Table In The Back | Part Three | My Sit-Down with Sammy The Bull

so what happened so there there's your bar on Jamaica Revenue called the Shamrock Lounge right so this kid Frankie geese that was around us with my father he was his father his father Frankie senior was a big [ __ ] he got a heart attack and the kid inherited the book but he was with us the kid and me and my brother were partners with him on the [ __ ] book so there's the spot on Jamaica area called the Shamrock Lounge he goes in there one night to meet his girl and he has a beef with the sky the guy kept on nudging him and he has words with the guy he leaves he goes to Jojo carage's club right and Bobby glasses is there and this guy um Bobby glasses and this other guy um Ronnie the Jew they used to call me he wasn't Jewish that was just his nickname that's called Ronnie to Jill that three of them get in the car drunk they go back to the Shamrock Bar they walk in and they bless the bartender and the owner they clip both of them who's in the bar drinking I can't believe you never heard this Pete got his daughter Linda is in the bar hanging out with her friends right after they clip these two guys Bobby glass is a rhino did you go to The Patio Lounge on Rockaway Boulevard this kid Frankie Gish comes to me I'm in the spa called the Polish bar and Ozone Park he comes to me and he tells me Me and Bobby glasses are reminding to Drew just clip two people in on Jamaica room and he's got like blood on his sleeve I go and you [ __ ] came here after you did like you came right to me so he was nervous wreck so we take him we take his call we get rid of his car and I bring him to the Hilton there was a Hilton hotel on um by Kennedy Airport we put him in the room in the Hilton Hotel the next day I call up the room he's gone he's gone right now Pete got his daughter Linda made a statement gave them up drani and because she knew them all gave their names gave a statement to the cops now the cops know who who they are right now they're up in arms John John John wasn't even I don't think John was even a captain yet I'm trying to think I don't know if they made him a captain yet well anyway they're up in arms because now Linda you know gave them up gave up these people now um then she retracted the stem anyway they come to the post but John gotting I mean it was a terrible thing John Gotti Johnny canig Genie Angelo they come to the Polish bar my father's there with Tony Lee and they're in the corner and they're talking and my father calls me over and he goes listen Frankie Gish got to go because he instigated the whole thing just kid Frankie gee she got enhanced together he said Frankie he's got to go so I said all right he's got to go and so to make a long story short so I show how we're going to do it so they said well we're going to make an appointment we're going to reach out to his family we're going to tell his family to tell them come to meet you by the Lindenwood Diner May no me to meet me by the length of a diner and you're going to bring him around the back of the window with Dinah and then Jeannie and Johnny because they're going to take them from behind the Lindenwood Diner so I said all right so I'm waiting in front of Linda with Dinah for him to come a couple of days later and a Cadillac pulls up and I look in and it's a guy that looks just like him with his uncle his uncle lived in the Bronx and his uncle because Anthony come here I want to talk to you so I get in the cargo where's your nephew he says to me you think I'm going to let you kill my [ __ ] nephew I said I don't know what you're talking about I just want to know who the Charlotte customers are we want to get our money we don't know who the customers are I know he ran away he said how much just got on the street so I said we had like 27 000 in the street I gave him a figure he goes I tell your father I'm going to send them the money because his uncle was a knocking around guy from the Bronx but tell him I'm going to take care of my nephew and I never see the kid again I never see the kid again until years and years later he winds up getting pinched in in Florida in the interim the true shall we out they got all the all the statements retracted from Linda she she retracted a statement and all the evidence disappeared conveniently disappeared out of police custody I can't believe that you never heard that story no I really never and that's such a hell of a sign that Bobby glasses years later they they so they all went to trout in the state but they beat the case then Bobby glasses got indicted by the feds on that so they never get indicted in that case no they did got pinched in Florida but by the time he got pitched there was no more witnesses but what happened was when Bobby glasses got pinched by the state or no who's one of the guys the witnesses they lie because Ronnie one arm fixed all of it they threw the murder in on Bobby glasses and the FEDS Bobby glasses wind up getting indicted years and years later by the feds as part of a RICO and he wind up getting convicted for the two murders but did they use her statement no no never used a stage how did they get pinched other people came forward then and it went on and said they lied they were they were threatened by Riley one because now Riley one of them got life he's in jail he's gone and other people came forward and changed their testimony and then they had me I cooperated so that my my testimony because I was in on the whole scheme and and Bobby glasses got convicted but Linda originally gave them all up and everything disappeared all the evidence disappeared and they made the move got rid of everything but she read it she read it yeah she wrote lady got his door Peter got his daughter Linda Gotti so it's crazy Peter Gotti's daughter cooperated she read it it's all documented and it's documented and uh this is incredible I didn't know that but it brings me to this which is another thing the guys just call everybody a rat do all kinds of things and a lot of guys I mean it's a label that we get stuck with if you cooperate there's a lot of stories I've heard of I could talk about hundreds of stories that people cooperated now I always look at why did the guy cooperate it this guy's a tough guy why did he there's always a story so she didn't have any stories you just cooperated yeah she was in the bar at the time of the crime and she cooperated so now and they called people names and whatever now John Jr cooperated sure was God made apples without a doubt are you so you agree with that I mean he he definitely cooperated I just don't understand the conversations and you know I get a lot of questions I have a lot of people and I get all kinds of questions you betrayed John or this or they some guys love John but a lot of people starting to understand exactly what happened with John now people are understanding what happened with John Jr there's no question that he cooperated you know I love these stories that guys on these programs say you know I cooperated but I cooperated but I didn't really cooperate because you know that's like uh you know you didn't get to just go pregnant you didn't stick your immaculous way or that way you know what I mean don't stop the [ __ ] you cooperated and my the guy didn't get convicted it don't matter whether he got conducted or not it don't even matter if the guy got pinched when you were talking with the [ __ ] feds Incorporated you're cooperating yeah I mean when I talk with the feds I hey good morning uh you know what are you sitting outside for uh it was cold one my the Frank of my the agents were always on my back my coming my secretary says it's [ __ ] snowing it's right before Christmas the Frank and Maddie they won't even know their names Frank and Matty were outside sitting in the car right before Christmas cold as a bass it's snowing so I said these [ __ ] they don't want to stop they're always here so I got I you know we had cookies and granolis in my office for other people so I took some cookies some cannolis a couple cups of coffee and I put it in a box that I not I went out and I knocked on the [ __ ] window they really couldn't the guy opens up the window what is it Sammy I said just don't just ever go home no it's [ __ ] Christmas go to [ __ ] home stop get off my back a little bit and I believe that's our job yeah I got cookies and coffee for you at least to keep warm he said no we can't take that is that a [ __ ] bribe yeah yeah it's cookies and coffee I suppose you could take the [ __ ] thing don't worry about it so I give him the [ __ ] cookies in the day and you know but uh did that kind of talk in a joke and you could do whatever the [ __ ] you of course once you say something about somebody it's cooperating you know an undercover guy uh CIA I hate CI is worse than anything because he's cooperating with the government he's wired up he's talking to his best friend he's talking to his friend you know we can make money if we do this yeah yeah yeah so you're sucking this guy into a conversation so he admits oh yeah maybe we could deal drugs you just buried him yeah now he don't get buried right away he don't kick the door when they come in but they know he's a drug dealer so now when you leave all of a sudden now they don't pinch him but they call the other agents and they say Joe Blow is a drug dealer stay on them now so three months from that a guy gets pitched you know he don't know what hit him or why it was your conversation yeah brought him brought you to the guy yeah you're right so you're not a rat because you didn't take the stand against him but you buried him of course so I mean so that's what John Gotti Jr did he met with them he talked with them um you know there's another story when there's a story about when I cooperated there was a story about John made a deal with Sammy John Gotti I don't know if you heard this so son for a son don't cooperate against my son and I won't kill your son sounds beautiful it's [ __ ] yeah of course I didn't make no deal with him didn't make nothing but here's why he told me that John Gotti Jr went to a club one night with a bunch of his friends they hate on this broad head on this young girl the guy is it's his girlfriend he steps to the plate and he says hey wait a minute bro hey this is my girlfriend Leon leave her alone he's putting up he's protecting his girl and himself and they wind up arguing with him they give him a beating knock his ass on the floor it's not unconscious but he's on the floor beat up fight over right yeah no not for John Junior John Junior gets a [ __ ] knife yeah you know that story I know I'm going to tell you yeah a bunch of times and kills him yeah he knows I know this story because John Gotti himself the next day after he did that tells me my [ __ ] son this piece of [ __ ] killed the [ __ ] kid last night and it tells me the whole story about the girl and the fight and the whole thing so I said what are you gonna do he says I gotta deal with the cops I think he was paying 25 000 and I'm going to be able to squash this if you need my help in any way let me know I mean I might know cops over there or maybe I could help him in some way because I was always rigging cases and bribing people left and right too so I said if you need me tonight I got this all right good so John in his mind when I cooperate he knows I know the whole story and he knows I could just bury the sun just by saying it so when I cooperate there's that thing there's a deal don't testify against my son and I won't hurt yourself yeah let that but that didn't exist that's [ __ ] I just never testified against his son when I was with the feds I said to the feds I don't there's not a story about it yeah we know yeah then leave me the [ __ ] alone I don't want to test the fly against and scared it'll look like I'm trying to hurt his family I don't want the I'm I'm out and I got like real serious with them with them they needed me in a million cases so they just said okay yeah okay they just walked away so I never made no deals with them how many of the deals with the feds I don't want to do that yeah he never takes response to listen that night and I know the whole story intimately I'm going to tell you how that night that happened I'm in the spot of Polish but I used to hang out in this Polish national Hall was called in Ozone Park I don't want to say her name but a girl was there that I know a very good friend of mine she came to the Polish bar scared to death and she takes me on the side and she tells me listen I just was in the ball in Jamaica Avenue and I saw Junior stab a guy and I told her just like this I said don't ever ever tell that to anybody ever again because I figured they killed don't ever say nothing to anybody ever again about that that night they went to Tony Lee to get shot Royale was with my father had all the connections with the Queen's Day with Santucci they had that big meeting and and out to Donna's Restaurant with John when John was divorced with the Queen's Day remember that meeting that would say Tucci was front page news they went to him and they rounded up all the cops to a junior when they get pinched um now there was another kid in there that I don't know if you notice that they thought was going to give Junior up if one of the kids wouldn't his name I forget his I can't think of his name it's on the time I talked he accidentally hung himself and committed suicide but there wasn't a suicide I forget his name because when I got when I cooperated the feds were asking me about the whole system I knew about the situation that they know wasn't a suicide so two people got killed over that but I didn't know but I I knew about the stereo and I told him about the stabbing but they never used me on his case but he knows take responsible for anything he went in there and he profited listen it doesn't matter forget it let's make out of the improper what he's doing now is that a rap move let's stay with the let's stay with the with the Cooperative yeah right so you cooperated you're a witness and you're telling them facts that you know about murder exactly I did the same thing but I didn't want to testify right now if they're not going to indict him for that murder but they know he did not only through May but through you and through other things and situations girls and everybody else why didn't they invite him that'll tell you point blank that he was a cooperator he got a pace for it you'll never hear it you'll never know about it but they'll never indict him that alone is evidence enough see it's not evidence in the court but [ __ ] the court it's evidence in the street in the street you ask any guy as soon as you talk to them go to a ghetto ask a black guy go to a Mexican area ask a Mexican guy any [ __ ] body they'll know that that guy is unseen there's 302's yeah what on him yeah 302 right and then then why wouldn't you indict him in other words how could you possibly say you're not a Cooperative there's history no he didn't get pitched no all right so that'll tell you that they didn't use now now when he got indicted on this the last case out of Florida they didn't use they they the Florida the U.S attorney in Florida wanted to talk to me and the and the the Gambino Squad in Queens wouldn't let them use me because they wanted to use me against Bobby glasses and they wanted to use me on the Lufthansa case with Vinnie Sarah so they wouldn't let them use me for some reason and I never they never talked to me but Tony the organized crime the the gambino squander Queens those are the only guys Jerry Conrad and them to talk to me about it they would never let the guy in Florida speak to me for some reason but listen I cooperated I mean that was the hardest decision I ever made I don't I'm sure it was for you too it took me a year I mean I I I I still struggle with it sometimes I mean I struggled with that conversation I don't struggle with it anymore sometimes only because I feel guilty sometimes I think of my own man and I don't know two fly-in folks you know I'm gonna tell us about fat cat Nichols the black guy yeah I was in Jamaica Queens well I was with him I did time with him fat cat Nichols killed his parole officer I know all about it gets pinched yeah gets a life sentence goes to prison he's doing life I was with him in prison yeah stood up the other black guys use with his crew they [ __ ] his wife they're [ __ ] his wife yeah and they're beating up his mother slapping the [ __ ] at her because they're taking the spots and everything they're all those junk spots so they're stripping him that they get in touch with him and they say there's a guy who cooperated in this building there's a police car outside every day two cops young cops who are protecting him by sitting there one of the cops goes for coffee and donuts or whatever the [ __ ] he's gonna eat in the morning comes back what we want to do they're asking fat cat permission because he's their boss we want to kill the cop the one go in and kill the guy who was cooperating fat cat tells them no no they don't listen to Fat Cat they do what they want they kill the cop the guy inside here's the shots goes out the back window they go in the front door they can't even find the guy he don't get killed the cop they kill young guy it was a rookie rookie I know his brother is a [ __ ] FBI agent yeah opens up a [ __ ] mess of FBI thing you killed the cop and a FBI's brother massive fat cat gets pinched for it and is facing a capital case death penalty yeah he refused so you give him all of those things I just said any cooperated flips [ __ ] you guys yeah I told you no and I'm I'm not gonna give my life to you no more yeah and did all the right things so do you call Fat Cat a rat so I mean I went to jail in 78 the first time I went to jail in 78 and my father had a going away party for me at the Raven night like I was going off to college they had a big going away party from at the ravenite I went to jail at 78 right when I was 23. I went to jail again at 90 and 91 first policy it wasn't a thought in my mind then I went to jail again in 96 on a state case and while I was away I got indicted by the feds with Nikki in Florida and I wound up again 10 more years I did eight years in three months and it still wasn't a thought in my mind I got out of jail in 0-4 after doing eight years and three months by that time John Gotti was dead my father died when I was in jail Tony Lee was dead you cooperated which you know you were one of my favorite my Idols one of my favorite mob guys when I was in jail in 91 and they told me you cooperated I told Bobby Bobby the Jew I thought it was Frank when he said that guy is because we used to say call John that guy and we knew it was John he said with that guy's co-defendant flipped I went who Frankie I thought it was Frankie look he goes no Sammy I said Sammy I was shocked it still wasn't a dorm I remember when I got I don't know four a couple of months later I got pinched again I'm only home a few months and I get pinched for the murder and in a recall for my brother-in-law and you know my whole train of thought started changing because things were different like I said you cooperated Joe Messina cooperated another guy I was close with I knew him John was seen him before he was even straightened out now he was the boss he cooperated they knew everything um and I just uh it took me a year I mean it took me a year I would share me I would I would for some reason when I got pinched after all four this age in Jerry Conrad he he just he was good nice to me like I don't know how to use the bathroom the Marshalls wouldn't take me out to the bathroom and I told the marsh listen if you don't take me out of this holding cell there was no bowling I'm going to piss on the floor and he took me out he took me to the bathroom this agent he brought me a sandwich for some reason he just rubbed me the right way and he gave me his card and I never in my life ever kept any of those cards I would rip them right up and throw them away because I got them times before that I would rip them up throw them away and I call up my attorney right away Joe Joe carazzo or Ronnie whoever was my attorney I say the fedge just came here and I I ripped up the card and whatever I put it on record right away that they saw me and I didn't talk to them but for some reason I held this guy's car I don't know why and I would pick up the phone and I hanged it up and I pick up the phone and I hang it up this went on for a year I don't know how many times I picked up the phone to call the feds and I hung it up I couldn't do it every time I picked up the phone I saw my father's face and I knew how he would feel about it and I knew and if I and I know if he was alive would break his heart because he was that's who he was you know what I mean and um and I couldn't do it finally like I said everybody was gone bosses are cooperating I said what am I doing what am I crazy what am I going to spend the rest of my life in jail for this I it just I didn't have the same feeling about it right it was over exactly and I and I still didn't make the call I gave the card the Jerry Conrad the ages caught I gave it to my wife Valerie and I said listen tomorrow when you go to work today when you get to it call this number and tell this guy to come see me and she went to work she called them up and that afternoon him and another agent came to my house and called Mac and and I and they asked me one question they asked me did you did you just kill your brother-in-law that was the first question they asked me and I said yeah and then they the next day they brought me uh money they asked me what do you you know I couldn't pay my mortgage I had no money I had nothing the next day they brought me I know I think they brought me like 3 500 in cash and they brought me a list of because I had to get an attorney they brought me a list and you know not a lot of lawyers are going to represent people that cooperated they gave me a list with 10 names on it 10 attorneys that um would represent me as a cooperator you know my car and and one of the lawyers was Michael Gold whose father was I don't know you're probably Eugene right who who years and years before that indicted my father on the gold bug with Paulie vario and all of them they had a bug in the trailer and they indicted like 30 40 guys and I recognized the name I said oh I said is he related to Eugene gold they said yeah it's his son so I wind up hiring him right and charged me 25 000 but I didn't even have that so but when I sold my my townhouse the feds put the money in escrow and I paid him out of that so it was a process before I made that decision right of course it is of course it is listen it's not the it's you know people can make a statement one two three I mean I know when any gangster go through I went through it myself when I flipped when I walked away from the mob and I walked away from John I said to myself [ __ ] it I'm not I'm done with this thing but I also said to myself I know I'll probably be dead in less than a year I just didn't give a [ __ ] no more about life about nothing so you're going away in in a place that is is just a disaster for anybody who's a tough guy and in in the real life and understands us that's why I would always ask when a tough guy cooperates what happened what's his story that's why I asked you this story I mean because I know it's a tough story where people go through like look how many times you're arrested and you stood in jail you stood up I did 14 years I know and not only that it's not even 14 I did yeah 18 on my last one 17 years seven months it's it's the pressure of constant and the pressure of what's going on on the outside whether it's family pressures whether it's Street pressures you're watching I was in on the bus at a very oh for one at that you're swatching me go with that route you're watching Joe Messina doing that see those kind of ratsby you know with a confidential informant if you're going to Flip Flip yeah say the truth take the consequences if it happens but none of this confidential [ __ ] you're calling your friend the guy's taking you in his house with his wife and kids and they're [ __ ] listening to all these conversations I want to throw up when I hear that yeah you know I was doing time with a guy who flipped the guy came in he was crying and I went it was I was in MCC and uh yeah it said what happened and he says I got sentenced I heard 30. and I say oh my God they give you 30 years and he's crying no no he says 30 months 30 months I give him a crack in his [ __ ] face yeah and I told why would you cooperate you're only facing 30 months 40 months yeah what the [ __ ] you just got he said he wanted to go into problem because he wanted to leave his wife go with his girlfriend and the witness protection they said Divorce Court walked away from your wife and go with your girlfriend you're going to write on your friends just to go with your girlfriend oh my God so you'll hear some cases like that's a rat yeah I agree that's a long way and people out there now will take the money today I mean they wanted me to wear a wire I said no and the reason why I said no I said no I'm not going to wear because now I'm out on bill so when I decided to cooperate I profited they met me so they came by my house that day they and the next day they came back with the money and a list once I returned Michael Gold now I met them in the world of Astoria they had a suite the feds man and the U.S attorneys so now I meet them in the world of a story with now Michael Gold and there there's 28 20 and that bombing your questions you know about this murder you know about that murder you know about the Charlie conigla killed my friend Mikey they asked me about him they're asking me about Bobby glasses with the Shamrock murder they're asking me about cops you know anything about cop star on the take they're asking me their but you know how it is that about bonding what questions and then now I'm out on bail and I'm no I it's still nobody knows yet I'm just meeting with them nobody knows God I'm cooperating I'm still home they asked me if I they wanted me to wear a wire and I said I'm not wearing a wire because then other people friends of mine are going to get entrapped here and I'm not you know that's not who I'm that's not who I'm gonna hurt if I hurt anybody it's not going to be them and then they backed off with the wire [ __ ] but they followed me around for about three weeks like I had co-defendant meetings with skinny Dom because he was my co-defendant skinny diamond and uh and they followed me to to the lawyer's office and they took pictures Ronnie one arm's son they made him a skipper alfonse that he was there and they took pictures of me with him and they just surveilled me for a couple of weeks and then I went into court and I signed the cooperation agreement and I pleaded guilty to the murder and uh they took the bracelet off me I had I was on the home confinement and then they put me in a safe house in New Jersey and then you know then I started from there but uh even today you know today's I mean I asked you this you know it still bothers me sometimes because I I mean I would like to believe not that I would like to believe I believe that if my father was alive I went and cooperated because then I would have gave him up and I would have never done that nobody loved me like that he loved me more than my mother to be honest with you nobody loved me like that man and I would have could have never gave him up so I know if he was alive I would have never went that route but sometimes in my weird mind I think you know like if I die I'm afraid to meet him he might be mad at me you know what I mean like sometimes I get these weird thoughts that you know he's mad at me but uh you know I did what I needed to do in in a lot of cases um that's not even true when I cooperated I thought the same thing about the title yeah I love the man Tilton of course I love everything about it and when I cooperated I thought about him and I said he put me up he must be going through agony he's a real man's man he's going to the core right like we said before it took out he did amazing things too I said he must be sick about this now he might have been sick but I found out through people on the street who was well I'm still friendly with and all over the place he never said one bad word about me and he said John [ __ ] up he betrayed him he broke goes in Usher and he broke this guy yeah and uh that was his answer to the whole thing about me cooperating you know I when I was with him I was pinched on with Michael Alley Boy on a double murder they offered us everything under the sun I never cooperated 52-quarter appearances yeah two three different trials before I we wound up beating the case and uh so I never I never imagined to do that either because I always thought either I'm going to die in the street or I'm going to go to prison yeah that's the reality if you're a real man you're gonna know yeah sometimes you're doing the killing sometimes you want to get killed of course so sooner or later that reality you know if you understand that you can walk around with your chest out guys who wait for real they're always they're like little weasels they're always scared they're always worried they're always I mean and those are the guys who are real betrayers because they always carry a secret I lied to him I [ __ ] him yeah I held back money so you're always scared in your own mind I wonder if they find out and plus there's always the guy that knows they're going to cooperate and does what they do knowing what they're gonna do he's got a license this guy's out there now that cooperated that didn't even get pinched they just thought they were going to get pinched or they thought they were going to get killed yeah and they went to the FBI I think it's only francis's son Michael yeah Michael the other one oh yeah yeah he wired up on his father got out at 95 years old got out he wired up on him right drove him around to meet him yeah I know I know the kid I had to put him back in prison yeah oh my God I went to I used to go visit my father was in Allenwood Sonny and I used to go visit them together with him what about this guy Johnny penisi he never even got arrested he he cooperated he thought they were going to kill him he cooperated you know I don't know I mean and there's so many different cases but cooperation listen has another story I talked about fat cat Nichols I talked about people I did time the fact that like uh cat Nichols I mean he was a man's man every after he cooperated he had a label they sent them to Clinton because he got court busted again yeah he walked around Clinton yeah nobody bothered it nobody Fox with him he was like a king over there yeah they're afraid of him yeah listen I did what I did I live with it I got to live with it you know what and you know what and the bottom line is I'm content today you know I was never content in that life I mean I was it was always about the next school the next dish it was always never nothing was never enough I never had enough money I never had enough girlfriends I never had I never had enough of anything he was always the next one the next one and the next one and I have that same problem I can't get enough girlfriend yeah they can't get it let me ask you a question seriously do you miss being the underboss you got to miss it a little bit come on guys so much hours I know what you're asking better than anybody sitting in there I had a ton most people in the street don't even know how much power I had I know how much power yeah it was not only because of the killing it was construction making money unions all kinds you had the and I I was pretty good at it it's I loved the life and I loved a lot of the people in the life I don't I didn't love them all but I loved A lot of people in their lives I missed that I missed that part of it um New York people ask me if I could care less about New York especially the way it is now because my family and my friends and say Sammy if you ever came back to Neil today you would throw up it's not nowhere near the same no tallies now they bought it and I'm not got nothing wrong with Chinese but it's a Chinese restaurant so it nothing's the same I don't I don't I don't remember what they changed John's Club it's all it's all Guyanese now yeah old Guyanese in Ozone Park it's all gone it's all nail salons even the one on Mulberry Street I was there it's a shoe store shoe store yeah I was there I was at the river night I did some filming there I went there I was there a couple of months ago it's a store now that's the building Georgia on the building next door he owned a bunch of those buildings yeah but now you know I'm listening and then now I go into the program and I I was uncomfortable you know I'm I I'm living in Michigan I'm living in Idaho what the [ __ ] am I doing tonight what I I told the guy when they were sending me to Idaho what do I know about iron potatoes they grow potatoes then when I listen when I went out I gave them a little time and what yeah now it's an Irish name now uh at least I kept it in Italian I tell you why I was doing time with this guy Junior Moran he was the guy of Philadelphia he was in the war he was the flower killer you know real flowers to the guy's house during Christmas and it was his gun in that thing yeah and I did time when he was a crazy bastard he got life without parole so I figured ain't gonna use the name so I used Jimmy Morin right so when I got to Arizona with that [ __ ] name I I said let me get a place where I'm comfortable so I drove all the way out to peso and all the way the [ __ ] out in the desert and they had these little mini farms five acres six acre you could buy a mini Farm I had a farm once I said this is a great thing no get a mini Farm I'll build a barn I built a little house there I could maybe just hang and be comfortable a guy in a tractor when I get out of the car pulls up on the other side of the road he said man so I look at him he says you're looking to buy a mini Farm I said yeah I don't consider me what's your name I said Jimmy and he says his name he said no not just Jimmy you see where I introduced myself first and they said what's your last name Moran Irish I said yeah yeah she says good old Irish boys good thing we don't get none of those games this [ __ ] I would like to tell her listen I'm Italian I'm saying oh I'm gonna be your [ __ ] big neighbor yeah you don't like me everywhere I went you know the accent it was like I was like a fish out of wood yeah the first words out of your mouth well are you in the witness protection for I'm living tonight or people are asking me you saw you're not in the witness protection program no the only thing is the girls love the accent but I still was uncomfortable and then I went back to Michigan then I signed out I signed out and I went back to Michigan and uh because my daughter was in Michigan State University she's a college graduate thank God you know it's so funny because not to when she was little and I got pinched they were in my house they had a search warrant for my house in in 95 when they pinched me in 95 they raided my house and she's a little she's only two and she's in diapers and they're in my house I mean this is how we lived I mean you think about how and I'm sitting on my couch yeah and my daughter's in diapers and they're ripping my and they're searching my house and my daughter's going Daddy are these your friends Daddy are these your friends you know it was it so anyway she's in college so I'm living in Michigan and and I get a call from a friend of mine who was in the treatment center business right so equal I'm I'm 60 at the time so he calls me up and he says to me listen I just spoke to the owner of the treatment center I worked for and I told him because he knew he knew where I was he was one very very closely so he knew the whole deal he said I told the guy your story and we think you could be a good counselor because of your life experience and you're in recovery you're cleaning a lot of years you know we you know these young gang bangers and everything maybe you could help them you know you did a lot of time you knew a lot you know Sammy the bull you knew John Gotti your father was a wise guy they they liked that the kids you know so he says but you got to go to school I said come on man I'm six years old I got to go back to school he goes listen he goes just come down here he goes we'll pay for the school and come down here and you know what I sat back and I said you know what it's time you know and I so I called up to because I was still with the FBI they were still giving me a siping and everything because I was still testifying and I called up the FBI and I said listen I'm I'm leaving I'm going to Florida I said I got to offer for a job they really didn't want me to go I said listen I'm gone because listen when this is over and you just kick me to the curb who's gonna pay my rent I said no who's gonna what do I do then so I packed up I got my cat Mikey the cat me and Mikey got in the car I drove to Florida and I went back to school and I became a counselor in the treatment center and this is you know like you're talking about stories like yeah when I came to Arizona when I got out of prison this last time yeah in 2017 I went to Target and I was gonna buy sneakers so there's a leather couch and I'm sitting on the leather couch and I'm getting sneakers and trying them on this older woman she comes up next to me and she says you mind if you move over if I can sit on this couch she had boots in them so I said no I'm I moved out when she had boots and she's putting oats on and she's talking to me and I'm talking that she says you have a New York accent I said yeah yeah I do where'd you come from Brooklyn she says I came here years ago I was in New York in the Gotti era so she says do you know who he is I said uh no not really I said I think I heard his name got it what you say his name was Gotti so I said nah maybe I I don't know yeah and uh so she takes her phone I didn't even know what these photos were yeah she takes her phone and she goes on the thing and she strolls a little bit and she shows me and there's John Gotti hen yeah and says he looks familiar but I really don't know I think I don't know he comes from New York too yeah yeah from Brooklyn oh yeah no I I don't really know and she goes like this she flips it yeah the next page is me yeah she looks at me and she looks at the picture it looks at me and says are you sip in a boat I said yes I am she says oh my God my husband's not going to believe this she says she calls him up on the phone while we're sitting there yeah and she says you'll never guess who I'm sitting next to and he must ask that she says no it's amiable I mean it yeah she says could you lean next to me so I can see your face sound like me I'm like a jerk so I lead over the public stupid face in the picture and I hear him on the phone oh my god get the [ __ ] home right away yeah he got a little nervous didn't you get outed by a news reporter in Arizona yes right I heard that story before the second one right you got yeah before the second case you got an outed by a news reporter right I had a pool company yeah it was a construction company yeah my wife came to me we had a restaurant Uncle Sal's Italian Restaurant and my wife said there's a news media came down and they want to do an interview with you and I told them no he's not doing any interviews and I don't know where he is so she says he like threatened me to say I'm gonna do an article we know he's here we know we know this is his restaurant with you we're going to put the restaurant in where you live everybody so if he does something maybe you could avoid some of that I said he told you that was like threatening you yeah yeah I said all right all right let me think about it while I'm selling them let me think about it she says oh my God he just pulled up right in front of my office had a construction with a yard and everything heavy equipment so I look is that amp yeah all right go out the back door get in your car I was in the parking lot called the back way what are you gonna do no I'll talk to him I let him in my secretary let's be and I'm talkative and actually what the [ __ ] do you want bro you haunted me down you attracted my wife the children I'm not threatening people I would put an article out if I just told her that if I if you would help me a little bit give me an interview or something I won't put all that information in all right I'll talk to you a little bit what do you want to know what do you want you know little things about the program about this about that and give me some pictures no I don't want to give you pictures I'm running around now and I want to give you pictures he says you gotta your pictures on on the book we're not here's what kind of picture of you I'll stand by the window the son of Beyond me you could take it from the back take a silhouette you want to take a silhouette I'll give you that he said okay so he took pictures of me silhouette I gave him a little bit of an interview I got in touch with the agents I got in touch with everybody try to get the [ __ ] off my back they wouldn't budge so I gave him the interview a little bit of an interview and then they changed everything because he asked me a question in the interview he says you know that John Gotti has a Contractor on you I say I I don't know about none of that [ __ ] I said I I don't know but what about he said well what are you going to do if uh he sends people down here so I said don't you think that's a stupid question yeah what are you gonna do what am I going to do protect yourself I'm going to protect myself I'm going to do whatever I got to do what do you think will happen people who are going to be in body bags either me or them does that make you happy I mean it's a stupid question I don't know how to answer that question now anything is how he puts it in the newspaper he says Sammy the bull is threatening all the gangsters in New York come down and kill me you punk bastard I didn't use the word I didn't say a [ __ ] word it's got to sell papers yeah yeah he really stopped before hugging them came down that was before right that was before yeah harking them came down after the article yeah yeah after the article you know it's the best they they found me yeah they were all over me hook wanted Sally to do the hit because I didn't know Sally so Sally was a little nervous and said well we go together so he said no I'm not going to go now he knows me and as soon as he sees me I'm telling you he's carrying it how could you miss hunk yeah look at his name but his name was he says I'll tell you he's carrying a gun yeah and he's gonna not run he's going to shoot it out he's really tried to kill us and he's good at it bro I'm not going near him so when he told that he scared Sally yeah so Sally didn't want to come near me either now they got me they didn't make the move yeah then trying to make a bomb a thing that spins around and shoots shotgun shells and they're [ __ ] around with this for months and months and months until I got pinched in Arizona and then they got pinched in New York and then for peace Sally they got pinched for that yeah but Sally while they're working on this [ __ ] Sally gets invited for drugs and he cooperates talking Pete though no yeah he says I'm on a hit right now yeah he ain't done yet somebody hit on Sammy the bull but you know what and I think about it all that I mean you know like I said earlier I'm contented you know and I you know we live even I mean I was never on your skill but I we live big lives even though I lived a big life being Andy son I mean when I was a kid out partying money tons of money celebrities you know Cod Blanche front row seats never waited online all that stuff and then you know it was great and then it wasn't you know then it wasn't you know it's like drugs they were all fun and games for me at one time and then they weren't you know what I mean right and then I had to stop and that's how I that's how I looked at that life it was it was sort of like I had a it was all fun and games and you know it was all great and then it wasn't but along the way you know I heard a lot of people you know just like you did you know I made people's mothers cry I mean I we clipped my sister's husband you know to this day my sister still is [ __ ] up over it but you know what at the time he did something wrong you know and like sometimes I think about myself like I'm sure you too you know like sometimes I have no empathy like I don't give a [ __ ] like it's I don't know maybe I was raised that way it was implanted in my brain like sometimes I want to feel remorse about things I did and I just can't and do your experience do you experience that whatever doubt well we're almost like we're in the military we are told to do certain things you will never avoid the mail and I know never and my father wasn't either yeah right but he does she he's got nothing machine yeah we had you know but when we were told to do something we had to do it we did it that's part of the life yeah it's not I thank God I've never went out and killed an innocent man a woman or a child right that would have really [ __ ] me up but I didn't yeah so it was within the life if you broke the rules and the boss came to me Sammy he's got to go he went I had to do it exactly back then what are you going to do a stranger yeah that's who does it in the month so I don't I don't feel that I feel the same way as you I mean of course some of them uh I feel bad but some of them I feel when people criticize me every time I say this but if I looked you in the Box I said bro you broke the [ __ ] rules and look what you did you hurt me you knew I would be the guy wind up killing you yeah you couldn't not you didn't have to break the rules yeah exactly you [ __ ] yourself up look behind me those people cry and you [ __ ] them up and you [ __ ] me up exactly I really don't wanna I didn't want to be the guy sure right I like to keep they put you in that position put me in that position and now I'm not if you break the rules I'm not dying with you yeah yeah I I don't break the rules I do what I got to do and whatever that's what my only reason to tell me he goes listen whoever whoever he clipped or whatever got clipped deserved to get clipped and he told me he used to tell me this all the time too he saw he used to sit me down tell me listen I'm telling you right now God forbid I ever disappear would they find me in the street just forget about it you still tell me it goes because she can't you might be able to clip one or two people but you can't fight an army you used to tell me just as hard as that's going to be he said just forget about it he used to tell me all the time and remember Patty Mac yeah sure remember they clicked party Mac and then a month later they clipped his son because his son was going around talking about how he was going to get evil yeah and then they walked in the bar and they shot The Paddy Mac's son in the head that genovese's he was a captain with them here's how I tell my family till today I said listen if somebody comes down in the mafia it kills me don't be mad at him he was given an order yeah he had to do it and I broke the rule so just say my father knew the rules he broke a rule he lived by the sword he died by the sword here it's over I'm not mad at anybody mind your [ __ ] business and go on with your life I don't think we have to worry about that anymore today you guys out there and busting grapes no more no no no no just what's going on out there yeah that's what that people tell me are you worried I'm not worried I mean am I going to go in my neighborhood and walk around I'm not going to just put it in their face but I'm not worried I'm not worried I mean first of all I don't think anybody's out there anymore guys like you are gone there's no more Sammy the Bulls out there there's no more John Gotti's there's no more fat in these they're not out there and I want no more titles there's no they're gone yeah they are they're gone I mean there's the guys out there that are killers yeah John conigley is a killer Genie they're guys around yeah guys around you that are still out there with Killers but they're not going to do nothing no they're done they're done yeah first of all there's so much kind of confidential employment these phones everybody's got what about camera camera what about this the other day I was talking to my daughter about Ben Howard she says me what's what's the first movie I want to see I said when I was a kid my father took me to see Ben Hall with Charlton Heston 15 minutes later I'm on my phone and there's all things of Ben harp hopping up on my YouTube the phone listens to you there's old things about men so who's going to do one every time you you like you do a search or you do something yeah you'll see like if you do a search for a diet pill yeah right all of a sudden you'll get 15 000 commercials about heck I know how are you sure and what about the Cabbage this camera's all over there's heavy look what's his name that got clipped in Staten Island what's his name the the why the boss the gambino guy he got clear they caught the guy on the with a phone uh camera in the Bell look so they can't the football player I forgot his name there football player Oh on the 49 oh I know it's Hernandez and then he kills himself he had a phone yeah they know where the guy was where he got it and they follow his phone it was that there it's it's crazy I'm just squid I don't have to live that way I don't have to worry about like the last time I got pinched home five in the morning the bell rang you know who it is I don't have to live that way you know I sit on my couch today I go to work every day work in the detox you know I mean the fentanyl today is killing all I just found the kid I just found the kid the other day at work I work in a detox so every 30 minutes I got to go do rounds to make sure nobody's having seizures and all that because I'm a clinical uh technician and it detox the other day I opened up a door and the kid's dead in the bed over those Farms coming out of his nose coming out his stupid kid 20 years he smuggled drugs in the detox the old deed right in the bed so you know it's the job is gratifying but today it's a little tougher now with all this fentanyl because it's in everything and a lot of kids are dying out there but you know I don't have to worry I'm not hurting nobody I'm not robbing nobody in my build I might watch meth no my needs most of my needs are being met so I'm happy about that but uh I'm content you know I'm out here look you sent me I'm having a great time I mean I've never been a million years thought we'd be doing something like this if someone would have told you 30 40 years ago that you were going to cooperate and be Sammy the Bulls podcast you would have probably shot the guy in the head yeah I want to change I want to send you out of your mind exactly me too I'm not a publicist yeah it never was cooperative and me I was I was no drug goddy I was quiet the agent said you were Stern you were kind of stern you were a stone guy I was a little bit I know like you were Stern yes absolutely and you were quiet I told guys if you didn't smile much you know I didn't see your smile much I responded a little bit I smiled a lot but I told a guy there's guys who came to me I'll give you a guy came to me I was in prison with him I grew I grew up with him he went to prison then he came out he said Sammy so I wanna be with you again I said however you've been away for 15 years I haven't seen you I don't know I don't know you anymore for the 15 years I hear you [ __ ] around with drugs in prison I don't know if you're on drugs now I don't know if you're wired up I don't know I'm not saying you are I'm just saying I don't know you're right so I'm I'm gonna need time stay in the street I'll talk with you you know and then there was a couple of guys who wanted to be with me tough guys they were dealing drugs I said listen uh I don't deal drug and I'm not against it there's a lot of guys who deal drugs don't be with me be with them go ahead I wish you good luck but if you're going to be with me you got to give me your word no drug dealing you can't take drugs and if you do you know you're going to regret it I'm going to make you regret it so that's the deal to Stone Light if you're gonna come on board you tell me this is what you're gonna do and Nikki cowboy and uh hook didn't live up to that no and then we'll wound up dead so when it came to things like that I was pretty strict about it because here's my theory you come in and now you're taking drugs now you taking different kind of heat than I take all of a sudden we're getting pinched by the [ __ ] DEA I [ __ ] up all my crew I'm sitting in jail with you you're in my crew and how do I answer you you said Sammy this guy's on drugs you didn't chase him that's why we're sitting here and it is my [ __ ] fault yeah so I want to run my ship yeah like what's his name uh the kid who says I didn't I told him not we want to do an interview with him you mentioned him earlier uh flesh of family wish flesh came with me he gave him his nickname yeah Tommy flesh oh yeah but I told him yeah I said flesh I really like you you're a good guy but you're not a fit for my crew and then he came to us and robbed everybody right I said you're not a fit for us so listen go with someone else yeah I'll always be your friend I'm not going to bed about you but you're not a fit for here believe me and if you're not gonna work yeah you're gonna go and you're gonna go bro yeah and then he can't and then he got hooked up with Tony Lee and then he got hooked up with Tony Lee and you guys are still with you yeah it was good he was good for a while yeah he was good until he wasn't you know he just like to take money and you know jungle money he's a good guy he's a lot of fun maybe I'm still friends yeah I did a couple of things we could even play with him but when we when he comes in I'll take out a pick out a guns he said you gave him his nickname you gave him the nickname flesh yeah why what the [ __ ] did he do that again I don't know he said Sammy the bull gave me my nickname and big Louie is took his son to his first hockey game and the kid almost went to the NHL his son Johnny he said big Louie took his son to the first hockey a big Louis ago guy a lot of guys asked me you think you made a mistake when you put him in there oh he's a good guy no I didn't make a mistake and now um before I went away in 96 I saw him in a club in in Brooklyn in a restaurant I forgot to name him the restaurant I can't think of it so and he was in there and he told me that uh he they pissed my he's one of the guys that told me they passed my name or they just passed my name around and I was going to get strained out he told me big Louie told me I liked him I I never imagined I remember when you straightened him out yeah I trained them out I made him like I took when I I was a captain when I got promoted he John said who's who do you want to take over the crew and I said big Louie yeah and uh I didn't make a mistake then and I know about him for years and years and years I know for sure he was good he was the right pick he was a good guy and anybody I talked to says that yeah all right guy this was a great talk I believe so we're gonna wind up and we can do other things in the future I like I said I got I I think the world to you thank you and see it's so comfortable talking to you because it's it's me too vice versa I'm good because it's you know one tough guy to another one gangster to another it's so refreshing and good when you're talking when the guy's a [ __ ] fraud or a fake or a different name that people are out there now pieces you know and I feel comfortable to you like you know I listen I I knew of you and then I knew you and you know I always respected you you know I always looked up to you you know I I remember like yesterday in The Raven night I used to stand and I talk about it I know I keep mentioning it but it was just I loved my job so it was so it was so the way it should be like listen I remember when I was exposed to Nikki carazzo when he was with my father now he's a gangster Nikki I love Nick yeah yeah he used to stand with my father he never left my father's side that's my father went home never left my father the way it's supposed to be we're gonna have to go all right and it's not yet but it's been a pleasure my pleasure and we'll go on I hope so and uh we'll see what we got to do so hi I'm Anthony rugiano and thanks for watching I'm Sammy no no that comes later all right how's this is this good hi I'm Anthony ruggiano Jr I'm Sammy the bull gravano and thanks for watching table in the back adios [ __ ] okay [Applause] all right

Channel: Anthony Ruggiano

Views: 245,331

Keywords: gambino, family, John Gotti, Sammy the bull, Sammy Gravano, Fat Andy Ruggiano, john alite, gambino crime family, mafia, italian mafia, Anthony ruggiano, Anthony ruggiano Junior, Sammy the bull gravano, John Gotti Jr, COSA NOSTRA, MICHAEL FRANZESE, GAMBINO CRIME FAMILY, GAMBINO FAMILY, ITALIAN MAFIA, jimmy calandra, recovery, addiction help, addiction recovery, anthony ruggiano jr, goodfellas, richie gotti, cosa nostra, American mafia, Crime boss, Sal Polisi, joey merlino

Id: OlWwsfzT58s

Length: 60min 11sec (3611 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 20 2023