1993 SPECIAL REPORT: FULL SAMMY "THE RAT" GRAVANO TESTIMONY TO U.S. SENATE

with the chairman okay okay if you if you would remain standing please our first witness is Salvador Gravano mr. Gravano is currently in federal custody and cooperating with the government while awaiting sentencing mr. Gravano has testified as a government witness in several major trials and will be testifying in additional upcoming cases given the sensitive nature of mr. gravanos position as a cooperating witness we have agreed to limit his testimony to matters relating to professional boxing we appreciate the cooperation of all subcommittee members in abiding by this understanding we swear in all the witnesses before this subcommittee so if you'll hold up your right hand I'll give you the oath you swear the testimony you give before this subcommittee will be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth so help you God thank you you could be seated Logano you have an attorney with you today mr. chairman my name is John Gleeson I'm an Assistant United States attorney in Brooklyn New York a chief of the organized crime section and I'm supervising the Criminal Investigations in which mr. Gravano is participating I've worked with the staff of the subcommittee in facilitating his appearance here today we're pleased represented by counsel obviously that's not me right thank you we appreciate your cooperation senator Roth Gravano would you please proceed with your testimony good afternoon mr. chairman members of the shuttle and talked directly into it you get it right in front of you and maybe tilt it up a little bit where you can speak into it take your time and just talk right into the mic okay thank you very much how's that good afternoon mr. chairman and members of the subcommittee my name is Salvatore Gravano early in my life I was given the nickname Sammy the bull I have been in jail since December of 1990 when I was arrested with John Gotti I was his underboss and second of command of the Gambino family I have been involved with organized crime since 1968 when I became associated with a guy named shorty Sparrow of the Colombo family I committed many types of crimes when I was with shorty including my first murder in 1972 I was officially released from the Colombo family to the Gambino family I became a made member of the Gambino family in 1976 at that time Paul Castellano was the boss of the Gambino family in December of 1995 John Gotti I along with some others murdered Paul Castellano we took over the family John Gotti became the boss a couple of weeks later I became a captain in 1987 I became acting wounds Lea of our family I later became the official guns Lea in January of 1990 I accepted the position of official on the boss which I held until I began to cooperate with the government in 1991 I decided to cooperate before we meaning me John Gotti and our acting loosely at Frank LoCascio went to trial I testified in that trial and some others I'll be testifying at more trials in the near future as part of my deal with the government I pleaded guilty to a charge that has a 20-year maximum sentence rather than the life sentence that I was facing if convicted at trial as part of my cooperation I told the government about my life of crimes including the fact that I participated in 19 murders as a member of our families administration I helped John Gotti run the family my primary responsibility was controlling the construction industry in New York I did this by working with union officials and companies that were owned or controlled by our family and by dealing with other families who also control certain and companies I have been asked to testify here today about the mobs involvement and professional boxing I don't know much about what other families have been doing in boxing but I do know about our family the Gambino family has basically gotten out of boxing some time around or before 1960 we were involved in other things that made more money but I have always had an interest in boxing I boxed the law when I was in the Army and I picked it up again a few years before I was arrested I would go to Gleason's Gym in Brooklyn every week and work out sometimes I would go a few rounds with other people who trained them I often attended fights in New York and New Jersey including the Mike Tyson Larry Holmes fight 1988 in Atlantic City which I attended with John Gotti I got to know a heavyweight named Reynaldo Snipes and his manager who I knew I sell I try to set up a fight between Snipes and Francisco Damiani who was the undefeated European and WBO heavyweight champ Damiani was with an organized crime family in Italy since our family had close ties with the Italian family I was able to set up a meeting with Danny Annie's people they came to New York and we discussed the possibility of a fight with Snipes at that time Damiani was already scheduled to fight Rey Marcin one of the things I did to try to arrange a Damiani Snipes fight was to reach out to set up a meeting with a guy who was in charge of boxing for Donald Trump I believe his name was Mark Harris Snipes his managers cell and I met with this mark in Atlantic City he told us that a fight between Damiani and Snipes would sell mark thought it would be even bigger if Snipes had a high ranking with one of boxing sanctioning bodies Joe Watts who was an associate now family told me that he had someone in Las Vegas who could help us get a ranking for Snipes Watts arranged the meaning for me where Joey Curtis a boxing referee in Las Vegas Joey Curtis has once visited our club the ravenite social club New York City so I went to Las Vegas with two of my friends and our wives after we had dinner with Curtis I took him aside and after that asked him if he can get Snipes moved up in the rankings Curtis said he could move snipe up Snipes up in the rankings of the World Boxing Council which is based in Mexico Curtis said that this would cost ten thousand but because it was a favor for John Gotti he might be able to get it done for about five thousand my idea all along was to use Damiani Snipes fight as a set up fight to get Damiani a big payday against Mike Tyson my plan was for Snipes to have a high ranking and then make it look good but lose the Damiani I never discussed this with Snipes because Damiani lost to myself which put Danny Ani out of the picture for a major fight I'm sure that we would have had no problem in convincing Snipes to lose another boxer our family has an interest in his buddy McGirt who recently lost his WBC welterweight title his manager is Al Sardo who is a Gambino family associate al Sardo is with Joe Joe carazzo who was a made member of our family I know al surdo is with our family because Joe Joe put it on record with his captain Peter Gotti also a beef came up between our family and the Bufalino family about who McGirt was with Eddie scanned Riya the guns Lea of the Bufalino family complained to John Gotti that the Bufalino 's had a piece of Magary daddy told me to arrange a meeting with scandia and Joe Joe to resolve the beef I actually had several meetings with Joe Joe and scan jury about this Joe Joe said that he had paid see Andrea some money to walk away from regard but now scanner you wanted back in because McGary had done well and was getting bigger purses after hearing both of them I recommended to John Gotti that Joe Joe was right and that McGirt she's staying with Joe Joe and our family any schedule was not satisfied with my decision and kept coming back for more meaning I got tired of meeting with scan jury about this but out of respect for his position and age we had Frank LoCascio who was part of our administration continue to talk to him but our position never changed Sara Dolan McGirt stayed with our family I should point out that the person who was with who was really with us was Al sorrow his relationship with Joe Joe Caruso is how we had a piece of McGurk McGarrett is a fighter and although sorryto brought him by the club wants to introduce him to some people it wouldn't really be fair for me to say that he was an associate of organized crime but Soto was with us and that gave us our interest in McGurk our family was not the only family in boxing although I do not know the details I know several other families are involved in boxing in some way but you should know that our involvement in boxing has changed from the way it used to be a lot of people think that organized crime makes its money by fixing fights and betting on the winner that really doesn't happen anymore the prices have gotten so big it doesn't make sense to fix a fight in order to collect the bet while we because we would consider fixing a fight in order to set up for a big payday fight like I had in mind for Damiani the money is in the purses not in the betting besides boxing is a risky business for bookmakers you couldn't bet big money on a fight even if you wanted to so the interest today is getting a piece of a successful boxer until a boxer reaches a certain level there is not much money to be made because the prices are small but once a box have become successful the family that has him can profit from that success now because of the size of the prices have gotten so big over the past 20 years organized crime is more and more interested in getting back into it at this time I will be happy to answer any questions that might have that you might have about organized crime in boxing Thank You mr. Gravano and I'll ask you just a few questions and then turn to Senator Roth and my colleagues you you stayed here that you quote you couldn't bet big money on a fight even if you to end quote what do you call big money I would imagine from anywhere from 40 50 thousand and up you came you can't place bets any larger than 30 $40,000 on a fight today not what bookmakers in the street know they probably wouldn't take that kind of action and as that changed over the years with could you bet big money in the past and can't now yes years ago - the prices were rather small and they would filter out the betting and they were more likely to get the been in years ago than they are today why is it that bookmakers won't take big bets on fights today do they worry about the fights being fixed what if what are they worried about they worry I would imagine they worrying about fights being one-sided I don't know as far as being fixed but some of the fights the total mismatches and I really wouldn't want to get involved in in the action of it there's no way to establish odds is that right when you got a mismatch well they do but they won't take big money they'll take small money a thousand 2,000 maybe 5,000 maybe even 10,000 if you find a fairly large bookmaking operation but I really don't believe that they would go overboard in that with bets on when did that change what time period and what caused it to change I've always mentioned one sided fights have there not but I would imagine that they walked away when we walked away when organized try and walked away from the boxing industry I believe our betting slowed down I believe the whole thing stopped in that area when did was organized crime walk away from the boxing industry in the time when Rocky Marciano when people like that were involved our people meaning mob people were involved and we had closer ties to boxing and I would imagine there was a lot more betting and a lot more situations making and bookmakers I think became a little more sophisticated there's even some tracks horses horse betting races and some tracks that they would stay away from and they wouldn't take action on there was also some games that they wouldn't take action on but they might take action on if you wanted to call a knockout which round or something like that which would make the bet very very hard and complicated and what what were the benches that was so profitable that that organised crime basically decided to walk away from from boxing after the Marciano era what what what things shifted in organized crime then it was that when organized crime started getting into narcotics Oh what what were the things that was so lucrative that organized crime lost interest in boxing I believe at that time organized crime became more sophisticated we got into unions construction shipping garment garbage and they they became a lot more lucrative than the boxing industry prices were very very small would that have been in the 1950 time for a fifties sixties yes that's why I said in the 60s and before right what when did organized crime get back into boxing well over a period of time recently we've had an interest again talking about my own family going down to Gleason's Gym I met some fighters and try to put something together I had conversation with John Gotti and myself and John had urged me to see if we can reach out and put together some possible gyms or promoters or fights and see if we can get back involved in the boxing industry in that period I found out that we would be able to reach certain people who are rather successful in the boxing industry and I felt that given enough time we would be able to go back into it and what time frame during what time frame was when you had these discussions with John this was a while maybe a year maybe a little bit more before I was arrested and stopped maybe even a little bit before that so it's been in the last five years then yes what kind of payoff did you expect and anticipate from getting back involved you were gonna get certain percentage of the purses is that how you were gonna get paid well there's a lot of different benefits from it we were at one point I myself negotiated to buy Gleason's Gym in Brooklyn because it had a name and a reputation we would probably start off with getting a gym we would have some trainers like an al sir I'll bring McGuirk or other people to train there if the prices became very big and lucrative when you get into the bracket of a half a million and betta we would be able to chew up some of the money within the gym through training expenses not only just the direct kickback but through training expenses by putting people to work at that particular point in his corner for promotional for many many reasons and then we also felt that some of the fighters would have been good aside from just the money when some of our people are in trouble and our trials we will be able to bring some of them down at the trial to lend support to the people who are on trial so that some of the juries would be impressed on people who would air and maybe sway some of the juries there was a lot of different reasons why we thought it would be good contacts connections with Trump Steve Wynn or anybody in that capacity we wouldn't just stop strictly our eyes wouldn't stop strictly at boxing once we got into the circle you wanted to use this for a broader more pervasive influence then well we wouldn't stop strictly at boxing we would put somebody if I was able to start it we would have put probably put a captain in our family in charge of that boxing industry and once we had a four all in it yes we would have branched off in as many areas as we could have understand that both buddy McGirt and Snipes attended parts of John Gotti's trial do you know whether they were asked to do so and if so who who would have asked him well again it would have been in mcgoats case it would have been a little it would have been John Gotti to reach Joe Joe carazzo who would ask al Sardo to bring McGurk down to the trial but it would look good as far as Reynaldo Snipes he was close to me I don't really know who asked him at that particular point thank you very much Thunder all in answer to a question to the Chairman you stated there were certain people in boxing who you thought you could reach and that's one of the reasons you went back into boxing who were those people that you thought you could reach well in some of our conversations when we try to set up the fight with Reynaldo Snipes and Damiani to reach Donald Trump we reach an entertainer his name is Jimmy Roselli Jimmy Roselli has a brother-in-law who's a heavyweight gambler and Gamble's in Atlantic City and we used that resource to get to Donald Trump we know that Lou Duva was close to people in the Genovese family I really don't know if he's with these people but we do know that he has relationships with some of those people and we would be able to reach him Marvin Hagler was very very close with the Petrocelli brothers we believed that one of them might even be a made member of one of the New England families but they were his trainers and we would be able to reach them at one point we reached out for Don King who gave us a message back that he had problems with the government and problems with taxes and he didn't think it was the right time to meet and we reached a Raymond Patriarca from a New England family who would reach a Cleveland family and they had access to Don King seemed like some control over Don King and they would explain to him at the next request to meet him for John Gotti and myself that it would be in his best interest that he would meet with us and we knew that Nicky Scarfo had some interest in some fighters and other families around the country there was a guy named Andrew Russo who was a captain in the Colombo family who has some some sort of tie to a veto and a few mo so knowing this based knowledge we felt that if we went back in some of these places as areas that we could have got into when I met with Joey Curtis in Las Vegas he told me that he knew Steve Wynn personally and asked me if the Renaldo Snipes Damiani fight would come off maybe we could even talk with Steve Wynn so I did realize that we were able to reach different areas in different people now you've used the term with reach made can you explain exactly what you mean by the terms when you say you testify about being with a particular organized crime family what does that mean generally and specifically ask let me ask you that first well when you with an organized crime family or a made member in a family the made member goes to his captain puts you on record that you're with him and our family his benefits whatever connections like I had just mentioned we have he can have if any other family within the country or out of the country for that matter whatever trying move in on him muscle in on him it couldn't happen he was already on record as being with us and he was beyond the our protection our umbrella so to speak but he wouldn't be made no no he a made member is is another stage when a man after a period of years is with somebody and is brought into a meeting and is given the oath and becomes a made member he's a full member in other words he's a blood member a blood member yes and what do you mean by the word reach well reach if we don't know Donald Trump himself we have ways to reach him and it's just it's just a time I'm using I was we would use Jimmy Roselli or Jimmy Rizzoli's brother-in-law or Bobby Sasso who controls 282 Union in New York and Donald Trump obviously does a lot of construction and if Bobby sazon the president of 282 the Teamsters who is what our family would reach Donald Trump and tell them that we were interested in the meeting with him when I say we I don't mean me or or John Gotti I don't know if Trump would meet us but it would open the door for a meeting with Snipes Asst manager or Damiani x' manager or whoever we put in front of this thing to make it look legitimate after a while myself and John Gotti and people like us would probably take a back seat to somebody who's a little bit cleaner now you said you know that McGirt is with the Gambino family because Carozza put it on the record with Peter Gotti what does it mean to put something on record well when the minute when a man is a made member he goes to his captain which is his supervisor right above him he goes to him and he puts it on record with him on what he's doing what business is he has who he has with him this goes on record with his captain his captain will bring it up to the administration so ultimately the boss has a good idea what the family has in many different industries of what contacts who has within the family so that if I wanted to get into boxing or if we wanted to get into boxing we would know immediately that we can call for Pete Gotti to send for Joe Joe we know we would be able to get al cerdo Abunimah go through that Avenue if a different captain let's assume I'm just using this as an example was close with a little dova we would reach that captain to reach a lude over but ultimately the boss and the administration would know who has what it's just a matter of putting it that's what we mean by putting it on record you mentioned Peter go-to who is he the Pentagon he is John ghani's brother but more importantly he's a captain within our family now is it possible that buddy McGirt did not know that part of his earnings were going to organized crime it's very possible so very possible yes now you testified that several meetings were held to settle a dispute between the Gambino and Bufalino families concerning who owned parts boxer buddy McGirt contract I'd like you to watch an FBI surveillance videotape from November 15 1989 and identify if you can the three individuals shown on this tape you have to look I think that this screen here do you want me to answer senator who's oh yes if you would please the one in the in the middle I believe to be a tease canned Rhea the one on the right is me and the one on the left is Jojo Carazo now the these are the individuals who were involved in the dispute concerning which one owned part of mcgirt's contract is that correct yes do you recognize the locations shown by this videotape that's Mulberry Street Manhattan it's the REA it's the ravenite club which is the headquarters for the Gambino family one of that quarters buddy Gambino family now why why were you out walking rather than inside of the club discussing the matter of course we below believed that the FBI had electronic surveillance in a lot of different areas so when we talked we usually took what we call a walk talk no believed it would be picked up by electronic surveillance was this once for that matter was this one of the meetings concerning which organized crime which organized crime family owned a piece of a Gertz contract yes it was now how do you know that this particular video tape depicts one of the McGurk meetings I have never met with a dscan jury about anything other than McGurk before or after so that was the only meeting you had with the only meetings I had with him pertained to Al sorrow and McGurk now did Jon gotta tell you why he decided that McGirt belonged to the Gambino organized family crime he believed it belong to our family on my my decision by overhearing with Jojo carazzo and Eddie scanned Riya hearing the story I advised him that he belongs with our family and that that's how he based his decision in other words John told you that Jojo paid Eddie to walk away from a Gert now in meeting Joe Joe Garagiola told me that he had paid at one time earlier Eddie scan she was involved with buddy McGirt and they both were involved and at one point they weren't getting along and Joe Joe carazzo paid I believe it was $5,000 for Eddie scan jury to walk away they weren't getting along and Eddie Skinner who seemed to be happy to take the five thousand and walk away time after that he seemed to be doing very very well in boxing status was building the prices were building and he seemed to come back into play and wanted to be involved he admitted that he did take money but he said that he took the money from old monies that would do Joe Joe showed the prices that he fought for and they're really really was no money involved and there's no way he could have paid five thousand or better for backed up money which came to hundreds and I believed that Joe Joe was telling this truth and this is what I told John you stated in your opening testimony that you were released by the Colombo family to the Gambino family what did you mean by that well in that time I wasn't a made member I was on record I was on record I was an associate of the Colombo family I wasn't a made member and I was put on record with their family once you're on record you belong to that family and it takes an official release from that family to for you to leave thank you my time is up sent a coin or something McCain Senator McCain Thank You mr. chairman Thank You mr. Gravano for your testimony it's very interesting in part of your testimony you talked about a referee named Joey Curtis that could move sipes up in the World Boxing Council rankings yes sir and that's the outfit that's head by headed by mr. Jose Salomon I believe I really don't know who heads that organization I you are you have our fight fan though yes and yeah if you noticed in the past on other occasions that someone has moved up in the WBC rankings in time for a fight and then that person disappears or drops way down again have you seen that happen well it's common knowledge I'm not surprised by it I don't really follow that part of it but it's basically common knowledge that it can be done I wasn't sure at that point which sanctioning body did it because I really wasn't involved Joey Curtis made me aware of this sanctioning body I don't really know if any other sanctioning body does it or not but it was common knowledge that it could be done yeah it's not something that's a major secret if you you mentioned two names veto and affirm oh and and Marvin Hagler is both having mob ties or or have some their people having some connection is that correct yes and they both fought a couple of fights that might have been interesting could I ask you a couple of other names Emanuel Stewart any any connection there I know the name but I don't know of any connection with him mr. Duva mr. Lou Duva I understood to being with or close with anyway people in the Genovese family if we were going to go back into boxing we would be able to reach people in the Genovese family we would probably reach their boss who was chin and find out what could be done we never got to that point and mr. Don King you mentioned earlier had been approached but had been negative in response you have no other information about his connections I know or earlier on a lot of years ago this is before and John Gotti and myself took over the family that Don King had reached out for Paul Castellano and Paul Castellano didn't want to meet with him for whatever reason so I knew he was around I knew he had some ties and when we were considering Snipes and Damiani we were considering a possible conversation with him for promotional reasons for obvious reasons I mean he literally just about controls a good part of boxing which brings me but the connection with either mr. win or mr. Trump would have to would you know know of no direct connection except that they did have to do business with these individuals that control the majority of the best fighters said right they've done nothing wrong as far as I know and they're not with anybody as far as I know they're just in that business and they would have to deal with people we would have to reach the people that they would have to deal with in order to talk with them good idea I think it's important to make it clear miss chairman about some of these individuals we don't want to tar people with with a brush here you said in your statement that in the case of the Renaldo Snipes Damiani fight you said I'm sure that we would have had no problem in convincing Snipes to lose well why do you make that statement mr. Gravano I myself was very close with Snipes nice was broke at that particular point if we were able to set up a big payday fight I would have told him that it was X amount of dollars in a purse I probably would have approached him with some cash onto the table and he was shunned by Don King he was on the outskirts he couldn't get any more fights he was just about over the hill at 30-some odd years old and I believe I had enough of a relationship with him to convince him in that respect and if he would have agreed I'm sure he would have lived up to it at the end of your statement you say now because the size of the purses has gotten so big over the past 20 years organized crime is more and more interested in getting back into it do you have any specifics of that interest well for a long time there wasn't even talked about and for the years it was becoming more and more talked about again with the with a little dover and named like that within the industry it popped up i wasn't really in the boxing industry it was more of a hobby than me and i heard it on the outskirts my expertise in the Gambino family was in construction and I dealt with that but as the persons got bigger and bigger not only did John Gotti myself start to look at it but I'm sure in conversations that I've had with people more and more people were looking at it at these big fights you to have the opportunity to see many friends and adversaries yes Thank You mr. chairman thank you sir okay instead of coin follow-up questions with respect to mr. Snipes you indicated that he was sure that had Snipes given his word he would have lived up to it yeah right now what deterrent do you have if they don't live up to it let's suppose he got in the ring he felt pretty good and suddenly victory is a couple of punches away does he take a look out into the ring and decide that he sees you there or maybe John Gotti or somebody else and even though he smells victory and the other fighter may have unintentionally walked into a roundhouse punch what deterrent exists either expressly or implicitly to make sure that someone lives up to a an agreement I believe our whole background John Gotti's and mine our reputation yeah right now what deterrent do you have if they don't live up to it let's suppose he got in the ring he felt pretty good and suddenly victory is a couple of punches away does he take a look out into the ring and decide that he sees you there or maybe John Gotti of somebody else and even though he smells victory and the other fighter may have unintentionally walked into a roundhouse punch what deterrent exists either expressly or implicitly to make sure that someone lives up to a an agreement I believe our whole background John Gotti's and mine our reputation of what we did and what happened I believe if he would have knocked him out by accident he would have picked him up I I tried not to make it appear that was a rhetorical question is it is it clear in the the boxing industry as such or the profession that if a boxer let me put it this way have you ever heard of a box of being threatened with injury because he was unwilling to give organized crime a cut of his winnings I have never heard that personally and I know that's talked about not only in boxing but a lot of industries and I don't find that that really happens all that much I believe it's it's it's a two sided greed organized crime from what I've seen has a history of sharing a lot of contractors which relates slightly to the construction industry came to us for union favors and basically for greed because they made more money by coming to us it wasn't something that we had to force them over and along with this I happen to like when all those Snipes and had a high respect for him as a fighter and in a strange way I think I would have been fair as far as giving him his last hurrah and some money and it also would have met my purpose with Damiani to look so good and and beat some bodies classy as a fighter as I believe Snipes was you mentioned that McGirt never will not know that he's associated with organized crime he even indirectly is that right yes it's very possible is it well known that mr. Soto is associated with the organized crime yes so you can have a fighter who has someone who is a advisor manager promoter who's a so known to associate with organized crime and you basically are being handled by that person and yet you would not know that any of your earnings are going through the the money chain or the money tree as such to the roots of organized crime sure yes tell me how that works apparently when to get McGirt went to the trial of John Gotti yes now when someone when someone goes to a trial of someone who's known to be a top person in the organized crime family does that imply knowledge that the one is his earnings or in any way going in that direction I mean other what you got to know when it's a tactic of ours senator I'm sorry that you know no that's right it's a tactic of ours I believe there was a made member of Johnny de Giglio who was in the Genovese family who was on trial you know a federal trial I believe in New Jersey where Muhammad Ali and few people came to the trial and what I believe it does is that if you have black jurors and you see Sugar Ray Leonard or Muhammad Ali or a Joe Frazier you have a warm spot for these people which is basically you know I understand the tactic what I was wondering about the fighter himself al saud or somebody says we'd like to have you go to the trial of John Gotti well I'm sure al Sardo knows the motive I don't really know if buddy McGirt understands or knows the motive all right III say that because I'm not in those conversations I don't know what else I told tells him he could be conning him and saying you know he thinks the world he has a fighter why don't you come down Santa I don't know exactly Laura no that's fair enough I'm just trying to find out how the money flows perhaps you could at least trace for us the money well what happens when a fighter earns the the purse and then the manager gets promoted gets of a piece of that with how does the money go through the the family how does it trace the money for us if you would well I would go through the trainer or manager trainer manager he has a percentage of the fighter he would get a percentage of that one of the ways which there's a few ways would be that when he gets his check and he cashes it he sends his piece up whether whatever his deal maybe 20 30 40 50 percent whether he's partners with John Gotti whatever his specific deal is he'll send his end of the cash up after taxes because he obviously can't duck that but there's other ways where we could cheat or duck if I could use those times we would set up a gym if we were talking about real big money and we could talk about padding training expenses we could put people to work we can go into promotional we can go into a lot of areas to absorb part of that big purse especially when you're talking about prices that go into the tens of millions of dollars we can we would really be able to I don't know the words but we would really be able to lunge it to that what happens when a fighter finds out that in some way his earnings are going into organized crime and he wants to break away from that family does the family seek to prevent that from taking place well traditionally we've been given people a hard time with that situation fond of them walking away from us I'm sorry we're not too fond that I'm walking away and we would traditionally give them a hard time I don't know how far that would be up to each person in each particular crime family what they were doing so once organized crime has an interest in a fighter even though that fighter may not know that he is owned or at least influenced by organized crime he can't walk away well I wouldn't say that if his manager was with us he couldn't walk away if the fighter really knew nothing right I don't really know how we can go and go after him except for that he would lose his power base and connections and we were try and cut him more that way if he he himself shook I hand and made a deal with us it would be a lot harder for him to walk away so you might try if he didn't know he were in any way associated you might try to perhaps reduce his ratings or rankings we would use whatever tactics we can use short of violence because he really don't know what he's involved with if he knew what he was involved with we would use just about any tactic including violence now last year the subcommittee had some testimony alleging that Bob Lee who was in the New Jersey deputy boxing commission had taken a bribe in order to expedite an application for a boxing promoters license are you aware of any other instance in which there's corruption among the boxing commissions in New Jersey New York or anywhere in this country you talked about the WBC and operating a New Mexico and trying to influence the the rankings there what about here in the United States no I don't know any situation as I said and one final question if you were still a member of the Gambino family could you tell me or us what action by the the federal estate agencies it would take to convince you that it was time to move away from participating in boxing matches other words is there anything that the federal government could do to discourage organized crime from its association with boxing there the price is very small you know make the purses small and so no amount of federal regulation per se is going to deter the influence as long as the money is there I don't believe so senator no thank you that's all I have mr. chairman thank you thank you so the coins are all do you have any other question yes I do have a few more carrying on with the question of mr. Cohen have the state Commission's been effective in regulating boxing boxing insofar as a mob is concerned I don't even think we know that they exist to be honest with you I they're not that effective because they don't bother us and they don't hinder us in any of our movements and I've never heard them involved in any of the conversations that we would have to do this this or this to go around them so I I really don't I don't even know what they don't basically if the federal government by one means or another became involved in regulation would that make a difference with the mob be more circumspect more concerned about being involved in in boxing no makes no difference at all no do you you testified that Joey Curtis told you he could move up your boxers ranking in the WBC for five to ten thousand dollars Joey Curtis has categorically denied to staff that anyone like that that anything like that ever happened are you certain of your testimony senator I can only say what I know I'm not I can't really comment on what they say and what they don't say I can only comment that what I say is the truth and I only say exactly what I know and that was a Joey Curtis told you he could move up your boxers ranking in the WBC for five to ten thousand dollars is that correct yes do you recall Joey curtis visiting the ravenite social club yes I don't now mr. Curtis admits visiting the social club but says it's open to any member of the public is that correct no it's a private club it's the Gambino headquarters and if you want me to explain it slightly there's a brook wool with almost no windows a steel door when at any given time ten 15 guys standing outside smoking some cigars and stuff and I don't really think that that's a sign that we're open to the public an attorney for Renaldo Snipes is a former manager SEL Pasquale II advised that they would invoke the Fifth Amendment have called to testify heard today they did admit in a staff interview that they attended a meeting with you Atlantic City in which a future boxing match was discussed but they claimed the meeting was set up in the spur of the moment not planned in in advance is this true well I don't believe senator that you can set up you can walk into Donald Trump's boxing staff unannounced and have a meeting that you were going to fight for a a championship fight it would have to be something that was set up I didn't know Marquette is from a hole in the wall prior to that and I don't see how that could be done and I'm sure that the marketers who really did and I don't believe that anything wrong knows of the meeting and knows it was it was set up I mean I just didn't walking off the street now our other Gambino family members involved in boxing gyms excuse me senator our other members of the Gambino family involved in boxing gyms but what about John Gotti junior well there's a there's a gym that we're involved with at Tommy Galaga has he was a longtime friend of John Gotti I believe now he has a gym in Queens and is very very close with John jr. and I believe his gym is right next to the right around the bargain hunt and fish club in Queens I believe he looked for some funding and some backing and and found it my last question is some people might ask what difference does it make if organized-crime owns a piece of a boxer but isn't it true that organized crime even when involved in a legitimate business tries to cheat take advantage to cut corners does it make a difference if organized the mob owns a piece of the boxer well again we do have that habit of cheating a little bit and if we have this we use it as contacts in not only boxing but a lot of other areas that we look at we look past just strictly to boxing when we meet whether it be officials of state or a person like Trump the conversations might start to drift from boxing into construction or whatever we felt we could do if somebody went to John and said that he wanted to buy a condo in Trump Tower and we were talking to him about boxing I'm sure that a week later or a month later the conversation would start to change into buying that condo or doing the sheetrock in one of the buildings that he's doing or the plumbing or the electrical law and and this is what we've done in the past and a lot of industries fairly well we walked away from the boxing but again as it started to build money-wise and power base wise we would get back into it for a lot of host of different reasons because of the big bucks now involved in boxing should we expect more involvement on the part of organized crime in boxing I believe so they'll go where the money is excuse me they'll go where the money is yes that's all the questions I have mr. chairman mr. Cubano one one final question I believe in your statement or an answer to one of the early questions you mentioned that there was someone in Cleveland who had access to Don King could you tell us who that was and what kind of access I don't know who the specific person was when I said that I was referring to the Cleveland family the Cleveland family has certain ties to Don King and Raymond Patriarca who is the boss in Providence told us that he knew of this and he can reach the Cleveland people to tell them to make it have Duncan meet us okay any other questions under also Cohen's of the McCain okay I think that's all mr. bono we appreciate your cooperation with a subcommittee we've been very helpful thank you very much thank you we'll have security take mr. bono out and we'll I'll ask everyone to remain seated until that occurs our next witnesses today will be staff counsel Layton Lord and staff counsel Steve Levin of the perma Subcommittee on investigations they have conducted a very extensive investigation into professional boxing this afternoon they will provide us with more of the results of that investigation I'll ask both of you to hold up your right hand before you take your seat take the oath you swear the testimony you give before the subcommittee oh-wee truth the whole truth nothing but the truth so help you God thank you please proceed Thank You senator when the Senate last looked into professional boxing over 30 years ago it found a nationwide conspiracy between organized crime and members of the boxing industry to control the major boxing contrast in the United States boxing greats such as Jake LaMotta testified that they were forced to cooperate with underworld figures to have the opportunity to compete for championship titles the nature of organized crime involvement in box the boxing industry has changed since the 1940s and 1950s rather than attempting to profit from complete control of boxing as was the case thirty years ago organized crime now attempts to profit by controlling individual boxers and managers or by exercising influence with regard to an individual promoter today members and associates of organized crime also participate in boxing as managers advisors and investors as a result organized crime profits from in affects the sport of boxing the primary attraction for organized crime is of course the large sums of money that can be made as Senator Roth stated a boxer can make in one event what it took a box or a lifetime to earn 30 years ago in addition the boxing industry is ideally suited for infiltration by organized crime because it is ineffectively regulated state boxing regulators make almost no effort to exclude organized crime members and associates from participating in boxing even where state regulations explicitly prohibit such involvement our investigation has under covered evidence that a number of organized crime figures are heavily involved with several well-known boxers we do not however make the claim that all or even most boxers are connected with organized crime very little investigation has been done in this area by law enforcement entities we have moreover found no evidence to indicate that organized crime currently exerts the type of influence over the sport of boxing that it did in the 1940s and 1950s we concentrated our investigation on three case studies involving the organized crime connections of two former and current world champion each of these boxers has denied that they are knowingly controlled or influenced by organized crime whether these boxers are unwitting dupes or willing participants with organized crime figures is unclear these three case studies illustrate three forms of organized crime involvement in boxing and also represent three examples of how the current regulatory structure has failed to keep organized crime out of the boxing industry when the far right of the chart we have the name of former IBF super middleweight champion Iran Berkeley Berkeley has held WBC middleweight title and has had a number of high-profile big money fights Barkley testified at a subcommittee deposition that he currently does not have a manager of record but that he does have several unlicensed advisers one of these advisers is Lenny minuto minuto is classified by several law enforcement agencies as an associate of the Lucchese crime family there's additional information that he's had passed and possibly current affiliations with the Gambino and Genovese families minuto is believed to be active in the gampa crew of the Lucchese family at this time minuto also has a criminal record including seven gambling convictions in one conviction for bribing a public official and I'd like to note senator before going any further that enlisting any person on this chart as having organized crime connections we have followed the past psi standard of requiring cooperating information from at least two separate law enforcement agencies and in the case of mr. minuto we also have an affidavit submitted by mr. Alphonse d'arco the current the former underboss of the Lucchese family indicating mr. minutos Lucchese connections and at this time I'd like to offer four introduction a copy of the d'arco affidavit Berkeley testified at deposition that Lenny minuto assists him with contract negotiations and with personal investments according to Berkeley minuto receives 10% of Barclays earnings which would equal roughly $100,000 for Barclays most recent fight against James Toney we also have other evidence however indicating that minuto received as much as two hundred and twenty five thousand dollars from the Tony fight alone the Barclays minuto relationship is illustrative of how organized crime figures are involved in the boxing industry as unpaid as paid unlicensed advisers the practice of calling oneself an advisor appears to be an attempt to avoid state licensure requirements despite the fact that so-called advisers often fit statutory definitions of managers most states have very broad definitions of a boxing manager for example in New Jersey a manager is defined as anyone who directly or indirectly directs or administers the affairs of a boxer or anyone who is entitled to 10% or more of a boxer's earnings one obvious reason that Lenny minuto and others like him might wish to avoid licensure is the fear of being denied a license and thereby excluded from participating in boxing because of their criminal records of organized crime associations the fear however is largely unfounded since state boxing regulators do not as a rule require that inquire into the criminal history or background of their licensure applicants the Box are represented in the middle of the chart is WBA cruiserweight champion Bobby Chas Chas has had a long career with his most profitable fights taking place in the last few years in 1981 Chaz's father sold the right to Chaz's future boxing earnings to Andrew Licari and Andrew Dombrowski under the agreement lekar in Dombrowski were to receive a percentage of Chas future earnings in exchange for $300,000 initially Licari and Dembrowski were to receive 26% of jezza's earnings for five years and then 5% for an additional five years the agreement has however been modified twice so that Licari and Dembrowski could continue to receive 26% of Chaz's boxing earnings chest testified at the subcommittee's August hearing that he voluntarily extended the boxing agreement because Licari and dombrowski had not gotten their investment back the most Arista greement which is oral apparently remains in force today Licari is classified by several law enforcement entities as they Lucchese soldier and has been alleged to be a part of what was the assert ro crew of the Lucchese family he's also identified as such and the previously mentioned affidavit a former Lucchese acting boss Alphonse d'arco Dombrowski is classified as a Lucchese associate at a subcommittee deposition Licari denied membership in or involvement with organized crime McCrory did however acknowledge personal contact with the alleged members of the a sartorial crew Macari and dombrowski are not licensed to participate in boxing state boxing regulations generally do not require that passive investors such as Licari in Dombrowski be licensed to participate in boxing or that investor that investments such as the one held by Licari in the browse key be recorded or disclosed the boxer in the far left of the chart is James buddy McGirt McGirt has had two world titles and recently paid a purse of 1 million dollars in his unsuccessful - defense of his WBC title mcgirt's relationship with organized crime exists on two levels the first levels mcgirt's management team of al sorrow and Stuart wiener law enforcement is long considered certo and associate of the Genovese and Gambino crime families my own purposes when you put a chart up there like that you're not suggesting that any of the fighters involved know that they are involved in any way the organized crime that's right senator and we don't take a position on that whatsoever because we have no evidence and with respect to the second line of individuals you're not are you making allegations about any of the individuals involved there that they are actively involved yes senator we have law information from law enforcement at least two cooperating law enforcement agencies as as we require under our internal rules that they do in fact have organized crime connections you say and then we could keep it going I'm sorry mcgirt's relationship with organized crime exists on two levels the first level is mcgirt's management team of al sorrow and stuart weiner law enforcement is long considered certo an associate of the Genovese and Gambino crime families Weiner is an associate of the Gambino family and has been recently named in an indictment handed down by the Manhattan district attorney's office as a member of the Jojo carazzo crew of the Gambino family certo and weiner each receive at least 33 and a third percent managers cut of mcgirt's box or boxing earnings certo and weiner share various management responsibilities yet only certo is licensed as a manager at this time weiner has not been licensed to participate in boxing since 1991 when he was licensed as a second in nevada although weiner has avoided licensure his relationship with McGirt is not secret both McGirt and certo at subcommittee depositions acknowledged that weiner serves as a co-manager to McGuirk in addition Weiner has also received payments due McGirt directly from a Gertz promoter Madison Square Garden Weiner has also also has check writing authority on the account of Alfred sorties Mo Inc the company that receives all of mcgirt's boxing earnings Weiner is clearly acting as an unlicensed Co manager in violation of several different state regulations the second level of mcgirt's involvement with organized crime is the secret ownership by Gambino soldier Joseph Jojo carazzo of some percentage of mcgirt's earnings feroz's ownership of McGirt was first revealed to the subcommittee by Salvatore Gravano who just testified about the relationship subcommittee depositions of cerdo an McGirt revealed that weiner is a personal friend of carazzo and that both surdo a McGirt were introduced to carazzo by weiner sir TOA McGirt both testified under oath that through their knowledge carazzo does not have an ownership interest in mcgirt's boxing earnings jojo carazzo invoked the Fifth Amendment in responds to all questions during his subcommittee deposition subcommittee staff with the assistance the governmental Accounting Office conducted a comprehensive analysis of the financial records of Alfred fortissimo Inc the company controlled by surdo and weiner that holds all of McGirt earnings although we found no direct evidence of payments being made to carazzo we did find a pattern of very questionable payment practices the exhibit on my right represents the flow of funds from regards November 29 1991 fight against Simon Brown this exhibit illustrates how all money do McGirt goes directly to Alfred fortissimo Inc in this case mcgirt's promoter Madison Square Garden wrote checks directly to Alfred Tootie Simone ink from McGirt Spurs earnings and training expenses we also have evidence that Madison Square Garden paid wiener forty thousand dollars of the money owed McGirt in cash but haven't but have been unable to determine if this money's been deposited or how it's been spent and I'd like to point out that we list a check number there because we initially thought that it was paid by check because we got a check showing the $40,000 payment we have since discovered that the check was voided and it was never negotiated in the transaction was actually conducted in cash although Nevada has a regulation requiring that a boxer be paid directly McGirt requested that the Nevada Commission waived this regulation so that Alfred City Samoa Inc will be paid directly since such regulations are intended to lessen the likelihood that a box will be cheated by his management this arrangement is questionable and circumvents the state the intent of state regulations one questionable pattern and practice involves the so called third-party endorser transactions the exhibit that we're now putting up illustrates this practice as the exhibit indicates Stewart Wiener wrote a check for $3,000 to himself and I'm referring to the top check then as the back of the check indicates which is right under it he endorsed the check with his name and then wrote the third-party endorsement of Alfred sati Samoa Inc although it looks like the check was redeposited into Alfred Tootie some inks account the corresponding back bank statement does not list a specific three thousand dollar deposit surdo testified it position that such checks are on occasion converted into cash our analysis of Alfred sati simoleons checks bank statements and tax records indicate that practically all third party endorser checks are apparently converted into cash over 10% of all checks written on the outputs fortissimo Inc account for a three-year period were handled in this matter a second questionable pattern involves the practice of writing two separate checks to the same payee on the same day this practice is illustrated by the same exhibit that we have up now as you can see Stuart Wiener wrote two checks to himself from March 31 1990 check number 12 89 which is on the top is for $3,000 check 1290 one on the bottom is for two thousand one hundred and seventy dollars the three thousand dollar check was third party endorsed leading us to suspect it was converted into cash in the two thousand one hundred and seventy dollar check appears to have been deposited in another account on eight separate occasions sort wiener wrote himself two separate checks for significant amounts of money on the same day on one day Weiner wrote three separate checks to himself while this evidence is not conclusive proof of wrongdoing it clearly provides a ready method for siphoning off large sums of money in the form of cash in conclusion how does writing the second one siphon off large amount of money in that case if he writes a check out to himself and cashes it and there's a bank record of it how is that siphoning off money well senator on the bottom we are tip we are assuming that he might have deposited that into an account although if it's if it's his bank he could have cashed it we have no idea I'm saying the top check which is a third party endorser check was likely converted into cash because in our analysis of all the deposits made into Alfred to Samoa Inc up against their income reflected on their tax records - loans shows that these checks could not have been redeposited or that wouldn't have balanced and Gao helped us come to the conclusion of that analysis but that wouldn't apply the second check though we have no idea because we we did not we did not subpoena mr. Weiner's bank records we have no idea that is the case in conclusion we have no reason to believe that under the present regulatory structure anything will change the current regulatory structure has had over 30 years to rid boxing of organized crime influence and involvement and it is not done so we agree with the view of former organized crime member Michael Franzese and former FBI agent Joseph Spinelli that the most effective way to rid boxing of organized crime is federal oversight of the industry the senator at this time I would like to have I have a list of 40 sealed and some unsealed mostly unsealed exhibits that I'll request be admitted to the record at this time without objection they'll be a little brighter thank you and we'll be happy to answer any questions well the first question I would ask you is in spite of the testimony we had last fall that the the best way to rid organized crime of involvement in boxing is to have strong federal oversight we just had someone who was actively involved in organized crime and the boxing profession he indicated we'll make very little difference as long as the money is there well sir you have any response to that I think from the people we have talked to in our personal views staff I would have to disagree the federal government did a very good job of capturing mr. Cubano so I think the federal government has done a good job at prosecuting and investigating organized crime and I think they would do so if they'd run it was under a federal boxing oversight okay perhaps you can tell us a bit more about the the function of state licensing boards and their relationship to boxing participants and advisors licensed advisors and unlicensed advisors well as far as unlicensed well unlicensed advisors go there is no relationship between them and the state regulatory agencies because they totally circumvent the licensing process they are not licensed they don't put in applications for license and as far as we can tell the boxing commissions don't go after them don't try to force them to be licensed or don't try to exclude them from boxing if they are in fact participating in the sport well do they perform any functions that would otherwise bring them within the scope of state regulation yes senator in many cases they do I think the examples in our chart Lenny minuto is one if he in fact receives 10% of Iran Barclays Boxing earnings then he is a manager under the New Jersey definition of a manager anyone who receives 10% or more of a boxer's earnings and he would therefore have to be licensed as a manager in that state other states have very broad definitions of a manager anyone who helps direct the career of the boxer he certainly according to the deposition of mr. Barkley is helping to direct his career it would have to be licensed as a manager in that capacity also should we have a uniform definition of what constitutes an adviser yes senator or what constitutes a manager so it would encompass all of these advisers okay now mr. Levin I think the staff statement indicates as evidence that mr. Linney minuto may have received as much as $225,000 in connection with mr. Barclays last fight do I explain the evidence and how you arrived at that figure certainly senator the fight were referring to was the Iran Barclays James Toney IBF super middleweight championship fight in his deposition I ran Barclays said that he was going to pay mr. minuto $100,000 from that fight in addition Bob Arum who was the promoter of that fight has told us that in order to get Barclays to agree to that fight he had to agree to a side deal where arm would pay minuto 125,000 dollars thus bringing minutest total take from that fight to $225,000 is there any evidence that mr. Barclays himself knew about this we have no evidence that mr. Barclays knew about the well let me let me backtrack the deposition of mr. Barclays was taken prior to the fight so talking about the hundred thousand dollars he was saying that prospectively that that's what he was going to pay with regard to this side deal between mr. minuto and and mr. harem yes mr. irons said that mr. Barclays was involved with the negotiations and therefore presumably was aware of that side deal also okay are there any background checks that are currently undertaken for those who apply for licensing to participate in boxing No if you like if you submit an application to be licensed you have to fill out a form if we ask certain questions but to our knowledge no one checks the answers no one checks to see if the individual has a criminal record or has any organized crime involvement who's young who should be in the business of checking background you suggestions suggesting that commissions do that work probably not I think law enforcement would probably be the best best person to do that much like much in the way the Senate does background checks of of people who are being appointed to positions they could simply call the local law enforcement or the federal law enforcement and ask if the individual has a criminal record or known associations something like that and the primary reason that current state-based regulatory systems are not effective is what well I think one of the primary reasons I mean a lot of the states have very good regulations on the books the problem is they just don't enforce those regulations the unlicensed adviser example is a good one because a lot of states have regulations requiring these people be licensed they just don't enforce those regulations the second problem is inconsistency as you just mentioned there is a Matt there's a definition for a manager in every different state so you may be a manager under one state but not under the next and it's very confusing could you explain a little more detail what methodology you use to analyze the financial practices of alford searches

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Published: Fri Sep 13 2019