Ta Nehisi Coates "We Were Eight Years in Power: An American Tragedy" (10/17/17 - Parker)

[Music] good evening everyone thanks so much fan for bringing me it's always great to be reunited with my good friend Tallahassee and we decided to dress alike tonight I told her we got different shoes yeah switch it up a little bit I could rock the soul so what I you know when I got the book this summer and really didn't even know what the book was going to be about I mean when I opened it I was like oh this is like a this is like a mixtape [Music] the best uh but then a remix with the pre essays so that really in your love of hip-hop like were you thinking did you think mixtape at all I did but I think as I write in one of those essays I came which one it which one it is but I'm so glad the mic works whoever the sound guy was I was giving in trouble thank you whoever you are he told me he knew it he knew what he was though he's right you've had so much we've had trouble issues no issues tonight yeah it's still time to mess this up no I I think though like I have a buddy and she says everybody has an art that's kind of like their first language and for me that's hip-hop so I would not reject that illusion it has a huge influence over how I write and how I think about you know in writing in general so I certainly would not reject that we were years in power talk about the origin of that quote and linking it to good Negro government yes so in 1895 there was a congressman a former congressman by the name of Thomas Miller Thomas Miller was a congressman out of South Carolina at the end of the Civil War during a period of reconstruction or a remarkable period in American history where I'm sorry it's gonna be a little long I'm sorry stick with me ah I give this answer people just you know reconstruction work doing this so milk Miller was a congressman a Reconstruction era congressman and you know he was one of a one of the contributors to arguably the most genuine moment of multiracial democracy in this country brief period eight years five of the civil war where you had you know African Americans who had been enslaved African Americans who had been free suddenly have access not just to the vote but to the halls of power you had you know black governor's you know for the first time you had black senators and you had black congressman one of which was Thomas Miller and in 1895 after the country had retreated from the promise of Reconstruction and basically had you know reunited itself on the principle of white supremacy the South Carolina legislature went about the business of really finishing off the process of disenfranchising black people in South Carolina now you have to understand what that means in 1895 the majority of people living in South Carolina were black so it when I talk about minority rights we're talking about apartheid effectively and that was what you know that was not just true in South Carolina in a state like Mississippi for instance I think a lot of times when we think about people being deprived of well you think about a small minority population but really actually what what you're talking about is a the total destruction of democracy in eighty sort of form in those states and Miller could not understand why white South Carolina's would want to do this and he took the floor to address the Constitutional Assembly and he said you know we were eight years in power he didn't mean just black people he meant you know this multiracial experiment that included black people but it wasn't just black people and he said in that in that period of time we constructed the state of South Carolina there was no real public school system but for those black folks offered a plantation and those two free black folks joined in government with you know a sympathetic white folks that were willing to work with them they established an entire architecture you know of the state they established what would have been called a saint in psalms and at that time they established what we you know today would call prisons they as he said reconstructed the entire state he said I have to having done all of that after giving all this to the state why would you strip us of Rights he was dumbfounded and the boys WB Dubois reporting on this you know many many years later about 50 years later in his a great book black reconstruction he maintains that Miller didn't quite understand he didn't apprehend that the true monstrosity of white supremacy and he had this line I was reading you know our black reconstruction as I was working on this book and he says what what Miller failed to understand was the only thing white supremacists in South Carolina feared more than bad Negro government was good Negro government the idea was it was the very fact that they had succeeded that was the insult and so he's making this appeal we did well he doesn't get that's the whole point they know you did well but the fact that you did well insults white supremacy it makes it you know harder to you know it makes white supremacy much less tenable and so the whole idea of disenfranchisement you know was you know and it's not to say the folks will come on admit this but in their heart of hearts it's about not having to compete with certain people you know and so they'll say well you can't run with me but really if I don't let you compete with me then you know that that question is taken off the table to begin with I think that was an incredible truth that you can see reverberating throughout African American history and throughout American history actually I think it you know tells us a lot about the past eight years and in this country I think there was you know a large number not most but a large number disturbingly large number of people in this country who feared good Negro government I mean that not just in terms of policies passed and you know the ability to actually you know make government work although with the current government in power we're now seeing how important that actually is but it's also about comportment you know I always tell people like Barack and Michelle were like a walking advertisement and an ambassador as you will for the integration of black people into the most visual middle-class American norms here you have a ivy-league-educated professor first black head of the other of the Harvard Law Review married to this black woman you know from the south side you know who's also Ivy league-educated two beautiful kids dog named Bo this is the best we got and now you know you can't accept this I mean I don't know how you're gonna deal with me because you ain't gonna work and the fact of the matter is you know I think that very ordinariness that you know very you know success and appealing to those values who's actually two insults that was what you know that that was the thing that that that you know it was seen as dangerous and I think there's a strain of that you know all the way through American history I won't bore you with other examples but that that was the the origin of the title and most people don't know that you were a history major yes I did not graduate with a history diploma I did not graduate at all but I was a history major I thought about myself thinking was the we were eight years in power was that a double entendre like we understand you tell my reconstruction but then as an Obama is it black people is it black writers mm-hmm I mean I certainly think I have some success Obama age just as you repeatedly point out for yourself right right no I think that's true I think there were the Black Riders who were empowered by the fact of Obama I did not think black people I know a lot of people read the title that way but I didn't read it that way because that's not what Thomas Miller was saying you know he wasn't saying we as black people were you know because that wasn't true he was speaking to the actual government and I felt the same way about Obama and you know like it being very you know narrow narrow caste I would never say black people were in power which implies I can kind of control over that over the country you know it didn't really exist do you think the symbolism of Obama is more important than the policies of Obama no but I think symbolism is underrated I think one of the ways that people criticize Barack Obama and I you know I have my you know share critiques myself but I think one of the things they say is well and I don't think this is true but you know one things that you hear well there was no substance it was just symbolism and I tell them symbolism is not just symbolism if it meant something that you had an unbroken string of white male presidents and then that ended and we all maintain that it did there was nobody before Barack Obama who would say that it meant nothing that a you know a black person was never present nobody would say there's nobody who would say now that it means nothing that there's never been a woman president course it means something it means a lot you know so then you have to accept them when that string is broken that must mean something to you know and I think the hard thing is the very um I think problem is it doesn't mean as much as people want it to me but it means something you know it definitely means something you know it you know means that you know to me you know among other things among other things it means to me that if you are African American and you're really really really really smart and you work really really really hard and you get really really lucky like really like the country's falling apart and there's no one else to turn to and they're like we tried that already might be president you might you might be I mean and that wasn't true thirty years ago unis area like I don't think like I you know I was I was doing this event actually for president Frederick at his house and Kurt Schmoke was there Kirsch moat was the first elected black mayor of Baltimore and there were a whole crop of politicians before Barack Obama who could have been Barack Obama but it was not their time it just wasn't their time so you you you you have to say something has changed something is clearly different you know it's not everything it's not the wealth gap you know buddy-buddy but it is something I remember during the 2008 election This American Life was out I think it was pencil being and they knocked on this white family's door and he said who are you voting for and she asked her husband she said we voting for the mm-hmm probably or not but it was like yeah the economy it was just such a disarray we're gonna this is super gonna vote for one of the pieces that I did not read when it originally came out was about why black people don't visit silver war sites and I have found myself recently thinking about maybe my own not uncomfortability what slavery you know Colson whiteheads book is great mmm-hmm you know I've read Jubilee as a child we watch the roots every Sunday and dressed up in eat fried chicken in my house with other families like Chloe what no white people right but there is there's a lot of slavery in popular culture and there has been a part of me that has thought is it just showing black people as victims like why is the slavery image the image that we see a lot but I think what I realized that it's we we don't talk about slavery in economics or economic terms it becomes as the you know the noble slave like all slaves are good which is why Coulson's book was so good cuz they showed like humanity and slavery which I can't ever really recall I heard the Underground was good I've never saw it on WGN but I've challenged my stuff like ok we can show these images but I don't think we link it enough to capital is own right and the founding of this the this country but talk about your sort of journey of you know not just the reconstruction but looking at at slavery and why you were visiting those site you know what it is now I think for whatever reason there is a liberal mode of analyzing the problem of racism in this country and and and that's not even vocabulary people would use they would use the problem of race and there's a lot of which I don't I don't use that there's a lot of talk about like the heart like it's always like this kind of moral appeal you know good people racism is a cancer and in India you know American heart you know it's a very um I don't know sentimentalists kind of take and what people don't understand is like enslavement was big business like they don't understand it that way and I didn't understand it that way and you know book is a large part you know about my discovery of this and for instance and I've said this so if you ever heard me speak forgive me for repeating it but it's a very very important set of facts that I understand you have four million roughly 4 million enslaved black people in the country at the start of the Civil War at the time no slaves put together were worth approximately three billion dollars okay about seventy five billion in today's dollars three billion dollars in 1860 was more than all the bank's all the factories nations factories all the shipyards all be everything all the productive capacity in this country put together was worth less than the 4 million bodies that were enslaved in the south if you wanted to find where the largest concentration of millionaires was in this country wasn't in Chicago whether in New York it wasn't in Boston it was in the Mississippi River Valley 60% of our exports in 1860 were cotton it was huge like it was Jack like when I when people you know it becomes sort of cliche but people say well you couldn't have America without slavery this sounds we're talking no it's literally true yes I mean you try to extract that wealth out of the cut and you don't you just don't have the same country you know you you you really don't as I said you know in the beginning a majority of people living in South Carolina were enslaved majority of people living in Mississippi were enslaved half the people living in Louisiana half the people living in Georgia nearly half the people living in Alabama I mean this was a huge huge deal and if you go and visit it you ever visited that the Civil War battle parks battlefields in this country they're getting better about this but they will struggle to explain to you why some seven eight hundred thousand people died states rights don't do it right to do what exactly you know I was different different lifestyle so 800,000 people that's what happened I get a disagreement mean this is sort of explanations that have been historically 800,000 people die but usually when you have I mean this is 20 percent on a white male military age population in the South was exterminated in the Civil War that's like demand some sort of powerful interests at work and the answer that is that you know that the the economic institution of slavery and how that economic institution you know basically became a social I try to explain this to people you know and forgive me I don't want to like make light you know I'm sorry but it's the best way that I can understand it you know like how like home ownership is not just you know Americans have huge amounts of wealth in their homes but if you try to explain home ownership to to an alien you wouldn't just talk about the wealth right you would talk about the institution you were talking about how their magazines you know dedicated to home ownership in fixing up your home how homeowners get together and talk about what they want to do you know to their homes and you know putting on a new extension and all the good things that homeowners talk about you talk about all the businesses that come out of the fact of having home ownership you talk about our tax code you have this big huge conversation about all the things that come out of something that seems so smart well enslavement was the same thing there were whole institutions you know in laws and you know social ideas to be you know a rich person in the South was to own black people period there was no other thing that was what you did much like when you have money you go and buy a home that's the thing you do in America in the south you went and bought people everybody you know did it and so it was a system in which folks were totally totally messed that has nothing to do with how pure your heart is that's nothing to do with it you know any sort of cancer and you know there's no real way you know a more organized SN there's no moral component to owning people obviously there is but I just think you know that that's a way of us establishing a kind of distance from something that we find a as opposed to confronting the much more disturbing truth that we would have own people too you know that it says you know something about like the power of institutions or systems it's probably no surprise that my favorite piece of yours would be the case of reparations Chicago no not just know I was glad you're on the west side not on my turf the south side I think that you and I and others we're starting to read some of the same literature at the same time like we had the exact same sources and our work scholars who've looked at home ownership and you know my journey realizing that this is the crux just just your your explanation of home ownership but how home ownership we we decided well Woodrow Wilson decided I learned this in Richard Rothstein's book I've always wondered like what at home ownership become this thing like before FDR right well Wilson thought that home ownership would prevent people if people owned property they wouldn't revolt like they were in Russia yeah and so all the in we we've america has said this is the system for wealth building but we're going to systematically say black people are not going to be a part of this system right and I don't think we talked about that enough yeah and you also talking you're in your journey with this going from the you know individual work really hard and have some luck to these structural forces which makes this about race not class I'm of course their inch why but you could be a wealthy black person and still had the same deleterious effect yeah yeah and it's almost race as class because what effectively has happened is black people you know comprise a totally different economic class you know it's outside of you know sort of mainstream on this if you're talking about there is no comparison between the like black middle-class people and white like none none I mean none at all I'll give you an example if you look at the gap between unemployment it persists at every level between black-and-whites to say it persist for college for high school dropouts high school graduates college graduates college dropouts Ivy League we're at every level you know what I mean it it's persistent you know well to God you know it's the same it is you know I think about like like myself and how I grew up right I had two parents none who worked I lived in a neighborhood though that like you would not think somebody with two parents who worked would and I didn't understand why at the time you know but it's relatively normal for quote unquote black middle-class or black where to live on a totally different level and to live in a different kind of way I think the reason why we don't talk about those because it just it explains too much you know it becomes immediately clear you know why things are the way they are it's an easy answer I mean you look at like like with the homicide you know rate and all these people talking about black on black crime scars not hard to understand you know those for some P and it really it truly is if you systematically wall off a group of people if you deprive them of resources by law by the way but by law through the efforts of the public sector and the private sector if those people have a history before even that of being deprived of wealth being you know being plundered as I argue in the case for reparations and you have extremely lacks gun laws in your country what I'll tend to be some some effects you know some things will you know come out of that and so I think one of the problems problems is we discussed this as a black issue but but it's not I mean it's not in other words by which I mean has nothing to do with the color of my skin you know you say black on black as though I I am doing something that no other group of people would do if you put them in the very same condition you know people tend to tell the people they're around I mean this this is the regrettable truth most white people are killed by other white people I mean that that's just true so I mean it's not like when black people you know kill they're going to you know get in a car and drive you know that's not how you know crime and violent crime tends to happen that's not true of any human community anywhere and so why it would be different for black people why you would be surprised that it's more of it for black people given the specific conditions specific history I don't know that the problem is once you see that and once it's cleared the state did this and you know we can you know without a doubt food that the state did it the obvious question becomes okay where were you and do about it you know cuz you did do this you clearly I mean it's not even debatable you did it we ended in addition to retiring like let's say why don't white crime instead of black on black crime I think we should start saying white segregation right as well seriously so we're in this moment where I think maybe we're too close but I think history is gonna really judge us hard yeah I think our grandchildren gonna be like what the hell was going on ya know it's bad it's bad credible you're responsible incredibly irresponsible it's bad it's bad no I think you're I'm sorry I mean country no I mean what is your what is your prediction like what 50 years I mean how are we gonna have distance in 10 years is it gonna be 25 is it gonna be after we're gone like what you know when this happens and it has happened at other points in American history like there were people who knew and said it at the time that the Trail of Tears was bad like people knew this was a horrible moral people often make this excuse me but they say well you know such-and-such was a man at a time they say such-and-such was a man at a time and every time they have people who know who this is wrong you understand what I'm saying it's always a taste and so it is not the case that you know say like you know we're going through this effort right now people are taken down so it's not the case that robert e lee was a man of history she's not true this is not true to black people we all knew he was wrong they were up their time too you know and other people knew he was wrong John Brown was also of this time you know I mean it is never the case that they're you know they're just you know a minute that no one knows and we're in this moment right now I mean it I don't know I mean I get this cause I said well times are you saying everybody who voted for Trump was a racist or white supremacist or a no well somebody are you okay with it though right no no I know I don't I don't I don't any more than I think every person in Nazi Germany was a rabid anti-semite but that that is you know a very low bar an extremely low bar because the fact of the matter is you know and we obviously have less excuse you know the the obvious you know fact to me is that the majority of people not majority people everyone who voted with Trump had no problem with a white supremacist of a racist being president so you might personally in your heart say you're okay with it but you were cool giving this dude anouk's see that that you thought that was okay you know you thought you know a dude who bragged about sexual harassment should be you know the most sexual assault you know I do that bagged about sexual assault like should be the most powerful person in the world arguably you thought that was okay you know that's me is enough that's that's damning enough I mean you don't need to you know personally you know be you know X Y Z the fact that dude and I think people are gonna be like y'all lost your minds now you're like there's a ecology of how journalism works and you have a lot more freedom than some other reporters but they're like some really insane debates going on in newsrooms we're like why are we debating whether to call him a white supremacist I don't I don't guess I mean the dude said the judge couldn't look at his case because he's a Mexican that's what he said that that's what he said you don't have me I don't I don't I don't I don't understand how this is like vague at all except that it's too horrible to accept it as that some white people think that you have to own a hood in your closet like that's the bar for races right but that's that's Escapist yeah that's escapism you know I don't have to burn the flag with people that call me anti-american that's not the boss of me you know so I think people put that bar intentionally high in order to excuse a lot of the race and gender analysis sometimes I feel is off like people who no matter how how you feel about the candidates like there's no sexism in Clinton's loss and there's no racism in Trump's win right how do you factor gender um in this last cycle I think it was huge and I think it was absolutely huge again I think um even if you take the fact of Hillary Clinton off the table which you should not again somebody bragged about sexual assault and was elected president is qualified like the Vice like that's not a disqualifier like that's a huge and and that this was by the way consistent with other behavior like so let's not make this sound like it was a one-off you know I just do don't have other people accused he does he does so I think that was a huge statement I think what was it a second debate you know where as far as I'm sure he's sexually aroused he was lurking yeah onstage you know what I mean I could not act that way and nor should I be able to towards a woman in my workplace you know towards another human being period uh somehow that was okay you know how that is to say nothing other crowds where you know somebody yells you know Trump that Trump that like that's what we're doing now you know so no it was it was a huge factor in huge I don't think I think the standard and I have my own you know thoughts and and criticisms of Hillary Clinton but I think the standard for her obviously was not sustained for Donald Trump somebody was clearly being held to a higher standard you know I mean and I think I don't know I mean that is the essence of it that that's the essence of you know any sort of you know racism sexism what have you it is that I am forgiving over here and significantly less forgiving over it you know that I expect you know a kind of morality out of you know one person and then I excuse it you know when I see it coming from somebody else you know there's no I'm sorry I mean I everyone is but like this notion that like Hillary's alive though which was not like women no I mean no so it was clear it was clear obvious I hate to be cliche and be like oh haters are gonna hate I don't know how you're processing this but it seems like just in these past couple of weeks that the book has been out that there's been a different kind of criticism yeah levied at you and how are you processing that do you just like stay off Twitter her I mean I mean you you're very clear about it I didn't seek the crown I don't wear the crown I view you promote other black writers but it's like well doesn't talk about Native Americans he doesn't talk about this his talk about that how are you me do you feel a difference this time I don't because I think it was a lot for between the world and me and I think actually the amount it might be more now you right it might it could be more I think it was a lot for first white president when we obviously was a lot but between the world let me prepared me I'm significantly less surprised you know I have my moments I get pissed off but you can't fight me you understand I'm saying like you're not gonna go do the reporting I'm gonna do you're not gonna go do the research I'm gonna do you know you're not gonna spend the amount of time what about from academics who have a different standard I mean they're not journalist you're not I get a lot less of that I get a lot mostly what I get is quick one offs but how you know like I what I mean by that is like there's something about when you actually go do the reporting when you actually go do the research you feel so much better arm that somebody that's just giving a reaction they don't like have the guns really you know we're in this moment right now I think we're you know their number African American journalist you know like yourself like Jelani at The New Yorker like Nicole Hannah Jones and these are people who are not just like black writers like sort of Sam black things but like they know they have access to a kind of knowledge that let's just say other people do not have and aren't really interested in I actually think that shines through I think that's clear I think people understand on some level even if they can't articulate it the difference between I read this and I did not like it so I took a day and wrote 800 words and somebody that sat with a problem you know and let it steep so I don't think I don't know man I'm going to the next piece you know I mean I'm going to the next thing two people to complain about so I just saw I I don't know I don't know I think um I think having like I'm struggling to get this across you just a so much better prepared for the world like that stuff people give reactions and it's ephemeral you know the critiques of between what people read between the world to me and the critiques of it I think mostly you have you know there's still there but you know people still book so if I do my job right that's what should happen you know what I mean if people kick critique and that's fine that's okay that's that's okay you know but what I'm trying to do is create the thing that's gonna sit there you know like I think about Baldwin right nobody members what Eldridge Cleaver said above all no one only I know that cuz I had that you know going in I mean you obviously have some some idea to but only if you're like really trying to figure it out nobody remembers like nobody cites that nobody says yes that was really you know I mean but I'm not saying I might that love what I'm saying that you know but the process of trying to get to that level I think it's much more substantial I'm sort of sitting back and you know taking your shots you

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Length: 34min 42sec (2082 seconds)

Published: Thu Oct 19 2017