PS5 Pro '8K Support': Could It Benefit 4K Displays Too?

I'm more than a little surprised by the DF team's incredulous perspective surrounding the quote-unquote 8K performance mode of a PS5 Pro back when the PS4 Pro launched you guys had an excellent video explaining how the revised quote unquote 4K console could greatly benefit users with 1080p TVs with the most obvious win being pristine anti-aliasing via super sampling it's not about 8K TV adoption it's about doing away with the awful jaggies uh well you know talk their thoughts the only gut reaction is there's a lot of ways ways to treat those jaggies for a lot lower GPU cost uh without having to ramp up the pixel count all the way wow that's a good synchronized yeah but not much more to say you know it's it is what it is I don't think 8K TV adoption will be the primary driver of a new console upgrade personally I could be wrong but I just don't see it as yeah I get what the what the poster is saying here the other question uh is suggesting the issue is that there was a reason for 4K uh resolution rendering right it was because there were 4K displays out there in reasonable enough volume that you know it kind of made sense there isn't really that proliferation of 8K screens he's talking about down sampling though he's saying if you have an 8K mode that if you use that mode on a 4K display you should get better image quality but I don't really think that's so I actually think this all ties into just the evolution of image quality in games and and why things have continued to shift and this goes back to I still see some confusion around this if you look at the early days of digital Foundry we're talking about different resolutions on there and everything and it's like there's a small number like if you look at the total number of pixel difference between like say I don't know 640p and 720p right like a PS3 versus 360. it's not a gigantic amount of pixels that that are different between them but when you consider the anti-alias and Technologies of that era and the types of displays in use and like the size of the pixels as they're presented that difference felt huge right yes if you have bad quality AAA or no AAA and you're displaying at that resolution like it looks hugely different it's much much different it's like going from 480p to 720p that's a huge leap but if you go from like 1800p to 2160p most people won't even be able to detect that unless they get close to the screen right but it's not just about the total pixels it's also the anti-aliasing right and the aliacin has continuing to evolve and in 2016 when the PS4 Pro launched TAA had started to proliferate but it wasn't nearly as refined as it is now and it wasn't as common or there was still a lot of FXAA out there and things like that right like post-process AA that stuff does not look that good on its own so actually down sampling from higher res back to 1080p really helped a lot more there I think with the way modern AAA works and all the other techniques that we have for current generation games that you don't really need that as much unless you were natively doing a much higher resolution like if you actually were rendering a full eight K's worth of pixels then yeah you get a nice benefit from that but I think the point is that these consoles won't be able to do that it would be like doing uh you would be upscaling then down scaling again which happens on PS4 Pro right because if you had a 1440p game that was upscaled to 4K and you use the super sampling feature on the pro it double scaled it scaled up to 4K then down to 1080P and you got this sort of double scaling effects which wasn't ideal exactly it didn't always look that great in the end it actually impacted the clarity on things it kind of blurred out the image a little bit more it wasn't as uh much of a home run as you might think and because of that I don't think this would make a huge difference only in select cases like something like like how we have The Tourist which already does this basically which is an 8K 60 game right that down samples from native 8K to 4K and yeah you get the benefits of that big time but that's also a game that didn't really use anti-aliasing and it's a very simple designs and like harsh structures and edges that really benefits from it but most other games I don't think you'd see a huge difference yeah it's an interesting idea I mean it's all going to depend on what this uh assuming is actually real of course what this mystery 8K mode performance mode is actually going to take another thing as Tom points out is the GPU resources required now um there is the idea that um it could yeah it could be using a similar sort of technique as dlss and the issue there is that dlss has its own computational cost and dlss also that the scale of that cost Rises with the output resolution so if the output resolution is 8k then that's going to be quite significant but actually you know we might as well continue this this discussion into the second question from darjaco another happy half Fortnight gents uh naturally I think the biggest news in the last week or so has been the rumored PS5 Pro specs that look thoroughly sensible slash realistic eagle-eyed spec inspectors will have noticed the mention of a quote unquote custom AI accelerator given the history of the PS4's checkerboard rendering system I wonder if you could speculate on what an AI accelerated checkerboard implementation could look like could it use motion vectors to reduce shimming and fast moving C's I feel as though certi will be working on some kind of AI secret source and what and wonder what kind of thing you think and wonder what kind of thing you think seems most likely I'm just imagining Mark Cerny himself sitting in some kind of like isolated laboratory working on that exact thing just just certainly by himself yeah not not the team of Engineers no just certainly yeah I think well he he is the sister of Architects he is you know he leads the projects but it is a team effort obviously well I mean I can't see this could be just the limitations I mean you know when we go back to 2016 and the PS4 Pro checkerboarding was in its infancy but it was a technique that was known uh that was developed the concepts though that it was um built into Hardware does suggest that Surly and his team were looking at it very very early though right you know the fact that they baked it into Hardware so I'm wondering where they go from here I mean the most likely solution would be some kind of um offshoot or derivative of dlss right because that's basically how all of the other upscalers work they use the same inputs essentially they use the same sort of masking techniques can you could you could you imagine any other sort of technique that that seems extremely feasible I think it's just we've seen dlss continue to improve so much since these consoles have launched like that's clearly where we're going right so it would behoove them to make a hardware accelerated function that sort of tries to do something similar that's better more accurate faster than software-based fsr2 right so uh this absolutely would make a ton of sense if they would pour time into creating custom silicon to handle these tasks and Hardware because then yeah you could actually get these higher resolutions for a much lower cost through reconstruction and it would potentially produce results far superior to fsr2 by itself yeah agreed it's all a matter of working smarter than harder with the just a simple GPU pump you know well this raises a question that occurred a couple of weeks ago with the launch of Remnant 2 where the developers were saying well actually you really should be using upscaling with this game because we know it's heavy but we are planning to optimize um I think the issue there is that um it's going to take some time particularly in the PC space for people to understand that new features Cutting Edge features come at a cost and therefore to mitigate that cost you do need to use upscaling nobody is questioning RTX sorry cyberpunk 2077 RT overdrivers requiring DLS S3 to be to be actually performant right because it's the ultimate category you know you expect that there's got to be some mitigation in place but similarly you know we was kind of moving into early territory pioneering territory with Unreal Engine five we're starting to see these next-gen features actually deployed and it's going to take time for those features to be yeah it's going to take time for those features to be fully optimal and progress is being made but the games we're seeing today are being made on the Unreal Engine 5 of yesterday uh so yeah there's a certain degree of lag in there interestingly uh when we were talking to nixies about uh our Nexus about the ratchet Port one of them noted that they actually subscribed to a subreddit that is focused on uh like I think it's like ftaa is what it's called you know if you extrapolate from there and it's a group of people that have gathered together to profess their dislike of TAA they don't like modern TAA they want their raw pixels and Nexus actually does cater to them they very specifically in Ratchet include an option to disable all ta8 no ta at all you can just get completely raw pixels you can also run it with smaa if you want which is you know post a a and it's specifically because there is this subset of Gamers that just want these Ultra raw pixels and what none of the extra blur or anything associated with TAA uh and it's interesting that they will probably never accept stuff like dlss right so it's kind of an uphill battle and I can see why you get this rise out of a certain PC Gamers where like they want the option to be able to turn all of that off and I guess Remnant kind I don't know if you can actually disable TAA and Remnant though I think that is actually forced on but uh reconstruction is optional um okay I'm not really sure how to take that it's just it's it's more just like you know when you're when you're building PC stuff they're really sensitive to those types of options and you really need to Target this wide audience to make everyone happy but I guess in the console space it's not really applicable so well there's this really interesting dichotomy in the PC space which is that you get all of the forward-looking features first but there's usually a you know a sort of a minority of people who are vocally against any sort of progression in rendering technique like Ray tracing like rage facing like reconstruction you know basically you know the momentum for those features is Unstoppable they're going to be happening we kind of saw that right from day one when a lot of creators were uh sort of saying it was a disaster that was never going to gain traction I mean the bottom line developers want to produce better looking games they want to embrace these new features and that's why you know Ray tracing has taken off even and I'm kind of surprised to see that it has taken off in consoles like PlayStation 5 and series X when arguably the horsepower isn't really there to to get the job done but just barely there yeah you just see games like ratchet for example and Marvel Spider-Man where actually you can get a really good presentation Metro Exodus I mean 60 FPS with rtgi on those consoles that's that's remarkable and this is 60fps in Spider-Man as well yeah yeah this is all just sheer will from the developers to make these features actually work for them because the win is there right you know it's definitely oh let's not forget uh do maternal also has a really good retreating mode it's super performant so yeah it's pretty interesting uh do maternal you don't actually get the main benefit of the ray tracing until you know playing the first level because the first level isn't oh yeah yeah because it's already reflection most of the first level is very like stones and bricks and not a lot of reflective materials but then after that there's a ton of reflective materials it looks awesome

Channel: DF Clips

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Length: 12min 41sec (761 seconds)

Published: Mon Aug 14 2023