[music] Marcus Grodi: Good evening and welcome to
'The Journey Home.' I'm Marcus Grodi, your host
for this program. Those of you who have watched
the program for a long time do know that we have this
transition of men and women, who led by, awakened by
the Holy Spirit in a deeper walk with Christ come from often backgrounds that
are not all that dissimilar from the Catholic Church. And so, they have to throw
a couple of things aside and add a couple of new things
to the process as they become... Others of our guests come
in very large journeys where they have baggage that's a whole lot
different from what they're going to accept, not just becoming Christian, but, becoming
Catholic Christian. And I'm kind of wondering
if I might, if we might find out a little
bit of that in our story today, because, our guest is
Father Gaurav Shroff, former Hindu, priest
of the Archdiocese of Atlanta. Fr Gaurav Shroff:
Pleasure to be here. Marcus: Hello,
Father Gaurav. Fr Shroff: Absolutely. Marcus: It is great
to have you here. I'm really excited to hear
about your story, because, I don't know a whole
lot about your background in Hinduism or in India. Fr Shroff: Sure. Marcus: So, that's
fascinating to me. Fr Shroff: Absolutely. Marcus: So, let me
get out of the way and invite you to
take us way back. And let's hear
your journey. Fr Shroff: Great. Great. So, I was born in New Delhi,
the capital of India, the second son,
kind of a, sort of lately. My older brother's almost nine
years older than I am. Marcus: Okay. Fr Shroff: So, I come along, the
second son of a middle class, upper middle
class family from... My parents are from the state
of Gujarat, in the west. So, we're Gujarati, in the Indian sort of
taxonomy of regions. And so, they're both
practicing Hindus, fairly devout at that time.
And... Marcus: In fact, you said second
son in a middle class, in that part. You come from a
part where class... Fr Shroff: Right. So, I'm
talking about classes in the social economic sense. But, also we're
upper caste. So, you know, caste is
a huge reality in India. Now, I didn't...
I didn't know that. But, you know... Marcus: Yeah. Fr Shroff: Yeah. But, that's
just sort of... Marcus: And even
the second son idea... Fr Shroff: Right. I mean, the first son,
obviously, he's like... He's the main guy,
in a sense. Right? And my brother and I still,
still joke about that. I think... He has more hair
than I do. So, everyone
thinks I'm older. So... But, my
early childhood, actually, we moved to Washington DC, the
Bethesda, suburban Maryland area when I was maybe
about two-years-old, a year and a half old. So, my earliest memories
are of suburban Maryland and of snow and of watching
Saturday morning cartoons. So, this in the 70s,
mid-70s at this point. And I think
at some point, my dad was at that point
working for the World Bank. They're both... Both my
parents were economists, and both of them had a
career in service of the Indian government. So, in fact, before I was born for several years, my parents
had also lived in DC. And had moved
back to India. Then, my dad came back for
working on this job at the World Bank. So... Marcus: When they were here,
were they practicing Hindu? Was it? Fr Shroff: I think,
in the sense, they would always consider
themselves Hindu. Marcus: Right. Fr Shroff: And I think
the way that manifested... I don't remember anything
from that point... Marcus: Okay. Fr Shroff: But, I think it's just like you're part of
the Indian community and like, you know, your friends
are Hindu. And, you know... Marcus: So, any kind of
belief in God or faith or any of that stuff? Fr Shroff: At that point,
I don't remember anything. Marcus: Okay. All right. Fr Shroff: So, when we
were about seven, or... When I was
about seven or eight, we moved back to uh,
New Delhi. And that's sort of where most of my earliest memories
are coming from. Right? So, I have some, some
fragmented memories of DC. And then, New Delhi,
I remember when I got there, I didn't really
speak any Hindi. But, I picked it
up very quickly. At that age, apparently, you're
pretty decent at languages. And as far as religion goes, it
really, really manifested in, in when they were at family
events of certain kinds, like weddings especially. So weddings, there would
always be like a Puja, a religious service, all kinds of different
religious ceremonies. Indian weddings,
Hindu weddings last days. So, you know, for us,
for the kids, it was time to get together with
the cousins and hang out and, you know,
create a ruckus. And then, you know, we'd
go and participate in these things just because
it was like, you know, this is what you did. I have one early memory
in Delhi of going to... It's a famous temple on the,
then of the outskirts of Delhi. Who knows where it is now. It's called the
Bhairon Mandir. But again, I don't even
know which god it was to. But, as far as
going to temple, that was never a regular thing
for my parents. Marcus: Okay. Fr Shroff: So,
That was the sort of childhood understanding
of religion. Most of my understanding
of Hinduism I got from my grandmother, the only grandparent I knew
then, my dad's mom. My grandfather died
before I was born. So, as is very common in
Indian culture, she would basically go and
stay with her sons. She had three sons,
five daughters. And so, she would split
her time between her house. And then, for part of the year,
she would be with my father, and then, with
one of my other uncles. Right. And so, when she
came, she would... I remember early in
the morning, she'd wake up. And she had a little,
little shrine where she'd set up an image of Krishna
on the form that is, he's worshipped in Gujarat. And so under a former title..
It's [Hindi], I'm not even sure
what that means. But, that image of Krishna
is actually the earliest picture in
my mind for God. So in fact, most of the
times when I think of God, the first thing unconsciously
that comes up is that picture from my
grandmother's little shrine. And she would wake up
every morning and spend about like about like
45 minutes, an hour in, in saying these
various prayers and, you know,
rituals and so on. So, that's really kind of
what I saw like someone devoutly living out some
kind of a life of worship. Marcus: Would you, as a,
if you look back, as that young seven,
eight-years- old... Fr Shroff: Right. Marcus: ...would you have
seen yourself as someone that, that believed
there was a God? Fr Shroff: I think so, in
a vague sense, in a vague sense, absolutely. I went through a kind of a
teenage atheist phase at some point, I think. I don't know if
everyone does. But, I certainly did. For my dad and my mom,
never talked about religion, about God or anything in any
kind of a way that I remember, certainly not at that age. And the other knowledge
of Hinduism I actually got from a series
of comic books. They're very, very
popular in India. It's a title known as
Amar Chitra Katha, which is, which translates to
like 'Immortal Picture Tales.' And it's these stories of the
various Indian legends. You know, one is the
Mahabharata and the Ramayana and two great epics. So, they're different
parts of those stories that are in comic
book form for kids. And they were
a lot of fun. And he had stories of the
different gods and goddesses. And they were very,
very ecumenical in the sense of you had a story
of the life of Mohammad. That was part of this, the story of the life of
Jesus Christ as well. So, the earliest
actual time that I read the story of the
life of Jesus Christ... So, I might have been
8, 9, 10-years-old, was through this comic book,
this Indian comic book series. Marcus: Well, you know,
it's funny, when you use the word
comic book, we immediately get this
impression of this low-level literature. Fr Shroff: Right. Marcus: But, we Catholic parents
have a lot of comic books of the Bible story. Fr Shroff: Correct. Right. Marcus: That's how my middle
son, who's now a priest... Fr Shroff: Right. Marcus: ...first
learned the Bible, from reading from cover to cover
a comic book Bible. Fr Shroff: Right. I know. So, it's clearly a concept
that's universal, I guess... Marcus: Right. Right. Fr Shroff: ...you know. It's a
way to pass on your stories to your children. But beyond that, again, my parents never really
talked about religion in any kind of a formal way. My father was very
musically inclined. And he had
studied in London. He went to the London School of
Economics in the 1950s. And he loved Western
classical music. And so, growing up,
which he and I, that was one of the places
where we bonded, both Indian and
western music. We would listen to it. He had this collection
of vinyl records. In fact, I literally just
had them shipped from India, so that I have them now. I'm going to sort
through them. And we would spend all
this time listening to music. And it was through music,
actually, first that I kind of came across
the Catholic Church. So, just fast-forwarding
a little bit. We moved from New Delhi to a western Indian City
of Ahmedabad, where my dad got a different
kind of a work. He was a professor of
economics at a very famous School of
Management. And then, we moved to Bombay,
now known as Mumbai, where he edited one of India's
largest financial journals. I mean, he was pretty well-known
economist in circles. Marcus: Okay. Fr Shroff: And then, it was
either in Ahmedabad or in Bombay that I discovered like
just this, the musical heritage of
the Church through recordings, through compact discs. I... From the age of
about 9 or 10, my parents decided I had some
kind of musical talent. So, they got a
tutor for me. And I was... I had music
lessons, vocal lessons in Hindustani,
north Indian classical music. It was fun. But, I never really... It was just one among many
other things that I did. I never really
gave myself to it. But, I certainly
enjoyed music. And then, when I
discovered this dimension of the music of the
Church, which is specifically
Gregorian chant and polyphony, the way I describe it now is
it intrigued me and it really pierced me
with its beauty. And nothing like that... I had experienced
nothing like that... Marcus: That's what I
was wondering, is there anything like that
in your culture? Fr Shroff: No. And Indian music is, famously, it doesn't have
harmonies. Right? Marcus: Right. Fr Shroff: It very melodic. And it's very
actually creative, like the whole idea of, like if you go to a Hindu,
Hindustani classical concert, is the artist expresses a
particular emotion or a particular quality through... It's sort of like jazz,
through improvisation. Right? So, there's a lot
of creativity. But, it's very much the
single artist and he's accompanied and
assisted by instruments to back his voice up. Marcus: And the Americans my age
will remember Ravi Shankar. Fr Shroff: Yeah.
Ravi Shankar would be a great example of that. But, you don't really have
choirs in Indian music where you have different
people with different voices, each contributed something to
produce as a larger whole, at least not in my
understanding. And again, and I've never
studied this in any formal way. Marcus: Yeah. Fr Shroff: So, I'm
coming across this... By this time, I'm a teenager,
very shy, awkward introverted. I don't have too
many friends. But, I love reading. I live in my head. And I love music. And so, I come across these, this musical heritage of
the Church, Gregorian chant and
Christian polyphony really, like, you know,
Palestrina, Thomas Tallis. And so, I find these
compact discs. Some of them were
vinyl records. This is... By this time, we're like in the late 80s
and early 90s, I guess it must be...
That's when CDs came around. Right? Marcus: Right. Fr Shroff: And so, I had this
desire to learn more about what, what produced this. Where does this
music come from? So, you know, in the CDs
and the liner notes, you have all the texts, like
most of the texts of the Mass. They are texts of different kinds of
liturgical things basically. And they have
Latin and English. And so, I have a
thing for languages. So, I went out... I remember
going to a used bookstore and getting a copy of
'Wheelock's Latin' Marcus: 'Wheelock's.' Fr Shroff: ...and
going through it. And I was like, all right. I'm going to learn,
I'm going to learn Latin, so I can start following a
little bit of what this is coming from. And something about that
from there, it just sort of... It just sort of deepened my
desire to learn more about the world that produced this. Right? At this point, I think
it was largely still aesthetic. It was still very
much aesthetic. Marcus: It wasn't so much
the words. Fr Shroff: Right. It was the impact that
it was having on me. And I mean, I remember
like just in the evening, listening to this music, there
was a peace and a tranquility as you listen to some
chants and polyphony, there's this one particular
piece by Thomas Tallis about Pentecost, like it says,
"Loquebantur variis linguis," "They spoke with,
in various tongues." And I was just... I was
fascinated and captivated by it. Right? And my father would listen
to some of this music with me. He's more, was more into
instrumental music, like, you know,
symphonies and concertos and that kind of stuff. And he didn't quite understand
all of this choral thing. And so, I decided that,
you know, I needed to study this more. From about the
Fifth Grade on... So, we were still
in Ahmedabad. And then, throughout the
rest of my education in India, I was enrolled
in Catholic schools. Marcus: Well,
wait a second. First of all, our guest
is Father Gaurav Shroff. Right? Fr Shroff: Right. Marcus: How'd that happen? I mean... Fr Shroff: Oh,
that's very common. Marcus: Oh, okay.
All right. Fr Shroff: So Catholic, the
Catholic Church in India is known for a couple of things,
for healthcare. The Church provides
healthcare in a variety of different institutions. I was actually born in
a family, in a hospital at Holy Family Hospital,
in New Delhi. Right? I told my parents
later that was a sign. Right? That was a... There was a
prophecy there. But, the other thing the Church
is known for is education. And in India, church run schools, they're
called 'Convent Schools,' even, they may be boys and
girls and so on. They're prestigious. They're considered very, very
good quality education. And everyone wants to get their
kids into a Catholic school. Marcus: Okay. Fr Shroff: And the
Indian elite... My parents are
definitely from that class. Right? You know, they were
working in the government. They were...
My father worked for, in the ministry with the
former Prime Minister. And his boss then became, later became Prime Minister
of India. So, it was kind of the,you know,
the elite of the country. Everyone, everyone wants to get
their kids into Catholic school. So, from Fifth, in Fifth Grade,
I was enrolled at St Xavier's Loyola Hall,
in Ahmedabad, run by the Jesuits, by the
Society of Jesus. And I was very quickly
recruited into the school choir. And what I remember
about that... There's two memories. One, every morning
we'd get there. And in the principal's office, we would sing some kind of a
hymn over the microphone that would go out to
all the classrooms. And it was, it was... There were nothing
specifically Christian, very generic hymns about like,
I remember, "God is so good," or something very,
very simple. Right? But, I do have another
memory from around that time where we were asked
to sing for a Mass, a First Communion Mass that
was held at the school. So, I don't know
the circumstances. Obviously, there's a family
maybe connected or close to the priests who decided to have
their First Communion of their children at this Mass
in the school hall. And so, we provided
the music for the Mass. And all I remember from
that is that, that we couldn't
receive Communion, because, we were not... The non-Christians
were not, you know. I don't even remember
what we sang. Right? So,that was...
So, you had... So, fifth, sixth and seventh
grade Jesuit education. And then, when you
move to Mumbai, I was enrolled in
Campion School, which is again, one of the very,
very well-known schools to finish my schooling, which would be at,
ends at 10th Grade. Right 8th, in the
English system. You have 10 years, and then, you
have two years of high school, 11th and 12th to finish your 12
years of school. So, that was... That was all in
Catholic schools. And so... Marcus: Religious
education? Fr Shroff: No. The non-Catholics
were not taught Catechism. That was very much... Marcus: Ah, okay. Okay. Fr Shroff: ... very
much part of a thing. We were taught something
called Moral Science. It sounds about as
interesting as that. Right? I mean, It was like
some kind of introduction to ethics or
something. I don't remember
a darn thing. And, you know, and we
would all roll our eyes, because, like, it's
not a serious topic. Because, we didn't really
have an exam in it. Right? And so, everything else you're
going to be examined in. And so, like you know,
I don't even remember. We just goofed off and... Right? But, I know that the
Catholic children in the school, they would go off
to 'Catechism,' right, to religious education. So... Marcus: That does sound
kind of like an oxymoron. You completely goofed off in
the Moral Science class. Fr Shroff: Right. I know. Exactly. But, you know, the values
that I got from my family, from my father,
especially, looking back, very much virtue, honesty. India, there's levels of like
small kinds of things, any kind of involvement with
government bureaucracy involves greasing
palms and stuff. My father would
never do that. He is known... I mean,
he was known... He's the head of the family,
the patriarch. He was known as being
upright as a man of his word. And so, well before anything
Christian came on the scene, the idea of to be a good,
virtuous man, that's what I
learned from him. And yeah. Marcus: Which speaks to the
evidence of natural law and... Fr Shroff: Absolutely. Very much so.
Very much so. Marcus: Yeah. Fr Shroff: And now, I mean,
I think India is influenced, has been influenced by,obviously
has been by Christianity. Over the centuries, during the
colonial period and even before. So, a lot of the sort of
Christian values of the dignity of
the individual... The dignity of all human beings.
That's very much seeped in. If it is seeped in, it is
seeped in from Christianity. Marcus: Okay. Fr Shroff:
Hinduism as such. I mean, you've got this
ancient system that, that, I mean, basically you have
a whole class of people that is treated as sub-human. Marcus: Yeah. Right. Fr Shroff: Yeah. So anyway. But again, in my experience,
that was just not evident. But again, I come from a
prosperous, upper caste, upper class Hindu family. So, we're kind of on the top of
the pyramid. All right. Marcus: All right. Fr Shroff: Where caste
manifested itself... I remember when we were in
Delhi, there was a... You know, we had different
domestic help. Right? So, there was a lady
who'd come every day to clean the bathrooms. And then, when my
grandmother was at home visiting with us, she would have to come
through the back door. She couldn't come
through the front door. Marcus: Oh, the, the... Fr Shroff: The
cleaning lady. Marcus: Yeah. Fr Shroff: And I
asked my mother. It was like,
"Why is that?" Like, why is she...
Like, you know, why is when Grandma is here, Like, your grandma
would be upset if we let her
through the front door. And I'm like, "But, why?" She is a... I forget which...
I think she called a Dom, which is a kind
of a lower caste. Right? So, I'm like, "Well,
what does that matter?" And my mother was like,
I think it was something like, "It doesn't, but we just got to
keep your grandma happy, right?" Because, that wouldn't
just not be... So, I mean, that's where
I sort of understood like this whole sort of built-in,
baked-in stratification. Right? Which I didn't
normally experience. Marcus: Kind of reminds me
a little bit of America... Fr Shroff: Oh yeah. Marcus: ...after the
revolution when we were breaking away from
the English way of understanding the
family and culture, to American way, there would be
older folk that were... Fr Shroff: Still. Right. Marcus: ...still
holding the old way. Fr Shroff: Correct. Right. I mean, think about,
think about more recently, like Jim Crow and
segregation... Right? Marcus: Yeah. Fr Shroff: Now, the same,
similar kind of a thing. Except, this is within...
This is not a racial thing. This is a caste thing. Right? Marcus: Yeah. Okay. Fr Shroff: So, yeah. So, that sort of was my
experience of Hinduism. I never studied
anything formally. I think at some point I
read the Bhagavad Gita. And I'm not sure
it did much. And that's... I mean,
it's a profound work. It really is a
profound work. But, at least at that point, it
wasn't something that I was... I was open to, I guess. I have another sort
of a religious memory. And again, this is... There are Hindus who are
deeply devout. And I have family members
who are very, very Hindu. So, it's not really a knock on
their religiosity. But, I remember just the way the
religion manifested itself. When my brother...
When he graduated and got admission into the
Indian Institute Technology, which is, again a very, very
prestigious university union. He was going to go study,
study to become an engineer, which is like, you know, most
desirable thing that you want for your son, that they become a doctor,
an engineer. Right? And so, my father, at my
grandmother's house, in his ancestral town,
held what's called a Katha, which is a kind
of a Hindu... It's... Katha literally
means like a story. But, it's a retelling of
a particular kind of story from the life
of lord Krishna. I'm not sure. But, it involved a variety
of different religious rituals. And I was 10-years-old. And I remember sitting
there and the priest, the Pandit, he would... There was something
that he would recite. And for everything
that he recited, we had to put in one grain of
rice into the, into the fire. Right? And it lasted a while. And for a 10-year-old,
this is like... I mean, this is, this
is soul crushing stuff. Right? And of course, I mean, you
did it because, I mean, this is... This
is what you do. When my parents built the
house that they retired into, they had what's
called a vastu puja, which is vastu is similar
to feng shui. It's like the Indian feng
shui of like direction and proper, like calibration
of the house. And so, there's a particular
prayer you're formed to either appease
the gods or something, to inaugurate your house. And again, there
were similar rituals. Marcus: Well,
you knew that. You go bless
people's houses. Fr Shroff: Right. I do. Right. Absolutely do. So again, the
natural religion. Marcus: Yeah. Fr Shroff: They're all of
these things where, all of these different
things where, the human heart wants to
acknowledge our helplessness, and at the same time ask favor, protection, prosperity
from whatever power, however, understood. Marcus: Right. Fr Shroff: So,
aesthetic, music... Marcus: And you escaped
a Jesuit school without learning a bit
about the faith. Fr Shroff: I joke with
my Jesuit friends that despite their best efforts,
I became a Christian. They did not talk much about
Christianity per se. I think part of
that may be... Again, I don't want
to describe motives. Part of that, I
think was just... It's a very
sensitive topic... Marcus: Yeah. Fr Shroff: ...culturally,
politically in India conversion. There's always been a
sort of a charge labeled against the
colonial powers, as well as missionaries that you are here to
destroy our culture. Gandhi, Mahatma Gandhi
was famously against conversion. And he had... You know, one of
his close friends was, I think a Methodist minister,
C F Andrews, Deenabandhu Andrews,
as he was known as. And they had all these
like conversations about it. And so, the idea, again,
at this point, the idea that I would change my
religion really didn't, wasn't on the horizon. But, I was being drawn
into a new world, if you will. So, back again to music and to learning about the
Catholic Church. So, I would just
go to the library and just check out books of
Catholic history, of anything that I could
find my hands on. When I finished school,
and then, did 11th and 12th, which was in India, it's
called junior college. I did that at a college. And so, it's a different...
Like your life is different. You don't wear a uniform. You can choose
to go to class. You can skip class. You're of more adult. And it was there that
I really sort of formed friends and came out
of my shell socially. And 11th and 12th Grade, a lot of my friends
were Catholic and church going Catholics
at that. And so, here I am
learning... I have this desire to learn
about the Catholic Church. And here there's
Catholic people. Right? So, I started talking
to them and just sort of hanging out with them. And then, I decided like,
maybe I should go to Mass. Right? And by this point, I had
studied the Mass as I had learned it from all of
these musical pieces. I knew the Curia, the Gloria,
Agnus Dei, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, all of that. And I had found in the
library at San Xavier's College, old missals that had the Mass in
English and in Latin. So, when I first came to
understand the Mass, I knew what was the Tridentine
Mass from these old missals. I'd never actually
been to a Mass. And so, the first
time I went to Mass, it was the 15th of August. And I think it was
the first year. I had finished high
school at this point. It was the first
year of college. It was a holiday in India. It's Independence Day. And so, I decided to... And there was an early
morning Mass at the college. And there was some kind of
a college festival going on. And so, I decided I'd go and,
you know, participate in that. But, I went to Mass
in the morning. It was pouring
cats and dogs. The Mass was in English. I didn't know any
other responses. There was no music. And I remember Father
Simon talking about, something about Noah's
Ark and the flood. Because, it was raining.
It's the monsoons. But then, I said, "Okay,
I'll start going more to Mass. And then, at Christmas, we went to, my dad and I
went to midnight Mass... Marcus: Your father? Fr Shroff: ...at the church
that was closest to us. Yeah. Because, he used to
go to church, I guess, periodically when
he was in England. So he said,
"I'll come with you." And so, we went to midnight Mass
at the cathedral, which is the, and it
was a beautiful service. There was beautiful music. And it was great.
And, yeah. So, that continued
for a little bit. And then, the following
year, at Easter, my Catholic
friends were like, "If you like going to Mass, you should go to
the Easter triduum." So, I said, "Okay." So, I looked up the times. And I showed up on Holy
Thursday at the Cathedral of The Holy Name
in Bombay. The Mass is held outdoors
behind the cathedral in a field, because, the cathedral was
fairly small. And you have tons and
tons of people who come. And I remember...
It was interesting, I remember listening to the
story of the Passover and in the readings for
Holy Thursday. And then, you had the
Cardinal Archbishop of Bombay, clearly an important man, on the
stage of the altar, washing the feet of 10, 12 men,
sort of getting down. That was to me,
that intrigued me. It's like...Because, you
don't lower yourself. So, you know,
I was like, wow. This is interesting. I mean, again, going back to this
stratification of society... Marcus: Yeah. Fr Shroff: ... where we lived in
Bombay in the condo building, there was an elevator for
the residents, and then, there was an elevator
for the domestic servants. Right. So, you don't even mix,
right, this, this... Again, just...
It's a different world. And the next day I said,
"Okay, I'll come back." It was Good Friday, a service of the Passion at
3:00 in the afternoon. And I knew at this point
I can participate in Mass. I can say the prayers.
I can sing. I don't receive
Holy Communion. Well, the Good Friday service
has the veneration of the Cross. Right? So, the veneration of the
cross is when, you know, you go and genuflect
and kiss the cross. And I said, "Well,
I can do this. It's not Communion." And when I did, I genuflected
and kissed the Corpus and made the sign of the cross. When I got up, I had
tears in my eyes, because, I heard inside,
I mean, it was the Lord. And He spoke to me. And He said,
"I died for you. I died for you." Marcus: We're
going to pause. Fr Shroff: Right. Marcus: Let's pause there. Fr Shroff: Okay. Marcus: Because,
there's the moment. Fr Shroff: Right. Marcus: Because, it seems
to me up until this point, you're examining this like
you examined anything. Fr Shroff: Correct. Marcus: You know. Fr Shroff: Yeah. Marcus: But, this
is different because. Fr Shroff: Yes. Marcus: We'll pause there... Fr Shroff: Yeah. Marcus: Father Shroff.
And we'll come back. Let's come back
in a moment. Hear the rest, what this
event was all about... [music] [music] Marcus: Welcome back to
'The Journey Home.' I'm your host,
Marcus Grodi. And our guest is
Father Gaurav Shroff. And before we get
back to the story, I just want to remind you of our
website, <u>chnetwork.org</u>. As Father had mentioned,
he had asked me the question whether we had very many guests
on the program would come
from other religions. And, of course, we do,
over the last 24 years. But, if you go to the website,
you'll see lots of conversion stories that
also show men and women coming to the Catholic
Church from atheism, from nothing, and of a great
variety of religions. And they're
fascinating reads. Just like the program's
fascinating every week. So, that's <u>chnetwork.org</u>. All right, Father Shroff, we
paused you when you had grace. Fr Shroff: Yeah, when
there was that encounter, The way I say that the Lord
revealed Himself to me. Right? So, it was Good Friday. And I've, you know, just gotten
up from venerating the cross. Right? And the Lord says,
"I died for you." At some point, I remember
someone asking me, like, did you even know
what that meant? And I had a vague sense, because, I had started reading
the New Testament. Right? And so, the idea of
Christ dying for our
sins wasn't completely alien. Yeah. I had read that. But, my first reaction was
basically was like what just happened? Right? Who was that? Right. I was in a total like
everything like, wow. Like, this is real
kind of a thing. Right? And so, I remember walking
back, because, you know, I could take a bus or
I could have a nice 20-minute walk back to where
we lived from the cathedral. So, I walked back and
when I walked in, my dad looked at me and said,
"What's happened to you? Have you become
a Christian?" And I was like, "No." The story with my family was
like, it's the music. Right? It's the music. Well, but from that, from that
day on, that Good Friday on, I went to Mass every Sunday. And I think apart from illness,
I've never missed Mass. Right? So, every Sunday, it was
the Sunday evening Mass. Father Rock Almeida
was the rector. He'd give these fiery
sermons about the poor and, you know, social
justice and loving the poor, to a very wealthy,
you know, congregation. Right? So... And I don't know. So, a few weeks after that, I went to the cathedral in
the afternoon and I knocked on
the door and said, "I'd like to see a priest." And they ushered me in
to Father Rock's room. And I said, "I think
I want to become a Christian." And to be honest,
he was very taken aback. He asked like, you
know, where I'm from. And when he realized
I come from a sort of a very upper cast kind of
background, he was very taken aback. And he gave me
a book to read. And I'm sure very
well intention. It was an anthology of theology
edited by Karl Rahner, 'Sacramentum Mundi.' I couldn't get past
the first page. I had nothing.
I had nothing. Marcus: I'm not sure
anybody ever has. Fr Shroff: No. And so, like that's...Again,
you know, I really don't... I do remember that's
what he gave me. And I couldn't make
head or tail of it. But, what had happened
meanwhile over that past, I think the previous
summer that year in college, there was a group of...
Like this group, social group of
friends that have formed, very, very tight knit, and there was a couple of guys
there who were very serious about their faith
and were themselves discerning the priesthood at
that time. And so, I started
hanging out with them. And so, I started going
to Mass at their parish, which was also
a Jesuit parish. But, in the suburb's about
an hour away by train. So basically, Friday
evening after classes, I would disappear. And I'd be with them
the whole weekend. You know, we'd go to Mass. We'd talk about life at the
university and everything and just have this great
experience of friendship, fellowship and community
as a late teen. I think this happened
when I was 19. Right? But, from that point on, again, I started reading very
seriously. The 'Catechism' had
not yet come out. And I think it'd just
been published in French. But, it wasn't yet
out in English. So, there was no...
Like, I just... Any book that I could find that
I thought was interesting was sort of self-taught. No idea of Heterodox,
Orthodox, whatever. No. None of those
categories were there. Marcus: Catholic,
Protestant? Fr Shroff: It was
entirely Catholic. Marcus: Yeah. Yeah. Fr Shroff: I had a vague
idea about Protestantism. But I mean, I had never
really met a Protestant. So, it wasn't really... Marcus: Yeah. Yeah. Fr Shroff: ... on the radar. Every day after classes, I would go to the chapel
at the university, beautiful, the college, where, I went to that first
Mass that monsoon morning. And I would just sit there
and talk, talk to God and pray. The only prayer I knew was
the 'Gloria' for Mass, in Latin. And at some point, I learned
about the rosary. So, I started to pray the
rosary when I was on the bus. And so, just sort of all of
these different elements kind of on my own. And that continued. That continued for several
years through the rest of my college. I studied... I was studying
geology, you know. I love the science, geologist, sort of got a
historical element to it. It's the story
of the Earth. And again, a lot of these
friends were part of that, part of that program. And I basically sort
of at some point... If you had asked me,
I was like, "Yeah. I'm a Christian." Right? At some point, walking
along near a bus stop, I found a, someone's chain
with a crucifix, had obviously fallen off. And it was lying
there in the dirt. So, I picked it up
and I was like, all right. I guess this is a sign
from God for something. And it was a beautiful
little chain, beautiful little crucifix. And on the back, it said,
I still remember, "I'm Catholic.
Please call a priest." So, it was like in a case of
an emergency. Right? Yeah. So, I put that
around my neck. I would wear it. And my parents were like,
"Okay. This is fine. When your grandmother is
here, put that inside." Right? " She won't understand any of
this." Right? I remember that first Lent
that came up after that, I was like, oh.
I'm supposed to fast. And so, I thought that
meant not eating at all. And it didn't last very
long until I learned truly how the Church practices
or disciplined. But, I just really seriously
wanted to take all of this on. And I'm reading
the New Testament. The Old Testament was
tough to understand and just really,
with my friends, getting to know what Christian
life looked like. I discovered a set of
novels by an Italian author, Giovanni Guareschi,
or Guareschi. It's 'Don Camillo.' It's about the life of a
little parish priest in some remote corner of
Northern Italy, set in the 30s,
40s and 50s, I guess. And his sort of, his archrival is the local
communist party leader. So, it's Don Camillo
and Peppone. These are amazing, amazingly
Catholic short stories. It captivated me, this, the life that is
lived with Christ in the Church at the center. And... Yeah. So, that was... I recommend
Don Camillo to anyone. Marcus: Oh, interesting,
I've never read it. Fr Shroff: Yeah. Yeah. So, at some point, I
started talking to some of the Jesuits at
the college. And I do remember one of
them saying, "Well, you know, You don't really
have to convert. You know, you can be
a good Hindu and be a follower of Christ, and really, evangelization is
about everyone becoming the best sort of
Hindu, best Muslim." I was kind of...
It's like, okay. I mean, this is a priest. So, you know, this is what
the Church must believe. But, I didn't...
I was like, okay. And yet, I mean, The attitude of
like respect for all religions and recognizing the
goodness there. Marcus: Yeah. Fr Shroff: Again, that gelled
very much with me personally, with what I had
received from my parents, but really, actually with
the Hindu worldview, which really says,
God's too big. God's too big. He can't be confined
to one path. Right? Because, I mean, human beings
are human beings. So, there's a couple of
different ideas about religious diversity in
the Hindu mind, from my understanding. One is the idea of
national religion. So, if you're born into a
Hindu family, that's who God has
ordained for you. And like, you know, if you're born into a
Christian family, that's whom God has
ordained for you, like, it's God's
choice by birth. Because, so much else of your
life is determined by where you were born in the
social structure and everything. Marcus: Right. Fr Shroff: So, it stands
to reason. Right? So, the idea of
changing that and conversion outside of that
is sort of like, well, why would you do that? I mean, there are... Marcus: Going against
the will of God. Fr Shroff: Correct. Right. I mean, like, you know,
that's where you're put, like it's all idea of fate or
destiny or whatever it might be. Right? There's the ideas of
deeper devotion and conversion
within Hinduism. And there's different reform
movements that have happened, most of them laboring
against caste sort of with an
egalitarian view. Like there's the 13th, 14th century Bhakti Movement
of devotion, Sikh religion,
Sikhism. Right? That that is a response
against the caste as well. And Buddhism was
sort of a response and a reaction against caste. Buddha was...
Basically, I mean, the idea that everyone has access to the deepest
things of life and who you are and where you
were born didn't matter. So, there's the whole
different dimension there. And the other thing is, Hindus,
you know, in your home shrines, you would have a
variety of the gods. But, they would have a
picture of Christ or they would have a crucifix, like, you know, it's like
recognize God wherever. So, what I was getting
from some of the, my Jesuit priests and friends,
instructors, teachers, what gelled
with that was like, Yeah. God can be found
everywhere. Now, He's sort of revealed
Himself to me in this way. So, what does that mean? Right? So, for the next
several years, I sort of just
continued along with that and didn't really think much
about just growing in prayer, growing in virtue
and friendship. Yeah. And then, a few years later, one
of my closest friends, who at that point was very
serious about the Jesuits. He's happily married now. And not as a Jesuit now. He said, "You should
go on a retreat." And I was like, "Well,
what's a retreat?" I mean, I had heard
Catholics made retreats. So, he said, "Well, you know,
you go away for prayer." He'd already
arranged everything. It's like, "I've signed you up
already for this retreat. It's a four-day
silent retreat." I was like, "What?" And it was up in this
suburban retreat center, up in the suburbs of Bombay. It was led by a
Jesuit priest. He didn't tell me it was a
retreat for young men who were discerning
the priesthood. So, I was like, all right. So, he said, "You go ahead
and ask, you know, like what are you supposed
to do about baptism?" Right? And so, I said, "Yeah. I should, I should ask." Like, do I continue this way where I'm just like a Hindu
on the outside, just sort of participating in
the life of the Church to the extent that I can't. Or am I supposed to like,
become a Christian and follower of Christ
in every dimension? And so, I said, "I'll go there
with this idea as baptism what I'm supposed to do." And so, I went there. And I don't remember much
about the exercise or anything that they did. But, I do remember that
we prayed at night, like, they had the
Blessed Sacrament, pray in this little
Indian-style chapel. So, sitting down... And, of course, at this point,
I knew what the Eucharist was, I knew what the
Blessed Sacrament was, I knew that is
Jesus present. And I just knew in that moment,
praying there, I just knew
that God loved me. It was like that was
the most solid thing, this most solid
reality there was, that I am loved
and I'm precious. It was incredible. It was absolutely
incredible. And so, I said,
"Well, I love You too. Do with me what you will." Like, you know, sort of this
really sense of surrender. And I clearly have this sense, He said, "I want you
to be a priest. I want you to be My priest." And I was like, "What?" The second thought was, I guess
I should get baptized. So, coming out of
that retreat, I wrote a letter to my parents
and said, "This is not a hobby or
a passing thing." And I had what was perhaps the
first adult conversation with my father about like
meaningful existential things. And his basic position was, 'I'm envious of those
who have faith.' There's too much evidence with
evil in the world, too much evidence
against a good God. And in his experience, religion tends to hold people
back from progress, from growth and is a source of violence. I mean, India is known
for sectarian violence, especially between
Hindus and Muslims. "But, as long as this does
not interfere with your being a part of
our family and being, participating in family stuff
when we get together and you don't
become a Bible thumper. You know, If this is where
you're going to find meaning and peace, then, we have no objection. It was an incredibly,
incredibly, generous, generous thing to do. And so... Marcus: More
work of grace. Fr Shroff: I know. I know. Both my mom and my dad. So that over that next year,
I met with a priest regularly. He was a missionary,
Dutch priest, Mill Hill Missionaries. We went through like a whole
catechetical course, just the different
doctrines and everything. To his credit, had me read
'Humane Vitae,' which was a shocker. In India... I mean, the
whole thing in India, the 70s, 80s, 90s, was like,
we have too many people, over population, the family planning
is a virtue. You know, everyone... You know, my grandmother had
eight kids. But, my parents
only had two. Everyone I knew only had
two or one. Right? You know, there's...
This is a national virtue. Right? You know. And so, I was just like,
"What?" But, I was like, okay.
It makes sense. And I'm not sure at
that point, I internally accepted it. But, I knew there's like,
This is the Church. This is where Christ is. I'm like, I'm just
going to go with it. You know, whether it's not... Whether it makes sense
with me or not. I never had the sense that
I had to get everything intellectually right,
squared away right away. I just knew that this
is where Christ was. And I knew that I wanted
to participate in Mass. And I knew I wanted to receive
Him in the Eucharist. And so, at the end of that
year, I said, "Okay, you know, I think I'm ready for this." So, we chose the 15th
of August, 1994. And it was a private
ceremony that my parents... They were going
to come to it. They said, "We'll attend." I invited all my friends. There were Muslims there,
there were Hindus, there we Catholics of
about 20 of us. Our neighbors were a
Catholic couple that I knew. She was my godparent, Zelia,
Auntie Zelia. Still in touch with her. And this little Mass above
a little chapel, above the main sanctuary of
St Peter's Church, in Bandra, in Bombay, where I
was baptized, received Confirmation and
First Holy Eucharist. It was incredible. Marcus: Wow. Fr Shroff: And then,
soon after that, I came back to the US, because, that was always the
plan that I'd go to the US, to finish,
continue my studies, because, my
brother did that. That's what we... Again, it's
planned for you. Right. So... So, yeah. It was a... Marcus: But... But, the plan
wasn't the priesthood. But, that's what it
turned out to be. Fr Shroff: Well,
My mom said, "That's okay. Just don't become a priest." That's what she said.
"Just don't become a priest." And my dad basically said, 'Well, you're going off
to the US. You'll be there for a while, whether you decide to live there
or come back. That's up to you. We'll talk to the family here
and, you know, you're free to do what you
want there.' Right? My dad was the oldest son and
the head of the family. And so, basically, I think
the rest of the family was like, 'Well, if he's okay with this,
then, we're okay with it.' For the longest time, I'm not
very proud of this though. My basic attitude
was with my family, I just did not share
this part of my life. When I came to the US, I reached out to the
local campus ministry. And I was involved in the
life of the church right away. And the student groups and
the Newman Club, the story of eventually saying
yes to the priesthood, that's... The shortest version is... I mean, basically, I said, "I came to the US and discovered
American college life. And I'm like, yeah, hedonism. This is where it's at. Jesus on Sunday, and then,
you know, Friday is its own thing. So, for a while, let's just say,
I kind of compartmentalized. And I was like,
priesthood no way. And what I experienced in, at least in that point in campus
ministry since mid-late 90s was a Catholicism that was
itself very, kind of critical or suspicious of its own tradition. Right? And it's sort of not dissimilar to what the Jesuits
formed in me. And so, I think in the
Lord's mercy, He let that sort of
play out in its own way. What brought my intellectual
conversion really was... So, I studied for
a master's in Geology. And then, as I'm like figuring out like
what am I supposed to do, like, you know, what do I really
want to do with my life? And the answer always
came down to priesthood. And I was like, no. So, my compromise was like,
I'm going to get it... I'm going to teach. Because, I like teaching. I like people. I've determined this. And I'm good at it. And so, I'll get a Master's
in Religious Studies. And for all these things,
I got scholarships. Right? So, this is the University
of South Carolina. And I'll study the Bible, and then, maybe I'll do a PhD
and I'll teach. So, just... You get off
my back, Jesus. Right? And it was really through... In those studies, there was an
Eastern Orthodox professor who really first challenged me
on the philosophical assumptions that I had just about reality,
vaguely secular humanist. And then, it was the
writings of Joseph Ratzinger. And I remember reading
'The Ratzinger Report,' which is one of his
earliest interviews. Marcus: Yes. Fr Shroff: And
I was like, wow. I read the 'Introduction
of Christianity.' I mean, I read everything I
could find my hands on. Someone introduced me to
'The Theology of the Body' of John Paul. And suddenly, all of
this starts clicking. Right. Everything
starts clicking. Like, there is a beauty
here and a coherence and attractiveness
to what it means. And for the first time,
really in a while, I met people, both my age and
a little older, who were joyful,
committed Catholics, who lived the faith and wanted
to live to faith, and were committed to everything
that a Church taught. And so, I was like, yeah. So, I think...
It took a while. Eventually, it led to priesthood
through that. Marcus: Wow! We've got about
five minutes left. Fr Shroff: Okay. Marcus: ...my 1000 question. Fr Shroff: Sure. Marcus: But, one of them is,
if you were then to say, from your Hindu to
Catholic, Christian, what was the doctrine,
the belief that you found the most difficult or
the most uniquely significant to accept from your
Hindu background...? Fr Shroff: Correct. Marcus: ...as a Christian? Fr Shroff: Right. Actually, I think
a lot of it was... It's really not so much my, for me personally,
my Hindu background, as much as sort of,
I think the general secular, humanist, progressive worldview
that my parents had. They're fairly
westernized. Right? And they're progressives
in that sense. So, a lot of them was
like the moral teaching, especially around like,
Human Sexuality was one. And so, that I think for me, getting to that sense of intellectual conversion
understanding that was difficult. I think for the Hindu mind
though... And I know this, because, I've
talked with my mother after my father passed away. That was an opportunity to really talk at some deep level
with my mother about like... So I was like,
"Well, tell me, what do you believe
about life after death? And like, how do you know
it's true? And so on." Like, she listened. And she said, "Basically,
the one thing is, I don't know how you Christians
can claim that Jesus Christ is the only way." It's just God is too big. God can't be fit
into one path. So, the scandal
of particularity. Marcus: Oh. Fr Shroff: Right? And so, as I said, The Hindu
mind is willing to recognize the divinity everywhere in
everything. Right? One of my Jesuit
friends who joked, he's like, 'The Hindu
can recognize God in everything but his neighbor.' But, that was sort of
a bit of a quip, again, against the
caste system. Marcus: Yeah. Fr Shroff: But, even
that's not entirely true, because, he recognized
like, you know, the potential for
God in everyone. So, I think that
would be it, that... How can you say
there's only one way? Marcus: Oh. Shroff: And... Marcus: And we would say... Well, it reminds me of those
little bumper stickers I'd see, 'Coexist.' Shroff: 'Coexist.'
Right. Yeah. Marcus: I mean, that's
what was coming to my mind... Shroff: Correct. Marcus: ...as you were
describing Hinduism. Shroff: Right. So, the relativism that
we see of sort of modern western
secularism is very much a religious
relativism, the story of like, you know,
the blind man and the elephant that I think Ratzinger used in
one of the things. It's actually a
Buddhist tale, but, comes from Hinduism or the different paths
leading up the mountain. That's also very Hindu
imagery of the different paths, like they're different men, different kinds of quality
of people, and so... And again, there's a
kernel of truth there, like, everything isn't
a cookie cutter in the Christian life either. But again, God
can't be confined. Marcus: Is there anything
like the Incarnation? Fr Shroff: In Hindu
understand... So, you know, you have the gods
who become incarnate and take human form. Marcus: Okay.
So, that's... Fr Shroff: Right. It's more like the angelic
appearances of the Old Testament. Marcus: Okay.
All right. Fr Shroff: They
take on human form. But, it's not God Himself
coming in... Marcus: So, the Incarnation
isn't the particularity that would narrow Jesus down versus
all the other.... Fr Shroff: Right. Marcus: What about
'He is risen?' Fr Shroff: I think
that might have some... That might have
some potential. But, I think for Hinduism,
for Hindus, it would be an experience of the
Risen Christ in a way, in a way that that happened
with me, that's like, well, this is how God is now,
has called me. Intellectually, I know
there's some guys. But, they're
Indian-Americans, who I think, through there for more in the
Western, sort of a milieu, who've had really read
themselves into the Church. But, I think for those in India
or from a Hindu background, it has to be that
experience of God. Marcus: Well again, like
for you, there was music. Fr Shroff: Yeah. Marcus: There was reading,
there was examples, there was all that.
But, in the end... Fr Shroff: Yeah. Marcus: ... you had this
work of grace that touched you in
kissing the cross... Fr Shroff: Right. Marcus: ...or just
different things. So, that's what we pray
for in our evangelization. Shroff: Amen. Marcus: We tell and show. Shroff: Correct. And then, the
Holy Spirit, boom. That nuclear bomb of grace. Right. Marcus: So, You're finishing up
your studies now on Canon Law? Shroff: So, I'm about
half way through. And I'm also full-time
pastor of a mid-sized bilingual
congregation, English and Spanish, and a university
chaplaincy as well. So, a few hats there. Yeah. And it's great.
It's a great life. It's amazing life. Marcus: Well Father, it's such a great privilege to
have you here. As we close, I wonder
if we could have your blessing. Fr Shroff: Absolutely.
Absolutely. To you, everyone here and to
anyone who watches this, The Lord
be with you. Marcus: And with
your spirit. Fr Shroff: Through the
intercession of Saint Joseph and the Blessed Mother, Blessed Mary,
Mother of the Church, may the blessing of
Almighty God, the Father
and the Son and the Holy Spirit come down on you and
remain with you forever. Amen. Marcus: Thank you Father. Fr Shroff: Thank
you Marcus. Marcus: What a great
privilege to have you here... Fr Shroff: What a joy. [music] Marcus: ...and to hear about
your journey and your background. And audience,
I say every week, I really do pray that Father
Shroff's journey is an encouragement you and
especially, if by chance, there's are some watching
from Father's background. We pray for you to have
the fullness of the faith. God bless you.
See you next week. [music]
