Need to cut a Trepan or Face groove? Check this one out.

hey guys Joel paczynski here with advance innovations in Austin Texas thanks for stopping back thank you to all my subscribers everyone that leaves comments thumbs up I really do appreciate it you know every once in a while someone throws a comment down and the light bulb goes on and I decide hey why not and today we're going to show you how to do what's called in my world a tree pan groove or a face groove and it's just strictly basically an o-ring groove in the face of a part as opposed to the odium apart now there's many things going on with it but it's relatively easy the unusual thing or the thing that's different about a tree pan groove versus a standard Odori groove on the outside is that on the face of a part as the diameter increases you have different surface footage in different speeds different RPMs of the material blah blah blah and the chip that comes off can sometimes be rather confusing as to which way it wants to go because the inside of the chip is turning slower than the outside of the chip although the RPM is the same the surface footage is different so it's it's strange how that all works the tool grind is important to tool clearance can be a real issue and people tear tools up break things off and get ratty finishes and they can't figure out why so I'm going to throw a couple of examples up here on the board of what kind of grooves these are what type of tools form them and the easiest way to grind your tool then we're going to go out in the shop and a 2-inch diameter piece of stainless steel and we're actually going to do it so you know who that comment was for if you're watching that was for you so thank you for guilting me into that alright here we go Old Faithful with the eyes here we're looking straight down the operator view right here's the part that's sticking out of the machine the tool comes in here plunges forms a groove these grooves are used for bullrings seals wipers any number of things that these are you know the applications the easiest group that I've ever found to do is a straight tool it doesn't know what you necessarily want it straight unless it's perfectly lined up because the sides will drag so a little bit of back relief is fine just a couple thousandths of an inch so that the widest part of your tool is the front use a sharpie marker or something on the front of your part DICOM blue nail polish it doesn't really matter but when you line your tool up just barely make contact with the face of your part and look for a nice wide scratch you'll know that your tool is true and don't be afraid to use a piece of scrap to set up your tools before you actually need to use that tool on your part it's okay to pop these in the Machine and just experiment and come up with your dimensions and write it on top of your tool or on a piece of scratch paper you'll you'll know right where to position that tool because this kind of tool is one of those you only get one shot at it kind of tools alright that's a straight groove that's not too bad to cut you'll see those more often than not and then you have the grooves that are radial in nature they're round and usually that's so that when the other part of the assembly or whatever is put on there you have one of these situations and you're o-ring fits in there real nice and up the leaks well I'll tell you why I don't like doing those unless you have a carbide insert to do it with now with the flat tool you have the entire face of the tool in contact with the park pretty much at all times and hopefully it's buried in producing a nice chip with a round tool you have tangent contact and if you're going to burn that tool up if you're going to wear this tool out it's going to be the very tip of that tool that wears off and all of a sudden it's going to be hard to put in the bottom of the groove is going to have a ratty finish and just that little tangent contact there has been about a difficult obstacle over the years but if you're going to have a problem that's probably where you're going to have a problem and why then you have the infamous dovetail tree pain roof which is a real nightmare I'm going to draw one side of that so you can see what's going on here it's usually undercut got a little radius back around for the face and down now a groove that has a profile like this is designed specifically to hold the o-ring let me make that a little bit bigger so this this demonstration really pays out there there we go specifically to hold the o-ring so the o-ring is in here that's trying to pathetic but you get the idea right so it holds the o-ring and when the surfaces come together not only do you have a flat contact with the mating surface but this thing has real to squeeze out well I got to tell you I've cut a lot of these I've done a lot of these in large diameter stainless and exotic metals for military valve applications and the determining factor of this type of groove is right here so you have to make this big groove with a tool that fits through the mouth here which means if your tool is going to have this feature on it you have to have that on your tool and all of a sudden the tools not very wide so you can see what I'm getting at here these tools can be a real hassle to get in there plunge it like a normal tool and then work the corners out now I've seen guys make angle tools like this and come in in two different directions and finish off the bottom but you know when you start looking at what this is right here it's not a whole lot greater than what this is going to end up being anyway very difficult tool to do probably the worst of the three possible scenarios but very popular in the industry when you're doing something that you cannot have that over and fall out if it's maybe a blind application and you need to know it's there that's the kind of groove you can expect ok now we're looking straight down the spindle from the tailstock right down onto your part actually let's look from inside the lathe back at the tail stock okay so we're inside the head we're looking outside the park here's the OD of your material now actually on a tree pan some people may argue this let's say this is the groove in your material the ID measurement is actually the OD of the groove and the OD measurement is actually the ID of the groove that's kind of confusing but you have to put your caliper in here and draw it out and check this and then you're going to pop them through the dish mic or whatever you're going to use to check that ID and so it's a it's an OD measurement for an ID dimension alright let's look at the way the tool needs to be ground the inside of the tool let's say if the tool surface is right here the material is going to fall away from the tool as soon as the tool starts to cut because you have a diameter this is very much like an OD application the bottom of the feature is falling away so the rake on the front of the tool can be relatively mild because the material does all the work ok so let's say you have a couple degrees rake on the face of your tool if you can see that it's not very much now it's the outside that causes people most grief they just don't even think about the material is coming right at your tool as soon as the tool cuts so if it's a mild angle on your tool the way the feature is coming around it's going to hit the outside of the tool so either radius the outside of your tool to get away from the inside of the groove or make a very aggressive angle on it so a treatment tool is not symmetrical to look at the front very rarely not in my tool box anyway so the inside of the tool bit can be just a couple degrees the outside has to either be a radius that is smaller than the dimension on the print for the outside of the groove or it has to be an angle that you know is going to offer clearance because that material is going to come around and it's going to get the bottom edge of the tool that's pretty much all I have to offer on the board this really not much going on with this tool I'm going to grind the tool out in the shop but I'm going to stick it up against the camera so you can get a good look at how I grind my tools the material I'm going to be using it's 303 stainless and it's going to be a high-speed tool bit and a three jaw Chuck and let's see if we can get some good results all right let's take a walk out of shop take a look this is the tool I'm going to be using for the demonstration it is a high speed steel tool and if you're going to use high speed steel get a high speed steel that has some cobalt in it it's a little harder and it lasts a little bit longer and just don't heat them up and turn them blue like you're starting to see down here because then you take the temper out of the high speed steel and it's more inclined to wear down and not hold an edge so you can see the way the tool is ground the outside edge of the tool which is going to be cutting the larger of the two dimensions on the tree pen is an aggressive relief away from the cutting surface the inside is a little bit milder the tool is not very aggressively raked on the top or the bottom it's relatively straight hopefully tapering back I did grind this by I did not put it on a comparator so we're going to see how it cuts got a little bit of a radius on the inside and outside edges I'm going to take a stone to it and we're going to throw a Chuck on this machine and we're going to cut some metal you know I just made a comment about the tool that I'm going to be using and stoning it before I use it now when you grind a tool on a pedestal grinder you're going to leave burrs on that high speed tool believe it or not so pay attention to how you grind the tool if you grind the sides first and then the top chances are the bird is going to be planer if you grind the top first and then the sides are the face the birds are going to be standing up so take a hard little stone I have a little quarter inch mold stone that I've had for oh my god forever and just dust the surfaces of your part and take any little loose hairs off because they're going to fight you if they're there they're going to fight you and you can usually feel them with your fingernail so if you've never really noticed that start looking at your tools before you use them well we're about to put the Chuck on this machine here and engine lathe chucks can be relatively heavy so don't be a hero and throw your back out or god knows what hurt something else grab a friend grab a pipe you know put a piece of metal through the center of it so you have two good gripping surfaces these things if you drop them they're going to hurt the machine they're going to hurt your foot for sure and something that I've always done right here make a nest this was just a big piece of Redwood that was laying around I marked it out so it fits when my Chuck sits in here it hits my spindle spot on so I'm going to drop my Chuck in there and we're going to show you how that works that's it no more effort I have index marks on my Chuck I have index marks on my spindle and my Chuck always goes back in the cams exactly the same way they get much easier than that this is a three pen cam lock style Chuck and you'll notice that even when it's just me in the shop I always take the key out never leave a Chuck key in your machine I don't care if you're tightening down your cams or tightening down your Clark or if you're just turning around to grab a micrometer take the key out it's a really good habit to get into and if you see somebody else not doing it well then you got to get all over them too so take the keys out there you go cake all right I figured I'd walk you through the entire setup here first thing I'm going to do is make sure that my compound is not extending too far out I like it to be relatively flush to the machine or flush to the bottom half of the compound the center of the tool my handy dandy tool centering device now before you lock it down for the first time just get close because inevitably when you lock this top nut it's going to lift it and don't ever tighten the top nut with the tool tight I don't usually do that I usually loosen it up before I tighten the top knot that way everything does what it's supposed to do you get just a little bit more bringing in love it now I'm going to back my compound off until these two surfaces are in line because that's probably the maximum rigidity that I can expect and if you have a lock on it lock it down now don't let your tool extend out of the holder more than it absolutely has to that's just an opportunity for more chatter I'm gonna turn the RPM on relatively slowly and I mean by like 175 rpm and I'm just going to mark up the part now I got to set the tool so that I know the face of the tool is contacting the surface of the material at the same time going to step off for a second and grab an eye loupe so I can magnify this area right here and see how close I can get my eye all right I think for demonstration purposes this will be adequate I'm going to tighten it down turn the machine on it's just about the very same rpm just barely going to make contact with the surface of this material and I'm going to look for a nice even scratch the scratch that it leaves in the sharpie marker is going to tell you how your tool is aligned okay I am NOT going to change this tool but I am going to point out that that scratch right there once you look down and how that scratch is compared to your tool bit you'll know that the inside of this tool bit is hitting before the outside so you'd have to shift the tool this way in order to reflect it out okay but I think I'm good just going to go right ahead and cut it because I know it's going to clean up relatively quick we go get some cooler I'll be right back you you okay I'm a big fan of recycling soda cans for oil cups I am using tap magic for stainless they also make a fantastic product for aluminum I use both of these products in their shop and we're just going to run this about Oh 235 rpm it's not going to be a whole lot if I don't like the way it looks I'm going to turn the Machine off slow it down and tell you what that one is I would say that's about the maximum I'm going to want to run at and we're just going to plunge right in here and going to keep the coolant coming from this side so that it goes up and over and hits the tool I'm going to keep a constant pressure on it a gentle lock on the carriage so that there's no bounce or rebound and just drive it in by hand let's see what happens all right that is a 100,000 s deep face tree pan 303 stainless the tool is about 130 wide and the ratio is usually about 80% of the width of the tool is going to be the depth of the cut and naturally that's driven by the o-ring that you're going to stick in there make sure that the rectangular cross-section of the material you just removed and your tree pan operation has the same area or greater than the cross-section of the o-ring that you're going to stick in there or it's not going to compress it's not going to seal it's going to pinch it's going to cut it and it's going to leak anyway let's put a deburring tool in here clean that up with a little higher rpm and show you what we got that was 235 rpm since this is a high speed steel tool I'm not going to cut it much faster than that simple little double-sided 45-degree tool this tool sees a lot of use then increase the RPMs here substantially for a little bit of buffing jumping up the 707 the RPM all right guys now very rarely when I run a tree panting apart for an o-ring groove do I trust the initial plunge to give me the side surface finish that I'm looking for I know the face will but the sides I like to keep my tools slightly undersized and go back in for the I do d-dimensional cleanup cuts and make sure that I have the surface finish that I'm looking for but I think you have the idea here tree pant tool is not one that you run very fast make sure you debar the edges of your groove once you have it in there calculate your rectangular cross-section of your little block that you cut out against your o-ring and it's just strictly the area of both I'm going to make you look that one up online and when you're done takes a memory to it take the Uglies off take the sharp edges off I'm going to call this one a win that's all I got I wasn't too bad you know I actually enjoy doing that feature I have done so many of those I've probably cut as many tree pain grooves as I have run threads and when you're doing valves that's something that you're going to come up against a lot so make sure the grinds on your tools are in the right direction make sure your tool is true to your groove a little corner radius on either side doesn't hurt make sure you deeper those edges on the outside with some type of break edge tool or a chamfer tool or whatever when you're done clean it up make it shiny got to have a good finish down inside of a tree pen or a face groove because chances are it's a seal so pay attention to the surface finish that's down inside there use lubricant don't let the tool dry out very important keep the pressure on the tool and when you get to the bottom of the groove like a show don't sit there because the longer you sit there the more rubbing you're going to have in the more chatter potential so hit it and get out so this way it works anyway I hope that helped I hope you liked it if you like what you saw subscribe thumbs up chill paczynski advanced innovations Austin Texas come out you

Channel: Joe Pieczynski

Views: 151,102

Rating: 4.9567566 out of 5

Keywords: joe pie, joe pieczynski, advanced innovations, advanced innovations llc, face grooves, face grooving on a lathe, manual face grooving, trepan grooves, trepanning on a manual lathe, machine shop tutorials, shop lessons, lathe tricks, lathe hacks, lathe lessons, how to face groove, how to trepan

Id: edOt0gRH0Tk

Length: 23min 22sec (1402 seconds)

Published: Sat Oct 29 2016