We Were Eight Years in Power: An American Tragedy

good evening everyone Thank You Cheryl for hosting this event tonight in this extraordinary museum on behalf of everyone at the Atlantic I add my welcome to all of you tonight thank you for being here I'd like to say just a few words about our speakers Tallahassee's new book as you heard is a compilation of stories he wrote for the Atlantic over an eight-year period with new essays proceeding and framing each of the stories I met Donna Hosny when I arrived at the Atlantic as the editor of digital after he had published just the first of these pieces this was back in 2009 and that story was on Bill Cosby in those days tallahassee was not yet a best-selling author not a National Magazine Award winner not a regular guest on late-night comedy shows and not as the MacArthur Foundation would dub him a genius at least not with a capital G all that came later he was as you learn in the first essay applying for unemployment benefits just a year earlier he'd been thinking he might leave writing and maybe drive a cab or ten bar in order to provide for his family and he made his mark in those days not simply or even principally as a writer of long magazine stories and essays Khanna has he was to use an archaic term a blogger and he was among the best before long he was taking time away from the blog to work on these deeply reported stories and essays that make up the book throughout all of this on the blog in the magazine stories in his books kind of houses relied on his own curiosity to drive his work whether he's researching the civil war or questioning criminal justice practices or exploring the role of gaming hip hop and football in our culture Tallahassee's succeeded by following his reporting instincts he'd be the first to tell you he'd rather ask questions than answer them 60 years ago on the hundredth anniversary of the Atlantic editor Edward weeks said the purpose of the Atlantic was to make thinking people think harder nobody does that better than Tallahassee so he's here tonight yes answering questions in conversation with someone you all know Michele Norris an award-winning newspaper and broadcast journalist Michele was for a decade the host of NPR's all things considered more recently she's the creator of the brilliant race card project which explores the role of race through six word submissions from tens of thousands of Americans I think you all have cards in your packets so you can contribute as well Michele is also a great friend to the Atlantic and so it's my pleasure to welcome Michele Norris and Tallahassee coats the introduction it's really wonderful to be here in this sacred space and if you've visited this museum you see mr. t on the walls here in the museum he has come to be that for this generation helping us understand the moment that we're living in and also helping us look back at history with courage because when you read these essays you're writing about America right now but very much as a history lesson as well so I just want a simple question you're just dropped a big book and you're here okay let's try again I want to begin with there's a simple question you've just dropped a big book you've been on tour how are you doing right now can you guys you guys can hear me now right okay all right that's good I love tour who died and left or where's Greg right Greg I love to it all I heard I do it being on tour I am is it's the funniest thing and I go through this and in the book I you know this is like my I think my time in my 21st year since I started as a professional writer and for most of that year my most of that time for most of those years the problem was getting someone to pay attention to you I spent you know just a good bit of you know my career you know just writing you know for the sheer joy and the sheer curiosity and most writers in order to continue they prepare themselves not to be heard and then really with the publication of I guess the case for reparations in between the world to me I've seen it every year since then trying to prepare for the fact of being heard I know it's rich people's problems but it's problems nonetheless a good problem I would not go back I would not let's be clear I would not go back but nonetheless it's a transition I'm doing well I'm doing well I'm certainly going better than where I was you know where this book starts off so I'm frankly just happy you know pleased that you know all you guys in this audience you know taking an interest in the book and taking an interest in the work and I and I here to talk about it so when you were writing these essays for this is a compilation of essays during the eight years that Barack Obama lived just a few blocks away and there are tik-tok of essays some of them deal directly with the Obama presidency in the political moment some as Bob mentioned we're about Bill Cosby there's you know there's other there's a essays that don't deal directly with the presidency but at some point when you were writing these pieces did you get the sense that you were writing that you were actually putting together the bricks that would build a house that would become a book really really late I think after the case reparations came out it was it was then suggested to me that you might want to like compile you know I like this body of work into something I didn't really know what that was and even when I am signed a contract for the book with my publisher the idea was just like I didn't know what was gonna be in it the idea was to kampala you know just you know some stuff I had written for the Atlantic and my thinking I started to do that and I started to go through that you know I had a you know a young lady who works for the publisher she printed out all of it like the blogging I'd done everything Bob was like from beginning to end and boxes were delivered to my house it's fine you know read on your blog or paper but I went through it and it became clear that to me that I thought there might be something more there than just compiling a bunch of essays together so with that in mind we begin to pick specific essays that you know we thought could actually tell a story I mean it was a memoir that we tried to drive through the whole thing how did you choose the 8 how did you land on these finally I guess in my mind or not even in my mind like in my heart emotionally I felt like there were connections like every one of those that I picked represents like a really important moment you know that there's the second one you know about our first lady Michelle Obama which I don't think is one of the better essays in the book I think the right erican girl American girl yeah I think the writing gets a lot better as it goes across and I wanted you guys I get two ways writers do this one way they do it is to show off and say here's how great I am but I've always been more interested in process you know so I think the actual stories tell a story you know I mean like I think you can see like the thinking getting better the writing getting better I think you know all of that coming together but at the same time that second essay I had like memories attached to like really strong memories I had this memory of you know me just beginning to work with the Atlantic and which would prove to be like a momentous thing in my life but still feeling like I don't know if this is gonna work I had this memory of being as I write about at the Aspen ideas festival my wife is funny now what funny at the time my wife's employer calling her and telling her her job was going while we're in the middle of idyllic Aspen and I remember dad you know what I mean and I was at the same place where I got the assignment to write that piece and I remember being so excited about you know the fact I had another assignment for the Atlantic and I remembered going out to Stanford and I said getting the check for the fellowship and Wachovia where we had the account at the time they checked being drawn Wachovia and depositing the check and you know the amount of money being larger than anything that had ever been in our bank account ever or we can ever dream about being an hour baby that's a good feeling yeah and how we went to the steak house right across the street and got silly drunk and ate everything like bring me everything you know I mean so in that sense it wasn't it wasn't even that you know I thought the essay was the strongest essay but a story behind it was just so you know important to me when you're writing as a journalist you're writing the first draft of history I mean we don't often think of it that way but we really are and years from now people will look to these stories to help understand the moment that we're living in which is momentous for so many reasons not just because a black family lived in the white house but because we're turning a page demographically in the country because of technological changes and and and economic tumult and all kinds of things but when you were writing these you've now gone back and repackaged these in this tone which of the essays held up and which didn't because you were kind of writing yeah a lot of them did not hold up the Bill Cosby essay doesn't hold up particularly well the American girl essay as I mentioned does not hold up particularly well I think the next essay is the malcolm x one which is okay once i got to like the fourth out of eight it started to get better i think the civil war will holds up pretty well I think everything after that I stand behind I want you to understand something no this is not like a lack of confidence or me you know taking shots at myself I think like one of the you know reasons why I always shrink back from the title public intellectual or some of the other things that people put on me is you you where people really are looking is for like prophecy they want people who say things that are automatically write that name things about the world and for me the best thing about the process of journalism about reporting and writing is those essays don't have to hold up that was where I was at that point in time I have the right to grow I have the right to change I have the right to get better as the right to look back on it so I was right about this I was right about you know I was wrong about that and a lot of folks just want to be right they just want to be right you know what I mean it's like you know everything I said and the whole authority is in being right and I have always felt like my authority is in being honest you know I'll be straight with you I don't mean I'm gonna be right but I will be straight with you and things evolve and you you change you know what I mean and I don't and if you're not changing I like I don't know like you're missing out on half the fun of being a reporter you know what I mean you're not growing you're not you know there has to be some sort of selfish aspect of it that goes beyond just preaching to people and just telling people and watching them nod their heads as you say something you know it has to be something internal something you're learning some sort of you know joy that you're deriving for yourself in your private space do you feel in in some way because you write about the things that people have a hard time facing let alone talking about that people are often looking to you for something that they're looking to you for answers and does that feel like an opportunity or a burden to you yeah opportunity or burden well I don't enjoy it I'm you know I'm like two minds I my initial impulse my inside you know just my private tallahassee coats and pulse is will you ask him before like that's that's my initial why would you ask me you know I gave you what I knew and that was it you know what I mean my expectation is that's what I got you know what I mean I don't know because I you know I think like again like the journalistic perspective you the process is different than I think like an academic or even a pundit you when you go to do a story you have to become dumb again every time it's different because the person you're talking to always knows more than you about whatever you're talking about so you you know you were repeatedly going through this process of people going to school on you and I know the reader doesn't see that the reader sees the finish process and so to the reader you look like a expert you know but in your mind what you remember is everything that led up to that finished process that's who you are because that's the thing that you spend your majority the majority of your time with and so I often like I find it very difficult to you know change roles and then say well you know here I have answers as opposed to questions the flip side of that though the flip side of that is I think to some extent at least even as I'm as uncomfortable as I am saying this to some extent one should embrace the opportunity because if he wanted who genuinely want to know and the fact is if you spent you know large amounts of time researching reporting something you probably know something that they don't you know and so I am as you get I don't always like it but I'm trying to increasingly embrace the opportunity is there in some ways are you concerned other people look at your work as a proxy he talks about race so I don't have to he talks about these issues so I don't have even more somebody sounds like he thought about this so now I don't have to think about it well he said X Y Z Z I don't I don't have to you know it's like I don't outsource your critical thinking to me you know I mean like I'm not that's not that's not what I'm here for I'm not like anybody's Bible this is an again that's why the book is done the way it's done this is not a Bible it's not to be cited from and you know what Tallahassee thought this so therefore I maybe if you find something that speaks to you I'm not speaking out against that but I think there's a I am one of the things that happened that made me realize that things had changed quite a bit was in the 2016 primary I went on a show to talk about something I want to democracy now to talk about something and the channel is being a really good journalist actually who I was voting for I answered that question directly and it be turned into an endorsement like you're trying it so this is who I should vote for it I'm like no were you listening to me for man you should have said like I went through my process and I think this is like the best decision you know as far as I know but you know you may know something else I'm not in authority here you know what I mean I'm not you know a wise man you know with the long gray beard standing on high saying you know go in this direction this is just what I what I think and so I want I hope people read and I you know how they derive inspiration I hope they derive insight but I really fear the notion of the conversation ending with me it should be an invitation to go have other conversations the beginning point yet so you don't want people to outsource your critical thinking to you but let's dig into some of that critical thinking in the first in the first essay you talk about the notion of good Negro government and it's interesting because there there's a there's a comment that's made by believers from Georgia Howell Cobb and there's a statement that is deep because it talks about the moment but it also talks very much about this moment that we're living in and he says excuse me he says the day you make a soldier of them is the beginning of the end of our revolution the day you make a soldier of them is the beginning of the end of our revolution there's a conundrum of that and I want you to put that in context for the time in which that statement was mostly buried question and then what it means in relation to the election of Barack Obama the notion of a black family moving into the white house in this America he sells a great journalist I just want to understand I was joking she came in she said Oh how's it going you know you've done you know sullies how it talks and I said they're starting to run together I have not gotten that question and it's a great opportunity to talk about something that's really I think important at least struck me in a particular way that that comment was made by how Cobb who was a Confederate and even an official in the Confederate government at the time and I believe it was made in eighteen early 1865 during the Civil War things are going really badly for the Confederacy and one of the reasons why they're going badly is because the Union has enlisted somewhere in the neighborhood of two hundred thousand African Americans to go fight for them and that turns what was thought to be a Confederate advantage that is the fact of having enslaved black people who could work at home and could do you know all of this drudgery keep the army fed actually into an advantage for the Union because those folks are now you know leaving plantations leaving Confederate lines and going to actually fight in the Union Army so it takes away from the Confederate Army and actually bolsters the Union Army one of the entire theories of enslavement held the black people weren't brave black people wouldn't fight and particularly black men all of this has caught up in oceans of masculinity it's a very gendered concept the idea black men couldn't be soldiers they couldn't fight they didn't possess the virtue you know to be daring and now these Confederate soldiers are fighting against actual black people who are you know proving that clearly they do so some of the Confederate officials and generals get the idea well why don't we get our own you know Negroes as they would say to fight for us is an insane idea but you know that was the idea yeah you get black people to fight right for them and this actually goes back and forth to the point that general you know Lee actually you know approves the idea and some of the Confederates of Viet Minh opposed to it one of them how Cobb and Cobb says if slaves could if slaves can be good soldiers then our whole theory of slavery is wrong and any leads into that that otherwise you know the moment you make souls that the whole revolution is off and it gets to something deeply problematic or you know schismatic I guess in the relationship between african-americans and the society on the one hand the society tells you assume these virtues follow these values be a certain way conduct yourself a certain way you know a suite of values that we might collectively call middle-class values but you often have found throughout history that is very is the very assumption of those values that actually threaten the larger population the most so if you study the history of the race riots for instance it's really amazing but very often the first place these folks go to burn down a middle-class communities they go to the business district right away that's the threat you know in the post bellum period of early reconstruction and entry Redemption first thing they burned down with the sites of improvement the Church in the schools you know and so it's almost as if those are the things the very idea of uplift are the things that are most threatening and I think you saw that during the eight years of the Obama administration I think on the one hand the president was in many ways like a kind of ambassador you know from black America to the larger country here you have you know this is tall attractive ivy-league train first black editor of the Harvard Law Review but it's Ivy league-educated you know beautiful wife two beautiful children dog named Bo I mean it looks like and brilliant right and brilliant it looks like a Christmas card an invitation from us to them you know this is the best we got here it is and they're like no now we don't believe you don't believe any of this you know an opposition party is like you know in fact half us majority also plurality of us depend on were you taking about we don't even believe you're America it leaves you know we don't believe you're a legitimate president and then when the president was forced to pull out the birth certificate you know it went to be well let me see your transcripts but some about this story is off and it harkens back to that that whole idea if the moment we accept you the moment your legitimate the moment you are a soldier but revolution is over our entire theory is officer you can see these kind of um echoes across you know the history of something that happened you know 150 years ago so when you were working on this book did you see the train coming before it arrived in the station did you see that we were entering the period that we are now in I should have I was too terrified you know what I saw there's a really a blog post that I wrote about 2010 and it was when I was really getting into the Civil War 2009-2010 I was still very excited about the prospect of a black presidency and I was feeling very enthusiastic and this I guess it was oh nine because this would have been before Henry Louis Gates was arrested and I was beginning you know get into the war and it was clear that like I began to see the full horror of the war I began to see the full horror of slavery and I you know blogging for every you know the audience and I said this is my great fear in looking at this is that maybe it demonstrated this moment that we're in this moment of optimism is actually a rest bite the rest of it and what see throughout like like the past is actually the norm that we might head back to this and that was a little simplistic but and I think that the vast is in this book practice the further we got along the more I could see the gravity of history the more I felt that the society at large was under estimating a birtherism for instance which I talk about all the time I mean people would like laugh at it and dismiss it it was frightening to me it was really really scary we seen as a sideshow you see the decisis I was something these crazy people believe it was suddenly was not seen as something that could launch a winning presidential campaign no one thought that but that turned out to be true I think to be a it's not the fault of the media - did I mean we're two journalists so we're having this conversation but I just think it's the fault of the American people you know I don't you know know it's funny cuz I actually had this conversation with with the president and his argument was you know it's the media there's a right wing echo chamber that tells people things that spits things out to people that you know I guess he would say reinforces their their worst beliefs I think that's true but I think that there is a disturbing percentage of people in this country that want to believe those things that need to believe those things listen if I pull out you know the birth certificate and you still believe then what's going on now it's not an information problem anymore something else is happening and so and we have to lean into that we do we don't really do I mean I know some people equivalent about I'm I said anyway I mean we do live in an approximation of a democracy and all I'm saying that is because you know the popular vote went one way and the presidency one another but we live we live in a republic let's say that we definitely live in a republic and so I think if you're gonna accept then you're gonna brag about that well some responsibility falls on on the people then in that case there was a period where you were obsessed with a civil war like every time to have a conversation with you was to learn about this new fact that you had discovered or this new battlefield and in fact when you wrote the previous book it was you were originally going to write about the Civil War and remember we were going back and forth no you should write the Federalist but no no you should write about Frederick Douglass and and you were planning to write about that will you return to that is that something do you feel the need to dip back into that I didn't I do talk about sort of history and the pluperfect and I think it's actually all through that through this book even if it's not you know even if there's only one specific essay dealing what I actually think it haunts but I think the impact and a way that a civil war is deeply deeply underestimated 700 somewhere in the neighborhood 700 800 thousand Americans died in the Civil War I'm only you know 778 because the casualty day these new counts on the casualty rate keeps changing that is more than all Americans who have died in all wars combined it Dwarfs World War two it Dwarfs World War one it Dwarfs Vietnam it obviously Dwarfs the American Revolution is it was a huge amount of people somewhere around it like 20% of all military aid southern white men died in the Civil War it was just complete and total carnage it was also the evaporation of the largest collection of wealth in the country period like by far like all other wells combined all banks all nation factories all shipyards put together were worth less than the four million enslaved Africans african-americans in this country that had to have a huge impact and it did have a huge impact there's a reason why even at this late date that you have a statue of robert e lee who led an army into Maryland Antietam it didn't let army into Pennsylvania in Gettysburg and on every trip led an army which kid free black people and drag them back into slavery that's the that should be like the first line when you hear robert e lee but people don't they don't say that there's a reason why I didn't like they people are still defending that statue he said what are you defending and and they say heretic heritage a white dog what specifically you know what was actually being fought for and you never get a straight answer I was looking at this um video today and I get every name in a school school used to be named robert e lee these young girls these young high school got an a up crying bawling about the prospect at their school being renamed from robert you i don't even know if they know what they're crying for but i know and i think a lot of black people notes you know and I said suspect somewhere deep you know in the back of their brains their parents know the weight that this thing exerts you know up until today is just tremendous and I don't think it gets enough credit I do think I'll return to it I do I'm not sure what form but I do think I'll return to when you um when you write journalists are often insecure overachievers its fact you talk a lot about that your confidence comes from the work that you do that you're prepared you throw yourself into that but in your very first book you also talk about your insecurities and then you return to that and your last book how do your insecurities inform your work how do you make them work for you um I think I'm pretty manic about chasing down every little angle in an argument I think I am aware that I'm making arguments that are not accepted within the mainstream if you make basic mainstream arguments you you have a right to sloppiness I mean you just do you know if you want to argue that black people are in the condition that they're in because say black on black violence you don't have to be particularly complicated there's no way put on you can say that in any op-ed page up one side down the other things that verify the preconceptions that are already present within the society a lot you can just be sloppy if you wanna make a case for reparations every I better be done it's everything better be crossed you you know you you need to be really really really tight if you're gonna make you know the argument that mass incarceration in some sort of way is the continuation of violence against african-american families that extends it back through slavery through Jim cut it there is some sort of line every better be dotted and every T better because I think I'm really manic about making sure the logic is you know wherever it should be I get a tremendous amount of assistance from the fact-check Department specifically at the Atlantic that you know you know goes back after make sure you know everything is in place as it should be but I just because I know the items are so far outside the mainstream it's really really important that I not get caught you know with some sort of you know really really big error so when journals you often know about the front end process the writing the reporting chasing a story and wrestling it to the ground what most people don't know about are the back end of the process I mean you see the back end perhaps in the comment stream which is like a rain of fists hailing down from the sky but I know because I know you that there are things that happen when you publish stories that people call you that policy people who make policy who shape policy Paul you you make them think about things in a different way or there one or two examples that you could share with us tonight I don't you know what yeah but I always wonder whether I'm actually making what I'm actually changing any minds I think what but if someone picks up the phone to call you you made them think yeah okay I will I will concede that probably the biggest example is you know being in conversation on the record off the record with the president I mean that that's the most about President Obama I should be specific here imagine a conversation between the two of you and that would be delicious I would like there's nothing to be said I mean that that's true that's really I mean Alan Lee know if I would go there really this is nothing I mean for me I'm talking about me specifically other reporters you know have different missions and a position or different way but for me there's really nothing to say that probably was the most the biggest you know and I think I had especially on the first few occasions a difficult time adjusting to the fact that I was actually there you know yeah I'm in my own head and so I see myself as I am in the process in my ratty you know hoodie you know me in my pajamas you know at home you know working on some big piece and you know if I'm truly in it having not shaved having not showered just sort of like here you know what I mean and not really caring about anything else and I'm not thinking about who's gonna read it too much you know so if you write something about the president something a little sharp about the president and if somebody from the president's office calls you and says why don't you come down here talk to the president about it that's different do you have shaved for that yeah yeah exactly but that's different and that was like a shock I was like what are you calling me for this wasn't me I'm saving the world like what are you talking to me you know and that was the feeling and I think also you know as you know those conversations evolved and I knew that I was saying things that were way beyond the capacity of a president to actually do the fact that you know I continue to be called that you know I continue to be invited into that conversation was um well I'm not supposed to say this well you know I'll be it was endearing that's what L said when you say say more about that when you say endearing um it's just not your expectation and maybe this is just having low expectations that politicians are gonna be particularly curious about things that are beyond the immediately doable and I think I you know my journalism works in the realm of things that are generally way way beyond the immediate doable I see my role as not to write as though you know I'm a Senate aide trying to get policy passed I'm supposed to say things that hopefully adjust the entire process than just the entire context a shape what you know is actually possible to pass and I don't know it was it was shocking to me you know that that that people who were in you know and not just the president he was in the president's office but they actually cared you know and actually you know read that sort of thing and so it was endearing that you know he was actually curious about those things that you know when I went to do you know the very last piece in them in a book he actually had you know a long and thoughtful conversation about reparations I don't think anybody ever expect anybody sit in White House to do that you know massages are very much appreciated in mind his curiosity that speaks to who he is he engages with people on a regular basis and not to diminish that but that that that's who he is he likes the to spar with people he's intellectually curious did you also hear from people in the prison industrial complex from teachers who were thinking about history in a different way from police officers who read your story and said you know may I maybe need to think about this a little bit differently I heard from teachers all the time I heard from people in the prisons all the time I will never forget being on vacation in Miami and I was with a friend and I was in a moment where I guess I was like upset I was thinking god I need to do something different I you know I have these thoughts sometimes I need to go do something different and we were you know just sitting there and a guy comes up and he you know recognized me and he you know you know began talking about some of the work he was a Latino dude and he was in a criminal justice program he was you know becoming a police officer and he talked about how he had read you know black the age of mass incarceration and we talked about that any walk away my buddy said well that's that's what you weren't reading it that's why you have to you know do this that that that's exactly your ideal reader because that's the sort of person that's gonna be on the front lines in an actual confrontation I got called up to I got invited up to West Point which was awesome this is absolutely absolutely incredible some of the sharpest kids you know you you you really ever want to be with and one of the few educational institutions I was in where diversity was real I think like their population might be like 15% african-american it's you know because of the admission process it's very very different you know a number of Asian students a number it was like what you would dream America to actually be it did it looked like the actual country you know and they were just so sharp you know and they were just so enquiring and so you know the ability to interact with you know folks you know who are future military officers about you know the country that they are protecting and they had a civil war memorial that had been built up that I saw that morning and it was as far as I was concerned not what it should be and they had a model you know that that you know could that's pledge they take which basically says a cadet will never still lie etc but lie is a huge part of it you know and if you witness a lie you're supposed to say something about it and I told him I said listen I know that that's a part of you know your basic pledge to each other but what about you know how do you apply that pledge to your broader institution you have a monument here that is not honest about the war how are you questioning that are you interrogating that are you thinking about I understand it's your job to go off and protect the country but are you thinking about the country that you're actually protecting and the story that that is telling and they were um it was not like a confrontation you know they were just really really curious and enquiring it was great you know I can't help when you you talk about your conversation with the cadets at West Point I can't help but think about the controversy that we're in mission right now over the / whether or not NFL players or other athletes should be allowed to take a knee without it being viewed as a gesture of disrespect to the American flag and the country as a whole yeah I mean I think it's particularly inside an NFL change in its rules and Jerry Jones saying that he will bench anybody who doesn't take any I think every single Dallas Cowboy has a responsibility taking me I think and I just I've been meaning to write this but I've been running around I really need to write it because um you you you listen this is at this point like this is actually a labor question there's a great 34-31 right now actually it's not that good I'm sorry it's not great its problem it's deeply problematic in fact but it it shaped some things I'm about to say but it's about the strike season in the late 80s and no one remembers what the strike was for the strike was for the rights of free agency the right to basically not have you know someone restrict you in terms of where you could work right to work right to compete you know as all workers should have and you know my politics don't allow for this it took this does the story angle that it told was from the perspective of as far as I'm concerned the scabs that they brought in and they made them into heroes which was really hard for me to watch you know because in fact what they were doing was they were serving ownership and they were actually destroying you know the ability to workers to actually you know organize and have some right to vend their labor and actually compete the strike was ultimately broken people paid a serious price for that eventually they got free agency the players today stand on the backs of that struggle they owe those folks to not align listen I mean I was ok before well you know maybe you feel like Colin Kaepernick does or maybe you don't you know em you ain't got ed near you know I would never tell somebody you know that they have to protest but this has now become a labor issue you know I have and maybe you know not rightfully but when I see a white billionaire telling a majority black boy if you do XY and Z I know he didn't say boy doesn't sound like to me you know listen I can't stay you gotta have some respect for everybody that struggled on your behalf and even if you ain't got respect for them you really should have some respect for the young people who are literally in college beating each other's brains out right now for the opportunity to just work a job I just saw I think you know every day and I do we ever you know NFL player like this should be a serious I don't know where the union is on this but that's obscene it's obscene if they let them do this you know it will be repercussions felt for years after because they ain't gonna stop here it is a story that will be told eventually probably in the halls of this building it has become that large it is that kind of moment but as we talk about this do we risk as a society forgetting why Colin Kaepernick took a knee in the first place we do we do I struggled up because I wonder if that is not the fate of all you know civil rights protests I mean certainly Martin Luther King has been completely co-opted you know you have people quoting Martin Luther King to bash Colin Kapernick you know but I think something that should not be forgotten that is not really getting much press attention is if you go to Colin Kaepernick's website this has not been co-opted you'll see and people forget this he made a pledge this is a you know a man has given up his livelihood right he made a pledge that he would give away a million dollars over the course of a year to organizations that he thought you know what we're doing good and progressive work in the community he has kept that pledge he's documented every organization he's given money to you go to the website you can see what the money is going to even within the organization it's a stunning amount of transparency and nobody's seen that nobody's paying any any attention to it that has not been you know co-opted it so I really admire how even as they pushed him out of the league he's been able to be a force in folks his life you know and actually you know continue to be an activist I'm not an editor but I think I just heard a column I want to talk about your influences you were a voracious reader not always but at one point you just filled your life your home your room your bag whenever you left the house with books who were your influencers whose work most influences the work that you produce now well I mean in fairness when I was a child I was a huge hip-hop fan and that had a huge influence on me I was you know my first influences were all really pop culture stuff you know a lot of comic books a lot of hip-hop as I got older I mean an obvious one is you know James Baldwin tremendous influence on me the novelist el Doctorow just I mean a huge huge influence on me Doctorow had an ability to conjure history and make it alive I don't know who he is read ragtime but it's just some fantastic oh my god someone does wondrous fantastic book f scott Fitzgerald had a huge influence on me that and I learned from him something I learned something you know from Baldwin that you could write a book that is relatively brief and it can just be tremendous it's probably my favorite novel a number of journalists today have a huge influence on me Elizabeth Kolbert who you know works over at the New Yorker who I think does a lot of what I try to do what I hope to do she's a much much better reporter but has this ability to write and turn the reporting into you know literature in a beautiful way I'm a huge language and sentence freak and so Katelyn Flanagan at the New York even though our politics don't I'm not in New York sorry Bob forgive me in my fantasy once wrote for The New Yorker at one point at the Atlantic and my magazine you know even though you know we have our disagreements about pop I just think she's a wonder it's just beautiful beautiful right I look to her a lot historians have a huge influence on me James McPherson with his great book battle cry freedom the historian Ivaldi a glimpse at Duke I could go on quite a lot what's the book you returned to time and time again that's B yeah gasps V why what do you look forward what do you get from it oh it's just sync it has uh um well a it has a kind of romance but not the kind of like romance that people think of as well it's not a happy lovey-dovey story but the imagery you know it has like a heart to it you know it has a lushness to it and then at the same time like it is ruthlessly efficient it I don't haven't read a book that short that pulls me in and invests me you know like right from go right from page one I'm there and you know I you know it was at one of those books much like you notify next time where I sat and I read that book in one day I just went and I tried to read it again about last time I read Gatsby was about two or three years ago and you know you read things when you're young and you're not sure that they will hold up and it's such a gratifying feeling to go back to something and say wow I was right like I read this when I was 19 and I thought it was brilliant and I wasn't stupid it wasn't you know at me it really is that good like it really really is that brilliant um Rita is then and Rita's now have so many better things to do besides read what you're writing and you just really have this obligation to write with the kind of intensity and efficiency even if I'm writing at 20,000 worth it better be a good 20,000 words you know you need to feel like you know you're taken and I just some I think that book is on incredible I also think like as a african-american like it's a weirdly black story you know because it's about this desire to I promise I'm I stopped talking about Gatsby I promise I'm almost done it's a story about a guy who is trying to I mean in many ways adhere to these ideas of good and equal got it he's trying to present himself as you know presentable as respectable to society in the effort to do that actually gets him killed you know in a long-term and so it's a very very relatable story I think for myself as an african-american when you went through the litany of people who have influenced you you you mentioned a few women but I didn't hear you mention african-american one yeah it was one I mentioned Arthur folia Glenn down at down at Duke who is big the folio brothers took this great book it's the only footnote I haven't and between the world and me and it's there for a reason it's a book called out of the house of bondage and it is about the brutality that was inflicted by white women on black women in the domestic spirit fear in the house people always think about how slaves as you know this sort of protected space you didn't have it as bad as feel slaves and she was one of the people that really resurrected this notion that slavery slavery you know and there is you know this notion that white women you know who and and really it's not white women it's about human beings because there's this notion that femininity makes you softer that makes you more forgiving that you won't be as harsh as men and she shows in brutal detail you know how these women would return to violence this is easily and sometimes more easily you know as their husbands so that that was just a tremendous book for me because they said there was no there is no protected space there is no softer slavery there's no better asleep it's all slavery it's all possession of your body it's a tremendous tremendous book the reason I asked about the influence of the black female intellectual is because in in literature in journalism and popular culture there is a considerable emotional intellectual energy trying to understand the interior lives of black men and that doesn't always feel like a two-way street do you like I wonder um do you get that from Toni Morrison's novels like do you feel like you get that and interior the interior exploration of african-american women do you feel like you get that from my novels I do I do yeah I think like II was wondering and going back I mean Sula the blue is done right of course most definitely and more recently with even home which is principally about a male character yeah it's about you know the woman that are all around him and god bless the child of course wasn't nothing you know I asked that question because you know one of the things that I think happened with um between the world we're not agree which was not always a two-way street I again like you're always in the process of actually you know doing the thing when you're writing it and when the book came out you like you have guns that I had no expectation that that book was gonna become what it what it would become I just wanted to get it done I was afraid it was gonna actually be a book you know I literally was you know scared that I couldn't actually do this thing and when it and this really takes us back to the beginning of our conversation because it's one of the reasons why I just I don't want any part of you know it's kind of prophetic ideal is prophetic to this like it became this sort of okay this is the book of our generation but how like I don't like know that any book can carry that you know and one of the huge things about it was okay you know you're exploring this perspective in this letter to your son it's a very masculine depiction of black life which it is but I wish like there were more books like it it can't carry the weight of an entire community you know it can only carry the weight it really can't even carry the weight of you know african-american men because I have you know a very very particular experience I can only you know speak you know from from my perspective and he's not been comfortable to have the expectation that you know you will speak from all perspectives within the community I you feel that that's laid on your shoulder all the time I have no doubt about it I see it all the time I see it all the time and I'm not mad about it because I don't think the Orange it is the people that I landed on my shoulders I think the origin of it is the fact that we have not had equal access to all things we have not had you know the ability to tell our stories you know in the variety and in the depth that you know other communities get to tell them I am lucky to have an african-american editor he's an african-american man let's say his name Chris Chris Jack's is a brilliant brilliant editor I don't know how many other people in publishing there are like him you probably could count them on one hand you know an editor is very much the gateway to advocate you know for your projects so I don't enjoy it but like I understand you know what why is there I have a very very particular experience I come out of the 1980s you know I come out of you know a period in a community where you know most of my friends did not have fathers I went to an HBCU which is a very specific thing and so they're gonna be themes that are really really striking and interesting to me they will not cover the entirety of the african-american experience I'm gonna take questions from the audience I have a few here but before we do can we turn to comic books for a moment yes you grew up reading loving comic books you're now writing the Black Panther series and for someone I think you just said that you love I hope every one of you go to your comic store every musty all the other clapping I don't know y'all are in that comic store every month buying that home so I expect everyone of you that are clapping to go to your comic book store thank you that's what I'm talking about right there and when you do you need to protect them with sheets come on but you talk about how you you you labor over sentences so that they have the right cadence so they sound like jazz and so they hit on the you know that there's a graceful dismount at the end of the paragraph but when you're writing comic books you know the boom the polish isn't it's just different so tell me about the process of cornpone you're still trying to do it though you know that actually isn't it's harder in Congress you have so much less space and you don't have a paragraph you have one two senses it's a lot more like like Poe tree and in that same sense you still have to think a lot about like I read those scripts out loud to myself even though they're not meant to be read out loud in that sort of way it you still has to hit the ear in a particular way and it is hard because you have so much less space you know it's it's a serious serious challenge but I love it I don't doing it is it challenging also because do the pictures always take the lead is it a dance is always taking the pictures always take the lead and like when you write a script the vas and I had to learn this the vast majority of your texts 80 90 percent is actually written to the artists it's not what the character actually says it's what's happening so it's a very very very different process you have to tap into an inner 11 year old to do this or yeah I do but that that isn't hard what's hard is seeing the world through images that's hard which is very very different than you have to see it as a journalist let's take some questions from the audience how worried should we be about the FBI's new con tell pro angle with the creation very wary of its new group that it's watching tracking the group that they've dubbed black identity extremists you should be scared yeah you should be deeply the building is called the j edgar hoover build it i mean i that's the name and i know like there's a you know a rhetoric around this what FBI says was battled days we don't do that it's called to Jericho Hoover Building man that was not long ago I mean you know I speak about this very very personally you know I did and I talked about this in the book the day I did my last interview with President Obama I had to film an episode of finding your roots and they had my dad's FBI file right there and in that file I won't come well there was some bad stuff in that file not that my dad had done but things that you know the FBI was trying do so I got a real direct contact to this it is not a game it's not fiction the FBI with the consent of President and then President Johnson dogged Martin Luther King until his dying day I was mildly the King is that Malcolm X's mind is a king this is you know peaceful nonviolent they dog come to the end man wrote him letters to try to get him to kill himself you know I mean just and so that's within the living memory that's not a civil war that's within there people alive you know my dad who actually experienced that who can testify that there's no reason why you should not be skeptical you you should be scared you should be really really scared so what is the avenue for pushing back against that and the timeline is interesting because this effort started in the previous administration Wow it started in 2016 it just gives worse people say I'm pessimistic you know I should say with that not within the previous administration but before the changeover and go yeah yeah yeah it's not like Obama's handed down don't water saying go do X Y is yeah I understand I understand FBI supposed to act independently but still I mean you just some I don't know you know III got ax last night to you know work on a particular story of great importance and I couldn't work on it because I had my own path one of the frustrations in addition again you know going back to this notion of like what a writer can do there are so many stories out there waiting for young journalists journalists period you know with the skills with the abilities to go attack and tackle somebody should be following that up right now the other thing you know you should I'm going back to Cohen Tahoe but you don't have to go back to coma and tell pearl in New York up until I believe 2013 2014 I can't remember the year we shut down but the NYPD had what it called a demographics unit wave ran around and it spied on moss it didn't make a single case like not a single lead came out of this effort that's a real thing that actually means ending New York Times it happened this is not Spira C theory you know you you should you should be afraid you know if I were you know the journalists right now who had the kind of time it wasn't chasing down you know my own story I would be on that I would be on that you know people should be watching interesting also that the FBI closely monitored people writers in the Renaissance movement no writers out of Harlem in other parts of the country and ironically some of the most detailed files on their lives are due to the FBI monitoring chronicled in a book called FBI's ayes just real quick as soon as Trump won all of my friends we immediately went to signal all of my checkers okay well I guess we're not doing this to instant messaging anymore that's done we have some a'my paranoid I don't care call me you know a spot on my dad so right we have wonderful questions let's go through some more your thoughts on Fannie Newham a quote on the Fannie Lou Hamer quote where they made their mistake is they made us walk behind them and we saw everything they did that's a new quote eyes I'm sorry again I'm not gonna be the profit I'm completely who sent in this question you're not gonna own it cuz it's a fabulous question yeah I can't I can't I'm sorry that's a fabulous I can't really give thoughts on it I'm sorry your thoughts on the the notion though that I'm not sure does that mean behind the men and then we saw everything I think she meant a loser that people of color had to walk behind people of color had white people yes and as a result saw with great clarity everything they did and therefore I would love to see that cool in context I'm sorry I can't I can't stand up here freestyle it I'm sorry a question about the New York Times op-ed by Thomas Williams I expected that we would get a question about this tonight so here it is what is your view of Williams point about the excessive focus on race in your work his quote is we will lose to Williams said we will all be doomed to stalk our separate paths if we continue to focus on this in the way that he says you're doing well I would love to focus on other things I really would I would love to I would love to I you know have a love for medieval history I really do I love reading about the 30 Years War it's incredible it's fascinating I would love to spend more time studying French I started learning to swim this year I wish I could do that five days a week [Applause] when I first became a writer I started off in poetry I wish I could go back to that and spend more time with poetry I would love to go back to school and study economics there are a host of things I would rather be doing and talking about this and I think every african-american most African Americans maybe not every and I can't speak for Thomas but I think most African Americans can identify you know with the notion of really not wanting to deal with this but just last Friday was it BuzzFeed published a story they showed how this you know allegedly branded alright was basically conspiring with white supremacists and neo-nazis to rebrand themselves to launder themselves and it had a Busbee was you know they had a BuzzFeed was an official in the White House you know on Saturday you know Richard Spencer and a banner white supremacist return to Charlottesville we have you know a situation where the owner of the Dallas Cowboys is telling folks that if they exercise their right which by the way was supposed to be a compromise it was a compromise people forget that Colin Kaepernick came up with that after talk - somebody till - a military veteran trying to find a more respectful way not even that you know will be tolerated we don't know when the next video is gonna come out of you know some police officer executing somebody what Thomas wants me to do is turn my back on my community it wants me to turn my back on the struggle he wants me to turn my back on the very thing they made it possible for me to be here talking you guys tonight now Thomas myself he has that option and frankly it's interesting because you look at where he don't actually exercise that option he writes about race all the time himself he just does it from a different perspective I don't have that option I just don't you know this is where I live this is where the war is this is my home this is my family this is what I do this is my community you know do you find it interesting I mean I run something called the race card project so I'm subject to this this criticism as well and you find it curious when people tell you to stop talking about race that they don't have to listen and I don't find it curious again from people who talk about race all the time themselves they don't want you to talk to stop talking about race they want you to talk about race from their perspective you know they want it from from their perspective and I'm not urging you to go and read anybody's work but it's a let's just say it's a very different perspective actually read several perspectives but it's also always good to read things from several perspectives and on that note a question HBO is still moving forward are you trying to say Confederate promise it's allergies so what HBO is still moving excuse me HBO is still moving forward with their plans to air the show Confederate the writer wants to know how people should protest if they should protest or otherwise rebel against the show and the network your thoughts on that I'm the wrong person to ask that you know I'm not really a activist I'm not in the mode of I don't think that shows should exist I think if I think it's sad that it exists I think it reflects say again you know what I was talking about a deep misapprehension of what the Civil War was this is not a show about the South winning the majority of people in the south if you include the enslaved black folks if you include the unionists if you include folks who had no say in the political process at all would not have been for secession it certainly is not about South Carolina winning most people in South Carolina were black they don't feel like they lost the Civil War that very perspective see is this about the white South amusing this story in which the white South wins I don't know what to tell people that are interested in seeing that story being given that that story has been told several times and it's not a new idea you know it's been told in fiction it's actually my total mockumentaries it's been told there people who would argue the white South won anyway that this is not in fact science fiction but you know I'm a writer so it's not really my perspective to you know say you know to go out in protest what my job is is to continue my fight to write the stories that I think should exist to tell the stories that I did I think so it exists if you know you feel like you know you want to organize a boycott you know etc you know I'm totally with that I think that's a great idea but it's not it's just it's not the position in which I said you know so it's hard for me to advise you know active what they should do when you were spending a lot of time studying the civil war at one point you had said to me that it would be interesting to actually go back and talk to a Confederate soldier to get inside their head not that I'm comparing people today with Confederate soldiers necessarily but do you have any desire repet is to go and speak to people who are caring tiki torches in Charlottesville or nah I think I know okay and maybe that's dangerous maybe that's wrong but there are eight there are a number of journalists doing that work number you know of journalists some of the good some of it not so good you know who are doing that work and I just I think I know I think I know what this is how does a black how does black America move beyond the democratic party to a legitimate independent third party not beholden to corporate interests this is another question from the audience I don't know I don't know I mean you're in a very very difficult position I mean you have a country that's organized you know around around a two-party system it would be different if we were living in a I'm losing all my words a parliamentary democracy where you know you have different parties that you know Lobby I wish we were you know living in that world where folks have to have representation there has not been a national you know - you know third party successful you know candidacy one that you know even you know really claim credit probably in 20 years and it hasn't been when I was actually successful since I don't know when I'm only struggling with that because I don't like you know early you know in the founders history I don't know if like you know say some of those nascent parties Whig party Democrat Republican Party would be considered third party success the point is you very much in a two-party system I guess if I were trying to do that I probably would start building at the local level I probably would not focus so much on the presidency I probably would try to begin because I think people underestimate the importance of local office you know just city council person your legislature so I I probably would start there but again you know I'm a writer I'm not a political strategist so the question presumed that the african-american community needs to move past the Democratic Party that was a presupposition there I just want to throw in a question about voting I know that you were your that was one of the things that you had wanted to write about didn't quite get to it in the way that you wanted to why is it so difficult to get african-americans to register to vote and to vote in large numbers yeah I think it's hard not just presidential election but an off-year election in local elections you just talked about the importance of local election right um well I just say it would be wrong I mean not to say this I can't you know it was just a local election in New York I didn't vote I didn't vote that was deeply deeply irresponsible but I didn't I think one of the things that happens is like I didn't you vote vote I didn't do the homework to find out like when the election was like I voted obviously you know and uh yeah I know I know I know I know I just didn't you know I didn't and um I don't know I don't have a good excuse I don't have a good excuse there a good excuse for not voting I mean I'm sorry I mean no there's plenty of reasons but there's no good excuse no there's no good excuse there plenty of reasons for why you know you can look at you know other societies and how but I don't want to do that you know what I mean I invoked you know I mean and so there's no good excuse for not voting so I probably shouldn't answer that question to be honest with you I'm not you know I'm not gonna stand in judgment anybody else we're gonna take that offline do you believe that journalists have a right to speak on their own political views we have two short questions before we close do you believe that journalists have a right to speak on their own political views this is a question that is speaking to Jamil Hill and hers and a current situation with ESPN her two-week suspension at the risk of losing their jobs speaking their political views of the risk of losing their jobs now different news organizations have codes of conduct standard sort of moral turpitude but this is a broader question about whether people should be able to yeah I think so I don't know the intricacies of obviously no I agree with Jamel said I don't know the intricacies of you know espn's code of conduct in terms of social media I think and this is just you know oh boy I think people need to remember because it works both ways that you know freedom of speech is freedom from censorship by the government it's not freedom for censorship from you know corporate I you know I work for the Atlantic I can't tweet everything I believe but you are an opinion journalist so you have more latitude yeah and you know what North should i by the way North shot now I can construct now I might have a belief I have the latitude to construct a piece around that belief but there are things that are appropriate for coffee you know in the morning with my wife there things that appropriate for me even to say to Bob that I should not even if I were working for the Atlantic I should not do that ultimately aren't good for me as a Jones I actually have some degree of concern about this like all right so I'm here so I'm gonna say it I think that there are a lot of things that journalists in general period say over Twitter they really should think about putting into their work I don't think they should stop saying it I think they should do their job you know I think they should you know that's a thought and it's really that important it has to be expressed in the world well but first but you sit with the kind of facts reporting accelerated really you know it should be there you know I don't want to criticize you know Jamel I think and I don't I definitely don't want to criticize her you know in light of which she was responding to you which i think is absurd uh I understand the impulse completely I support her I think she's beautiful I think she's brilliant beautiful mind I'm not you know making some sort of assessment here you know but I think I love her show you know what I mean I love what she does I love her her Mike do I think for myself when I get that impulse I ask myself why am I trying to say this why do I want to say this to one don't mean that I'm always perfect but why am I trying to tell the world this if it's such a valid opinion nobody ever want to argument on Twitter ever if it's such a valid opinion why not do the work you know to make that opinion something that somebody can sit with think about be haunted by disturbed by bothered by what why why do I have the need necessarily to tweet it out is that what you were less active on Twitter than you used to be yes exactly why I think when I had a lower profile it was much easier you know I you know but as my profile you know really started to rise it became clear that I I watch what I said I just did and again nobody you know I haven't had a conversation you know with anybody to be clear at the Atlantic about that nobody said to me you know your tweeting is really a problem that has not happened to me but I have watched other writers some of whom I agree with on Twitter and I just cover my mouth looking at him you know it's not even I disagree with him I just think you and I shared a friend that used to like send out emails step away from the keyboard yeah yeah I know seriously seriously um this is the last question and it's appropriate because it gives me a chance to hold up the book that you're all going to read the questioner wants to know can you talk about the art on the inside cover of the book and what inspired you to include it and if you have the book in your possession you can wonderful opportunity to open it to the inside page and maybe a little bit about this it's good because again this allows us to conclude our where we started once again these are reasons why I assume the person likes the heart this is one of the reasons why you should not position yourself as an expert on anything I am want that heart in my book at all oh this is horrible that's what I thought I mean obviously I was wrong I just want you know I'm not trying to insult the artist I don't know everything clearly but in fact originally it was presented the idea was for it to be to cover I was like no I don't want this cover that oh no this is not close to anything I'm trying to do Michelle Obama's head is too big I thought it'd look like Bill Cosby so what are we doing here man come on you know but my editor Chris really really loved that art they said okay Tom I see fine it's not the cover can we you know put it on the inside as as in papers and I was like really do we have to anything listen we don't have to if you don't want to I said okay you clearly are very taken by this let's go ahead and do it and people love it - I've had so many people talk to me about my my dad about the odd on the inside how it makes it you know how to end papers make it look like a finished product so I don't know I clearly did not know you know so it's a it's a dangerous thing to become you know - in love with your own opinions and your own voice you gotta watch yourself be careful what'd your dad say about it he loved it but what what particularly did he like about it oh I don't I don't actually remember but I know he loved he really loved the art he said I think he thought I could felt like it made it like a really finished thing you know he just healed he liked it a lot well I I agree with you you were wrong wouldn't be the first time it was right to include not even on this panel would it be first it's beautiful the book is powerful I hope you all dig into it tonight as soon as you get home Tallahassee thank you very much thank you thank you for having us thank you it is

Channel: AtlanticLIVE

Views: 34,323

Rating: 4.7387757 out of 5

Keywords: Ta-Nehisi Coates, Michele Norris, Bob Cohn, The Atlantic

Id: KKWgAy9JdvI

Length: 77min 16sec (4636 seconds)

Published: Thu Oct 12 2017