Secular Gods | Ravi Zacharias & Vince Vitale | Joni Table Talk

[Music] well what is the purpose or meaning of life it's a question that mankind has been asking since the beginning of time or at least since leaving the Garden of Eden and there's a world of different views out there so how do we as Christians take on the challenge of answering these views or we're going to do that today our special guests around the table Vince vitally welcome great to be with you good to have you here we have two scholars on each in so it's gonna be a really smart program Rachel lamb Brown how are you good I'm excited about this show I know that a lot of you have difficult questions and we're gonna be trying to answer some of those today that's right Rebecca welcome is always hey thanks mom you love Ravi Zacharias yes all right Cindy Murdock how are you I'm good and so excited I have loved and followed our guests since the early 90s so are you serious serious yeah welcome dr. Ravi Zacharias it's such an honor to have you here well nice to be with you all and maybe you may be sandwiched between two but I think the toasts look dry well in their new book Jesus among secular gods Ravi and Vince dive into the thoughts and believes many hold that are in opposition of a biblical worldview and they're here to share more about this so Robbie let's start with you why did you in Vince come together and write this book why is it an important time to hear that we have heard one before that too we call that wise suffering Johnny and Vince is such an easy one to write with he's really the brains behind these books Princeton what happens is he he just tells me what I'm to do title the chapters that I'm to address and seriously you know sound or humorous but he pulls it all together and that's important yeah yeah when a book has to go to the publisher it has to be skin tight and he does but we did it because I've written one year ago called Jesus among other God's the uniqueness of Jesus contrasting other religious worldviews and the answers of Jesus that are so different to anyone else this had to do with the secular times humanism scientism hedonism relativism what is the answer of Jesus to these isms and these philosophies yeah so Vince what about you this journey writing this book what does it meant to you well it's meant a lot to me I think a lot of my own personal story is caught up in this type of book because when I first got to college I thought Christianity was for people who didn't think hard enough you know I thought it was for people who just didn't take the life of the mind at that point I was an atheist or an atheist leaning agnostic but really I just couldn't imagine that there could actually be evidence and arguments in favor and belief of a supernatural being and I'm very thankful to have been shown incredibly wrong by a really loving community of people who asked me some hard questions took my questions very graciously challenged me to read the Bible and I argued my way through I would cross things out and add things and write words that I don't use anymore in the margins but as I was wrestling through the Bible I was also falling in love with the person of Jesus and a lot of the questions that I had to deal with in my own journey or questions that we deal with in this book I think a lot of Christians shy away from sharing the faith because there's a handful of questions that you never want to get asked because you don't have no idea what to say well if you were going for an interview for your dream job and they gave you the questions in advance it's you would study for them right and the reality is we know what the questions of our culture are we know what the questions of our friends and our family are this is supposed to be a resource to help you to actually know what to say one of the things I loved and you were sharing earlier I love this because some of you watching you may even do this those especially those of you that are searching for truth as you begin to read the Bible you actually would write little curse words like that's a bunch of BS besides passages because you were just being real with God in like this search and yet as you continue to read what made the Bible stand out as opposed to all the other that's right I mean that's that's where I was you know Christians would sort of look over my shoulder and say why do you have a BS and the margin of your Bible and there's no that verse makes for a great viable study right and thankfully as I continued to reading I had to keep crossing out more and more of those and I was falling in love with the person of Jesus but you know we we take for granted how radically distinctive Jesus was I mean something like the Golden Rule do to others as you would have them do to you we just take that for granted today that was radically distinctive when Jesus spoken you cannot find that idea or that line anywhere else in history love your enemies love your enemies pray for those who persecute you you will not find that in the Muslim faith Confucius probably comes closest he said do not inflict on others what you don't want inflicted on you but that's radically different that thing don't punch someone in the face cuz you don't want to be punched Jesus is saying go and build your enemy a hospital so out of all of the different isms that you tackle in this book is there one that you see today coming the most popular amongst college students you know I I will defer to Vince on that because as I read the book I've just finished by Vince I do humanism relativism atheism he does hedonism the pleasure Driven Life he also does scientism which is very important and I think if you walk into a campus the average assumption is that everything can be explained by science that science is sort of the queen of the disciplines and science has disproved the existence of God these are the assumptions I remember one suit that Cornell coming up graduate student coming up to the platform and I'd finished and she had literally tears ruined she said every waking moment Here I am asked to live with a naturalistic framework naturalism is all there is scientist all there is you don't need God to explain it and she said you're asking for the ultimate paradigm shift and I did that preamble to say vince's chapter on scientism is well worth the price of the book really as I read what he had done there so why don't you just expand on that what is it that you feel is so critical about that issue again it's a personal one for me because I had assumed that early in college I can remember going into a bookstore and picking up a book that described itself on the back cover as an attempt to hold on to some form of Christianity while doing away with all of the miraculous trying to explain everything in scientific terms and I can remember being attracted to that because I was falling in love with the person of Jesus but I just thought that science explained everything and that you couldn't have miracles this is one of the issues that I most enjoy speaking to because it could not be more reversed probably the two most significant scientific discoveries in cosmology in the last hundred years are that the universe had a beginning when that beginning was people will debate about but that had a beginning and then that the universe is incredibly finely tuned for life that the chance of life without the existence of a God would be utterly utterly minuscule some people say one part in 10 to the power of 10 to the power of 123 if you were to write that out as a percentage even if you turned all the matter of the universe into paper you wouldn't have enough room to write all the zeros that you would need how could the universe have a beginning what's the cause of that beginning go right to the beginning of your Bible in the beginning that's a discovery that coheres very well with the Bible and then that fine tune in this for life if the world is just random why would we have life like ours scientists don't have an explanation for that but if you have a God who's loving and desires to be in relationship with people you have a great answer for that question and then science itself just the fact that we live in a regular universe that can be scientifically explained because there are patterns and we can come to learn things I assign said the most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible if there's no god there's no reason to think that the world would have or will continue to remain regular they're an infinite number of different strengths gravity could take tomorrow why would it stay the same day after day hour after hour year after year I think only if you have the world being governed by a God who loves you and desires for you to live achill here in life so not only do I not think that science disproves God I actually think that only God proves science that's so good started the book telling a story about how you're in Moscow and how you were talking to someone and they said what do you mean by God how common is that becoming it's getting more common in the United States the Harvard University last year and the new student registration had the highest number of atheists ever in their declared application yeah it is fascinating you know when you think about Rachel that while those who have lived with atheistic countries are now finding out it simply doesn't work here we have lived with theistic assumptions and we are trying to go away from it the fastest-growing church in the world is in China and I remember one of the professors from one of the leading universities in China sitting at my office in Atlanta telling me that Chinese Communist professor looked at him one day and said stop criticizing communism he said to this other professor he said it is only because of communism that you have an audience you're so ready to listen to you about the existence of God because they have found out how Communists as communism as dehumanized and betrayed the very essence and value of human life so stop criticizing it because of that you have an open arena today to talk so it is common but the one you're referring to was I did two meetings in the same day some years ago at the Center for geopolitical strategy in Moscow which has I think 8 storeys above ground 4 storeys below ground and at the Lenin military academy and they were all lazy all of the faculty were raised here every one of them and all but one in the audience of the Academy I remembered being atheist as well the one was proclaimed reciprocally myself a Christian a wonderful man but yes having that forum there and now when we go the openness that we have amongst them is quite remarkable it's a para it's very difficult though as the head of the Department of all of the departments in center for geopolitical strategy said to me as we were walking away and they had come down they were quite hostile my wife was sitting on one side my colleague on the other of nearly three hours I was answering their very hostile questions and finally when we will leaving they stood up in line they kiss the back of my wife's hand thanked her for coming and then the man the man who headed it all up looked at me and said missus I cries thank you for coming here and defending theism I want you to know I believe what you are telling us is the truth but it is very difficult to change after 70 years of believing a lie so if the paradigm shift is huge but because of that we are seeing big audiences everywhere we go and you know we should recognize that our students in the university campus at least are coming to listen they know their own naturalistic worldview has not given them answers they admit that so we have we have a team of 47 apologists placed in 15 countries globally full-time and they're all very very busy you know I posted something that you spoke about concerning women and we have a lot of women that watch the program you mentioned China you think about all the underground pastors that are Chinese women how does God feel about using women in ministry well you know I think that question was asked at one of major universities which surprised me and I think he said he struggled with the faith because of that and I forget the range of my answer but I told him two or three things in response I said you know the most important truth on which the entire edifice of Christendom stands everything we believe hangs on one very strong peg is the peg of the resurrection from the dead that Jesus rose again from the dead and it is fascinating to me that that evidence and that message was first given to them who's at that time who's ever whose witness would not have been considered in court Jesus is bringing redemption to the whole world on the cross and what does he say he wants somebody to take care of his mother all right and then the Apostle Paul turned from Saul of Tarsus to Paul what does Paul say writing to Timothy to remember what you learned from your mother and your grandmother the heartbeat of so much of Christendom today has hung on what women have done we get so bogged down in the wrong questions Amy Carmichael but Catherine booth you think of Mother Teresa but it's great women of the faith who have withstood all kinds of persecution and endurance God lives in this temple through us to him that's what this is not whether we're a man or a woman but we honor him with as the temple of the Living God and I can say this to you truthfully and it's not just meant to sound very flattering I would not be here if it weren't for my mother my dad had given up on me and if it had not been for my mother who literally took the blows the physical blows between my dad and me Benny would completely lose his temper and for her to stand by me and that's why her last wish before she died was that I preached at her funeral she watched my life transformed anyone who thinks God cannot use or does not use women has neither read history nor understands what the Bible really teaches about the great privilege of ministry so many people you hear around the world will stand up and say it was my mother's faith was my mother's faith you look at John Wesley the father was ever absent in the time of trouble she gave birth to 19 children she herself was one of 29 and it was John and Charles that she had produced right at her deathbed as the silver cord was being loosened at that point anyone who doesn't had in a dismal church history and doesn't truly understand what the Scriptures teach about these are vessels of jars of clay and that's what God calls upon to be is Iowa's show that the womankind and I would never be here if it weren't for them yep I know that's encouraging for so many of you watching there's a call upon your life men and women but some of you have been held back and I know that encouraged you today Beck I know you and Rachel that encouraged you right absolutely so what's your question you want to ask is in a you have million Rachel Cynthiana you do as well well actually one of these I wanted to touch on was it's just so encouraging here that so many people are coming to y'all's forums and that shows me that people really are searching for truth and it makes it think about that verse that God has hidden eternity in our hearts and then just I'm so thankful for what y'all are doing amendments were talking one of the things that we appreciate about you so much is the humility and the way that you addressed questions and love I know that when I was going through my journey you couldn't have won me over through a theological argument are you know through telling me you know why I should believe but it's when people stop trying to tell me and they started showing me by loving me when it didn't make sense that my heart turn around you're very kind and let me say with all the gladness in my heart my delight in being part of this team is the younger apologists that are coming along the bike we as I said we have 47 full-time you take the like events you know here he's in his 30s and so robust in his evangelistic zeal we've got a whole slew of them and they have accomplished a lot more in their younger years than I ever did in my earlier years and that's one of the reasons I feel God has given me this burden to give them the best kind of education along the way that every one of them could get their doctoral degree which is their passport to some of the arenas these young ones we've got them in their 20s 30s 40s and 50s os Guinness John Lennox and I are the dinosaurs you know we are in the latter part of our lives but these younger ones so thank you for saying what you're doing but the biggest challenge we want to have right now is to equip the younger ones and they are anointed young men and women and I told my wife with the opening of the Zechariah's Institute for apologetics about to be launched end of March I can honestly say I feel that my mission in life has been accomplished to watch what is happening if God gives me any more years I will do it with delight but that they're coming along the way I feel is really the gravy on the on the on the main course here that God has honored his word and bringing the best to them and now we are seeing these all over the globe is not just our ministries so many what you all are doing through television you know it's amazing touching countries that we could never even get to well we believe that you've got quite a few more years for you you probably want to ask a question we've got some from our viewers that are coming up so we'll see what we can get in I do in your book you touched a little bit on the difference or how to define believing and trust because there is a scripture that talks about even demons believe and shudder mmm-hmm so when we're dealing with that when you're teaching and trying to persuade how do we bring them to a place beyond belief but into a life of trust this is great question Cindy I think we all go through that and sometimes we fluctuate with it a young person can believe he is talking to his father and mother but he may not trust his father and mother and may not be fully committed and there's a world of a difference in that attitudinal stance I may believe very well somebody who wants to give me a certain transaction but do I trust that person with the transaction as to what the motive and what the purpose is Trust is a reliance it's a dependence when we sat down on these chairs we trusted that they would bear the weight we are putting on them life is always an interplay between faith and reason you never go purely with reason you never go purely with faith when you get onto a plane you don't go to the cockpit and ask the pilot to show you his or her license you believe that the system is working for that so when you are you know in one way of quickly in one of the old translations of a language that was very minor in its rubber in this verbiage one of the early missionaries didn't know how to translate belief and he was going through John 3:16 and they had no such word for belief so then he found out that when they sat on a chair they cost their complete weight on and said what do you call that they said well we lean we on this and so he used the word who server leans on Jesus will have everlasting life so it's costing your care and your dependents belief can be a theoretical idea Trust has moral ramifications in it and so when you trust God it is not just a fact of your belief it is the moral basis that you believed cast upon it it's so good that's so good some some of you watching Ronnie you're going through some very difficult situations of life and that speaks directly to you you believe in God you love God but can you trust him to carry you through this storm and I want to tell you today that you can trust him I love that so many of you had some tough theological questions you sent in so we're gonna see how many we can get in we'll start with you Rachel do you have one I have one of my own okay just and all-powerful because if he was all-powerful he could have stopped things like the Holocaust but he didn't so is he not just yes absolutely and obviously we not only believe that be also trust him to be it and that's why he Jesus said the words blessed are those who are not offended in me that they said he was who he claimed to be but they were not sure they would take him all the way when Jesus looked at Peter and asked him who men said they where he was and he gave his on service and who do you say that I am that's when he came up with they're not offended in me because he said thou art the Christ the Son of the Living God and Jesus said you know flesh and blood has not revealed that to you Simon but my father who is in heaven and from that time onwards the scripture says he started talking to them about the manner in which he would die because that's where they were going to say this can't be and then he went on to say Simon when you were young you went wherever you want to do when you're old you're gonna be taken to places you did not want to go that element of recognition and creedal affirmation had to be followed by the trust that even the cross was going to be in the will of the Heavenly Father remember this when we raise a question you always raise it with moral implications Kenji be just and God be just no powerful moral reasoning cannot be invoked without the existence of an all-powerful eternal God so the very question assumes the existence of God otherwise it doesn't need to be morally justified having said that I say let me give you a very simple illustration a minute or two when I was young I applied for the Indian Air Force 300 applied 10 were going to be selected I came in at number 3 in all of the testing so I phoned home and told my parents I'm in one test was left the psychological test I said that should be a breeze the thing commander are the Churchillian look sitting across the table looked at me and he said beta which is hindi for a son he said you're a good man but I'm going to reject you I said what he said I'm gonna reject you I said may I ask you why sir he said this job is about killing and psychologically are not equipped to kill mmm he stunned me now had I been accepted Rachele think about this had I've been accepted my whole life would have been different I had to commit minimum of 20 years to the Indian Air Force instead that next year I went to Canada all kinds of things happen I'm here in ministry God where are you how just can you be how gracious can you be you have just brought me to shame I don't even know how to tell my parents I've just been flunked after telling them I was in in that microcosm you learn he can be trusted he is just and he is righteous how much more than the macrocosm of this world that's good so this person said why ha why would I follow a God whose people who have done atrocious things in his name I know which one we all want to dig it it's always a difficult question and we get that that question often no one would want to be judged by the things that have been done in the name of their world view that are the worst that's certainly not the case for atheism there were more murders in the 20th century than the 19 before that combined many of those were at the hands of atheism it's no coincidence that Hitler was reading Nietzsche and then he gave copies of Nietzsche to Stalin and Malini's and this is an objection that runs in different directions but if you if you receive this objection from someone I would say the very first thing to do is just offer an apology because oftentimes behind this question and this objection is not just a general discussion of things that have happened but something that the person is dealing with personally and as Christians we can offer in a very real and meaningful way an apology on behalf of our brothers and sisters on behalf of our family when there has been hurt at the hands of the church so I find when I start on this question with someone the very first thing I ask is is this coming from a personal place it very often usually is and when it is that I want to say on behalf of my family will you forgive me for anything that you've been through that has been the fault of my family and would you give us a second chance because I have experienced unhealthy aspects of the church I have also experienced the church at its best and that fullness of life that the Spear promises of love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and generosity faithfulness gentleness and self-control I've seen that in the Christian community as well and would you join me in it that's good why do you believe the Word of God is the Living Word of God and inspired by God and there's a footnote to that one liner helps never judge a philosophy by its abuse a philosophy by its abuse okay why do I believe the Word of God is because I believe the centerpiece of the Word of God is Jesus Christ who he is he is the Living Word when you take the four questions of life origin meaning morality and destiny and you take the tests for truth I want to go into all of them right now and you take the ultimate pursuit of truth the answers of Jesus are the only ones where the particular questions are are answered with corresponding verifiability and when all of the answers are given there is a coherent worldview the centerpiece of this word of god is the god of the word and when you see his answers to the four questions of life that need correspondence and coherence Jesus the only one that meets the test of correspondence and coherence which are the two may their tests for truth I love that I love that well we are out of time even though we'd love to sit here for another hour any questions but I want to thank Robbie and Vince for joining us will you guys come back sometime deal with this again we'd be okay all right I got him on tape saying that pick up a copy of their book Jesus among secular gods and for more information you can visit them online at rzi m dot org as always if you'd like prayer over any area of your life that's why that toll-free number is on the screen there our prayer partners available 24/7 and wonderful prayer partners by the way that are honored to pray with you you can also go today Starcom and click on prayer send in your prayer request we pray over a prayer requests that come from all over the world remember to join the conversation online by leaving us a comment on Facebook or Twitter we'd love to hear your thoughts about today's program thank you so much for watching thank you dr. Zacharias thank you dr. Vitale and we will see you next time bye bye for today [Music] this has been a day star television production you

Channel: The Way Of Life Church

Views: 113,616

Rating: 4.8345399 out of 5

Keywords: the way of life church, groeschel, lifechurch, life.churchtv, church, god's word, sermon, Christian, bible, God, Joni Table Talk, J1680, Ravi Zacharias, Vince Vitale, Secular Gods

Id: YBz2E1jb2Qw

Length: 27min 35sec (1655 seconds)

Published: Sun Oct 01 2017