Plato's Timaeus (63)

while this evening we're going to do that the time is in a different way because I think I want to talk first about the fact that except for specialists very few people get until the time is because the time is is a cosmology and a cosmology is a theory about how the universe was generated well when you consider that we're talking about fourth century BC or fifth century BC physics trying to explain how the universe was generated you can certainly see why modern we prefer to go into science and modern science to try to explain how the universe was generated since obviously we have a greater scope of knowledge in terms of physics and chemistry and all the other sciences that can give an account to how the universe was generated it's one of the major concerns of physicist and theoretical physicists today so therefore the idea of Plato's time is is for the most part ignored now there's also in the time is some metaphysics so there's also a metaphysics in it and you have a universe it's being generated and the generations based upon certain metaphysical principles obviously it's not going to have too much currency in today's world we don't think that way well behind the cosmology is also a theology that is to say there's a God in the time is that in fact brings about the cosmology or the universe and equally well the kind of God depicted and the time is while it has certain interesting aspects there are many people today that aren't too concerned with theology either and here for a good number of reasons it can be ignored or forgotten so why should we now return to this well let me propose a curious thing what if Plato is only secondarily interested in how the universe was generated and what he's really interested in why it was generated not how but why suppose further that his goal is not just the generation of the universe but suppose his goal is to explain how man can be in a universe in which he can know himself and the inverse and in knowing both and in knowing follows and isolating the factors that brought that knowing and made that knowing possible he can then develop a certain set of principles which can be used not only to explain how he can know himself in the universe but how the set of principles can be said to be the primary principles for creation itself or the cosmology later idiom suppose Plato is not just exploring how the universe was generated but why and suppose then that why what he really seeks to explain is how it is that man can be in a universe in which he knows himself and can know himself and the universe and in knowing that recognize there a certain set of principles prior principles which can be used and as a set of principles that can explain how metaphysically the universe can be creative not physically but metaphysically how the universe can be created therefore it's an entirely different kind of cosmology I'm now going to explore what is it we're not going to be talking about how the physical universe came into existence that's only secondary what we want to see is that set of principles which ones recognize can be used to explain the conditions necessary for the universe to come into existence the conditions not the clauses the conditions for the universe being generated all now when you try to explain the conditions for something they're getting behind the causes because the cause of a fire or lighting a match or the flame igniting is different than the conditions for that fire being ignited right you have to have oxygen you have to have a supply of fuel and etc etc right so the conditions always prior to the cause let's go further suppose we decide then that these conditions explaining these conditions for the universe from a set of principles can be understood as the first principles in a metaphysics well if that's the case then you're going to have any metaphysics that's going to rest on a set of principles which are going to be the conditions for explaining how the universe was generated but more importantly it's going to be the same set of principles it's going to explain how it is you're in a universe where you can owe yourself as well as universe we could really do this in another way you see we could take the time it's in front of us and we could take your scissors and cut out everything in the time is that deals with how the physical universe is generated just cut it off then we'd have two piles have a stack of material dealing with the physical generation of the universe and something else but something else happens to be those set of principles which are metaphysical which can account for how man can know himself with universe that's what we would have now thank goodness someone has already done this now therefore we don't have to start by inventing the metaphysical wheel now proculis did a commentary on plato's time is and let me say something about it first for many years it was very difficult to get coconuts because the only person who had been translating his works was Thomas Taylor back in the very early 19th century 1805 and thereabout and therefore when those of us wanted to study propolis would try to get a copy of Thomas Taylor's commentary and then run down to some photoshop and make copies of it and therefore we would have these big tomes thick and ponderous tomes of Plato's commentaries by propos and I brought there's a two volume set of it and this is the first this is why philosophers invariably are strong build up their bodies because this is volume two commentaries of Pro Plus on Plato's time is and as you can see only one page is printed in that line represents the cutting edge of the Xerox machine right so this the way now it's out now in a uniform edition and you can now buy it and by heavens you're way ahead so again if you want to go into this much further this is really an introduction to Plato's time is and I'm relying to some degree on pro calissa's comments and I like talking about proculis because he is a mystery he's the biggest mystery to me in philosophy and this is the mystery he takes plato's time is which is a very compact work and he takes nearly every single sentence and can find in that sentence a whole metaphysics so he unpacks it and explains it in hundreds and more pages like that to volume work I have there on the table now what is why am i saying it's a mystery well it's a mystery because when you begin to see the profundity of what crocus is doing some of Plato's dialogues especially at the time is he did one on the Republic by the way which doesn't exist anymore except in small sections if you take a look at what he did with Plato's time is you'll be amazed at how much is behind it because proculis brings into his work all of the thinkers that came between himself and major thinkers that came between himself and Plato nearly all of whom we don't have any text for anymore so therefore he brings a living tradition of a thousand years along with him and this ride showing the commentary on Plato's time is and it's the mystery therefore it is quite simple if it is true that proculeius commentary really reveals the thought of Plato home then the thought of Plato must be so terribly profound to have contained so much so compactly that it really defies the imagination to consider that anyone could be so profound and so magnificent the way he treats the subject as to require scholars for the next thousand years to pack at all therefore if you have a chance and get a copy so let me now work backwards thing and then we'll work forwards the particular passage that I would like to work on is the nature of the soul and it presents them very interesting very interesting constructions and it starts therefore 34c about so just keep that number in mind you can check any translation of Plato and he really begins his comment which is a paragraph he talks about it in a variety of ways but he jumps in at 35 a and I'm going to just read you the quote midway between being which is indivisible and remains always the same and the being which is transcendent and divisible embodies he blended a third form of being compounded out of the two that is to say of the same and other so what we're looking now at is an explanation of what's the soul well looks like then it's a mean it's a it's a mixture of two things it's a metric mixture of a being two kinds of being this is important you cannot break it into parts and this is partible this is always the same and this is always different or other same word different other and by bringing these together and he stirs them together with being to create a mean between these two now it's nice that we know that except for one thing and that is what does he mean by this word now this is a good word we've been playing around for quite a while and let's see if we can go into Plato and bring it out okay now we're going to talk now about the the most interesting metaphysics of Plato now when I talk about metaphysics I want to put over here a challenge is it possible that is it possible that his metaphysics also represents states of mind open to men so if so then you can look at it simultaneously it's the highest kind of reflection as well as the kind of highest kind of reflection applicable to mountain states of mind or highest states of mind or the higher we go let's even say the higher we go into this metaphysics the purer of the concept the higher the states of mind we go into the more we're talking about spiritual states of mind or yogic states of mind or transpersonal psychological states of mind so therefore that's our challenge so let's go back into it the highest term in the Platonic universe is the one also called the good and they are said to be identical and I think we once went through a beautiful proof of the fact that it can be said to be the same and that of course is proculis is great thirteenth proposition in his elements of theology so let's leave that for a moment now okay what can you say about the one or the good well according to the metaphysics you can't say anything about it because I'll remember all the statement you make about it are in fact in fact don't approach the majesty of the concept at all we'll always deem limits it in some way the only concept he has in the Parmenides where he talks about the one in the first hypothesis is that it is unlimited now Plato in the five Lepus another dialogue he said you know what first emerged if you want to talk about this metaphysically from the one the first things you can say about the one that follow from it are it's in limited or as he calls it the unlimited or the infinite and the fact that you are in some way you're talking about something no matter how grand and majestic in that sense it's also bound right that is to say there must be a bond about it so therefore this is the highest concept this is the second derive from it unlimited and bound now anything that's unlimited and bound just say anything at all about it you say that it is then of course you're bringing in the notion of being so when you talk about this unlimited and bound as if it has bearing then you must talk about it as something that the primary primary category is going to have to be permanency right it must stay with them that bond permanency all right permanency and yet the idea of unlimited this expansiveness right expansiveness a series of numbers unlimited number infinite numbers is theoretically motion right I'm going to say and in permanency or motion as permanency can be in contrast can be retaught about as in perfect rest but for it you know to it for it to have this quality there's one thing you have to say about it see talk about permanency what follows from that very idea permanency must be Sam sameness or same idea the same and when you talk in a similar way of some thing in motion always in motion difference so these are the five this is the highest concept this is what naturally follows from it if this is said then this can be said and therefore these are called the five do general writer for first five things that you can beast that can be said in any way to be once you assert that there is something unlimited and bound well if it's unlimited you are talking about something that has some kind of you're doing something you're it has some what do you want to call it you have to find it you have its now it's unlimited Oh must have a boundary that's a concept must have a boundary well see if you have an infinite series of numbers all right that may not have any last term naturally enough right but you can talk about numbers and therefore it is bounded in the sense and you can talk about number as a class a class of infinite number of members Balint good the first things you can say about it first things you can say about it when you recognize it it is inadequate are these two terms therefore in thinking and trying to understand the universe if there is a highest if there is a highest these two terms would follow if these two terms can be set to follow these follow quickly after well bond main bond or boundary how about boundary is this not saying something uh-oh not something else then you put some kind of fence around it and it's a question word my problem arises that this is exactly what the universe is according to duties that bounds of attempts no quite right it's not what you mean that the surface of you know the reality is in a four dimensional surface but you may put it into that context but I'm not sure that is Einstein unlimited yet found it okay right because light is curved and therefore there must be an enclosed universe within which all space must return I mean all light must return such a bad well whatever it is it is unlimited now we haven't decided whether it's power energy space or time just that it's as it is it's unlimited that's the first thing can be said about it okay let me okay let me take you through the reason all right if we want to assert that there is something called the won all right would you agree for the wavery reason before that what we mean by it is it cannot in any way entail a menace I don't know would you agree that no no see you put three things in there I would be finitely bond by it and I wanted to take that third thing out of there so in pure thought say I want to take on anything unnecessary if there is such a thing as a one then it cannot be a many if it cannot be a many then would you agree you can never regard it as a whole for any whole must have a sum of parts agreed all right would you go further and say therefore you can never regard the one as a part because a part presupposes a many us that is it is part of a sum of things called the whole for a part only has a meaning and respect to a hold and a whole always have any number of parts and therefore presupposes that would you agree that at the community said to have a whole or parts then anything that can be described as a whole or parts would not be applied to the idea of the one agreed let us then try and proceed would you agree that if anything we said had a beginning a middle and an end right the beginning of middle and end those would be distinction should be making in something and therefore you couldn't therefore attribute those kinds of ideas to the one but if you cannot say it has a beginning or an end then it must be that's the sense in which it's derived so not because of Einstein or physics or any other consideration but strictly by a dialectic no I just said so far that drawn from this you cannot say it is limited therefore it must be unlimited that's all so far we can go further and see what else we cannot do we must deny yeah yeah now when now I want to go back now that we have unlimited right would you agree we are talking about some thing the one that is fun of it well the that degree it's not anything else and in that respect I have isolated it from everything else found in looker if it if there is something that is unbounded we are talking about something unbounded unlimited that's that's a boundary around that idea which is the finest quite this and that define great that's right to define the defining it creates about yes so when I said I'm limited wow that's quite true okay all right now did you see how we generated from that dose now let's go further there's something very curious about this idea of being right and that is we can speak about it we can speak about this idea of being that's there for being unlimited permanent right but looker you see if it has some motion and the way in which we described it a moment ago a moment ago logical motion right we can then say is it possible is it possible for this thing with motion it either moves somewhere else it either moves to a place in which it is not or it stays where it is and rotates upon itself at some point for those are the kinds of motions there are well we can't say that it can move to some other place because that would presuppose there are other places in which it can move and that would be a many us we can't say then that it can move in some other place or even if it stays upon a point there has to be a point upon which it rotates that have to be a point upon which you rotate that's another thing and that's a many news is it possible then that there's this kind of motion that is to say it can know itself if it can now itself then that's the kind of being that can turn upon itself that's the Greek word for who see the trouble with that word is that it is often translated with the word essence and we do not mean the very few people know what they mean when they use word essence unless they mean by it's something that is intrinsic to a thing but that's not what this is this is the capability of something and its most fundamental ever turning upon itself and I know here itself or recognizing itself and that is a kind of motion different than the other kinds of motion we just described now it's that kind of right that kind of thing we're calling being now there's another Greek word on top right or top right which is also which is also given the word being and that's the problem these to sum these two in English were often interchanged and that causes a great deal of problem when we're going to use the word training upon itself and being as able to turn upon itself know what stuff we're going to use the word we see it because we don't have an English word for that and I will occasionally use the word essence and - bracketing okay now when I talk about being as being permanent always the same never any change in it in any respect eternal right then we're talking about the word being so on yeah from where to get that's right on top of it on tops right then I'm hunters right entendre now for the Greek word on toast right partner yes yes that gives the possibility of self of knowing oneself if we have that kind of beam right okay no I just wanted to go back to that one line I had and work backwards today now in this game of metaphysics we want to see where we put that essence we wanted to see where to put that essence now when you use this word essence simply because the text often doesn't know what he is saying is that this being or essence stands as it were between the one and soul now that's called a middle position that's a little position and as such this triad therefore is important because as the one as you see relates to the one in the highest sense you can't say you can break it up into parts when you talk about in respect to the soul you're talking about the soul in respect to a one soul now anything that exists anything that exists in our everyday world when we talk about existence we're talking about this lower one because everything is said to have existence has some kind of essence and that's between therefore if it's living right every living thing is said to therefore have some kind of soul some kind of essence and it must be related to some kind of body or bodies and if that's the case this is if it therefore is in this middle position between these two which we'll explain in a minute then we can talk about it being particle we're capable of being in parts now if it is over here then we see it is we see it is an image of the one in respect to it we see in respect to the soul then who SIA is the paradigm of the soul now I want to now jump into we can have some fun with the implications of this a paradigm is that from which everything he's said to be derived like in a declension all the ways in which something can be said to be developed executed the paranoid now we already had a shot at this but I'd like to go back to it just for a moment essence is something that it's come into existence come to get come into being right it's come into it I use the word existence not in terms of physical things because it's parents as it were with the bound and infinity and when it's bound when he talks about it as when the bound overcomes the infinite then then that's completely focused it's completely focused and therefore the idea of sameness develops you can then use the idea of sameness when infinity because that vanquishes because it vanquishes or overcomes or as in some parts of the universe exhibits its power to such a degree then you can say then that difference emerges because when the infinite that is no longer contained by anything there's nothing but a vast difference therefore the idea difference in sameness emerges when the infinite therefore gains access over the bound now notice what we're doing we're trying to talk about how certain ideas can come into existence metaphysically that's all we're doing and we're going to use that now we now can talk about as we did a moment ago we can talk about being as we see you that's predominant permanency all right we can talk about it as capable of this action and being which is men is capable of being in parts particle remember now when these two and these two come together and mix and they normally can't be mixed because the particle and the importable County mix it is mixed with Lucia it's forced the result of this mixture that's given the word soul that's what soul is that's all of it it is a new word all we're doing is saying since we said there is this and said we sought out there could be this when the two combine mixed up that soul that's all we mean by so therefore there's a part of soul which is permanent which is capable of knowing itself which can't be broken into parts and a part of soul which is in fact is in time this can be in time this permanency means eternity or eternal alright that's an eternity and therefore in the soul there's something in it that is eternal and there's something therefore that is subject to change now the soul is said to have three things you can talk about soul in three ways so let's break this up so that we can then talk about it this is soul three things and let me bring you to it right it has an O SIA it has a new SIA of the capability turning around itself it has a certain power and it has a certain energy because it derived those would you not agree from that vast power the infinite power that was there so the infinite power that was there that it's in it that is its inheritance being bound alright now what do we mean by power of the soul that means all the ways in which it can know all the ways it can know that's a power all the ways in which it can all energy is all the ways it can move in motion ordered motion ordered towards anything anything to commit up stages it can go through them in stages because it has that capability therefore soul has let's take out the other words we had in here before get rid of the gentleman change it therefore has what we call the essence of soul is generated in three that's called it's triple essence but Lucia as we know is something very interesting now we want to talk about it remember what we said about ousia it is that part it is that capability of the soul or the mind to turn upon itself and know itself that means there must be something in it right there must be something in it that allows a fullest flowering all right fullest flowering to emerge it means therefore that in that in this motion as it were in this turning about what it must move with such perfect harmony what are we go ha me I measured measured motion appropriate to the circumstances completely appropriate to the circumstances and since it knows itself right since it knows itself and knows itself that it knows itself therefore based in here is also basically idea or form now these three things these three things are the way in which Lucia can be said to function in the soul what does it do well it knowing itself is a fully flora fully flowering outcome of its total activities there's a harmony and it's very nature and in that knowing and that fullest knowing it then has the I must grasp the form about what it is in itself and express it in some idea that's the soul in respect to the osya therefore they're three parts of you see these are not parts as partible parts is the way in which it functions when it knows itself ah since it now can function and from two realms it now we can say to the degree that it is in man notice what it does that now can use all of the ways that can know and seek to satisfy all of those things and it does so by seeking therefore to know all things now what that means that means necessarily remember we said that that it's in the portable is in time therefore it can know all things in time that means it can know it in it can know it incrementally why is that because it means therefore that kind of a soul is generated in such a way that it can always be involved to be right in coming to be it can know whatever it is that's coming to be because it's unable to receive the whole of being at any one time and therefore it approaches things sequentially but if it turns if it turns upon itself then it can know itself as a whole and in that respect it receives the whole of being which is then said remember what we said a moment ago by heavens that's in the being as you see as eternity therefore the simultaneous simultaneous brass of all being is to know oneself and respect to one's being when that therefore would the cyma close grasp of all beings that's another way of talking about eternity right because when you know things partially you're lowing things sequentially you're breaking them up therefore we can say that if we are here all creation started here and here wherever we are in that timetable we know things sequentially and therefore we concede because we're not able to receive the whole of being I had where the whole of being is not simultaneously shown to us therefore it's parceled to us and we grasp it temporally unless you do this which is also the this of course is Arjuna's experience of ishvara and bhagavad-gita where he sees time and all of its majesty as he and its totality simultaneously as a one that's the same thing that's the same in respect to when it's turned to time and becoming there's one it turns to itself eternity is not a no because remember this is a this is an the soul is a mixture of the two mixed rather - well that's what time is time is a moving image of eternity yeah and it receives its power of the existing from its being as a suit no let's see if we can go a step further all right this is I'll come later good the cell is not home one part of it is is totaled the other part is partial I suppose that's why man can be a magnificent in one moment via clown the next except for my uncle lawyer was able to maintain a certain level of existence we're getting down please normally reverentially bow when we think of Uncle Louie okay one soul therefore right of the two parts then Plato says this then must be broken up parceled out must be parceled out we've broken up into pieces and these pieces therefore are going to be extended throughout the universe so he takes one part and the ratios of them are 1 2 4 8 3 6 3 9 27 and and then between each two intervals he puts two analogies to proportions arithmetic geometric and therefore he can then take this this one and this one and he bends them together bends them fastens them together and then this is called the same and that's called the other and then along the one it's at a certain angle which therefore all of these listings therefore allow us to put the position of the planets and he allows that these are also the musical intervals of the Greek Greek diatonic scale as you know and I just want to mention that in passing this I want to move on to something more interesting right so that means then that means then that built into the soul this number ratios measure analogy proportion because then the soul then is extended throughout the universe and since it's extended throughout the universe as a whole he then makes the statement that the soul actually so cannot exist without body and insole there has to be reason and therefore in the creation of this universe he's going to have something then that extends throughout the entire universe spread out through everything it has reason within it soul encompasses it and take can take on a bodily form wherever its required fine no I was reading that and he says he constructed reason within soul soul and body and that's the word Deus and that's the word life its noose and the Greek yeah well danoi is usually translated as understanding through news through Daniel through what you understand but you're quite right this is not ration as is not in the sense of rationality it's in the highest sense of reason in that respect the tapes on the word into large rivers but remember they're two parts two parts of the soul there's a higher and the other therefore one part there's noose and the other part there's opinion but we'll move into that in a moment all right okay then based therefore in the universe right necessarily therefore the soul must in inherently have the capability since it's generated this way the number ratio measure analogy and proportion well of the really nice question this is kind of it they could sometimes called the study of the solar eschatology come because the soul has the two parts one in time and one not right therefore and it views it views becoming view is becoming because it's made up of the two parts whether the two parts again I'm Lucia right a view or SIA which is capable now itself and the being which is capable therefore of having the powers to know all existing things in time this is an eternity or eternal and this is in time so we have an analogy let's see if I can get the analogy here then for you well actually it's going to take me a moment to do that so let's let's do it the other way okay your question is why is there a need for this for body to exist given the existence of soul right so not so you think I dropped your question I don't okay okay now we're to do that that's going to theology in theology Plato starts with this statement it's analogy being what we've been talking about is to becoming as truth is to believe now being relates to truth and therefore it can be known by logos or intellect and foreign ASUS which is highest kind of knowing as becoming can be known by opinion and all of our perceptions therefore you can make statements about it that you can call beliefs therefore becoming is to believe as being as to truth now being therefore he's going to add he's going to say it's self identical uniform non changing right eternally what it is hmm now I want to take these two together being - truth I'm becoming opinion or believe I've known through logos or reason and wisdoms known by opinion and sensation or perceptions now I'm putting that down first I want to talk about these two I want to talk about these two I want to talk about the realm of being and the realm of becoming now we're moving into theology when God saw God saw that everything was in disorder he desired that all should be like himself and so what he did then but he took over the visible which was in flux and disorder and he produced therefore order out of disorder this is not a creator this is an organizer there's nothing created if you mean by creation something that comes out of nothing so we desired that all should be like himself and this is called the supreme originating principle of the universe after he decided that he reflected he reflected on this right reflected on becoming now because he now put it into order and it's now ordered now ordered and now he's reflecting on what he's doing and he says you know what comparing holes with holes those holes which are by nature rational are always more beautiful than the holes that can be regarded as irrational and since Beauty is one of the standards in this process because order and beauty are kin he therefore brought order into the out of disorder and necessarily brought beauty into existence why because in terms of this theology God cannot do any action other than what is most beautiful therefore when he brought order out of disorder he necessarily brought it into a beautiful order therefore when he compared holes with holes he saw that the rational was more beautiful than the irrational and because of that because of that reasoning haha see because of that reasoning he put reason and soul and soul and body now that means therefore the model for this universe the model he desired that old things should be like himself therefore becoming must be like being and this must be the pattern this must be the copy this must be you chicken eternity Ozzie where remember simultaneous hole this must be in time therefore when God then creating universe spread it out through all becoming this is the universe this then is the universe and therefore he made it into a cosmos which then becomes a living creature endowed with soul owing to the Providence of its maker God so if the universe is like right if the universe is like the pattern with copy stands to a pattern therefore when we watch now right therefore when we function we then are similar to our Creator and we have to bring order out of our disorder and it must be done fairly beautifully right I stopped a beauty to it I know coercion right and in doing that we are we are nothing other than doing within ourselves in our universe what God did to the universe as a whole therefore we become as it were an element of the divine and respect to what we need to bring into order out of the disorder and therefore we are copying the very processes of creation of the cosmology therefore it is its realm right there's the call to demiran Bruce thank you yeah that's right right Demi or goes it's a god that works or goes right it's a demigod right god that works and so that we can then see therefore that this model or this pattern is being and it stands to truth and everything we say about this we can say is true and everything we say about this universe that was our creation the best we can say about it is in the realm of opinion necessarily because it's in time you never see the hole it's always a portable and the primary vehicles for understanding it our opinion and sensation or perception so this pattern now this pattern therefore must be must be not dead but alive and must have a vitality must have a vitality and it's also obviously since it's due making and doing all of these creative things there's evidence therefore it must have it and select so there's a living intellectual thing that exists sometimes called a intelligent living creature this therefore is called the intelligent living creature because of vitality to it and intellect about it and it has its own possibility of going right turning upon itself therefore this then is a copy of it and therefore this becomes this is the realm where we are and all other living creatures this must then include all intelligent living creatures or all intellectuals were put in another way the vital intelligible x' primordial basic patterns of all that is has a life and a vitality and this is sometimes also called the forms now in order for this becoming those universe to come into existence right it has to be made visible has to be made visible has to be made tangible and as well the principle of visibility is light or fire and the principle of anything tangible is earth so therefore necessarily before that universe to come into existence the way in which it has come into existence to be visible intangible necessarily the prime not print the primal elements must be fire and earth and two things of course cannot be joined without a third because you need something to bind them together and whenever you have two things bound to the third that's a mean analogy and when you have a three-dimensional space you need four terms not three and therefore between these he introduces to others water and air now they are principles they are not fire on earth and water and air right but it is whatever it is that makes things visible whatever it is that makes things tangible whatever it is that make things fluid and moving in a flow right whatever it is that can bring things into a vitality air therefore these are the primary so called elements understood in their sense rather than are wrong they stand to one another in analogies and he has two sets of them right so air is the water as fire as two air water is to hurt those areas to water what does that mean that means that all of the basic primal elements or basic fundamental principles are brought together into an analogy which means they are harmonized and if they are harmonized their harmony is not only because they're put in an analogy but they're created in such a way they can fit into an analogy therefore by necessity they are harmonized and that therefore allows us to say these things brought the current universe into existence now let's see if we can I'd like to read something for you first I talked about this in two series of analogies a three terminal four terminology and the most beautiful of bonds is that which most perfectly unites into one both itself from the things which it binds together and to effect this in the most beautiful manner is the natural property of analogy therefore analogy is a fundamental bond right all this it's a bond it's brought together harmonized and brought together it is a bond it's a fundamental bond that keeps everything in analogical relationships and therefore an analogical remain relationships therefore keeps them in such a way that can be said to be harmonized with one another in the most beautiful possible way and therefore the infinity which is the behind all of the infinitude of forms and the infinite power of the universe can be then said to have its counterpart the bound the bond shows itself in analogical constructions the major terms with analogical the constructions come out of what appears to be necessary given a metaphysical universe in which man can then be brought to know let's see if we can see that now matter of fact let me read it for you okay out of my big book hmm maybe I'm not gonna do it for you huh now when he uses the word science in this translation they didn't know what Sciences were in our sense of the word it was anything therefore that was intellectual that had a sound principle for the way in which its parts were ordered it and it had an ordering function right it's not our sense of the word science which is something objective something that observers independently can verify that has empirical properties etc etc since the sciences which are in us see all the ways of knowing all the ways of knowing are called collectively the sciences in Plato since also the sciences which are in a some look to one object of knowledge such as medicine some to health but others extend to many as arithmetic to philosophy to politics many others and this is not only the case with arithmetic but also with the measuring science and with statistics Fermi statics for Plato says that either all or some of the fabricated arts require the assistance of these and without these no accuracy but others look to all the arts and to the contemplative Sciences as is the case with divining arts as Plato well I like that but that isn't the quote I wanted yeah I do that sometimes unfortunately hmm see it's not that for yeah huh for it appears to me on this account that Plato constitutes the soul from the first general and from numbers ratios harmonic ratios and likewise that he places in it the principles of figures divine motions in order that by causally comprehending the reasons of all disciplines and of dialectic it might thus know all things the essences the numbers the harmonies the figures and the motions poles consist it seems likewise that he constitutes the soul as being allied to intelligible z-- from the general being which primarily subsist in them but that he gives figures to soul as being allied to sensible x' for things which are truly figured are sensible x' and that as being a medium between intelligible x' and sensible x' he binds it with a harmonic ratios though in intelligible forms also for there the form of harmony and the form of figure so within us therefore right now this is taking off now so within us therefore are these things built within the soul itself and that allows us therefore to comprehend the reasons for all the disciplines all the things we want to know and the dialectic and thus we can know all things where we can know all things because the very things that we need to know them are built within the nature of the soul thank you that's what I wanted to do tonight yeah quite right no you didn't listen finding you might have missed it in another sense but since I didn't state it you missed it in another sense okay one is considered one is considered the highest concept of a god but in the Platonic world there are other kinds of gods there's also a god that is a pure being intellect now when they talk about a pure being they also talk about it as a primal Dean and this pure being therefore has a intellect and a vast vitality and it is the necessity of this thing now here's we're going to call pure being here we're gonna call vitality here we're going to call it intellect just to represent it now in this in this interesting game how does how does the first creation take place see the first creation has to be the idea in the mind of God the Creator because you can't have any creation according to what we were doing before you have a model that model right remember the beautiful concept that he he wanted everything to be like himself modeled after himself therefore there must be an idea of himself in the mind of God know when this is Plato doesn't express this fully what's highness does and in a very beautiful way he puts the whole thing in terms of process Plato puts it in terms of structure so latina sees the one as overflowing out of its fullness there's no not natural overflowing of itself returning to itself at the moment at this returning to itself with intellect therefore it must in some way recognize itself knows and knows that it is and that it has turned upon itself well that means therefore that must involve knows that it is Bing it has turned upon itself must turn that means there must be a vitality that allows it to turn upon itself to see itself knows and recognizes itself therefore there must be intellect therefore this must be able to flowing and turning around and returning to itself now that metaphysically and theologically is being that's being all right that's been while you can say it's it's not part of a one when you take the idea of the one as a process then you can talk about it this way and at that moment of turning around and seeing itself you can now call that being what we remember that susi turning about itself million so right now this then this then is and now we're going to go poetic a bit right but therefore therefore this is the idea capital I this is the pattern this is the idea of God has of himself in creating universe now soup I mean ah good thank you now try this out there's there's nothing to see to talk about it this way we really mean that being isn't dead it's really being primarily but it also has a vitality and an intellect to it so we can talk about this part of being as the intellect of pure being we can talk about this part of it as being the vitality of pure being right right in other words we can make three distinctions in one repeating itself therefore in the same way now we can talk about intellect there's the beam to thing there's being to intellect and there's a vitality in select and there's also the highest aspect of the intellect events like by the way in the same way this can overflow and turn upon itself so so then you take the same drama with the same elements another generation created things yeah yeah yeah yeah no fries yeah so all right yes because it's a cosmology right well I'm not sure whether they're two ways of dealing with us one is to say that when we were talking about this idea right in man that's man's intellect and let me let me change that this generation is soul of the universe it's throughout the entire universe and therefore for Plato the whole universe much like a body much like our own body when we touch any part of this there's the communication that goes throughout the whole of it for Plato therefore the whole universe is a living entity that knows itself forever it experiences would enter whenever it experiences so there's communication in the entire universe for the Plato's world so you're asking I think the next question was how do you go from soul in general to particular souls such as you want well in the same way that wherever you touch yourself there has to be for that same analogy to fit therefore wherever you touch you and immediately feel therefore throughout the whole must be that sense of a soul and therefore one of the platonic yoga's is the separation the soul from the body is by drawing it together from all parts of the body into a unity outside of the body and therefore the body therefore can be shallow in that sense and the soul takes the truth well you see what's nice about Plato and I think it's absolutely unique in history is that Socrates had a Plato latinas had porphyrin Jesus had Paul and it's because of porphyry who was the the court stenographer as it were for patinas that it's a condensation of dialogues so it is a very very heavily condensed work but I think I was using that idea with Pro colas more than I was with China's seep latinas is easier to unpack because they are assertions that are being made young that take on a logical sequence in Plato you don't have that you have threading you have to pick up an idea here and here and there and bring them together into unities to understand Plato is to exercise understanding to know Plato is to become platonic that's why people of aristotle you don't have to do that all you have to do was quote him and every wherever he is quotable there's a sentence that came before it and after it that follows and you it's easy to lecture upon it's easy to talk about but for the time he is there's so much threading like I only took care of you know a couple of pages of the time is but pro Clips has those two volumes so but I do agree with you Latinas really does it's similar to protocol in that sense but I think Latinas is more interested in processes and the psychology of man he's interested in the realm of experience he wants to bring man in intellectually yoga clay and proculeius is interested in creating a great synthesis of all previous thinkers into a whole side of it so I don't good question yes see what he's doing is really interesting I find that is it takes man's condition and he takes all the possible experiences man can have and then he works backwards and says well given what we are what does that presuppose what does that presupposed what does that presupposed what system must I create in order to bring all of that into a unity so he works or he gets a great insight and works forward I imagine he does for him and know anything that has a soul has to have vitality around yes but it would be done must have a soul he would say if if motion right if it's going somewhere if it has a direction right then you have to assume its direction is either meaningful or not to them to whatever degree it fits into a pattern there to that degree it's influenced by the pattern therefore on some level it has to have some kind of intellect functions could I say - but there for some level it is soft reflexive I mean I always look at this in terms mathematics it was here in terms of recursion and yes sir this recursion oh yes it's girls instruction are you familiar with that god particle thesis I'm sure familiar yeah that's right that's the point he sang yeah yeah that's your point is what he's making yeah he took over the visible region and he saw that it was in a state of discordant and disorderly he took over what was disordered destroyed yes it was disordered not aroused like I view the the moving universe every single day and it's stuff that's filled a lot of order to me yeah I agree laws in fact you look please yeah that's right how was it disordered I think he's talking about different things he's doing it the game of in the beginning in the beginning everything was disordered and he brought it into order the beginning was chaos no chaos and God out of the kiss both forth cosmos smarter which is the order mm-hmm yeah beginning chaos I or if it was first what is it and when did that happen okay that's absolute liquor liquor you have an absolutely good question there's nothing wrong with right but you want to know is how does he describe that original chaotic condition other than saying it's disordered is that what you're asking yeah yeah yeah good question he has a whole section on it okay yeah yeah I'm glad they didn't ask for it I got out of that one quick I don't want to tell you now he talks about it by describing it in terms of gold radiance which is quite amazing that the the prime the primal condition of things may be disordered but for him and has a vast luminosity to it and that's in the time of it okay thank you guys thank you for sharing you

Channel: PostNothingness

Views: 22,008

Rating: 4.8865981 out of 5

Keywords: Philosophy

Id: OZrZCE-ufoM

Length: 97min 20sec (5840 seconds)

Published: Sat Jan 24 2015