Plato's Phaedo (58)

this evening the Phaedo Plato's Phaedo of all the dialogues this is the dialogue that has created the most difficulty for a community of scholars to deal with than all the other dialogues I presented two papers one at a college and major thesis I presented it caused so much disturbance there that I won't finish the story next time was at an international conference Plato second annual conference and I gave a paper on the photo and I was urged by one of the speakers there to forward it to a major journal and they held it and they held it and finally they sent back a rejection and I asked of course why it was rejected and so I have a warning I must give you I have it in print and ham writing along the side of this page and it said if Pierre Grimes is right about his understanding of the Phaedo there's two thousand years of Western scholarship that is just simply wrong so let me give you a view I've warned you this is the heretical side of wisdom we are going to tie together for ideas most difficult one is the philosopher or as he calls it the true philosopher death wisdom your mortality now as I proceed through this I'm going to take you through as it were the dialogue itself I've selected many of the key quotes that we'll explore this notion and that's where we're going so after do warning we can begin therefore I've sit down when I consider the great paradoxes now there's one well this is a better one all right five of them beginning of the dialogue Socrates this is of course the death scene this is the last day of his life he's in the jail he's waiting the hemlock that's the sentence because he violated the laws of Athens and this is his punishment so he has his friends over for the last day and he's engaging in the discussion and the first point he makes is to a poet evidence and he tells evidence through this spokesman he says look I'd like you to give him the message for me and that is if he's wise to come after me as quickly as she come well everyone's upset at that thought I mean what a nice greeting and wouldn't want a nice thing to say to someone drop dead come after me as quickly as you can that's as good heavy as death scene now we have to make sense of this and what waited Socrates I mean that if you're was AXI notion of wisdom if wisdom is playing a role in your your psyche then you better come after me as quickly as you can for that is wise and he adds to it and is it so will every man who has any worthy interest in philosophy and at this point he's going to separate philosophy the every way everyday of thinking of it to his or the true philosophy so if you have an interest in philosophy the next time you meet another philosopher just say drop dead and their response should be I'm trying we have to make sense of that joke he says the reason why anyone were they aware the interest in philosophy should follow me as fast or as quickly as possible it's because when dead we know the dead attain the greatest blessings who those who have a worthy interest in philosophy and not a paradox so they're five then he pulls it together and he says look here is really essential that you understand that this idea of death is not understood and of course two of the people in the dialogue don't understand it thank goodness so he has to explain it so this is his statement he calls them the many the many the many they do not know in what way I wrote it in twice right and what way the real philosophers desire dev and they don't know in what way they deserve death and they don't know what kind of death it is so at the end of this we should go back and see whether or not we can understand why real or true philosophers desire death deserve it and then we have to figure out what kind of death it is now liquor that cure is because normally people think there's only one kind of death is no no no no no we have to know what kind of death therefore there has to be several different concepts or ideas of death therefore he then takes a bold statement make it clear for the rest of the dialogue what he means by death and death is he puts it death is the separation of the soul from the body all right and here in this beautiful picture all right your lives and here are some daisies being pushed up and at that moment there should be separation of the soul from the body so death is the separation of soul from the body one now he makes another distinction which is important to him but the state of being dead Hey the state of being dead it's not the same thing as death the state of being dead is when the body separates from the soul and exists alone by itself when the soul separates from the body and exists alone by itself and therefore all right there is a separation and a continuous separation each alone by itself each alone by itself each alone by itself that therefore is the state of being dead that's much different than death that's the state of being dead so the separation would be the process I don't know no no they're trying to understand the distinction well we only made one which is why you're having a problem that's right we only covered this one so you should be puzzled both what's being said and the difference between the two yeah you should be yourself young it should be puzzled therefore you should have the paradox thank you got the paragraph so we've achieved the first level of meaning now go back what do we have to find one why anyone who is wise will go as fast as they can as quickly as they can after Socrates right and so will any man has a worthy interest in philosophy and what can be expected when dead they'll attain the greatest blessings and this is something the many do not know one two three desire deserve and kind all right keep them together all right that's right desire deserve and what kind of death it is all right now let's see whether we can unpack the paradox and it's a lovely one now all of these if you have an interest in it later I can give you the page sightings all of the material I'm putting up today as I always do comes out of the text these are all quotes from the text so first this is look here there's a separation now we're taking the second I put me the first one I'm at this is number two the first is the separation right of the soul from the body it's liquor when you are withdrawing from the pleasures of the body that's a separation of the soul from the body that's an ethical that's an ethical or you may just want to pull it off for a while alright so in any case this is an ethical equally well when a person's concern for the body and everything that is attached to it I'd especially clothes and things of that nature physical concerns when you turn away from the bodies and the interest in the body maintaining closed shoes he mentions a great number of things like that that's not necessarily ethical as much as it is withdrawing from all the things that one desires for the body so that's a kind of death that's a separation of the interests of the soul from the volume now he shifts he says when there is a search for knowledge and wisdom in thought and thought prices you think best when there is a separation from the soul from the body at such times when you're concentrating on something that you want to do your best to try to master some issue in philosophy all the intrusions that the body makes during such studies is an interruption and therefore when you really want to get into your studies you want to be removed as much as you can from the body and that is a kind of separation of soul from the body so each of these then is a interesting way to look at the idea of debt goes back to Anu Zoe's looker the reason we have to separate from the soul from the body is because you know the things that most interest does which is justice beauty and the good these cannot be seen with the eye they can't be seen and therefore to search for them in any way that depends upon the senses is very foolish and therefore if they are to be seen they must not be seeing I mean it can't be seen through the eyes and therefore any effort to use the senses would be foolish in therefore one must withdraw from the interest in the census in the pursuit of justice beauty and the good thought D annoyance so this too is a separation this is a death now there's a higher kind of thought which is understanding the pursuing thought itself doesn't necessarily mean that you're understanding understanding or DN OA is when you're seeking for the reasons why the noblest views you have Beauty justice and good are indeed true that's understanding so when you can go for the reasons why youth whatever you think about Beauty justice and the good and these are of course as you know the highest terms in Greek philosophy beauty and experience into the nature of beauty or beauty itself as we've talked about beauty in itself by itself with itself in itself by itself that means it's on mixed pure and with itself and nothing else this experience therefore is an experience of the nature of ultimate reality because the experience is magnificently beautiful but one one recognizes in that beauty that one has come in contact with in fact a very profound vision which is beautiful of reality now that's beauty and justice as we've talked about it before just to keep us together is when everything is balanced and perfect harmony for a man and the universe if you can see that that's justice that means therefore it is an intelligible and intelligible caring universe or we should call it a cosmos because anytime we talk about the universe being intelligible we mean cosmos rather than universe and the good idea that good of course is beyond both in both dignity and power and that's called the final ultimate term therefore it deserves the time the good and sometimes it's called the one so when one now is wanting to understand why these things can be said about beauty about reality about just as being the intelligible caring cosmos and why therefore everything fits together into a harmony if one can understand the reasons for that and understand why the idea of the highest term is the good or the one if you can put that reasons into that that's d annoying that's understanding that's understand that's DNR okay it's so different from what we mean by understanding that I don't mean to be pedantic in any way but I do think that it's worthwhile preserving the Greek word for it dia is through NOAA news it's through the highest part of the mine well then looker if that's the case then it may be that if the only way you can reach that is a final separation of the soul from the body then you must probably then wait until you drop dead and then at this moment perhaps you can then catch a vision of it well maybe it can't be acquired at all or it can only be acquired when you drop dead this is his conclusion so let's take a look what he means by dead in the condition for it now they said but you know what he said when a person dies now he goes through this curious process of death he says I think when you're pure when the mind is pure when one is pure the soul is pure then he said I think it's it's possible here when you talk about being pure that the pure shall know ourselves and shall know that which is pure well what does that mean when pure then you will be with the pure then you'll be with what's pure if you are pure purify the mind then you will be with the pure and if you are with the pure then you shall know ourselves all that is pure and you said ah that's the truth that's the truth but what does he mean by that purification well one is pure then your with the pure okay that may follow and yes and then we shall know of ourselves all that is pure whatever that might be so we have to find out what that would be so that's another paradox sneaking in here as well as the whole idea of what a purification is well occur you know hope exists for every man who thinks his mind has been purified and maimed ready to in fact separate and then discover the very nature of what is pure and since the person then would be purified or gone through a purification then he'll be ready for an interesting state of mind in the state of mind as does let's take a look at what he says about this alright now I'm going to read and draw because I'm very good at drawing as you can tell I've studied Anatomy length as you can see in this nude figure here and does not purification consist in this which has been mentioned long ago in our discourse in separating two words now separation and release watch the way he uses them in separating as far as possible the soul from the body well then how do you do that right it's a separation of the soul from the body and does not purification consist in this which has been mentioned long ago in our discourse in separating as far as possible the soul from the body and teaching here we come out and teaching and teaching the soul the habit of collecting and bringing itself together right the habit of collecting and bringing have it teaching the soul the habit of collecting and bringing itself together from from all parts of the body look I got to collect it from all parts of the body and living so far as it can both now as well as hereafter both now as well as hereafter as well as Hereafter alone by itself freed from the body as if from fetters so what do you have to do you have to teach the soul the habit of collecting and bringing itself together from all parts of the body and living as far as they can both now in hereafter alone by itself separated from the body both now as well as Hereafter this is what we call death this is what we call death is it not a release you're releasing it and you're separating it from the body and we hold true philosophers and they alone are always most eager to release the soul and just this the release and the separation of the soul from the body is their study is that not this is the object of philosophy this is philosophy this is philosophy no that's really an interesting position you say because one it as soon as you say that in my great drawing here I can make it again the assumption as you seen that the soul is a living it is a living vital matter of fact soul in the group and homer soul and breath of the same your breath your vitality that's your soul and it permeates the body wherever the body is that's where your life is that's where your soul is extended therefore if you want to bring together the soul from all parts of the body in some way you are then withdrawing it from all parts of the body so it can live alone by itself independent now big question oh so what what is it see if it can pull that off so what that's curious you can go home and tell your mother your father hey you know I just drop dead oh that's nice good now can you go on play basketball so then the question is when separated from the soul from the body what is it that is encountered all right what is it that is encountered what is it that's encountered and how does that relate to philosophy this is a yogurt this is a yoga it's a habit teaching the soul the habit of collecting itself enjoying himself now he uses the term of true philosophers in several ways one they alone are always most eager to release the soul and just this the release of the separation of the soul from the body this is their study that's what it is and that's why in great places of learning like UCI and state California that's a State University of Long Beach in LA that's what they study they bring people together and they teach them how to take soul flights it's a very popular course next true philosophers practice dying dying processes dying and death the separation is less terrible to them to any other man for true philosophers they will find pure wisdom nowhere else but in this other world which is possible to experience both now and Hereafter so what I need has a couple of good quotes we need to see what it's like when it departs what it encounters and how that is related to philosophy that's one of our primary goals all right that's what we want to see what it encounters we have to tie it in with wisdom and what's interesting about this of course before we go into wisdom and the experience I'd like you to bring you to see how wisdom and mystics fit together and I happen to have a couple of good quotes for you and I think I'll read them for you see this is mysticism this is the yogic gains of yoga meditation that kind of stuff now he's going to take an interesting jump here and it's on this point with wisdom right now he's going to touch on something he doesn't deal with it too much in this dialogue he touches on it he deals much more in the Republic with it but I would like to bring it up and push I was talking about the virtues talking about the virtues and he says my dears simius I suspect this is not the right way to purchase virtue by exchanging pleasures for pleasures and pains for pains and fear for fear greater for less as if they were clients but the only right coinage the only right coinage for which all these things must be exchanged and by means of and with which all these things are bought and sold is wisdom for courage and self-restraint and justice and ensure true virtue exists only with wisdom I'm skipping a little bit but truth is in fact a purification from all these things and self-restraint and justice and courage and wisdom itself are a kind of purification it's a purification that's what was des ministres purification haha curious notion and I fancy that those men to establish the mysteries were not unenlightened but in reality he had a hidden meaning when they said long ago that whoever goes uninitiated and unsanctified to the other world will lie in the mire but he arrives there initiated and purified will dwell with the gods for as they say in the mysteries the thyristors are many but the Mystics few and these mystics are I believe those who have been true philosophers and I in my life so far as I could lift nothing undone and have striven in every way to make myself one of them well now we want to go back right so wisdom is a purification wisdom is a purification he calls himself a mystic he said he's things left nothing undone in his efforts to try to become them and to match them and that's what a true philosopher is well what is it then when the soul is able to inquire and explore alone by itself that's where we are that's what we need so let's take a look I'm at seventy-nine d for those of you who want to follow it when the soul then inquires alone by itself it departs into the realm of the pure everlasting the immortal and the changeless and being akin to these there's a kinship akin to these it dwells alway it dwells always with them whenever it is by itself and is not hindered and it has rest from its wanderings and remains always the same then it remains always the same unchanging with the changeless since it has since it is in communion with it right since it's in communion therefore it's participating in this state of the soul the state of the soul because it's a state of the soul when separated from soul from the body that's wisdom that's wisdom that's wisdom now I'm jumping now to 81 this is 79 this is 81 81 a it goes back and he pulls this together but the sole the invisible which departs into another place which is light itself noble pure invisible to the realm to the realm of the God of the other world and truth to the good and wise God whether if God will my soul is soon to go in this soul which has such qualities in such a nature straightway and scattered and destroyed when its departs from the body as most men say far from it CDs and simians but the truth is much rather this if 50 parts pure dragging with it nothing of the body because there never willingly associated with the body in life but avoided it and gathered itself into itself alone since this has always been its constant study but this means nothing else then that had pursued philosophy aright and really practice being in a state of death where is not this the practice of death well then if it's in such a condition right it goes away into that which is like itself into the invisible divine immortal and wise and when it arrives there it is happy and freed from the error in folly and fear and the fierce loves of all the other human ills and lives in truth through all right through all after time with the gods then if it is in such a condition goes away into that which is it is like itself into the invisible divine and immortal so it goes into the DOE invisible the divine and the immortal which is akin to it experiences it if that's akin to it then the soul is immortal and through such experiences can reach that room which in the Greek world is the realm of the god the realm of the divine and the immortal and that's the practice of death these are the subjects we wanted to cover the true philosopher the one who can pull this stunt off if he's able to pull that activity off that practice that's the experience of death what he encounters that's called wisdom and experiencing that wisdom it's nothing other than experiencing the divine and the immortal and therefore if the soul is akin to that if therefore can partake in that way mortality back now to our paradoxes if the we can say that is it not likely that the wise will come after him as quickly as they can and so will any man who has any worthy interest in philosophy as he understands it and when dead will they not a chain tain the greatest blessings would you not agree that many don't understand why dream philosophers or true philosophers desire death they don't understand why they deserve it since they practice and gone through so much nor do they know what kind of depth it is because that's certainly a different idea of death therefore we can go back and say now we understand this part that we left out earlier and filled it in that death is the separation of the soul from the body we can separate it from the state of being dead and therefore the goal of a philosopher is not to experience the state of being dead but the experience of the separation of the soul from the body so thank you let's have some questions and play for a while good good game perhaps if your body remained alone by itself without the soul I imagine you wouldn't go back into it is that right thank you and so long as it remains alone without a soul that's likely then to disintegrate even more yeah would you not say you're only alive when the soul is in the body not alone by itself Oh what part didn't you understand I do the same thing if you're asking me of course I'll say no you don't want to ask me that you want to see whether you can preserve what difficulty I have in same difference let's do it together you drop dead alright would you agree they're said to be a separation and then this is alone by itself and this remains alone by itself exists alone by itself exists alone by itself how would you describe how would you describe that that this process that's true but here there is a separation and a release is it not yeah there's a separation and the soul is released from the body that kind of not then so this is when the physical body yeah the state of being dead that's right both here as well as here after that's fine that's why he put it in what you needed no no obviously is not condoning the help of experience he's not condoning with the help of experience I mean even though he under these circumstances is ready to take a hemlock and kill himself but it is only because he is a true philosopher and has practiced all these things before well the hemlock is service right but I'm trying to understand mm-hmm it's kind of outside us and yet within tonight's lecture is what is the difference between Socrates be ready to not defend himself and hence from one angle committing suicide you could say for a pseudo philosophical reason or what to them was true philosophy did the same type of separation of the body and the soul bless them their souls are in that you are for going wherever they're going to yes but they don't expect to come back right they don't expect to come out this is not a training this is not a discipline to try to separate this is a we call it today those people have near-death experiences and will and according to Euston Smith and some others those that have had good acid trips might we might go through something similar right okay yeah well then that's the separation that's not this that's not the hemlock yeah what I did say was it this this is not like this applaud this physical group this is let's call this dropping down you don't need much practice for that since I've had that separation I've never been scared of talking that oh yeah of course no Kurt when before I was yeah oh yeah that's a natural consequence so long as you know there's a higher reality than the everyday one that you walk through you're no longer worried about this being wall there is yeah that's true yeah sure I haven't the faintest I mean in terms of which one was written first and second okay I have never paid any attention to it I know there are many arguments that try to date the early the middle and the late dial arms yeah the point might be better yeah Oh theoretically theoretically this comes after that's right because in the symposium there's no evidence that Socrates ever experienced it that's right but here he's talking for his personal long yeah it's quite true that's why I like it whether they whether historically can be defined for a second or third theoretically this should come in yeah one two sir I think reference made to this another times one of those for example it was called prayer of st. Francis something like it is to forgiving that one is forgiven No the key the key for me is whether or not it's possible to experience it now before you drop dead no and if it is possible than for these people who have taken that kind of trip or journey Socrates calls it a journey the crowd the crisis would be that then they no longer need faith they know right they don't have to then believe that there's this aura that they've experienced it ring so if it would I think that's true by the way I think my sister a cart could be cited among that group and of course at different times in church's history those people had difficulties with the orthodoxy including Saint Francis but I think it's just to make sure that I think this kind of experience is transcultural and transcultural in the sense of being over time as well and it is not the exclusive property of any particular group though some civilizations or cultures explore it in more and more detail than others necessarily like I think on the Tibetan you get this much much much stronger and much more detailed you get it clearly much more clearly in China strong when you know with the the additional point that for Socrates this has been a practice he's been engaged in for a long period of time and it's the middle though I'm not saying anything against what you just said I think you're quite right that a good way to aware get much more intense about life as to realize you're going to drop dead shortly no no it hopes when the body dies and the defense book of does there are three of planes they call the chick I the China and the sit ba Bardot plan Bob are Govardhan word plaintiff the same and at the moment of death depending upon the degree to which a person has practiced meditation they can extend that that light experience or that chick eyes state and for some people who never even thought of it or have never been exposed to philosophy according to providin because it allows only the twinkling of an eye so that's relatively short but the Tibetan Book of the Dead is a funerary work that as you probably know it's read into the person at the time of their death for 49 days especially the first three days intensely and it's to awaken it's to awaken the departed soul to the fact that they are dead and to try to get them to turn around regardless of which one of these Bardot's they are in to go back to this state and experience that if so then they either get off the wheel of life or they get a much better reincarnation so yes talk about what one is to do after experiencing this don't ya the clearest the clearest exploration of that if you if you can take what we're describing here as the as analogous to the allegory of the cave in the upper world and if you take this highest experience of wisdom to be equivalent to seeing the nature of the Sun in its own place in the upper world and freed from the false beliefs about the nature of the self and reality if you take that to be analogous than I can suggest something so if you accept that idea the see the allegory of the cave is really the allegory of the cave and the upper world because once this is seen then according to the allegory that came therefore he must then descend once more only this time he voluntarily goes into that world and he must take his place among the prisoners and play out his role of teacher and that's the second part of the allegory of the cave mural room it's a magnificent allegory it runs for some 12 full pages and if you're interested in that the most interesting thing about it is his evaluation of what it is like to be here and he says you know when the philosopher returns to that he then quotes homer and when Odysseus was in the Land of the Dead he meets Achilles and he says to Achilles you know what's an Achilles says you know I would much prefer to be the poorest slave to a landless master than the master of all the dead that lie here well that's the quote that Socrates uses to describe the State of Mind of the philosopher having to return into the underworld you know if it was he would rather be there mmm-hmm but he takes this on as a duty but he makes an interesting statement about it he says that's a duty only if society and the state in any way contributed to his development and nurture so it's conditional so this is a kind of a bodhisattva image out of buddhism but if the only condition was bodhisattva an image there is if in some way the state helped and supplied you with some principles of your own growth and nurture in which case it's a payback but if not not only troubled man kalui was he was also known for lying and so we couldn't tell what he was doing but Burke you know the great work on cosmic consciousness he came to that experience he was reading poetry one night with some friends and he walked away I walked down the street in a rather good state and bammo he got a full enlightenment experience knocked him out right so it is possible to enter into the state of wisdom without yoga without all of this depending upon unknown factors the state or does the state help but I'm asking is it you sit it's your duty to return yes the state only if this state help and I'm saying I don't think it's possible since we all learn from other human being alive say wait a minute I think we are an estate helping one another yes they're possible you know there had a piece of poetry there's something which is going to take you out okay okay then you would be saying that the Society of people he came together helped create the conditions for the appearance and therefore he chuckled it no okay maybe would you know yeah well that's that's um that's certainly worth saying and I wouldn't deny that whatever set of conditions helped produce that itself oh yeah yeah well as a matter of fact endless and the Republic Socrates points out that they are people in his group that he knew of who did reach that state and they have nothing to do with the state and they wanted he calls those people those who think of themselves and think of themselves as living in the aisles of the Blessed experiencing that wonderous vision and they have nothing to do with the state so in that case that would be someone who let the bird out yeah yeah that's it your friend take on it yes imagine he supposes there's a demonic element in the universe to which it's not yet yeah which is not present here yeah well it isn't at least it is none that I want a platonic world yeah compensatory in that sense you know there's certain societies that and subscribe if someone has these profound experiences they should return with something even a dance step would be good in a dancing culture you know so on yeah well some people haven't enjoyed dancing and dancing culture a shamanic healing young especially healing and prophecies yeah that's impetus to one reason one you have to get back to the cave is the fact that it good to just the beautiful it's perfect so there is a from that mindset there is no need for any it's everlasting that it is unchangeable there is no need for it to change anything I mean maybe I don't know which is which whether it's unchangeable because it it is perfect either way that is a unit universe which is not a time if you want to act on the universe so have to get back into the cave because that's the only universe which is imperfect then needs perfection that makes sense well in the Republic Socrates is anticipating as where his own death because he says you know that's a risk and to the degree to which you differ but and function differently you run the risk of hostility from your followers and may in the end put you to death so yeah there's a there's the ethical drama and the political social religious drama yeah oh that's magnificent tanka really I think that's something of someone who has skill and reading Tonka's and I don't I have a talk of my own agent sanctuary department now this is Mountain this is that's manager that's the tonka that's mounted along here as I said I would like to be able to tell you but I don't there's the tree of enlightenment so it's a magnificent we should have someone come in and give us a talk on Tom Cruise I have one I'd like them to look at you know I don't think they're what you're asking is whether or not I presume you're asking whether or not this experience can be had without the purification or what's going to happen if they don't have the purification and they dropped it well there are many people who have tried the drug rod and I've had you know terrible experiences and magnificent experiences and perhaps you can say that people I weren't ready for this kind of experience should avoid it why do you asking about when the body dies what happens if you're not purified oh oh I don't talk about the mind partner what is the experience for the separation okay physically dropping doing it without being well according to according to the Phaedo in the end there's a whole mess and in that myth they talk about what it's like for period people who do experience dropping dead without the purification and what they carry with them is their view of reality and you know people have rather strange views of reality and that's what they act out without the body no this separation now this is the journey of the soul into the next world and therefore if there are all kinds of beliefs in there about how terrible it is and how demonic it is then that's what they face they face the contents of their own mind that's what you take with you according to the photo you take it and tell your your nurture what you've nurtured and developed that's what you take with you so be careful what you put in your head you may experience and I don't know what all of these great phones are doing to people that is probably polluting the mind there's probably but I think it's polluting the moment no it's probably not as bad as what some people get in an average communications cloud you know everything is relative nothing there's nothing to anything you know the times one of the theories of mantra yoga is the fact that the whole practice you're doing is that if you can have the name of your God whatever name your mantra on your mind at the moment of death that will cause the release and you're doing all the practices no more than years of repeating it so that you don't forget that that moment of separation no if you can keep it with you know the vision of wrong or whoever Krishna or whatever then at that moment you go into that state so even if you have a very pure notion of a God or mantra to the degree that you have these other notions in your head then you're carrying a loft a very fine idea with a baggage of these irreconcilable notions and I presume a person then would have to experience what that's like to have such a duality and in the Tibetan Book of the Dead which I always recommend that's the very story that takes place in this bar goes because as one faces the contents of one's own one's mind one goes through each one of these three Bardot's until they finally are reincarnated no that's a fine story but then on to do you know no but I know that that took place with mark Ananda yeah that's called the Maha Samadhi don't go out at the dropping dead at the same time pulling off a samadhi experience you know I mean if you have nothing else to do when you drop dead yes that's symposium the Phaedrus the Republic the Parmenides it's really plato's really a work that combines all of those dialogues where you can see it much more clearly apart from this magnificent literary form that he uses and he uses with such skill and artistry is plutinos what Thainess goes into it much more so well China's has the same metaphysics as Plato of course right he has the one or the good intelligent soul and his whole writing is to explain that very thing how to go through this or what it takes the disciplines and book for the i6 book for deals with the whole process of the soul and he does much of what Plato does but he puts in much more details and he and also metaphysics and the play tonic tradition there's a split there's a major split between Plato Latinas and then I am Lucas who introduces a different stage of thought and their major differences precisely on this issue that we're on tonight see here's the problem see if I can give it to let this line represent the stages that the soul goes through until it reaches that point that we were talking about where experience is the nature of wisdom to to make that claim means what is it that the soul is what's the soul if the soul can experience that directly in itself by its own then what's the difference between the soul and wisdom for Plato as we were looking at tonight there isn't anything in plutinos there isn't any porphyry wants to come in and say and then the people that follow for free including profilers Damascus Cyrenius what saying crystianna's they want to say that there is a fundamental difference between the soul and wisdom and the intelligible is a fundamental difference that you can come as close as you please but you can't make it they're limited I have that you reach it asymptotically but you never really get there because they want to say there's a fundamental difference between the souls essence and its power and its activity of what we're talking about here is there is an activity of the soul right there's an activity of the soul this is an activity of the soul for that to take place there must be some power that the soul must possess and if there is a power sometimes this is called the Faculty by the way but it's really Dunamis its power then if it can do that then you must be able to say something about the nature of the souls the substance of the soul or the essence of the soul and for this to be said means that for something and for anything at all that can turn upon itself and see its own nature that very thing can't be a physical thing because only physical things can touch at one point right pretzels can touch it a couple of points but not every point upon every point can touch and therefore if this is a turning about of the soul upon itself since the soul is a state of wisdom then that can be done only by something that is not physical and therefore the nature of the soul must not be physical at all but must be incorporeal and if it can do that this ability to turn upon itself is called its basic nature or being is Lucia or sometimes translated as essence what is essence mean when used correctly it means that power and the soul that can turn upon itself to know itself so there's a split and the Platonic tradition between those who think that the essence of the soul the essence of the soul is the same as being where as I am because as I said before and others who follow them want to deny that want to say it just approaches it as close as you please that kind of stuff that like it epsilon limit and mathematics so that's normal would you say that I am Lucas and afterwards has a more developed understanding of the soul well too big of a difference well see the basic difference is that for people like iamblichus and pro colas whenever you make a logical distinction whenever you make a logical distinction it parallels an ontological distinction so that if I can make these distinctions and thought well there must be something in the nature of reality that corresponds to them so whatever I then experience in the realm of thought then that must be true about the nature of reality that's taking logical distinctions as a basis for ontological distinction proculis pregnant Latinas clearly plutinos the same not occur that's not matter it's what you encounter in your highest experience that you must use as a basis for making distinctions in ontology ontology is a fancy word by the way excuse me ontology is a fancy word for the study of being on toes from the Greek right so the study of being is ontology so one person is going with thought confident that with thought you make these distinctions in these distinctions most mirror ontological distinctions in being Latinas saying well I'll tell you I just had a trip and a journey of the soul separating from the body has happened often let me tell you what I encountered then he makes his distinctions in terms of his experienced on terms of his law even though they both have experience they both have thought there's a priority of one over the other and each thinker so for proculis he's going to make he's here right he's here though they obviously have a great value to experience but a much greater regard for experiences of Latinas and Plato rather than then logical and that separates them so the best thing to do is to make up your mind to read both okay thank you for joining you

Channel: PostNothingness

Views: 5,065

Rating: 4.8723402 out of 5

Keywords: Philosophy

Id: OZnaMW-W9UE

Length: 76min 21sec (4581 seconds)

Published: Wed Jan 21 2015