Ta-Nehisi Coates: Between the World and Me

good afternoon everyone so this is kind of surreal sitting here with you I should have worn my Howard University or to Hana hi-c and I have been friends for about 20 years and we worked on the hilltop Howard school newspaper together yes I worked for Natalie I was his editor at one point um you didn't start off wanting to be a journalist we all knew tallahassee was going to be special back when we were at Howard we knew he was going to be a famous writer he was amazing in his editorial writers that no we said we said that bit there's proof but you came to Howard wanting to be a historian it did in your father who runs black classic press told you that there was the power of the pin you should be a journalist how did you make that switch because you were a history major I was I mean but the path to actually becoming a historian is long and it's filled with a lot of schoolwork by time I got to Howard my path was pretty long and it was filled with many many bad attempts at schoolwork and so it was fairly clear to me that I probably could not succeed like I probably could not you know I just didn't think I could make it journalism meanwhile had a kind of immediacy you know one of the attracts us to me for journalism was um the basics of journalism actually pretty simple but they have to be practiced over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again to actually get good at them the problem with journalism is not that it's a particularly complicated you know thing to do it's just that it just takes a ton of practice to get it right and so my process is learning I've always been much better learning by doing as opposed to like sitting back and for long periods having to observe you know that that's always been a problem for me and journalism is you know you can't learn journalism I actually doing journalism and so the idea that I could actually you know go out and pursue information the idea that I could go out and pursue my curiosity and immediately like seeder did the fruits of that I mean I was just tremendously attractive even at a school newspaper you can do that I mean it you know in a way that like what history you you can't really do it in a set in the same sort of way you've had a whirlwind month touring all your accolades where the book has been received the genius grant where are you in this moment how have you been receiving the reception and the company criticisms well I am because I think there's some people here we they don't tell us their names but I think there's some people here from the MacArthur Foundation I have to make the correction they don't like to have it called the genius grant the MacArthur Fellowship I stand corrected I am NOT a genius you may address me as a genius however but that's not because of MacArthur you just can't associate it with MacArthur that's just you know cuz of me oh you know it's actually to be frank about it it's been stunning I mean III I'm still in the middle of it I don't really know how to react because for the vast majority of my adult life you know I started right when I was 20 years old so I for the fast me tell you I don't like I've done one thing there's not been much in the way of accolades or criticism most people just haven't cared and I think you know as a writer you have to make your peace with that you know I think as a writer as an artist journalist whatever you have to make your peace with like just loving what you do because you love it you know and to hell with the world says and it was pretty much the same process with this book you know me and my editor set out you know Chris Jackson to do a certain thing and you know we tried repeatedly to do it and when we felt like we he got reasonably close to what we wanted you know Chris handed the book over to the other additives and the reaction actually started there started with his part with the publishers with the people above Chris and then it just sort of mushroomed out and um I don't know how to explain what happened like I just I'm still stunned I wish somebody could explain it to me you know because one certainly does not set out to say I'm gonna write this book and then X Y & Z is going to happen that's a path to writing really bad books you know I mean you just try to write from the heart and what comes is what comes and so I'm I'm shocked I mean I you know this is not in my first book you know so I'm not quite sure what happened you know I'm gonna ask one quick question so we can get it out the way what does your son Samari think of the book but no one else has to ask right no one else has to ask anybody that well he liked the book I mean he read the book in various iterations and in various drafts and he liked it he read it before I changed it to be a letter format and I asked him you know his permission to go ahead and do that he had no problem me doing that so yeah he liked the book I think writers and non writers often have different views on why you're writing a book right and people have often asked you who are you writing the book for who's your audience what's in mine but when you're a writer you're just like I'm writing to get a story I know it's the same way I mean I am again I you know it did the catalyst just you know to be polite about this and say well no let's be blunt about it the sheer number of white people who have read this at this book I mean it's just sort of amazing you know again that's not that's not something I would I just I just wouldn't have predicted it you know it was not you know the kind of book that you're writing when you say white people really like hearing this that's not what between the world in he is so III don't I can't I can't account for it I can't really call it I mean it's not like it's a racist book it's not a rude book it's not a particularly mean book you know but it's a very very frank book and my perspective on books like this is that has always been and all my work has always been that there is a certain aspect you know of african-american life that is beautiful that is dense that is complicated that is layered and our you know if you are in the world I love you and our country deserves to be represented and what people do after that is totally up to them but that's my responsibility as a writer and to see people reacting to it it's just stunning I you know I wasn't put there for that who did you think the sweet spot was going to be who do you think was gonna be drawn to the book initially it's gonna be drawn in a book people worried agree with me and I thought that was about 30,000 people I thought that was about how many books I thought we could sell you know so um no I mean I I didn't even think um because I mean I you know my last book was a memoir and you know considerably less people read it beautiful struggle everyone yes yes yes which is for sale out there by the way you can be among the privileged few move those units right um so I mean he's like okay so but I was happy with that book I liked that book you're not I mean okay nobody read it cool I'll go write another book nobody read that's fine and I'm okay with that as long as I you don't feel a certain way about it and um you know I don't know I don't know abot can you talk a little bit about your writing process with this book and also how you came to the decision to focus on the black body right well like three things happened I had a history professor which one Eileen Boris to Java I had dr. Bohr yeah I heard dr. Berman is Labor scholar yeah yeah I heard dr. Boris for his history of women in America and this was I mean this was years it was like 95 and she kept saying this phrase which I thought was tremendously awkward at the time and she kept like when she would talk about women and she would talk about exploitation she would say women's bodies the usage of women's bodies I see woody talk about what you say women I didn't understand what she was actually saying and even I thought left the class I didn't understand what she was saying but years later I understood that the state machine is actually making was on how those who oppressed those who utilize those who exploit actually see were they just literally see them as a body and that's it you know not nothing else no sort of you know anything you know complicated or he manages a physical thing to be utilized and you know whatever the power says you know they want to be utilized and I thought that was just a tremendously stark you know way of presenting the case so that stuck with me um the second thing that happened was in 2000 as you know Natalie uh Prince Jones we went to school with was killed by a police officer mere yards from his fiancée's house and in you know just the most egregious kind of way and nothing came out of that there was no prosecution of the officer the officer was not dismissed officer was you know invited to go right back to work and that stuck in my craw for many years that burned in me for for a very very long time and then probably the most proximate thing to happen was I reread James Baldwin's to find next time about two or three years ago and it is such a beautiful beautiful beautiful book and if you are in this audience and you have never read James Baldwin's the fire next time you've already lost big-time big-time big-time you're talking about you know as far as I'm concerned the finest essays finest American essays of the 20th century just an incredible incredible incredible writer and the book is so short it might be 120 pages if I'm recalling right but you know every sentence is just hitting with impact and it's hitting about a subject that's really really important so you have a writer really at the height of his powers talking about the preeminent moral dilemma of his time when doing it in an expert expert you know sort of way it's you know talent you know perfectly matched with the challenge and it is a gorgeous gorgeous book that when I read it in fact I couldn't even like see like the structure like I couldn't even see how he did it it just looked like he was just up there freestyling or something like he just you know pour which of course he did not do but that's the illusion that that you get when somebody is really writing at a high level and I read that book and I called my agent and I called my editor and I had you know the same set of questions and the first question was how come no one writes like this anymore what what's wrong with the world why have people abandoned you know this you know form particularly its gravity the kind of thing you can read in a couple hours the kind of force that ball went wrote with the mixture of journalism history and memoir all in the same place because that's what that book is and poetry like they're just high you know sort of beauty of the language that you know strikes me as like the kind of tool that you know that one could use you know when one is discussing a great struggle and you know I asked them both you know I said you know how come no one writes like this today and can anybody you know do it and they both said well well we think you can and so I set out to try and obviously you know you're not going to get two Baldwin but that's okay that's fine the point of aiming for Baldwin is not to get to ball what you name is to stretch yourself you know it's to do better than you thought you could do you know to outdo your own expectations and you know after several drafts we I think we did do that I didn't expect to end up where I ended up I wanted to take you to write the book it was quick man you know um the other thing that was I had written a case for reparations and like I felt like that that book was I mean at that book Jesus so long it's almost a book but I felt like that article was like it was so like I felt abstract to me and I wanted something more direct so I finished the case for reparations I finished writing the case for reparations at the end of 2013 I probably had my first driver between the world and me by March April of 2014 and I think the book was finished I was really quick it was based up the drive traffic was finished probably by September October of 2000 realize it was that fast by September October 2014 and what moment did you make the connection between you know hearing dr. Boras talk about women's bodies and applying that to black bodies um probably long before it was in between the world and me because it's probably a my blogging somewhere I don't know where but I had already started to talk like that and much as much of between the world I mean it's really just the distillation of years of writing for the Atlantic I mean there really what it is what it is and so they're elements that are in that book in some places whole sentences that are in that book that are basically pulled you know from blogging I did at the side so I don't remember quite when but I thought that the other side of that formulation or that feminist formulation was that it um it's something very very visceral about that you know about the flash about the body you know and and not you know making it abstract by using these terms that that you know as far as I'm concerned is sensing you know so I wanted to bring white supremacy right here you know to make people understand it's a physical experience that black people carry you know that it physically injures you not in some you know inaccessible abstract way that it died it directly inches you let's talk a little bit about Chicago right I love Chicago um you write about it extensively in the case of reparations and Chicago is a character in between the world in me it is it is um well Chicago is fascinating for several reasons and I think I did well when I was at the Elaine I would make any excuse to come back so every story I was right I had to come to Chicago protect that was it that's not as not you know in fact you know a mistake people think of Harlem as like the capital of black America but it really is Chicago the kind of y'all can clap for yourselves go ahead no it's true mr. small is the cultural capital black America Chicago is the economic in a little catalytic oh hell yes Mike that's true that's true that's true and perhaps cultural to I mean I think has a claim on on the cultural aspect I said somebody lived in New York for 15 years you know I mean consider himself in New Yorker but it's clear if you want to get into it where you have to go it is not a mistake that you know Barack Obama who becomes the you know first black president came out of Chicago it's just not a mistake you know it's not a mistake that car moseley-braun you know comes out of Chicago there's a kind of infrastructure it's not I'm saying what the first african-american representative after reconstruction is a caprese Oscar the presume it comes out of Chicago and that's see like that's not that's not a mistake there's a certain history here and so on top of that you have a community also a long-term community of sociologists here who've done quite a bit of work some of it good some of it not so good on the city and so there's a wealth of data on Chicago and on the black neighborhoods in Chicago that is not necessarily always available and for instance for my live space I went to Detroit and trying to distill and you did some reporting that the choice I don't know if you found this to be true Bob but I found it much harder to get to the numbers of what that community was as opposed to sugar do you find that I think it's Detroit Detroit is a wonderful place but it's like bottomed out in so many ways all the issues that we're talking about that's a great point but black wealth and black poverty do coexist there in a way that I don't think it exists in in other right other places yeah yeah no I I think like you at that point about bottom dollars it's just so true but I just think like maybe discussing University of Chicago I feel like it's just not studied into the same degree you know that's written off I think Detroit maybe so maybe that's what not by and large maybe that's what it is maybe that's a huge part of but I mean I know like when I went to write about housing I mean finding you know what happened here was not difficult at all I mean it was it was stunningly it was so easy to find out what happened here that it made you wonder why people weren't doing anything it wasn't like it wasn't hidden I mean it just you know you know Arnold Hertz making the second arrow I mean folks knew that book he's a prominent sociologist you know Burroughs saddest book family but I mean all of this was you know like it was all right there it was all right that the history of redlining in this city how the projects came to be the project that's a part between the world to me while I talk about I'm the first time I came here to move a buddy of mine mutual friend of me and nights and into a grad program and we would drive it down the highway and they're not there anymore but um you know that was the first time I saw that long row of projects Robert and Robert Eila I think Oh what are y'all Robert Elliott that's all Robert is Robert Taylor in state 1 yeah yeah so that was the first time I saw that and it was horrific to me but at that point I was not at the level of consciousness to understand that those projects were actually planet-like and that that was tie to like segregation like that was actually planned it was not like a mistake it was not like black folks were pull and just kind of tripped into the projects like that was the plan you know what I'm saying like I mean that's like when you get that like it's like mind blowing you know I'm saying well you see like in auto Hirsch's but where he's talking about the University of Chicago 'no do like scrawls on a document literally no blacks like you know like it's not even like you know particularly hard to understand all the aldermen are refusing to build public housing in their neighbors because they don't want black folks in their neighborhood I'm like when you can see it in that way you begin to wonder why is this such a debate about racism in America hey what is this I don't I don't understand it like it's right there it's in the history books like you can actually see what happened and so I guess the other reason why I keep coming back to Chicago is it's a response to a certain political segment of this country and I don't think that this is you know unrelated to the fact that Chicago is the political capital black America but a certain sector that loves to look at you know the murder rate for instance in Chicago and then use that as a kind of you know a signaling to other people about you know what is wrong but you know the socio-economic statistics and Chicago can't be separated from the policy I mean if you do certain things there will be certain results and you can't look at those results and look stunned you know what I mean and so like in the case for reparations and you know specifically in the case reparations my job was to connect policy to results we expected you to make it about slavery yeah no no no no no no no no people have people very much alive a whole generation of people here in Chicago right now that deserve reparation and they're alive you know you don't have to go back to slavery you know you really you really don't I mean the policy is right now right now so um and that was it you know we you know we went over to the west side it's like you know people looking at well why is the west side why do you think to my side look like that you know you wanted it to look like that you know you're may endorse certain policies or aldermen you know you know all the way up to the federal government endorse certain policies you know um so that neighborhoods would look a certain way and the kind of oh my god I don't know what I have I just I just I have no tolerance for that all you know yeah I mean even for people who live here the violence becomes just the Oh this is how we talk about the issues without talking about right the issues no I think that's exactly right - I mean if you segregate a community and I think like it's very important that people understand what we mean we say segregate what we mean is that you fence off a group of people you systematically decide to allocate less resources to them you render them vulnerable in such a way so that predators and this is what I was talking about in the case for reparation West Lawndale if you pull out resources and let me make this very very specific but I'm not gonna assume everybody in here read the story the piece really was centered in North Lawndale and basically what happened in Northland is what happened in black communities around the country when we were building a middle class in the late 30s in the 40s and 50s in this country we decided to do it through homeownership we decided to offer you know many Americans in this country loans that were backed by by the federal government via through the FHA VA through the holc be taught through the GI Bill and it was one group of people that we decide to not offer those loans to and you know that group of people was black people and so what you found like in Chicago in places you know like the West Side and really really I mean strongly on the south side is black folks who actually had you know the money for a down payment but did not have the ability to secure loans in a way that other you know folks were able to secure loans now meanwhile these people are paying taxes to subsidize that program as building up the white middle-class but they're also being exempted from that program so that that can only be plundered that can only if I pay into a system and I don't get the results back but you give them to somebody else that is a clever scheme of plundering you know it is robbery without me putting the gun to your head but really the gun is to your head because the gun is would match the federal government it's this is no other way to describe that so that's one level that's one level but then comes a second level of blunder that you know you saw specifically in North Lawndale wherein after the government pulled out and would not give folks loans well it's not like you know the people just sit there other folks come in who offer much more shady loans you know and in the case of you know North Lawndale with this uh you know contract loan situation that bro Sarah accurately I documented in her book family properties everybody should read it all Chicago and should read it which you had was people coming in into a community that you know where the government is far as long as I had withdrawn the kind of protections that it gave to other communities and basically just plundering people offering them mortgages that you know clearly were not mortgages and onerous terms owners interest rate buying up houses for $3,000 one day and then selling them to black people for $15,000 you know the next day without even giving them the deed without even giving them the deed and then should they miss you know one one payment flowing them out of that house and then selling it to another black family flipping it over and over and over and that is the extraction of wealth out of a community and so that goes on for a number number of years and then you show up a few years later you say what the hell why is everything look like this well you plan for it to look like that I mean maybe I don't mean that like six white guys in a room conspiring a mountain I mean like policy that's passed in Congress you know by aldermen you know at the state level like that kind of planning and that's actually you know what happened so for people to sort of stand around and be shocked you know you know whatever violence is happening in Chicago whatever violence is happening in black community I just don't understand it what did you think was going to happen before I read between the world and me I heard a number of interviews and a lot of the inner people interviewing you were asking about your father and him hitting you corporal punishment right and I was like oh is that where he's focusing on the book and then I read it and that's not what the book is about you know you talk about how black parents felt fear for their children and sometimes that fear was from well I'm going to hit you with the belt rather than the police but did that surprise you being asked that over and over in some of the focus on you know this black parents beating their your black father was beating you yeah um no because they I kind of got that with the first book you know which had some of my dad's so I didn't surprise me I think it's a testament to two things I think it's the it's a testament to segregation on one level because there's just so much distance between white and black lives in this country but I also think that aside listen white people be dead kids we know it because we have surveys that show I mean that's just it's just I mean I black people do it a little more but so do white Southerners they do it a little bit more too you know so I think part of it is maybe practices that we are ashamed of as a country and when black people do then we have no problem gawking and sort of waving our finger at them even though we know that you know in our households we see some of the same things so it's kind of like a Vantage thing that that happens that allows people people to feel morally superior but I don't really have a problem you know with that I don't really think too much I don't spend too much time to think you know thinking about that my job is to be honest and my job is to you know contextualize you know the things that happen in the in a black community I you know have no problem you know talking about those things I'm not ashamed of my dad I'm not ashamed of a thing my dad did my dad has seven kids you put six of them through college I'm the only one who did not finish college so and I'm a genius so that's all right all right no we went in the air so you got no problem talking about that I you know I will and if people want me to explain it I'll explain it in a second you know the question that you have to ask yourself is what would you have done you know you you want to gawk at me you know it was wrong yeah what would you have done you know you're coming out of you know just some old bones writing kind of poverty out of Philadelphia as my dad was you are death and murder is not an abstraction to you your father was killed you have two brothers who were killed you are living in a neighborhood where the price of black children not listening to their parents is you know quite literally death like that is a thing that happens you know um and you are afraid you are deeply deeply deeply afraid you don't really trust the police there's not much reason for you to trust the police the police are not on your side as far as your concern um there's ample reason for you you know to think that way what are you going to do that what are you going to do and so folks who you know have certain resources in their lives and certainly protections in their lives and certain advantages in their lives can you know sit in judgment all day long that's fine you know I'm just keeping you know as well as my old friend you said I'm just keeping my side of the street clean you know they have to you know you know go and you know make their own accounts right you know but you know I know what happened over here you're very clear and not trying to be the spokesman for black people or that your story is the singular story of black America but sometimes it does seem like you're the only black person white people want to listen to or read it's mystified I think this is a book is so short it was before the book it is mine sixty pages I'm done about good I know everything I'm expert now what kind of pressures do you feel as a or do you feel as a writer a black writer or any kind of responsibility none no I mean I just I I don't think too much about that you know I you know whenever I talk I tell people this is not the story this is the story as distilled be one person's eyes when humans eyes pulling from a great many sources a number of sources a number of other you know writers artists musicians that that is what you get it and if you have any sort of sincere curiosity you know if you're true in your interests about one of the oldest problems to plague our country then you know I'm happy to be an entry entry point and entree but if you if you stop here you've lost you know if you read between the world to me if you read any of my articles and you just stop there you don't read any of the people cited you know in those articles you know you've lost you know and again not that that is a question about your own sincerity I feel some amount of um despair for other black writers I worry for other black right so I think deserve much more you know who I think deserve much much more attention and don't get it you know I do my best you know to promote that but I don't know III if I try to reflect the great nuance the great complexity the texture of african-american life the entirety of it and well I mean you just can't do it it's not possible it's not possible to do it and write in any sort of you know effective way I also didn't walk away from your book feeling that you didn't have hope you know good or that you were just too grim right I just thought it was it was honest but you are attacking white supremacy right do you think it's ever how do you think it can attempted to be dismantled in this country and what do white people need to do because all when we talk about race it's on the is focused on black people what black people need to do and we don't put focus that white gaze enough yeah well I think black people doing fine I think black people been doing fine for a long time so I have all the world of hope for black people I really do I mean it's it's in it and not you know my my hoodie I'm wearing right now you know it's in it in that Howard section which i think is a glorious and beautiful place and if you have not been I'm sorry for him it's a great send your kids it's great but that that section of the book is really an encapsulation of what like like the beauty and the variety of black life and no amount of socio-economic statistics can really capture the Wonder and wisdom that's there it is so much of it in black folks and I you know I wouldn't give it up for anything so I don't know about the like hope I mean I don't mean hope for black people I mean hope for o hope what occurred dismantling white supremacist manly white supremacy um well that's not really up to black people exactly so what what dude so which we do question is and I think that's what people mean do you have any hope for white you know my question was why do white I think that's what people may know when they asked hope they're like that's what they're really I'm not saying you know what do white people needed right what is the white in this Congress well here's here's what it is here's what it is um and this might sound hopeless what white people have to do is quite simple or you know in the parlance at a booklet what would people who believe themselves to be white with people with people who are no longer interested in being white have to do is they have to abandon their immediate interest their five-year interest their two-year inches their three-year interest for the interests of their children for the interests of their grandchildren or for their great-grandchildren effectively you know the destruction this this is the basic problem in American parlance we speak as though and this is something I try to get at in the book as though they are these two distinct group of peoples that are like mirror images or you know like a negative photo of each other and so there's black America and then there's white America black America is descended from Africa white America is descended from Europe we came into conflict in this place and if only we could hold hands and respect each other's differences everything would be okay but in fact it's actually way more complicated than that black identity is exists on two levels okay there is the racial level of black identity and that is the thing you check on your census box okay and then there's the racial there's a racial white identity thing white people check on that census box those two categories are all about power that's all it is you know the notion of a black race has no meaning outside of oppression that's all it is I mean if you think about like how we you know organize our socio-economic statistics when we're talking about race we are almost always talking about power and even if we're not the very origin of those terms comes out of power they come out of enslavement like how we define black people in this country is deeply tied to the desire of slaveholders years ago to be able to enslave as many people as they possibly could that's what the one-drop rule is that's that's actually what it what it is and it was formulated it was calculated as a policy that was actually made and so definitions of race cannot be separated from power now here's the problem in addition to a racial identity in addition to a racial identity black people have an ethnic and cultural identity - they have you know a particular you know way of talking to each other the particular foods they like you know particular music that hits them a certain way how a university does this hoodie I'm wearing you know is very much not just about my racial identities about my ethnic identity if race went away tomorrow I would still love Howard University I would still feel a certain way I'm still have a certain feeling you know when we go to you know the homecoming game you know the fact that no one actually cares about the football game but it's or whose plan but cares about the band that is about our ethnic and cultural identity we have that so don't clap yet' here's the problem here's a problem white people as white people do not have ethnic and cultural identity it's just power it's just race now there are people the people's you know who check white on the census box who do have ethnic and cultural you know you have Jewish folks you have folks who you know may identify with being or this won't work I was gonna say southern but southern white also just gets you back to power that doesn't work but you know that people who came here you know who's Irish ancestry is very very important to them as a cultural identity you know they're people you know religion have all sorts of ways of defining themselves within whiteness you check white but have a separate ethnic culture but white itself is not one so if race goes away black people will still exist they'll still be a black identity white people will not that has to go away it just does because it's only power it's only power that's a huge huge problem because in order for us to you know deal with all of these socio-economic statistics in order to deal with this huge huge wealth gap folks have to be willing to give up their names and their names represent power so you have to give up like power and that um that is not to my knowledge happened in the history of civilizations without some sort of other cataclysmic event also happening twenty years from now twenty five fifty I don't know I mean what do you how do you think they were going to look back in this moment right now a race in America what do you think that you will be writing about well I don't know what I'll be writing about but I think people will look back at the incarceration situation in this country and say what the hell was these peoples problem I think like this and I know like on can you mention your your latest Atlantic yes I wrote a piece on the black family and mass incarceration and um that's fine you know I hope you guys go read it but they've been plenty of people who were talking about this before me just some rough numbers you know I'm sure you know most of you aware of but but but bear repeating in 19 runs around 1970 the incarceration rate in this country was about the same as the incarceration rate is in most you know Western European countries somewhere between 100 to 200 per hundred thousand people were incarcerated in this country at that point African Americans were still over-represented in the prison systems particularly in the north but the referee that the size of the system was not you know what it was and then over the next 40 or 50 years the the rate doubled tripled etc until by you know roughly around 2007 you had 750 people in jail per hundred thousand to give you an idea of how bad that is the next closest competitor is Russia and Russia isn't close it's like 450 it's not even in the same league China has way way more people than America does but America incarcerate more people now the answer you'll hear over and over again is that well that's because we had this rise in crime and I think that accounts for you know the incarceration in this country the trouble with that is virtually every other Western country also had a rise in crime Canada for instance had a rising crime very very similar you can see like the pattern across the board only America chose incarceration as a solution why did it do that well if you look at you know the history of this country are the fact of the matter is the criminalization of black people is part and parcel to white supremacy it's not just we don't like you it's that you being a criminal justifies every other horrible thing we do to you and this extends from slavery through Jim Crow through lynching food black lives matters today by the way just yesterday the FBI director James Comey said well the reason you're seeing a rise in violent crime and it's not clear that you're seeing one yet because only a few months of data but let's just say there was one the reason you're seeing a rise in violent crime is because there are people going around videotaping police officers because of body cams literally blaming it on democracy effectively I mean that is an argument for fascism I mean that that basically you know is you are not allowing the police to abuse people and if you would crime would go down I mean that is that is the upshot of that argument but it's a very familiar response to black protests to invoke crime you are responsible we can you know extend to you the privileges of democracy because if we do you guys will go out and commit a bunch of crimes and so I think you know 20 years from now and not that will be beyond because I don't think we would as a moment you know right now where you know there's this bipartisan effort to get us you know out of you know this this era of over incarceration I think it's greatly overhyped you know I think it's greatly greatly overripe we would have to basically find some way to decrease opera's in population by around eighty percent to get it back to nineteen seventy and here's the problem even if you got back to nineteen seventy you are still dealing with a system in which black folks are over incarcerated are more likely to be incarcerated than white people among the cities in the north around 1970 the ratio the incarceration ratio of black the right was about seven to one forty years later it was the same so even if you went back the ratio of black people in jail to white people would still be the same what that says is that incarceration is in fact not the problem that is actually a representative of something deeply deeply rooted in the bones of America itself and until we deal with that you know I don't see much change the people that are involved in the justice system racial attitudes fifty to seventy-five years behind the rest of society no no I think they're well caught up with society actually I think they're I think that I think what we have in America is a democratic problem there is you know one theory that holds that you know the problem in this country is that you know if you know a few people have captured our policy but that is not the history of white supremacy unfortunately in this country the history of white supremacy is of democracy itself by which I mean a critical mass of people who define themselves as white in this country identifying their whiteness as an interest and passing policies against black people the housing segregation in this country particularly in Chicago let's just talk about Chicago was alderman representing you know the stated interests of the people that lived in their communities it wasn't voicing on them the criminal justice policy is the same way the belief in the criminality of black people is deeply rooted in this country I don't think the people doing the policy are behind in some ways they're probably often ahead you know why do we see prosecutors you know always you know running to the right always with this convict convict mentality because they know it's somebody else you know can might get you know further out on them on this and that they could be voted out of office it's a that it's a democratic problem you know it's not a problem of folks you know just taking over and saying you know how it's going to be how without the evidence without photos of redlining and images that say no blacks you know how do you shine a light on institutionalized racism white supremacy that's happening today when it may not be in the documents yeah and do you intend to write about that next and where do you find that evidence yeah yeah no I think that's very very important here's what I'll say the case for reparations the last section of the case for reparations picks up with Wells Fargo Wells Fargo came to cities like Baltimore like Chicago like New York in the early 2000s when housing was booming and what you will find is that what and this is like like today this is right now what Wells Fargo's did was they you know random numbers on black families they ran the numbers on white families and even when across the board black families and white families were equal you know in terms of credit risk they gave subprime loans to black people more so I mean you talk about data they when they when I when a suit was when when the folks filed suit make subpoenaed their records they found them calling the loans ghetto loans calling black people mud people this was the extraction of wealth I mean they weren't just giving them subprime loans because they hate it you know you can actually take more out of a group you know of people and see this is connected to the past right because what you have is the community that starved for homeownership home ownership the black community is a particular thing because we didn't have it for so long it was hard if the harder for us to get the science that emblem of America so when you have a people who are excuse my term thirsty you know for something like that you can get many things you're given a just more gullible for it because they haven't had it you know for so long and so you know that's just you know a wine case in terms of housing and see the scary thing about that is and I can't prove this but I'm pretty sure it's true I think the Wells Fargo thing actually does prove it if you have certain historic inequities across the board right that is an opportunity that by the math of capitalism someone will swoop in and try to exploit someone else it just just well it's an opportunity waiting to happen you know I say gap in the market and that really is you know what happened so if we continue to do nothing you know Wells Fargo is just the latest but as far as I'm certain this will keep happening and I suspect like I don't know enough right I haven't you know gone back to housing since that I'll go back it's probably happening right now I mean what would it be I didn't shout out to be easy in this moment right go ahead last week we did a fair housing studies one exclusionary sub suburban laws that keep all multifamily low affordable housing developers in Chicago who pay a fee rather than a bill build affordable housing and opportunity areas like downtown West Loop urban north and then it's illegal in Chicago to post an ad saying we don't take section 8 yet that happens on a regular basis so there's example after example this is the hurry happen there's no import and all these things are I mean some of its illegal some of it is skirting the law with the suburbs that say well we just only want McMansions here we're not going to have other types of housing but the we know this information but policy doesn't follow behind it I was sitting with Alec Scott Lewis like actually when I was working for the case for everything he was talking about when they took down the projects how they didn't take any data on race in terms of where people were going you know what I mean historian tha spent six hundred thousand dollars trying to find missing people that they didn't keep yeah that's that's that's scandalous Isis commie they don't even know what happens to these folks and so I I don't have that sort of detail right now but the math of it says that it must be you know it has to be I mean you have the detail but I mean I that can't be shocking it has to continue you know it just it just doesn less there's some sort of aggressive action to stop it um you um you perform two acts of pop culture magic you you convinced a lot of white people to look at reparations seriously which they hadn't done was considered a fringe kind of thing and you put it into the mainstream which was amazing and then the other thing is you with your book you forced white people to read about how white plunder really is is the the cause of our racial problems what I'm asking though is do you think that as you point out a lot of the white politicians are now beginning to understand the futility of our mass incarceration epidemic could that same kind of intelligence dawn on the leaders of this country to understand the need for reparations in much the same way that we all suffer if we continue to plunder a whole group of people yeah no I think I said that's a great question it is well first of all let me just say something about you know that the the case of reparations was built on literally centuries of argument by african-american activists and scholars and some white scholars also for reparations it just the math was like the much of 60% of s Toni was right there you know and I came to Chicago reported out and put something to it but much of the math that was it was already done the case had already been made and as far as I was concerned you know it's pretty you know irrefutable and I think one of the reasons why I got so much attention was because it was published in the Atlantic but much of the logic of it was not particularly new I think the Atlantic has a certain sort of cultural cachet and then you know folks feel like they have to pay attention no disrespect at all to you know any other publication but I think if it hadn't have been there it would have landed a little differently I just have to acknowledge that I have had conversations with people who are in not the highest levels of government but in high levels in the federal government who believed a case they just say they said they believe it is it's patently true it's hard to refute on its logic I mean it just is and I don't mean the logic I wrote but I mean it like it is demonstrable that you know for the vast majority of American history arguably up until this moment right now we pass policies that extract it wealth out of black communities I mean we just did we just did and we try to look away from that I mean the biggest example for this for me is like people don't understand it that Jim Crow and segregation was in fact plunder they think it's you just don't sit next to white people on the bus and that's the extent of it but there's a reason why they don't want you sitting next to white people it's because if I can isolate to the better to take from you that's exactly what it was I mean you know if you're living as you know mr. cly Ross you know life you know my story in in Mississippi and your family is paying taxes and those taxes you know are used to you know upkeep a public university system that you cannot attend what that that's plunder that's blender if you're using those resources to upkeep a public school system public schools public libraries that I can't use that is plunder you are taking from me and using it to build for somebody else that was the policy I mean forget forget 250 years of slavery at me for 100 years after that with violence on top of that by the way that was the policy if you are depriving somebody of the right to vote you're not just depriving them of the right to participate in you know some sort of hallowed American ritual you're depriving them of the right to have some sort of say over their tax dollars plunder that's what it was and that was what the policy of this country was and so that the notion that you could do that for some 350 years extending deep into the colonial period of this country stop doing it sorta sorta and then expect that everything will be okay is frankly ridiculous it is it's like it is beating someone into within inch of their life leaving them on the concrete and say now we're even we're okay because I stopped being and that is what I was civilized a lot basically is said we outlawed certain practices but there was no sort of you know remediation know sort of reparation for the damage that had been done I saw you know like I was telling people back to Ani Duncan today he was talking about he's rejected the notion of testing he said okay we kind of overdid it on the testing maybe we overdid it not I appreciate him doing that you know everybody it's not normal for people to admit when they're wrong right I mean so I appreciate him you know doing that but see the flip side of that is that there were there were kids who went to school during that period you know I was talking to my wife about this and see we had options to deal with our son and we was you know when I they appointed Cathy black to head you know New York schools we said oh hell no and didn't want us we had the option of not dealing with that but there are a lot of kids you know a number of them black and brown who were raised during this regime who were damaged by what do we do about that what do you do about that you just gonna say sorry my bad my bad you know now go make it in the world I mean that that's tough that's tough so as far as I'm certain that the mathematic case is hard to refute it's just a matter whether we gonna do anything about it we've had a african-american president and an african-american Attorney General for six and a half years has that helped at all in any of the issues that you've raised well I think I don't know if it's helpful in the issues I think that it is a testament to the fact that you know we've had some progress in this country where we are right now as a country is um particular individuals particularly african-american individuals you know who are willing to work hard who are of talent and more than anything else who get lucky are able to rise to particularly high levels now society that was not true 50 years ago but I mean I just I mean what do we say about that right like you know France had Leon bloomers as prime minister at a Jewish prime minister did I mean there was no anti-semitism in France anymore I mean no one would say that no one would make that argument certainly it was you know some amount of progress but you know you know you have you know women you know who have been heads of states and other countries is there no sexism in Germany now because Angela Merkel is the Prime Minister I mean is that a case that you know we would make it mean something you know it means that a certain you know individual is you know particularly industrious you know who's you know willing to not just out work you know people like them but other people who you know can achieve certain things but frankly you know and this is you know not my line Eliza but it's something that you know author actually said you know black folks say all the time we will know when we have achieved we will know that we've had it when black people had a right to be mediocre that's when we have Obama is not the young Obama is not the standard you know Eric Holder is not the standard exceptional black people are not the standard mediocre black people just like mediocre white people that's the standard that's the standard that's when you have equality thank you so much for your questions

Channel: Chicago Humanities Festival

Views: 99,523

Rating: 4.7996545 out of 5

Keywords: chicago humanities festival, chf, humanities, chicago, Ta-Nehisi Coates (Author), Between The World And Me

Id: yUOPM8il7bQ

Length: 52min 42sec (3162 seconds)

Published: Thu Oct 29 2015