Former CIA Officer Will Teach You How to Spot a Lie l Digiday

good morning I recognize what we're gonna talk about this morning is a little bit different than what you guys usually think about as you're doing your daily jobs and things like that but you know Lizzie and Shireen both mentioned a little a minute ago that everybody lies right I mean you all probably been lied to in the past maybe even told a lie or two in the past do I have anybody in the room is gonna tell me they never lie no one okay that's good at least I don't see anyone with the lights on would it surprise you if I told you actually let's do a little experiment first I want you to find someone in the room and I want you to point at them I know it's rude but I want you to point at them and as you're pointing I'm going to point at you who are you Aaron I'm gonna point at Aaron so find someone in the room point at them and then look around to see who is staring at you who's pointing at you okay so then I'm gonna hold your hand up and with this being five and this being zero I want you to end up like everybody to do this for just a moment with this being this big zero this being five tell me how many times you think that person has lied in the last 24 hours okay now look around the room and just just look around the room and see what people are doing and saying okay look around the room okay you put your hands down you can put your hands down let me start by saying you guys are really really polite group because I saw a lot of these I saw a couple of these few of these I didn't have any flashers though normally I do this trainee I got people with both hands flashing they take their shoes off that they could talk about how many times they think people had lied all right would it surprise you if I told you that a person lies an average of ten times a day okay now I know some of you sitting there going no no that's not true I don't like 10 times a day but think about it for just a moment when I talk about lying 10 times a day I'm talking about things like somebody asking how you're doing and you have a splitting headache and you say fine because you don't want to get into it all right so when I talk about lies I'm talking about a complete range from those little white lies that we tell either not to hurt someone's feelings or to keep a conversation from going in a direction we don't want it to go in to those really big bold-faced lies where I didn't do it okay why is this important to you guys why is knowing what a lie looks like to you is important to you whether you're hiring employees you know whether you got a screening process going whether you have an investigation because someone's been stealing from your company and you need to put yourself in an investigative mindset now any of those things that you touch as executives and retail or folks that are involved in retail it's important if you're a buyer and you're going out looking to see if you're getting the best deal on the things that you're looking to buy do you want to know if that's persons telling you the truth or do you want to know if you have a little bit more wiggle room so the purpose of teaching you about lying today and I'm not going to tell you everything about it because we don't have all day but I'm going to touch on the things that are most important to you and I hope that you'll find that they do have something to do with what you guys do on a day to day basis okay if I forget to say this and I usually do I want to say it before I leave when you finish this 45 minutes with me you're gonna be dangerous you're gonna know just enough to be dangerous all right so don't take this home and use it on your significant others not gonna lead you where you want to go children however use it all the time on kids all right I have a 16 year old son if his lips are moving he's lying all right so just setting you up with that so let's get into this just a little bit about me I think they told you it's all over the place actually I am former CIA I still do a lot of work with them but the point is is it's in the CIA that I learned what it looks like when people are lying I have a master's in forensic psychology and education I spent over 20 years with the agency developed a screening program with inside the agency and we actually take this program this to spy the live program all over the world and teach people about lying all over the world so people say to me well Susan if you're teaching everybody what lying looks like can't they use that against you all right if I learn to lie if Aaron learns to lie and I'm interviewing her for a job and she's lying will I see it if she knows how to beat me the good thing is there's so many different things about lying that you can't hide them all so Aaron may be able to lie to me with a couple of sentences but sooner or later I'm gonna figure out she's lying and then I'm gonna go try to find out what the truth is okay so enough about me let's get into this the way I want to start this is I want to show you a brief video all right and I want you to tell me whether Jamie this young lady right here at the end of this video is lying to me or not all right so all and you came into the room today with some gut that tells you whether someone's being truthful or not right we all think we know what deception looks like we all think we know what truth looks like so with that gut that you guys have it tells you whether somebody's truthful or not I want you to judge Jamie we ready to go okay my first question for you TV is what involvement did you have in the companies recently just started bars run for County activities oh nine Oh these are under direct mr. Glenn to backdate any contracts no of course not prior to the recent audit that uncovered these accounting irregularities did you have any knowledge that mr. Glenn was back dating contracts no I mean in fact if I had knowledge about that then I would speak up and say something is there any reason that a forensic computer review would uncover any communication with mr. Glyn regarding this matter no of course I don't have any communication with him regarding this at all at any time the mr. Glenn ever reveal or discusses efforts to manipulate the company's accountings with you know if he had then I would have told someone fired him gotten something something would have happened if I knew anything Jimmy why should we believe that you're not I've always had a very good reputation with the company I have no enemies in the company you know when you know i I've always done my best and I believe that I have a very good reputation with that and people trust me and I I would never do something like that especially for something that I've worked so hard at what do you think should happen to the singing manager who directed this should learn to backdate this contract he should be fired and go to jail and there should be serious consequences would you be willing to certify in writing that you had nothing to do with these accounting irregularities yes of course I'll sign it right now okay so this was a situation where there's an investigation going on in a company because the accountant had been cooking the books and when we went in to do the investigation we asked him why he was cooking the books they were getting ready to go into a sell the company they were looking to raise the value of the company but he said he did it specifically because he was told to we asked him who told him and he didn't want to tell us so we investigated we interviewed a whole bunch of people Jamie being one of them now I heard a couple of people say she was lying right off the top right and maybe she was and maybe she wasn't but as that interview went on were there times when you caught yourself going no I think she's being truthful and other times when used to nap that's a lie right how do we know whether she's being truthful or not what are we looking for in there let me ask you this question even if Jamie was being truthful did she have a reason to be nervous absolutely right so how do we know whether her nervousness or whether her behavior is a result of nervousness or whether it's a result of not being truthful how do we know that that's what we want to learn right if you have somebody sitting in front of you for a job interview or you're you're talking to someone in a company all your employees in a company because there's been a major theft or there's even been a little theft do those folks have a reason to be nervous absolutely they want to make sure you're getting it right they want to make sure they're coming across in the way they they should come across so how do we know the difference let's take a look at a few things there are six keys to knowing whether someone's being truthful or not or where someone's being deceptive we're gonna look at all of these individually we've got analyzed versus speculate okay what do I mean by that can I look at anybody in this room and say they're there lying to me just by looking at them just by the way they're sitting all right manage your bias every single one of us in this room has a bias we may know what that bias is but we may not know all right just happens week it comes across people recognize it but we don't see it we want to recognize evasiveness what does that look like when someone's trying to evade telling me the truth or it may telling me a deception we want to be aware of aggression aggression is one of the major keys for people being deceptive we're all gonna also gonna look at convey versus convince what do I mean by convey versus convincing and finally we're gonna look at some of those nonverbal cues any of you folks who used to watch lie to me that's what you saw with a nonverbal that's what you saw with the nonverbal so we're gonna look at some of those alright so let's get started oops what the wrong way when I talk about analyze versus analysing versus speculation what I want to look at is how a person is reacting to things okay so I need I need to find somebody who's sitting like I want them to actually you see the gentleman in the back right there who's got his arms resting okay if he were crossing his arms right here like this okay how do we view this behavior how we always been told this behavior is closed standoffish and stuff like that right and a lot of people assume that closed behavior means that they're trying to trying to manipulate me alright they're trying to come across as being truthful alright I'm just gonna hold myself right here so that nobody knows that I'm lying well you know what maybe he's standing that way because he's cold maybe he's standing that way because it's comfortable for him alright that just may be a habit form I don't want to turn around and say look close posture equals deception because if I do that I'm getting myself in trouble so a lot of us look at global behavior all right we look at weather they shift all the time we look at weather weather they you know do some of the stuff that Jamie did when she scratched her nose all those sort of things we give way too much weight to global behavior we want to do away with that that is speculation I don't want to speculate why why that gentleman in the back is sitting there with his arm across like that alright what what I want to do in other words is I want to identify that the behaviors that I see in here are a direct result of my question so if I ask Aaron Aaron did you did you take the missing merchandise alright and and and she's sitting like that that's that's bad that would if I look at that as a global evaluation that's bad I don't want to give her that alright I want it I want to see the behaviors and hear the behaviors as a result of the question I ask and it'll make sense in a minute I want to identify the stimulus the stimulus in this case whether it's an investigation whether it's a screening interview whether you're talking to someone that you want to employ in your organization the stimulus is going to be the question that I ask all right during any interview during any communication people are going to move I want that movement to come when I ask the question okay not when they're just sitting here having a conversation and never make again more sense in a minute I want to focus on the behaviors that are directly as I said we associate it with the response do you say and do something as a response of my question okay one of those deceptive behaviors and I'm going to rely on what we call timing and clusters and this is really the big deal the timing of clusters thing so for example when I ask a question I want that person to show me a deceptive behavior within the first five seconds after I ask that question if they don't show me a deceptive behavior of the list that I'm going to show you in a minute and within five seconds they're not lying to me they're not lying to me okay I need to see you're here one of those behaviors in the first five seconds if I see the first behavior in the first five seconds I don't have to see another behavior for two or three or five or ten seconds all right but I do have to see that first one in the first five seconds now not trying to be catty here but I've seen CEOs that can live for 15 minutes on one question okay there's a behavior I'm going to show you that allows you to see that how that happens but what I want to make sure is that the first be happens in the first five seconds so this is what it looks like you're all bright people you know what five seconds is okay my other my other thing I want to pay attention to are clusters and this is what makes a difference in our deceptive behaviors versus other people's deceptive categories and techniques I want to see more than one deceptive behavior within that first five-second right within that answer so I've got these which are verbals ends that are non verbals I want to see at least two or more behaviors for that to be a deceptive answer does that make sense so by c1 I might not like it I'm going to pay attention to it but I really want two or more so if I'm saying that my first behavior has to be within the first five seconds right and I need two or more deceptive indicators do I have a deceptive answer here I do right now you notice that I've got one that that happens before I actually finish the question that question stimulus I'm asking you a question and I get a nonverbal deceptive behavior I'm gonna count that even though it's not within my first five seconds why do you think up someone might give me a nonverbal or a verbal deceptive behavior before I finish the question exactly they're starting to frame their answer and guess what they think faster than I talk all right they say that the average person talks 120 to 150 words a minute the brain goes much faster than that okay some some behavior let's say it goes at least 10 times faster some be able to say you can't measure because we don't think in words we think in concepts all right so if somebody gives me a verbal response or a nonverbal response before I finished my question it's simply because their brain is going faster than my mouth is all right and then I've got that outlier there that nonverbal that lies outside of that first five seconds am I going to count that what I am right Aaron I'm gonna count why am I gonna count it exactly because I had one that happened within the first five seconds right so any behaviors that I keep singing that fall outside that first five seconds before I ask another question is gonna be part of my cluster so if I've got one I've got seven here right that tells me I've got a liar that tells me I've got a person who's not being candid and by the way we never call him a liar we just say they're not being candid okay so I'm not I've got somebody who's not being candid with me what if I had just two inside that first five seconds would that be a truthful answer would that be a deceptive answer it would be deceptive right now is that lie right there a bigger lie than the person who only shows me two deceptive behaviors we have no way of knowing right we have no way of knowing that that two deceptive behaviors could be my son telling me it isn't at homework I'm sorry that one could be my son telling me he doesn't have homework all right the person who shows me two deceptive indicators might be a really really bad person but it comes down to how much someone's buying into the lie how important is it for me to convince you I'm being truthful and at the end of the day when people are doing this kind of stuff what they're trying to do is manipulate us okay manipulate us to believe them all right manipulation is a big thing but that's what they're doing they're doing and saying things to manipulate our thoughts about them okay so timing in clusters that's our most important thing timing in clusters we want to manage your bias all right now it says up here that I want to ignore truthful behavior why do you think I want to ignore truthful behavior any thoughts good okay right we're inherently good is everybody inherently good I mean she's right she's absolutely right you know look we were all raised to be good people well at least 90% of us in the room were raised to be good people I can't speak for everybody right but we were taught lying was wrong right and your parents tell you lying was not a good thing to do all right did your parents ever say to you look if you lie you're gonna be in twice as for trouble that you would have been if you had just told me the truth and done something wrong right so we know lying is wrong at least that's that's what we've been taught that lying is wrong deceptive people can give us truthful answers so if you ask a question of a person that they're comfortable answering they can answer that truthfully okay any discussion that you have any interview any any again anything that you're doing you're your buyer you're talking to folks and you want to get to the truth is this your lowest price and people are doing things to convince you that that's the lowest price let's start with that okay they are going to do things they're going to say things to convince you that that's the lowest price you are having a conversation with them you're trying to determine is it the lowest price what else can I get just lots of questions that you have you're taking notes you're thinking follow-up questions it is like getting a drink of water out of a firehose there's too much going on if I tell you forget about looking for truthful behavior because you will see it on some questions forget about looking at truthful behavior then that cuts your job half in half right now you're getting a drink of water out of a garden hose as opposed to out of a firehose all right it makes things a lot easier but truthful people or deceptive people who give you truthful answers make it look like they're good folks they're cooperative folks they're gonna give you everything that you need to get all right in reality what they're doing is convincing you that they're being truthful because you saw one good answer not several good answers okay for this a moment let's go back to Jamie what did Jamie do that made you think she was deceptive what'd she do somebody said somebody said she was lying right out of the box what does she do okay she can't she touched her face her feet were tapping what else she was blinking on too quick to answer all the questions okay conversely what did she do that you liked did all of you think she was guilty good what did she do that you liked okay okay that's good and were you the one that yelled out she's lying okay no no no I knew it came from that direction but but that's good right so it was one of these Scituate of these situations where you were yes yes no yes no that is every conversation that you will have with people sounds good sounds bad sounds good sounds bad how do we split between the two did I see it hand up over there yes yeah I didn't decorate the room I just did the interview but no you're absolutely right and that's when I talk about people manipulating our perception manipulating us to believe them that's exactly what I'm talking about because there were some questions that she answered pretty pretty nicely right there are some questions that she didn't what we what we do in a lot of situations is we ask people for example we do an investigation inside the organization you know one of our questions will be what do you do here and most of the people will just give you a job just hi a job title alright but the people that we know are already setting out to manage our perception will give us this long Job Description okay that goes way beyond what we're asking for so they gave us so much information and the purpose of that is again to convince us that they're good people well what happens when I hear if I if I'm a novice and I hear a truthful answer I start to think that's a good person it's a self-fulfilling prophecy okay I start to believe they're good I start to believe that they want to they want to cooperate and when I talk about the halo effect that's what I'm talking about so if I'm not looking for deceptive behavior and looking for truthful behavior instead I'm gonna find truthful behavior and it's gonna convince me early on that that person is good and then I'm gonna miss the bad I like the fact that you guys brought up a couple things that's gonna be here later I like the fact that you saw the feet moving I like the fact you saw the nose thing scratching your nose but which is right is she truthful or is she deceptive what makes us right alright so we're gonna talk that we're gonna get more into that alright I want to recognize evasiveness have you ever asked someone a question and they've talked for 10 minutes and then you realize they never answered the question you asked okay right I mean it it happens all the time if you ask somebody if you ask somebody is that your best price and they go through all these things tell you all these reasons why that's their best price but they haven't said no okay they've not given you the answer that you've asked for if you're if you're interviewing somebody for a job and you ask them if they've ever had problems with a with a provider or problems at a job and they give you all these great reasons for why they're a good employee but they never answer whether or not they had any problems in a job but we don't hear it because we're not thinking we're not listening for whether they answer the question or not we're just listening for whether answer so we need to make sure that they're actually giving us the information we're asking for the other thing is what we call failure to deny the most important thing to the honest person is giving you that answer denying if they didn't do something that's the most important thing the truth is their biggest ally so they're gonna want to deny something if they haven't done it okay they're gonna want to deny anything that is going to make them look better if they haven't done it so that's we need to listen for people to deny stuff then we have what we call exclusionary qualifiers now by exclusionary qualifiers I mean things like saying for the most part fundamentally not really not really exclusionary qualifiers beg for a follow up question all right absolutely beg for a follow up question now poor Aaron sat here right in front of me so I'm gonna be picking on her for the whole presentation but let's say okay I've met Aaron let's say I met Aaron last night and I really want to make a good impression with you guys so I go to Aaron this morning and I say hey Aaron look do you think what I'm wearing is okay for today now I realize I realize the conflict here because I'm sitting in front of a whole bunch of retail people okay some of you who sell clothes so I realize I'm putting myself right in the mix here but let's say the Aaron Darren do you see anything wrong with what I'm wearing and her response is not really think about this for a moment not really okay so you know if I'm in my optimistic mood which doesn't happen very often but I'm in an optimistic mood and I hear not really I think oh I'm okay right what I'm wearing is okay but if I don't hear it from an Austin output optimistic standpoint I hear it from a negative one I go oh really so my next question to Aaron is gonna be what that's my next question to Aaron okay well Aaron if there's if there's something you had to pick that you don't like about it what would it be you don't have to answer that I just want to see if you would know but you hear what I'm saying if somebody says not really it's begging a follow-up so my fault it's got to come because if I don't ask that follow-up I'm not gonna I'm not gonna get it all right I'm not gonna hear it I'm not gonna hear what the real answer is so if somebody says to you well fundamentally this is the way we do things or for the most part this is the things that we that this is the way we do things they're cutting something out we want to know what it is that they're cutting out so you have to ask that follow-up question well okay that's what you do basically but what did you do in this situation okay so that's exclusionary qualifiers I have used one of these before all right aggression attacking the questioner let's say you've had a theft and you're interviewing all of your employees all right and and you ask them did you did you have anything to do with this did you remove any of this information right and make just come back at you and say you guys always think it's me you know it's just because the way I was born or how I dressed or whatever if you always think it's me and they question they attack you you know how and you don't even in this store you don't even know what goes on people walk in and out all the time that's big all right when I talk about different behaviors there's some behaviors that way more than others aggression is one of those okay if you have somebody who jumps down your throat because you ask them a question I don't even care if it's your kid you know yet you say to your kid what did you do last night and they're like why are you always asking me this you don't trust me why don't you trust me okay what ever ever done all right you got a problem you got a problem all right attacking a third party all right it's the same sort of thing you know it locates the stores fog the store doesn't have very good security all right it's it's it's you know we have we don't have what we need in here you know you guys never bring the right stuff in of course that's gonna disappear because we can't sell it all right they're attacking the third party right again it's a big deal any time you're talking about aggression any sort of attack it's big demonstrating an inappropriate level of concern opposite ends of the spectrum you ask them a question you ask him like an important question and they're like oh please you know oh here we go again those sort of things or they just get angry they go from 0 to 124 for really no reason you just ask a question that's it let me give you a small example of that and you know in aggression can be words I mean concern can be words or it can be it can be what they do on their face any of you guys in here remember Scott Peterson great that killed us was convicted of killing his wife and unborn child Laci okay eventually he was convicted but before when he was sitting in jail there was an interview that they had with Diane Sawyer and leading up to it and Diane said but Scott here's the question everybody in America wants to know did you kill your wife now probably most of us would sit there and if we hadn't killed our spouses would try to figure out the right or would know the right things to say what Scott Peterson did and said was he smiled first thing he did was he smiled he goes I love my wife no no I wouldn't I wouldn't have kept I wouldn't kill lazy but he smiled how weird is that you made the hair on the back of my neck stand up somebody's just asked you if you killed your wife and unborn child and you're smiling okay so anyway in an appropriate level of concern now here's where I want to get into what you guys are talking about a minute ago this can this could convince versus convey if I ask what's your name Tiffany because I'm really tired of picking on poor Aaron even if I ask Tiffany Tiffany did you take the merchandise okay what are the two answers that Tiffany can give me that would let me know whether or not she took the merchandise what are the two appropriate answers that would convey information yes or no yes or no but what if I say Tiffany did you take the missing merchandise and she runs into this hole look I'm a good employee I've been loyal to this company for so long I've never done anything that would give you any reason to think I'm less than than a stellar employee what is she doing here is she conveying information is she trying to convince me of something she's trying to convince me of something right she's trying to convince me she's a good employee that nobody should ever have any question about okay that is what you're going to hear most of the time a convincing statement is the the strongest arrow that any person's going to have in their quiver okay saying I'm a good person I'm a good worker all of those sort of things when you talk about trying to try to manage someone's perception let me think about it think about it for just a moment because maybe Tiffany is a good person maybe Tiffany is a stellar employee maybe she had a bad day she took something and now she doesn't know what to do so when somebody's trying to convince me of something going back to minute ago when I said people can talk they can they can answer a question for ten minutes but never answer the question I asked they can talk all day when I said I've seen CEOs alive for twenty five minutes on a single question that's what I'm talking about they'll start talking about how healthy their company is how great their sales are how wonderful their employee and their management team are what they're doing is trying to convince me not convey information to me okay convincing statements are so strong let me give you another example from history you guys all remember our last name Susan the woman who put her children in the back of the car or in the car and their car seats and Susan Smith thank you how can you forget Smith okay Susan Smith she put her kids in the car seat you know push the car into the like way into the cops and said that somebody had carjacked her car right we were doing a training session for some for some law enforcement in Indiana and these gentlemen happened to be in the class they're from Union South Carolina they happen to be in the class and they came up and they said Hayden we now know how students Smith initially beat us when she came into the police station she ran into the station she's crying she's hysterical somehow I got to hijack my car my kids are in the car citizen did you have anything to do with it Susan Smith's answer was I love my children I would never harm my children why would I hurt my children what did you not hear you didn't hear a denial right you didn't hear her say no I didn't what you did hear her say was I wouldn't hurt my children guess what wouldn't and didn't aren't the same thing somebody says I wouldn't do something it's not the same thing as saying I didn't do something we have to listen for didn't okay we have to listen for the words what people are saying not what we think they say because when our thought doesn't make sense for someone to kill their kids right in fact in fact we said to them we said well what did you say to her and why did she beat you and they said because what she said made sense now for just a moment they hadn't done an investigation yet right she just came in she's crying she's hysterical she's got all this stuff going on they have no proof of anything other than the fact of what she's standing there telling them and so they say you know we said it what did you say what did you say we said what we asked her why she would say that and you know we got this behavior we didn't like this behaviors we finally said to her we said Susan look sometimes things happen and you know your parents your parents get out of control and for just a moment you know just a moment maybe something happened and she just continuing with no I love my children I would never hurt my children blah-blah-blah-blah-blah okay so what we say is when you hear convincing statements and you're you have no investigation in Susan Smith's case what you have to do is go hmm I just heard three protest statements or convincing statements I love my children I would never harm my children I do nothing my children I don't hear a denial if we talk about clusters being two or more do I have a lie absolutely right I've got the I've got the not I'm not answering or not giving me a denial and I've got three what we call convincing statements okay now convincing statements sounds so true or in this particular case eerie beautiful irrefutable let's say this the officers say to Susan so Susan look you say you didn't kill your wife I'll kill your kids prove it prove it and she goes I love my kids I take care of my kids I take him to church they're happy they're well fed they're well clothed all this sort of stuff now mr. police officer what do you have at this point they got nothing so convincing statements sound really true again Tiffany may be a good person but that didn't answer my question okay so guess who I'm gonna be looking at I'm gonna be looking at Tiffany okay referral statements referral statements are statements that people make over and over again to try to convince you didn't do anything wrong all right so let's say let's say this young lady standing up back right here let's say she went outside to go to the bathroom while I'm standing here talking she comes back in and she was hey Susan let me interrupt for just a sec I need you guys to know that there are sort of little green men running around the hallway and what's our first impression of this young lady who just walked in right okay but let's say she does know I know I know it's hard to believe but I'm telling you some little green men running around out there now what are we inclined to do go look right so she's now starting to bring us in we're starting to believe a little bit about what she says that again is perception manipulation all right invoking religion people will talk about you know swear on stack of Bibles I swear to God and the counting world I swear on GAAP you know all these sort of things that that people all these sort of things that people will tell us because let's face it and this more specially in this world of political you know rightness and everybody wanting to be good and not step on anybody's toes somebody throws out religion what are you having your backpack your purse your desk drawer that beats religion okay that's a dangerous dangerous one perception qualifiers are a little different than exclusionary qualifiers perception qualifiers are that that people say and do to dress up their lie to verbally dress up their life things like well to tell you the truth honestly frankly as some of you are maybe sitting in this room and saying Oh crepe these are that's the common phrase for me I'll say that stuff all the time right it's a habit okay you're lucky because we're looking at clusters okay so you get your frankly you get your honestly it's when you start having start having more and more because deception and your answer that we're gonna pay attention okay nonverbals now a lot of times people will say to me well Susan if you say that the behaviors start within the first five seconds I'll beat you and just not do or say anything for five seconds well unfortunately for you a behavioral pause is a deceptive indicator okay now for just a moment you have to think about this because you have to ask yourself if you get a pause so the question makes sense for a pause so if I say the Aaron for example Aaron let's see January 26th ten years ago what were you doing does that allow a pause right okay so it's only fair that she gets a pause there but what if I say so Aaron January 26 ten years ago did you rob the bank of America yet see she answered that pretty quickly right if they had taken her time to think about that answer you guys got to look at your hiring policies okay because that would have been a problem all right verbal nonverbal disconnect what I want you to do it once you do a little trip for me for another little game for me for a moment I want you to look at the person sitting next to you before you do it though look at me I want you to look at the person sitting next to you and I want you to say do you like me okay and I want that person to go yes I like you very much okay and then I want you to switch so do it real quick because we're how much time okay okay all right okay all right I don't have a lot of time okay did that feel weird did that feel weird all right and that's telling you to do that okay that's telling you to do that and you find it hard to do you're deliberately doing it if you see someone do that it's huge it means their brain is so fried that they're not doing what their body is made to do okay now everything that I'm talking about with example with exceptions to that one verbal nonverbal disconnect is cross-cultural cross-gender you can use it anywhere in the world this one is one of those you cannot all right you can't because they're India for example they that's how they answer all right but every place else you can use the verbal nonverbal disconnect you just have to know your audience a little bit anchor point movements anchor point movements are the things that anchor you to the ground to the world to the earth for example my feet right now would be anchor points if my arms are like this they would be anchor points if you asked me a question and in response to that question I move my arms or my legs that's an anchor point movement all right you mentioned the feet if I'm sitting in a chair my bottom is my anchor point my back is my anchor point my feet are my anchor point feet are always anchor points all right we all women especially ABBA tend to sit with their legs crossed and we have that foot that's dangling we call a hanging anchor point watch it because that's where it's gonna go that person is trying to maintain control of themselves it's going to go to that floating anchor point grooming gestures things that people do to again dress up the lie they might fix their tie they might fix their hair they might look at their watch anything like that that would be dressing up the life physically and then finally hands to the face okay if some if someone is in a flight-or-fight syndrome or flyer fight phase which means that they rather than tell you the truth they're gonna try to keep it in they're gonna do stuff the the blood vessels at the ends of the fingers and the ends start to shrink and itches so they will start playing with their their nose or their ear or scratch their hands or like that so hands to the face are huge okay any questions you want to know the shot at her oh yes sir there seem to be an art or science around the pauses that you had after every question can you talk a little bit about yes I can it means I'm cutting my can you ask me in the answer question session I do what I'm supposed to do okay all right let's but but you're absolutely right let's look at her real quick think about things that we talked about think about what you guys mentioned earlier about you would like the fact that she was answering his questions more but that's not good okay and she didn't really answer the question so the more people talk the worse it is okay so let's go my first question for you Jimmy is what involvement to do have in the companies recently discovered far as we went accounting activities oh nine appropriate level of concern feet move did you make you write to mr. Gulen to backdate any contracts no of course not feet move an appropriate level of prior to the recent audit that uncovered these accounting irregularities did you have any knowledge that mr. Glenn was back dating contracts no I mean in fact if I had knowledge about that then I would speak up and say something convincing statement I would spoke up move is there any reason that forensic computer with you would uncover any communication with mr. Glenn regarding this matter no of course I don't have any communication with them regarding this at all I'm okay with that one except for the feet move but that's the only one behavior at anytime mr. Gulen ever reveal or discusses efforts to manipulate the company's accountings with you know if he had then I would have told someone fired and gotten something something would have happened if I knew anything I had some against some convincing statements feet love feet Jamie why should we believe that your I've always had a very good reputation with the company I have no enemies in the company you know and you know I I've always done my best and I believe that I have a very good reputation with that and people trust me and I I would never do something like that especially for something that I've worked so hard at ok I'm gonna end that because I think we all see the convincing statements we see the feet and things like that I'm not going to just go through the rest of the questions how do we feel about her now she's a liar yeah well just so you know at the end of my rope my role in this investigation was not only to find the person who was being deceptive but to confront the person who I thought was being deceptive just so you know she showed over 26 deceptive behaviors in that short interview ok for me it was a neon sign I knew immediately it was her okay so anyway there's the keys to success the ones that we talked about Shireen's gonna come up here I know we got a couple questions so can I answer his question ok they're done so yes I put pauses between my questions and the answer the reason for that is because you make it just south of being uncomfortable people have a tendency to want to fill in quiet spaces and a lot of times they'll do those quat though they'll fill it in with convincing statements or other things that will be deceptive if I don't see anything else then I'll ask the question but I always try to wait at least three or four seconds before I ask my second question because if my if I'm machine-gunning Adam and asking questions it makes them very comfortable to just answer real quickly I have a really quick question for you cuz we're almost out of time but how does it how does all of this work on the phone um good question it does work on the phone obviously you lose the verbal I mean the nonverbal so you don't see the person moving or anything like that but you can hear the chair squeak when they move back and forth in the chair what you'll be paying more attention to is the verbal obviously listening for whether they're doing any things that we that we talked about here and be careful very careful when you're on the phone interviews about mind drift don't be thinking about what your next question be thinking about what they're saying in their answer okay yes that's that's a good question the behavior if you're doing the verbal you account for nervousness okay if you're if you're looking the timing and clusters thing again nervous behaviors nervous behavior but you're looking for the timing and those deceptive behaviors and once you see those you'll start to see the nerve you don't care whether they're nervous okay because people do stuff and you don't know how people manifest nervousness versus deception so you really have to follow the behaviors the timing and clusters and the behaviors because you everybody wants to get it right so we we do and and I gave you the short and dirty of all this stuff there's actually a book out we wrote cost by the lie which has a lot more detail in it and can help you as much as you want a little plug we also do training all around the country if you guys think your company might want their training at one of your your off sites or something like that we would come in and give you a longer presentation our normal presentations like three and a half hours thanks guys couple quick housekeeping

Channel: Digiday

Views: 6,230,426

Rating: 4.6045213 out of 5

Keywords: digiday, Qverity, Spy the Lie, Susan Carnicero, summit

Id: pni_kDv9BsU

Length: 47min 46sec (2866 seconds)

Published: Tue Feb 09 2016

Reddit Comments

[u/powderdd]

From what I remember from forensic psychology, the research shows that pros are no better than lay people at detecting lies--they both perform around levels that would be expected by chance. The difference is that professionals are more confident in their ability to detect lies, meaning they're more confident in their judgement, but really no better.

[u/zombiesingularity]

Step 1: They are a CIA Officer

[u/elgallopablo]

Torture that person until they sign whatever you want, that's when you know they are finally telling the truth.

Really? this thing has 10 upvotes in one hour, on a weekend, on this sub. Totally not shilling.

[u/[deleted]]

found her slides here:

https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/digiday/deception-training-by-a-former-cia-agent

[u/JayPee3010]

Dr. Pavel, I'm CIA