My Expatriation: Two Years Later

welcome to a special normal capitalist presentation my name is Nina's Passover and I'm here with the founder of normal capitalist Andrew Henderson this month marks the two-year anniversary of Andrew giving up on his US citizenship and leaving the United States for good Andrew nice to be with you it's nice to see one on this side of the camera thank you before we get started tell us why this interview is important to you I you know I think there are a lot of misconceptions about this process from people in the audience from people in the general public I think there's a lot of misconceptions a lot of assumptions in general about me and and others who who take this path and so what I really wanted to do is not only to clarify that what I also wanted to do was address what I think nobody's doing which is addressing the honesty that is this is a difficult process it's one that even if you think you're ready for it it requires a lot of thought it's an emotional process there are things you need to prepare for you know in your life I've had numerous people you know call us at nomad capitalist and say hey I just renounced now what do I do you know you've done this I mean maybe you can tell me like what's next and I really wanted to to take what I think is a misunderstood and sometimes even vilified process and try and bring a sense of humanity to it that I think is really missing and it's been two years you know how do you feel about that I feel I feel the same really I mean to me it's kind of like I remember my you know my aunt would call me and I turned ten years old and she would call me on my birthday and say you know how does it feel to be ten nine ten I don't know what's the difference I feel in a sense liberated in a couple ways that I I wanted to talk about and I know we've got a lot of questions from folks who were in the audience and wanted to answer those it's liberating in the sense that I always try and play within the lines when that's required I think that you know following rules is important I'm not someone who just no shirks the rules I like to guess we say go where you're treated best I like to find the rules that are the best but I don't want to be over in this box over here and doing things wrong and so I think that you know there's been so much pressure that's been let off of not only you know not being part of a culture that I never really identified with but you know I've been out of the United States for a long time you know before doing this it wasn't like I just woke up one day and left the US and just went and and and renounced so I feel liberated but I also just feel very much the same and I think that's maybe what I would tell people is you know you're still the same person you still the same once the same desires the same dreams the same need to me you know you know you're not changing your personality by doing this and so yeah it's it's really a lot of the same but I think a certain stress of you know knowing that these were the rules and knowing that I know you have to comply with him by the way not not nothing to do with tax by the way I'm just you know a guy who lives overseas who was an American ran a business and now you know just doesn't have all the stress of making sure there's so many things you have to do and distress it from an identity perspective so better but but really the same people must ask you this all the time why did you do this why did I renounce my reasons are probably interesting on of different from a lot of people who come to nomad capitalists right I mean people think you know nomadic capitalists we do tax we do immigration they think oh it's just it's just it's just money that's all it is I had thought about doing this for a long time I remember walking around my neighborhood in the u.s. many years ago as much angrier person and I was talking to my father and said you know I just I just get some passport and renounce I do not like it here I don't want the identity and then going overseas and just seeing there's a difficulty my remember you know one time I don't number of years ago I briefly dated someone from Iran I remember like we were talking to an attorney we were doing some compliance for our business and I'm like I guess that even allowed like a mile I'd like speak to anyone from Iran he's like zaheer yes and for me is a guy who likes to kind of you know who wants to be compliant I mean I don't want to be compliant but I do comply I think it's the right thing to do I think it's what successful people do you know you try and change the definition of what compliant is and that's what I did just felt I mean I just felt it really didn't surfing anymore and I think that is its humanity we hold on to things that don't service because that's just the way we do things and you know six months before I did it I was in Vanuatu met some guys who had renounced a decades ago and they said you know you have the worst situation you know you're a US citizen and don't live in the US and there's all kinds of obligations and just this is very stressful I said no I said actually I think the worst thing is you're a US citizen and you do live in the US for me that was the worst thing and so I realized you know that was the value of it was to go back to live there to work there that's why most people have it it's why most that's why most people hold it dear because that's what they live so they well lived with their families are it's where their job is and that's not me and you know I just said let's just you know let's just clear the deck let's let's just you know well it's a spring cleaning of sorts you know that which doesn't serve you you know the sweater doesn't fit anymore you know you give it away you give to Goodwill that that's what I wanted to do and one of the things you discussed behind scenes is that not everyone should do this yeah correct not everyone should be yeah yeah people come to us at nomad capitalist we have people who come and by the way you know we run a firm we talked about tax we talked about immigration you know if if we ran if we ran a boutique consultancy for people who didn't like living the United States it wouldn't make nearly much money I mean so I am a business guy and I talk about things that I think I can help with they're people with some people come to us and their entire goal weighs hey I'm planning a big IPO and you know I want to you know save some money on tax you know other people come and you know I had a gentleman about a year and a half ago he said you know I'm tired of supporting the wars I don't want to have a passport and to be paying tax to a country where you know my money and my my den today is going to support you know killing people I talked about that in the video after I after I uh after I did read now it's and I said you know it's very frustrating for me to have that I did on top of everything else it's very frustrating for me to go places and to be American and in some places that's not welcome and I I felt weird because it's like I don't identify with one of the things that people don't like about Americans I felt like those things weren't me and so it was weird but I think you know if your thing is if you're the guy who says I don't want to support the wars I almost tried to talk people out of that because I think it's very it's a very sobering decision it's a very permanent decision and so if you're acting out of some kind of anger or frustration I've been there I know but it's like I think anger and frustration comes from not having options what I've seen is people who we've helped who they say I'm gonna renounce I hate this place it's the worst I said okay hold on let's get a second passport first and then see how you feel and then they start traveling in the second Passport and then so first of so for some people the reasons are just angry and if that's you then I would say you know take a step back and look at what are the other options to go or you're treated best I'm not saying to do it or don't do it I don't talk people into doing anything I don't tell people you have to have a second passport if that doesn't serve what you're trying to accomplish I'm gonna to convince anyone of anything and so I guess having been that kind of frustrated guy I would say that's not the place whether it's pronunciation or any other decision in life that's not the place you want to be when you're making big important decisions how did it feel to leave the United States to leave the US well here's the thing that I've empathy for when again when people come to and this is one of the things they may be considering but by the way let me just say this I'm here in part of the reason I did this is to put a name and a face I'm happy to be the guy who says here's what I've done and I'm sure it won't be sympathetic to some folks I'm sure from some some folks will say this guy is terrible he's a trader he's a nasty part we don't approve it that's fine I'm here to talk to people who I think you know really need to hear the human side of this because all they have is one side all they have is vilification all they have is confusion all they have is the bean counter side of this and not the human side to your question into that point you know I had been gone I I will I spent much of the early 2010's traveling my business side of the u.s. more than I was at home those were the early days of me researching and studying this stuff you know and towards the end of the early 2010's I left for good I came back to host one conference and to sell my house and other than that I was basically been gone you know so when I when I went to renounce and they may have asked me you know when when was the last time in the US I'd come back for six days in 2017 and but in his throat it was nice actually but by the end of the six days like I've had enough I've had enough now and so my point is for people who are considering this or people who are thinking about this I think I had the benefit of a number of years of already being physically gone and realizing that there other places in the world and realizing how those other places work and and I continually learned about how to adapt in these other places and the challenges and the the benefits and all that but I think I think just leaving the United States and ranan see tomorrow is difficult now sometimes things worth doing or difficult but you know this is why I think having second passports early rather than rushing to get one of them running out the door is a good thing because I think I had the advantage of being able to to say I'm not losing much you know I've already been gone for a long time and into that point I guess when I first left the United States in you know what 2012 2013 for good it was I give myself a task a Patchett if you don't like it you can come back and I never came back yeah this is this is a big one for me you know as a kid I grew up I was in you know getting kind of eat you I got angry or I guess in my early in mid-20s but as a kid I was it was this really kind of precocious libertarian guy in less taxes and you know and I never I was never patriotic this is dumb like I never understood patriotism I never like what is this all about you know it's like I'm from Cleveland Ohio right in the United States and I don't I don't follow sports but I think the Cleveland the Cleveland Browns football team has won like three games in the last four years or something and it's really dreadful and I asked myself all these people that I know who for 35 years have been supporting the Cleveland Browns ago for what their terrible I never felt this patriotism like you're from here therefore like whatever this place does everything that happens it's fantastic I never felt that I changed when 9/11 happened I changed like kinda I got into the the flag-waving thing for a while but it wasn't me it's not really me obviously is a very very sad time in US history we can we not to debate all the different aspects of that but eventually just came back to I don't really like what the country does I don't like the value I mean I'm not saying I hate every person from the country I'm not saying I hate everything about the country I've actually seen a lot of things about the country that I that I respect now that I have the clear focus of being gone but I was in South Africa when when Trump got elected and I really did know how to feel about it honestly if I had voted I probably would have made a self-serving vote for Hillary not because I think she would be a good president by any means but because I figured like she's the status quo and she wouldn't have bothered people like me too much it still would have been there would have been annoyances but it wouldn't have been like you know I mean she just would have kept all the globalism stuff in force and for someone like me who was just out of the country would just wouldn't have been any worse when Trump get elected you know the the libertarian in me who's like you know you know sure you show it to those elitist you know snobs if I go great fantastic part of me also realized I'm probably have to make a change because I'm not America first I mean III think the United States I mean they have a pretty good position in the world it's not like that you know I mean this thing they're being laughed at by everybody I don't really know about that but I mean there's a few things I guess Trump has a point on but I thought America first it's not it's not my thing like I you know I'm go where you're treated best and I realized I mean I started to really see the country as like the psycho girlfriend like you know like she's she's talking like she's you know she shout and she's thrown at you know she's throwing a fly a frying pan across the kitchen and like who knows when she'll lash out next kind of thing like I just got off like you've just got to step back and keep your distance and [Music] yeah I as much as I appreciate the kind of anti-establishment nature of Trump this whole thing where like you know this kind of returned to isolationism I guess it's good if you're a factory worker you know what listen nobody blames factory workers for voting in the interest of factory workers but yet I'm not supposed to want politicians who represent might be in best interest an old plant is realized I mean not only are both parties pretty much the same but with this America first it was just like it was just really you know I knew there'd be problems for people like me was there a turning point in your life where where I where I switched where I realize this is more a direction [Music] yeah I mean I remember turning 33 not right before I renounced and I think what was really influential for me in removing some personal friendships and you know people from my life in business and in personal life who were I think not a fit who were difficult who took advantage and and and bringing I brought in some new people who were really supportive and loving and I think really feeling you know for the first time in an adult life of just working hard around the clock you know here's really some love and support and I soon after met the now mrs. H and I think that you know having you know kind of been traveling around for a while on my own without as much love and support and then deciding know why I wanted the love and support I wanted caring people in my life I wanted more caring people I had something more I think it was really influential that was about three my turn 33 but three months two months before two months before I did this and I think that was it was a turning point but it was a very influential moment where I think it was much easier knowing that I had people who weren't Americans and some who were but people who you know I could travel around the world and I could I could know that they you know really cared about me and that I wasn't on my own I think it's important and you said you have said that tax didn't play a role in your decision can you tell us about that well you know I mean it's an interesting side benefit you know I I was legally I mean here's the thing oh you know it's tax tax tax I and many others you know for a long time we're very legally you know paying a little or nothing and by the way I mean I you know I'd be happy to pay a little I don't think it's fair that the only country or one of the only countries on earth that makes you you know phone home when you're a citizen even if you're someone like me I mean what for for four or five years hadn't really had barely set foot in the soil it's not like I'm using the roads or sending my kids to the schools and I think it's unfair but okay you know you're a successful person you know you you change the box you're playing in yeah I mean I think the bigger issue is just I felt that the culture and the political culture was going towards you're not our guy there's no one in Congress looking out for us expats if you live overseas listen you can live overseas and pay a lot less tax than you do living in the United States there's you know people think oh I have to renounce my citizenship to save on sax no you don't maybe it makes it a little easier maybe it makes a little better it really depends on the situation listen by the way I could have moved to Puerto Rico and paid next to no tax okay but again I don't want to live in Puerto Rico I didn't want to live in the United States and I just really felt that the bigger issue was a person like me just wouldn't really be welcome I don't so not wanting to live there I just I look at the political climate around the world I look at the increasing nationalism in countries like the United States and others and I said you know what my my nationality my profile needs to reflect that I need to have nationalities I need to be a citizen of countries that are more open now the u.s. is a relatively open place for foreigners to come but if you were a citizen I just really felt it was getting bad now you know I'm just not fond it's not having to fill out tax forms every year great fringe benefit absolutely and I can tell you I mean when you're filling out those forms I mean you know I talk about how many bank accounts I have you know I remember there's one bank I have where you lose your debit card they give you an account number I mean it was like a headache every year filling out that f bar of a year but again I I complied because I think it's the roots it's just the thing that if you're successful you do because you just you know so it's a nice fringe I can tell you it is less stressful than I have to be doing that now and to know that I can just go and open a bank account and I don't to be like huh like what day did I open it and what's going on you know I can I can do business but to me that's not tax that's not it's not like I refuse to pay listen I would have paid something if they you know if they just said hey it's a single-digit percentage and you know just send us the money and like it's one form cool it's not only with the money it's just about how it's just like there's a war on people who don't want to live in the country and I think that under Trump and under the increasing nationalism in the country it's only gonna get worse and I think if you have someone after Trump if you have some kind of you know socialist communist whatever kind of person I I can see that one of these kind of these Democrats running could come in one day and say you know what you're just paying full boat and you're paying Social Security on your whole income and I mean that would really be unfair I think they might start taking your money I don't know but I just felt psycho girlfriend who knows what's coming next like they're gonna make life difficult step out what are your thoughts on the fact that a lot of people out there are trying to address the issue of the so-called tax dodging I understand the frustration out there in a sense where you know wages in countries like the United States are stagnant people are frustrated people are increasingly desperate what I say the issue is not people dodging tax it's a pejorative term it's designed to get the 98% of people who you know or looking for a job or wish they had a better job I mean that number of those people this is something get them fired up it's a nice line for politicians to use you know the reality is when I was born you know 35 years ago where I live now in Malaysia in the city centre of Kuala Lumpur was a village basically it was a camp on and now it is a bustling center of global development that's been fuelled by as Steve Bannon said as one of trumps former advisors said you know how jobs left the United States and they created a middle class in Asia what I always find intriguing about that is like as if it's a bad thing that Asia gets to have a middle class you know the the interesting thing for so was that only a few Western countries got to have all the wealth when everybody else was toiling in poverty and now people are angry about it and so they want to point to the issue and say oh it's you know it's tax dodging you know whenever there's an economic crisis memory no the Great Recession 10 11 12 years ago people were pointing fingers in every which direction why because they were scared I get that the world is changing like any other time in human history people have to keep up and so I think it's disingenuous that a lot of some people jump in the bad vague including some of these people who work for organizations where they themselves pay zero income tax to work for these organizations in Brussels and things like that where they just pontificate all day and and we get more done in our company in a day than they accomplish in a year but but I guess more importantly you know I was watching an interview I was watching a Q&A with Bill Gates recently where someone has Tim you know why don't you pay enough tax he said first of all a bit in tax you know how much are you paid he didn't say he didn't say that part them that's my question how much have you paid you know I mean like when is it enough the guy pays six billion dollars in tax employs a gazillion people that also pay tax creates so much wealth it's like you're the problem no no no you over there who are content working your little job you're the problem why don't you step up why don't you create something great why don't you add to the economy rather than just taking but that's not popular and but but but what Bill Gates say what does I agree with his listen change the laws go ahead and change the laws the laws have actually changed to where in the last you know in my lifetime 35 years you know nobody's hiding money in Switzerland anymore I mean I guess they are but like we don't live in that world because we say here's how to do it legally and you comply you know and so I think that the rules and again this comes back to America first and I think that the rules have have really increasingly made it much more difficult you know I don't speak to what Microsoft or Apple or those companies are doing that's not the world I live in I live in the world of individual entrepreneurs investors successful people who just want to be left alone and I don't the interesting thing is how many people I was one of them how many people live in the United States or any country and complained by the high taxes every conservative voice in the United States complains taxes are too high and they should be cut in half are they are they considered traitors and terrorists and all the nasty things listen I wanted a live overseas and once they lived overseas I said hey maybe there's like a tax break I can get cuz I'm I'm not using the services here anymore and I took advantage of that very legally but to say that that renouncing citizenship equates to tax dodging is is totally I think irrelevant in the same way that nobody tells the British guy who moves to Dubai that he's a traitor in fact he's welcomed back with open arms so I think this is just a lot of a lot of arguments from very frustrated people that aren't really fair you mentioned you never felt at home in the United States what do you mean well you know I guess the earliest example you know I decided to be an entrepreneur when I was 12 or 13 years old I you know I sold stuff door-to-door I had lemonade stands I created a magazine and sold that you know at eight nine ten years old it was always interesting business and I decided I want to be in business when I was about twelve unlike now it wasn't cool back then I mean people were not very you know it wasn't a cool thing to do to be an entrepreneur as a kid you know I liked watching you know people like Bill Gates when I was in seventh and eighth grade and just kind of made me a geek and it kind of made me a target and so you know a lot of people get bullied when people have you know problems but it was kind of the first realization where you know maybe I don't belong here because when I've traveled the world I found that somehow this just been a much natural much more natural fit in other places particularly that when I get older when I became an adult and I ran a business you know so many things felt just just unnatural to me in the United States remember you know my friends would call me it I didn't drink until I was in my mid-20s but my friends would call me out to join at a bar on a Friday night and I would show up you know from work be wearing a you know shirt with with French cuffs and cufflinks and like you know girls would like in their little ye voices like make fun of me about like why you ain't Catholic and you know it's like interestingly enough for me when I went to other countries enough people I go that's pretty nice cuff links just like normal people you know like normal life I was a member going to Norway in 2008 there's a presidential election coming up I hit the most exciting conversations and people about the American election in Norway that I could never have with someone in the United States I would walk around my neighborhood the United States and people would like shout at me like like for being a loser hidden in a car it's like I have a carb just I'm just walking you know or they'd wear a scarf and they'd say like what are you a gay like people on their other Street and say say what Andrew you're gonna you're gonna give up your citizenship for that no I I left the country because it just wasn't a natural fit it wasn't a place where I felt anyone really understood yeah you know what you can wear a scarf I mean it seems dumb but like don't wear a scarf you have to be gay to wear a scarf you like you wear a nice suit it's like what's up for that guy you know and I just felt like what do I want this for and and if it were like oh that's just who everybody is then okay cool go back but somehow everywhere else people were just just gel better and so I guess eventually it just I just asked myself you know why keep this citizenship of a country I have no great fond memories of I mean some but like a lot of not fun memories why keep this why be part of this why if I have all that why did your grandma try to talk you out of it like I said I I don't I think it's hard for people I mean how many people renounce in the United States in a year I mean it's you know there's one number that's official that's not really the number but it's still thousands it's not a lot of people I mean you've got 320 million people thousands of people are doing it I mean it's not like the average person I mean this is why we you know you know this is something we specialize in right is is understanding how some of this international stuff works most people to understand it I don't let my grandmother entirely understood it but I think the wisdom of my grandmother she's a very wise person and you know III you know I think part of the wisdom is hey you should do what's right for you and I think that that's been a great blessing in contrast but I think a lot of people face which is people trying to live vicariously through their family members so you talk to your family and friends but can you actually walk me through the logistics steps of the process right so I mean for me that was the big first let's just accept was what I said which was you know you have to make sure you're prepared you don't want to be one of the people who comes to me saying I just pronounced or or if we had a couple people who say I've got an appointment for next Wednesday you know like we I had some help I had some of our team members helping me out and basically I mean you know you make an appointment you call you the embassy of choice and you say hey you know mr. Henderson wants to come in and you know here's what its gonna do and I think you've you generally got to go online in schedule an appointment like any other American citizen like you're getting your passport replaced or whatever but then you call them because they've been again tonight it's like they've got a checkbox for them coming in to renounce my citizenship I mean it's not a very common thing at most embassies but you make the appointment you go in you know you just kind of you know why do you want to do it you explain it and I basically said in a very condensed version of what I'm telling you you know one thing that that is made clear is you know if you go if you owe the IRS renouncing doesn't cancel your tax dad I mean I can still come after you and they have ways to do that you know if you're if you're scanning from the law in some way you know I mean they're you know some haters said that like oh wait you know he's he's escaping a string of you know whatever in Oh legal issues or something you know you can still be sued people get sued in the US look you know we have clients who are from the UK from Australia who do business in the US they can get sued as likely as any US citizen you know if you're a criminal they know they don't stop looking I hope I can make it to the embassy before they before they catch me for murdering someone I mean you know come on they walk you through that I get I think there's still a Selective Service requirement you know they don't know how that works but they walk you through that then you leave and you come in for a second appointment I was very lucky because the people were really professional you know I could come on here and I could you know you know they have this you know bad-boy image you know tearing them it was very professional actually it was very understanding was very accommodating not everyone has that experience I was lucky to and I'm grateful for that and I think was a nice waited it was a nice kind of reassurance but then you go for the second appointment and you do the actual procedure where you take the oath and you raise your right hand and here's what I can tell you and if you've ever broken up with a boyfriend or a girlfriend you know like driving over to their house to sit on the couch and have that talk it's like you've got like giving them such a weird feeling you know and you go over and you sit in the couch and you have that talk and it's tough and you know sometimes you cry together even and and you know it's tough then you get in the car and and you go home and you realize it's tough but it's it was the the right thing to do and so for me you know walking out of the main building into all I guess a lot of embassies have like this yard between like the kind of the guard shack at the front where you know you got to leave all your phones and your computers and your pens and everything and walking out I mean it kind of felt like you know walking out of it you know a sense it almost I want to dramatize it or be nasty about it but almost feel like like walking at a prison in a sense or you know so I I kind of bring it back to that kind of a psycho girlfriend thing it's like imagine like you walk out of with a psycho boyfriend okay fair you know you walk through the house I'm freezing power you know it's over right and but but when you're in that moment it's it's emotional it's like sitting on that couch it's emotional I matter I mean no matter how much you prepare I I I think if you're a normal person you're you're gonna have a little shake in your voice you're gonna have a little quit you know I mean it's it's gonna be tough because it is a permanent thing and because no matter how much people like me talk about being citizens of the world you know we are still instilled from from day one - to cling to our identities as people from one patch of the soil over the other and I think that's in a very deep level something that we all we all just struggle with and fight in and that's there but but I was you know I think having a support group is very important and knowing that you have people who aren't American who can support you and who are there for you I think it's helpful do you think who you are as a normal capitalist has any impact of the process well I mean certainly I'm a more visible person and I've talked about it and again you know what I've learned being in business for my entire adult life is you're gonna have haters you're gonna people don't believe you you're gonna people don't understand you more importantly you know if you're a person I mean if you think that if you're a successful business person not many people do that if you successfully live outside of the place where you were born and that many people do that like it's pretty rarefied air most people want understand the decision just to even live outside of the country I mean I know I talk to people who are in Australia their families are like shaking their boots that they might you know they're they're their son or daughter might go and invest in real estate in New Zealand instead of like I mean this is like people to understand this kind of stuff by and large I think it's becoming better certainly is you know more flights more opportunities people are me know it's more global world but on top of all that rarefied air I mean Here I am saying let's talk about it right I have people who come to us and they say hey I'm down stems for tax sometimes for other reasons whatever and you know they don't talk about it I listen this is my because I so focus on the human side of this not really the financials I mean the financial side is a big thing for some people but for me it's the human side it's a lifetime of the human side and I found that the way to help people with this stuff is to come out and be like let's talk about the human and emotional side of it does that make it does that make it different because I'm out speaking about it is that just tasteful to some folks I don't know and you know what that's okay everything I do is distasteful to somebody I mean being successful in business is just taste it's just tasteful to someone who doesn't like capitalism you know living overseas is distasteful to someone who's a flag waving Patriot so yeah maybe the process is different surely I will get you know more slack from or from somebody or from some people but you know I I think important to share the message and to help people who are struggling because I know I struggled the entire journey for me as a nomadic capitalist was I wish there was no mad capitalist when I was starting this stuff whether it's opening the first bank account buying the first property getting the first second Passport doing this like I feel it's a bit of a pioneering thing and I want to make it less for people who feel that they need to do this but but want someone's support and and maybe that means that I catch more heat I don't know do you still view yourself as American I'd like to say no and I think for me that part of the process of doing this was that was the identity didn't work I think the beauty of it was went from being angry and hating the country to the saying and I why it's not for me the minute that I was done it's like oh all those problems all those things I don't agree with like that's someone else's and listen I don't agree with a lot of politics I don't like I mean obviously the US has a lot of influence around the world I don't agree with all of that a lot of people don't agree with all of that I mean you know we go all over Europe and you know but I don't I don't feel ownership of it anymore I think that's what I wanted to accomplish and so do I feel American no you're you're for you're from makedonia and we still call it makedonia here for all you all you Greeks who have a problem with that like you know there's probably a siesta coming up you can take probably get some comments on that but you know if you move to the United States and you spend you know whatever five years or something you got a green card like you could become an American to me I mean the interesting thing about the new world is anyone can become or unbe come there's no it's not like you know makedonia or Serbia or you know wherever else was like you you know you you prick yourself and you bleed you know Serbian you know and and and so I mean look at look at look at my wife look at mrs. H you know who's from from Russia and she's ethnically part Russian also ethnically part Armenian and in Russia it's like oh no you're a mean Ian like you can't get a job that the FSB you can get a lot of political like you can't do a lot of stuff that part of the that's Armenian dominates if you're not 100% Russian you're not one of them it's such a foreign concept to me because she's like I'll always be Armenian I'm a trust it you know for me in the new world if you're a citizen you're American if you're not you're not right I mean to me that's the thing that's how it works can you really escape your identity dough yeah I mean people have said like well you know you grew up in it and there's something to that I mean III it's interesting I mean when I talked this will be very controversial but I mean I you know I talked about kind of the dating world in the United States I mean I know some you know super nice I know super nice women who are married to some of my friends or just you know female friends of mine they're super nice but there's a certain thing like when you sit in the soup of a culture you can't help but absorb you know part of the elements I mean it's just a culture that you just absorb through us Moses almost which is what makes for me to kind of the relational aspects of being the United States very difficult because I don't share a lot of those those aspects but yeah I grew up in United States it's shaped Who I was but you know what you know what you know who shaped Who I was my parents shaped Who I was my family experiences shaped who I was I come from a waspy you know white anglo-saxon Protestant kind of upbringing winter is coming and work harder your word is your bond you know what I would say is I would say if anything I would say either I'm an Ohioan because I think I do identify with the kind of values in in Midwest us I think those values are there with me that are they kind of are more specific than American which is very much a catch-all I would also say you know perhaps I'm I'm from the Anglosphere certainly there's things that you know Anglo countries do that other countries don't there's a certain work ethic so that there's a certain mindset I mean every time I meet people from the angular world you know I'm exactly on time and they're early right every time I meet anyone anywhere else in the world like I'm on time and they're late so there's some you know cultural elements that have that you escape but you know when I met those guys in Vanuatu you know the one gentleman 75 years old he renounced it 35 years old I mean he's still American because 40 years ago he had lived there for a while I it's an interesting question and I don't know there's a there's a firm answer but you know Eduardo Saverin by the way who was one of the cofounders of Facebook born in Brazil right he renounced big firestorm you know he's cheating the country that you know that the of his birth it's like he was named born here good political points again like good political points Chuck Schumer like you know we know Chuck Schumer you want to grab everyone's wealth like that's cool and again like it's not my business anymore if Chuck Schumer wants to grab people's wealth so I don't really comment on that anymore I just say you know not my not my circus anymore so you think you can escape your identity I don't think that identities are tied to a passport right I mean I am I saying Lucien now I it's very it's hard to be concrete with this right yeah listen there's some aspects of you know generations living in a certain culture that that's what they they raised you to do that's how they raised you to act that's what they raised you to be I don't I mean I me I I mean I think if you if in any aspect of your life if you're like you know you know I'm so-and-so husband I'm so and so's wife you know I'm so and so's son or you know I'm this job but if your entire identities is is is locked into something that you don't control that's a problem and how do you find about viable friendships when everyone you live with are on a different mentality oh I mean the great thing I guess about you know the United States is I mean there are so many people and there are you know millions of expats who live overseas and those are actually the best people I mean from the United States I mean those the ones that you actually really want to get to know because they share your values I mean it was an you know the same way that you know if you like hunting and fishing and whatever else mean you live in a place for people hunt and fish and that's what they do I mean so I mean it's not like you know I'm from Tajikistan or something I'm looking for the three people I'm you know well I can find I mean I you know you can be friends with Americans but I think that one thing that living outside of the country I know the pronunciation so much it affects this but because you can be an expat and have the citizenship but you know living outside of the country you know you you realize I mean yes cultures are different that's one thing I've learned I think you know growing up the United States one cultural value is like we're all the same now or not now we're not some people are hardworking some people are more timely some people are more you know we're like people cultures are different but you realize that every culture also has good people and you know I have friends from all over the world now and and so I don't I I think that it's a question where if you're out there living in the soup that is the world rather than that is a nationalistic one it just works itself out you seem to be missing the gene where you feel you owe your birthplace is that true yeah I think it's a question I guess we we get I was talking to a friend of mine a couple weeks ago here's my my weakness is I don't know or it takes me a while at least to find my strengths I'm like wait like everyone doesn't do that like really and I was talking to friend of money today and and he lives in Chicago and we were talking about all the different things in Chicago when the places his father goes and he goes and that was kids go and you know became kind of a nostalgic thing and he said you know what your superpower is is you don't have this gene where you have to like pine away for for your home I don't think that you oh I don't think I don't think anyways oh did anything I don't think I'm owed anything I don't think that any place or any entity or any organization is owed something for life I think you have to earn it it's what we talked about in our company if you deliver value you get more money if you don't deliver value you don't get money and people go somewhere else I you know I am I'm a you know laissez-faire you know real world you know businessperson that's how I think that's the lens through which I view the world I don't I don't know why you know being born somewhere listen you know I went to school I went to a lot of public school my parents paid a lot of property taxes that paid for that public school I don't I don't understand this thing we're like it to spend the rest of your life and for me I mean it's interesting we were talking about you know the team some of the team members spending some time here and here in Mexico recently and I said he's amazing as Mexico is is amazing the food is the people are great the way like everything's great I said you know you take people from from Serbia from makedonia from Ukraine from wherever and you bring them to Mexico eventually they would be like I want to go home I don't have that I don't I don't have that are you angry because the people the politics the culture made you think that way make me think to give up on your US citizenship you know I don't think anger is productive I've been there I'll tell a lot of the reason I've been there is because I surrounded myself with people who were problematic who didn't you know match my values you know I I think if you want to be happy in life or or you know at least at peace which is probably a better metric you have to get rid of things that don't serve you if you have someone work in your company and you're always getting it fired up about them and I got and every day they do you like you wake up what are they gonna do next and it just frustrates you it they annoy you you know they they show up at the office you know they're wearing like flip-flops or something it's like it's not a fit and I think that the anger comes from hanging on to those things the anger comes from not knowing what to do listen I spent a lot of time following politics in the United States in fact even after I renounced it kind of took me a little while to say well what am I doing here what am i watching this for what am i what am I and Joe Scarborough for talking about you know whatever I don't I think you have to you have to push the anger out by realizing what are the things that are causing the anger causing the frustration you've got to remove those things for me you know trap I used to admit I used to travel to 30 countries in a year and every time I would go somewhere be kind of like sheepish like you know okay mr. German like please don't you know like please don't judge me like you know and that's may be silly but how I felt I just I didn't so I I think the anger comes from staying some people say you look sad are you sad about it no looks like I think that my I think that life goes on you know I'm I'm a I'm a happily married person I'm a person who is building up my infrastructure you know one of the things that I've really been excited about recently is getting away from the 30 countries a year and building up different bases and you know part of that you know has been about you know building more roots in different places I don't think that I would ever want to live in one place you know people say oh you know it's a it's an interesting you know tax strategy to be traveling around the world and it can be I literally do not have the patience to live in one place whether it's the United States or like almost any other place there's places that I love but I like to bounce around this I there was some sadness at different times in the past from spending time and I spent a month in Bangkok once people asked me why I don't like Bangkok I'm not saying other people can't like Bangkok I personally felt a great sadness being there there's the energy for me was off so what I'm doing now is I'm taking the opportunity of you know having fewer restrictions and I'm investing in myself I'm investing in my lifestyle infrastructure and I think between having you know a new family and having more friends and kind of cementing myself in different places not in one place but in different places I think I'm less sad than ever what guess I am as I'm pensive people see me sometimes they know he said I'm I think I'm a very pensive person I spend a lot of time reflecting and trying to build awareness and self awareness on this stuff which I again I think it's I think it's the great thing that's overlooked in this field Deena is everyone's talking about the numbers everyone's talking about procedures you call a lawyer he didn't know like what it's like to to do this and to renounce and to give the passport back and yet you know they don't know IIIi think being pensive and being reflective is important do you think it's unfair having to Reno well I get no one has to do anything life is unfair you know you know it's interesting you know we had a we had a team we had a more we had a smaller and more you know tightly wound team back when I had people who were friends of mine working with me and we know we would travel around together and you know they would make fun of me cuz like oh you need a knee visit for Turkey like we do like the Germans we don't need an even you know and is that doesn't make it unfair that you know being a US citizen has disadvantages or that if you want to leave the US because it's such a polarizing place that's you know I think the answer is the answer is get better friends the answer is don't surround yourself with jerks I don't know that what's fair or what's not fair is relevant I think that as in business we make our own fortune and you know if you're gonna dwell on what's fair or unfair yeah the u.s. is a very polarizing place and it wasn't a place that was for me and I felt uncomfortable in a way that you know maybe someone from Canada wouldn't feel as uncomfortable about it is what it is yeah I would have been would have been nice to be born a hundred miles further north in Canada would have been nice if my parents would have moved when I was 12 to New Zealand as was discussed and and that could have been the identity but you know life is what it is one reader asked I can't believe you paid that amount to announce to someone you no longer want to be a member of it why not just tells the member she had been not show up I guess he's talking about the the fee the renunciation via the $2,350 fee which has gone from zero to four fifty and now twenty three fifty I think that's unfair by the way I think that you know the US government takes advantage not so much that it affected me but there are people who are expats in places like Canada where they do want to renounce for tax reasons because they're getting screwed I mean they're paying a fortune in Canada and then the tax systems don't match up so they've gotta I mean it's just a mess and they can't even afford two thousand dollars why did I mean so I the question is why don't you just stay a US citizen and just like not follow the rules I call that the success tax by the way I've known people who do that and here's the interesting thing right I'm the nasty guy I'm the terrible / I'm the traitor I'm all that hold on a second I get zero benefits I don't go there I don't want the pair I get I get nothing right not that I ever thought that I would get consular protection if something happened but you call them you know my wallet got stolen good luck call the police right you don't get that many benefits but you know which is worse me saying you know what it's not for me you're not gonna get anything from me and I'm not gonna get anything from you let's just part ways which is worse that or the guy who says hahaha the guy at rest is so disorganized they'll never find me I'll just stay in that pay and I'll go and I'll come Andrews a sucker no the only people who ever said that to me we're multimillionaires and working with multimillionaires and being successful myself when you reach a certain level you just say you know this is the success tax again I'm a guy who plays by the rules in a metaphorical sense no I think most rules are dumb whether it's at the st. Regis Hotel with their dumb little rules or whether it's you know this nature of which patch of soil were you born on but at a certain point you say am I going to live my life as a criminal is that what I want to do with my life Nina no listen I'm gonna opt out or I'm gonna play with the rules and again for a long time I did play by the rules I made sure the forms are filed I made sure I was in full compliance by the way it's not like I've opened the floodgates now and I'm suddenly taking on every Sudanese client you know who who I couldn't accept is you know as an American but I just it comes down to the success tax you know I I don't I don't you know want to run to live my life constantly wondering when the knock on the door is coming I don't agree with all the rules but I'm not a guy who likes to stay and fight I don't believe in stay in a fight you know we got a way to change our country you can change it I'll just go where I'm treated best do you regret it I I don't do regret you know it's interesting is I've I I've done you know I've made a couple I wouldn't say life-altering but but important decisions throughout my life as an adult but I look back now sometimes and I say you know I probably have done that differently now oh yeah we all have right we hope we've all done things where we would have handled it a bit differently and you know what in some of those cases hey you can't go back right I mean so there's been maybe things you do when you're 21 and you you set yourself up to where you know later there's a consequence you can't change it I don't I I don't think that I've never been regretful of those things I just say you know here's where I'm at today and and maybe it speaks to the kind of entrepreneur that I am where you have to make the best decision for you at the time and they talk about the third Apple founder who sold out his shares for you know hundreds of dollars some very low amount to to Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak and he'd be a Multi multi billionaire today had he not done that he said you know listen I had some serious concerns about these particular things at the time I was very worried at the time that I made the decision it was a good risk analysis hindsight's always 20/20 but I don't I think if you regret you're not gonna be very successful how difficult would be to get the US citizenship back well I mean from a procedural standpoint and you know I've talked to a lot of life of you know network of a lot of lawyers who specialized in this kind of stuff I mean I don't know that anyone's ever said I want my US citizenship back because my point about being American earlier was you know there's anyone I mean I guess a lot of people do they view the citizenship they view the identity is important I mean but I think for a lot of us it's would you want to live there again I mean to me that's what it is like I don't I don't need the ability to work in the United States for a you know a high paying job and it's not what I need it's my particular need I know a lot of people want to go to the United States because they think it's the land of milk and honey and and that's fine but procedurally it's the same as anybody else you know would they treat me any differently I don't know I don't think they would treat most people differently you know my spouse is not a US citizen my children won't be US citizens you know my parents are but you know I think I'm past the age of needing their support so yeah I mean I guess if I wanted to go and make an investment or or do whatever else I could possibly go back in and eventually get back citizenship you know I I I think you have to look at decisions that you make in your life is what if you couldn't take it back and it's emotional but if you saw through the emotion I think most people would say how has the process changed you as a person I don't know that it has other than the point of not my circus right other than allowing me to step out and say you know I'm having conversations with the people oh your politicians oh you know your government it's not mine I mean and so what it's done is it's brought me a great sense of calm because again the anger the anger is you know you're in the relationship where every day you're fighting and you're miserable and then you end the relationship and then it's like ah you know you kind of look back with a bit of fondness I don't know how fond I am but I certainly have a bit more respect I know that you know we talk you never would have heard me five years ago giving the US credit for anything actually I give them credit for for free tap water in most restaurants that was an I still think it's that's very important but listen there is there is a there is a method to there are things in the United States that I do respect doesn't mean I want to be part of it obviously they've been very successful people that are very successful I think you know when you live in the United States when I live in the United States oh lazy Americans on a global scale Americans are not really lazy so you know I think it's what it's changed in me is a greater ability to be like now that I'm not sitting in that toxic relationship in my mind at least I can be you know it's it's again it's breaking up with a girl and then saying you know what it didn't work for us but like she was good at that and for me I think that's been a very positive kind of calming thing have you noticed animosity between you and old friends who are still in the States uh you know I I have a group of close friends who understand it as much of an extent as they can I have friends who you know they tell me you know one day I'm gonna join you I'm like okay mm mm mm yeah I know that they won't and I respect that listen I get like people think you know I'm here to have as many people renounce you know burn the place down it's not my goal people need to make the best decision for them and so I think that you know most of my friends were always older than I was I'm giving that point life where now I have friends who are who are also younger who are also really you know successful and on the ball people but I've got a lot of friends who are older and I think they they have a maturity of you did what's right for you you know we're doing what's right for us we understand the best we can I don't think is any animosity I mean I guess I have had relationships with animosity because people wanted to be you know they just felt the need to be jerks about them not needing an Evie's ax or you know there was one friend of mine who when every now it's like what are you gonna do without visa-free travel to Equatorial Guinea like I still have Equatorial Guinea and it's like okay like these are so I mean no there's no animosity like it's the cool part is you know having friends who are willing to unite a wedding and get married in Montenegro you know friends who are willing to you know get in a plane and come over and and be with you I mean to me that's really meaningful and it's also the value of having fewer friendships I mean just having fewer good friendships I think if you're the kind of person who thinks in the way that we do here at Nomad capitalists you know colors outside the lines you're probably not cut out to have 50 different friends what does your family think you know I mean I don't entirely know you know my family that we are waspy you know it's it's less emotive I know that there were one or two people who were you know kind of frustrated during the process they said you know I don't I guess I get any one of the family you know that if you know even if they know you've thought through it and you've really done a lot of soul-searching they they you know they haven't done it for you and so it's hard for them to say yes you know you're ready you know again my family uh you know we meet in places around the world I mean I'm fortunate they have you know parents who are in who are in good health and and they can do that and they're you know successful enough to be able to do that if they weren't I guess I could I could fly them in myself you know I will be honest to me you know I didn't you know come from some huge you know Italian or Latin family what are these big families were you know 62 people get together for for Sunday dinner every week you know we didn't have that which made it easier that you know the the pool of people to talk to was smaller it was us your wife think why did she supports me you know that's really the the the great thing about her is she's just a very supportive and and loving person I mean I think here's the interesting perspective right someone who and she's been to the United States and she spent I think a summer there once and but someone who's not from the United States I mean it can have a more agnostic view about it you know the biggest the biggest you know issues issues but the time tonight when I had friends or colleagues or you know business associates lawyers whatever like Android you're doing that it was really about their culture view US citizenship as the be-all-end-all like that was the golden ticket to be from Georgia or to be from you know from Cambodia or to be from you know Columbia and be able to have like that like American passport is that is the golden ticket and and you're just saying a no thanks I don't know that anyone that if my friends was insulted by that they're just like are you serious my wife you know coming from Russia not being a traditional Russian I mean I think we shared that I mean she never really identified so much with Russia the same way I never so much identify with the US as a good fit but you know even that said she never saw the United States is the golden ticket either and so therefore she said well you know it sounds like you're calmer sounds like you're happier sounds like not much you know life has changed you know other than you just don't have this piece of paper and she says if that's you know what's better for you then you should do it and you shouldn't listen to people you shouldn't listen to naysayers she's been a great voice for me to help me you know drown out the naysayers how do you manage senior family now yeah I said I fly them in or they all do they'll fly in again you know you know my wife who comes from that kind you know that that kind of southern European Caucasian you know cultural background of Georgian / Armenian you know she calls her her parents and her grandmother a lot more often you know I call my grandma I call my grandparents I called my grandmother my grandmother she said she'd never get a computer by the way like for as long as I was interested in computers for 25 years now she said I'll never get any computer she finally got a smartphone and now she's on Facebook and so we'll chat sometimes it's mrs. H and I sometimes it's just it's just my grandmother and I and she sends all the little Snoopy stickers and and we have a nice tip but you know if I call my grandmother every other day I think she'd get sick of me that's just it's just who we are and I think it's hard for our other cultures to understand that but we do meet up in different places and and it's nice and and you know we we can handle you know even when I lived in the United States we didn't see each other everyday so I guess my point to someone considering this whether it's just being an expat or actually expatriated is you know you can manage there's a way to manage it and and you know potentially my family has said hey you know if when my family grows maybe we want to find a place near you you know I mean people can come to Mexico they can come to Montenegro they can come to Malaysia I mean they can come most places in the world you know especially if you're an American you can easily go most places does it feel weird that your children would not be American no no you know I I know expats who live in places where their children have a lot of problems I mean just you know I have a friend who his children can't get his simple savings account where they live because they don't take US citizens and the child wanted to follow in his footsteps in the father's footsteps and renounce and in in the embassy when they let them because they're 11 years old we don't 11 year olds make these big permanent decisions but yet to the bank at 11 year olds 11 year old I again here's the issue I think right I mean this is the bubble that is kind of being American and that's what where most people live you know the thing that you know the first generation I think stresses out about at times or stresses out about you know they worry about you know is is you know having the opportunity to go on a whim you know if my children are born other environments they'll adapt to those other environments I mean in the same way that I don't you know most folks from your from they might want to live in the United States again for a job but you know really you know economics aside they'd like to be in makedonia that's what they know it's what they embrace and so I think once the first generation passes it really doesn't become much of an issue you've been outspoken about having multiple passports and the need for a passport before you know ways that and he's that a natural extension of renouncing well the passport for for me number one one thing I mentioned to someone to a government worker before you know why do you why do you have these passports is it's what I geek out on I I don't buy into this concept that citizenship is some like sacrosanct you know thing like it can't be sold like we've just I don't I don't I don't buy into that personally and so for me you know it is just fun I mean a certain point diverse fate mate it's nice to be diversified I'm a big believer in diversification and so the answer your question from kind of a former US citizens standpoint is the u.s. passport is a travel document is a very good travel document and so by having several passports now I'm able to replicate the travel by combining those passports to pretty much everywhere except for you know four or five you know key countries by the way almost none of which I was visiting as a US citizen anyway I mean you know III think we've a lot of Canadian and Australian clients I spent you know a mere matter of days in my US expat time with the u.s. passport going to those countries you know nothing wrong with them they just didn't personally interest me and so you know I think having a passport portfolio helps to replicate the travel abilities um I also think well you know if you're thinking I don't want to be a US citizen you know obviously there's geopolitical stuff with the US passport there's a lot of different you know risks with being a citizen of any one country and so I still like having the flexibility of being a citizen in different countries and as I mentioned at this point I think I'm feel like I'm pretty well you know practically covered I think I think I have plenty of diversification but number one it's fun you know it's fun for me you know there's certain countries where you go and you practically make money becoming a citizen you make an investment and it's like a profitable process I mean you know so if I were making an investment in that country anyway is a good investment like why not take the free Passport you know what I'm really doing now is looking to passport portfolio as growing a passport you know throwing mine in terms of places that I would like to live in the future I haven't really put that much focus into it up until now I'd like to have several passports of places where you know I know that I'm a citizen I'm always welcome and you know for me I guess that kind of craving you know as much as I you know as much as I don't bind the idea of nationality there is kind of a craving for identity I see people around you know they're they're probably this or probably that I'd like to find an identity that I really enjoy not because it was just given to me but because I adopt it intentionally there's a part of that that interests me as well if we're being honest what problems have you encountered since you renounced few if any I think the biggest thing that the u.s. citizens think will be an issue and it really kind of puts them off in a sense it's maybe a stumbling block for them in this process is the visa process having a passport portfolio I need fewer visas I know a number of people who have just renounced being a Dominican or you know one of these citizenship by investments they buy it they renounce they're done they need a few more visas the visa process is not difficult at all in a case you know I'm kind of a visa policy wonk I geek out and it's not so bad to go to an embassy because for most countries in the world you could never say you take a bank statement you know stamp stamp boom boom done far easier than the paperwork of you know you know keeping spreadsheets of you know which bank account had which and and all that [Music] so I really haven't had any problems like I guess then maybe the confusion that's existed is that sometimes you'll go to a country you know you know and you're putting all your other passports it as you know born in USA and they'll look at it or some countries they'll scan your passport in like all of your other passports come up like some countries like oh you've three passports and and and sometimes they'll say oh we know where's your US passport which my response is what do you care this passport also works but then they'll say but you have UIC it's valid one guy said I can see it's still valid I said well if valid means being on the shredder at the State Department of Washington is still valid them by all means it's still valid you know I think for for those people we mentioned in some of these emerging countries the idea of you know cancelling is they would call it your US citizenship is like like you know you know hold me Jesus like I you know who would do that right but I think that's been the biggest challenge quote-unquote is is is you know having to stand it up in a five minute line occasionally or having to explain to someone you know why I don't have this how has life changed for the better yeah I mean I for all the reasons discussed right I mean I don't I just think now it's life I think that's the big lesson I would tell somebody you know it's an emotional process I understand what I here's how I look at it right I think a lot of people look at the process of renunciation is like you're here and it's like once you do it it's all downhill from there your life is impossible it's difficult like you have all these restrictions I look at it as I felt restricted is is as a u.s. citizen it was it was difficult for a moment it was frustrating it was like a whole process it was like you know in December of 2017 or like I I you know I had other things that could have been doing but I put this as a priority so I felt it was the time and you know for me it was down for a brief period then it was back up and now it's like I'm back to normal again listen you know for me having a lot of things to comply with was stressful I mean because I take it seriously I take you know hey you want to know every single bank account I have I think it's dumb but you know what again as I said success text I'm taking it seriously and there was a time when it's like you know bankers in other countries wouldn't understand that requirement and they think oh we just we just opened seven new accounts forty or something and then having to keep track of that was just with stress because I wanted to be very compliant and again it's not that's the matter of paying it's an issue of paperwork I you know I I don't know if that life is is better I just think that I mean it's better than I guess the regards if I feel more free but I just think life is life and it shouldn't be an issue where it's like there was like it's not like you know before and after it's like BC and AD it's it's not that it's it's just you have a little blip and then you're you're back to your normal life just is a different nationality do you feel that other countries treat you differently now without the US passport this is a concern and it's a concern you know I've had some friends who or you know who've kind of said oh you know like I can waive my US passport around I don't what year do we live in you know this is not you know we're not in the Cold War anymore here's the secret you know the secret about how most countries operate they don't care you're this you're that then imagine you're a border you're a border guard you're doing the immigration people come through there's a line you know people are waiting everyone's coming through you see all kinds of different passports are you sitting there oh this guy you know he's not know obviously again there's a few countries I can't go to there's also a few countries that I can go to now that I couldn't go to before no I don't think anyone I I think that there are three types of countries in the world there are a small group of countries that are judgmental namely countries in the Anglo world where you go and they ask you a lot of questions and I I do kind of think that you know maybe well they don't really act on it that you know I remember I went I went to one place and it's like he was ask me a series of questions like okay you're this you're that oh you're born the USP you're not American it's like I wonder he's like he probably has some kind of judgmental profile on his head like I know what kind of guy this is and that's fine you know whatever just just stamp the the thing there's judgmental countries not many many of those there's countries that don't care and then occasionally is the person who's confused or the country that's confused you know there's certain countries where more people are confused but the vast majority of the world you know they don't care they really don't the news flash the world does not revolve around the United States it is a country in the world it's a wealthy country it's a country with a good passport I haven't seen anything and nobody I know who's also renounced has seen any difference a lot of people in the West think you should be punished for being a traitor is that a question uh I yeah I remember I remember looking at I think I think was Roger ver the the Bitcoin guy who made of I think I think he made a video or or he put something maybe was on Twitter you know he is he you know we talked about not being able to go back to the US I'm paraphrasing I think I'm getting it correct but there were people commenting I remember like good like you shouldn't be allowed to come back we don't need people like you yeah I mean again that's the frustration people take it so personally you know I don't I don't you know I've learned especially in business but in life too you're not gonna understand everybody you know if we spend all of our time trying to figure out people that we're not a lot in alignment with what a way to waste a life I'll let them waste their life being angry about other people's decisions look there are people who are leaving because they don't want to pay or because they believe the terms are you know that the conditions are hostile being a US citizen people who live overseas listen I have a different view if you're a country in this day and age you have to create value we're not living in the Cold War era anymore when it's you know a few a handful of countries that people want to live in and the rest of the world is terrible or at least that's how the West perceives it but you know we abstain with so many countries have have come up and you know offered opportunities better places to live better social opportunities better weather you know I mean I grew up in Ohio my parents like we want to move to Arizona we're tired of this terrible weather right are you a traitor to Ohio no it wasn't offering them the value they needed we live in a competitive era now and a lot of people don't like it because they're being left behind I guess the same way a lot of people who you know made buggy webs didn't like the car coming out we live in a country where now jurisdictions whether it's states in the u.s. whether it's countries they have to compete so punish away if you want I I don't really understand that and I think it's very short-sighted but that's what you have to understand if you're living in this space of nomad capitalists is again it's very rarefied air most people are not going to understand or approve you've talked about tier B passports as being the wave of the future one of our readers asked does it help being wide if your chair be citizen so yeah I mean the TRB passport in the scheme of tier a B and C I've kind of come up with this phrase to say tier a is you can go to countries like the United States obviously you have a u.s. passport Canadian you know British whatever that's tier a you can pretty much go wherever you want including that all the developed world generally to your B would mean you can go to to Europe and a lot of other places but but not to you know the US Canada for example and then T or C would be you can't go to any of that you know like a Russian passport or something and so obviously you see you know some T or B passports are better than others st. Aleutians for example we get London we get or UK we get Ireland you know Russians even with T or C they get a large swath of the world just not the West and so you know what's what's what's interesting when you leave the US bubble or the Western bubble I guess more appropriately is you have to acknowledge the fact that there are some countries that that are kind of racist policies you know I've talked about this where a lot of countries figured like you know where are you in the pecking order in relation to them and I remember going somewhere the Middle East ones and I was watching this poor guy in front of me get harangue by the border guard and I'm like oh okay calm down you know when someone people get in my face and I get a little little testy sometimes and so I I got ready and I went up in like I say hey man were you coming from like I flew in from mud two believes these are cool like how's the weather and tably see I'm like wait a second I think I in front of me is like Pakistani and I'm white yeah okay I see how it goes they don't really like the Pakistanis I guess it's just their thing and is it fair no I'm sure someone Andrew said that I'm not saying it I'm saying here's the reality okay when you live in the normal world this is the way the normal world works like it or not I I do think being you know tall and white and blonde and blue-eyed I guess probably helps in some cases [Music] that said I know we have some folks in the audience who are you know of color and I don't know that again if we look at most countries in the world is not caring I don't think it's a huge issue I know we've had people who in the audience who are Indians and they say you know even if they're Indian American by the way they go places and and it's like oh I don't if it's the passport I think it's more that there are certain places where you know you're not going to escape it perhaps if you're if you're an American listen I mean you know do you want or the reason why part of the reason why Israelis don't have visa-free travel to the US it's partially because the US says you treat Arab Americans differently than you treat everyone else and we're not going to tolerate that you're either letting all of on that Americans in or you're not letting them in and so Americans can't go to Israel visa-free but the United States claims I don't know if it's the case or not but they claim that Israel is you know less friendly to folks who are who are Arab so I don't think if the passport that's the issue just the same way as you know if I if I were to get you know if I had you know a an African passport or something I think I'd probably have less scrutiny because I look this way then someone who you know was born there like it or not and I'm not saying it's fair but I'm saying it I think it's what it is do you think that it's easier to be an expectation ago well again I mean what I talk about is you know in 1984 the best places to be born I believe the United States was number one West Germany was on the list now the United States I believe is barely in the top 20 has the United States gotten worse perhaps I mean but what you've seen is the emergence of countries around the world you know such as South Korea Singapore has certainly solidified its position countries that have decided they wanted to win and are now very formidable places I mean I don't know that necessarily would have wanted to move to Korea now you can move to Korea and and while you might have a language barrier at times it's certainly a very developed in in a very good infrastructure place so I think that two things Drive the ability to be an expat in terms of living outside of the United States that's it you have far more places that have been you know built up and developed and that are that are livable I also think that to that point the paradigm has changed you know I once said a couple years ago when the when Trump was running for office I said if you're gonna build a wall please make sure I'm on the Mexican side because I'd rather live in Mexico quite frankly you have a lot of the good things about the United States the diversity the food the culture the the hustle and bustle at least in Mexico City without some of the annoying things and so you know I think if people open up their minds to the idea that you know Mexico for example it's not so bad in fact maybe in my mind it's even a little better that you know it makes it more feasible I don't think I mean if you ask my grandmother my grandmother is fascinated with with the angular world she's fascinated with England I mean she minored in French she's fascinated with France you know I tell her you know we're going to Cambodia I mean you know she knows there was a war there I mean she knows history very well but she would never think hey that's the place I would live or invest or spend my time so I think that's what's changed from from a citizenship point of view yeah I mean I think if you look back to the early 2000s I think every passport was far inferior to what it is now there's been a huge wave of visa-free travel opening up over the last 10 to 15 years I mean again take the Russian passport from about 50 countries visa-free to almost 120 now because we're more globally connected a lot of these countries are doing deals you know I have passports where every year they'll get two three four new visa-free countries we're constantly adding countries including those that a US passport doesn't have because countries want to open up investment you know they want to open up people coming in cultural exchange that's important and again countries realize it's a competitive world so you know the idea of you know Armenia and Paraguay getting together and saying hey we hope that we can send a few people in between and maybe do some business because we don't want to be uncompetitive you know not only do I see great progression into your be passports but every passport is has improved and so I think we live in a world where these are if you travels being more and more thing even countries like Belarus or Kazakhstan that you know we're part of the you know the Soviet era are now saying yeah let's let everybody come and then they're making it easier and more easier and then they're gonna have an evz and I just think that the direction of the world means that you no longer need that one excellent passport anymore it's pretty easy to get around with what I call the T or B passport because they're constantly improving and they're actually pretty good these days Jason asked isn't renouncing for low-level rich people the nine and ten figure entrepreneurs don't renounce they maximize the US citizenship well I mean certainly you know you look at you know Bill Gates or Warren Buffett or Jeff Bezos you know are those people and you say yeah they you know they maximize it what's always intriguing to me is you know US citizens are very protective of their own nationality but yet if Jack Ma or you know someone else from China or someone else from any other countries a Russian guy for example one of the renounce their citizenship they would say oh that's fantastic when in reality I mean Chinese citizens from what I see pretty much do what they want when they're overseas I mean you know and then they go back to their embassy and they're treated very well so it's interesting that even though the restrictions and those people are probably you know less that Americans feel but no American will bat their eyes it of course that guy threw his Chinese passport in the trash that's what he should do you know listen people do what's right for them you know Bill Gates has paid six billion dollars in taxes as we said earlier and that's what what's he he is claimed on a personal level obviously you know if you have a hundred billion dollars having paid six billion and we don't know I don't know when these figures are I'm just I'm just repeating figures that I've you know seen in his speeches but it's a lesser it's a lesser byte for someone like him by the way you've seen people like Eduardo Saverin again from Facebook who renounced and I guess saved hundreds of millions of dollars you saw Tina Turner you've seen a lot of people over the years so you have seen a lot of successful people doing it I also know that there have been people who have come to me we've had some high-level people who names you would know who have come to me and said you know I might want to renounce but I can't because I'm a public figure and I'm selling stuff and you know the masses wouldn't like it and so if that got out you know I'd see a big hit in my business and so it's just better for them to stay and deal with with everything yeah I mean isn't I mean you know I don't know that Bill Gates or Warren Buffett share you know share the same reasoning that I have and nor do I know nor should we surmise I do think there's kind of this this thing but what's interesting is that the same people saying well you know you're just a you know a poor sucker are the same ones who are saying to those guys don't pay enough tax you know the average person you know who lives in the United States doesn't have all the advantages I mean if you're Bill Gates you know paperwork is pretty easy you know so people should do what they want what would you say to someone who wants to follow in your footsteps well but I tell people you know I think I opened with was you have to get to a point where you're calm about it and when you realize it's the right decision for you I mean what I've seen sometimes is like people trying to do this retaliatory renunciation and you know nobody's gonna miss you you know there is ego around this and I'm not saying it's ego again I'm not saying it's you go in a bad way but there's an ego around this thing where it's like being American is some great privilege there's this ego around like if you renounce you know your US citizenship that they're gonna sitter like everyone at the Embassy is gonna sit around and cry you know you're just gonna do what's right for you and you have to have your own reasons I have a whole smorgasbord of reasons some other people might just have a purely financial reason and it might be painful for them but they're gonna say hey you know what I mean it's worth it everyone has to have their own reasons I don't judge I think a lot of other people judge I don't judge and if you listen everybody else you you're never going to be successful you've got to do what's best for you but if you think that yeah you're you're getting back at someone or you're showing them I mean that's not gonna that's not how it works are we having Estelle Jaques thinking about the US you know I look back through you know my my business career in my life and I you know I talked once about how you know when I was 22 23 years old I was you know just building up my business and I would I would have clients and consulting gigs and work in Southern California lived in Arizona and I would drive usually overnight because I was young and he'd get rid of those you know bleeder and a half mountain Dew's that you get in the us at the gas station if you just pull an all-nighter do you drive and you'd get three hours of sleep and then you'd get to work you know and I would talk about you know driving into into Los Angeles and you know being a radio geek and working in that in the broadcasting industry you know tuning in to KFI and listening to this booming you know amazing radio station in the big city and so I have memories like that that you know I am you know I missed a joke I've I had a day maybe you know nine months ago or so but mrs. H and I were driving back in the car from kind of a little road trip and I was listening to all these old radio station legal IDs you know for radio Korea Los Angeles and stuff and it's fun what I think I'm very cognizant of is you know that was interesting because I was 22 years old if I went back now pulling an all-nighter to Los Angeles in the car would be miserable because I just don't really like driving anymore I can't really pull all-nighters the way I did when I was 22 and you know it's interesting because you're aspiring to that you know when you're 22 years old it's like wow it's okay if only I never we tried to get a we tried to get some of our clients into KFI one time was very difficult it's like if only I could see the inside of KFI and then finally we did go because we finally had a client who wanted to be on one of their sister stations and we did a big deal and and it's like all right you know the curtain is down and it's no longer as interesting so I think that you know the older you get you know nostalgia becomes more dangerous because you can't go back in time you know you can't go back and recreate those memories and to me that's what nostalgia is it's a series of events at a certain time in your life that you're just not going to recapture I think being present is really what's most important and you know I think you could live pretty much anywhere in the world including the great number of places that are available to you if you just enjoy the present do you think you will ever go back well the thing about citizenship that transcends permanent residents temporary residents tourist visa you know visa waiver you know whatever these citizens have something unique that no one else has which is to guarantee right to get him and they can't turn you away even if you if you show up in the United States in you're a US citizen if you show up without a passport it's gonna take them a while to process you and figure out but you know eventually they have to let you in the passport is essentially a tool of convenience so it's not entirely my decision I would like you know what what mrs. H has encouraged me to being from her stronger family back friend you know she'd like me to go and see my grandmother who's been a very influential part of my life and and and so she'd like me to do that I'd like to do that I suppose I think what's interesting is after I after I renounced I felt like oh now that I have this great sense of calm and I don't have you know I don't feel like this is my place anymore hey I can go back to Miami for a week and just kind of hang out and I think very quickly that dissipated like if I wanted to do that I would have done it when I have the opportunity to you know guaranteed I alternate Li think that for me sure I wouldn't rule out going back what if L look at my own family you know my grandmother who's still alive she remarried a gentleman who was from from Czechoslovakia had a very interesting story he was hung in effigy and could never go back and he never got to visit his mother's grave they had the opportunity to go on a cruise once when they were retired and and they were advised not to get off the boat in in what was then Czechoslovakia because they didn't have any problems and and so by the time that it had opened up and he could have come back his health was just really poor a lot of nice Richards he couldn't go back I wish I would have been able to connect with him more and now that I know what I know outside of the bubble than what I did when I was you know a teenager but I think that his story was very fast and it's an example of even if you can't go back you know life goes on and I think he had a great life and he you know had a great you know new family and I look at that as an example where I think so many people are chasing and the one thing then they get one itis you know I mean you can't live in a world whether you're a citizen or not I don't think we're you know only one place matters if only one place matters then then you know maybe this isn't for you maybe you just live there and just deal with it and what if they don't let you back why I guess it's the same story you know here's how I look at things in life is we all make decisions and we live with the consequences of our decisions other people make decisions and they all have to own those decisions as well I mean you know if that's their decision then like that's on them and I'll live with that and I'll be ok with that because I'm a business guy who does risk analysis and I look at best-case scenario worst-case scenario you know likely scenario yeah I mean I I think that I have to accept as does anyone in the situation as would you as would anyone else I mean you know who knows what could happen who knows what has happened in any country my view is go where you're treated best I feel I've done that I feel I've done the best in my life to be happy and you know what I feel like as I've come to peace with this and I've created a sense of calm and I created a greater sense of respect towards the country that I left if they don't reciprocate respect I guess that really says more about them than it does about me Andrew thank you for being here and answering a lot of thought-provoking questions so those who've you watching please leave a comment we'd love to hear from you

Channel: Nomad Capitalist

Views: 164,405

Rating: 4.707212 out of 5

Keywords: nomad capitalist, go where you're treated best, renounce us citizenship, renounce darkness, renounce citizenship, renounce citizenship us, renounce citizenship USA, renounce citizenship become stateless, b1 b2 visa interview questions, renounce your citizenship, renunciation of citizenship, US citizenship renunciation, give up us citizenship, expatriation tax, expatriate, expatriation, form 8854, us embassy, FATCA, FBAR, us passport, moving overseas, live abroad

Id: aeReJ4IZocM

Length: 98min 45sec (5925 seconds)

Published: Thu Dec 12 2019