STAR WARS: PALPATINE VS SNOKE

once upon a time there was an evil Galactic Empire for decades the Empire ruled over thousands of worlds until one day a powerful hero led a group of brave rebel warriors to victory against the evil emperor and his minions and just like then the dark reign of the Empire was over its remnants shattered to the furthest stars but that was not the last the galaxy ever saw of the Empire the fractured fleets and commanders united into a new force under the great leadership of Jeff whose chief bigot Palpatine did need a back story when Disney unleashed its version of Star Wars the revamp franchise invoked quite a bit of controversy and one of the more infamous controversies has been over the backstory of series antagonist Supreme Leader Snoke Snoke is a figure as hinted by JJ Abrams his mystery box theory purposely shrouded in well mystery which might sound like an interesting idea until you realize mysteries only work if handled competently so when the new era of Star Wars inevitably failed to provide a payoff on the mystery anyone with a semi-functioning brain said something along the lines of hey wait a minute Snoke did we never told us about his backstory to which a favorite response has been will Emperor Palpatine D need a backstory so why does Snoke although it's heartwarming to see shame culture making a lovely home in the new gentle and tolerant Star Wars fandom anyone claiming Snoke doesn't need a back story because Palpatine didn't have one is just being fashionably stupid fiction is a curious thing everywhere you turn there's a whole roster of tips tricks and advice telling aspiring creators what you can and can't do however there are no hard rules to writing every rule can be broken and any bad idea can become a good idea with the right spin but if there was one thing that might be considered a solid rule to writing its plot relevancy in other words only adding elements that are essential to the story no more no less too much and your work becomes boring too little and your work becomes implausible so while it's a good idea to explain why your character has special powers it might not be a good idea to choose that moment for a lengthy history lesson for example in Star Wars a new hope when Luke learned that his father was a hero of the Clone Wars obi-wan could have spent time recalling the events leading up to the war or the politics surrounding it he didn't and it worked it worked because the Clone Wars had no real effect on the plot the point of the exchange between Luke and obi-wan was to establish Luke's uniqueness the audience just needs to know about the war and about Luke's father being a hero in that war then suddenly Luke Skywalker changes from bumpkin farm kid to space wizard war heroes son and speaking from a storytelling point of view that's a pretty big difference so keeping that in mind I hope it doesn't come as too much of a surprise when I tell you that Emperor Palpatine did have a backstory and no and not including the prequels because that would be cheating but can't remember he was right in plain sight give up every plot relevant detail you need to know about Palpatine's backstory in the original Star Wars trilogy can be found in his title of Emperor everyone knows about Star Wars taking heavy inspiration from the classical hero's journey but often gets ignored or even forgotten is Lucas's love of Pope serials that little detail usually gets paired up with Indiana Jones but the influence at the pulp shanwa had on Lucas is apparent in both works and that's important to note because one of the foundations of the pulp genre is its use of black and white morality good guys versus bad guys Luke and his plucky rebellion versus the tyranny of the evil empire Luke Skywalker's goal is to defeat the Empire and in the romantic pulp setting of Star Wars the way to do that is to defeat the Emperor and that's all you need to know about Palpatine within the context of the original trilogy he's the leader of the stormtroopers he's the creator of the Death Star he's the master of Darth Vader the emperor is the ultimate bad guy the final boss and the reason he's the final boss is because every evil empire needs an evil emperor and Palpatine is it Snoke on the other hand doesn't have the same luxury let's put aside the fact that Disney Star Wars comes to us at a time when the tastes of the modern moviegoer have evolved we've come to expect more complexity in our stories and characters sympathetic villains and morally questionable heroes Supreme Leader Snoke still has a much bigger narrative role to fill than Palpatine and that's partly due to the weight dumped on the character by Abrams as mystery-box theory the force awakens takes place in a post Imperial Galaxy a military faction originating from the remnants of the evil empire emerges to form the first order kylo Ren son of Leia and Han Solo and personally trained by Luke Skywalker turned against everyone he's ever known and sitting at the head of all this chaos his supreme leader Snoke if that weren't intriguing enough in an age where the Jedi are practically extinct in the Sith was supposedly gone Snopes mastery of the dark side already comes attached with a lot of questions but even putting that aside he still has a lot of narrative elements to answer for uniting the splintered remnants of the Empire convincing kylo Ren to turn against everyone who's ever loved him and everything he's been taught building a shotgun version of the Death Star amassing an army big enough to wage war on an entire galaxy somehow funding a whole new Armada without support from taxes or economy and he did all this and they quote unknown regions of the galaxy but still it would be possible to pass him off without a backstory if his backstory were needed to answer so many plot relevant questions the big one being on what authority is he sitting at the highest level of the first order it doesn't seem like he was a politician turned Imperial separatist he was in Palpatine's appointed successor all the first movie tells us is that he's a big ugly guy in charge the driving force in the new trilogy is the looming threat of the first order and the rise of the darkside and these are only threats because of Snoke Palpatine's role in the original movies was to be the personification of the empire Snopes role in the new movies is as the dark puppetmaster he may lead the first order but he's also separate from it in other words he isn't a personification of the order and so his presence and role are not explained by the order he's his own man with a past shrouded in mystery a mystery that for the sake of the plot requires some explanation Disney's handling of note is indicative as to how they're handling the entire franchise directionless and the truth is Snoke was obviously planned to be mysterious he's a powerful master of the dark side who came virtually out of nowhere and is now sitting at the head of an evil army the writers wanted fans to speculate about snoke's identity to try and piece together where he fits within the Canon lore was he Palpatine's master was he the legendary Darth Plagueis is he a fallen hero from the Clone Wars who has now returned evil and deformed is he Luke Skywalker in disguise the writers knew what they were doing and the possibilities were endless so when you're sitting around wondering about snoke's backstory and feeling shame for committing wrong think because you aren't blindly and loving the movies that you're supposed to just remember that Palpatine had all the plot relevant backstory he needed it's Snoke who promised more and never delivered and for any aspiring writer out there take a lesson from Disney's Star Wars you can write whatever you like push any agenda you want and try any experimental story structure you want just remember every question brought up by the plot is like a promise you make to the audience do your best to keep those promises it's good to learn from your mistakes but it's even better to learn from someone else's mistakes you

Channel: Literature Devil

Views: 204,328

Rating: 4.9492726 out of 5

Keywords: creative writing, star wars, palpatine, snoke, disney, force awakens

Id: bBAeEFjXAns

Length: 9min 31sec (571 seconds)

Published: Sat May 12 2018

Reddit Comments

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[u/Theesm]

It's simple. It makes sense that an empire has an emperor. It makes no sense that after the death of said emperor there is some other very old powerful darksider in charge we never heard of without explanation. It makes no sense to have a narrative that says in chapter 6 the evil dark lord dies, just to have a different evil dark lord in the throne in chapter 7

[u/EggsandLambs]

If Snoke had been younger or less powerful then we probably would have accepted him with a lot less questions, or at least had an easier time answering them in our headcanon. But Disney's Lucasfilm is so devoted to neutering and overshadowing the OT/PT that they have to outdo everything that made those things special or impressive.

Snoke is older and more powerful than Palpatine

Rey has a harder life than Anakin or Luke

Rey is more powerful than Anakin or Luke or Obi-Wan or Yoda

Poe is a better pilot than Han or Luke

the new Force abilities are wilder and more powerful than the old Force abilities

BB-8 is cuter and more capable than R2D2

Starkiller is bigger and can destroy more planets than either Death Star

Maz is older and more mobile than Yoda

I could go on and on...

[u/HelloDarkestFriend]

This post in the YT comments by GanonGhidorah is a perfect explanation of why Snoke fails so badly where Emperor Palpatine succeded.

Build.

There's also something more that Palpetine had that Snoke didn't...Build-up...

The Emperor was mentioned in A New Hope - the guy in charge of the Empire just swept away the senate; meaning there is no longer a branch of Government that he must peddle to in order to get what he wants. He now officially holds absolute power over the entire Galaxy.

Now think about what we saw in the original Star Wars all the way up to the midpoint of Empire; from what we saw, Vader was the badguy - the main antagonist of the entire franchise at this point. He was big, scary, had a dark costume, an emotionless face, and he killed Obi-Wan after torturing Princess Leia. He's the kind of guy that can crush a man's windpipe with ONE hand. Vader is a scary and intimidating force...

So that being said...when he's so desperate to catch the Millennium Falcon to the point of losing ships in an Asteroid Field, WHAT does he do when he learns the Emperor is calling him?

He immediately moves the ship out of the field to send a clear transmission, and when he takes that call...for the first time ever - we see VADER - the big bad of these movies - fall to one knee...Vader fears and respects THIS guy, because THIS guy is SO far above him; and he shows that dedication and respect by being punctual and not making mistakes or slip-ups. And when we see Palpetine for the first time, he's projected as a large, intimidating blue hologram, shrouded in darkness - making Vader look so tiny by comparison.

THIS is the guy who is REALLY in-charge of everything. And even though it greatly conflicts with how he is in Return, the portrayal of him is meant to further evoke a mysterious vibe from him, and an almost inhuman like quality to his eyes.

This guy was intimidating if he had someone like VADER so terrified of him. And what's even worse is, by the end of the movie Vader reveals his plans to overthrow the Emperor - meaning that he is incapable of moving against him ALONE without Luke's help, because of HOW much he fears the man.

And we as the audience should too, if the opening of Return is any indication with Vader talking with the Commander on Death Star II - the mere acknowledgement that the Emperor himself is coming to the Death Star legitimately terrifies the guy, to the point where - despite he knows his resources are exhausted - he will somehow double the efforts of his workers...

And Vader's threat against the man, describing the Emperor's attitude and methods as being LESS forgiving than his own, are a clear indication of what the man is capable of...

Even YODA was afraid of this guy and warned Luke not to underestimate him...

Then of course, every scene he's in shows that Vader is intimidated by him and we can see how visibly uncomfortable Luke is by being in the man's presence. He taunts Luke and goads him like some sadistic bond-villain, until finally a fight between father and son breaks out...all the while, the man is cackling maniacally - entertained by the proceedings.

All of this builds up to a reveal of his terrible power - the Force Lightning; something that we didn't even know was possible.

So, Palpatine is built up throughout the OT films as the scariest monster in an Empire filled with monsters; someone whom even Darth Vader is so scared to leave hanging on the phone, he'll drop trying to kill someone the second his Master calls.

All I'm saying is...Palpetine had build-up that led to a satisfying pay-off... Now let's look at Snoke... I gotta be honest...he's mentioned like...ONCE in the Credit Scrawl of Force Awakens...and then, by the time he's mentioned again half-way through, he's suddenly revealed in the next scene...It's kind of jarring like - "Whoa, who the fuck is this guy? His name is Snoke? What the hell kind of a name is Snoke? This is Star Wars! Pick a better name!" And truth be told, Snoke is one of the most eye-rolling things about the movie, because it seemed SO desperate to once-again retread the same territory for Star Wars; this guy was just another Palpetine down to a T...but I kept thinking that MAYBE something interesting or unique would be revealed about him...

And something was...His Fashion Sense is terrible...Instead of being a cold, intimidating presence in The Last Jedi...he instead wants to be "SHINY!" - just have him be voiced by Jemaine Clement and we're as good as done.

That's the thing about Snoke...there was no build-up to him. He's just THERE...so matter-of-factly; just like the First Order, they were just "there"...I don't think Disney Lucasfilm understood the fact that there were NO movies coming in between this trilogy and the old one. And regardless of what they might think, Lucas structured the first trilogy intentionally with holes to be filled in later by the prequels. But just having what is effectively a facsimile of The Empire, the Emperor, and a brand-spanking new Death Star...it genuinely comes off like nothing has changed; like the efforts of the Rebels from the Original Trilogy were all pointless, because the Empire wasn't ever defeated.

And of course, with a movie about a lonely orphan Kid on a Desert Planet, who finds a valuable droid with valuable information, having to escape the Planet on the Millennium Falcon, meeting with Han Solo and Chewbacca, and of course forming a parent-child relationship with an older mentor-figure, only to have that Mentor-Figure killed by a masked man cloaked in black - who has a long personal relationship with him - all on a Massive Planet-Destroying Super-weapon...

Yeah...I just stopped caring at a point. The moment I saw Star Killer Base, I immediately gave up on the movie.

Snoke is just there; no build, no reputation, no sense of fear or intimidation, and then gets offed in humiliating fashion without any consequences.

[u/Godgivesmeaboner]

I don't think they really put much thought into the character. He's just a generic bad guy. They didn't even know what he was going to look like when they filmed the movie, they designed his character during post production.

[u/[deleted]]

Why Palpatine works and Snoke doesn't? For the same reason Death Star was fine, but Starkiller base made me roll my eyes. A lazy copy can't match the original because it is just that - a copy with little to no original elements. We've already had an old, sorcerer-like big bad on the throne, ordering around a younger force-using enforcer. Just because it worked the first time around doesn't mean you should just rehash it rather than do something new. Snoke was literally the OT Palpatine 2.0. with the looks of older Voldemort.

[u/primitive_screwhead]

Name an iconic Palpatine quote: I can think of several from the OT and PT. Now, name an iconic Snoke quote...