>> On a cold Friday night in January of 2022 Boston. Police officer John o'keefe met some friends at a local Tavern we can Massachusetts called sea of mccarthy's you got there around 7 30 at 9 o'clock his girlfriend, Karen Reid showed the state a couple of hours then went across the street to another local bar called the waterfall when the waterfall closed at midnight, Brian Albert, a fellow officer invited a group of people to his house for an after party. John and Karen got into parents car head there when they arrive. Prosecutors say job got out of the car Ciaran purposely backed over and and left him in the cold to dob carriage has a much different story. She says John went inside got ambushed in the killers in the House spring. >> Her for his >> We're live from downtown Dedham Massachusetts denim House of pizza as we take a look at the morning after when Karen finds John dead in the snow what the parents say did she confessed to hitting job. Then we take a look at some of the evidence the defense claims as part of the cover up is it enough to break it all down as we continue our investigation and to the tragic death. Boston police officer John o'keefe. >> I'm very polished and great to have you with us tonight here on closing arguments we're live from downtown Dedham Massachusetts at the D Haas the Dedham House of pizza been gracious enough to host us here this evening today. Another big day inside the courtroom. It but there was a lot of testimony and information about the morning of John o'keeffe's death the morning that his body was discovered. But today I had the opp to nutty and it's tough to get in there. But I made it inside the courtroom and that is a small small courtroom. It's a tiny courtroom and there's 2 in this building, the first one that the case wasn't is enormous. And he's known for having and hosting big trials. But they moved the defense wanted to move so the jury could see the face of every witness who testified. So they're in a much smaller setting and inside there. It's it's. There's a different level of tension. In a small courtroom one everyone is next to one another and there's state getting room only capacity. You've got the family's catty corner to another the jury right on top of the witness, the defense table and the and the and the prosecutors right on top of one another. And you take all that plus the securities that that is there the judge who is running a very very tight ship and it is just. This tiny courtroom now something else about the I was in there today. So I had an inability to see and understand the dynamics inside and the first thing you have to understand is that in many courtrooms, you need the microphone, so you can hear everybody. That's not the case in this courtroom. You do like your phone vibrates ever everybody hears it. The door opens you hear it radio communications coming over the the communication system for this security officers you hear it. Someone's stomach growls you hear it so if there's a lot of focus a lot of attention and as much quiet as is possible even when they go to sidebar. Right and usually the judge goes sidebar so nobody knows what happened. I mean you can hear them at sidebar you can tell who's talking the level of the volumes of their voice that's because it is so tight inside that court. The other thing I noticed inside was this jury the jury is engaged. I call the Ping Pong effect where they will watch the question. Take a look at the answer watch the question take a look at the answer but there's a slight difference. When the prosecutor was asking the questions and when the defense was. With the prosecutors asked the question a little less painful on the more concentration just on the witness. I'm a former prosecutor that's kind of what you want because you want your witness to tell the story. But when your defense turning your cross examining someone. You are supposed to be telling the story. And the jury was listening to that store. Because the heads all turn to the defense attorneys as they were asking their questions prosecutor about half and then they would go to to the witness for the answer so from where I was sitting which is right in them middle of all of for the prosecution, their witnesses. It's getting through the jury's paying attention they've got their notebooks for the defense the jury's paying attention not just to the witnesses but to the questions as well and today a lot of the questions of the witnesses were all about the response that morning to the scene at the home where John o'keefe was found on the law. So testimony from those first responders so before we get to that testimony. I want to take you there and go through what happened in the moments leading up to that where was care Henry. When she left how did she come back who was she with take a look. >> When Karen left she headed to John's House because that's where she was during she got there went to sleep when she got up early John wasn't there so she grabbed John Disney says cell phone and called Jennifer mccabe at 4.53. >> We're at 5 '07 carry gets into her SUV and backs out of the garage and you can see on that video does she does she not hit John o'keefe Cardwell defense is yes from there she goes to Jennifer mckee caves House when she gets to Jennifer's Kerry. Roberts joins the group. >> Kerry Jennifer encounter all get the car cherries driving. I was in the back seat and then head over to the Albert Hall. They get here at 6 o'clock in the morning, they parked on this side of the stream parents in the back seat she sees John o'keefe body right there on the yard. >> So in that video you can see that the chaotic scene right. So today, the prosecutor calling firefighter after firefighter EMT after EMT all the folks who are responding to this scene and trying to. Get this jury to understand what Karen Reid was saying. Was she admitting to what they've accused her of which is hitting John o'keefe with her car. >> This tree Visibly She kept saying. This is all my fault, this is my fault I did very hysterical. And she said she kept he's dead is he dead is he dead you never wants for say. >> I did it correct or not. You never once heard her say it's my fault, correct. I did not. You never once heard her say I you know I hit him I hit him correct I did not. >> As I was ventilating I was able to ask. Did anybody see anything that anybody. The what happened and there was one individual that replied several times I hit him I hit him. >> She just repeated the phrase over and over again I hit him I hit at no point in time. Did you ever hear her say I hit him I hit him I hit a correct correct. >> You all specifically what if anything that person said. >> All I recall her saying was a is he a life and I asked her if there had been any significant trauma that happened before this. So she said I hit him. She repeated it. There's a woman sitting across from her who I believe at that point said your hysterical you need to calm down your circle. She repeated I had him. >> This is a big part of the prosecution's case, the words of Karen Reid. 3rd or allegedly her depending on who you believe here by the first responders at the scene I want to bring in court TV crime and justice correspondent Matt Johnson, who was also inside that courtroom today. Matzo this series of first responders also. >> And I heard I I hit him I hit him I hit him. >> The 3 of them said that what have we seen from the defense in risk butts to these allegations that she's basically admitting to the right like this is so important this key testimony because you had first the police officers, one of them who testified that he heard that she had hit him and then he recanted that when he was under cross. And you have with this case where the cross is doing a very good job. The defense. And I'm there explaining that they didn't initially report this 2 in their reports or even at the hospital after they said that they heard it you know and that was a big and this is one of Italy's officers and firefighters and first responders right you would expect them like of someone. >> Just admitted to something put it in the report but admitting that he didn't put it in the report firefighters that tell me about this that that there was a moment with one of the firefighters today. That's sort of caught my attention right where where something we didn't expect necessarily expect to hear Alan Jackson's cross examining. Who the flow madi madi the league I headed back up what you know that was a big surprise to everyone in the courtroom and when you have of this such small court. >> Room and everyone is close together these defense attorneys they really dealt out their voice and this jury really pays close attention and they put down their notebooks I know you notice that as well this particular witness said that. >> He actually didn't report what Karen Reid told him what he just said on the stand if we can play that right now. >> To never relayed to a single doctor or single nurse single word. Well the woman who said I hit him. The documentation for us and sat transfer patients. >> Care as far as my memory I do remember relaying that information to the doctors and nurses. You do. You never testified about that number has never been asked about >> nobody ever asked you so you can tell you about. In the court setting now testified in front of a grand jury did. So I asked a bunch of questions. During the course of that disclosed, he told doctors and nurses, you heard a woman say I hit him. >> Recall telling the doctors and nurses that there's a question of that the patient was hit. I vehicle or we don't know is what I directly sent to the doctors and nurses. >> You directly told the doctors and nurses that there was a question about whether or not he was hit by a vehicle. >> All right, yes. Have you ever. >> Said that in any context either to the police. We're in a grand jury before today. >> And you know this is so important and it's something that stood out and it kind of surprised everybody that was in the gallery shot it shocked me everyone in that jury box and he made such a big moment about it because you know does it show that his story changed. >> Right and you you starting to see I think the defense team that initially it's one thing and then all of a sudden it's something else and. >> 8 or 9 days later it something else. Now here if I'm a juror I want to hear from those doctors and nurses right now bring them in did you hear that did you. But I don't know if they're going to testify from the jury box that's what I want to hear because right now that's the first time he's ever said it to anyone I know to anyone I'm really looking forward to seeing John McCain or other from that was there >> A lot of folks here as Let's talk about care. >> Murray's demeanor at the scene so her demeanor up seen they're very different than what you're seeing in the courtroom. She is so cool. >> and confident walking a block and a half through the gauntlet of supporters we're shaking her hand and cheering Karen Reid issues walking up the steps then you go inside the courtroom again calm and collected very much a big part of her defense she's writing down notes she showing that to her attorneys. But at the scene while very different and it's being described that she's hysterical. She said running back and forth, she's running on him, she has blonde honor face because she was trying to initially get CPR yeah. >> And then you have the. >> First responders testifying, different accounts of what she was saying I hit him or did I hit ham or you know is he alive, here's some of their testimony. >> She was really upset correct. Yes would you go so far as to say she was distraught. Yes, just article. That's something like that correct trust and she didn't say it in the tone of voice that I just said correct correct. She was screaming when she said that correct. >> She's is that my boyfriend is he dead. >> When you say screaming and fairly loud voice cracked very very loud. Yes. And as far that sort of phraseology as far as to say how many times that something she said once more than once or something repeated many times as far as misread the defendant is what if anything else that you're curve as far saying I mean or anything like that. >> It just screams and the she's very distraught. >> So of course many you have the defense saying she loved the sky. She is hysterical because she didn't want him to die, she wanted him to be okay and then there are juxtaposition of that Saint John mccabe turned her back and she's super calm in this very horrific moment. >> Let's do this or bring in another guest doctor Carol Lieberman, forensic psychiatrist trial expert witness calmness. On our show all the time that Kelly may have a really important question for you. This demeanor. She's been described and we see in the video hysterical frantic, yet allegations that she saying. >> I did it I did it I did it. >> From your perspective is it possible that someone and let's presume that they're telling the truth that she said I did it could someone say I did it. Who didn't do it was in a friend, the state does that make any sense. >> It doesn't really make sense. You know what she said at the time of that seeing her boyfriend, you know in that condition and so on that would be more real then what I think has happened is because you see you drive up and you see your boyfriend, he's you know look stand in snow and all that the first thing is if you didn't do it you would think who did this to my boyfriend, what happened and here, but no she said it it so I think you have to believe that over anything else know what I think has changed is that you know as the trial or as the case proceeded you know all these these cheerleaders saying free care agreed and all of that I think that gave her a kind of false sense of courage. And now she prep she's even come it's just not that you didn't do it. Let me ask you this doctor called him. >> If in fact now let's look at the other other part of the equation here that the people who are testifying. And I say this all the time because was a prosecutor I had a lot of circumstantial cases and they had to explain to jurors why circumstantial evidence is better than direct evidence because direct evidence is usually eyewitness testimony which is the most unreliable how reliable would you think the testimony of first responders is like remembering specific things that are said whether it's I did it or did I do it. Subtle differences like that in a frantic situation where there are attempting to save someone's life could they make an honest MS. State in a situation like that. >> Well yes, it was one or 2 of them, but I think we've heard from at least 4 of them. >> Who said that they heard her say I words to that effect. >> Doctor Ko their men were at a time for tonight we appreciate you coming on always great to speak with you to get your insight. We will speak again, Matt Johnson a year. It's amazing how early got to get there to get it right, I got to stand in line. >> At 4 or 5 in the morning because there's only 10 I look. >> He looks tonight Yahoo 30 in the morning fog to a great to see you thanks so much I folks when we come back, we've got a lot more to get to we're going to look at some of the evidence here. Doesn't show pic Karen Reid was frame plus coming up next hour. >> In Boise, Idaho, the doomsday prophet Chad day Bell on trial and facing the death penalty. We are live in Boise with all the big moment, including the testimony of the profits mother. >> How would you describe Lori vallow's personality of the matter in which she spoke with very friendly. >> Reid was fine. Car never struck John o'keefe. Cause his death. That means that something else. You learn that it was no accident that John o'keefe respond to the front on 34 Fairview road you can. On January 29th 2022. You learn that at that address live a well known and well connected law enforcement Because the elements were in full. Had close connections to the investigators in this case. Was framed for murder, she did not commit. >> Let me tell you folks that was one of them boldest opening statements from a defense attorney that I've seen in years the last one was what I was down in Orlando. Many moons ago I think it's like 10 years more than 10 years whatever it was I tried to erase it. What Jose Baez turn that trial upside down David United coming out and saying Karen Reid was framed period a period so let's let's go through some of the evidence that we expected some of the evidence that we've heard with our guests joining me here live in downtown Dedham at the Dedham House of pizza known as D hop weve got Jennifer Brandt. Family law attorney who somehow strolled into New England from Philadelphia great see Jennifer also also with us Kevin Mahoney criminal defense attorney a great one also the author of the book that every trial attorney needs to buy needs to read needs to memorize it's called relent this criminal cross-examination and perhaps we'll see some of that up here in Dedham thank you both for being here so I want to go through some of this evidence and I want you to tell me if you think it helps or is it is a tough sell as part of this. Karen Reid was framed theme. So we begin we go back to the opening statement unite here talking about. The lead investigator trooper Michael Proctor let's list. >> But we need state that act and state police detective who was assigned to this case was a man what the doctor you learn one of the many people in Canton with deep ties to >> Michael whose own mother referred to the helpless as the problems second family. From the jump. Michael proper predetermine the outcome of this case will learn that one of my partners high school friends comment to him that was a dead body on the front lawn, the home or in this case is surely going to catch a lot of grief. And you know what Michael properties response to that was. During that search broward's front lawn and over pieces of was found one minute before officers looking for evidence. Was 0. Only later in the day when the snow was really starting to look up wait, but the police miraculously started to find pieces of tail light on the property. What police do we start to find pieces of tell a doctor Michael Parker sees come >> All right kev a general start with you is this a problem that the lead investigator number one saying never goes inside the home where the bodies found says it's not going to be a problem for the family. And then none of the pieces of tail light are found on that lawn until. >> He seizes. >> Karen Reed's vehicle, I think it's absolutely a problem I mean not going into the home he's doing the investigation. He doesn't going he doesn't talk to anybody he doesn't want to know what happened. He seems that he had already had his mind made up I mean that's what it sounds like. Why would why else would he go in and ask some questions Kevin is this a big I don't know. >> One not the bodies found right near the roadway. We have a we have a defendant who has said to anyone who would listen that she's the one the random over I had in my head in my in my. What was Michael Park to supposed to do we couldn't apply for a search warrant to go into the home don't know Clark with the sign off on that. So it's not probable cause winning. >> Be questioning other people he's just going to her work 40's going to say okay there's that body and she didn't she's got a crack tail light. They got all the voicemails where she's screaming she it's just the robbers prom. >> I hope I don't have one of those halls anytime soon all right. >> Let's get to another piece of evidence here this is their unity tour talking again the investigators and whether or not they investigated this case fully take a listen. >> From the homicide investigators, no one inside the over on that. The pride over to brother Kevin over is a Canton police officer. It was a lot of us very early on that Canton police should not be investigating the death one man found on the property of the brother of a Canton police office. >> Okay what about the conflicts of interest here Kevin you've got a police officer in the home as brothers a local police officer. There's a police officer dead on the lawn and no one in the home is investigated they never go inside. >> But they didn't appear to be a conflict because it appeared to them right from the beginning that Karen gray was admitting. She hadn't. So she and there's no relationship between her and Procter where's the conflict. >> Just for the very fact what you said they're all police officers they all know each other wouldn't they want to be very thorough about it and make sure that it appears to be a thorough investigation of everybody involved including other police officers all right. >> Let's get to next piece of evidence this is Alan Jackson cross-examination take a look at some video of one of the folks at the scene a witness walking into the home take a look. >> Yes, while toward the front of the House that was Jeff McKay going into the House wasn't. I have no idea what you think of the witnesses a homicide scene been allowed to go into it to make contact with other witnesses I didn't know was a homicide scene said if I can if I can finish my my question. Do you think it's appropriate for witnessed a potential homicide scene. Unconscious person see whatever crisis yes to make contact with other witnesses and begin discussing. The situation unsupervised. Can you rephrase that question Sir do you think that's an appropriate thing to have happened. >> I had no answer for that and I don't I don't know if we would use asking officer when you go to a crime scene. Yes, one of the first things that you want to do is secure the scene and separate witnesses, so that interview could be conducted correct sure what this is just coming together and getting their story straight right, correct you want to avoid that all costs. Yes, and why is that so we can collaborate there there's a story. >> All right you've got to witnesses outside going inside. Is this a sloppy investigation >> She what did she witness you can claim she witnessed him being hit. She says there with the person who is admitting she had them. So that would be no reason to corral her and prevent her from talking to anybody else. >> We're thought she's at the scene and there was a crime committed or something went on there's a dead body there. You would want and I ♪ think the investigator who testified said, I mean you would want to. Talk to each person that was they're individually not let them talk to each to do a thorough investigation. >> Now another big part of this case of the pieces of tail lights. Let's watch. David you know, he's opening statement. >> When key staff can't police chief kind of performance and older officer on the brink of retirement was probably not the best I say some warm. He supposedly was driving happen to be driving. I know that House and by the right now someone with cheaper which is also confirms and this older man allegedly spotted yet another piece of children from his moving vehicle. This was yet another piece that I was somehow missed by the train specialists for the previously and thoroughly searched the property. >> All Jennifer Brandt are you comfortable with the chief. Our former chief a week later find a big piece of the tail light I think that. >> A little I mean it just. Well I wasn't there before why didn't they see it before a week goes by that's a lot of time and people are going around the crime scene and all of us and lo and behold there's a piece of tail light I think it's a little mysterious. >> Are you bothered by not at all. >> Under this conspiracy proctored sprinkle faith the area with the with the broken glass. And all the conspirators so that why would a conspirator go back and sprinkle more class. >> How do you find something like that a week later they didn't they look more carefully and eat. >> We've got like 12 inches of snow, the snow belt it. All right, let's get to the final one this is take a look a couple of phone calls or perhaps a couple of dials in the early morning hours. Let's take a listen to David unit. >> People left the after-hours party at right now that house on January 29. We find our claim that he had no contact with anyone, but his wife until he was. >> Woken up in the morning. >> What you learn that he was ultimately confronted by the fact that his phone records revealed that he actually placed the phone call to ATF agent. Why use his front. Same thing who had been in his house earlier that night. That was at 2.22 in the morning. Brian Higgins called to the back 17 seconds later 22 seconds from their cells. >> Us like a almost simultaneous double. Dial is that possible. If there was a talking to each other. >> I don't know if they were talking to each other, but if I was in a conspiracy to cover the murder I would be talking to anybody at that hour. >> Okay, well OK, what have you have you ever haha have you ever had a double but dial. I have not you have not have you have you ever heard of a double, never okay. >> So you think this could be a potential problem if you have the homeowner and someone who is in the House after people leave communicating after saying that it. That's a bit of a problem that's a bit of a problem that he agreed on work is not all right. >> Jennifer Brandt, Kevin Mullaney thanks so much great to have you Mahoney, I'm relentless criminal cross-examination you got to tell us when your next trial was so we can watch them. I was all right fantastic I folks when we come back tomorrow, the jury's going on the view we've already done ours. >> What are they going to look for what will they see >> This is the House where the after party was and you can see where it is but we're I want to take you as to where John o'keefe was found that morning now. This is the area where I am right in here is where they say John o'keefe was found on the ground. 6 inches of snow on top of him now in the photos that we've seen in court. They've referenced certain. >> Pieces of the landscape here including this why poll that you can say. Now behind me is where the bushes would have been it looks like it's changed since then. >> The other thing they talk about is the fire hydrant and the fire hydrant is right here. So it is within this area just off the roadway where John o'keefe was found. Another one question that I've been wondering about because prosecutors are talking about Harry Reid's car going 24 miles an hour in reverse. >> First over the course of 62 feet. >> Now 62 feet she wouldn't be coming this way because this road is not 62 y she would have to be down this way 62 feet and I stepped off before it is pretty cool close to where this tree is on the neighbor's yard so she would have had to have gone to that distance in reverse and somehow struck John o'keefe sending him into this area. And the question is does that make sense and under what circumstances would she drive off. And then come back and hit him. That's the prosecution here as far as I can tell from what they've said inside the courtroom. So. As here the home that's the one thing that ♪ really really strikes me as to what exactly. >> Where was she going and did she come back to strike John o'keefe. >> And kill him on purpose. >> Welcome back we're live in downtown Dedham Massachusetts at the DEA hot Dedham House of pizza. The place is packed the food is awesome and we're taking a look at what's happening in the trial is just down the street from here want to bring in my guest, joining me right now Kevin lend a hand youtube creator, a yellow cottage tales with us as well as Nic rocco's account read supporter and expert of course all right so we've all been to the scene I told you I thought when I first got their first time at the scene what what struck you can. >> What struck me, you know what I was first driving there, it was you could see where it would be difficult for someone to see it night coming from that of the direction where Karen in Jenin Kerry came from it, it is a little bit of a challenge to wonder how Karen was able to see it so well. Your first impressions when you got to that scene. >> It's a really small I think I think people are under the impression that that is a straight road. It is a curve exactly where John Key's body was found. So she had been backing up she would hit that curve exactly where it turns so no damage to the tires. It's pretty interesting. OK so let's do this. >> The prosecutors very specific and it seems like they have some evidence about data connected to Carol Reed's car take a listen. >> Based on the known locations and travel he cycles essentially Heinz has failed on that all around 1245 in the morning when the vehicle was in front of the residence on Fairview for some period of time that people travel so 60 feet in the first over 20 of 24.2 mile route. >> 24 miles an hour 60 feet in reverse okay now I went there. I'll show you one more time because I went there I went in reverse hitting go 24 miles an hour. I wiped much slower than that but just to give you a little bit idea take a look. >> All right back up and go between 3, 4, miles an hour. >> So that was about 60 feet now we sped it up so would be closer to 24 miles an hour. You can take a look at still with me our Nic Rocco Kevin lend a hand you know when I might look at this. How could it have been done cabin which ways are vehicle facing where she going is she driving away stopping and saying I'm going to murder him in and crank it in reserve in reverse. >> Well, we know they were arguing right, but we don't know exactly what happened there. But this witness testimony that I think some people might be a little bit confused and I'm just speculating a little bit here but the public truck that was behind them that had Ryan may go as a passenger at the test why he testified to seeing them stop in front of a driveway briefly and then pull forward to the fire into the property. So what I speculate happened to that later on inside the House Jen mccabe and Matt McKay from the window. We saw the vehicle what they thought was pulling forward with the times don't really make sense because the times that they spotted it seemed to be later based on when John McCain was texting John are you hearing pull up so I think happened was she she left leaving the field when a certain distance away and then in a rage hit ♪ the gas went back. and then she got back to somewhere around the driveway stop for a moment then pulled forward a check on John ♪ I think that's what Matt and John mccabe saw from the window. >> Does that make sense to you as an issue with that because Matt mccabe states that he's staring out the window and he sees of the shape Tire marks in the snow indicating she did up a three-point turn but now the The Commonwealth is saying no she threw the car reversed as 62 feet now don't forget a little bit snowy out and they're claiming she is out of her mind drop you can't drive straight. I have tonight drinks how is she going to drive straight completely straight backwards. It hit John after being as drunk as they claim she is she's not a NASCAR drive so. >> How how does his body end up exactly where it is what direction is her car going. >> I think the car because we have to see what the state says with their accident reconstruction experts. But I think it probably clipped her here clipped him here with enough force to send him back onto the lawn where he ended up 6 to 12 what I heard in his opening statement, he said. >> struck him and then hit him again when he was on the ground so she would have had to have continues. And I'm and I'm wondering did she continue on to the law and was there anything on the lawn that indicated that an SUV had been. >> I haven't seen anything you know we haven't got to that part of the trial yet nothing's been in the public record that they going forward get on. >> Now lets get back to your first point let's take a listen to prosecute are again talking about another big Mo because the jury's going here tomorrow. So what are they going to be looking for what what do they want to know about the scene when they go for this jury view. Here's the prosecutor talking about when Karen read the following morning. Spots keep on the lawn. >> The defendant is the only one who sees Mister Yeltsin screams and as far as staff Robert we came back to stable testified that they did not see the show. Not only as they were driving past them. Well even after they got a vehicle to find get out of the back seat makes a beeline essentially right over where Mister King started the fight. >> All right governor do you think doesn't make sense that it would be tough what do you think how does she see him coming from that direction from the back seat. >> The same way the paramedic who was sitting in the passenger side said he saw a shadow figure body laying on the lawn, I mean when when and you know arrives on the scene she's in the back seat, she's actively looking for jobs. You have a driver in a snowstorm. They're saying it's a blizzard you're going to be looking forward, she's paying attention should not pressure Cup that road is is now so if another cars come down that road at that time you've got to be careful what you're doing so Karen is actively looking ♪ for jobs. So when you're looking for something you're going to find it. >> All we can do is have a lot of time they were coming there was a there were police cruisers there there were figures surrounding John so they saw the police cruiser had a spotlight on the scene so they will come into a very different scene but if you look at the first cruiser right it's amazing how dark it is even even though we know with hindsight that the women of their over John still can spot it's almost impossible to say are you gonna you learning anything from these videos really like 10 seconds left if you learn more from watching videos in court. >> I'm not really everyone's testimony is saying the same thing she's frantic. She found her Dead on the lawn nobody else was showing emotion and and you know show me the camera from across the street, the only way I'm going to leave any what camera. ♪ The deputy chief of police across the street cameras House. >> If she did it it's there I Kevin lemon yeah, I know show shows the video can land great to have you both here we'll be speaking again obviously when we come back folks I will reveal something else we need to ♪ know tonight plus coming up next hour. >> A New Jersey father's accused of abusing and murdering his six-year-old son Welcome back time to reveal something else you need to know tonight, let's go back to the studio take a look at the Big Board and see what we have tonight. ♪ There he is he accused Idaho killer back in court today going back and forth back and forth unbelievable Pickering we've got a statement from one of the Discovery discovery discovery you have we want no, I don't. Yes you do no. I don't the families getting absolutely fed up with the bickering in court we'll stay on top of it in the meantime ♪ we are we're live from the DEA half the dead in the House of pizza. >> Bringing you more and their coverage of the carrying re >> d-massachusetts Karen Reed is accused of murdering her boyfriend Boston police officer John o'keefe did she act like them for the morning after we'll take a closer look what. >> Anything else that you are as far saying her mean or anything like that. >> It just screams in the 2 very distraught. >> Then the victim John o'keefe was found wearing just one shoe what does that mean and where is the other shoe double observation that I made was that he was missing one great shoe. >> Boise Idaho, the doomsday prophet Chad daybell on trial facing the death penalty. We are live in Boise with all the big moment. >> Including the testimony of the profits mother. >> How would you describe Lori vallow's personality of the matter in which she spoke with you very friendly. >> Persuasive. >> On the docket tonight in Ocean County, New Jersey, a father accused of abuse using a murdering his six-year-old son is the prosecution winning this case. >> Corey was 6 on April 2nd. >> This hour of closing arguments starts right now. >> On the Neapolitan great to have you with us we are live in downtown Dedham Massachusetts at the guy hopped addendum House of pizza just up the block is work Tara Reid is being tried for them. >> Murder, that's an important word here them are. >> A Boston police officer John o'keefe this is a kid as for the alleged murder weapon is her SUV but it's not vehicular homicide, it's not manslaughter. It's murder. They're saying she did it on purpose, she struck him with her SUV VA he's laying in the cold a blizzard is coming. She knows it and she leaves him there to die. That's the prosecution's case. So here's the question I have tonight. Does Cameron read. Act like a murderer. Sound like a murderer. Let's begin with what it's like when she shows up to court for her. You look like a murder that. To me these are important questions we've covered so many trials through the years and I've never seen what we're seeing here in Dedham Massachusetts that want to go back about one year ago on the courthouse steps. The process was there carried her attorneys were there take a look at what happened. >> No fans on tiktok right now thank you. ♪ It feels were the only ones fighting for the truth of what happened to John o'keefe and me and my family and my attorneys and my team that Marshall every resource to get to the truth. >> I just feel like no one else ♪ >> wants it. He's been you didn't do it. We know we're good at scheme. We know we know spearheaded this coverage you all know this we didn't. >> And no she didn't know she didn't do it. This is an innocent woman she didn't. >> Doing I tried to say >> does she sound like a murderer is she acting like the murder, let me bring in my guests joining me tonight. Rick Grundy great attorney last trial I covered here in Norfolk County. He was the prosecutor yes, he won the case also with us Ed Ryan Koval defense attorney also president of the bar. What this was the president of the bar, okay. So let me ask you Rick the she sound like a murder that she act like a murder walking into court. Talking to the media on the steps. So a lot of respect for the jurors jurors boys. >> Except the integrity of what they're doing especially in the case of this nature and depth. She doesn't act like a murder he doesn't look like a murder, but if I were her counsel I would say tone it down a little bit because you looks like a celebrity. Let's go to the nuts and bolts of the case that. When we I was with you for the first time remember first like to go for it the honorable will never forget it, I said you know I feel that they've over charged with the second-degree murder. Does she look like to you 10 is the year actions as described seed do they come across as somebody who intentionally murdered some no they don't do they come across as a person who was drunk to the point where they go remembered for being on the street that night where they had an argument with her boyfriend where they purposely put it in reverse we got home basically past now black out wrong woke up and started trying to put pieces together and get there and find their boyfriend in it's no and said I hit him I hit him. Yes, she does look like that, but that's not the murder, but that's not a murder what do you think I'm >> From what years the the way she's entering the court. Every day here the way she's exiting the court. >> The House what she says how she acts. >> This is what does it look she looks like a murderer first of all. >> I've had about 40 to 50 murder cases in my career at least I don't know what a murder looks like. In all that time what I am saying here is somebody who is confident who was reacting to a crowd. That obviously supports her. I'm smiling and the rest of it is a reaction trout, it I don't think it bears much resemblance to what's about to go on and the Cook. >> You ever seen anything like this so sure you have a dog Simpson case was a circus I've seen many defendants. Every day would be greeted by Trump is going to summer he's he's not accused of murdering not the but it's the same principal I got up many defendants decide for whatever reason they want to take asylum position other defendants in this case is high profile out she got high profile lawyers. I think I agree that she shouldn't be talking outside the courthouse. But no I don't think she's acting like a murder, I think you've got to like somebody with ♪ some love. You know this case is a horror show. I have never in my well almost 50 years of experience she had a case where the police fouled up so that I could write the 3 credit who was criminal justice on what not to do it. They didn't protect the crime scene permanent. This should have been protection put out alleged crime scene from the moment, the first police arrived. Then we have the conflicts of interest on addressed I won the district attorney the case would have gone to the attorney general. I heard about these conflicts because you know when you're preparing a case that's rate far in the crucible of cross-examination to destroy the credibility. The police investigation. But they've done a good job of that themselves. They take a statement which they claim is a confession and admission I have in my in my hat, it doesn't make it into the police what 7 witnesses. 3 here in the 4 here are 3 don't hear it are you kidding. That's the building blocks for reasonable doubt but that the entire investigation really it's problematic young problematic. Our shows but it wasn't the first responders the firemen. There are good job is to attend to the vet. They're not investigators so whatever they think they heard percent there was no follow-up, but you know what should happen. She should have been interviewed on the spot but police off every one of those firefighters should have been interviewed by a police officer and quite frankly, every one of you should have been paid the court as opposed to a question is asked. And the answer is given and then it's filtered through the mind several days later, I guess to getting office. >> Let's take a look now that's that's outside the courthouse. That's on the courthouse steps. Does she look sound and act like a murder at the scene let's take a look. >> It appeared that I'm Jeremy was doing multiple for on the general Keith. >> You saw I don't get too graphic that you some love on her face, yes, I did some blood on his face is correct. So it wasn't her hair no, I didn't see anybody get us out not to do so, but certainly blood on her face from having engaged in some sort of CPR activity. Yes, not not success to she said. It looked like it, yes it was. >> The woman who have the blood around her mouth. >> What appeared to be most upset correct correct and she was really upset correct. Yes would you go so far as to say she was distraught. Yes just article. >> That something like that correct trust and she didn't say it in the tone of voice that I just said correct correct. She was screaming when she said that correct. You didn't notice that she was absolutely hysterical. Completely distraught. Yes. She appeared to be in shock. >> The descriptions are very consistent and pretty clear and I think consistent with what we're seeing and the dash cam videos I want to take a listen at Canton officer Stephen mullane here because this is like the next level of hysterical. >> What if anything were you advised by the dispatch in regard to this week. >> We're dispatch that or can grow control advise us she's making suicidal statements. >> And so based on that what if anything did you are or the other officers that are on scene. >> I don't call exactly who but someone to call mom is Roberts to have. Mister you come back to the scene and section 12 there. >> We section 12 her they said she was suicidal at the scene so what are your thoughts here wreck on the way she's acting at the same the way she's described is she acting like a murderer. >> Again not a I think it's one of those things that can be argued from both sides. But here comes in a crucial point with respect to opening statements people start to form their opinions. And once you have a little bit of a lean one way or the other you hear things in a certain way. I let me just tell you this though. >> I've covered a lot of trials and. Whenever the she used like shows no emotion when their spouse or loved one. >> Is dead, they get hammered. They get hammered on our air by guests they get hammered on social media and they get hammered by the jury and the prosecutor this is the opposite of that. >> It is it is and again I think it. >> Fulton fine with a drunk ♪ negligent outrage, it doesn't fold and fine with a purposeful act. A couple of points here. >> First of all that officers not qualified to make the call on a section 12. He's not a psychiatrist is not a psychologist they did wander through a suicide protocol in awe. And so what did they do that they lock up they isolated isolated from family friends. Any particular any lawyer that you might want to call it what you might want to call for advice. 2 they undermine it anything she might have said to anyone at that moment because if she was in a state upset shock that she was actually suicidal there's no credibility to come out of the mouth. Those statements I would suggest to be thrown out because they're not content. >> you're talking about that the alleged statements that I did it I did it I did it. Well right here that you might want whatever version you want to be a suicide and then it's not it's not I think there's a real problem that. >> Is she and is she. It does something by the way I get it I hit him. What's the context of that state. She should have been set down an interview on tape on the spot. She was not under arrest. They didn't have to advise River writes could you amplify on what you just said if they couldn't calmer down to a point we should get intelligent do it and give a statement they're we'd like you to come back to the station and talk to us that's done all the time. But the see the police pop so many in this case. I don't know how a jury could get beyond these mistakes and come to a conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt, let me ask another question about the area here what we have body cameras. I cover trials all over the country. Almost every got a body camera now why why do we have their own sick and Police Department the state Police are supposed to have body cams but when you look at the ancestral relationships in this case. I'm surprised even wrote reports and you know a police report and I'm sure you'll agree. Police officers do not write anything, good. That a defendant does our sets. Only the bad and my best cross examinations have been what's not in the police report. From a drunk driving case all the way up to Americans that in my mind there is simply no excuse for what was done in this case and how it was him and that take that this entire prosecution I feel actually feel bad for the prosecutor. Jerry seeing right now Rick do you think the jury as they're watching. >> This stuff listening to this testimony that you think they're forming the opinion that this is a murderer or is not a murder. >> This early stage is what looks like the vibe that they're getting I think we have a very difficult. >> Time in in filtering what we're just seeing out from everything that we've heard right if I try to you know a lot right and I try to put myself in a place of a juror and and they genuinely this is what I'm hearing for the first time I think they would they don't even know yet what the elements of murder on. That's true but I don't think they're sitting there thinking, yeah she did this in turn. >> Let's let's let's take a listen to this now so we had before all right, we have the scene we had before court let's take a look at what she said because you won't see her she's kind of hidden behind the computer screen. Someone was finally wearing a body camera. This is after she was arrested the second time and charged with murder again does she sound and act like someone who is a murder. >> And I say Joe Friday. This is par us. >> All right does that sound like a murder. >> Well, you know again if I put myself in a vacuum, I think I can go either way on that she's just been told she's indicted and I just been told she is indicted for murder is that is terrible now not not not oh my God what he already raging. She called to a definitive this is who no more these 2 individuals killed as she set. >> My own view is that what my client at that point I'm either strangled or myself okay. Yeah that was just you know. >> Appropriate I don't often lawyer was there with what boy was hit with the end of the rain meant. >> Acquired should be prepared for what's coming now in a murder case they generally him the indictment. The client gets that in advance they know that judgment. The amendment is not a time was sort of defense. I'm an arraignment. She's just being brought in process that that point let's do this we've got to take a break on a lot more to get to when we come back we're going to talk about. >> A lot of testimony today about John o'keefe the victim in all this wearing just one >> Shoes still on his feet you have the body in the middle of the road right on the line. And normally you would assume that if a vehicle struck the person he would glance off in one direction or the other and even my experiences of permit. We'll show you the tissues would fly. If you had a phone lucine his pocket that might bounce out of his pocket pending on how fast the vehicle was traveling when it struck him and depending on the significance or the the angle of the blow. >> I was covering the case of Steven Smith down South Carolina young man who was found dead in the road. Let's bring on experts and they were saying well it didn't look like he was hit by a car because his shoes were still law. And that was the first time I ever heard that that the of of people who are struck by cars, oftentimes their shoes will come off. Let's now talk about officer John o'keefe the allegation is is that he was struck by a car and we've heard a lot of testimony about what was and was not on his feet take a listen. >> You recall how Mister o'keefe was dressed when you first get over that previews wearing a hoodie. >> And chains and. Remember he had one shoe on but forget which show was. >> What year was that there was one she wants without point correct. >> As far as our disclose what if any observations make it. >> The notable observation that I made was that she was missing one shoe eyes, right shoe you're standing next to them. >> I guess and you are obviously looking around we noticed was that Prince yes, even notice a lack of footprints that's correct. So you're being observant area of the body. Yes and the area adjacent to the vote. Yes. You're looking for anything that might have a place, yes, anything of any evidentiary value cracked. Never located or otherwise and served. John of he's missing shoe. >> What also struck out in your mind is that you had only one shoe or correct correct from your memory. That was the left or the right you but it was one of those correct correct and you did not see another shoe or the matching shoe. >> In the area anywhere where he was wrecked cut into your memory you you never saw that other shoe correct correct. >> His clothes do matter, but it's on the list of priorities, not huge so by the time we figured out he was missing one of his shoes. We're already at the hospital that point would that be something. >> We have been removed by one of our viewers want to have firefighters >> if it would have been removed both of them would have been removed to assess that it wouldn't do much good to just remove one and leave it there on scene. >> So it's clear I mean it is super clear that genell keep only have one shoe on his feet. A couple of things come to mind and if you're in that jury box like probably waiting for the next shoe to drop where is the shoe number one and what doesn't because remember. Prosecutors say he struck by Karen reads SUV outside I and the defense is saying no something happened inside the House and his body was moved. So let's get some more perspective on this Rick dry still with me right. Is this a big deal. And what does it mean. So we talked earlier. >> On another evening about >> we we've heard so much on this from phone records that go to put a keep in the House. 2 was being taken down dogs et cetera. And I think smartly they scaled that back we didn't hear about that stuff in the openings we may still hear about it in evidence. But you scale it back to those things that are just kind if you're a futile and I think the shoes absolutely The there's no easy way out for the prosecution on that the man is missing is sure. Obviously you scour the the area looking for that shoe and you don't find that if you say you didn't sky where the area will there's just another building block for a horrible police investigation so where is the show and without having to say more than jurors minds are going to go to that house. >> The shoe is in the House what do you think she could be in the House, but look there's a lot more than just the shoot. What was the condition issue that they found. How many laces was was a tie the knot. He doesn't even know whether it's the right the left shoe what kind of a police investigation is that it's pathetic pathetic thing something else about the budget. When you're hit by a car. The county's track marks on the body. They should have grabbed the clones they should have examined the for track backs. They should have a few what part of the vehicle actually struck a tail light where are the wheels. If we get run over the going to have some evidence of that is there any grit plus and when you think of that nature that would the clothes on the body. He marks on the book on the on the clothing of audit have they even examine the claw we haven't heard it was not yet but they're going to say. Tiny fragments of the they have people snowball on that with the blowers looking for the staff. Again I go back to my original iPod I think the issue is that you could be in the House. Is that the natural place to go like the shoes. >> Never found is never produced is the most reasonable inference. The most logical place that it's in the House and it's certainly going to you know it's in the House of behind the House. What was taken maybe they drag him out. He's unconscious. He loses the show and yeah maybe they pick it up and threw it back in-house maybe they throw in the works who knows but they didn't well what anyone ever what we do now. This is a glaring hole in the police investigation, this house this seat has been planted that here. >> In the House there's a shoe missing. The Commonwealth is it going to have an alternative explanation, the mind. >> He said you have to say something I said I say not that you believe in on this and that snow plow all the way with the snowplow the most likely argument that they make at some point is it's a red hat. What was not was not wearing one shoe that that's what they it was out there probably a video of him with 2 shoes on and so all of these tidbits on likes Springs on the clothes. And at the end of the case, the defense it's going to tie all of that up in a cohesive AG and the defense is going to tell that jury you've heard this case, you know what the mistakes you know what the gaps on the other. This is reasonable doubt. I think the issue. >> It's bigger than the Google because the go-go's going to be experts and they've got an expert that works I think for the company that wrote the program so that even if that's a wash it's not really a win-win. >> Yeah, a shoe, the shoe show and the other thing that's can the real important is the apology. You know the medical examiner's in Massachusetts rep from state police. Right now the independent scientist which they should be we are going to get for years that the medical examiner's office should be completely independent it's on the flight scientists investigating deaths, not given police reports and get one side of the case and they conduct no investigation. One of my murder cases, the medical examiner said the guy died of a brain swelling. We had an open solid just examine the brain that was an outlet like what they took that case for murder to Manson was a 5, one half another one of the victories yeah. >> He's on a roll a great to have you dry and Rick Grundy of I appreciate your insight
