Plato's Apology (59)

[Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] oh so tonight it's the apology I'm going to explore the apology and explore one idea and that is if Socrates was a philosopher he was a very curious kind of philosopher in the sense that no one else can be and therefore it's going to show the uniqueness of Socrates both in terms of philosophy and as a religious figure so that's going to be our goal right unique both in the terms of philosophy and now I'm going to use the word religious in a different sense religious sometimes signif was from the Latin to be bound together so rather than that I'll say spiritual therefore he is unique both in presenting himself as a philosopher and his uniqueness is really rooted in the fact that he has a diff very interesting profound spiritual relationship with God and therefore that marks him as unique both in terms of philosophy and among other spiritual leaders both present and the past so as we usually do I would first just like to look at the architecture of the work let this be the entire dialogue it starts in terms of pages 17 and the Greek stefanus number 17A and it ends at 42a some 25 pages the apology presumably on one level is socrates's defense and the whole issue of the apology is what is he defending that's what we want to explore he talks about the charges against him as the old charges and the new charges he introduces the old charges first at 19 two pages as it were into the text it goes on to 24 and then he says that's enough so the old charges extend from 19 to 24 the new charges pick up at 24 and go to 27 and at 27d he says that's enough so the question that we have is rather curious let's see if we can make it even clearer at 36a the vote first vote there are two votes and then there's the second vote and that's a 38c the official charges are what he calls the new they're the new so therefore in terms of the dialogue itself the formal charges against which he presumably is to defend himself occupy approximately four pages three to four pages those are the official charges these are the Char is written on the affidavit and uh these are the official charges so therefore they're going to be an interesting point of good Heavens if the official charges constitute the bulk of the work that's the official charges and he's finished with the his defense then what's the whole thing doing look here we have 25 Pages we have 25 Pages he's only occupying four for the formal charges the old are not charges he calls these the old prejudices that he wants to answer so here is this curious fellow he's being formally charged with breaking Athenian law and according to Athenian law at the bottom of the charges you have to State what you think is the sentence therefore when Socrates received the affidavit he knew that the sentence proposed by those who accused him was death therefore you have to vote twice you have to ver vote first to see whether or not you consider that he is guilty of the charges now there are 501 people in the jury so the first vote must be the 5001 must decide whether he's guilty of the charges then Socrates can offer an alternative sentence then it goes back to the jury and they have to decide between socrates's alternative sentence and the one specified in the affidavit well right right on the surface of it it's rather curious isn't it that here we have a work called the apology and he only takes four pages on the whole thing that's all he pays attention to he announces the charges four pages later he says that's enough I've had enough of this and he sets it aside and he's now going to engage in a new and entirely different subject and the real the real defense therefore that he's making is a defense against prejudices that's his defense and we have to know good Heavens what is he talking about what is he talking about these prejudices what kind and why is he spending this amount of energy when he should be preparing himself against the formal charges the affidavit and instead he wants to deal with these charges which he calls the old accusers he said they've been accusing me of something for years and years and years he said they've got you when you were young children they've been pumping these things into you he said I must deal with them first therefore what he does is quite remarkable and interesting he makes believe he makes believe that these old accusers have prepared a document and therefore he reads off a make believe a make believe set of charges that's what he does he say now I'm going to make believe that I'm reading a make believe set of charges to express into words what they really are accusing me of and what they're really accusing me of is this old Prejudice how long does he take for that just four pages just like that then he picks up the affidavit and he says and now I'm going to treat the affidavit as if it is merely another set of accusers that's all he's doing so the old accusations against Socrates based upon an old Prejudice he pulls them together and makes believe that's the affidavit he's going to defend himself again and that he spends This Much Time on it four pages that's enough then he picks up the actual affidavit with the charges and he says you know what I'm going to do now he I'm going to deal with them as if they were merely another set of accusers four pages it's all over so our question is going to be good Heavens now look here what what's going on in the bulk of the dialogue practically 10 pages this material what's going on could have been left out could have been left out in Charly matter of fact you might even argue he didn't need this either he could have just simply rolled out the written affidavit and defended himself and have four-page dialogue and that'd be the end of it but let's give him the fact that he is now trying to answer his accusers who are charging him against an old Prejudice of theirs and so we have the first the old accusations and then the affidavit which he treats as another set of accusers and let's just dispense with that in the way in which he does so well so the first thing he does is read off that great set of charges make believe charges and I'll read that for you at 19 but I must tell you first now Socrates is very careful to address the jury and you're going to be in the jury box tonight and he's going to ask you to do this please pay careful attention observe and pay attention as to whether what I say is just or not so you're in the jury box and you have to decide whether what he's doing is just or not because it is peculiar all right now the first set of false accusations brought against him he says there's a certain Socrates a wise man a ponder over things in the air and one who has investigated the things beneath the Earth and was made the weaker argument the the stronger he said these are the people who are my dangerous enemies because they caught you when you were young and they spoke to you and convinced you at a very early age and there was no defense he says there was no defense against these early accusations against me it's not even possible to know their names they're all Shadows then curiously enough he's puts these aside you see and he rephrases this set and this is then we can really call this 2A right first set and then the the the uh subsidiary second said he says well he said I I'll tell you what he said I must make a defense against these he said what should I do he said I I should I should take up from the beginning the question of the accusation of this false prej Prejudice directed against me and therefore he said how am I going to do that I must explain he said what aroused the prejudice in these men and therefore he said I tell you what I'm must do he said I must read their sworn statement as if it were the plaintiffs so we have something curious here see we have a restatement of the accusation in two forms one course comes from AR stones and here's the second Socrates is a criminal and a busy body investigating the things beneath the Earth and in the heavens and making the weaker argument stronger in teaching others these same things he this the one I will deal with he says I'll deal with this and he says look here the whole idea that I have some wisdom is just simply wrong I have no wisdom he said if anybody can investigate the things beneath the Earth and in the upper Heavens he said it's very good I think it's wonderful that they have such skills he said I don't have any so he discusses this and shows them to be found groundless he said therefore look here it might occur to you therefore to raise the question if I'm rejecting all of these early accusations against me then how is it that I gained a certain reputation for these very things he said I'll tell you how the Prejudice arose he say a friend of mine shiron he said have the trouble to go before the delic Oracle and ask [Music] them about me so he went before the delic oracle and he was so bold as to ask the delic Oracle the question he asked if anyone was wiser than I and the answer was no one is wiser now you have to picture this all right he's going to give you the reason why this Prejudice was built up against him his friend went up to the delor and said no one is wiser now he's the delic Oracle is sacred to Apollo no one is wiser no if he accepts the gods of the state Apollo is a god of the state Athena Apollo I imagine he would accept that but he says after hearing this he said you know what he said um I decided to do something he said I decided that I should prove the utterance wrong this is 21 C he said I couldn't believe I was wise he said so I decided to prove the utterance wrong and that is I would show the Oracle that it is not true and so I went around examining and examining so we went around to various groups of people first the politicians public officials then the poets then the workers and he tried to demonstrate that the Oracle was wrong that they were wiser than he he says no each one of those cases I discovered that it's not true that none of those people were wiser than I am he said but therefore I came to a very interesting conclusion about this strange kind of wisdom he said I'm neither wise in their wisdom nor foolish in their Folly he said I know what the torle meant then what it really meant was that human wisdom is of little or no value so while you as I went around to this one group after the other group I first went to the politicians The Poets and the workmen a lot of young people came around and followed me and they were influenced by me and they started imitating what I do he said that's true that's what they were doing but I didn't teach them they picked up things by themselves what they saw me doing so therefore they think I'm corrupting the youth but ask them by teaching them what and doing what he because I I haven't taught them anything and I'm not doing anything other than going around questioning they're at a loss now here's a line I want you to have they have nothing to say but they do not know and that they may seem to be at a [Applause] loss and they say these things that are handy [Music] now as far as these accusations are concerned which my first accusers made against me this is sufficient he now there's another set so once more I will pick up this charge he says but I'll treat it as if they were another set of accusers let us take it up in turn let's take these charges up now these are the form charges Socrates is a wrongdoer corrupts the young and does not believe in the gods the state believes in but other new Spiritual Beings [Applause] instead right Socrates doesn't believe in the Gods in the state but he believes in other new Spiritual Beings instead I'm a wrongdoer he says that's it he corrupts the youth doesn't believe in the gods the state believes in but in other new Spiritual Beings instead he this is not this is what I really must deal with this now I'm going to deal with these criminal wrongdoer corrupt the youth I don't believe in the gods the state believes in but in other new Spiritual Beings instead of course you already gave evidence didn't he that many of the young people do follow him around and imitate him and in that sense he's corrupting them by the way does he show that he believes in the gods of the state when he's trying to disprove the delic Oracle he did say he was going to disprove the delic Oracle that was his goal to go around to disprove it well that's an interesting charge does because if Socrates does believe in new Spiritual Beings instead then of course you broke the law for I have a great quote I want to share with you and um I'm at U 31d perhaps it may seem strange that I go about and interfere in other people's Affairs to give this advice in private but don't venture to come before your assembly and advise the state the reason for this as you have heard me say it many times in many places is that something that's something [Music] Divine and spiritual comes to me the very thing which molus ridiculed his indictment and put in the affidavit I have had this from my childhood it's a sort of voice that comes to me and when it comes it always holds me back from what I'm thinking or of doing but never urges me forward it's this which opposes my engaging in politics now he's reminding the the jury just like I'm reminding you that in this day affidavit drawn up by malitas this very charge is there and in this quote he's even reminding you that there is something Divine and spiritual comes to me the very thing which malit has ridiculed his indictment and then he does the account for the fact he does say he believes in it well would you not agree he's giving evidence against himself he's giving evidence here against himself he's giving evidence that he is not believing in the in the delphic Oracle matter of fact he's going to try to disprove it he indicates just that many people do follow him around and imitate him in that sense he is corrupting the youth but not corrupting them in his sense only in their sense so now here if this is true and we have evidence that he doesn't believe in the delic Oracle nor does he cite in in his defense any reference any of the Greek gods and therefore if he agrees that it can be said that people are corrupted being in his company by their reasoning then all the way down the line he's giving evidence that he's guilty formally guilty of the charges whether or not the charges are just is another question but if this is their law he's giving evidence is he not that he did break the law he's giving arguments to show that he's guilty and therefore when the people vote if they look at the evidence which he himself gives no one Char charges him with anything additional he's guilty and so the vote is made and the vote comes comes out and uh sure enough they uh find him guilty of the charges and then socres considers his whole case and he then recommends an alternative sentence which is he says I think I deserve something since I've been doing so much with the state my whole life he says I want maintenance free room and board I want to be maintained so I I want free room and board in the panium which is one of the great sacred buildings up in the Acropolis for the rest of my life and since we know something about riotti his parties he attended in the Symposium and all his cronies piling in at the last minute drinking up a storm that's a very interesting alternative sentence free room and board in the ponum it's like The Blair House and so they go back once more and they say Socrates we can't accept this alternative sentence death and that's the dialogue only thing we have to wonder about is what's this 10 pages you see it's half of the dialogue look here 17 to 27 27 to 2736 right there we go or just a little bit short of it if we pick it up at 19 what's this little what's this middle section doing and that's really what I want to talk about that's where we're going so let's take a look at what he's doing now I'd like to present there um 2427 is right that's right want to make sure I'm using a different text than I usually use I have to find it [Music] um at exactly at 28 28 well then men of Athens Socrates addressing the whole audience 501 in the jury box well men of Athens that I am not wrong that I am not a wrongdoer according to malus's diment seems to me not to need much of a defense but what I have said is enough that ends it that's all but you may be assured that what I said before is true that great hatred has risen against me in the minds of many persons and this it is which will cause my condemnation if it is to cause it not molas or anitos but the Prejudice and dislike of the many this has condemned many other good men and I think we do so and there's no danger it will stop with me it'll go on it's not m is it's this Prejudice it's not going to end he saidwell then you might ask then why am I conducting myself the way I am doing what am I doing it for he says you think I'll tell you he I just tell you what I'm doing so I have a post I have a post very much like in the military for thus it is men of Athens in truth that wherever a man stations himself think it's the best to be there or is stationed there by his Commander there he must as it seems to me remain and run his risks considering neither death nor any other thing more than disgrace he said I've been commanded military posts and that's where I I I have placed myself here's where it starts now but when the God gave me a station as I believed and understood with orders to spend my life in philosophy and examining myself and others there that's his post with orders to spend my life and philosophy and examining myself and others he said if I were to Desert my post through fear of death or anything else he said I would be disobeying the god he said ' don't worry about death nothing to fear about death so he thinks he thinks he has been assigned as post by God for know that the god commands me to do this and I believe that no greater good ever came to pass in the city than my service to the God he said I just going tell you to take care of your souls that's my job he said no better thing has happened in Athens now I'm going to say some things to you at which you might you know perhaps cry out but do not do so by any means for I know if you kill me I being such a man as I am you you will not injure me as much as yourselves for neither malus nor anos could injure me that would be impossible for I believe it is not God's will that a better man should be injured by a worse and so men of Athens I am now making my defense not for my own sake as one might imagine but far more for yours that you may not by condemning me error in your treatment of the gift God Gave You sees himself as a gift of God he said if you put me to death you know he said you you won't you won't easily find another I'll tell you what I am is I'm a gadfly I think that God fastened me upon the city in some such capacity and I go about arousing and urging and reproaching each one of you constantly alighting upon you everywhere the whole day long oh yes he says you know perhaps you might be angry like people awakened from a nap and might slap me as anos advises and easily kill me then you'd pass the rest of your lives in a slumber unless God in his care for you should send someone else to sting you and that I am as I say a kind of gift from the gods you might understand from this now I made a rather bold statement before I said that I want to make a claim that I think Socrates is making a unique claim and the uniqueness has not so far been addressed I now want to see whether I can address it and why then do people love to spend much of their time with me you heard the reason men of Athens for I told you the whole truth it's because they like to listen when those are examined who think they are wise and are not so for it is amusing but as I believe I have been commanded to do this by the God now watch the statement very interesting statement through oracles and dreams and in every way in which any man has ever been commanded by divine power to say anything whatsoever right I've been commanded to do this by the god through oracles and dreams and in every way in which any man has ever command been commanded by divine power to do anything whatsoever that's rather bold statement he's making a claim that he is unique there's the uniqueness from Socrates Socrates hey there it is now you know um one of the old rhetorical tricks is that after you uh make your statement you try to leave something for the people to remember you right some a rhetorical trick well Socrates has a great line just before they go to judge whether or not he's guilty of the charges he has one statement he brings them and it goes all the way back from the beginning and pulls it all together this is the last sentence before the vote so I'll read you the sentence before it include the last sentence because it's the background do not therefore men of Athens demand of me that I act before you in a way which I consider neither honorable nor right nor Pious especially when impiety is the very thing for which molus here has brought me to trial for it's plain that by persuasion and supplication I forc you to break your Oaths I should uh teach you to disbelieve in the existence of the Gods and in making my defense should accuse myself of not believing in them here it is but that's far from the truth for I do believe in them the gods for I do believe in them men of Athens more than any of my accusers and I UST my case to you and to God to decide it is uh it is as as it shall be best both for me and for you for I do believe in them right I do believe in the gods men of Athens more than any of my accusers and I'll entrust my case to you and to God to decide you say he's being charged with whether or not he believes whether he does char chares whether Socrates does not believe in the gods of the state and here's the last line I do believe in them men of Athens more than any of my accusers I do believe in them more than all he had to do was mentioned Athena apulo and the gods he doesn't take time out to enumerate any of them but I do believe them in the sense that none of my my other accusers to let me give you another translation and you'll see the fun in this quote but I am far from that gentleman I do believe in a sense in which none of my accusers does I do believe in a sense in which none of my accusers does I do believe in a sense that none of my accusers does then he believes in the Gods in a totally different way than any and different from any of the senses in which his accusers believe in God and they wanted know whether or not he does in fact believe in other new Spiritual Beings instead and he's already admitted that so they judge him guilty so I have selected a whole bunch of quotes that in this section deals with socrates's relationship to him himself and to God he sees that he has been assigned a post he sees therefore in that post not only individual men but they has a duty to Athens as a duty to wake up a whole city he thinks there's no better show in town than his show he thinks he's been commanded to do that and he thinks no one else right I've been commanded in a way in which in every single way in which any man has been um urged to do the Divine so I've met them all oracles and dreams and and every way in which any man has ever been commanded by a Divine Force to deal with with this issue and that's what he does so he's placing himself on the very high level of spirituality so what is he defending he's defending philosophy that's is defending his brand of philosophy his brand of philosophy is the expresses itself on that level of spirituality which we find in the other dialogues as well as here so let me throw it open to questions I think I've said enough does it mean that if he believes in in a different way than the msus that he's actually believing in different gods well that's the issue isn't it let me do it again you can see it again if you go in one translation it will go in One Direction much more than in the other I do believe in a sense in which none of my accusers does okay I do believe that would be in the gods right in a sense in which none of my accusers does therefore he does believe in but in a sense totally different than the way in which his accusers believe in God wait just let me give the contrast for I do believe in them men of Athens more than any of my accusers more than in a different sense than but in either case he's blanking whichever one you want right he's blanketing this the case that he yeah he does believe in the God but he also see introduced others as well he what he's introduced others like his di yeah that's that's right yeah yeah you um you said that line like four times earlier and I didn't get the Insight that he was addressing the accusers um accusation their charge against him until just now until she asked the question that yes I do believe in gods and other thingss that my accusers did just doing with their charge reflecting their separation from his brand of spirituality in their accusation that Socrates does not believe in the gods that the state believes in and the last line whichever one you want is yes I do believe in the gods of the state by the way I believe them in in a sense in which none of you do and that's the sentence they're now going to carry with them now can you conclude from that that yes you does believe in the gods of the state believes in does this imply in any way that there is a way in which you believe in the gods of the state and he's saying by the way I believe in God's in what sense does he believe in them it's not specified it's not stated he he does agree that he's radical oh yes it's either more or other way either way he doesn't believe in the Orthodoxy well that's the way it reads doesn't it that's the way it reads and in all of the time that he's invoking the god in this whole section and I think I read six or seven of them in no way does it look like it's one of the Gods of the state believes in he could have said at that point by the way and some there's some question about whether or not one of the Greek one one of our Gods happens to have been the the the cause of water of signing me this post while it happens to be Apollo he didn't do that right it's it's nameless right but the gods that the state believes in he could have taken the opportunity at that time said well actually it's emis I think it's Artemis commanded me because she has that kind of Duty it could be Athena no names now this is his defense and if you would agree with me that you don't want the jury to walk out with questions about your attention of what you mean what you're doing and it looks like therefore you can freely see is the question it's often people think some U some authors especially the translator of this dialogue that we just I just read think the charges that he's an atheist that they're charge the state is charging him with atheism that's not the case it's not the case that he's if he believes in other news spiritual I mean that's what I was under impression too but how can he be charged with other new Spiritual Beings if he's an atheist yeah right and yeah instead of the Gods of the state yeah when he begins to dialogue with meus meus changes it to atheism oh yeah yeah but even though he was able to make him change the statement the affidavit the statements and the charge and the affidavit Remain the charges yeah right so he contct yeah yeah now in the earlier dialogues he does talk about the gods of State he does talk about Zeus Etc um and the the earlier part of the AP in other dial he does so he has again but he's doing it in a different way so it's not a question of their names rather a question of is it also oxy Orthodoxy certainly what certainly unorthodox right I mean that's that's the whole accusations that's what you know he's and he's turning he's turning the whole trial the trial is these formal charges he's turning it against them and saying look I want to take this last dialogue that I'm going to have he dialogues with the whole city 501 people and he wants to now defend pH philosophy against the accusers that the accusers have prejudice against philosophy so he's turning the entire court scene into a defense of philosophy that's what he's doing in the first set of charges that's what he's doing here justifying it here so he turns the whole case upside down so the the last major public dialogue that he has he AR is with the state and that's a nice thing to do if you have the opportunity to dialogue with the whole state 51 people in the jury puzzled about something he's being Guided by dreams Oracles in any way man has been commanded by God and he follows through with that is that is there any other indication of how that's different is that different than what the state would uh believe in in terms of relating to the gods or pardon me I I don't understand your question is that in any way different than the way in which the state would believe in Gods yes yes does he give an indication of pal me let me make sure I have it are you asking whether or not a contemporary Greek at the time of PL in the time of this statement would look at that as evidence of the way in which they believed in the gods their own Gods yes well uh there are two things with that one is uh we have to judge just in terms of the dialogue itself and uh even if he were to make that statement he didn't take the opportunity at that time to mention one of that by the way one of the gods that uh has been directing me to do this my whole life the game of Philosophy by the way happens to be Athena he didn't name it he could have named it chose not to let me give it back I've been commanded to do this by the god through oracles and dreams and every way in which any man has ever been commanded by divine power to do anything whatsoever that time he could have said you know I've been commanded to do this by Apollo the oracles or it sounds like a very monistic statement to say too by the God you know I mean within the istic system his new spiritual being which ium that's what he's talking about well when he says God he's talking about the one right right I mean it seems he could say hey God your God our God the God my God my God thank you for God or just let let it let the whole business of the article drop out I have been commanded by God well this is the whole problem isn't it what's the significance of this because we know if this were chosen it would mean then that they are other gods that would be quite appropriate a god since they are polytheism right your God I identify by the way I'm identifying with your God same God with your God that's the god that has urged me to do this my God uhoh dangerous different Our God communality we both share the same thing God unspecified the god uh oh which one no no no no th not a but that's what's so annoying about it I mean his ego is is is what I mean I would be really annoyed if somebody was sitting there saying that to me you know I mean putting putting himself on such a pedestal oh that's right that's right I'd be stoked Pard pardon that's right that's right I mean this is this man is making the most astonishing claim yeah and we can say it's egoistic or we can say it's simple and straight depending upon how how you read it he tried to prove dely wrong and I mean to me that his proof of dely isn't necessary disbelief in Apollo it is a redu adapur he goes you know he doesn't all than Blind Faith just saying okay they say you're the wisest person MH I mean be pretty stupid to accept that without any proof so he goes and says okay let's assume that Delia is wrong I I would meet somebody wiser and so he is um in a certain way by this time saying the God is not his personal egotism it is Modesty of the wisest person if that makes sense see isn't that interesting because um he chafon goes to the delic Oracle and says is anyone wiser than Socrates the delic Oracle comes out no one is wiser Socrates and says oh this can't be I will disprove the oracle that's his language right I sought to disprove it and if we're all in the Greek world and Apollo is sacred Apollo the delic Oracle you're just hearing what did he say he's going to disprove and he goes around to disprove it and then when he can't right because that's it turns out that he does disprove it but changes it by saying oh he says I must restate what the delic Oracle meant well the delic weather delic orac meant that or not it certainly wasn't what the delic Oracle said that is that no one is wiser Socrates well I think I know what the delic Oracle meant what he really mean meant to say is that that no man is wise and the gods alone are wise that's a great statement but was that the original statement yeah no what impact did this have then what pardon me what impact did this have on the state shortly thereafter maybe in a little longer term could carry uh from some people who who read history I have been told that this was this this kind of affidavit was never again written this ended these kinds of affidavit but I don't know whether that's true you know you mean historians say that after this kind of affidavit written by by molus and andos no further charge like this was ever filed against a person whether that's true or not I don't know did they were they did they seem regretful after the they issu the death sentence uh uh there the dialogue that follows this there are two dialogues that follow of us that pick up that theme one is The Credo and the other is the fedo and in The Credo time has passed and um therefore there's time for reflection in the state and Credo quite wealthy and old friend of Socrates comes to the jail and says look we have everything paid the Jailer has been paid everybody has been paid off everyone has had a kind of second thought you can just walk out that gate right now leave your cell there's a boat in the harbor say goodbye to all your friends get on board and you're free so yes there is a sense from The Credo that there was a second thought about it and perhaps they judge rashley yeah yeah yeah at least that's one way to measure it ironically I was wondering if you say that he's no one no one is wiser and that comes from the Delta gor and he actually ended up believing in the state which would be believing in that delic oracles he ended up believing in in the Del or if he did oh then he would be believing I take it in what the state believe in which means that he is actually he is no wise he is there is no one wiser than himself if he believed that that would be one of the consequences which thank goodness he didn't no I just wondered I just thought it was ironic funny because they're the that are claiming that because he doesn't um because because he does well he doesn't believe in the gods of the state and well I I don't think there's evidence that he does not believe in the gods of the state I think there's sufficient evidence that there were many opportunities for him to declare that he did believe in one of the Gods of the state and chose not to even as his own defense that wasn't there's definitely a difference between his his belief in God and accusers believe in God that's what he says himself yes quite true how do you know it's a where was it where is it that you get the information that the god that Socrates would be would be a no I didn't I I was just making up some names possibilities emus AA no you knew for no no I used more than one okay um do you have any idea where chronologically the delphic Oracle uh what they said about Socrates took place I'm just wondering whether that happened before or after he has gone through all this conversation with the Divine or has that been happening his whole life well the voice had been with him from childhood from we know that right um chafon has been dead a long while he said and therefore a long while whatever Socrates was at that time minus a long while is the age one but beyond that I couldn't tell you I don't know so that's when he started his questioning that that's when he actively yes yes that's when he actively went around because that's when he sought to disprove the Oracle and therefore he went around first to the political leaders and then the poets and then the workers that's right so it looks early doesn't it yeah but how early I don't know is this sort of analogous to the mythology of Jesus Christ cuz I know he sort of went mythology he sort of went around you know saying you believe in one God all these people were fallowing around then then went before what the um conscious pilot or something a judgment blah blah blah the guy sort of said you know I follow God stff so yeah they are both trials but this is a lengthy defense and of course we don't have that on the side of the day Jesus um but there are certain similarities there one is of course that uh biggest one is whether or not Socrates is a martyr yeah martyr is usually when you die for a belief postos you Jesus Christ well it'd be interesting you see to take a look at the last words of Jesus and last words of Plato pardon me of Socrates and the fedo the last words of socr and the fedo or uh he pulls down the blanket that was covering his face just as the poison is creeping up and he says crto crto crto he calls his friend crto and he said we ow a topus make sure it's paid make sure it's okay yeah and Jesus of course you know the last words is uh my God my God why why is the abandon me forsaken me so which myth pardon According to which myth because there is multiple versions of the death Jesus's death death SE so there is other on which don't have that ending that's true that's right isn't it it's over isn't that according which gospel has that I mean that's the one which I like you know I mean and it's basically the same and Mark doesn't have anything at that right but it's the same idea of you Co you I mean that one that you mentioned why is Thou forsaken me that that made me think about how Socrates deal talks about death in the fedo and and he says if one has been uh practicing death their whole life why should they fear when it finally comes around and right before he dies or Jesus dies he says why Thou forsaken me wait a second you're taken out of Contex you're taken out of context no no no I don't want to die no if you go back to the psalm that he quoting or the mythographer is quoting that Psalm ends up quite happily if I remember rightly so in fact um I don't know what can you do with that quote why forsaken me the quote is from a Psalm so whoever wrote that is you have to take it back into context I kind on which Psalm I'll find out next week not go no I'm saying my God my God why why has Thou forsaken in me is a quote back to a certain Psalm so you have to look at that Psalm because that's just a reference that's a quick way and at the end of that Psalm as far as I know is happy so he's it is not a cry of when we look at it out of context we look at it as a cry of Despair but when we actually look at the end of that Psalm we see that no it's a cry of Victory interesting that's one way that's one way of dealing with it put it in the context of the Psalms uh in in the F in the fat however it would be uh see the only time you offer up a is when to escalus is when there's been a cure so therefore the last Act of Socrates or the last words he's making is that hey crto there must have been some cure going on here and if so uh weo a cockus galus we oh by the way not I we and that's one of the interesting features about the fatos conclusion why did he get Credo and why does he include the word we pardon sentence a victory a victory a cure that's right that's a victory about to die he says there's going on Pardon right before he's about to die yes yes that was the last words but couldn't we just makes me think of the purification process talked about in that dialogue like he's about to if he's about to take the trip upwards out of his body then he's letting go of the final attachments if there are any no no you're quite right then it would be better if it were it would be better if it were I owe a to escalus please make sure it's paid that's why it's interesting we it's we not I if his ego has disappeared and got into the union with it whatever it is the one then surely it is we because he realizes this is MHM the one like we're all together in this one yeah I don't think he got over his ego well of course that's the issue you know is the man just a blatantly a super ego or inflated ego and I imagine one could say that about all religious leaders they're all suit they all have an inflated ego the question is whether or not it's hot air or not of course they're inflated some rise to 8 n ft just going back to see it until later but going back to the idea that is the Del borle is something of the state is um that I'm surprised that believe and and those people didn't go along with the fact that if Socrates is so there is no one wiser than what he is in fact doing would be that which would be representing what the Del cor was follow yeah if he didn't say if he didn't say that he's going to try to disprove it well he does try to disprove it pardon me he he does yeah so it seems like they should be upset with that well therefore he doesn't believe in the god of the Del Oracle usually belief usually means that you agree with the pronouncement you go along with it not that you try to disprove it can you imagine the Old Testament that one of the Prophet saying you know I'm going to disprove this so he should have gone along and believed it he should I didn't say that I didn't say that he his his vision is the opposite yeah I know but malus would have said you should have gone along and believ that no one is wise or Socrates if that's what the is saying and you should believe that and since you didn't you didn't believe in the gods of the state believes in therefore he's guilty yeah when he says when the crows we owe a payment is this again another one of those like Universal absolute um sacrifices cuz like there's a cure like it's a cure for him or is a cure for all of us well you want to deal with the we yes so do I there are many ways of of trying to understand that yeah and um yeah just for a interesting thing is that like Jesus there's no parallel or Krishna he has his mystical experiences from the time he's a child he has these voices whereas let's say Muhammad only had his first mystical experience when he was 40 so he um and as I said there other two people come to mine immediately their stories is that both Jesus and Krishna appear to have had their you know discussions with the one very early in life whereas others you know late BL yeah but he Socrates appears to have handled it quite differently than those figures going going going about the we're only we're only in touch with what their mythographers I mean you could say Plato is uh Luke or Matthew or whatever to Socrates yeah but Plato shows the method in the way he writes of questioning dialogue coming to conclusions from possible premises he has a meth does it very clearly right but I'm saying that we don't know how much of that is Plato how much of it is historical Socrates so I take the story and say well this story is what I'll analyze without caring about what portion is historical what portion because it is a story that is a teaching story that's right mhm that's right he sets up there are many people who do that they take it ahistorically and they don't root it into history that's right that's right and and since uh one of the arguments against that is the fact since he puts so much concern with u particular particular things that are occurring in a society at a particular time he does he himself has an interest in his own history and therefore somehow you have to balance the two but to the degree that significant data is external to the dialogue it's to that degree if it's significant and not part of the dialogue to that degree it's a weak dialogue so I certainly think that it's often worthwhile finding out what historians have have been able to contribute to it but to the degree that what they find is significant and essential to understanding the dialogue to that degree Plato's Vision was lacking and I haven't seen that yet but I do think it can support it can add interesting features to it okay thank you we will play once more thank you [Applause] [Music] [Music] oh

Channel: PostNothingness

Views: 1,874

Keywords: Philosophy

Id: 6kqV8sZTVk0

Length: 73min 34sec (4414 seconds)

Published: Thu Jan 22 2015