Keep Calm & Get What You Want with FBI Hostage Negotiator Chris Voss | Wide Open with Tony Gonzalez

[Music] hey guys what's up welcome back to another episode of wide open the podcast I am your host Tony Gonzalez and today's guests I had met you before this Chris vos hostage negotiator writer of the book never split the difference negotiate as if your life depends on it a buddy of mine up in San Francisco he's a big tech guy and he calls me up one day and he knows I like to read and he's like hey I got this book man but you can't tell anybody about this book that's kind of a secret weapon it's kind of secret on the down low and you know it'll help you with your relationships it'll help you with business and he mentioned your book and I I got it went out got the book read it amazing book thanks but I think it might be too good Chris because people are saying you don't want to spread this book around because you don't want people knowing the tactics that come in there when it comes to negotiations which it's it's a secret weapon but everybody's know about it I want to talk about you as we always do on wide open I believe everybody's story on how they came up kind of tells why they are who they are now in life and we were talking about before you the show started that you're from Iowa small town small town Iowa you have four brothers and sisters three sisters four of us in total uh-huh four of us in total one older two younger sisters and growing up kind of a big that's a big family I mean yeah so negotiation were you always a good negotiator is this something that that you learned from childhood no I don't think so I think I think what I learned that's helped in a negotiation was really figured out gotta figure stuff out like my father was an entrepreneur and he just like look figured out uh-huh which was his attitude for his own business you know a small business guy you got a problem you got to figure out how to solve it you got to do it so we'll figure it out attitude you know can-do attitude and then at some point in time I really like being proactive you know getting out in front of problems an awful lot of the stuff in the book is really about how do you get in front of emotional problems before they happen which kind of a crazy idea but it's very proactive so you know I think I was open to learning working hard and being proactive did you go to school for this type of stuff I mean what was what were you into as a kid yeah you know I wanted to be a cop I decided I wanted to be in law enforcement at about age 16 a buddy of mine and I both went saw the same movie at the same time the super cops about a couple of new york city cops who were wildly creative I didn't realize it at the time but they were really good at disregarding what management wanted them to do and and community loved them they did a lot of good a lot a lot of good they were creative and the community loved them and that kind of blew me away both of us ended up becoming cops the other guy he wasn't really built for cuz they you know it's a it can be harsh uh-huh you know you see some more stuff and if you're not if you're not built to withstand that and you know it's not for you but that's that's what sent me in the direction of law enforcement and did you go to law enforcement right when you got out of out of school graduated college I was State University got a business degree because while I was in school I realized I might change my mind so I figured get a degree that's flexible but you know I stayed on to staying on the track to become a police officer and then I think you know business degree every everything's got to run business like even in the government you got to understand business concepts so I think that you know that helped me helped me in my whole life uh-huh so when you decided to become a cop did whose was there somebody influential in your life that kind of a mentor that you could bounce ideas off help you through this or was it yeah figure it out yeah you know I just I just like the idea of being really creative and doing something that you know may sound like a cliche but it was I was doing good I wanted to I wanted to do good uh-huh I wanna have a good time at the same time No so nobody was helping you right man it wasn't there wasn't law enforcement influences it oh I love it yeah look that's the thing about this show that I love because people are always like you got to get a mentor you got to get somebody that you look up to and and it's not like that for everybody I mean you still can have a successful life if you don't have anybody that lets out there just you don't really need to be held by the hand okay here's my opinion on the mentor hack because I get I get the mentor question a lot you know so there's a phrase and the point is to get unofficial Mentors mmm-hmm so there's a phrase out there that I really like never take advice from anybody that you wouldn't trade places with for I got introduced to an FBI agent in Kansas City I said I want to be an FBI agent while I was a cop there I what should I do and he gave me some advice now what happens when you take advice from somebody like that they become your own official mentors and they look out for you mm-hmm and they're usually in a position to look out for this guy was an agent Kansas City and he says all right so I'm gonna tell you what you should do and I'm usually on the interview panels but because I've given you advice I'm probably not going to be on your panel and he laid out some stuff some real basic stuff to me something is stupid I was so into being a cop at the time I wasn't reading newspapers all I wanted to do was fight crime uh-huh you know and I and I was thoroughly dedicated to it but in the process I'm not reading the paper he says you know we're gonna want you to be up on current events he says you read the paper and I'm like no he said well you come into the panel we're gonna ask if you're not reading the paper we're gonna think you're not up on current events he says it turns out the guys on my panel and he's there to hold me accountable did I listen to what he said did I do it or was that I just did I blow his advice I've been reading the paper those people are almost always gonna be in a position to check to see whether or not you followed the advice the same way I became a hostage negotiator I went to the person in charge what do I do I did it the cool thing about taking that advice nobody ever takes that advice unless you're successful you you know if you're asking about mentors you probably had mentors and I'll bet money you listen to him yeah yeah that's the hard part and you did what they told you to do when I went back to the woman that actually was critical and me become a hostage negotiator I put the store in the book I could tell the story without putting her name and I had to ever permission using her name I said I said Amy I'm putting this in whether you like it or not good you did something really awesome for me I just need to put your name in because I like to give credit and she said I told a thousand people to do what I told you to do and of those thousand two of them did it yeah so long story take advice from people you should trade places with or you would and do it yeah you know actually do it these guys has read the paper read the friggin paper yeah because then if I do that interview and I haven't read the paper he writes me off I get the lowest scores I could have gotten yeah but since I had I was actually embarrassed at the scores that I got on the interview panel so when that happens though you talk about listening I think that is HUGE because I believe that the recipe for success it's it's all around us really yeah I mean you can go to a book like I like to read books and that's where I get a lot of my mentorship but I also - I'll talk to someone like you like during these interviews that I'm doing here each each week I get to talk to somebody who's done extraordinary things I think it's a kind of a waste of time if I'm gonna sit here and actually not apply what what somebody's telling me especially if they've been there so I love that advice but you you're a cop first three years three years and then you say hey it's time to level up and I want to go be an FBI agent now and exactly something falling out of the sky all right so my father pays for college degree mm-hmm and I will get a job that requires a high school diploma now that ain't a bad job being a police officer is a great job but if I sent my kid to college and then he didn't use that degree I want my money back [Laughter] so he finally you reconcile himself to the fact that I'm gonna stay in law enforcement he's got he's got a guy you know as a Secret Service agent at this point in time I know I know I don't know one law enforcement federal law enforcement agency from another you know they call it the federal alphabet no DEA from FBI from CIA from nothing yeah so I talked to Secret Service guy cuz my dad thinks all right so you know use your college degree get eachother requires one and Secret Service guy says I traveled all over the world with Secret Service now at that point in time I think you know I grew up in Iowa I think I'd probably seen Canada from a distance I mean traveling all over the world that somebody's gonna pay my bills to travel all over the world I'll do that yeah Secret Service was not hiring the FBI had me be putting on a big push I thought you know I don't know what difference does it make and I put in the application for the bureau and I got in yeah so as you know again the path right yeah you don't know you don't know what the past can occur I know yeah that's kind of the fun about it too at least like I like that do you set your you set your goals but at the same time it you never know what's could what's gonna happen yeah right I know you don't want to be a male model and a football player [Laughter] kid okay growing up in Long Beach there [Music] so yeah so now you're in the FBI and off of that though hostage negotiation how did how did that come about cuz you go on the FBI and I don't know it from Mattamy they're FBI I thought it was you know from what I see in the movies but right there's a whole section of hostage negotiation well you know there's there's a number sections and actually I was originally I was on a SWAT team okay I had I wanted to be SWAT but one thing I thought about for most of my life was was swatting you know I'm kind of a medium sized do it right you know which actually it's a really bad size because little guys want to kick your ass and a big guys figure that you've got a fight because you're medium-sized so you got to take everybody it's a bad size so I studied marks I started a study martial arts in college I ended up ripping up my knee have the heaven II put back together get on a SWAT team every field Division has a SWAT team and a negotiation team okay and they do it as an additional duty and all the field divisions and then there's always a people that run everything out of Quantico you know the mystical Quantico that's in all the TV shows Mystikal Quantico Quantico Virginia oh just that you know it's I refer to this it's it's actually it's it's one of the special places on a planet because people should go there and change their lives like you you walk you walk in the door just another person on the street you go through the Academy come out an FBI agent that's that's a that's a transformation so um I'm on I'm on a SWAT team in Pittsburgh I get transferred to New York I decide the the bureau's terrorist SWAT team is a hostage rescue team they're based out of Quantico they're Tier one national asset counterterrorism they the equivalent of the seals which would make the seals mad to hear that but it's in point of fact it's the truth I try out for HRT I really enjoy my name I go to a doctor in New York to get it worked on he puts Humpty Dumpty back together again mm-hmm but as you know you can only hurt joints so many times and so I decided all right so I don't know how many more knee surgeries I got in me but um it's like a cat you're gonna run out of lives yeah I decide to become a hostage negotiator because they respond with the SWAT teams uh-huh I could its talking I could talk to people how hard could it be I mean I literally remember thinking to myself I could talk to terrorists how hard could that be and initially I get rejected by the woman I was telling you about and she gives me advice I follow it I get on the team I will tell me about your your first real negotiation where they're like I Chris you're up today and so how do you get picked and what was your first experience like it it's a straight initiative I'm sitting in the New York office of the FBI it's in and buddy mine comes I'm getting ready to do an interview and it's got Charlie beaudoin good friend of this day this is a bank robber in Brooklyn with hostages let's go initiative now we're not called to go we go and and at the time actually I'm nursing a bad right knee Charlie's nursing a bad left knee we drive up we get to closer on the inner perimeter bail out of the car we're low crawling to the command post you know between the two of us were like a three-legged race we get you know four legs but only till morning and we get in there FBI NYPD puts the teams together and you know I'm fresh off my training I got a great team leader the PD commander says all right we're gonna integrate the teams because a bank robbery it's gonna be FBI and NYPD and we all knew each other we've been training together and the lieutenant points to one of the PD guys this is you're gonna be first off any points to me says you're gonna be the coach we throw a team up around the guys we start talking to bad guys and about five hours in they decided to make a change and and the commander pulls the first negotiate and he points the finger me says you're up this is what I want you to do hmm and I feel how'd that feel like I was ready you you you rise to your level of preparation you don't you don't rise he actually you know rise the occasion you fall to your level of preparation okay and I was prepped I had the advice that I'd been given to get on the negotiation team was to go volunteer on a suicide hotline I'd steady been volunteering on a suicide hotline for about two years I'd been to the training when I went to the training and they're playing tapes of actual negotiations I remember thinking to myself I've been doing this for a year that just hasn't been a SWAT team outside so I was prepped I'd played in pre-season I did my practice I tended you know you want to perform in a championship you you do all the little things to get ready uh-huh so I was prepped they handed me the phone you know I leaned into my process I had a I had a I had a bank robber out about 90 minutes later you had about 90 minutes later yeah and during what was going on though were you thinking about the outcome were you thinking okay what if I fail this is my first time what was what was that are like emotionally or were you even thinking at all or is it just not when you when well when you're ready for the process I mean you you you just lean into the process yeah and and one of the key things when we're teaching people in negotiation or anything else you got to let go of the outcome okay you just just gotta let go I mean it's like walking a tightrope if somebody walk on a tightrope is really focused on the end instead of the next step yeah they're gonna fall off the tightrope yeah are you gonna just focus on the next step and so I'm just I just leaned in I just you know I I did what I was told you know again I'm coachable you got to be coachable and then then it's it's it's a dynamic process with basic guidance and you know I mean even on I got clips of it I get clips from that negotiation on our YouTube channel because it's videotaped it's whose tape recorded it's our negotiations all tape recorded they should be every hostage negotiation should be it's great evidence uh-huh you know if some guy wants a claim you know whatever kind of nonsense and actually because we take that we convicted one of the bank robbers strictly on a spontaneous admission that I got from one of the bank robbers on the phone and this bank robber as it turned out was did the exact same stuff the great CEOs do they come to the table if a really influential person in a negotiation comes to the table and they act like they have no they will act like they have no decision-making authority like if you're negotiating with somebody and go I don't know you know I got a board of directors you know I got at least people I'm answerable to I'd love to give you commitment yeah but all these people I mean I gotta I gotta go back to my team I gotta think what they say you're talking to the man or the woman at that point in time and this bank robber came on the phone and he's like you know he's other guys they're dangerous I don't know what they're gonna do I mean I I don't even want them to let him know that I'm talking to you on the phone I got a whisper - oh here comes one of them now and he put us on old he was the organizer uh-huh and the only way he can talk to us and not get backed into a corner is to claim that everybody else got the power which is what a great you know the most influential person on the other side's team if they come to the table and they have any brains at all they're gonna act helpless you'd somebody comes to the table and he's like yeah this is what I want you know they're in love with singular pronouns yeah they got nothing they are helpless on their side it's the only time to get to talk about what they want is when they're talking to you when they go back to their team their team goes shut up do what you told and they get they got no influence so if somebody acts really powerful at the table that person is only a spokesperson and and this bank robber did the same thing he's like hey these guys are dangerous you know I'm scared what they're gonna do you know I'd let somebody go but they're gonna get mad all this nonsense he was he was in complete control how many have you done including my number is high all right so I've been you know ballpark in about 150 150 new hostage negotiation including kidnappings that numbers probably low you doing that many negotiations I bet you've seen some some crazy [ __ ] going down what's the like what frustrates you when you know you're in for a good one well it's like it there's got to be negotiations where you're like this guy or girls she's not that smart he's gonna be I got a feeling it's gonna be an easy game I guess the way I would say like we're not playing against a very good team today so well yeah or you're not playing against a good team I mean most of the time people on the other side of the table internationally kidnapping I mean that's their business that's their job I Denzel Washington movie man on fire yeah Denzel Washington negotiates with the voice in in Mexico yeah and that was that guy's job you know it's a fictional depiction but the voices job was to negotiate kidnappings and wherever there's a kidnapping industry they divide up the responsibilities and there's people specialize in negotiations you know I'm working kidnappings in Baghdad yeah and they say hey you know this scanty Molly you know and he's got the same cell phone it keeps coming up and different kidnappings I'm like yeah they go there's more than one Olly right no no no it's his job he negotiates kidnappings yeah you know people go out and they take they take hostages they finally go she ate a negotiated broker's a deal form I mean that's it's a business yeah so when you go into these negotiations by the way uh-huh you think Denzel Washington is ever gonna see this yeah I hope so all right you know it he keeps playing me in movies he doesn't call it is a right I don't get a thank-you note you know what was the man on fire inside man inside miss Spike Lee great movie and then actually when he did the siege with Bruce Willis he came to the New York office and he's a negotiator in the movie the siege and I get introduced to him by accident as we're walking around of course upper management knows that if he finds out I'm running the negotiation team that he's gonna want to stop talking to them he's gonna want to spend time with me so they you know they got him away from me it's good it's okay ridiculously gracious guy though when he came to the New York office of the FBI I mean very friendly everybody that walked up to him and asked for an autograph he signed I mean ridiculously gracious or whatever the other movie uh with Kevin Spacey and Ola the negotiator same with Kevin Spacey look at that stuff I always look at football movies like any given Sunday and I'm like half of it I'm like that's crap it's real but most of it is not is that how it is big they did they did a lot right of them okay I mean they you know they got it they got a you know they got officialize it you know for dramatis eyes it for for Hollywood I would say close to 70 70 75 percent right in that movie a couple of key moments negotiators are never in charge you know there's a there's a scene in that movie with Kevin Spacey says from now on all decisions go through me yeah no negotiator would ever say that oh that's the drum hey there's a good line so when you're negotiating though are you telling the the bad guys are you telling them your name do you get personal with them depends upon like a domestic siege the stuff in in the negotiator yeah I'm gonna give my name absolutely I mean I'm saying hi it's Chris do you get afraid though that maybe after this whole thing is over that there come back and look you up if something happens they go to jail or if you you know if you make them a promise that that ends up not being fall through on that your family or whatever it is nothing doesn't make that promise huh you never make that promise ever ever what promise well you can't keep so what if it's something that's like out of your hands you're like hey you know what I'm sure money's involved too right there are we smart enough not not to make that promise I wonder okay give me some principles what's what are you looking for when you're in the negotiation when you what's what's the first thing you do the from the initial conversation what are you saying to get things rolling and how are you emotionally during that process what what's how does this whole thing work yeah well um you know we had a phrase what's it gonna take to get the bad guy out what's it gonna take to make a deal mm-hmm they're gonna tell you if you let them so I'm gonna be deferential I'm gonna get you to drop your guard mm-hmm I'm gonna get you talking and you're gonna tell me what we need to make the deal and because it came out of your mouth you kind of want to make that deal mm-hmm and all I get it all I got to do all I gonna do I mean there's great power in deference mm-hmm ridiculous power in deference so if I'm deferential you're gonna feel powerful you know one of the secrets to gaining the upper hand and a negotiation is given the other side the illusion of control I'm not gonna back you into a corner I'm not gonna I'm not going to accuse you we didn't know back then exactly how powerful the emotional buttons that we were pushing were you know we know now from brain science how you wired we just we just we were we were taught how to sort of deactivate negative emotions if I can deactivate negativity you're gonna be drawn towards me your negativity is what causes your guard to be up your negativity stops you from collaborating your negativity stops me from having influence with you if I can deactivate that everything changes and you know we thought it was hostage negotiation back then but these days now we have neurosis we have a number of other things it's just human interaction we were just applying emotional intelligence just human interaction it's what is that what does that consist of though I mean is it is it tone of voice is it rhythm is it what type of questions are you asking I'm looking for those type of what are those tips those yeah well it starts with tongue because with tone of voice I'm actually like right now before you can process what I'm saying my tone is hitting your mirror neurons and if it hits your mirror neurons that it actually starts a chemical change in your brain I can begin to change the way your brain functions just with my tone of voice neuroscience backs that up I can slow your brain down with my tone of voice or if I smile at you it hits your mirror neurons it causes another chemical change of picture it picks your brain up and so when you're up on a stage what are what are some other key takeaways that you've learned in this 24 years of experience hospitalization what what are some other things that that people can apply you know let the other side go first I mean two people sit down if we're see if you knowingly sit with me you've got something you want to say you would never have sat down if you didn't mm-hmm you just want to know if I'm gonna listen now what you've got most of time is two people dying to have their say which means basically they're talking over each other or you talk while I don't listen and then I'll talk well you don't listen because you're thinking of what you want to say next let the other side go first it's I need that information I need what's on your mind you you may suggest an idea that I already had and the real secret to a negotiation is you know I wanna it's the art of letting the other side have your way so how do I do that I gotta get you talking and you and you let's say you say four things to me and one of them was something I already had in mind I'll say you know that one idea you had I love that idea and and you're gonna do it because it came out of your mouth but you gave me four things I picked out the one that I liked and I congratulated you on it uh-huh you're gonna run with that yeah you're not gonna let that fail because in your world that was your idea yeah you brought it to the table yeah and you know that's that's the whole bit about you know deference gathering information you know I need you to be vested another thing that I loved about the book as far as a techie just reminded me of it is I was think about my mom my mom we were younger she was the best when things got heated and angry it's like the more excited we got the the calmer she got yeah and the more in control she got exactly right yeah more is that another technique because I've ever that is a technique right yeah and she would she would be Anthony is she talking about my first name a lot of signal actors you do this calm down this is where it's gonna be and once that like you said that triggers that mirroring right there is that back to well that you know it's yeah it's it's hitting the mirror neuron it's a late-night FM DJ voice your mother was a natural at yeah it actually hits your neurons and it causes a change in your brain you know we know it now cuz the Newark but that was the way we were taught to talk to terrorists and kidnappers start out with that kind of a tone of voice and they would calm down we didn't know why it worked we just knew it did yeah so we said all right let's let's do it I mean you're your mother's got instincts out your mother sounding she had great emotional intelligence she oh yeah you know I have you know actually that's how it was on the football field where as soon as guys would come on people like hey who's the biggest trash talk you ever had and you don't when things are out there getting crazy and you would you'd see guys fight with each other again I was never that guy never I always is more the more excited you got or started talking trash to me I would just get real kind of quiet okay okay and it would just calm me down and it would make me play better yeah because when I did get excited that's when I was sudden I wouldn't play it lost your focus right my focus not worried about this and this it just helped me stay in control so I guess I can think of my mother for yeah yeah another one that you said you start with no stay yes what is that all about oh man that's that's another secret weapon I mean it's ridiculous huh first of all when people say no they feel safe and protected that's why people say no all the time uh-huh so stupid as it is all right change the questions if I try to get you to say yes I'm always going someplace always we've been taught that if somebody says hey is it me California yes you know you're gonna stop say what am i letting myself in for if I say yes where's this going yeah it's always going someplace it always is now it's not always meant to be malicious you know maybe you're just trying to confirm that something is true you know are we in Beverly Hills yeah your gut instinct is where's it's gone yeah which means you start to push back already as stupid as it is we just changed us questions and no questions and you'd be shocked that would you'd be shocked at what people comfortably say no - I mean shocked I I got it when I'm still teaching a USC kidney MBA class he's my boss he wants me to corral this client how do I negotiate with a client so nuts your negotiations with your boss that's where you start mm-hmm now he knows he's given you a tough task you might be in over your head for you got to go back to your boss and say you want me to fail and he's like I can't do that he's gonna blow up it's gonna be crazy a look didn't know makes people feel safe and protected doesn't matter what the know is well that's what's gonna happen he sends me an email that night he says I'm astonished at the result he'd actually been given the most difficult client they had because his boss was frustrated and basically want to put his best guy on it he thinks he's being set up to fail in point of fact they're grooming him for promotion he feels he's been walked into a trap when he asked his bosses do you want me to fail busted as a matter of fact we're thinking about promoting yet which blows his brains because he thinks he's been set up to be fired but then the mere act of saying no his boss goes oh yeah I really had put you in a tough spot huh so and he and it came up with a completely new strategy so it's it's it's insane it's utterly insane what people will comfortably say no - mm-hmm empathy versus sympathy yeah he's not simply you know empathy in in today's vernacular empathise become sympathies it's it's really kind of screwed us up in such bad ways because if empathy is sympathy then you're not supposed to have empathy for other people Ellen's got a video out there she's hanging out with George Bush ridiculous amount of criticism of her on the side yeah on from her from her camp yeah from the liberal side how dare you Ellen smart enough to know like we got to have understanding with everybody so empathy is just understanding now it's usually on the way to being sympathetic but I can have complete empathy with you and have no compassion and no sympathy it's just understanding where the other side's coming from it's a hostage negotiator how am I gonna have empathy sympathy for a guy from al-qaeda yeah but that's my job okay no matter how bad the person is on the other side of the table I gotta be able to develop a working relationship where I can get my way empathy is the fastest route if you divorce it from sympathy or compassion it's a compassionate thing to do but I use it because it works I like it because it is a compassionate thing to do yeah but I use it because it works and you can't fake that either right well you don't have to fake understanding uh-huh you know here's where you're coming from how do you negotiate with with your loved ones with with your partner with with your kids like what's what's some tactics that people can use for their for their kids let's start with down I got four kids 18 did 11 9 and 4 so it's different ranges I guess of mentality or does it even matter it's it's what some tactics I could use from my children yeah you know well negotiation great negotiation is really about helping the other side thank you mm-hmm I mean you would put your job as a parent is also to help your kids think well they're not thinking you gotta make them think yeah you know you know your kid comes up to you and say ask you something really ridiculous what you're gonna say it's not as important as how they answer its how it impacts them like your kid your kid once you know hey dad let me take the car mm-hmm and they don't even have a driver's license yeah or whatever right how am I supposed to do that with dad let me take the car it's not what their answer is it's what the thought process you made them go through to give you an answer the changes are dynamic when you say how am I supposed to do that and and and in a tone of voice who are like you you really want to know yeah as opposed to how am I supposed to do that you slipped a little kid yeah how am I supposed to do that you know you make them think plus actually it wears them out yeah part of your job you know and your kids wear you out you can wear them out right back so what about what kids says a big common one around the old Gonzalez household is I don't want to go to bed but whatever it's time to go to bed 8:30 at night I don't want to go to bed how do you get them to go to bed what's something they want that's coming up over the next couple of days okay so whatever we're going to the park tomorrow whatever yeah so you make what you want out of them to path to what they want like how am I supposed to let how we supposed to go to the park tomorrow I'll get a good night's sleep okay they're like ah I increased my chances of getting what I want tomorrow based on what you laid out to me today so you've done two things when you started wearing out you made him think you've started linking things together in their world and you put yourself in a position where if they don't do is they don't go to bed they're putting what they want in jeopardy uh-huh you know it's the same thing we did with terrorists kidnappers kid never says give us give us a million dollars well the hostage dies and I say how am I supposed to pay if I don't know you're gonna let him go then I go like oh it's interesting point because they want the money the hostage is incidental to what they want the money okay what about don't worry about it I'll let them you have to trust me on this one they never say that but even if they did they don't shoot it back and immediately huh but all right so like it's you you be the terrace let's go okay don't worry about it I'm gonna oh you have to trust me on this one how am I supposed to trust you because I'm a good guy but because of I don't want to go religion okay I'm gonna use insert religion because I'm this religion and I am a good person and you have to trust me you're a good person and you're threatening to kill my friend how does that work because my religion allows me to do that your religion allows you to do that well how do I know your religion allows you to let them go now right now what the really the point is not your answers as much as what I'm doing to you right now yeah because I'm keeping me thinking and you're keeping me you're keeping it open-ended right right right I'm not I'm not saying no what about with the boss I'm going there the classic one I'm pretty sure is I can't get a deadline in on or I want more money right like what about that let's start with that one what what which one what do you recommend for okay you give me something that it's impossible for me to get this done by that time you're asking too much of me all right so you know that no but he's like no I'm not you can do this and you will do this otherwise and and so there and this is this is one you can imagine it's gonna cause your boss to burst into flames but you're gonna say you want me to fail yeah okay you know because and because saying no is redic you know it makes people feel powerful people feel protected they feel safe I mean it's it's shocking what what people are will comfortably say no to I mean it's it's astonishing mm-hmm and so I'm gonna I'm gonna and on top of that and so you've given me an impossible task if you've given me an impossible task by a deadline all right let's go through this a little bit it's important to you you feel back you as a boss you feel backed into a corner you're not stupid and and you know in the point of fact what we think bosses do but they're not stupid you know I know I've given you something that's tough so I'm gonna say seems like one or a lot of pressure here you know it seems like you know there's some real consequences I I actually need to know what the consequences are if I don't meet this deadline so from and say instead of me saying well the consequences if I don't do this I'm gonna say it seems like there's some real consequences here if we don't get this done now I need to know whether or not there are external consequences or whether you need done on Friday because you want to relax over the weekend and then you want to review it on Monday because it's coming up the following Friday and you've got all these ridiculous deadlines be built into your head I need to know where what those are I need to get that out of you and so it seems like there's some real consequences here if we don't get this done if there aren't consequences and here's another insane thing you'll tell me because you're correcting me I mean you be the other thing that is shocking is what people are willing to say when they're correcting somebody else I will get more information out of you that you would otherwise not tell me if you give it to me as a correction because as human beings we love to correct other people mm-hmm and it feels so good to correct that will blurt stuff out that we should never blurt out hmm so an intentional correction is a really powerful thing to do hmm like you work out do you take supplements do you how's your sleep habits stuff like that all the cliche good habits that you can think of you know and we've had a couple of offline conversations about sauna recently yeah sona's that new magic try son is a new magic pill dry saunas and I'm hitting it hard regularly because you get you get in a you get an aerobic workout where you're sitting still in a song intermittent fasting but in the carbs good night's sleep even now you know Rhonda Patrick recently get turned on to the time restricted eating yeah so be more careful about what hours I mean all the cliche stuff I work out when I can but you know it's the entire package you know you got you got to hit every I intend to live for a very very long time in good condition so what kind of food do you were you what you what's your guilty pleasure food you know I um I'm still I'm a steak guy and I mean I love my steak I eat a lot of steak that's the thing you would pick like well I you know I'm a sweet guy not like cupcakes or now man I'm away from that bars or something like that and I'm like and I'll knock down occasional scotch or bourbon yeah I'm having fun you gotta try Modelo beer they're pretty good too but uh you know this is one somebody came on this show and they were talking about family traditions and this is a question I want to start asking everybody because I think it's good like is there anything that you did and you're growing up or something you do with your family do you have any traditions like that that you could recommend that kind of make it better and make you stronger and make you happy or anything like that yeah well you know I mean we Thanksgiving dinner was always it was always a really big one you know any sort of holiday family meal after we run an event we always have a dinner the whole crew to get together we sort of celebrate it but my mom is there and I'm like mom you want to say grace uh-huh and I didn't even ask the other guys how they felt about it uh-huh I just you know just just lay it out there so you know there's a connectedness thing I love that I consider myself to be very spiritual which is not always necessarily the same thing as religious yeah yeah I consider myself to be very very spiritual there with the rings of religious rings of different religions of different wins so it's like a little mix of everything you know there's everybody's everybody's trying to figure it out right now oh it's going to the same place anyway but a different name yeah which is fine too I love I love traditions and religions and all that stuff it's it's good stuff movies we talk about movies earlier what's what's your favorite movie why yeah well you know pulp fiction's one of my one of my all-time favorites I mean Tarantino stuff you know every 9in like he hits it out of the park uh-huh not every time yeah it was something it was something about you know the both bull this is Sam Jackson John Travolta characters in that not only will those did Tarantino write great parts yeah you know the guys hit it out of the park you can't any both you you know in in my view you know the the writer the director whoever's in charge of the film got to write a great part and they have to the fates line up that they got the right guy or gal and they interpreted in a way exactly the way they wanted it you know Sam Jackson character and that is is a phenomenal right the best are the way he talks and I've been saying this [ __ ] for years I didn't know what I meant what's uh who's one person in your life that beats you in negotiation Wow well yeah see I don't look at win lose oh yeah I look at somebody who schooled me you think schooled me I get schooled by a lot of a lot of people at different points in time like my old boss Gary Nestor who ran the unit he's got a book out there called stalling for time like I learned so much from that guy even after he retired every now and then I would call him on the phone I'd say yeah I just your words coming out of my mouth again like you know he taught us and I said it a thousand times before what I understood what it meant said we don't guarantee success we guarantee the best chance of success which now we tell people that we train a business like I'm not going to guarantee you that you're gonna make the deal I'm gonna give you the best shot at making the deal and making the best deal that doesn't mean you're gonna make it yeah we're gonna give you the best shot at it we guarantee that and you know Gary taught me a lot and you know that fine line because the first time I worked the case was somebody got killed I remember saying I've been saying for years we don't guarantee success it's just the best chance of success I mean by definition somebody's gonna get killed mm-hmm and when you know when when that train ran over me which is really selfish for me to say that ran over me cuz it wasn't a member of my family again guilt yeah you know was somebody was trying to help but wasn't my blood I realized I kind of been prepping for that for a few years mm-hmm how do you recover like that either you quit it you pick yourself up and in I picked myself up I was determined we had to get better and consequently from learning that I used I used to go after who've been in sieges where people gettin killed who didn't quit because if somebody gets killed you say to yourself I gotta I gotta raise the level of my game mmm it wasn't enough last time yeah and you want people to want to raise the level of the game yeah it's gonna be a tough side of what you - but obviously it's a baseball bat a headbutt yeah you know you pick yourself up you're done yeah final question what's one area of your life that you'd like to improve in that you're wide open to learning more about wow organization I'm a lover of spontaneity which by definition is unorganized yeah an adventure like my motorcycle if I jump on a bike I got no idea where we're going none I'm gonna get on the motorcycle find out but in business I Drive the people on my team crazy cuz I want to add them everything in and they want to know where we're going or how we're gonna get there so getting better at organized activity is is my struggle hmm Chris thank you for being on wide open buddy I appreciate it [Music]

Channel: Tony Gonzalez

Views: 28,930

Rating: 4.8422713 out of 5

Keywords: tony gonzalez, wide open, podcast, learning, leveling up, health, wellness, motivation, inspiration, self improvement, self help, personal development, interview, chris voss, fbi, hostage, negotiation, negotiator, never split the difference

Id: -WJPTohM_24

Length: 47min 5sec (2825 seconds)

Published: Thu Dec 19 2019