUL STOP TO MAKE. POWERFUL STATEMENT TO MAKE. >> CARLA: BEFORE WE OPEN IT UP TO THE AUDIENCE, I WOULD JUST LIKE TO ASK YOU ANOTHER MESSAGE YOU MIGHT WANT TO GIVE. THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF TALK ABOUT JEOPARDY LATELY AND I JUST WONDER IF YOU WOULD JUST LIKE TO TELL -- USE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO TELL YOUR FANS AND THANK THEM FOR THE SUPPORT THAT THEY HAVE SHOWN YOU. >> LEVAR: THANK YOU, DR. HAYDEN. I REALLY APPRECIATE THAT. I HAVE BEEN OVERWHELMED BY THE SUPPORT FROM THE PEOPLE, FROM FOLKS OUT THERE. THEY SAW THAT I -- I SORT OF PUT MYSELF OUT THERE. I WANTED THE GIG. YOU SAID I HAPPEN THE GIG. I WENT FOR IT. IT DIDN'T WORK OUT THAT WAY. BUT YOU KNOW, WHEN ONE DOOR CLOSES THEY SAY ANOTHER ONE OPENS OR WINDOW AT LEAST BECOMES AJAR. OPPORTUNITIES IN FRONT OF ME NOW WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE HAD I GOTTENED THAT JOB. I DO BELIEVE I'M ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT BELIEVES EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON IN ITS OWN TIME AND TIMING AND OFTENTIMES IT IS THE FULLNESS OF TIME THAT REVEALS, YOU KNOW, THE TRUE PURPOSE FOR EVENTS AS THEY UNFOLD IN OUR LIVES. I JUST TRY TO BE PATIENT AND WAIT FOR THAT WHICH IS IT TO REVEAL ITSELF. I DIDN'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT IT TOO LONG. I'M EXCITED ABOUT THE OPPORTUNITY WE'RE LOOKING AT RIGHT NOW. >> CARLA: I'M SURE WE'RE ALL EXCITED, TOO, AND WE WANT TO KNOW AS SOON AS YOU CAN LET US KNOW. >> LEVAR: I WILL KEEP YOU POSTED. >> CARLA: KEEP US POSTED. NOW, WE HAVE SOME QUESTIONS COMING IN. I WANT TO JUST START WITH THE QUESTION FROM JOHN. JOHN WANTS TO KNOW, AND THIS I THINK I'M GOING TO HEAR YOUR ANSWER ABOUT THIS, TOO. WHEN READING A NEW BOOK THAT YOU ARE UNSURE ABOUT, HOW MUCH DO YOU READ BEFORE DECIDING YOU CAN'T CONTINUE? >> LEVAR: YOU KNOW, IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE WE LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE IT IS POSSIBLE TO GET PLENTY OF INFORMATION BEFORE YOU OPEN THE BOOK AND START WITH CHAPTER 1. SO IT IS -- I CAN'T REMEMBER THE LAST BOOK I BEGAN THAT DIDN'T COME TO MY ATTENTION AS A RECOMMENDATION FROM SOMEBODY WHO I KNOW AND TRUST OR SOMETHING THAT I HAVE READ ABOUT THE BOOK OR THE AUTHOR THAT PEEKED MY INTEREST. SO IT HAS BEEN VERY FEW TIMES. I THINK I HAVE ONLY EVER STARTED ONE NOVEL IN MY LIFE AND NOT FINISHED IT. THAT WAS WAY BACK IN THE DAY WHEN I WAS IN SCHOOL. NORMAN NALOR'S ARMY OF THE NIGHT. I JUST COULDN'T GET INTO IT. I SHOULD ACTUALLY PROBABLY GIVE THAT BOOK ANOTHER OPPORTUNITY AND SEE IF I DON'T FEEL DIFFERENTLY ABOUT IT. ALL THESE YEARS LATER. >> CARLA: LIKE BRUSSEL SPROUTS , GIVE IT ANOTHER SHOUT. BECAUSE THERE IS SUCH -- >> LEVAR: HE WAS A SELL BRAID AUTHOR JUST AT THE TIME IT DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO OFFER ME. THAT IS ANOTHER THING ABOUT BOOKS. THERE IS IS A GIFT GIFT IN EVERY BOOK. IN EVERY NOVEL. AND THERE IS SOMETHING THAT WE TAKE AWAY THAT IS A GIFT FROM THE STORY FROM THE AUTHOR AND I LOOK FORWARD TO THOSE GIFTS, THOSE GEMS, THOSE PRESENTS IN MY LIFE. >> CARLA: BECAUSE THERE IS BACK GUILT THAT SO MANY OF US GREW UP WITH. YOU HAVE TO FINISH IT. SO WE HAVE A QUESTION NOW FROM MELINDA WHO WANTS TO KNOW AND SHE SAYS, I LOVE THAT YOU ALSO USE YOUR TALENTS AS A NARRATOR AND CAN YOU TELL US EITHER ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE NARRATING OR YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH AUDIO BOOKS. THEY'RE VERY POPULAR. >> LEVAR: THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION. I PERSONALLY, I LOVE AUDIO LITERATURE AND FOR ME IF I'M -- IF I HAVE LISTENED TO A BOOK I REALLY DO CONSIDER THAT I HAVE READ IT. THE THING ABOUT AUDIO LITERATURE, TO ME ME, LIKE I SAID, THAT OPPORTUNITY TO REAL LY PERFORM A STORY. USING THE CLUES THAT THE AUTHOR GIVES IN THE TEXT IT IS JUST FUN TO CONNECT THOSE DOTS AND FROM A FEW PHRASES OF DESCRIPTION CREATE A CHARACTER OR SET A THEME, BRING THE CORRECT EMOTIONAL NOTE TO THE MOMENT AND WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHERE WE ARE MULTI-TASKING. WE'RE DOING SEVERAL THINGS AT THE SAME TIME. READING A BOOK FORCES ME TO STOP AND BE COMPLETELY PRESENT BUT I FIND THAT I CAN -- I CAN STILL ENJOY A STORY WHEN IT IS BEING TOLD TO ME AND WHO DOESN'T LIKE BEING READ TO? I SPEND A LOT OF TIME READING. I'M NO DIFFERENT. I LIKE TO BE READ TO AS WELL. >> CARLA: AUDIO BOOKS GIVE YOU A LOT OF FREEDOM TO DO THE OTHER THINGS BUT STILL HEAR THE STORY. >> LEVAR: STILL BE ENGAGED IN THAT STORY, THAT'S RIGHT. >> CARLA: NOW, A QUESTION FROM ROCHELLE. WHICH RELATES TO WHERE I AM RIGHT NOW. WHEN YOU VISITED THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS FOR YOUR READING RAINBOW EPISODE, YOU GOT TO SEE SOME PRETTY COOL BEHIND-THE-SCENES PLACES. SO DO YOU HAVE ANY FOUND MEMORIES OF THAT DAY? >> LEVAR: I DO, INDEED. THE MATH ROOM. SEEING ANCIENT DOCUMENTS THAT -- YOU KNOW, THAT DELIVERED INFORMATION THAT SHAPED THE DECISIONS THAT PEOPLE MADE. MAPS ARE REALLY INCREDIBLE DOCUMENTS AND FULL OF STORIES AND IT WAS JUST REAL REALLY EXCITING TO BE TO BE THAT CLOSE TO DOCUMENTS THAT WERE SO RARE THAT THEY'RE ONLY PULLED OUT ON SPECIAL OCCASIONS AND YOU HAVE TO WEAR SPECIAL GLOVES IN ORDER TO HANDLE THEM. IN FACT I DIDN'T TOUCH ANYTHING ON THE DAY. BUT IT WAS JUST WHY THRILLING TO JUST BE THAT CLOSE TO DOCUMENTS THAT OLD THAT WERE AS IMPORTANT AS THEY WERE IN THE MOMENT OF THEIR CREATION. THEY WERE REALLY CRITICAL TO -- AS I SAY, THINGS THAT HAPPENED HISTORICAL MOMENTS WERE BASED ON THOSE MAPS. KIND OF CRAZY. >> CARLA: AND YOU WERE LOOKING AT THE REAL THING THIS. THAT IS WHY THE GLOVES. >> LEVAR: THE REAL THING. >> CARLA: NOW, THERE IS A QUESTION FROM BEATRICE. LEVAR, YOU HAVE HAD A HUGE IMPACT ON MY LOVE OF READING. JUST WONDERING, WHAT'S NEXT FOR YOU IN ADDITION TO YOUR NEW BOOK CLUB, ANYTHING ON THE HORIZON? >> LEVAR: UM, YES. YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE WAYS I LOVE BEING A STORYTELLER IS A DIRECTOR OF TELEVISION AND FILM AND FOR THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS I HAVE BEEN IN THE DIRECTING ROTATION ON A SHOW CALLED NC CI S NEW ORLEANS STARRING MY OLD FRIEND SCOTT BACKLA. THAT SHOW WAS CANCELED LAST YEAR BUT THE PRODUCING AND WRITING STAFF HAS MOVED OVER TO ANOTHER CBS SHOW CALLED NCIS HAWAII AND ABOUT 15, 16 DAYS TIME, I'LL BE HEADING OVER THERE FOR MY FIRST DIRECTING ASSIGNMENT ON THIS NEW SEASON OF NCIS THE FIRST SEASON OF NCI S HAWAII. >> CARLA: GREAT. BECAUSE SCOTT HAS A QUESTION. HE WANTS TO KNOW, ARE THERE ANY BOOKS YOU READ THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE YOURSELF PLAYING A CHARACTER IN A FILM VERSION? >> LEVAR: WOW. >> CARLA: UH-HUH. >> LEVAR: WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK LIKE EVERYBODY, WHEN I READ NOVELS, IF THERE IS -- IF THERE IS ROOM FOR IT I CERTAIN LY IMAGINE MYSELF AS THE HERO AS THE PROTAGONIST. BUT THERE ARE A COUPLE. THERE'S A BOOK BYE-BYE WALTER THAT I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO MAKE INTO A FILM AND THE LEAD ROLE IS ONE THAT I THINK I WOULD REALLY ENJOY PLAYING. THE ROLE IS THAT OF AN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE. VERY SOPHISTICATED AI WHO IS ACTUALLY IN CHARGE OF THE WORLD AS IT HAS SURVIVED IN THIS NOVEL AND TIME FRAME OF THIS NOVEL. AND WHEN WE MEET THIS CHARACTER HE IS IN THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO END HIS EXISTENCE. THE WISE AND WHEREFORE I WON'T SPOIL FOR YOU. BUT HE'S UNSUCCESSFUL IN THAT ATTEMPT AND IT IS THE STORY BECOMES SORT OF A LOVE STORY. A TRIANGLE BETWEEN THIS CASH AND TWO OTHER CHARACTERS. PHENOMENAL STORY. A MAN WHO WROTE THE HUSTLER AND THAT FILM THAT ADAPTATION STAR RING PAUL NEW MAN, JACKIE GLEASON, RIP TORN, ONE OF THE BEST BOOK ADAPTATIONS INTO A MOTION PICTURE THAT EVER WAS MADE. I THINK THE HUSTLER AND THEN THE FOLLOW-UP, THE COLOR OF MONEY WHERE PAUL NEWMAN PLAYED THE SAME CHARACTERING BOTH GREAT. GREAT FILMS FROM THE SOURCE MATERIAL OF A BOOK. >> CARLA: WOW. NOW, I KNOW PEOPLE ARE GOING TO START LOOKING AT THE MOVIE AND THE BOOK. THE HUSTLER, THEY'RE GOING TO DO IT. >> LEVAR: I HOPE SO. IT IS A PHENOMENAL, PHENOMENAL WRITE. WALTER HE PASSED ON SOME YEARS AGO BUT HE LEFT BEHIND A BODY OF WORK THAT IS SUBSTANTIAL AND IN MY MIND INFORMATIVE. REALLY ENJOYED HIS WORK AN AWFUL LOT. >> CARLA: WELL, ROBERT, WHO IS ONE OF YOUR BIGGEST FANS SAID, I AM ONE OF SO VERY MANY PEOPLE WHO GREW UP WATCHING YOU ON READING RAINBOW AND BEING ENCOURAGED TO READ FROM AN AN ERRLY AGE. WHAT WOULD YOU TELL ME TODAY AT 42? >> LEVAR: I HOPE YOU'RE STILL READING ROBERT. AND IF YOU AREN'T, WHY NOT? I THINK THAT SO MANY OF US LIVE IN SUCH A FAST-PACED UNIVERSE, WE FEEL LIKE WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE CAN SACRIFICE WHEN IN FACT I THINK IT IS QUITE THE OPPOSITE. I THINK THAT TIME SPENT IN THE IMAGINATIVE STATE IS REALLY CRITICAL TO HUMAN BEINGS AND OUR OVERALL MENTAL HEALTH. THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I LOVE ABOUT BEING ON THE FABLE PLATFORM. THIS COMPANY AND ITS FOUNDER, THEIR RESEARCH REVEALS THAT READING AT LEAST AN HOUR A DAY OR NOT EVEN JUST SPENDING SOME TIME IN THE ACTIVITY OF READING IS S GOOD FOR OUR MENTAL HEALTH AND BOY, YOU THINK WE COULD ALL YOU KNOW -- WE COULD ALL STEP UP OUR MENTAL HEALTH GAME THESE DAYS. WE'RE ALL UNDER AN AWFUL LOT OF STRESS. READING FOR PLEASURE FOR ENJOYMENT IF YOU PRIORITIZE IT, MAKE IT A PART OF YOUR SELF- CARE ROUTINE, YOU WILL DERIVE THE BENEFITS FROM THAT THAT AS I SAID RELATIONSHIP WITH THE WRITTEN WORD AND YOUR IMAGINATION. >> CARLA: I REALLY LOVE HOW YOU CHARACTERIZED READING AS PART OF SELF-CARE. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD CONSIDER IT AS. IT IS NOT A LUXURY OR ANYTHING. IT IS REALLY TAKING CARE OF YOURSELF TO EXPAND YOUR MIND. >> LEVAR: IT IS FOR ME. IT IS NOT -- IT IS NOT OPTIONAL LIKE I SAID IT WAS NEVER OPTION AL IN ERMA GENE'S HOUSE AND NOT OPTIONAL IN MY HOUSE EITHER. YOU GOT TO READ. I MEAN I DON'T HIT FOLKS WITH BOOKS BUT MY THREATS ARE A LITTLE MORE SUBTLE. YOU DO NEED TO READ IN THIS HOUSE. YOU ABSOLUTELY DO. >> CARLA: AND THAT IS HOW YOU ENCOURAGED YOUR OWN CHILDREN? [LAUGHTER] >> LEVAR: THE CATTLE PROD WAS NOT NECESSARY FOR WARREN OR MIK : THEY BOTH LOVE IT. I WAS ABLE TO READ A LOT TO ANY CAREER PATH LAY WHEN SHE WAS A KID. WE READ HAD GOOD NIGHT MOON TO HER EVERY NIGHT. I READ HARRY POTTER WITH HER. MY WIFE STEPHANIE READ LICKY ITY SPLIT WITH HER. WE WATCHED JEOPARDY EVERY NIGHT AS A FAMILY. AND WE HAD JUST SO MUCH FUN AS SHE WAS GROWING UP TRYING TO GET THE ANSWERS TO THE QUESTIONS AND YOU KNOW IT WAS JUST AMAZING TO HAVE SEEN HER GO FROM NOT KNOWING ANYTHING AND JUST GUESSING TO ACTUALLY YOU KNOW KNOWING THE ANSWERS. SO THEY SAY THAT I LIKE TO SAY THAT ALL MEDIA IS EDUCATION. RIGHT? ALL TV IS EDUCATIONAL. THE QUESTION IS S WHAT ARE WE TEACHING AND FOR ME THAT SHOW REALLY WAS A HIGH MARK OF -- REALLY REFLECT MY LOVE OF CURIOSITY AND INFORMATION AND FACTS. I MEAN HALF AN HOUR EVERY NIGHT AMERICA EVERYONE COULD AGREE ON THE FACTS AS THEY WERE PRESENTED ON JEOPARDY. THERE WAS NO ARGUING THEM. THERE WAS NO SUCH THING AS ALTERNATIVE FACTS WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE ANSWERS ON JEOPARDY THEY ARE TRUTH AND THAT TRUTH IS IMMUTABLE. THERE IS I THINK FOR AT LEAST ME THERE WAS A CERTAIN COMFORT THAT CAME FROM WATCHING THAT SHOW NIGHT AFTER NIGHT WHEN ALEC WAS ALIVE. >> CARLA: AND BRINGING SO MANY PEOPLE TOGETHER LOOKING AT THE SAME TIME AND TRYING TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS WAS SOMETHING, TOO, AND SO YOUR FRIENDS, JOHN, WANTS TO KNOW, HAVE YOU EVER READ ANY OF THE STAR TREK NOVEL S THAT FEATURE GIORDY LAFO RGE AS A CHARACTER. MAYBE THAT IS -- >> LEVAR: I HAVE NOT. THAT IS THE CHARACTER THAT I PLAYED ON THE SHOW AND I KNOW THERE ARE SO MANY TITLES OUT THERE. BUT I GOT TO TELL YOU, JOHN, THERE ARE EPISODES OF NEXT GENERATION THAT I HAVE NOT SEEN. WE SHOT 179 OF THEM. DEPENDING ON HOW YOU COUNT. THERE ARE ALMOST 100 THAT I HAVE NOT SEEN YET. WHEN WE WERE MAKING THE SHOW IT WAS JUST IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP UP WATCHING IT AND I JUST STOPPED TRYING KNOWING FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE I WOULD BE ABLE TO TUNE IN EVERY DAY PARTICULARLY SOMEWHERE ON THE DIAL AND CATCH AN EPISODE OF STAR TREK. THAT IS WHAT I'M DOING NOW. I'M ENJOYING WATCHING THEM POP UP. I DID A LOT OF DIRECTING ON VOYAGER AND HEAT SPACE NINE AND ENTERPRISE. WHEN THOSE EPISODES POP UP, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE SUCH AN AMAZING PERIOD IN MY LIFE AND THE STORYTELLING THAT WAS DONE ON THOSE SHOWS WAS A REALLY HIGH CALENDAR. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, FOR MOST OF THE TIME, WE STARTED NEXT GENERATION AND THEN WE WERE FOLLOWED BY VOYAGER AND THEN THERE WERE TWO STAR TREK SHOWS ON SIMULTANEOUSLY FOR THE NEXT COUPLE OF DECADES BECAUSE THEN IT WAS VOYAGER AND D SPACE NINE AND ENTERPRISE WERE ON CONCURRENTLY AND THOSE EPISODES SERIES WERE 26 EPISODES A SEASON. WE SHOT 10 MONTHS OF THE YEAR, 12 TO 14 HOURS A DAY, FIVE DAYS A WEEK FOR 10 MONTHS OF THE YEAR. THAT KIND OF -- IT WAS A FACTORY, A HIGH QUALITY FACTORY FOR STORYTELLING LIKES OF WHICH WE'LL NEVER SEE AGAIN. THAT WAS A PRETTY PHENOMENAL OUTPUT OF REALLY HIGH QUALITY STORYTELLING THAT WENT ON, ON THE PARAMOUNT LOT FOR YEARS AND YEARS UNDER THE DIRECTION OF RICH BERMAN, THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCER. >> CARLA: BASED ON BOOKS, AND LAVERN MORE ADVICE BECAUSE SHE SAYS MY FAMILY ENJOYED YOU TREMENDOUSLY ON READING RAINBOW PLEASE PROVIDE SOME TIPS TO ENCOURAGE A CHILD WHO IS NOT AN AVID READER. >> LEVAR: PARENTS ASK ME ALL THE TIME HOW CAN I GET MY CHILD TO READ MORE? I GENERALLY CAN THEM TWO QUESTIONS. NO. 1, DOES YOUR CHILD SEE YOU READING? IT IS THAT VERY IMPORTANT MODELING THAT I THINK REALLY NEEDS TO BE A PART OF THE EQUATION. PART OF THE SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM OF GETTING OUR CHILDREN TO READ MORE. SECOND QUESTION I ASK IS, WHAT IS YOUR CHILD PASSIONATE ABOUT? BECAUSE IT IS OUR PASSIONS THAT DRIVE OUR READING APPETITE. I SAID FOR YEARS IF YOUR CHILD LOVES SUPER HEROES, THEN BUY YOUR KID A COMIC BOOK BECAUSE I DON'T CARE WHAT THE GATEWAY DRUG IS TO READING, RIGHT, COMIC BOOKS ARE LEGITIMATE STORYTELLING. SO WE NEED TO GO AND MEET OUR KIDS WHERE THEY ARE BEFORE WE CAN TAKE THEM WHERE WE WANT THEM TO GO. DISCOVER WHAT YOUR CHILD IS PASSIONATE ABOUT AND THEN FIND READING MATERIAL ON THAT SUBJECT OR IDEA. >> CARLA: I'M SO GLAD THAT YOU ENDORSED ALLOWING YOUNG PEOPLE TO READ COMIC BOOKS AS THAT GATEWAY BECAUSE THAT HAS PROVEN IN SO MANY INSTANCES TO BE THAT HOOK AND GRAPHIC NOVELS AND EVERYTHING. SO TO BE ABLE TO HEAR YOU SAY USE THATIS VERY GOOD. >> LEVAR: COMIC BOOKTION HAD A REALLY IMPORTANT PART OF MY CHILDHOOD. I'M AN ARMY BRAT. WE LIVED OVERSEAS AND WHEN WE WERE POSTED TO GERMANY WHEN I WAS IN THE THIRD AND FOURTH GRADE, EVERY SATURDAY WE WOULD GO AROUND TO DIFFERENT APART BLOCKS ON BASE AND TRADE COMIC BOOKS BECAUSE A COMIC BOOK YOU HAD NOT READ WAS A NEW COMIC BOOK TO YOU. AND YOU KNOW THIS WAS THE 60s AND EVERYTHING HAD TO BE SHIPPED OVER, RIGHT? SO WE WERE BEHIND IN TERMS OF WHAT WAS NEW AND HAPPENING IN POPULAR CULTURE. ALL THE TELEVISION AT THAT TIME WAS IN GERMAN. WE ENDED UP LISTENING TO THE RADIO FOR ENTERTAINMENT AND READING AND SO MY CHILDHOOD WAS FULL OF BOOKS AND COMIC BOOKS WAS CERTAINLY A LARGE PART OF THAT FOR ME. >> CARLA: I'M ALSO PLEASED TO HEAR YOU SAY THAT BECAUSE THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS, AS YOU PROBABLY KNOW, HAS THE LARGEST COMIC BOOK COLLECTION PEOPLE MIGHT NOT REALIZE THAT IN THE COUNTRY. SO WE'RE -- >> LEVAR: WHEN I COME -- MY NEXT VISIT I WANT TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE COMIC BOOK STACK. I WANT TO SEE WHAT Y'ALL GOT. >> CARLA: GOOD. WE HAVE IT. WE HAVE IT. >> LEVAR: THAT WOULD BE AWESOME. >> CARLA: AND PEOPLE ARE REAL LY INTERESTED IN THE PODCAST, TOO, LEVAR BURTON READ AND KAY WANTS TO KNOW SPECIFICALLY NOW, HOW DO YOU CHOOSE WHICH STORIES YOU FEATURE BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY GOOD ONES, YOU MENTIONED FUNNEL. BUT HOW DO YOU MAKE THAT SELECTION? >> LEVAR: KAY, MICROTORE I CAN'T IS REALLY SIMPLE. WHEN I BEGIN TO GET INVITED ABOUT WANTING TO SHARE THAT STORY, WANTING TO READ IT ALOUD WHEN I BEGIN TO IMAGINE WHAT THE CHARACTER SOUND LIKE, WHEN YOU REALLY BEGIN TO IMMERSE MYSELF FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF PERFORMANCE IN THE STORY, I KNOW IT IS A PRETTY GOOD CANDIDATE. THAT IS ALWAYS AN INDICATOR FOR ME. WHEN I GET EXCITED ABOUT WANTING TO READ IT ALOUD, THAT IS A SURE SIGN FOR ME THAT THE STORY IS A CONTENDER. >> CARLA: THAT IS WHAT YOU SAY OKAY. THIS IS THE ONE I WANT TO PICK. THERE ARE SO MANY. >> LEVAR: YEAH. YEAH. >> CARLA: WELL, THIS HAS BEEN A VERY HARD YEAR I DON'T AND JOHN SENT IN ONE OF OUR LAST QUESTIONS AND IT REALLY SPEAKS TO WHAT WE ALL WANT TO KNOW. WHAT BOOKS HAVE YOU FOUND TO OFFER DIRECTION FORWARD AND AN UPLIFTING MINDSET? >> LEVAR: I'M GOING TO MENTION A COUPLE. WHEN TALKING ABOUT FAVORITE LITERATURE FOR KIDS I ALWAYS CITE AMAZING GRACE BY MARY HOF MANOR. I ALSO LOVE ERIC MUST BE SUN'S BOOK ENEMY PIE. THOSE ARE TWO TERRIFIC STORIES THAT HAVE A LOT OF VALUE COVER TO COVER. WE TALKED EARLIER ABOUT JASON REYNOLDS. FOR THE HAWAII SET. HE'S JUST BRILLIANT. HE GETS -- HE GETS TEENAGERS. HE HAS NOT FORGOTTEN WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO LIVE IN THAT SKIN HE'S BRILLIANT. I'M GOING TO MENTION A BOOK THE ROAD LESS TRAVELED. YOU MENTIONED SOMETHING THAT HELPED ME ALONG MY JOURNEY. THIS IS NOT FICTION BUT THE ROAD LESS TRAVELED M SCOTT PECK MD. IT WAS A BOOK THAT I READ AT A PIVOTAL TIME IN MY LIFE WHEN I WAS REALLY LOOKING FOR ANSWERS ABOUT HOW TO BE THE MOST EFFECTIVE HUMAN BEING I COULD BE. AND I GOT AN AWFUL LOT FROM THAT BOOK. THE ROAD LESS TRAVELED BY DR. M SCOTT PECK. >> CARLA: I'M DEFINITELY GETTING IT. THANK YOU, LEVAR, FOR YOUR SUPPORT AT THE FESTIVAL AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, YOUR DEVOTION TO BOOKS AND READING. YOU'VE INSPIRED US ALL AND WE LOVE SPENDING TIME WITH YOU AND WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU IN WASHINGTON, D.C. SOON. WE'LL BRING OUT THE GOOD SILVER , ALL THE COMIC BOOKS YOU WANT. >> LEVAR: >> LEVAR: AND, OF COURSE, WE LOOK FORWARD TO LABOR DAY WEEKEND, 2022, WHERE WE CAN GATHER AGAIN AS WELL AS VIRTUAL LY AND CELEBRATE THE GREAT LITERARY TRADITION THAT OUR NATION IS KNOWN FOR. >> CARLA: AND ON BEHALF OF THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TONIGHT. THE NATIONAL BOOK FESTIVAL IS NOW OFF AND RUNNING SO GO TO LOC.GOV/BOOKFEST TO START YOUR LITERARY JOURNEY. HAVE A GREAT EVENING AND TAKE CARE.

Channel: Library of Congress

Views: 993

Rating: 4.9111109 out of 5

Keywords: Library of Congress

Id: iTKHKgvmKGE

Length: 246min 50sec (14810 seconds)

Published: Fri Sep 17 2021