He took the body out
and threw it into the river. - Policeave been watching
John Gacy's suburban Chicago
home for the past 10 days. - He was not the person
that I knew before. - The number of bodies
found today are six. - Oh, my God! You mean,
we've got more than one? - The horror that followed--
unreal. - To this day, I still don't
know how my brother ended up at John Gacy's house. - One time he looked at me
and he said, "You know, clowns get away
with murder." [camera shutters clicking] - I said, "John,
did you do this?" How do you love
somebody that's so evil? - John Wayne Gacy,
it's time for you to die! - My name is Karen Kuzma. My brother was John Wayne Gacy. I'm so sorry of what John did
to your whole family. - I just-- I just--
I just can't... Woman: Serial killers
devastate everyone around them. I know. I'm Melissa Moore, and
my father murdered eight women. My story encouraged
other family members of killers to come out of the shadows. It's now my mission
to help them on their journey to reach out to the families
of the victims and express their sorrow
for the crimes. This is the intimate horror of
having a monster in my family. John Wayne Gacy
could've been a poster boy
for American values, born and raised
in the country's heartland. Instead, he earned infamy
as one of the world's most prolific serial killers. Those closest to Gacy never imagined he was
capable of such brutality. - He was the big brother.
We were very, very close. I was his sidekick.
I was always following him. When we got the news,
we were totally in disbelief. - This morning,
police charged Gacy with murder. The total number of victims--
still unknown. - The thing that still goes
through my head is it didn't even look
like my uncle in the back seat of that car. It wasn't the man
that I remembered. Melissa: Gacy's victims
were all young men between the ages of 14 and 21. - When my brother Johnny
disappeared, we had no idea what happened. Melissa: Patti Rich's family was devastated to discover her
brother died at Gacy's hands. - The lawyers wouldn't let us
say anything to these families. We were never able to apologize. Meeting Patti, I do hope,
will bring closure for her. I'm so sorry for their loss. I'm sorry sorry
that he did what he did. To be able to put your sympathy
out there and let them know that you care about them and
that you care about their loss is very important. Melissa: It's been more
than three decades since the discovery
of John Wayne Gacy's victims, but the world is still stunned
by his crimes. I'm in the neighborhood
that John Wayne Gacy grew up in. I'm on my way to meet up with
Karen and her daughter Sheri. We're gonna go
to Karen's childhood home that she shared
with John Wayne Gacy. Afterwards, I'm taking
them to meet Patti Rich. It'll be the first time Karen will meet a relative
of one of her brother's victims. - So this is where you grew up? - This is where I grew up. Brings back some memories. - Mm-hmm. - Good memories 'cause I walked
down those stairs with your dad when we got married. - Your wedding pictures.
- Our wedding pictures. - Karen, nice to meet you.
I'm Melissa. - Nice to meet you.
Hi, how are you? - This is your beautiful
daughter, Sheri. - I'm a little slower than last
time I walked up these stairs. Melissa: Karen lived in this
modest home with her parents,
Edna and John Gacy, Sr. and her siblings Joanne
and John Gacy, Jr. - This is the living room,
and this is where we watched TV. It's the family time
after dinner. John was funny.
He liked to clown around, but he was more of
a serious boy than just being out there,
being carefree. - I can only imagine this
might be bittersweet. How do you feel being here? - It's kind of sad in a way,
you know, to be back here
and think of the things that took place in these rooms. - I wonder what it sounded like. - It was a quiet home. When our dad was home, we had to really pretty much
just be on the quiet side. Melissa: Karen's dad has
a hair-trigger temper, and the whole family
lives in fear of setting it off. - I just learned
to shut my mouth, but John would somehow--
he'd always make my dad upset. They had a rough relationship because I think
of my dad's alcoholism, and nothing John could do or say
was ever right. My dad had
an old barber chair razor strap that he would use on us,
and he didn't care how he hit us, or how hard,
or how many times. - My uncle's relationship
with my grandfather was tough. He wanted him to be a man's man, and my uncle just didn't
measure up. He wasn't ever going to be the
hunting and fishing kind of guy. My uncle liked to cook. He liked to be in the kitchen
with my grandmother. He would help my mom
when she baked cookies or made bread or anything,
and she'd make these press cookies,
where you decorated them, and he would actually
help decorate. Melissa: The children's bedrooms
are upstairs. - This is John's room, and he actually slept
over there, on the bed. - The same placement. - Yeah, pretty much the same. The same size.
It's kind of ironic. There was a door there. He had a little "Keep Out" sign
that he put on it that you just didn't enter
his room. That was his private domain. Melissa: But when Gacy's
about 13, Karen goes snooping. I went in,
and I saw a paper bag. And, of course, girls are always
a little nosy. Well, there was some
silk pants in it. - It was panties or pants? - Panties. Girl's panties. Silk panties. Later I told my mom about it. She told my dad about it. There was some loud talking
and whatever about what was this doing in there
and where did they come from, and John denied
that he put it in there. Then my mom told me later
that my brother had this fetish when he was a real little boy,
and she had found some of her panties under
a staircase in a brown bag. When John was about 17, him and
my dad had a really big fight, and it had to do over a car
which John had saved for and bought. He took off.
We did not know where he was. My mom finally got my dad
to get an investigator, and they found he was in Vegas. He actually went to work
at this mortuary. Now, exactly what he did,
I don't know, but it had to do with some
of the dead bodies. When he came back a year
and a half later, he was just totally different,
more into himself. Melissa: Yet once on his own,
Gacy seems to excel. He manages a shoe store, and at age 22 marries a coworker
and has two children. - They then move
to Waterloo, Iowa. John took over
the business there for his father-in-law
and ran it. And for the first time in John's
life, my father approved of him. It was a relationship
my brother had never achieved. Melissa: But Gacy is secretly
leading a double life. - John was arrested,
and he was charged with sodomy
of two teenage boys. We were totally in disbelief. He told us he was set up, that
it was a political maneuver. He was running for an office against another very popular man
in the community. It was his son charging
and saying what John had done. When the trial came,
John got the maximum sentence. We were able to visit with John
for a little bit, and even my dad said, you know,
this is why you shouldn't get involved. This shouldn't
happen. You've been set up. We thought
he was totally innocent. Melissa: Gacy is sentenced
to 10 years in prison. His wife divorces him, and he
never sees the children again. [ singing ] - When he went to prison,
he was a model prisoner. Most people in Iowa could not
say enough nice things about him being
a prisoner there. Melissa: Gacy even makes
use of his cooking skills. - The men,
with the exception of the turkey which they get
a generous proportion of and the pumpkin pie
that will be served, are allowed to take as much
as they want to eat. - While he was there, our father was diagnosed
with cancer and passed away
three months later. John always felt guilty. He thought he killed my dad with the big letdown
of him ending up in jail. My dad died from cirrhosis
of the liver, which was because
of his drinking. We tried to reason with John
about that, but he still felt
that Dad died with that shame. - He was sentenced to 10 years. He ended up
serving only 18 months. He was able
to get the prison officials to think that he wasn't
a danger to anyone else. Melissa: In 1970,
Gacy returns home to Chicago. With his mother's help, he purchases a home
to live in with her. - When John came back nobody,
to my knowledge, knew anything
about his conviction. My mom, sister, and I
never talked about it. That was just like
a nightmare that went away. Melissa: Two years later, he starts his own
construction business, focusing on painting,
decorating and maintenance. - John Gacy was
a very successful businessman, active in the local
Democratic party, very well liked. He had July 4th parties
at his house, which were a who's who
of Cook County politics. - My uncle was the life
of the party. He loved to have get-togethers. Everything was just fun. - He started posing as a clown, so he was called
to various events. Even with my kids, they all loved
when he was Pogo the Clown. I remember one time,
I went with him in his full
clown makeup and everything, and passing out balloons
and taking pictures with the kidsand having a good time doing some clown tricks
and stuff. - He would meet
important people. Mayor Daly. He even got clearance to be
with Rosalynn Carter. It was just he felt
like the man of the year. Melissa: Gacy even has
a new wife, Carol. - When John told me
he was dating Carol, my childhood
friend from high school, it was really
kind of a shock to me. I could not see
the two of them together, but I was happy for him,
and when I talked with her and found out how much
she really loved him, I was happy for her
that she found happiness, 'cause she hadn't had
that in her life. Melissa: Gacy's mother
moves out, while Carol
and her daughters move in. But when his new family
is out of town, 29-year-old Gacy picks up
a teenage runaway named Tim McCoy
at a bus station. - I think
at that time it was just a sexual involvement
with a young man, and in the morning they came
into a physical tussle, and he ended up stabbing him; and that was the only victim
that was stabbed. Melissa: But in 1972, no one
even knows the boy is missing. Over the next year, Karen
notices a change in her brother. - John and Carol
came for Thanksgiving, and they were talking
about something that had been on the newscast,
and he just made a comment. He said, "Well, I would just
shoot the bastard." And I just looked at him and
I said, "You don't mean that." And he said,
"You don't know me." And I just told him, I said,
"You know, John," I said, "I'm seeing something
happening to you that I just don't understand." Melissa: What she's seeing
is a monster in the making. John Wayne Gacy is
about to launch a killing spree that will shock the nation. Melissa: Karen Kuzma is
a sister of one of America's most notorious serial killers,
John Wayne Gacy. Decades after his crimes, she and her daughter Sheri
are back in Chicag to express their sorrow
to those most affected by her brother's murders. - I'd like the victims' families to know just
how sorry we really were that they lost somebody way
before their time. - I hope he does get
the electric chair. Then that'll make
everybody feel better. I'm sure it'll make the other
mothers feel better, too. Melissa: In 1974, John Wayne
Gacy is living a double life, but some of his activities are starting to raise questions
among his family. - My husband and I moved
to Arkansas in '74. My sister-in-law would come
and stay with us sometimes for weeks on end. She'd come when the kids
were out of school. She said that he would go
out late at night, always saying he had something
he had to go do or he had to meet somebody. Melissa: Gacy often comes back
with young men his wife doesn't know. - There was a kid
out in the car, and I said, "Who's out in the car?"
He said, "I was just coming by to pick up something
in the garage." Then the kid got out, and I saw that in the light
that he had blond hair. After he left,
I went in the garage, and I saw a blanket on the
floor, a red light on the wall, a mirror, and some heavy chains
sitting on the floor. I don't know what they were for. - Did you ask him?
- I never asked him, 'cause I didn't want him to know
that I had been in that garage. Melissa: On one visit, Karen sees John's marriage
is in trouble. - His temperament was shorter. He wasn't as tolerating,
even with his wife. Melissa: In the summer of 1975, Gacy's wife ends the three-year
marriage and moves out. Gacy focuses on his business. - He was always frustrated over the young men
that worked for him. And I told him, I said,
"Why don't you get some adults?" And it was like
he couldn't pay them enough, and he had to use people
that were willing to learn, was always his answer. Melissa: Gacy offers teenage
Tony Antonucci a part-time job. - I was saving up, like most
16-year-olds, for an automobile, so that sounded pretty good
to me. Melissa: One night when
Tony's parents are out of town, Gacy unexpectedly shows up
at his door. - He said he had been in the
area and he was checking on me. I was a wrestler in high school, and he kind of played into that
to say, you know, come on wrestler guy.
Let's see what you want. It was kind of boy fun
kind of stuff. In the process of that,
all of a sudden, a handcuff was
on one of my wrists. And then I started
swinging my arms around, trying to keep him
from getting the other arm. You know, I was 16 years old, and John was about 33
or 34 at the time, and he put the cuff
on the other wrist, but I was fighting
and struggling in such a way that he did not get it on
very securely. He went into the other room,
and I pulled as hard as I could, scraped all the skin off
my knuckles, but I pulled my hand
out of the cuff. He walked back into the room, and the thing
that was probably the lifesaver is I kept my hand
behind my back, so it appeared
like I was still cuffed. He walked to my side
and pretty much, I just grabbed
both of his legs and did a good double leg takedown
on him-- wrestling move, and he went down to the floor, and I cuffed him. I think that shocked
the hell out of him. And he says,
"You're the only one that not only got out
of the handcuffs. You got them on me." I continued to work for John because he pretty much explained
those incidences as tests, and, you know, you felt good
about passing a test. Melissa: Today,
Tony counts himself lucky. Handcuffs were Gacy's
favorite ploy. - One of the confessions
that I was involved in with him, he said he would put
the handcuffs on himself behind his back,
and then all of a sudden the handcuffs were off. He would then explain
to the kid, all right, I'm going to put the handcuffs
on you, and you're going to be able to figure out how to
get out of the handcuffs. And, of course,
the kid would struggle. - Then comes the rope trick, and Gacy would take
this piece of rope and say let me just show you
this magic rope trick, and he'd put it around the neck. The victim was still
going along with this, thinking it was all magic
tricks, and Gacy had the rope in the back and just
strangled them. [ train whistle blows ] Melissa: Two weeks after
Antonucci escapes the cuffs another Gacy employee,
John Butcovitch, disappears. - One day John Butcovitch
didn't show up to work, and we were waiting to get going
because we were supposed to go work together that day. And John Gacy said he had gotten a phone call
from John Butcovitch that he went to Puerto Rico. Melissa: Soon after, Tony notices some fresh concrete
in Gacy's garage. I says, "Wow, you patched the
floor in this small tool area. It would've been
pretty hard to do that," and he said,
"Yeah, it was all cracked." And I go, yeah, maybe there was
a crack in the floor but nothing
that needed repair at all. Melissa: John Butcovitch
is never seen alive again. Gacy's murders are just
getting started, and no one who knows him
suspects a thing. Melissa: It's been almost
four decades since John Wayne Gacy's murders
were discovered, but his family still lives
with a sense of guilt towards his victims
and their families. - I want them to know
that I truly am sorry for what my uncle did. - I think there was so little
given to the families. Their loved one was lost,
and everything was about him and the trial instead of
the loss of a person. - I never know
when I meet someone. Are they gonna think
that somehow I can become, like, a killer like my dad? And then I got fearful,
and I started doing research. Is it in DNA? How did my dad
become who he is? - You'll always question that. I even had an autopsy done
on his brain to find out if there was
anything hereditary. They found nothing. Melissa: In January of 1977, another Chicago teenager
vanishes-- 19-year-old John Szyc. - My brother John was
about two years older than me. There were five of us
in our family--five kids. Johnny was the middle child. He was a very outgoing person. He loved animals. He used to bring home
stray dogs, stray cats. He even brought home
a bullfrog one time. Johnny wanted to be
in the film industry, to go to California
and make movies. He didn't show up to work
on Thursday. He didn't show up to work
on Friday, and it was pay day. When you're a teenager, and
you live paycheck to paycheck, you don't skip pay day. - What we know is that John
was on a date that night, and he had taken his date home, and somewhere later
that evening, he ran into Gacy. Melissa: Gacy fits his car
with red flashing lights to make it look like
an unmarked police cruiser. - He would see somebody
that he wanted as his prey. He would stop 'em,
turn his red lights on, say, "You're out after curfew.
Get in the car." He might handcuff 'em
before he got in the car, and that's probably
what happened to John. - My mom went ahead and paid
for February's rent, just in case he did go somewhere
that no one knew about, which would've have been
very strange, and we waited. Johnny never came back. - Computerization
of missing people didn't exist at that time. A lot of these missing persons
cases went unnoticed. A missing kid in Chicago
is just a form that gets filled out
and filed away. Melissa: For at least six years, John Wayne Gacy has gotten away
with murder, but his happy businessman facade
is showing cracks. - During our visits to Chicago,
John's attitude changed. He was more stressed. He was irritable all the time. There had definitely been
a change in his personality. Melissa: On December 11, 1978,
Gacy goes after his next victim. Fifteen-year-old Robert Piest
is working part-time at a drug store in Des Plaines,
a suburb north of Chicago. - His mother arrived
at the drugstore about 15 or 20 minutes before
he was supposed to get off work. - And Rob said to his mom,
"Hold on a minute, Mom. I'm gonna talk to this guy
about another job that pays a lot more." - Fifteen, 20 minutes
went by and the mother walked out
to the parking lot, and the boy
was nowhere to be seen. Melissa: It's his mother's
birthday, but instead of celebrating,
they go to the police station to file a missing persons
report. This time it's clear. Robert Piest is no runaway. - He'd loved his life,
and he was an Eagle Scout and all of the things that
made him an all-American boy, and he just had absolutely
no reason to go anywhere. - People at Nisson pharmacy said the last person
known to talk to Robert Piest was John Gacy. Melissa: The day after
the teen goes missing, detectives knock on Gacy's door. - When I went to Gacy's house, he was irritated and
seemed to be bothered by our appearance at his house. He totally denied having contact
with the young boy. Melissa: Gacy's behavior
sets off alarm bells. Police check his background
and make a shocking discovery-- his Iowa prison record. - This guy had served time
in prison for sodomy, and it involved younger men. And the hair stood up
on the back of our necks. This has got to be
the guy we're looking for. We were still looking
for one missing boy. We didn't know
the whole scenario of what we were getting into. Melissa: Karen Kuzma, the sister of serial killer
John Wayne Gacy, has come home to Chicago to meet a relative of one
of her brother's victims for the first time. - Being a mother, all I could envision was what
would it be like to be told that your child was murdered. It's not even imaginable. Melissa: Almost 40 years
after the discovery of her brother's victims,
the shock still reverberates. - I'm really hoping it's
going to end some day soon. When you've lived
through something as many years as I've lived through this,
it traumatizes you. I mean, God only knows, I tried
to commit suicide twice, because I didn't want to have
to put up with it. But I had children,
and I knew I had to go home no matter what happened.
I'd go on for them. - The more she talks about it, I think life
gets a little happier for her. - Finally for the first time
in my life say how sorry I was
to the victims' families. I'm just hoping
it's going to help them. Melissa: In December 1978, police are searching
for Rob Piest, a 15-year-old who went missing
from a local drugstore. After Gacy's identified as being
in the store at the same time, police learn
of his Iowa prison record. - This has got to be the guy that's probably responsible
for this missing Robert Piest. Melissa: Investigators detain
Gacy at the police station, while they search his home
for Rob Piest. - Some searched the garage.
Some searched the kitchen. The detective who was with me,
we searched closets. He looked down on the floor,
and he said, "Lieutenant, come here.
I want to show you something." And basically what happened is
the whole floor lifted, which revealed a trapdoor, and there was a crawl space
underneath it. We crawled down
into this crawl space area, looking for one missing boy. And when we came out
of the crawl space area, our clothes were covered
with white powder-- limestone that was
ground and was used for taking the dampness
out of the crawl space, or at least
that's what we thought. Melissa: They find no sign
of Rob Piest. However, the house
does contain items that don't seem
to belong to Gacy. - One of the things that they
brought back was class ring, and there was
a J.S. inside of the ring, and that led us to a young man
by the name of John Szyc. - The Des Plaines
Police Department called, and they asked for John Szyc. My mom told him that he's been missing
since January 20, 1977, and within a few minutes, like as if they were just
sitting outside, they were at the door. - Our antennae just went crazy
with the idea that, oh, my God, you mean
we've got more than one? - The possibility
that my brother was murdered never crossed my mind. Melissa: Police want
to search Gacy's house again, but they need another warrant. Until they can get it, they put
eyes on him day and night. - One of us would be parked
in front of the house, and the other would be parked
in a cross street here to look at the back of the house
to make sure we could see if he happened
to go out the back door, but he would park here
in the front. Melissa: As Christmas
approaches, Gacy makes a holiday phone call
to his sister Karen with news he's being followed. - When I got
on the phone to him, I said, "Who's following you?" I said, "Is it somebody
after you or what?" He said, "No, it's the police." He said,
"They're investigating something that's going on in Chicago." And he said,
"Somehow my name got into it." I would be scared to death, but he would laugh about it. - Gacy had been playing a game with these surveillance
officers. He was letting them come
into his house. He was buying them drinks. - He really thought he was going
to convince the cops that he was Mr. Nice Guy. - He would talk
about his charitable activities, which included being a clown. One time he looked at me
and he said, "You know, clowns can get away
with murder." - One of the surveillance
officers asked Gacy if he could use the bathroom
in his house. Gacy said, "Go right ahead." - And he goes in there,
and you've got to remember the furnace comes up
from downstairs. That police officer
later comes to us and says, "I smelled the odor of death." - And that's what we used
as a basis for a second search warrant. [ sirens wail ] Melissa: Armed
with a new warrant, detectives immediately send
forensic experts down into Gacy's crawl space. - The first thing that they did was realize
that there were some mounds, and they started digging
carefully. - And after about 15 minutes, an evidence technician
called up to me. He said, "Lieutenant, I've got
three bodies down here." - We got a phone call, and he said
that I'm John's lawyer. He said, "I'm calling
to let you know John's been arrested
for possible murder." And I said, "That can't be." I just--
I was totally in disbelief. - That was the day
that I saw my mom's life go immediately
from light to dark. - It was like being
in the worst dream in the world, that you just wanted it to end. Our whole world changed. Melissa: Karen's brother
is under arrest. Detectives are at his house
digging up his victims, and the body count
just keeps rising. Melissa: The day John Wayne Gacy
is charged with murder, Karen Kuzma is suddenly saddled
with her horrific new identity-- the sister of one of the worst
serial killers in history. - The number of bodies
found today are six. - Bringing the total to? - Twenty-one. - It was... just devastating to know that he killed that many people
without nobody having known that he could do
something like that. - When I first heard
about how John was murdered, my heart just dropped. Johnny was somebody's brother. He was somebody's son. - Do you still love your brother
today? - I hated him. I hated so much,
that he took a life, many lives, and he changed so many lives,
and I was angry of what he did to my family
and my innocent children. How can I love somebody
like that? How-- how... how do you love
somebody that's so evil? That you can love them
and at the same time hate 'em? But when you let hate grow
in you, it just bitters you. - I was in the eighth grade, and if his name
came up my head went down. I mean, I literally just didn't
make eye contact with anybody pretty much throughout most of my junior
high and high school years. - I was ashamed and, I mean,
I know now I probably shouldn't have been,
but you don't know-- - Yeah. - You know,
when you're 14 years old. Melissa: Even the investigators
have a hard time dealing with the scope
of Gacy's crimes. - Gacy had confessed
that he had killed 33 people. Twenty-seven bodies were buried
in the crawl space. - It was just almost too much to comprehend,
to see the reality of what was left
of the bodies. You could just look at the skull
laying there in the ground still and it just has absolute horror
on the face. Melissa: The crawl space
beneath Gacy's house is so full of his victims, some
bodies are buried two-deep. Robert Piest is not among them. But Gacy has another confession. - This is where Gacy came, body was in the trunk,
wrapped in a blanket. He pulled off
the side of the road up there, and there's not any kind
of a shoulder, real quickly took the body out,
threw it over into the river. Melissa: Gacy tells
investigators he's done that
with three other victims. - Gacy is essentially
a sociopath. If you get a personality of that
type who's killing people, and he knows he's caught,
he wants to talk about it. - He drew on his own
a map of the crawl space. It was amazing. He knew where every body was. Melissa: Even thought
her brother is under arrest, Karen has a hard time
believing he is a killer. - I said, "John,
did you do this?" And he said, "Maybe a few." And I was... Till this day, I can't... I can't fathom
him having done that, not after growing with him. Melissa: In February of 1980, Gacy stands trial for the murder
of his 33 victims. - He basically just
the entire time stared forward. - I was there more
to support my mother than for any other reason. - Gacy never once showed
an ounce of remorse, and people have asked me,
well, Gacy had to be nuts. Gacy was not nuts. Gacy was evil. Melissa: The jury takes
only three hours to come to a verdict--
guilty on all counts. - Justice was done. They arrived
at the only proper verdict and the only proper sentence
in this case. Melissa: John Wayne Gacy
is sentenced to death. - When he was going through his
appeal, and he kept thinking he was going to win the appeal
and be out, I thought,
not on God's green earth will you ever be out and about because I would've made sure
that he was locked up. I could never have gone through
knowing he killed somebody else. Melissa: After 14 years
of appeals, Gacy's execution is set
for May 1994. - I've had confession,
I've had communion, and I am at peace with myself. - John Wayne Gacy,
it's time to for you to die! Melissa: Karen sees her brother
for one last time. - It was really, really hard
to again, even knowing all of what he did,
to leave there knowing that he was going to be killed. I was not going
to see him anymore. Melissa: John Wayne Gacy
is executed on May 10, 1994. - When I think about John Gacy, I realize there were a lot more
victims than the 33 bodies. My dad's diabetes
went off the charts, my mom had a heart attack, and they're not
the only families that were affected medically. So, he had a lot more victims
than the 33 kids. - You're gonna meet Patti
pretty soon. What are your thoughts
about meeting her? - I hope that there is going
to be a warmth between us because they've never had that
personal sympathy given to them. - I hope she doesn't blame us. Melissa: The sister and niece
of serial killer John Wayne Gacy are about to meet the sister
of one of his victims for the very first time. So, Karen,
this is a really big day. - Yeah, I'm really hoping
that this is going to help. It's a good day, you know,
to at least be able to do this. - By meeting Patti, somehow she will know
how we felt back at that time. - My mom never really got to say that she was sorry
for what my uncle had done. I'm hoping for my mom that
it helps her to heal even more. - Patti's going
to be here any minute. What are you feeling? - A little bit nervous. Her reaction. - A little anxious, not sure how she'll be
with my mom. [doorbell rings] - Hi, Patti. Come on in. All right, Patti,
this is Karen. - Hi, nice to meet you. - Nice to meet you. - This is my daughter Sheri. - Hi, Sheri, nice to meet you. - Nice to meet you. - All right, let's have a seat. - I have never had
the opportunity to talk to any
of the families, and I always wanted to say, especially Patti, you and your
mom, that I'm so sorry of what John did
to your whole family. - When my brother disappeared,
I was 16 years old. By the time that the bodies
started coming up, that was two years later. - I thought with each step
of his incarceration and his execution, I always felt
that that was going to be closure for everybody, but I found
it doesn't close it. - Uh-uh. No. It's-- It's a wound
that will never heal. - Mm-hmm. Right. - Patti, we would love to know
more about your brother John. What was he like? - Johnny was a little
red-headed kid as a child and was an altar boy
at the church, and he was in Boy Scouts.
He had a paper route. He was a typical boy, you know.
For me, I used to think, well, you know,
if I go to Navy Pier or whatever, I used
to think I'd see him. - Out in a crowd. - Yeah. Yeah. The news was nothing
but Gacy, Gacy, Gacy, Gacy. They'd break into the shows
to tell you some stupid thing, and if they didn't have
something to report that day, - they made it up.
- Made it up. - My husband didn't even want
me to go to the trial because he was afraid
of what was going to happen, because we knew
that we were in a city that was kinda turned
upside-down by all of it because of the massiveness
of what happened. That didn't take away
from how I still felt about the families
and their loss. It didn't take away one bit. - I feel for you. I was only 13 or 14
when it happened, but there's still a lot
of shame, and there always will be. - So much sorrow caused
for you all, and caused by someone
that I loved and apparently didn't know.
Because if I had, he would never have been
able to do that stuff. Never. There's just nothing I can take
and say to make it go away. - The one thing that
I hope you leave here with is knowing that,
under no circumstances, did I ever think you,
your sister, your children, your mother had anything
to do with this. You know, you can control
who your friends are. You can't control
who your family is. He took something away from me.
That's what made me a victim. He took your life away. The shame that you have
to carry, I just can't imagine. You lost a brother.
I lost a brother. It wasn't anyone's choice. It's just what happened. - Even though the murders
were over 35 years ago, the pain of all of it
will always be there. I think I'll take it
to my grave. It's not going to go away. Melissa: Nothing can bring back
Gacy's innocent victims. Some remain unidentified
to this day, but Karen hopes sharing
her sorrow with Patti will help honor their memory and ease the pain
for their families. - If Johnny were here, I think
that he would be pleased with me making this step
to meet Karen. He of all people
would obviously know that she had nothing to do
with this and doesn't deserve to have
the shame of her brother hanging over her. - I was going
to say the red hair. - Yeah, the red hair. - He almost looks
like a little Ricky Ricardo.
