- [Chris] What's it like to be on camera and share about your experiences with OCD? - It's very scary.
(laughing) I'm like a little, it's
a little scary because... Yeah, I just don't know
how it's gonna come off. - [Chris] What do you think
is the most important thing for other people to
understand about Pure O? - I guess that it's really
hard for someone with Pure O any OCD, really, but like, especially when you're
having really like violent or sexual intrusive thoughts
that you don't want, it's really hard to
open up to other people. And so I think that if you were... If you're someone's friend who has Pure O or OCD and they try to open up to you, I would say that like the best thing to do would probably be to try
to not react very strongly. - [Chris] What's it like
to be in a relationship when you have OCD? (laughing) - It's yeah, it's pretty
triggering sometimes. I don't know. It's just like, it it's fun. I mean, it's normal, but
it just heightened anxiety. Sometimes. - [Chris] You had a big
smile on when I asked that, what were you thinking? - It's just a topic that
comes up a lot, you know. We talked about it a lot, but I don't know. I feel like it actually
doesn't feel like... I feel like it's more similar to like a normal relationship
like you might think because like every relationship has issues you have to resolve. And so it's like OCD is
just like one of the things that we like kind of talk about and I have to be more cognizant about. So, I think every relationship has balance where you have to like kind of figure out like what your partner needs and like what you need from your partner. And that's just been like
the thing that we talk about. You're just kind of
like solving like the... the problems that you guys have. Like you're kind of compromising on like what you need from them,
what they need from you. It just so happens that like the challenge might be like, OCD and like thought rumination, like for obsessions and compulsions. - I remember seeing like the
sharp end of a tape dispenser and I just imagined it like hurting me, imagined it cutting me. And I remember being like,
oh, I don't like that thought. Like, I really don't like that. And I tried to just like, forget about it. But then I just started noticing it. Like the next day. And like every time I started seeing any kinda sharp object. Like I saw scissors, imagine... I immediately had to, like.. I just imagined it harming me. And then I would see like a knife and I'd be like, oh, like I cringe because like, I imagined
the knife doing the same thing to me. And it was all like, I
always just like would try to shake the thought away, but then it just kind
of continued, for yeah probably six months or so until it kind of died down and then came back a little bit later. - You really can never tell what's going on in
someone's mind, can you? - No, I can't. - Are you ever just like super... You're presenting yourself
as super composed, maybe at a work event, a
family party, whatever. And internally you're
having these obsessions. - Oh yeah. All the time, yeah. And people will try to like, They'll be like, "Hey, what
are you thinking about?" And I'm like.
- Oh gosh. - Uh nothing. Like, I don't even know
what I'm thinking about. You know? I'm like, I... I mean recently I've been
trying to be more open about being, like I'm having
an intrusive thought, you know. And maybe they'll ask me what it is and I'll probably, usually not tell them. I've had really different themes over the course of my life. And you know, the kind of
annoying thing about OCD is that it'll just, once
you get over one theme, it's just kind of like
looking for the other thing to come up. And for me it's just, I've probably experienced
four or five main themes in my life. If it was really just that one obsession, maybe I would've figured it out and like that wouldn't have been it again. But then it just the fact
that it kind of like went onto other different themes. - [Chris] What are your
current obsessions? - Currently, my obsessions have been and I feel like I'm on the
tail end of it, so that's nice. But they've been mainly related
to sexual orientation OCD and relationship OCD. It just kind of came out of nowhere again. It's just, that's part when it partly when I can kind of recognize
it's an OCD episode, I guess. Is when literally everything
was fine before that. And all of a sudden I
had an intrusive thought and that intrusive thought
caused all the rumination. - [Chris] What is a typical way that relationship OCD
manifests in your relationship? - Yeah. I mean, it usually manifests with like the kind of moral obsessions. With, you know, does Evan say something that I find politically incorrect or harmful to others, to a certain group. And then I start to
focus on whether or not what he said was moral, whether that means I'm moral, whether that means he's a bad person, whether that means I'm a bad person. And then whether that means
that this relationship is not good for me. So it can show up like that. And then also with
sexual orientation OCD... It can show up where, you know. I notice like we're
watching like a reality show or something and I'm like trying to watch this reality show, but then all I can see is
like, "That lady is pretty." and I'm like, oh, like, is she pretty, or does, does that mean
I wanna like kiss her? So then my mind is like... Oh, I need to imagine myself
kissing her or whatever. Or something like that to check, to make sure that
like, I still wanna be with him. - [Chris] That's the compulsion. - That would be a compulsion. Yeah. The compulsion is the checking. So then I'd be like, oh, now I feel... Then I feel sort of feeling guilty because we're sitting next to each other and I'm watching this show and I'm supposed to just be
like, watching this show. Then I start feeling guilty. So then I'll try to check my attraction to the man on the show and then it'll be like, "Oh,
this is also guilt inducing." Because now I'm aware that
I'm doing compulsions. So that is one I first
to feel guilty about That I'm self-aware
about, but still doing it. And then I start to feel guilty that I'm doing this
compulsion next to him. And then eventually I'll
have to like imagine myself in the same scenario as the other two with him to balance it all out. So it's very exhausting. A lot like mental gymnastics. I'm just trying to watch the show, but like I can't help but be
like, "That woman's pretty." Does that mean that I wanna date her? Does that mean I wanna date women? Does that mean that my
relationship is wrong? Like does that mean I shouldn't... I'm actually ruining my relationship. Does that mean that I'm
like hurting my boyfriend? If you think about like someone who is concerned about
like their oven, right? Like their oven being on and off or on or like whatever. Then maybe they'll leave their apartment and they'll come back to their apartment, like 10 times to check if the oven's off. So that's like a physical
checking compulsion, but then like the mental
check, it's still checking, but you're just checking inside your head and it's a different form of checking. So yeah, in this case it
would be checking attractions. Pure O just means that the
compulsions are not very visible. They're not really physical. They don't really involve, you know, doing certain like I like for example, like tapping or or maybe
flicking lights on and off. Has to more so do with
like internal rituals. - We talked about your
obsession over sharp objects. What was your check
there? Your compulsion? - My compulsion was usually trying to replace the sharp object in my head with like something
soft or something fluffy so that it would neutralize the idea of like the violent thing happening or the harmful thing happening. Like something fluffy and soft
would probably not hurt me. So then I would try to like neutralize it. - So if you saw something
sharp in your apartment, you would then think of a marshmallow. - Yeah. Well I would... Well first I would probably
see that like the sharp thing. And then I would imagine... Then I would have the intrusive thought about the sharp thing hurting me. But then immediately after that I would be like, no, no, no. I don't wanna have this thought. Let me imagine maybe
a marshmallow instead. - Yeah. But you told me off camera, that's not really healthy. The compulsion of thinking
about the marshmallow. - No, it's not. Any compulsion, All compulsions do is they relieve anxiety temporarily. But they, it never, it never lasts like the relief does not last and that it perpetuates the cycle of kind of like the obsession because it kind of reinforces the fact that you can't handle anxiety and you can't handle uncertainty. So it really is just like a bandaid, yeah. - Sometimes the best thing to do is just to sit in the uncertainty? - Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Just sit in the uncertainty and maybe accept that like, yeah. You know, you thought the thought, so it is a possibility, but like it's also likely
that it's not true. So with like sexual orientation of OCD, for example, you know. It's like trying to check like
every single person you see, like either you're checking like, are you attracted to them or you're checking, like,
"Would you kiss them?" And then like, when it goes hand in hand
with relationship OCD, then you start to think like, am I like... You're checking to see
if you're more attracted to that person than you
are to your partner? Or like you're checking
in relationship OCD to see like, "Are you really interested in what your partner's saying right now?" Just like this hyper awareness of like, whether or not you're like attracted to, or in love with your
partner, like the right way. - [Chris] Did any of her
obsessions ever bother you? - Just the one about like her sexuality, because it had like very strong... obviously it had really
strong implications for anyone in a relationship. And it just felt so close to like what a, like
somebody who didn't have OCD might think like... Would I like perceive somebody who's like maybe questioning
like, "Am I bisexual?" "Am I gay?" Like, like having those
questions was like, is that kind of what they
would go through anyways? And so I was like, and I'm like, it's okay if you are like
nothing against that, it's just like, "Are we supposed to be in
this relationship or not?" - You know, people question
their sexuality all the time, but it's kind of like
if you kind of remove that element of, "People
question their sexuality all the time," and you kind of see, like this
person's having an obsession or like a sexual intrusive thought and they're questioning
what it means about them. They're having distress over it. And they're trying to relieve
the anxiety either internally or like physically by like dating around or something. Like, those are all very kind of like by the book, OCD things, you know. Ego-dysotonic thought, like distress and then compulsion to
get rid of the distress. So it's not to say that
you still might actually... You could very well be
the sexual orientation that like you're fearing
that you are or whatever. But part of it is like learning
to accept that uncertainty and just being like, you know, "Maybe I could be gay, but maybe I'm not." And I might not know now or
ever and like that's okay. And it could happen to
people who are gay as well and who are obsessing about whether or not they're straight. So then they might say to themselves like, "Maybe I'm straight, but maybe I'm not." But yeah, that theme has come up pretty... It's come up now in my life because I think I might
have mentioned this, but like OCD hangs on to things
that you care about a lot. And you know, right now
I'm in a relationship that I care about a lot. I'm very focused on being
like a good open minded person and to even have the theme
of sexual orientation OCD makes me feel sometimes like I'm being homophobic or I'm being a bigot and kind of ties back into like morality. And so then I start to
judge my own thoughts for even having those thoughts. So, but again, it's like... I don't want to have any of those thoughts because I would rather
just like accept myself and accept everyone. And like none of this actually matters. I'm very big on morality, which is a kind of another
like subset of OCD, moral scrupulosity. I think it's honestly
the kind of foundation of all of my obsessions is like, I feel very strongly that like the thoughts are immoral. And they're completely against
what I actually wanna do. So usually the other ones are
like sexual intrusive thoughts and you know, I'll, I'll be very... I feel very guilty and ashamed about it because I'll feel like
it's not consensual. Like I shouldn't be like imagining
this scenario in my head. So usually yeah, they have to do with kind
of like societal stigmas or any kind of like immorality. - If I'm watching a movie
and I see Ryan Gosling or something, and I think,
"That's a handsome guy." I can just let that go. - Yeah. - You don't have the ability just to not wonder about your orientation. - Yeah. I mean, lately I've
been, I've been better at it. But yeah, when I'm in the deep of it, like everyone, it could be like, I mean, it, it could be
like a 60 year old woman that I've never seen before
walking on the street and I'll just be like, yeah. I'll have to something
in my head will be like, I have to check this. I have to check this
attraction or something. But yeah. - That's the OCD you're obsessed over your orientation. - Yeah. - And you're the
compulsion is just checking to see what your orientation is. - Yeah. - Can it be hard to reach out
for help when you have Pure O - Oh yeah. For sure. - [Chris] Why? - Cause you just don't want
people to like alienate you. You don't want people
to misunderstand you. You don't wanna lose friends. You don't wanna lose your job. You don't wanna, like... You don't want anyone to
misinterpret what you're saying. And usually they do. And like that's okay. It's okay. It's just more like, you know, I think that if someone
is even coming to you to tell you about this in the first place, like you should try really hard
to be compassionate about it and not necessarily jump to conclusions about whether or not
their obsessions are real. But I just think that that's unfortunately how that goes sometimes. It's like someone will
confide in someone else and then the person will
take their word for it. And then that will just
reinforce the obsession because then the person with OCD is like, "Oh my God, like I was going
to you to confide in you. And now you actually believe me." And now this is making it way worse. - [Chris] What thoughts do
you have when Erica tells you that she's having obsessions
about her sexual identity? - Yeah, like again at first
I was like, it's like... "Oh, what does this really mean? Like, you know, do what
we need to like like do something like change
our relationship or anything like that?" - When I've told people
about sexual orientation OCD, the first thing they usually say is, "Well, why don't you just
go date a bunch of women? You know, why don't you
just go experiment?" And it's very distressing to hear because if someone is having harm CD, like, would you go say, like, "Why don't you just go, like
hurt a bunch of people?" Like, that's not, you're not gonna say that to that person, right? You're gonna be concerned about it. But with this one, it's
just a little bit... it's taken a little bit less seriously. - Now it's more like, I
kind of, I kind of get it. Like I get that. She's more just like worried
about the implications it has. So for her, I just try to
like be there and support her. I can't really like, you know, go inside and like take those
thoughts out of her brain. So again, I kind of just try to like, be like supportive and like
make sure she's taken care of herself and realize like I'm here. And even if she's like... Even the worst case of
like going down that like, Because, like you know,
anything is possible and you kind of talked about how you have to be open with the uncertainty. Like the worst case is like,
oh, it comes true or whatever. And like that's not actually
like the end of the world, you know? Like it's okay, you're a person. Like I'm a person we
have like our own things we're all figuring out. So I'm just here, like no matter what she does, like what she decides or
whatever, like it's okay. - [Chris] Well, how can
people tell a difference between a person who is just
questioning their sexuality compared to somebody who's having that obsession
of their sexuality? - I think, well, one, I just
wanna be clear that like, you know, it is possible. Like if you are... I'm sorry should I... - [Chris] Oh, I'm sure she'll
get settled in one second. - Okay
- [Chris] Yeah, she's fine. Don't worry about it. - I think it is possible honestly, to be the sexual orientation that you're obsessing about. Like if you're obsessing about whether or not you're straight, then maybe you are straight. And like, if you're
obsessing about whether or not you're gay, then,
like maybe you are gay. But like the point of it is to... to accept that you don't know and to just live your life
the way that you want to. And then accept that you
might never figure it out. But if you're really
gonna think about like, "How can you tell the difference?" then the person is distressed. They don't want the thoughts and they're performing compulsions like thought neutralizing,
checking, thought suppression. It's not a very, very clearly
defined line sometimes. I think it's more so just trying to trust that person's instincts honestly. Like, because a lot of the
time I think people associate, especially if you're straight, that like if you're
questioning your sexuality, that might mean that you're just like... you're afraid of the shame of being gay or maybe that maybe you're obsessing about whether or not you're
gay because you're homophobic. But that's just not the
case most of the time. And that's actually become
like a little sub obsession I've had is like, "Oh my
God, I'm having these like, these obsessions about
my sexual orientation. Does that mean I'm homophobic?" So then it goes back to like, you know... moral scrupulosity where I'm like, kind of like now I'm
really observing my OCD from a very far away
viewpoint where I'm like, "Well now you're being homophobic." So then, then it's like placing
a judgment on my thoughts. - [Chris] What does it feel
like when you're spiraling? - It honestly, like, I visualize
like a dropping like... - Oh, you talked about under
the door thing you mentioned. - Yeah, I like, kind of
sometimes visualize like, I'm going down this like hallway and there's a bunch of doors and the kind of like, to compare that to like an obsession. It's like, I wanna open the
door to see what's inside, but once I step inside, there's no floor. It's just a drop. And I just like fall down that drop. And that's the spiraling
that like, I can't... There's no way back up or like down, like there's no... It's just like floating. It's just falling and then floating. And then you're just
there for however long. So it feels like sometimes it feels endless and kind of hopeless. - [Chris] From your perspective,
how does OCD impact Erica? - I think it can like take her out of the present moment a lot. And so instead of being
there with like her friends or with me, or just like doing something she enjoys she's instead
thinking about something that's just like totally
taking her out of the moment and like generally making her a lot more like anxious inside and kind of like taking
some joy out the world because she's actually
really, really fun person. So I think it's kind of like, it takes her a little
bit out of the, yeah. Just like kind of removes
her from reality a little bit - When I'm zoning out, I might be zoning out because I'm trying to fix something in my head. I'm probably zoning out
because I had a thought that I didn't want and I'm
trying to reregulate that and get out of it. I feel usually guilty for spiraling or for bringing something up. And like, I start to feel very, like... I feel guilty for even telling
him what my thoughts are. Like, for example, with like, you know, the sexual orientation obsessions or like the sexual intrusive
thoughts, you know. A lot of those thoughts. I don't want them, But then I don't want to make him feel bad by telling him about them because I don't want him to feel insecure in our relationship. But it's also like, It's very much like a balance because I want him to know
what's going on in my head and why I'm so anxious. But I don't want him to feel like it really means something. - [Chris] What do you do if
you notice Erica's symptomatic? - I try to like pull
her out of a little bit, like start talking to her and like, and try to just get
her back in the moment. Maybe I like also brought up, like maybe we can meditate
together or something like that. And overall, I'm not sure, like sometimes it's effective
sometimes it's not effective. I think a lot of times it's like, Erica's the only one to take
Erica out of like that state and like connect back with like, the world going on around her. - Sometimes we'll just be
having a normal conversation and then something he'll
say will like trigger me. And then it's like, we can't even get past that point of the conversation anymore because I start to, like,
I start to ruminate. I start to go down this rabbit
hole and start to be like, "What did you actually mean by that?" Like what does it mean about me if I accept the fact that you said that? What does it mean about our relationships? So it kind of just like, We'll create a lot of
like stagnancy sometimes. You can kind of like start
to see the OCD patterns when you start to see like,
"Oh, I'm Googling a lot." Like, I can't even form
my own opinion about this. I'm constantly searching for like reassurance from other people. Like either like either friends or like on Google, like, "Is it okay if he did this? How should I feel about this?" It's like, I can't even
like trust my own self about how I feel about something. Because I'm so concerned
about also the morality, like behind it. - She has so much good
so then to see the OCD taking her out of that is like what... Is kind of like sad sometimes. Because I think she has so
much to bring to the world. - [Chris] Are there any
strategies you learned to be a better partner? - For sure. For sure. I think it's made me think a
lot about how I, you know... what words I choose to say and just general like my demeanor going into conversation, like what is my actual goal? Because like, sometimes
there's like, you know, you want to be, maybe if
you're having an argument, you can either choose
like you wanna be right or you can choose if you want
to like understand the person and like connect with them. And sometimes it gets
stuck in like that logical, "I want to be right, like
I wanna win the argument." Or I wanna like help
someone logic through. Like, I want to help
her like logic through what's going through it. But it's usually not a good strategy because there's kind of always, especially with like something like OCD as she's told me, like there's a way to
like always like flip it. Like you flipped it on its head. And so it's really more
important to just kind of like be there and be like, "I'm here to like try and
help you like be present and like have joy." - Sometimes it's like
you get so in your head that you're like, you know, maybe I should just break up with them because I want to be... I don't wanna deal with
this anxiety anymore. It's not even like I
wanna break up with them because I don't like, I don't want this relationship anymore. It's like, I just like, I don't want this anxiety anymore. There's so much anxiety
from this relationship. That's just because of my
internalized kind of rituals. So it's kind of exhausting sometimes. But like, you know, I do feel
lucky that I have a partner who's very, who's understanding even if he doesn't understand everything. Thanks for being in a
relationship with me. Yeah.
(laughing) I feel like I'm just like yeah, really lucky to have someone like him because I just appreciate
like all the times that you know, you've been supportive and tried to not internalize
like my obsessions. Because I feel like if I was
in a relationship with myself, I'd be stressing out all the time about why she would
even have an obsession. So that's, that's a good
thing I'm not, but yeah. So I'm, I'm happy that like
you are the way you are. Yeah.
- Thank you. - I'll say something like,
"I don't deserve you." And then he'll be like,
"You deserve at least me." And I'm like, okay cool. Which is isn't helpful, you know? And it kind of reinforces
the fact that like, yeah. I'm really mean to myself sometimes when I have these like intrusive thoughts and I'm judging myself
so hard for having them. I'm like shaming myself. I'm just yelling at myself. And really being able
to like take a step back and recognize like when I'm in the middle of like criticizing myself
has been really helpful and just trying to stop
that self-criticism so yeah. He's been very... I would say integral in kind of like me getting back on my feet. - I know she's going through all that. But then at the same time, she's also just like the
most like compassionate, like fun person to be around. And like one, like, I dunno. I feel super lucky to have met her. So to me it's like there's that part where
she gets in the rumination. But then it's like also the rest of the time are together is like also, it's not like it's always like, like about to spiral. Like a lot of, most of the moments are like really good moments. And even the spiral moments, it's a lot of times like us
like figuring each other out. So I don't know. That's what I would say it's like. - [Chris] Are you in therapy now? - Yeah. - [Chris] Why did you first seek therapy? - Well, I first sought
therapy six years ago because I was just, I just
felt like I was going crazy. I was just crying all the time. And I like, couldn't
talk to anyone about it. Like when I did talk to
someone about it, they... Their eyes were widen and they'd be like, "Oh, maybe you should go
see someone about it." So I was like, " I will
go see someone about it." But it took me, I think my therapist now is my like sixth therapist for someone to actually
understand OCD and validate it. Because part of it is like another kind
of like meta-obsession that a lot of people at OCD have is that they don't actually have OCD. You know like, even though
you're diagnosed with it, you're like, "You could be wrong. Like the therapist could be wrong." And like maybe maybe you really are just like everything horrible
you thought you were, you know? So I think that was a little
bit like of a fear I had. But I really just like realized that I just go through these cycles of like being really anxious. And then the obsession dies
down after a few months, but then it just always comes back. - Before we end this interview. Is there anything else you'd like to say? - Yeah. I mentioned exposure and response prevention therapy. I just wanted to mention
what it kind of looks like for when have more like
internal mental compulsions. So when you have like sexual
orientation OCD, for example, an exposure might be
like writing a script. So it might be like writing out, like all the things that you're
worried about will happen. Like either to your relationship or like whatever your fear, your core fear is that has
to do with that obsession. And then kind of like
just reading through it or reading it out loud and then allowing yourself to like sit in that anxiety about
it possibly being true and not performing the compulsion of either like ruminating about it or trying to replace that
scenario you just wrote out in your head with like a
more positive scenario. It really took a few months of therapy for me to realize how
hard I judged my thoughts. I just constantly would... I don't know if this is the correct term. It was like self-flagellating or whatever, but like internally. Where I would have this thought
and I'm like, "Oh my God, like you're such a horrible person. Why would you have this
thought, like this is so wrong." Like this is just... And it would just send me into
like a spiral again, like... So, I've really learned to
kind of take a step back and observe my thoughts from
a more neutral standpoint instead of just placing
a value judgment on them.
This was helpful. Thank you.
Thank you very much for sharing this.
Some parts were like this is me in therapy!!
I saw this video and I feel like I relate to her so much and I’m wondering it maybe I have pure O. My therapist thought I might have OCD and I ended up doing a treatment program for OCD but then they said that they didn’t think I had it and that I just had severe depression. But then one girl told me she has pure O and wondered if maybe I have it too. So when I saw this video I was like wait… that’s like all the same stuff I go through. Could I have pure O? I don’t know to determine that