PART 2: Prince Andrew & Epstein Interview Body Language Analyzed (2020)

leaving with that it's probably smart to just leave with it yeah go what - we can't what gives us a baseline right that's true that's true and then you can even show the other part where he's talking about London and his hands are going up or if you really want to to show what he's normally like when he's not under scrutiny but his personal life this little Co vid thing man my hair my hair is that I control Mike always unbelievable looks like I've got some kind of disease those wait up game they just created my Mars kept big that thing is yeah you need to come to me for advice around that I've come yes I can't believe I'm talking about my hair should be talking about my nose that's the part that scares the kids that huge nose already yeah I'm Scott rouse my body language expert analyst a trained law enforcement in the military interrogation body language mark ma Boden I'm an expert in human behavior and body language help people all over the world stand out win trust gain credibility whenever they speak including some members of British aristocracy excellent Greg I'm Greg Hartley I'm a former Army interrogator resistance to interrogation instructor interrogation instructor I've got about 10 books on body language and behavior and I talked to business corporate America and wall street excellent chase I'm chase use I retired from the military I teach interrogation and behavior profiling and influence to government and civilian organizations and I'm also a trial consultant excellent all right what we're going to continue with our breakdown of Prince Andrew's body language in his interview and but at the before we begin that Greg's come has found a piece of video that we're going to talk about we'll take a look at and then we'll talk about it for a second Prince Andrew has spent his entire life in the spotlight not least when he married Sarah Ferguson and when they separated six years later the Duchess of York talked about feeling it alone and not being prepared for royal life when she first married Yugi think lessons have been learned now that will make it easier in the future I would like to think that lessons have been learned because my goodness think some lessons did need learning that memories sometimes can be quite short so a challenge are challenged I think if anything if those sorts of those were when it happens again which wish it will do with William and Harry then I suspect there will be a lot of people like their father and their uncle making sure that they're not necessarily they're fully aware but people around them are fully aware of the consequences of getting it wrong despite the divorce the Duke of York has maintained an extremely close relationship with his ex-wife so we think Gregg yes a handful of things to look at in his baseline this is a baseline with him being probed in his personal life again as well so we get to see what's normal for him nothing to lie about but you can see that his focus is internal when he gets to the personal and he breaks eye contact and goes to an internal conversation he's talking but he's not really making eye contact as he navigates it's not releasing everything the other really good thing to watch here this is 2010 he uses his brow a hell of a lot to talk I do the same thing and residuals occur when you use those muscles over and over and over unless you Botox then we leave wrinkles and you can see it in his forehead now you can see his forehead constantly moving and that browbeating thing he does is left behind that we can't know what's going on in his head but we can use this as a baseline to look forward to the future and know that it's a personal issue so we've got a good start point here okay excellent what do you guys think mark yeah so I would agree and I think it's probably a good baseline on how he performs when he is holding back some elements of information because if we look at his speech patterns he's not being you know verbally you know fully expressive I would say it's clearly holding back information or couching in from so I would take it as a good baseline for him and when he he's couching information they're also the other baseline I take from this is he says a challenge a challenge and that would feel to me like he's suggesting he's stopped talking he's done but if you shut up he just keeps on going so one of the things as an interviewer is to never take those you know reiterations as a signal to go for a new question if you shut up as the interviewer he'll just keep on spilling the beans that makes sense in America yeah in the beam yeah well you think Jason that's absolutely true and there's another technique while you're interviewing if someone does the challenge thing you just repeat a couple of the last words that they said the verbal reflection or verbal mirroring as they teach at the FBI that really gets it out of them and you can see this this happens a couple of times in the interview and we see another baseline for this lip-licking hygienic gesture and you even see it at the very beginning of this clip right before he kisses his wife at their wedding even and we saw a couple of more things the the face wrinkles that Greg talks about we called in my training I call that expression itching so it just edges over time but we also see he makes eye contact the same way a lot of charismatic people do which is 50% of the time while we're speaking and 70% of the time while we're listening so he does that a lot if you go watch bill Bill Clinton on Conan O'Brien get interviewed about his first job he ever had you'll see him look down at the ground and smile while he's recollecting the memory but we have a good baseline here so we see some of the behaviors that might look stressful in a different scenario now we understand our are different excellent and what I'm seeing is I'm always talking about loping and it's how when you tell a story you start talking just local that's what we're seeing here we're seeing a baseline if it was eloping alone and we don't see that at all in this in this interview it's nowhere to be found in there I've been looking for it it's one of my favorite things to to judge things from which you get a base on their loping at what the sound like a and looked like nothing in there after he starts this interview so for me and his attitude of course is a lot different as well you know he's out all he's not all stressed but that's but he's we seem relaxed not that he shouldn't be relaxed in this you know not that he should be relaxed in this other interview because he's being everything's on the line there but she's more of an interrogator and this lady what a great job she does I know I keep saying than my goodness and these examples are gonna see we're gonna see an example of what she ordered the pizza part where she asked him a question he talks about and she turns around and asks it again she does it almost every doubt every question that she Stokes just she's so good at that so good at it so let's let's get started with question one a junior Roberts who has made allegations against you she says she met you in 2001 she says she dined with you danced with you at ramp nightclub in London she went on to have sex with you in a house in Belgravia belonging to girl and Maxwell your friend your response I have no recollection of ever meeting this lady none whatsoever you don't remember meeting hasn't so uh chase you're gonna say something for Easter before you watch that what are we gonna say about that video we just we watched beforehand right at the beginning of the interview if you've heard of micro-expressions before it's basically just a tiny quick facial expression and there is a beautiful example there it's a it's a wonderful teachable moment for anybody that's watching right as she says when you guys got married or words to that effect you can see the sneer on the left side of her face where she shows contempt for the prince in that moment you can see the side of her face tighten up so when you see like a one-sided smile that's what a contempt facial expression look like and it's the only facial expression that is asymmetrical excellent okay so let's talk about what we're seeing in this in this first one she questions him here about Virginia Roberts mark what do you see him yeah so I actually want to go to his strategy here because he foreshadowed this strategy as we talked about in our first so together when he said that's the bit that I remember suggesting that there will in the future be elements that he does not remember and so I would suggest here he's now on his rehearsed piece he's already strategized I'm gonna say I don't remember this I don't recall that and so I think that's what we're seeing playing out here is a strategy what I'm interested in is what can we detect underneath that because this is rehearsed for him this is his moment so I'm wondering from everybody else how's he doing Craig you want that one yeah not so well so number one he's got that problem of steepling and his hands are in his lap so he can't go any further down to show that he has been compromised so he starts to mill his hands and do some walking thing with his hands that's energy you're trying to escape the body I want to get my rear end out of this chair and out that door but I can't so I'm going to try to find a place to go right in through here and it could it's harder to see in this but pay very close attention through its pupils they don't just dilate a pinpoint again that is stress your eyes start moving when your actual pupils start to move that's a really good indicator of stress levels the last one that I've really intention to not only is he dropped his jaw to cover his throat but his jaw recesses and his upper lip drops I almost think he looks like he wants to cry for a split second there that little micro expression looks like a little boy he does he looks like he's on the carpet mom has gotten him for doing something in his what do you got chase yeah so that pupil dilation this is a rare thing to see in these video interviews because this cameras super high-def the angles really great and pupil dilation is something you look for only when there's a steady lighting conditions the lighting conditions are changing that's obviously probably due to the lights so this is a perfect setup so if you go back and watch this clip you can see that people start changing in another thing you can see from over his shoulder is his breathing rate starting to increase you can see that shoulder going up and down and another one just for the small clip you can also get his pulse by looking at his legs towards the end and I think back to what Mark said about this thing whole thing being rehearsed that's the reason we're seeing him nod and say yep yep yep he's just he's saying I've done that yep I've prepared for this I've prepared for this he's nodding in anticipation of the next step of his plan right so I want to jump in here and just add reiterate on this this isn't stress because he wasn't expecting this question like this isn't stress because he's going what am I gonna say here he's got it planned this is stress about something else that's what's important Scott here's a place to talk about the thing this guy if you think he's stupid you're stupid because this guy is brilliant this is methodical and he has a process driven approach and Scott I know you can talk more to this I call it chaff and redirect yeah I'm gonna lean lead so much stuff behind me that you'll chomp at one of those and the minute you do I'll take you there and he is yeah he's great he's a great storyteller that's what makes it so good he's seen a lot of stuff he's got a lot of history behind and he's heard people tell stories he's got to learn the stories of the history of the royal family he's got to know all that stuff so he's been hanging around people who tell stories great and he's become a great storyteller now there's a guy named Yuri Hasson and he said I think it's Purdue he's the guy that did the studies on the brain and storytelling and what he found was brains well your brain will sink or connect with someone else's brain and hang on as you tell him a story it happens very quickly I won't get into the details of the studies either but they're fascinating Yuri Hass and leave it's Purdue so if you want to learn about that for somebody once once I read that that's a great it's a great thing to check out so that's what he's doing here that's why these things as we know why stories are good in marketing they're good in all kinds of things that's why he started he puts these almost in story form as you go along you'll see him so he can hop from one thing to the other and like Trump went as as Greg's point out before in Trump says something and he wants to that's it I've said there is he goes it's that tag he's tagging but it's not tagging but he's marking his those spots where he's completed something like Mark was saying by it by saying mm-hmm her okay or when it were those words were you saying that's exactly what he's doing there and to chase his point when we're talking about micro-expressions we talked about the dilation the dilation when she he gets the part he said she says talks about Virginia and having the that when she says against you when she says you that's when that that's when those they get small and they started getting bigger because his pupil so you see em gets mom and started getting bigger that's when the big one hits and Steve she says she met UNC you she says she met you indents to you she says she may even bend and then it's the same time if you'll notice that I'll show this when we go back he's getting a lot of nostril flare it really small really small we're gonna talk about micro-expressions this get up inside and talk about the micro parts very small but I'll show her that as well it's the same thing Steam's accuses Virginia Roberts has made up scenes accusers Virginia Roberts your has made up scenes accusers Virginia Roberts it hasn't me on the larger side when he thought when he starts he does what what what I refer to as fading facts as he's talking if you ask them a question somebody questions you like the car on fire the gothicassle house on fire that killed the kid in the house and they say well I wasn't there I don't know what you're talking about it usually that time of day we go to the park and as the more they talk the less the quieter gets he's shown he's unsure about this answer and I believe he knows something's up there's somewhere there's some more information about this girl in him that's gonna pop up later somewhere I don't know what but he knows that that's what but he's still taking that chance he can't say here's what I know here's what I did you know so we're seeing those feigning facts is he's lying but he's pretending he's telling the truth but he's but you see it quite as it goes along as he tries to distance himself from that lie so alright anybody else hae-won's one thing I will add the last thing the pupil dilation and pinpoint when I worked seer that was the only place it was common you don't see that very much in people because if they're shocked often their people may dilate but and then go back to pinpoint but really the pinpoint and opening that's a rare thing to see not just chase in an interview with a camera but in people in general you just don't see it off Chase pointed that out yesterday when we were talking about that when he gets the part what's this Virginia Tech Bank but nobody gets to you they then start getting zeroing in it's it's I'll show it up close because it's fascinating what's going on in here now have you had the tag on the name and I think we should talk about that but that to me it's weird to watch them move because you just don't see it yeah yeah here we go I'm just trying to work this out because you said you went to break up the relationship and yet you stayed at that New York mansion several days I'm wondering how I was doing a number of other things while I was there but you were staying at the house it was convicted sex offender it was a convenient place to stay there's I mean I mean I've gone through this in my mind so many times at the end of the day with the benefit of all the hindsight that one could have it was definitely the wrong thing to do but at the time I felt it was it was the honorable and right thing to do and I admit fully that that my judgment was probably colored by my tendency to be too honorable but that's just the way it is all right Greg you wanna go first yeah guys hopefully I'll still need his thunder but this is my single favorite moment of the entire video because he is frail here this is the most frail you'll see him throughout the entire interview this is a Maricopa if there is one anywhere hey I did something stupid and if you just said that it probably would have come across just fine but instead definitely the wrong thing his body language is showing that we talk about eye movement a lot but one to note is it when people get emotional there may be heavy lunk of a head drifts down into the right and you will see he is kind of balled up but he is gesturing and illustrating what he's thinking his head is down to the right his eyes are down to an internal conversation and then his brow is down his concentration he is looking over for some for some approval and his eyes are not his eyelids at this point are not fluttering I I'll use your term chasing and and follow it his shutter speed his processor is running it's not eyelid fluttered its processor and then he looks up at her and request approval as he tries to salvage some dignity this is a two-step process he's saying hey here's this horrible thing I did it was done he's working through the mechanics of it and trying to find at least a scrap of dignity in the background and saying I guess I was too honorable I think it's trying to recover some of what he should be it's the most for a moment in the entire video to me I think chase I completely agree with Greg and this is this is a great humble brag but I think it's also going into the narrative it's going into his narrative and we see a shoulder shrug the moment that he says and we we see when he's trying to gain a little bit of approval we see the eyebrow flash and a head tilt we expose our necks to people when we want to be trusting when we're curious about something and protecting us from big cats was our original reason we had to raise our shoulders and that was from old Joe Navarro and that whole that whole time throughout the interview you every time he gets a question he knows he's prepared for or he knows that it's gonna be tough you see the large upper chest inhale before he answers every time mark what do you get yeah so I want to hit on one thing here which is one of the ways he tries to get compliance here and move this away so we know that this is a hot spot for him because he wants to move on and he says I've been through this in my own head so many times so what he said thing is I've already thought about this can we just move on because I've already thought about this I've done the processing we don't need to talk about this in the open I've thought about it and then from there because that doesn't succeed because the interviewer doesn't go oh okay yeah I'm sorry you've already thought about this what haven't you thought about what would you like to talk about that doesn't happen she's silent it has to move on and so that's why he has to go there in two you know I think that's a great idea that takes the humblebrag or the virtue signaling yes it's a big signal to say I just you know - honorable - honorable that they're extraordinary that's his ego because as he's going through there and I think he's thought about that before we can streak and stick that in and that's that ego coming out because what he's trying to do when he comes out of there as he tell as he's talking he's open he's safe but you'll notice when he first knows his illustrator's when he's open you'll see that foot come up as the barrier it goes down fairly quickly but still it's up guarding us he's being as he's supposedly being open so and I think that's what that is this is ego getting out of hand it sort of gives you an idea about what kind of person you're dealing with there nurse again we're dealing here Scott with somebody who doesn't have any advisors around them right now because a decent adviser would have heard that from him and gone you know yeah actually you're wrong highness you're not gonna say that here's exactly what you're gonna say you are going to take responsibility for an element of this and and therefore deflect from the element which you're not going to take responsibility for but you are gonna take responsibility and chases talked about this a number of times which is building somebody a bridge to get out of this situation yeah now this interviewer I don't think he's building many bridges and that's what's great about it but it's not that you can't build your own bridge out of this he's not taking the advice on that and so that's why we're gonna see this become a disaster for him ultimately in that you know not to spoil the plots of this but he ends up essentially resigning the next day due to all of this and one thing you notice when he says I've thought a lot about this if you go back and listen he says he only thought about it after it became public right he says as soon as well after everybody knew about it exactly what he says right that's it I don't know if we covered that one that's one of the best lines in the entire thing I thought so too I wanted to make sure we we at least put a little thump back in yelling I'm just trying to work this out because you said you went to break up the relationship and yet you stayed at that New York mansion several days I'm wondering how I was doing a number of other things while I was there but you were staying at the house it was convicted sex offender it was a convenient place to stay there's I mean I mean I've gone through this in my mind so many times at the end of the day with the benefit of all the hindsight that one could have it was definitely the wrong thing to do but at the time I felt it was it was the honorable and right thing to do and I admit fully that that my judgment was probably colored by my tendency to be too honorable but that's just the way it is very good another guest was Jon Brockman the literary agent now he described seeing you there getting a foot massage from a young Russian woman did that happen no you're absolutely sure you can't remember absolutely sure so Jon Brockman's statement is false I wouldn't I wouldn't I don't know mr. Brockman so I don't know what he's talking about but that definitely wasn't you getting a foot massage from a Russian girl in Jeffrey Epstein cells know it all right yeah so now it doesn't sound like you know you think foot massage is not a big deal but when you see I watched the first episode of this Epstein thing Greg and I both when you see that first episode you'll realize why that's an important part here oh that's a that's a key to what to what's happened in that house you know and some other things that I see going along of course you've got that head tip tuck but when you see is when you pay attention to his blink rate I don't want to step on your chase because I know a lot of times but everybody covers the same things we try to stay on each other's way so if I'm not stepping on your blink rate thing it's it plummets I think he blinks three times to this whole thing because he's making sure she's believing him so he has to add in qualifiers and and then you start looking at he never says no when she asked me she says so Brockman in other words so Brockman is lying he never says now he starts he starts talking but he never says no it says of course one of the biggies from that and his movement compared overall and this thing is almost like a statue compared the way he isn't there in the rest of the interview it doesn't move hardly at all he does so but not not much at all so I think that's important as well because he's taken in all that information the only thing I didn't see and there was his eyes get really big which what I kept I kept expecting that as you'll see when somebody get him he's got the head turn as it's gone but he doesn't the eyes don't get really big you know but all this after that big fake surprise he throws on right well I think that's his big eye movement right he's must be yeah yeah that's so keep going Greg ready go yeah yeah for me this is the classic overreaction right if you don't know someone at all and I mentioned them you don't go oh he was there I don't know this guy but I'm reacting that way well something caused you to cue that's one of the biggest of reactions in the entire video is that crazy shock with the eye thing puts his head forward leans it down his pupils actually closed in this one chase I'm sure you've noticed better than I did but his pupils actually closed very very tightly in here his eyes are all in he's got a conspicuous retreat and then he makes eye contact solidly when he goes to the note and it's one of the emphatic knows in this entire thing I think they're about three that are emphatic denials and this is one because this I think you're hitting it dead on Scott because this is the gateway when you watch what Epstein did his creepy factor starts this way so that's I think what you chase what do you get I think the surprise was genuine and I think it might be in reaction to oh crap that guy said something or maybe I didn't know yeah I mean you can see if we go back you can see the sclera the the white part of our eyeballs above and below the iris the little colored circle which which is kind of hard to fake especially if you're under a lot of stress and we see if anybody watching this if I accused you of doing something that you didn't do you'd say that statements absolutely false we none of us would have a problem calling someone else a liar if it was false and then again if I have guilty knowledge about something then a foot massage sounds really dirty but if it's just a foot massage and I don't feel guilty about anything else out what's the harm in saying yeah it was me I was getting a foot massage yeah and you'll see it like a game you'll see the importance of that and that in that Netflix thing in the Epstein so we got mark yeah so I think he's he's performing over the surprise in order to try to create another narrative there which is curiosity I think as exactly as we've said so far he's genuinely surprised by that either because it's hey I didn't think that guy would say anything or what you've got a witness and and and my the thing I want to get across to you you know listening to this is if you're gonna lie you've got to make sure there isn't any evidence out there because the evidence is going to show up at some point lying is for the lazy lying is for the people who don't want to take the punishment right now for what they've done okay because the evidence is showing up later maybe in your life maybe in somebody else's lifetime but it's showing up it coming out unfortunately here there is an eyewitness who is is is alive now and as talked so now what's his way out of this it's incredible it's it's well I don't know him the idea that if I don't know somebody it means they could be a liar that's his logic and if we unpack that logic we see that it's it's it's Riza bull it's laughable that's not accurate that if you don't know somebody it means they're probably a liar so I think we know he's he's he's fried now this is now going one way and it's all downhill from here for him he's not in control of this I agree and I think I I think what that big fake what was he's trying to catch his surprise at that point because it shows he's probably I don't know if this guy angers easily or not I would bet from seeing that he probably does because I think it got away from and he was trying to catch it on what instead of instead of being showing his anger he showed that he does it twice he does it twice in this interview that's same exactly I movement later when they're talking about Florida I believe is when he does it again is that the one where he's talk I'll find it but it's one where he's talking about because I was there was a dinner that I was there that part there's a lousy narky and sarcastic will you know what that reminds me of his judge smiles from Caddyshack [Laughter] god I was thinking as I was good I thought I'll drop that in there because that's not that'd be too cornball play you know what that scholarship do you I guess I don't you do yeah and you know one quick teachable moment we can we can share with our viewers here is at this point if you're ever asking somebody questions and they don't know how much data you have this is when we would do something called a punishment question or a baked question the bait question specifically starts with the words just real quick and easy is there any reasons and that's all ego ever so we're not going to say I have a bunch of evidence we're not gonna say anything but is there any reason that somebody would have come forward just yesterday and said that they saw you do X Y & Z and one quick tip with the bait questions is we raise the stakes in the beginning so we say listen John I really like you and I just want you to think very hard before you answer this question and then towards the end we want to be a little bit vague because if I say is there any reason someone saw you do this at 9:02 p.m. and you did it at 9:00 then you could say no there's no way another great opportunity to teach something you just said right there's a thing called we know all and I you know I may have a file full of garbage and I can say ya know that you did something the minute I nail down a fact that isn't true we go from we know all that we don't know anything right and that's the point the more finite you are with your bluff the more danger you're in yeah and another when I think Solaris is when you add too much information too many small things it's like geez I don't know for example if you were to say would be any reason whatsoever yeah that little pause for your DNA to be that you know I'm talking about hair eyelashes skin cells maybe you spit and you caught all these things you never find but you throw all these things out there thinking and you could see them run in that scenario on their in their head as well as you keep going down that road and you're just throwing out the bait the bait question that's one of my favorites that's why I like three techniques so much I know I talk about that love it's like you're doing it's like a muscle car you know you could put all what ties you want flames on the side paint whatever possible from two people let's at one point because you get so good at your own version I think yeah that's that's what the keys the four of us worked well together is our body language versions are so different because we come at it from different angles it's what makes this whole interrogation and lie detecting and body language thing a great second career damn yeah all right everybody good yeah did you worry that he had something that could compromise you know yeah do you regret that trip yes she provided a photo of the two of you together yes your arm was around her waist yes you've seen the photos I've seen the photograph how do you explain that are you I go first mark yeah so we could also baseline that with some of the yeses that he gave earlier around places that he pin as well and we talked about those in the in the first episode and it let's just look at it simply let's just say you've got upward intonation and downward intonation I mean it's a little more complex than that but let's make it really simple you know there's the rising tone yeah which which often consider a signal an idea of there's something coming next or that's a question not a statement there's another another bunch of things well let's keep it relatively simple so so his his nose or yeses will tend to illustrate that there is probably something else there and it is not emphatic and emphatic no will be no an emphatic yes will be yes in fact loud and downward intonation we tend to call command tonality which I'm doing for you right now and questioning tonality will be up like this and suggests the southern coming next which is why it kind of keeps you on this kind of hiatus and and gets quite annoying after a while if I carry on making statements but having that works for heads while he's doing that I love it yeah yeah so so let me leave it at that because I just think it's it's it's a good teachable element to just see tonality in simple forms of there's up or there's down and down be seen as more decisive and up could be seen as as something more to come or I don't quite know excellent taste where you get if you're about to get hit and you know someone's about to hit you you're gonna turn your head and look at them and with everything here if if we know somebody who turns out to be a disgusting human being like Epstein you're will be comfortable saying it will be comfortable saying the act will be comfortable saying the person's name will be comfortable saying it's disgusting I hate it I denounce all of those things which never happens once in this video and it culminates with what I think here is one of the key factors that that runs this whole thing when she says are you worried he had something that he could use to ruin your reputation his whole bodies frozen there's a tiny no and maybe they're the verbal stuff isn't there but the rest of the evidence throughout the entire conversation really does spell out that if I'm worried that there's a video that might get leaked somewhere I will definitely not I'm not going to talk about that person in a negative light ever and I can't I can't ever I can never denounce what they do what they did and I'm gonna use their name as little as possible in the interview bring his little attention to the person who has a gun pointed up my head as possible excellent okay what do you get yeah so this one's really easy for me everything else aside all that's great and all that is true and that's the compounding but no one who is not concerned does this were you concerned no I mean look at his brow look how knit and tight and squared down it is imagine somebody looking at human singing happy birthday like this what would you think he's communicating stressed and concerned with his brow and it is knitted and knotted and that's good enough for me that if I didn't have any sound I would know something is wrong right there excellent did you worry that he had something that could compromise you do you regret that trip yes she provided a photo of the two of you together yes your arm was around her waist yes you've seen the photos I've seen the first girl how do you explain that excellent I've got nothing to add to that except for is this it's just really quiet cuz you know suggests we're seeing deception all right here we go do you remember dancing at [ __ ] no that couldn't have happened because the date that there's being suggested I was at home with the children Mikey go ahead [Music] well let's go back to that tonality let's just say that if I'm giving an emphatic no do you remember dancing at [ __ ] no no so that elongation of it now I think the elongation is because he's ramping up to his strategy and this is he's already got this sorted out it's not possible to dance a [ __ ] because you're having pizza at Peter express with you kids so it's just he's moving into strategy yeah that's why there's that funny tonality right chase where you get this is where the interviewer asked him do you remember instead of did it happen and that is you're giving them a permission slip to just say yes or no and what we'd like to say we know that this whole thing is gonna play off memory so we're going to say why would she say this or what happened that evening tell me about this entire day where were you and did you do it and this is also an argument or a denial from recollection it's not a denial it's a denial of recollection though keep in mind he's not denying that it happened he's just saying the date might be wrong at this point okay great yeah for me he's he's on his plan we talked about yesterday or in the earlier version he's on his plan he knows what he's going to say here he's just prepped nope nope it's just a kind of a flip but no I don't hear I don't see anything dramatic all I see is him ready for battle he knows that he's already prepared a I was with my kids yeah I hear again I'm just seeing fading facts I mean that's the big one that sticks out for me as he's talking just gets quieter as it goes along cuz uh which is another side of deception do you remember dancing at [ __ ] no that couldn't have happened because the date that there's being suggested I was at home with the children all right everybody good okay you know that you were at home with the children was it a memorable night on that particular day that that we now understand is the date which is the 10th of March I was at home I was with the children I'd taken beatrice to a pizza express in working for a party at a I suppose sort of four or five in the afternoon and then because the Duchess was away we have a simple rule in the in the family that when one's away the other ones there I was on terminal leave at the time from the Royal Navy so therefore I was at home all right chase you I go first sure this is what I would I call an over answer so someone makes a denial and says no I I didn't drive to that convenience store in rabaa but I actually I Drive a Ford Explorer it's about a year old it's black and just got it vacuumed out a few weeks ago and I also park it in Reverse in my driveway so no couldn't have happened so we're just adding unnecessary detail to something to help help the answer sound more credible and more full of information for the person listening right I totally agree with you because what he's doing is building that picture like you got to take out of your head and give to somebody else and your act so they're on the impression you actually see all this stuff happening hmm as they realized they had these qualifiers - what's going on Greg what do you got yeah exactly guess that is an inject that is information he's packaged he's prepared if you notice his baseline is pretty humid it's normal he's rhythmic he's telling a story and all of those details are there to support and there's a word that people don't commonly use to close out a story therefore that's his proposal as to why he couldn't have done it yeah because you want your brain to go on and fill all that in that's right yeah that's it that's a summation that's a Salander she was talking not him right that's the way people talk when they're presenting their case yeah all right mark what do you got yeah so virtue signaling there you know on the hands-on dad that's this is the arrangement that we have with the Duchess so so that would be his ex-wife the kid's mother but you know most people would probably go so we've got this arrangement with the kid's mother you know if they're divorced or or there aren't actually quite good terms so even more likely fact you know Sarah and I have an arrangement because of the Duchess and then goes on to say terminal leave from the Royal Navy okay so we know you're a vice admiral we understand that you maybe don't need to tell us the name of the institution that you are in service and the Vice Admiral of so for me it's you know as we've talked about before and I think you know maybe chase coined this this term is is is reading out the resume it's it's it's signaling that resume and and and that's quite a hot signal of potentially overcompensation for something now let me ask you guys something we've all been young men before when you went out what time did you start going to clubs what time did you start going out when you were looking for chicks man what when were you going out by what time was that 9:15 yeah at least yeah I mean in London in London it's it's you know you've got to go out after the pubs shut anyway because you don't want to get caught up in the 10:30 11:00 mail a [ __ ] goes till well late I mean it is renowned for going later than anything else so if their house get in at the princess house he's not by himself he's gonna have somebody there to watch the kids he's gonna go I'm gonna step out for a little bit I'll be right back I'm gonna go out see what's going on so on so Sal's what his excuse is gonna be she's out of town and this guy's out you know he's out go he's going because he's covered at that point you know so he says at four or five o'clock or whatever no nobody's gonna go out four or five o'clock those people are him up yet you know I have a mission in place and then right what did you do well I went back from I guarantee if you if you nailed him down where we left the Pizza Express and then went home and went to bed then four or five it's not it's not the time when you go to [ __ ] [ __ ] is next off thought of a Mason they do high tea so if you're looking for high tea thought in the Mason will do it for you there's no dancing there you have to go next door to [ __ ] you know midnight on words boy good catch dancing okay yeah yeah and also you see him you've seen the self soothing things you see him it's trying to calm himself down his hands it's not huge but if you'll watch it it goes from very light to getting just a little bit more as he starts as it starts rubbing his thumb there what are you going on that chase anything yeah so that's this with the self soothing behavior aside from what I already said our good friend Joe Navarro has one of my favorite phrases and it's small enough to fit on a bumper sticker but it was profound when I heard it and he said any repetitive behavior is self soothing and that's all you need to know I mean I always call that you're making familiar the unfamiliar when you're in a bad place and you want to make yourself comfortable everybody does something tug your ear play with your hair pick your nails whatever it is it makes you comfortable pacing and that's all these okay thanks why would you remember that so specifically why would you remember a pizza express birthday and because going to Pizza Express in Woking is an unusual thing for me to do a very unusual thing for me to do I've never been I've only been to working a couple of times and I remember it weirdly distinctly but as soon as somebody reminded me of it oh yes I remember that so I have no recollection of ever meeting or being in the company or the presence okay mark that cheers really they yeah so going to Peter Express is a weird thing to do that's condescending because he's Peter Express in the UK is a is a quite a nice place for fairly ordinary people to go to so what he's doing there is trying to get a a laugh of recognition out of the interviewer to say somebody like me would never go to Peter Express so it's very very rare but the smile we see from him doesn't have the narrowing of the eyes and doesn't have therefore these darker areas appear there so he's trying to get compliance he doesn't truly mean the smile which is why he doesn't get a laugh back or a nod of recognition because it is true it is a weird place for His Royal Highness to show up a piece of expressible I was at Heathrow Express and you know suddenly you know Prince Charles sat down next to me I would be like well this is very very notable and odd so yes it is odd he's trying to get compliance from the interviewer and a laugh out of her but what gives it away is it's not a true Duchenne smile it's not true pleasure it's one of those slightly forced come on laugh along with me join in smiles alright Greg what do you get yeah I take a step further I'd say it's a contained controlled kind of a snarky smile and almost a criticism of of the whole thing right look I'm low classing myself I'm debasing myself by going there and we all know it exactly like you said mark but then there's that contained and curving down controlling the smile almost like he's self amused so yeah I think that's why she doesn't respond because he looks self-amused chase yeah I think that smile was I'm pretty damn pleased with myself right now yeah and me too if an you could join me but here's the one thing that I got out of this that I think it's easy to miss and I think this is the one thing that pulls everything together if the reason he doesn't remember is because it didn't happen then he'd be comfortable saying it didn't happen and here's why if he remembers every detail of going to the pizza place because it was an unusual event let's go back I remember the pizza place because it was unusual if he remembers unusual events with great clarity meeting this woman and dancing with her and then later having sex with her would be an unusual event so either a he makes a firm denial that that's unusual I would remember it it never happened ever or be that's just not a you that's just a usual event doing things like that become something that's usual so here's a place where I I may have a different opinion on this one this is a good opportunity for us I think he is has a prepared denial and the reason he comes back at the end with the statement I remembered that but I don't remember her I think it's part of his strategy and his prepared statement chase and I would say either is possible because we can't the cool thing about what we do is we can't see inside their heads right but what we can do is see the symptoms it's one or the other I feel like he's got a strategy and he's trying to grasp at it and hold on and go back and repeat this I completely agree every one of those things and he just didn't hide them right so I mean either a you make a hundred-percent denial or be you don't remember because it's something you do all the time and that's honest right so this points to me around being a good liar you know for anybody out there always a perfect how to be a good liar but if you're gonna be a good liar not only do you need to sort out your details but you must sort out your internal logic your internal logic must be foolproof around this because anybody with it with a decent questioning power will just undo the logic and then the story's gonna is is gonna fall apart in front of you but let's assume for a minute this is a good discussion so hopefully it's useful for what we're doing let's assume for a minute he is lying out loud and saying I went to this pizza thing and then doing buy lie of omission the walkaway he is coached very well coached because he did in verbal bridge one time not once did he verbal bridge that's a great indicator you know that Navarro and Schaffer talk about verbal bridges it's their turn but all it means is hiding time and then after that those kinds of things don't show up in this conversation that shaft that words that mean absolutely nothing with an occasional drift word that you want to pick up on is everywhere and chase I get where you're going with that I feel more like he's just accomplished as a liar because he's been doing it for a while I'm not saying and by the way I'm not accusing and I'm not saying he is lying I'm saying they're signs of deception in that recovery for his story right well and I want to add to that what I think what he's doing is distracting and this may be very specific to a British public because this is really for the British public in that he's he's trying to save an element of the monarchy right now which happens in in British history you know every so often and what he's doing is giving us an image of the royal family a royal member in Pizza Express so that you know our cultural brains go whoa it's not odd what an odd image and we fixate on that rather than the logic of yeah but clamp is an opener four or five so i you've got you have people who look after your kids you've got security on you and security on them you can go out any time you like especially in the in the small hours of the morning or late at night it doesn't make chuckles sense this is a case of have a look at that weird squirrel over there come on look British public look over there at the same time at the end of this thing this is where I accused me and that he's been coached because and not just in this one not for this one section but overall here's what you do when you're being you know in other words hey man check it out here's what you do when you're gonna lie when you're setting something up keep this in mind and what he's been told is to remember every time that that girl's name comes up every time the situation comes up be sure and say I have no recollection up because at the end we get that head sideways and you almost like a gotcha moment jets in there with and I don't recollect whatever at the very end like he's almost laughing about it you know it's always yeah so that's that part where he's got you oh I gotta stick that in he's because he goes down it's almost like he's jabbing in there with it to add that in at the end so that's what tells me that that he said he said he's had great coaching this guy is so smart I don't mean he's not genius I don't think but yeah he's he's really smart and knows how to do that he's done it so well to this point but then again I got to give that better fewer what's her name mark um Maitlis Emily Emily Maitlis yeah she's she's really good that do not be you know have her role I mean what's interesting about her Cambridge educated I think Jesus College maybe but the only presenter of that particular show news night there's been female presenters before the only presenter who wasn't privately educated so and that will tell you one thing is she isn't going necessarily to fall for this status idea she's clean - right he's Canadian yeah she was born just up there up the road a little bit from here so Canadian British so he's is outside of that coterie those ranks of the aristocracy and royalty and so he's not going to comply so much so I do want to go back for just a second to what chase said there because I do think that's a great point you're talking to people if they don't remember something that is odd maybe it's not odd for them just in this case I think he's trying to stick to a story but I think often when you're interrogating or you're talking to someone and they can't remember details because they've done it so many times write subroutine there you go all right we good the world has now seen the photo that Virginia Roberts provided taken by Epstein we understand in Guerlain Maxwell's house here's the problem I've never seen Epstein with a camera in my life I think it was Virginia Roberts camera she said a little code at one that she lent to Epstein he took a photo and your arm I don't remember I don't remember that photograph ever being taken I don't remember going upstairs in the house because that photograph is taken upstairs and I'm not entirely convinced that I mean that is that is what I would describe as me and in that in that picture but I can't we can't be certain as to whether or not that's my hand on on her whatever it is left left side all right Greg what do you get yes so this is one of my favorites when we talk about people looking for a door he's certainly looking for a door he looks like he's tap dancing if you see the sole of one foot turns up the other is moving this is not anything to do with an artery that we've pointed out over and over this is I want to go somewhere he's moving around he's now nailed down this is starting to get to the point where you're getting something viable it's hard to say even says yes that's me clearly in the photo but if you're looking for a place both feet are active I don't remember that photo being taken that doesn't say the photo was never taken nobody took that photo me I mean if you asked me was I in the photo no I'd somebody must have photoshopped that I don't remember going upstairs ever going upstairs he goes on to say and that's upstairs well how the hell do you know scuse no English how do you know that's upstairs if you have never been upstairs you're assuming I guess I'm not entirely convinced that is an Falls very short of a note to me very short of her that's not me and he goes on I don't think we have it in this piece of video but he goes on to make a royal family reference immediately after this to put himself back at a higher status than everybody he's talking to and he says as a member of the royal family I don't often take photos and and all of those pieces coming together but like a guy who's looking for an out it's chaff it's a way to get away from everything and it's not a clear denial and some like we're not dealing with the Royal we hear when he's saying we don't know relight sure no I think that's he's he's he's taken some advice there from some photographic experts or advisors of some sort and the advisers have have said look we've looked at that we're looking at this and nobody can prove it's a fake so it could be a fake that's a weird piece of logic if you untangle it you know you can critically think that out very very easily but that's the coaching around this what's interesting is he goes outside of what I believe his coaching is on the camera piece because he jumps on it he jumps on it and he go in it I think what's happening he's going I've come up with a better argument around this which is and never will there's you know there's a there's a problem with that I've never seen Jeffrey Epstein with a camera expecting us to go oh well no oh I mean obviously yeah then you've never seen with the camera so that can't be a photograph of yours at all through this surely it's stupid little that can't be true right well she comes from it's not his it's somebody else's camera I mean so so he's fried by that piece of of I guess you know skill of the interviewer in there and then he goes back for his training I don't remember I don't remember suddenly it clicks in yes that's right they told me to keep saying don't remember just answer everything with I don't remember what an idiot I am I went for my own strategy there and it just got blown out of the water immediately that's what I think's going on inside it's a horrible car crash it's an awful awful car crash chase what do you got my favorite thing about this whole thing is that he never says it's not me doesn't make a denial but even cooler than that he does something called psychological distancing where he says that looks like quote somebody I would describe as me or that looks like what I would describe as me instead of that looks like me that looks like what I would describe as me that's a way I would describe myself but it might not be me we're still leaving a little ambiguity in there it's like he's looking at a police artists gift instead of a photo so I thought that was great that was a great great illustrator of what or how to listen for psychological distancing instead of just saying me he says that and when he is getting close to saying the woman's name at the end it just trails off all right the world has now seen the photo that Virginia Roberts provided taken by Epstein we understand in Guerlain Maxwell's house here's the problem I've never seen Epstein with a camera in my life I think it was Virginia Roberts camera she said a little code at one that she lent to Epstein he took a photo and your arm I don't remember I don't remember that photograph ever being taken I don't remember going upstairs in the house because that photograph is taken upstairs and I'm not entirely convinced that I mean that is that is what I would describe as me in in that in that picture but I can't we can't be certain as to whether or not that's my hand on her whatever it is left left side anybody else we good she made these claims in a u.s. deposition yeah are you saying you don't believe her she's lying that's a very difficult thing to answer because I'm not in a position to know what what she's trying to achieve but because I can tell you categorically I don't remember meeting her at all I do not remember a photograph being taken and I've said consistently and and frequently that we never had any sort of sexual contact whatever once again he's gone for that he's repeating the same that same thing all over again and the classic line that tells me that that he knows he's in trouble because he says and I always hate to bring up Anthony Weiner but Anthony Weiner's one of my favorite stuff to just weigh a lot but when he says I can tell you this he can't tell us anything else because we're gonna get him in trouble prison or whatever that's usually what happens but he said I can tell you this and that's the part that's gonna that that is gonna supposedly shows that he's not being deceptive that he's being that he's tell the truth I can tell you this why can't he tell us anything I can't tell us any more because if he does tell us any more if he tells Anita sides that he's gonna be in trouble what do you think about that chase well back just a few minutes ago he said he doesn't remember her and now he's talking about not having sex with him so that's that's a little change here and we also see obviously I'm sure everybody saw he's failing to answer the question completely any one of us any normal human being would say absolutely she's guilty of perjury she has perjured herself and none of that stuff is true and we see a little bit more psychological distancing here he's failing to you name of the victim and he's also saying sexual contact instead of sex so anybody who was accusing or an innocent person has no problem saying those words they have no problem saying the criminal type of words the more severe words to describe a crime what do you got Greg yeah so a few things you're dead on no denial at all first of all did you have sex with that woman no I'm gonna run over a couple but here is the Bill Clinton statement I have said consistently and frequently we had no sex we had never had any sexual contact whatever that's I did not have sexual relations with that woman miss Lewinsky that is his statement in the same way they have go Clinton did doesn't say he's lying said some prepared and can statement that he's worked on he pray at an attorney working with him to make sure he said the right things he also then we pick up on the same things a lot of times chase he said instead of no recollection this no recollection have no rely collection of that woman has been his argument all along he's off a little bit off the reservation there and then when he says I categorically deny this is one of the few times he does a straight down I contact break which we typically think of as submission they know there is on the griddle and those eyes break straight down that's not accessing nobody access is like that that I've ever seen in my life you may access this way that way this way this way but that's breaking eye contact in a submissive fashion I'd for him first time I've seen mark where you think yeah I'm not going to add anything because it you know it's a waste of our time in a waste of the audience's time who are intelligent enough to look at look at what's happening there and the verbal obspec ation going on to understand you know exactly what's happening here I think it's been it's been said the interesting thing is is we're just unpacking intellectually what everybody knows and if there's any moment in this interview that next day he needed to resign this is it because there's a simple answer you know is she lying yes she's lying all right we'll be synthetic well that's all we got unless you guys can think of something else for you to comfort okay well let's throw it around the room Greg you want to give us your ten guys we have looked at baseline of him and know he has a little bit of a wonky baseline anyway all that grooming himself is to use your terms but he licks his lips a lot it's just who he is as he's preparing to talk so some of the things that we see unless it's really pronounced or not abnormal for him we look at baseline and I'll always say I am obsessed with baseline baselines the only thing that matters to me the rest of the stuff is nuance but baseline is what tells you when something is changing as you walk through this do you really want to be entertained turn the video on turn the sound off and turn on closed captioning on and look at the sentences with 97 words and what in who and when and how in one sentence this guy is brilliant at staying off of the topic he doesn't want to until he's not when he gets there he's like a worm on the griddle we missed the one piece that I really probably should have covered and that's I can't sweat that's a great piece of really you're sweating pretty hard right now otherwise he gets in a bind a lot of times because of a great questioner and if you're watching this and you're you want to do a good job of detecting lies pay attention you need to focus and get the person to answer questions not allow them to give you a chap in another direction like what about you yeah so the same if you're out there and you're wanting to detect lies yes there's look at what people are saying there's look at what they're doing there's also look at the atmosphere that they're putting around themselves and how are they using the narrative of that atmosphere the idea that they're projecting about themselves to manage you and manage your compliance around the story there's the story and then there's getting you to join in with that story and that they'll do with often status Authority sometimes they'll lower their status to do that that's often done in the con the con artist will get you to think that you're a higher status than you are in order to get you to engage with their story which is too good to be true in this situation what this person is doing is trying to raise constantly raise their status so the accusations couldn't possibly be true because they're too high too virtuous too honorable chase well he is too honorable he told you himself I could buy yeah I think we saw management here this was just perception management 101 and I think that there is a legitimate concern from the Prince that there is something or someone out there that has information that could seriously hurt him and what one question I would have loved to ask and this is something all interrogators most interrogators know this is why do you think people do this kind of thing I would have loved to hear his response and whether or not he denounced this stuff because it was never it was never really brought under the light and that that might have been a mandate for the interview like we're gonna we can talk about all this but we're not gonna bring this up but I would have loved to bring that into light and say why do you think people do this kind of thing and get a reaction and that would be really telling at the very beginning of the interview excellent excellent well for me it's I agree with I agree with everybody in this Gregg when it comes to the baseline I think Chris what we're seeing here is that a wonderfully and and and almost perfectly executed delivery of the information that he spoke that he's supposed to be giving you know and he's giving it in that and he's sitting in the context like marks talking about he's then in the in the palace or you know everything looks expensive and it's all that it's all the hoo-ha that comes along with that you know it's a set is to put his story in what Chase is talking about as far as protecting himself and making sure that that everything's that if that that everything is cool although he knows something's up or that he's in trouble he still continues to protect himself I think this is I think she did a great job the interviewer did a wonderful job at this and I think as an Mis guys billion I know I keep saying it but I'm tell you this guy's so smart I think he did a fantastic job of protecting himself as he went through there but it's still it's still peace it's like a swimmer and you know protecting yourself from a great white shark he's done for and I think he shows I saw a lot of I will go around and talk about the percentages of truth indicators compared to the percentages of deception indicators and when it comes to that for me I saw a lot of truth you know I saw a lot of things didn't tell a lot of truths a lot of things he was telling I'm gonna give him gonna say under ception I saw about I want to say about 80 percent on he's talking about but that are 70 to 80 percent the rest of that 30 to you know 20 to 30 percent is the truth I think because he's as he goes through and is telling what happened and and he's relaying you know personal things that really did happen but he's leaving things out yeah the omission part of it so that's where I think I'm thinking it's you know 78% deception and then 30 20 percent truth what do you think mark say that the the baselines that we see for truth-telling for him is which of that Stein's buildings he's been to and you know just get that baseline have you been to this place yes this one yes this one yes I mean if I were to look at where are we seeing the most truth that's where I go to so so for me I would say he is 50 percent truthful I mean at 50 percent let me back up I would say he's about 50 percent truthful when he's talking about thinners it's deception because in places because of the way strings the pieces together but there's about 30 percent chaff in this there's so much misdirect and redirect that it's difficult to call it deception and the true deception is when he refuses to deny something when he refuses to admit something either one of those is deception the last thing I would leave is this you don't need to be an expert to know to feel this to see this the British public figured this out pretty quickly that's the reason he left the next day and there's been a lot of fallout from this we all instinctively can read some of this we're putting words to it so that you can learn to quantify what you're seeing that's our intent face I'm gonna go with seventy-five deception 25 truth I think there are some things in there that we could see one hundred percent he was very very honest about I think the kids spending it the evening with his kids at the pizza place that happened and you can see the but you can see it in the behavior there's no hesitation there's no couching no avoidance so I'm gonna go with 75 excellent excellent all right well I think this is a very good one and we'll find something else and we'll get on that

Channel: The Behavior Panel

Views: 640,250

Rating: 4.8959007 out of 5

Keywords: prince andrew interview, prince andrew, jeffrey epstein, body language, news, epstein, the royal family, prince andrew body language, prince andrew bbc interview, prince andrew jeffrey epstein, prince andrew interview 2019, prince andrew interview body language, prince andrew epstein, prince andrew epstein latest news, prince andrew interview reaction, prince andrew video, bbc, newsnight, scott rouse, mark bowden, chase hughes, greg hartley, how to read body language

Id: PFYTBMfVqr0

Length: 74min 9sec (4449 seconds)

Published: Wed Jun 03 2020