Growing Up Gambino: Anthony Ruggiano From Crime To Recovery with Ret NYPD Detective Bill Courtney

[Music] Mur Mur uh welcome to another edition of the proper today uh my guest is Anthony rugiano uh we're here at church Studio in Tulsa Oklahoma thanks for taking the ride out uh Anthony appreciate you coming here uh today we're going to talk about your life your life in the life and and how you uh came to the road of I guess of redemption and and uh are now enjoying a much better life and um why don't we just start off with the basics where are you from where were you born first let me thank you for having me on your on your podcast and I'm enjoying Tulsa all right it's an experience very different from oone Park Queens yeah just a little bit yeah but you know I'm enjoying it um how I started how did I start I was actually born into that the life you know as could say so you know I was born in 19553 you know I'm old but I I look young thank God but uh so and and just so happens that's the same year my father became a m member of of the American Mafia so Alber Anastasia was the boss and my father always used to say as I was growing up that was the best year of his life because he became a maid member of the mob and a father lucky me you know and and what was it like though what was like the child so you're a little kid you know start having those earliest memories 3 4 years old what was it like it was a well it was different you know it was I always knew something was different like I always had a feeling something was different I didn't know what it was you know um I always had more than stuff than my cousins had um and I always knew something was different I didn't know what it was and how I knew stuff was different cuz when I was with my father and my family and we would go out places or he would take me places he got treated different like I I always felt when he walked in a room the atmosphere changed even as a little child I I I you know I knew something was different we would go out he would get treated different people would like a restaurant restaurants the owners would sit with us we wouldn't have to wait for a table um I would go to his bar with him on Saturday mornings and you know everybody made a fuss when he walked in people would stick money in my pocket and I always knew something was different but I didn't know what right and you know and I and compared to my friends fathers and it's funny because when I went to school you know they would ask me what your father did for a living you know you have them classes what does your father do it for a living we're going to talk about it so I would go home and I was like seven eight years old nine and I would say d what do you you know they want to know what you do for a living and he would tell me he worked in a dry cleaner right and I knew at that age that was not true you know but I said it anyway you know but I rolled with it and until I found out the truth so were there any ear early indications that you know like maybe there there was something wrong too in life like cops come to the house or uh proms between your parents fighting over stuff was there any of that kind of there was a lot of trauma on my part so I was the oldest of three and uh yeah there was trauma you know cops coming in the house um you know him getting taken out but you know back then like we talked about there was a lot of corruption in in in and and we're talking about the late 50s early 60s you know I remember he cops would come in the house and he I remember one incident they came in and I remember him as clear as day telling my mother give me all the money money in that you have in the house and then he left and like 2 hours later he came back um and there was a lot of trauma because now my mother which I didn't realize at the time she was 19 when she had me he was 26 he had just came out of prison he was already a wise guy and he was uh he was a street guy and then my mother would drag me all over Brooklyn looking from him like looking in bar windows and and uh and I remember one incident like my mother to the day she died God rest of the Soul she couldn't believe I remembered it I remember going in an apartment building with her I went to about 8 and uh she rang a doorbell and this young girl answered the phone the door and she told me that's your father's girlfriend and they started fighting in the hallway like cuz she was only a kid she was in her 20s and they started fighting in the hallway and I remember I was screaming Ma you know so it was um it's very uncomfortable childhood let me put it to you that way it's a very uncomfortable childhood yeah because you you you don't know what's wrong but you see little indicators and obviously something like that you want to think of your parents as Invincible all caring and you're in a situation like that it kind of yeah and my father was very I mean he was this big gangster but he was very affectionate he was a he was a good father I mean you know he he he was very affectionate my mother had three of us now and she was very unavailable leave me alone cuz she was just wrapped up in this relationship with him and all I remember is her talking on the phone smoking Chesterfield regulars one after the other and you know we were just in the way you know and and so it was like hot and cold like I remember when he left the house I would scream come back come back cuz I knew she was not available so and uh and but he you know he took us to baseball games we had a normal sort of a semi-normal childhood yeah um I think you you know too didn't didn't he take you to bars and you started meeting some like real characters made guys like well when I became so when I when I when I you know he tght how he taught me how to fight was I was getting I got I got transferred from public Catholic School to public school and when I got to public school I was getting bullied I would come on with black eyes and my mother would come and pick me up so but one day I came out of school my mother wasn't there so it was either fight or keep getting beat up so I chose to fight and the reason why my mother wasn't there was cuz he came home and he stopped her he said where you going she said I'm going to pick Anthony up and he said no you ain't picking Anthony up no more so what he did was he went out and bought a heavy bag and a speed bag and he taught me and my brother how to throw punches so when I was 13 and I drifted off my block and I started going into the neighbor then I found out he was a wise guy through older guys and they would whisper that's fat Andy's son and that's how I found out and then he started taking me to bars and to clubs and I met John Gotti I met uh and I started meeting all these other Wise Guys in Oz on Park and all the Social Clubs and the and and the bars you know I heard you speak once to an incident where I guess the principal have been calling home and your mother would answer what you know uh tell the principal yeah she was aware that you were having issues in school and uh and then he demanded your father come right what was the story behind that so that's that's a good story so I was in Richmond Hill High School at the time and the dean was this big German guy called Mr stock feather and he was big this guy and we were like starting to dress down cuz she still had to sort to get dressed up back then but we My Generation we starting to dress down a little bit and um so he told me he's the dean was tired of talking to my mother and he wanted my father to come up and I and I said okay you know so I went home and I told my my father goes what does he want with me and I said he wants to talk to you he doesn't want to talk to Mommy no more so I'm in the classroom and they call me out to go to the Dean's office and I and I had a t-shirt on which you weren't supposed to wear to school but I wore it anyway cuz you know I didn't give a [ __ ] so I had a t-shirt on and he don't know my father from a ho in world this guy and I my father's sitting down and I walk into the Dean's office and this guy grabs me and says didn't I tell you that you can't dress like that and he pinned me up against the wall that that wasn't a good move my father jumped up next thing you know my father's choking him throwing him on the floor and Chaos in the Dean's office I'm jumping on my father and he scream what kind of father are you and needless to say I got suspended indefinitely after that incident that was the end of my education but that was the second time I never saw him perpetrate any violence something that was the second time the first time was a few years before that and that's how I knew things were different we he went to buy a car with this guy that was one him this guy pacy that was like his partner in bars the guy um he he was a Jewish fell he had the his liquor licenses but they were Partners in businesses so we go he went to buy car so we go to the dealership and whatever and I'm a kid and um we're sitting in the office now and my father asked like a question not a dumb question but like a a question that maybe he shouldn't have been like you know and the guy the salesman made like an off-handed comment you know and my father said what did you say and he leaned across the desk and he gra and he grabbed the guy by the tie and he pulled him over he goes I'll break your [ __ ] ass and he and he flung him and and he said let's go and I was like you know I'm like 10 years old I'm like what the hell so that that was my childhood right right crazy uh that and I also heard you speak to us a little you were at a little league game the day a newspaper article came out I think some indictments came down your dad was mentioned and how did so how did that unfold I know your your brother found out right so what happened was I already knew my father was now I'm I'm I'm 16 at the time my brother's 13ish you know but I already knew who my father was that he was a mob guy and everything and what happened was Eugene gold he was the D he was the Brooklyn D I don't know if you remember Eugene gold and they had a they had uh the lucazi family that my my father was doing a lot of business with they had a junkyard and they had a bug in the in the trailer and it was called the gold bug and all this big indictments came down and it was on the front page of the Daily News all about my father and everything so I came home that day and my brother says uh is this true what they said about daddy and I said yeah it's true so I went upstairs and my brother had a little Le game that night and my father went to all our little league games like he just went to all of them and and I went upstairs and he says to me did I but read the paper and I said yeah so we went downstairs and my father said you read the newspaper and my brother said yeah he goes you still want me to go to the basball game with you and my brother goes yeah of course I want you to come to the game so so now the fathers they really didn't know they were little league fathers and my father's at all the games so we go to the game me my brother and my father we get out of the car and all the fathers jump off the grand oh Andy what's going on we didn't know and you know now they're roll up his ass cuz for some reason they just love mob guys you know they don't know that they're Psychopathic murderers that you know they're all up his ass and and uh and eventually he did started doing them favors you know who who got older whose son got into carpet's Union who got into laborers union you know and and uh but they made a big stink over him after they found out who he was and now when you were in your teens let's say you 16 17 you could walk out in the neighborhood people on knew you right they knew your dad was there bars and stuff you could walk in at a young age I drank in all the bars I drank in all the I was fat Andy's son nobody proved me and anyway I had a fake D draft card back then you just in case I went to like a strange bar you know you cuz there was no picture ID back then right paper Li paper yeah so you know we were buying draft card I'll never forget it I had I had some crazy name on my first drift card the Travis Lewis or some name but uh yeah no nobody bothered me nobody proofed me I was fat Andy son and and uh you know I'm going to the Copa I'm going out now I'm 17 18 I'm going out with girls 25 26 year old girls cuz now I'm 16 I'm making a 100 I'm I'm working in a blackjack game I'm getting paid $100 a day it's 1970 $100 a day was a lot of money so now I'm drinking in bars I'm leaving girls $20 tips to they don't care I'm 17 years old I'm taking girls to the Copa Cabana it was just a you know it was just a wild time but you know I got lost in all that stuff I got I I lost my my own identity right you were his you were his son not you I was fat Andy's son yeah you know I was fat and then I put together my own little crew because you know a lot of kids in the neighbor you know they they wanted to they loved my father you know they and uh I started putting together my own little crew and I started getting arrested you know doing now I'm writing numbers I'm working in blackjack games I'm you know it was like the minor leagues of the mob which they don't do no more you know back then you start writing numbers you know was that what was your first gig in the in the industry as it were well my first job was my so after my father agreed that I could work for him he took me the next day to this this guy Philly the pimp was his nickname I I don't believe he was a pimp I think that was his nickname he might have been a pimp back at some point right and he had a blackjack game on Merck Road in Long Island in Elmont and I that was my first illegal job working in this blackjack game and then from there I went to a dice game CU there was no casinos back then so the mob had a lot of big dice games every family it was like crazy it was so structured you know like it was a whole culture so yeah cuz this is even before Atlantic City oh waybe yeah way this yeah this is before Atlantic City this is right before Atlantic City so tomorrow it was like so we had we had dice games $300 limit games and every family had like a so we were partners with uh uh the geneves family we so every family had a slot like there was a game almost 24 hours a day but it was structured where your family had had like we had a 12 to4 right and then the lucases had 5 to n and so there was a crap game All Around the Clock so and different sections of the city so I worked in crap games then I started writing numbers then I started selling untaxed cigarettes you know and and everything progressed um there's a lot of money in the untax right I mean in New York was probably half the the cost of the pack was probably crazy money even to this day not to the I mean it was back then cigarettes were cheap and it was still crazy money and uh and that's was my schooling that was my education and so now your father been he' been made since 53 or so you say right um what and how how was he an earner what was his main stay I mean and and the progression of it from well in the beginning he had a lot of horse rooms back back in the day in the 50s and 60s he had a lot of single and horse rooms he had a major number business he had a good crew with him they were hijackers cuz everybody was hijacking trucks back then you know that you were on the job Kennedy Airport was like a was like an ATM machine so you know uh so he had a crew with him you know he had he had a really he was a soldier with a really big crew that later on all these guys became bosses under bosses captains Council Nikki kazza Lenny Di Maria Joseph kazza I'm sure their names are familiar with sure and they were so they were they were just making money every which way I mean they were they were doing everything whatever they could do and you know he was getting a piece and you know and he was doing what he needed to do and now you your dad had the reputation for being a guy not to mess with uh put a lot of work in were you ever aware did he ever tell you like how you know like I did this hit or that hit or did he yeah so as I got older and I started you know working for him and and then started going around me he started then when he started telling me about things he did and like we would go we would go to mberry Street we would go like to the ravenite um and there would be a guy there and he would tell me I did a piece of work with him you know uh and he would tell me stuff that he did and he started telling me about homicides he committed it's funny because not funny but so he used to tell me about this homicide he committed in daylight in the florist in the early 60s and we did some research and we actually found the newspaper article about that hit um him and another guy did did a hit for car o gamb was another wise guy that they believed was an A forat and they killed him in the in broad daylight in the in the um in his Florest in Brooklyn but he became a made member because of hits he did because when Albert Anastasia was the boss who was the high executioner they strained out my father when the book were closed so when the books are that you know when the books are closed only if somebody dies they fill a slot or a special case and he happened to be a special case so he put a lot of work in for them sometimes he said he did a little too much for them yeah yeah and who was his main partner I know Tony Lee Tony Lee was his main guy um they were Partners from when they were teenagers uh you know they all grew up together in East New York but they whatever they made if they got 10 cents they took a nickel each you know they were they were strong come into the same family same time and all that or yeah it's funny because Tony Lee Tony Lee's Uncle Willie had a uncle name Willie he was with the geneses he was a wise guy with the geneses and but U so when the books got reopened in the in after Alan Anastasia got murdered and they reopened the books in 56 I believe or 57 Tony Lee had a choice to go get straightened out with the geneves his Uncle Willie was going to propose him or my father and he chose my father cuz they were partners and they were like brothers and he got straightened out with the gambinos did he ever tell you how many people did he ever say like a number cuz my father yeah I know he told me about of six homicides he was involved in but there was probably there probably might have been more cuz he wasn't the shooter on all of them he was like the driver or the backup but uh you know like he told me one story this guy uh Joe Baron his name was he so he was a little old man too so he tells me uh I went on a piece of work with him he said uh yeah so we we line up we supposed to hit one guy we line up three guys against the wall and one of them had to go and and uh Joe Baron shot the guy like three or four times in the back he said but I went and I had a Cy gr guy I used to call it the copy and he shot the guy in it so these were my father son conversations he used to say he used to tell me you don't have you always have to CP the gr I he just to tell me and then another thing he told so Frank I'll tell you so Frank Castello famous right get shot in the hallway the gun grazes his head so if you looked at the chin who actually did the shooting right he and my father at that stage of they were both around this they resembled each other black hair stocky yeah and my father was getting picked up back then for every mob homicide they would scoop up all of them they scooped them up for shooting Frank Castello and took him to the hallway cuz they had some kind of ey witness there that saw a guy and they took him to the hallway and made him run in and out of the hallway so so he says but it wasn't me I go are you sure it wasn't you he goes if it was me he would have been dead he told me cuz I would have cooped the gr him whoa he used to tell me and my friends that story all the time you know it's a crazy life because he used to tell me even with murder he would say to me you know there's a right way and a wrong way to kill somebody he used to tell me you only this is how nuts it is he us to tell me it only counts when you wake up in the morning you get dress you leave your house you go do a piece of work and then you come home play with your kids and have dinner with your wife because that's the only time it counts if you do it when you're drunk or out of anger it don't count right and to him if he told me yeah see that guy Bill he's a good guy that know I know that you committed a murder that was like the code like he's a good kid you know he did work right yeah and there there was a time where you father wanted you to kill a guy which is another strange thing he wanted you to kill a kid named Chris right what was that all about was it so after my sister's husband disappeared my sister started a while later my sister started dating this kid Chris from the neighborhood from oone Park but he was just a regular kid he wasn't mobbed up he didn't know nothing about the mob he didn't know what he knew nothing about the mob he was just a kid from the neighborhood they hooked up you know they were [ __ ] around with drugs the kid had a stolen car my sister got in it and they got arrested and my the kid had a stolen credit card on him they're in the stolen car they had some weed so my sister gets arrested we get her out of jail and I go visit now my father come see me come see me I go see him I tell him he knows some of it would happened I tell him what happened and he tells me you know what you got to do here right I looked at him I said what he goes you know what you got to do here this kid doesn't even he knows who I am right I said he don't know who who you are he doesn't know nothing about this life he goes that's my daughter and you know what you got to do here I says so I looked at him I go you know what we'll do that I said we'll kill everybody she goes with till she meets a brain surgeon we already just killed her husband now you want me to kill her boyriend I says no I forget I'll take care of because he used to have cuz he had no lyrics cuz they he had so he used to he used to talk with his esophagus I I'll take care of it don't don't do nothing and and he got angry so I went back to the neighborhood and I sent for this kid I said listen you better get you better go because you're in trouble you got a big headache here you don't come around get stay out of the neighborhood and you better go and the reason why is I knew the kid if the kid was mobbed up he might have went but he I knew he wasn't and the kid left now I don't know I didn't ask my father cuz now I don't see the kid for months I don't know if the kid got killed he didn't get killed but he's gone I get a letter from a guy in jail that's in Upstate New York one of my friends and he says Hey list listen some kid Chris just hit the yard he's going around telling people that he used to date your sister so I said oh thank God the kids alive what did he get pinched for do you know Robin you know you know Robin [ __ ] he was a drug addict K became a drug addict and uh and and he was up stay in a in a medium security prison and another kid actually the guy that wrote me his name was Chris too and he said there's this kid Chris in here running around the yard saying he went out with fat Andy's daughter but but that's uh that's the mob you know here's a father and then you know and later on in life you know I look at my son I could never tell my son to go kill somebody but we were so you know it's just the mentality you know the first time it happened it was fine you know it didn't even phase me well knowing somebody was going to die didn't even phase me before that you know I was supposed to set up this guy Frankie gishe it wasn't even it wasn't even an issue like they told me listen you're going to meet this kid in front of the DI Linda with Diana you're going to bring him around back and jeie Gotti and Johnny kig we're going to shoot the kid in the head and I said all right fine and I'm there I am I'm standing in front of the Lindon with DIN and waiting for this kid to show up and he didn't come you know his uncle came oh yeah he was the guy uh with the Sham with the Shamrock murders the Shamrock B murders with Bobby glasses he was the guy that instigated the whole thing which was a horrible thing they killed 200 people for no reason right P Gotti's daughter was in there so Frankie GES was with us so now he they call me over and my father goes Frankie GES got to go all right you know so I was doing business with him so they figured I was he would come and meet me so I had to meet him in front of the Linda with din we sent word through his mother and what happened was I'm standing there and I'm waiting to bring this kid behind the diner so he could get whacked I mean that's and not even phasing me and uh he don't show up his uncle shows up and I get in the uncle's car and the first words out of the uncle's mouth is what do you think I'm going to let you kill my nephew and I go what are you kidding me he's my friend I going to kill nobody I just my money you know we part is there's 10,000 floating around he goes I'll tell your father I'll send you the money and don't worry about my nephew I'll take care of him and that was it I got out of the car and I went and they came out from behind the diner and that and we and we left right now there a there's a famous scene in the movie Goodfellas we talk about where Ray Leota is walking into the bar and the camera starts to pan to different people at the barn I'm just going to read yeah read what uh it says was there uh he's calling out the guys that B There Was Jimmy Tommy and me and then there was Anthony stabil Frankie Carbone and then there was Mo Black's brother fat Andy and when the camera pans in on fat Andy you were with your friends weren't you in the movies so explain that one so we knew them all intimately you know I went out with Jimmy Brook's daughter Kathy I mean we all grew up I knew Tommy D Simone the part that Joe pesky played I used to go out drinking with him um so we're in the the All My Friends when the first week it came out we were in the movie theater and I have no clue that they're mentioning that scenes in it you know I don't know what the movie is about I didn't see the movie I didn't read the book and we sitting in the movie theater and and the movie starts and that scene comes on in the bamboo loue and soon as they say my father's name all my friends like a chorus that's your father they all screamed and you know in it was it was just it was crazy but that movie was that movie really hit home with me yeah yeah but you also had to have some there was some pride to that too like you know your friends like it yeah yeah yeah of course I felt like a you know I felt like a giant yeah and it goes on afterwards to say to uh fat and his guys Frankie the [ __ ] Freddy no no Pete the killer Sally balls Pete Pete the killer who was Sally Ball's brother and then uh Nikki eyes and Mike Fran uh are all those real guys I know Mike Fran I knew Pete the killer I knew I used to go to well my father was in Springfield Missouri in pris prison with paully vario in the hospital out there actually where John Gotti died I used to fly out there with Pete te killer Danny cateo Tony Lee Frank the WAP is a real guy uh Mike Frances is a real guy yeah uh my father had no brother named Mo black that's all [ __ ] I don't know see and it's funny because my father never liked Henry Hill right so I'm even surprised he even mentioned my father but he had to because my father was so entwined with all of them espe Lanza my father actually fenced the lutza jewelry for Jimmy Burke was that at that Tony Lee's jewelry store right right and actually after they robbed Lanza they actually went and met my father at Cafe Liberty and celebrated the robbery in my father's Cafe so he was intimate with with all of them so Henry had to mention him but I think he put the guy in there with a mustache and made that remark just to like Zing my father cuz he knew my father didn't like him right and then the other twist to that I guess would be that the the actor who portrayed your father was uh louo who was a retired at the time a retired NYPD detective who was doing hits for the mob exactly and uh I you know God knows how he made his way into the film but uh he put some work in that you knew about right there wasn't I know there was the one the incident on the Bell Parkway uh right yeah so when Gest pipe when Castle cooperated he gave up actually the two the mob cops in and it came came out that they actually were the ones that murdered my friend Eddie loo on the Bell Parkway and I liked Eddie Leno he was a good guy we used to go to Yankee game he was a captain in the Gambino family he was a big heroin dealer but you know he was a nice guy he was good nice with me we we used to go to Yankee games together and uh they pulled him over at you know a [ __ ] traffic stop and they shot him in the head U he was very close with John guardi yeah and what was that over do you know well that was retaliation for Paul cast that was all retaliation when they blew Frankie diico up and then they killed Bobby burello in his Alleyway in front yeah and and and and and and and over it was over them shoot they actually Shot Gas Pipe with hell that was he gave up Eddie loo was in on that so it was all a combination of things did anyone else know that those about those two cops so that was secet not up until gas pipe gave them up nobody knew nobody knew nobody knew that it was cops they figured it was Wise Guys but he gave up the the two cops so there came a point in time where you know you're a big party here yes uh you make your way out to Puerto Rico to go hang out with the band Jay and the Americans uh who had a couple of big hits back in the 70s Right This Magic Moment yeah yeah Kia let's locked the door a little bit closer yeah in a little cafe only in America that they they were doing well theyed the voice he had a great voice what was the hookup to to hey go hang out with Jay and the Americans okay so so Jay was a big Gambler so it's a funny story how we got hooked up how my father got hooked up with him so I knew who he was because I used to see him on all the the rock the shows Klay Cole and you know back in the 60s and by his records so he was a big Gambler his wife at the time Kathy was cousins my cousin VI's husband John was Jay's wife's cousin okay okay so she and she used to tell Jay my uncle my uncle and he used to blow her off he thought she didn't know what she was talking about now Jay gets jammed up with bookmakers with Wise Guys they want to hurt him guy was betting 20,000 on a college game in the 60s guy was a bad Gambler so finally he investigates and he finds out who fat Andy is and he tells my cousin Vera introduce me to your uncle so I remember the day he came by my house do we thought Elvis was coming cuz we me and my so we waited upstairs and my father was downstairs with him talking and my father fell in love with him it was an instant love affair you know uh and I came down and he was sitting there with an ascot on he looked like his hair like a movie star you know and and and I was a kid I was only maybe 14 15 and I started going to his shows and everything so now I'm 19 and uh my father's he's my father he's on record my father strained out all his problems and uh and uh he takes me to Puerto Rico as his equipment manager so I get comped but I wasn't and we go there and he had a big suite and now I'm 198 know I'm smoking weed I'm drinking you know and and I and he had a big suite and I walk up in his suite and he used used to sing opera to warm up his voice and there was groupies up there cuz he still had a hit chart and he had his last hit his last chart was This Magic Moment it was on the chart so he was still pretty popular and I walk in and there was around the table and I walk up to the table and there's white powder on the table it's 1972 And I go what's that and they said it's cocaine you want some and I have heard of it you know it was so and I said yeah and they handed me a straw and I did a few lines and you know you know the story was after that it was off to I used it from that day until I was from from 19 to 35 you know a couple of the guys from Steely Dan actually used to play with them as a tra when they were a traveling band Becker and Donald F two partners I know them good were they were they there at that time yeah listen to fast forward to 1979 I'm in arter kill prison on Staten Island right it's Italian American Festival right so the warden calls us in cuz we were on the Italian American Committee and he calls a sin and he goes listen the the festival you know plan the festival so I say could I have professional entertainments so he thought I was breaking balls he goes yeah sure so I get my father and Jay comes to visit me and I Jay says of course I'll come and put on the show they were his backup they were actually in they were they were in his they were his band stand they were his band and they came to they came and now the warden now once I set this up now the guy gets a resentment right no really he got a resentment and he he didn't come to he he goes to every Festival he didn't come to the festival so Jay comes he puts on the show it's in the newspaper the stting island that Jay Black he does a whole show with them guys in the show who later become there in the Rock Hall of Fame who knew so now we go to to the warden warden's office to get the certificate and I'm sitting there and I know now the guy's annoyed because it was a big everybody now now we're like celebrities in the prison and he's the you know so I tell him I go thanks for the certificate I go listen what I go I just want to let you know next year if I'm if I don't make Po cuz I was going to the proo I said if I don't make parole and we do this again next year I think Sinatra might come and put on the show I told him and I'm just kidding the guy and he looked he go sonra I go yeah you know we're going to reach out to him and try to book a date so if you could give us the date for next year and we're like me and my [ __ ] you yeah but they were in Jay's group see if yeah if you came uh if it came a week earlier they just opened for the Eagles did they yeah oh he would definitely remember me cuz they would loved my father they used to go out drinking with him they loved my father and then I we met Frankie Valley then JB Frankie Valley around and my father got very friendly with Frankie Valley matter of fact my father actually a week before my father died in 1999 Frankie was at Westbury and uh he they went out for dinner the three of them my father Frankie Valley and Jay and there was I have a picture of the three of them together that was and then a week later my father pissed away oh wow yeah now a lot of these guys also I'm sure had problems with some way shape or form that they were attached to to members of organized crime too right you hear about these guys who get really bad recording contracts you know yeah you know back then you got to remember all the clubs were owned by mob guys you know what I mean so they really you know was the industry hooked up with the mob of course it was because they really had no choice that where were they going to work right all the night you know it wasn't like today there wasn't Arena know they were doing nightclubs and discos and the record companies were all mobbed up so really they had no choice to they had to shake hands with them I mean um and you know and then they did and and but you know it worked out for both of them I mean really I mean they were all mobbed up back then we we were talking earlier too about we both used to go to the same Club The Ritz yes on what the Ritz 12th Street I guess third to 4th Avenue Great Club uh we both saw the the first performance of YouTu um and I think I said that yeah uh the next day was Ziggy pop and then the next day was Prince and I remember it was like December I think or November yeah who tell me the back so you you just walked through the dev velvet ropes ahead of everybody right had so when I it opened up actually when I was in prison so I I got out of prison at the end of 80 and it had just opened I believe right before that so at the Grand Opening Jay Black from J Americans was good friends with Stanley London he was one of the owners him and this guy Jerry brener so my father and my brother were actually at the grand opening of The Ritz so when I got out of the prison my brother was hanging out there so he took me he went I went and I met Jerry and I met Stanley and we were hanging we started hanging out there my brother and I and our crew and and uh and a lot of celebrities were coming in there it was it was a great club and uh you know I met a lot of people in there I met a lot of celebrities in there and for some reason celebrities just want to hang out with mob guys I mean it was like like we they they actually used to seek us out right like we didn't seek them out and I think they've trusted us and like Stanley would come over to my table and say you got a package and so I wasn't we didn't deal below but we always had a coke dealer with us like cuz St they wanted to hang out with us so and I would say yeah and I would go in the back and who you know Keith Richards would be sitting there or Andy warh would be sitting there and you know we'd all be snorting coke and drinking but it was still all fun in games then you know then it wasn't you know you know how that go then one day I woke up and then it was all about the one but you know that's how I got caught up in all that and uh mty the horse ionello had a um a piece of the club was Stanley London was mat so Stanley London was a big vendor in Manhattan and really at back then MD the horse had Manhattan locked up he had all the gay clubs you couldn't open up a gay club without his okay he had all the peep shows on 42nd Street where you worked he had all the peep shows he was huge in that industry and Stanley was a and so Stanley was with Maddie but Maddie never really came there and uh and we we were there more than my crew was there more than anybody I mean course you know it was a rock Club Wise Guys aren't going to hang out in rock clubs my father used to come my father one night we're in there this is a funny real so we're in there and we're at a table like this and it's my brother Andy Warhol and Billy Idol and me remember Billy ID and we're sitting there we're drinking and we got some blow on the table and we're doing lines and the steps are up to the balcony and I and I look and I go [ __ ] Albert daddy's coming up the steps so my father comes up the steps and he's lit up he's got his tie whenever his tie was open and crushed you know something and he says to me do you know how I had to get in here I had to tell them I was your father he goes why if I wasn't your father they weren't going to let me in where's Stanley so I it was he was like the only wise guy that ever walked into joint my father right right but they were with MD the horse yeah who was Maddie with was he he was he was with the geneves family right I think I think we were talking about I think he owned dberto and some other stuff very wealthy very very wealthy and there was a time by luck you you ran into Neil delro and he had tickets two extra tickets oh yeah so I was in the ravenite one day right when when Ali was fight with the first Ali Frasier fight so Sona was actually the photographer at that fight in manun and he was doing this tour called the main event tour and I'm in the ravenite and this guy Greg the Palmer who was friend with Sinatra but I didn't know at the time comes in the ravenite and they're talking in the back and I'm in the front so Neil's walking out of the Raven night and he sees me he goes hey he goes you got a girlfriend I go yeah I'm going out with Alice mayone happy mayon's niece happy mayone was a murder Incorporated that was my wife's uncle got the electric chair I go yeah I'm going out with Alice mayone the Duke's granddaughter he goes yeah he goes you want to go see Sinatra tonight I go yeah and he get he goes in his pocket he hands me two tickets in the third row I run out I call up Frank sinach I want home back then we all wore suits and ties and I went to C Sinatra and I was in right there he was right in front of me isn't that great though I mean if you think about amazing history yeah it was a black around stage and nobody was on the stage it was a stage that turned and he came out of the middle of the stat actually with a cigarette and a drink in his hand and and and and a and a little stool like this with a microphone on it is this like The Rat Pack era or a little after and then later on my father actually became friends with him and was used to hang out with him inil Jes yeah my father never wanted to sit with him it was the funnest thing because my he would go to Jiles my father always went to Jil he was good friends with Jil who was Sinatra's main guy and Sinatra would invite my father to Su and sit at his table and my father want to go and I used to tell my father why don't you want to he goes listen he goes he's a bad Drinker he goes and I heard through people that he gets abusive and he abuses Wise Guys and they don't do nothing he goes if he abuses me I'm going to knock him off the [ __ ] chair and then I'm going to have an issue cuz he's Sinatra finally one night he's in Jiles with my mother they all came from the Copa my mother my my cousin Joey's wife and know and he's there and my mother oh come on Sona wants us to sit with him and my father went and sat with him and they they uh they hit it off yeah so good yeah uh let's talk about the movie The French Connection okay uh yeah the movie is based on a major seizure of heroin back in the uh this this the early 70s late 60s early 70s um Sunny grao uh and Eddie Eagan two real real life NYPD detectives are in a unit called SIU and uh they end up I think seizing something like you know 30 $40 million worth of heroin that came overseas through France and a buer or something like that and uh I guess Roy shider played Sunny Gro and Jean Hackman played Eddie Ean pick your feet and pipy that's right that's right if you uh if you've ever uh seen the movie folks you know that it's probably the greatest car scene in the history it underneath the traino yeah um there's a great story about that too where that that was all improvised they had no no uh uh pre uh authorization to do it they just went rogue and did it and some of those scenes where people almost getting hit a real so could have been a big disaster but but it played off um so they took a lot of this evidence and put it into the property clerk at the NPD and there was a couple of incidents that happened and they ended up uh conducting an audit of drugs that were there and making sure everything was accounted for and these two like giant suitcases and like I think it was like a steamer trunk full of heroin they noticed these beetles flying around or in in the in the heroin which turned out to be FL uh and it turned into this major U uh you know investigation and the investigation turned to the SIU unit of the NYPD and their connections to organized crime and uh so uh it it it was interesting that they went through the records and they found out that a detective nunziato was signing in and he signed in and out the drugs and I guess it went out heroin came back uh nun I think was a detective that used to work there at one time and they just used his name and there was no real system of checks and balances back then because the drugs you know weren't you know it was there was it was a problem but it wasn't a problem that affected everybody throughout New York City at the time and so they didn't really care they didn't see the value in it like we do today and uh so it ends up uh missing and it all goes to Vinnie Vinnie Papa Vinnie Papa yeah went to the Mob I think it was C guy like story Joe Beck too Joe Beck got his hands on some of that from what I understand you know who Joe Beck was he was the captain in the geneves family big heroin dealer Joe Beck yeah well and the drugs were orig when they when they found the drugs Buick to ended up in the Bronx with a guy um py fuka yeah and then then to you know so uh yeah so um they did it they used to say that SIU detectives were broke in their 20s rich in their 30s and in jail in the 40s right and um over the years after that they they they swept uh you know they clean the place up and um they ended up convicting a detective um Frank King uh for like tax evasion You couldn't possibly what else are they going to get him for yeah right so they just went through all the detectives they they they looked at oh this guy has six houses and you know course but I mean listen the NYPD back then them guys were tied up with the mob I mean you know the mo and where did the heroin wind up well that's the thing you know uh I mean I I it ended up with Papa's crew I'm assuming and he was all mobbed up right he was all I know he wasn't a m guy right was just a drug dealer drug dealer and and and uh and and um Mark Ryder so so that I was away with a couple of guys that actually moved some of that hwind that's how I know about that's how I got Joe Beck's name so Papa he had a distributed he couldn't and and a lot of them got their hands on it uh Angelo quack's brother Sally quack and the mob that they they were on the down low right and and and it winded up with who with with the with the guys in Harlem I mean that's where where all the heroin was was moving up Home Pleasant Avenue guys right right yeah so the the cops gave it to papa papa and and the mob winded up with it all I was away with a lot of guys that were moving and a lot of guys used to talk about it talk about the The French Connection drugs how it Tri down how they got their hands on it and uh they made a lot of money with it yeah uh you know I heard you speak once before about Spanish Raymond oh my God Spanish Raymond had the numbers locked down for the Pleasant Avenue crew basically and if not the biggest in the city right yes yeah he was huge he was multi-million he was he so we had my father we had a major number of business in Jamaica Queens where your case the Supreme case came out of and actually they we we had a beef hair for beef with them cuz we had number spots and we had and pool holes and they were trying to sell crack out at a number spot we had to put a stop to it we had different bankers at different times and we he actually was banking our we were controllers and he was actually banking our our number business for a while Spanish Raymond Jimmy nap another guy was a big number guy with the genevas he was banking on numbers uh uh Spanish Raymond was banking on numbers uh we had a couple of different Bankers but strish Raymond was huge yeah uh huge for a period of time uh we used to get a table my dad uh guy Edie conin some of my friends we get a table every year at this uh Federal uh state city kind of uh organization in law enforcement that brought all the different agencies together so we used to get our own table and Eddie conin started inviting Sunny grao so Sunny was just a class act one of the best cops uh ever in the history of uh of of law enforcement just a really sharp guy and uh so I knew about the corruption in SIU and stuff and I said you know Sunny how was it back then you know whatever and he he you know he read me right away and he said well he goes I'm going to tell you a story he goes we hit Spanish Raymond yeah and I think they hit him at his house uh he wasn't there and let's say they got something like 100 Grand so they bring it back to the police station they're counting the money and the phone rings and Spanish Raymond's on the phone he says Hey listen you got you know you got my money congratulations but someone stole my wife's wedding ban so uh Sunny told the guy he's like hey you know I'm going to go out to lunch do me your favor whoever took it just put it in my top drawer so he he goes out to lunch he comes back opens the drawer and the ring is there so he calls Eddie Egan and he goes we just hit for 100 grand right and they and they took the guy you know wife's wedding ring goes what piece of [ __ ] would do that he goes shut the [ __ ] up I took it he took it so so I don't you know I don't know if I'll edit that out I know a lot of cops get pissed off when they hear about the corruption but you know what it's history it was history those cops were making and the the system of corruption was already in place the envelope used to go to the captain and you know if people you know had businesses that were under the protection of the mob or something they they turn they to shake my father down and my over me they would bring me home instead of arresting me and and you know my father used to give them money give a tip yeah to you know and they us I used to sit on my stoop and don't move off the St right so we talk we've talked about some funny stories and things that but let's get serious let get serious uh one your your addiction is is a problem yeah it was a problem so so you know like we talked about earlier laughing you know so you know I I I you know I grew up in the 60s you know I you know I started you know smoking weed and all that nonsense um and then when I was 19 I got introduced to cocaine and uh you know wasn't a problem at first you know I was a weekend warrior you know doing it was very expensive first of all when I first started doing cocaine very expensive you know um before crack and all that and then um it was it wasn't an issue um I went away in 78 I did my first bid in 78 I got out in 80 and um I got introduced to Free Base Cocaine um and I started free basing cocaine that's when it became an issue so uh and then I was going back and forth to Florida my father had gotten arrested in Florida he wind up getting 40 years and uh I crossed over that imaginary line from recreational use into addiction and uh and it it got crazy it got very it got crazy um I would say from 83 to from 83 to 88 it was probably the worst years of of my addiction you know I was free basing cocaine I was committing a lot of crazy crimes to get money um my father was in prison um I'm lucky I was fat Andy son which I probably would have got killed honestly cuz I was taking money off everybody um but you know through it all John Gotti still liked me thank God he still helped me even though I was banged up he still helped me um and you know and then um you know my father was upset with me um when I used to go visit him I looked terrible and then I don't know you know um I just woke up one day you know I was 35 years old and I woke up one day and I remember you know I I just looked in the mirror and I was Skin and Bones and I and I knew at that point bill I knew at that point that it was either stop or die right you know that's where it was at it was either stop what I was doing or I was going to die cuz I knew I was killing myself and um there was no internet I didn't know nothing about recovery 12 steps I knew nothing about that but there was this commercial on TV you know how the TV used to go off at 5: in the morning you know and the the flag would come on and the snow then so there was this commercial with a girl's nose and the house would go up on nose and the car would go up on nose and it say if you have a cocaine problem call 1800 cocaine so I remember I came out of the bedro and I was sitting on my bed and I'm and I'm rocking I'm going oh God how did this happen to me and my wife walked in and says what's a matter and I said I'm dying I don't know what to do she goes well what do you want me to do and I told her call 1800 cocaine I don't know and she called and this woman Joan devano I'm still in touch with answers the phone she was in recovery and we talk and she goes listen you need to go to treatment but I had no money I had no insurance back then so I called up my father's partner Tony Lee he came to my house and I told him listen I got to go into treatment and he goes yeah he goes you got better do something otherwise because you know you're going to want end up either dying or getting shot in the head which it's got to stop so I says well I have no money I he goes he goes you want to go I go yeah he goes all right he goes I'm going to pay for this but he got it he used to call me sunny he goes but as far as I'm concerned you're probably too far gone but he paid I went to this treatment center in Vermont um called Founders Hall and uh and um I got clean I came out I did pick up three times my first year I was clean for 6 months I picked up for one night I was clean three months I pay but I'm making meetings I I had a sponsor you know I'm in a 12ep program but I'm still in the street I'm not you know I'm not doing no fourth step I'm not you know you know what I mean like my father's telling me you don't be telling them anything about us at those meetings now he knows I'm going to meetings so like you know but had one foot but but I I don't want to use and then finally in ' 89 I put it down and I haven't I've been clean 35 years and you know but the process of recovery for me in spite of myself I started getting un comfortable in my own skin again clean cuz now I'm living this lifestyle I'm still in the street you know now my goal is to get made John Gotti's the boss I'm making a lot of money I'm driving Tony Lee around you know I'm uh all the respect I got back I'm looking good you know uh but um but I started feeling uncomfortably and then I got arrested again in 91 now I'm clean I'm in jail my son's 8 years old I started a meeting in jail and I'm going what you know what's going on but I still didn't know what to do I still was insecure I had no skill I had no education I didn't know how to fix anything build anything and um I got out in '92 right back to the street I went I was making big money I took over a vending company I was making crazy big money but I was miserable and I and I you know and then I got arrested again in '95 for bookmaking it's funny everything I got arrested for is legal now I get arrested on this big bookmaking case with queens and Brooklyn Joint Task Force I get arrested again I and my friend comes home at my house and he says to me you think it's time you moved on to step too I said yeah I think so so uh and I get arrested I took a plea 2 to four and I I turned myself in and so I tell my Bo just keep me out till after the 96 World Series I want to take my son to the World Series game and they did it I turned myself in the day after the World Series ended in '96 I want to ask you a story there was um didn't you tell didn't you tell guys tell your kids that your father was like a a general or something like that so my father so my father was in Richmond Virginia in in Petersburg Virginia the federal prison was actually on an army base so I used to take my son and tell my son Grandpa's in the Army and he used to see the tanks and everything and my father used to tell him he was a general so my son used to go and say my grandfather's a general in the Army but when I went away in ' 91 now my son's 8 years old so I told my son I was going to prison so he it's funny so he my friends bring him up to visit me and he's comes and he and he walks something he's 8 years old and he says to me well I guess Grandpa's really not in the Army is he cuz it was the same kind of setup you know and I go your grandpa's not in the army goes so he's not a general right I go no he's not a general yeah but uh yeah you know and and some of some of the down moments too if you look back I know there was a time where the the cops come to your house you're handcuffed you're on the couch oh yeah that was yeah and you were you happened with your daughter that was in '95 so in '95 was December of '95 I got indicted on a big bookmaking case with the Queen's organized crime task force and Brooklyn The Joint Task Force so they 5: in the morning my bell rings you know you guys come 5:00 in the morning to arrest people and the bell rings and my wife looks out the window she's screaming the streets all lit up like they were coming to get Al Capone I let them in there was about 10 I don't know so how many they came in and they cuffed me and they put me on my couch and they had a search for so they start searching out and my daughter is 2 years old she's in diapers and she don't know what's going on and she's looking around at all these guys and she's going Daddy are these your friends Daddy are these your friends and you know it just was hard you know I'm sitting there handcuffed on the couch my daughter's in a diaper my wife's crying in the other room it was just uh you know and I'm sitting there handcuffed and she thinks they she don't know what to think she thinks they're my friends she didn't know what to do right and that's the things that you know really stick out at people never think you know they only think about the glamour of Life they never think about you know going to jail watching your family suffer those are the things they don't put in the movies right those are the things they leave out of The Sopranos and all these movies they make that glamorize that life you know and it's funny because everywhere I go when I was in the witness protection program I was in Idaho and I was in Wasington and the first words out of anybody's mouth was oh you sound just like The Sopranos oh you sound just even I went to a I went to an Italian Supermarket one day right and I'm in this Italian supermarket in Point Pleasant New Jersey and I look behind the counter and there's all pctures on the wall Al Capone John Gotti lucky luchano and all and the own is there so now I'm looking I tell so that the guy know must guy must thought I was I look at the guy and I go are you the owner he goes yeah I'm the owner I go why you got all those pictures up there on why don't you have like uh America Vespucci or you know the guy the Supreme Court you know why don't why don't you have like them Italians up there why do I said you know anything about them guys he goes no I go you know they were all murdering drug dealers Psychopathic murderers you know that he's just the guy must have done I was crazy the guy's just staring at me just trying to sell food man yeah yeah yeah yeah because I mean but that's that's what it's you know that that's the reality that they don't really know like you know they it's all glamorizing it should be pictures from Italy from yeah you know we shouldn't idolize these people even my own father he was a murderer he murdered people I mean it was no joke I mean you know it's a sickness you you go out and you kill somebody and you come home and you go to your son's little Le game like that's it's all part of your job right and that's what happened with my daughter you know she just was so confused she didn't know if they were my friends or not yeah when you hit that first night in prison not when you get to like where you're going to be let's just say and the lights are out whatever the like what kind of like that first night it's got to feel like like yeah you know when I first went to jail in 78 so that my father had a going away party for me at the Raven night it was like I was going off to Harvard put suits and ties on went they had a buffet that all in all hey K don't worry about nothing hugging me kissing me telling me what to do in jail you know and the next morning my father had to take me to surrender it was just him and I in the car and we're driving out to uh Huntington to um Mass it was in Long Island Nassau County with mass what's whereever that the courthouse is there naso County jail oh no Nas County jail so uh we're in the car and he goes okay listen he goes there's only two things you could do I said what's that he said either you could be stressed out and drive yourself crazy or you could go in there get comfortable read a book he said because they could there one thing they can't do they can't stop the clock right he told me that's what he told me of course I didn't like being in there so that's what I did I went in there and I got a book you know that was my lesson you know but yeah no it's stressful you know when it's really bad it's really bad you know not to make light of it around the holidays it sucks being I would imagine it sucks being in there but you the first night is scary especially when you first go in you don't know what's going on the noise the the noise it's it's you know there's no privacy it's scary um if anybody says they're not scared they're full of [ __ ] you know it's a you know until you feel your way around but you know for for for for Mob guys it's a little easier cuz no matter where we go there's guys in there and they're already waiting for us it's not I'm I'm not going in a jail and I don't know anybody which would be really not good every jail I went to I knew somebody or someone knew me and they were waiting for me right so it made it a lot easier but yeah but it's you know a lot of violence you you seeing people getting cut and stabbed it's it's scary yeah yeah and uh as far as in jail getting drugs and things like that oh it's it's easy see if you have the money it's easy my first bid I I I Got High I mean but I had my own [ __ ] weed the COS were bringing us weed my brother used to meet a CO in so in art to kill which is in St Tommy bot the guy that got killed with Paul castalano he owned a bar restaurant right up the road from Artic Hill and all the cos's Hun out and he had them all I we had they used to come to my room and I used to give them money because I was getting money in the prison they used to line up and I used to pay them the cosos they would bring me Chinese food it was crazy weed I used to get weed by the pound I my brother used to meet this guy in Brooklyn give him $300 for his pocket and a pound of weed and he worked in the state shop so the state shop is where you go get your clothes your boots and everything he would put me on a call out to come to the state shop I would go to the state shop with an old pair of boots and I would give him the old pair of boots and he would give me a a shoe box with the pound of weed I used to put it under my arm and walk through the whole prison with the with the with the boot box underneath Maya and then we had the Co in the maintenance shop so they had washing machines and dryers and he gave us the screwdriver and we would open up the top of the dryer and hide the weed in there and then screw it back so when they shook down the units they never found it so you know that was the second and third bit I didn't get High um well let's talk about the probably the the the well let's talk about the crime uh you come out of jail you find out that your brother-in-law no I came out of treatment oh you came out of treatment okay okay yeah I came out of treatment and my brother-in-law was that's Frank baa was yeah my brother-in-law there was an incident with my mother and uh Tony Lee I went to Tony Lee and uh they said they were going to clip him and I went to my father and my father okay it and uh he basically was abusing your mom yeah yeah and uh you know it was a terrible thing and uh I'm sorry that it happened and you know and uh we murdered him you know we uh I brought him to the cafe and he was shot in the cafe by Skinny D and uh you know I still you know it's terrible I mean I I Ru my sister's life you know but back then I was in a different frame of mind you know what I mean like it didn't phase me um it was just and you know that's another thing my father okay you know I go see my father he okays us to kill his sisters his daughter's husband like it was nothing what is he he was a dangerous guy too very dangerous and we didn't know that at the time until his partner Peter Sakara cooperated and then we found out about the murders and the robberies he was involved in there he was a tough kid he was dangerous but uh you know we could have went about it a different way but you know unfortunately we didn't and uh you know and I paid the price for it yeah and uh yeah that was you had you had to bring him to one of the cafes to Cafe Liberty I picked them up and I brought him to Cafe Liberty and I walked him in and Dominic shot him but um yeah you know and I they they disposed the body in the ocean to oan my friend had a this guy Tommy had a boat and they took him out on the boat and they and they disposed of his body and uh and when and your sister was calling you like hey can you help me find I went and help you know helped them look for it was I drove around with the kids's father looking for him knowing but that we murdered him but that was the mob you know that's what you did that was part of the job unfortunately you know um when I decided to cooperate and you were sober then yeah I was Co yeah I just newly sober I guess yeah brand new a couple of months under my belt you know that'll put a yeah yeah yeah here I am you know just got out of re planning the murder with you know John Gotti and everybody uh you can't call sponsor and say hey I just took part in the murder and I I could discuss that with my sponsor no not at all but he he had a pretty good idea what happened um but then later on and you know later on when I when I when I decided to cooperate you know I went and I told my sister you know what happened um I try to say how you how do you say you're sorry for something like that and uh you know she flipped out but my mother I told my mother and you know my mother it's funny because I told my mother in her kitchen and she was just looking at me and she just looked at me and she's told me I can't believe that he made you do things like that I said yeah well he did well um Irish Danny Irish Danny that was so what was what you heard he was going to get Clips so Irish Danny was a guy that was with my father he was he was a thief he was a hijacker with this guy Danny the Hat this guy Johnny Chanty they were they they were hijackers strictly Stone Cold hijackers and they were around my father my father put got them put them on record with them um and the word came down that Danny was cooperating so he had to go you know and uh and this so they were all from Long Island there were these guys from Long Island with this guy Johnny boy who now is actually a wise made guy Johnny Boy the Ambrosio so that was their crew they were hijackers bookmakers and all that kind of stuff and we got worried that my father got worried that Danny was was cooperating and um I knew he was going to go I knew and you know and here now here he is he's allegedly our friend and we're out drinking with him and we're out laughing with him and knowing at the end of the week this guy's going and and uh yeah and um they killed him behind the Skyway Lounge it was a place on I don't know if you remember it it's a hotel called the Skyway it's on um conduit back then they had a nightclub in there yeah now it's like a welfare hotel but back then it was like a highend hotel with a with um with a lounging and Danny the Hat because they brought him around so now that it was their responsive my father made them responsible for him and they they killed him behind the Skyway in a van yeah yeah but you know we knew he was going and here we are we're drinking with him Orting with him he was even in my I half hour Club um on on Liberty Avenue a couple of days before the murder he was in my club after hour was hanging out with us laughing and drinking meanwhile we all knew it was going to happen What were what were like the worst crimes you think committed not not so much specific incidents but the worst types of crimes the worst type of crimes I committed especially when I guess you were in your addiction were you doing robberies yeah I was doing robberies I mean I was doing robbing drug dealers I I think I committed worst crimes clean and sober and then when I was high uh um like I ex I extorted a um a a vending company off a married couple um you know I just chased them you know uh um which wasn't really nice to do I had to plead guilty to that I committed a murder which was terrible um when I would my addiction yeah you know like I would go I would go to the like I would buy I had a Coke dealing friend in in Howard Beach and I would go to his house and and he would um there would be people in there buying drugs and they had nice jewelry on them I would wait outside we'd Robb them um I robbed this coke dealer in his house with his mother in the bed I tied him up in his living room you know crazy [ __ ] you know crazy insane [ __ ] going in abandoned buildings to buy drugs at 3: in the morning in East New York on picking a you you know nuts you know just not thinking don't care but I I think I did worse crimes clean I did more time clean than when I used I got arrested more clean and sober than when I I used cuz when I got clean I was in I you know when I was using I was committing spontaneous crimes just to get money to go use right and I was working in the number office for my father so I was getting a pay and the pay was going to my wife so I was just doing crazy stupid ship but when I got clean and I got back into that mob John that mob mentality and I started making big money you know I had chop shops now I'm I'm chopping cars I got a stolen car ring I got a credit card fraud ring you know one I'm committing nine crimes a day right you know what I mean like my every if my eyes are open I'm committing a crime right you know and you know and uh so I think I did more damage clean than when I was using Uh Kevin Kelly Kevin Kelly buddy you were bunes for a while right yeah what can you tell us about Kevin Kelly so he's got he's sort of a a Westy Legend him and Kenny Shannon Shan so you know a great guy I love him to death you know um so you know I knew who I knew of him I never met him I knew of the westers of course because they were with the gambinos you know with Paul castalano Tony Lee was actually on a case you know with the my father's partner Tony Lee was on Jo John Gotti's C- defendant on the case with the with the c the president they shot him in the ass that was John gave the contract to the Westies so I always knew ke of Kevin and of the Westies but I never really met any of them or hung out with any of them so now I roll into school kill federal prison and Kevin Kelly's there and he you know we hit it off right away we hit it off friends cuz you know we have mutual friends Danny Marino who was a captain and that's who they were would and Roy Deo and who was a crazy satic murderer um so you know we had things in common and he knew I was fat Andy son so we hit it off and I wind up moving into his cell with him because in the feds there's two men in the cell and we lived together for a couple of years and he was a cleaning F he'll laugh if he ever hears this he was a cleaning fanatic right like arel was spotless and I used to like stand out my locker and I would making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and I and I knew he was like watching me I didn't drop any relax I'm not dropping any on the floor he'd be staring at me but a great guy tough little guy dangerous D that whole crew you know they were dangerous but we had you know um yeah I lived in them I was his cellmate for over three years yeah I uh I went to St Ang boys high school in Manhattan and uh you know it was my first year into school I came in in junior year and it was these Irish kids this blains I didn't know anything about the Irish mob at the time and you know we all used to go to uh hockey games every like 10 20 guys from the school we'd meet at hockey gam sneak in the back door um and uh then I found out that year before their father was murdered in front of their apartment building in uh Jimmy killed them that's how they took over the gang yeah but Kevin was a good guy uh tough guy um great athlete champion best handball player in the whole prison no great handball player and the cosos and the people that work there would bring him you know the book Featherstone wrote a book to Westies and he in it and they would bring him and make him sign autographs in the book yeah it was TJ English he's actually going to be out here on March 9th to talk about uh it's actually there's a big Irish Celebration out here so he's coming out to he going to talk about the West going I guess you know what we'll take we take the good with the bed yeah of course yeah listen every nationality has good and bad right you know it is uh yeah I mean uh you know to know that we had a a crew of guys out there that were competitive with you I guess it's but that you know he he you know I when I was you know living with Kevin you know I learned things like that I didn't know like I knew like when he when Jimmy made the deal with Paul castalano how they didn't really like it cuz they don't like Italians I mean let's be you know they they they didn't like Italians and vice versa you know but uh they didn't like the idea that Jimmy made a deal with with Paul castalano they went along with it but they weren't happy um you know they really uh they would they would kill anybody they didn't kill wise guy no wise guy they they didn't really give a [ __ ] you know what I mean but they they had the west side of Manhattan locked down I mean you couldn't do nothing in that neighborhood they had everything the docks the play they had it all yeah involved in the stage hands Union everything everything everything everything I want to ask you about um 911 there was a comment made you you guys were sitting around there was a comment made by by a prisoner about cops dying and yeah so what happened was we're in the yard that morning we're in the yard and we're walking a matter of fact I'm walk I'm with Kevin Kelly and we walk in the yard him and I walk in the yard and there's this guy in front of us named Mike gin he was a French Canadian drug dealer uh a Hell's Angel guy from Montreal right and he's walking he turns goes hey a plane just crashed into the World Trade Center so Kevin goes that must be one of them tourist planes and then all of a sudden another guy says oh man another plane crashed into the World Trade Center all of a sudden you hear the yard is closed the yard is closed the yard's closed so we all go down by the gate and the co tells us we're under attack the World Trade Center and this guy Willie is with us he was a bookmaker from Jersey he standing next to me goes oh man my son works there his son actually got killed wow in in the world trade his son was there that day and he goes oh man oh my God my son works there but we still don't know really what's going on so now we go in and now it's on the TVs and we're looking the smokes coming out of the buildings they haven't collapsed yet right the warden comes around anybody lives in New York will give you phone calls they scooping up all the Muslims and all the terrorists the Dem they scooping them right up off the compound like grabbing them dragging them out the guy was there um one of the Muslim the terrorist that with the blind she the guy that rented the van he was there they took him right out a couple of domestic terrorist guys white guys they took them out whatever whoever was mared whatever terrorist they took them right off the compound and now the the buildings come down now we're devastated I'm devastated I used to take my kids in that building that's where I grew up New York that's my city I I'm I'm [ __ ] up so now I was standing under the TV and I'm with a bunch of Wise Guys and you know all the knock you know mob guys and was standing in front of the TV that's another thing when I started getting like with this life and we're watching the TV and they're putting up figures now and it comes across 240 something police officers missing right and I'm standing in this guy next to me this guy from Jersey this wi guy from New Jersey a more cops should have ran into that [ __ ] building and I it just I was so disgusted bill I looked at I go is there something wrong with you I used to go in there with my kids these guys are running in there to help people more of them should but that's the M mentality and you know what hurt me the most as much as I love my father I knew he would have felt the same way cuz they hate they hated law enforcement they hated the government and they hated cops and they hated just they hated it because why so because we can't pillage and plunder they you know that's why we hate them you know and that's another sobering moment where you do a little self analysis and say like you know I'm with guys who think like this yeah that's what I said to myself I said my am I him you know to this day it still annoys the [ __ ] out of me that he's you know like I couldn't like it made me feel disgusted like disgusted about myself that I'm like that I could be you know that I I was somewhat like this guy like and maybe you know I I maybe at another time and place I would have thought the same thing you know but uh but uh I was upset and I felt and it really really really bothered me when he like I really wanted to punch him in his [ __ ] face like I was just disgusting you know

Channel: The Proffer

Views: 19,710

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Id: yRp4h9o688U

Length: 73min 57sec (4437 seconds)

Published: Tue Apr 02 2024